AuthorTopic: Ron Paul on the American Empire  (Read 14159 times)

Offline g

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2015, 04:06:08 PM »
Free-market environmentalism
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"Free-market environmentalism is the political position that argues that the free market, property rights, and tort law provide the best means of preserving the environment, internalising pollution costs, and conserving resources."

Okay. Like, yeah.  Right.  ::)

I believe it.

Offline JRM

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2015, 04:15:43 PM »
So? He has plenty of company in this view. What's the problem besides the fact he doesn't agree with your view on the matter?

No one who has ever given any serious thought to the difficult problem of how to prevent "Business" from "externalising" most of its true costs (onto the natural world and future generations) has ever concluded that what is needed is yet more "freedom" in the marketplace.  To do so amounts to saying, "The best way to put out a fire is to pour gasoline on it."

"Free market environmentalism" is a fraud, a hoax ... not a legitimate intellectual position on how to take care of people or the planet.  In other words, it's ridiculous on the face of it. Not to be taken seriously at all!

All that said, I happen to be a left libertarian (with a lower case l).  But left libertarianism depends on old fashioned human values like honesty, kindness, caring for one another ... all because it's good for the soul and good for life.  Without that, left libertarianism is but another pipe dream.

I happen to think it is not.  But we've got to figure out how to pull our collective heads out of our collective back ends.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2015, 04:18:25 PM »
Free-market environmentalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Free-market environmentalism is the political position that argues that the free market, property rights, and tort law provide the best means of preserving the environment, internalising pollution costs, and conserving resources."

Okay. Like, yeah.  Right.  ::)

I believe it.

WHAT?! 

forgoodness sake, Why?
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline g

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 04:31:12 PM »
Quote
All that said, I happen to be a left libertarian (with a lower case l).  But left libertarianism depends on old fashioned human values like honesty, kindness, caring for one another ... all because it's good for the soul and good for life.  Without that, left libertarianism is but another pipe dream.

I happen to think it is not.  But we've got to figure out how to pull our collective heads out of our collective back ends.

Makes sense to me JRM, my feeling is we have to distinguish between good and bad and not group everything.

Monsanto to my mind appears a different evil sort of enterprise than let's say a Barnes and Noble, but you appear to lump them all together.

Likewise wealthy folks a Steve Jobs and a Leona Helmsley reside in different positions on the morality scale in my view. The thousands of other examples in both corporations and Super rich make generalizations a big mistake in my view.

There is also the fact to consider that some corporations provide good jobs, fair wages and benefits, and others do not.

What good would it do to hurt them in a witch hunt to get the bad ones?

Offline JRM

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2015, 04:40:05 PM »
If "free market environmentalism" (FME) is adequately explained here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_environmentalism - I fail to see how it even begins to make sense as a legitimate approach to caring for people and the planet (as contrasted with the pocket books of corporations, the rich, etc.). 

The gist of the argument for FME is that there is  (a) some sort of terrible weakness in property rights which, (b) if addressed in such a way to increase the power and/or strength of property rights will significantly address the world's environmental / ecological issues for the better.

This completely misses the fact that one of the most basic definitions of property is the right of the individual or corporation to DESTROY that which he, she or it owns.  ... and that this is exactly what lies at the beating heart of all of the major environmental/ ecological problems (and most social problems as well).

For example, let's say XYZ corporation owns a hundred thousand acres of forest. Its share holders want to reap profit, as to the rest of 'em, and so the only thing to do is to destroy the forest in order to turn it into ... well, money.

How will strengthening the property rights of XYZ corporation result in protection of the forest?

How will strengthening the property rights of Mr. Bazillionbucks  or GiantMegaCorporation result in a slowing down of fossil fuel "production" and consumption?

I will counter the argument that improved individual or corporate property rights should improve things environmental with the argument that only the improvement of the right of the commons, the right of the common folk... of everyone... to hold all goods in common ... for the common good of all beings over all time ... could have the effect of improving things environmental and ecological.

I will further argue that private property rights are the main cause of ecological, environmental and social degradation and decay.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2015, 04:47:43 PM »

There is also the fact to consider that some corporations provide good jobs, fair wages and benefits, and others do not.

What good would it do to hurt them in a witch hunt to get the bad ones?

In one aspect, I agree with you in principle. But another principle intervenes.

I agree that there are good individual rich people, who are very well intended AND who do good for others.

And I agree that some corporations are nearer to harmless, maybe even good, while others are horrors.

But, in principle, the very design of corporations -- in general -- tends overwhelmingly to drive them in a direction which maximizes profits while externalizing true costs.  So called "top management" has no way of altering this course. A CEO who does not maximize profits at the expense of people and the planet over the long haul will, in most significant industries, be thrown the hell out of his or her position. Period. End of story.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2015, 05:01:25 PM »
If there is any hope at all, it must lie in the direction of kindness, compassion, generosity, caring for one another... Community, if you will.

"Business" is -- at heart -- a competitive affair, with winners and losers ... and it makes us ALL losers. I'm speaking of the paradigm, here. Not the idea of business as merely a good ol' Ma and Pa thing where Ma makes quilts while Pa repairs shoes.  ... and Grandpa works his two acre farm.

"Business," the real life paradigm, is a bloodbath which eats Ma, Pa and Grampa for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  Never mind future generations!

We cannot win by going to war with "Business".  Our only hope is to subvert this dominant (and dominator) paradigm.

This is made difficult by the sleepwalkers, which run the whole show from top to bottom.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline g

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2015, 05:09:28 PM »
Quote
This completely misses the fact that one of the most basic definitions of property is the right of the individual or corporation to DESTROY that which he, she or it owns.  ... and that this is exactly what lies at the beating heart of all of the major environmental/ ecological problems (and most social problems as well).

As a Leftist, you have a socialist communist view of individuals and corporations and how they work.

Are you foolish enough to believe that most people who own something would willfully destroy it, it is the other way around JRM.

Who do you know who worked all their life to pay off a mortgage on their home or a farmer that worked his life on his farm would destroy it? Who built up a business or company over a lifetime that would destroy it?

People who own things care, nurture, maintain and preserve them for their financial future and those of their families.

You are talking about some evil monopolistic thug corporations that would never be allowed to reach the power and status or have the political clout they do under Libertarianism or Capitalism as conceptualized. What you are looking at are power structures that have been formed in most cases by banksters and their pals who performed predatory monopoly anti capitalist agendas stifling competition and free market to loot the companies, fuck the customers, pay off the politicians and disappear after their looting with a billion dollar suitcase. These people don't own these corporations you describe, they are fucking looters installed by swill banksters who loan them our money at zero interest rates to take these enterprises over and asset strip them.

This is why we need a tort system, small community banks, anti monopoly, predatory capitalist laws enforced, local citizen owned business and corporations, decentralized local government, all the things Libertarians stand for. 

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2015, 07:15:26 PM »
so socialists will care for the envitonment and forests like the chinese do and the soviets did. they had quotas to meet to clear forests. often the trees were then buried in ditches as they were not needed, only the clearing quota needed to be met. libertarians could not possibly do a worse job of protecting the environment than has been done already. if their system is not a slave to gdp growth and debt dollars it has a chance to be sustainable.
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2015, 07:23:44 PM »
GO,
Assuming you had a free hand and reformed the USA to become a Libertarian Paradise, this is what you would achieve:

1. No more immigration control of any sort or customs checks on incoming or outgoing goods.

2. No pre-emption of Federal Laws over State Laws. AND no pre-emption of State laws over County and City laws right down to the Libertarian committees that would control their small districts through a representative style local council. That is where your tort would come in.

3. You would have instant anarchy in law along with thousands of ongoing jurisdictional disputes between every committee with surrounding committees.

4. Law enforcement would be basically a function of the tort committee. If you think they are going to be nice to strangers, you've got another thing coming. ESPECIALLY the ones that are poor and/or the wrong color.

5. Gridlock and gate keeping at every fiefdom will slow commerce, not speed it up.

6. Small, local mini-wars will erupt between areas fighting for control of this or that resource or fighting to get some corporation trashing their area to pay for the pollution. You can bet your sweet bippy that a corporation will SHIT somewhere outside its home committee after it has bought off a few committee members somewhere else.

7. Criminals will have many refuges away from the area they committed the crime in (if they don't get caught in the act) because of all the red tape and gate keeping efforts in each fiefdom.

There's a lot more but that is just a brief overview of how provincial and claustrophobic a Libertarian Paradise quickly becomes. Forget easy travel or vacations. Everywhere you go, somebody is going to have their hand out as the LOCAL AUTHORITY (I.e MY property = My rules.  :evil4:).

I studied the Libertarian world view HARD for years. It will not work, GO. I have told you about reading up on Rothbard, Mises (and several others) that wrote a lot of good stuff and left out some glaring details where the rubber meets the road.

If it worked, I would be the first to support it. It just doesn't.

The most profound thing I ever heard a Libertarian say was that a monarchy is probably the best, and most stable form of government, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A BENEVOLENT MONARCH.

The bottom line with any form of government is the ethics of those doing the governing. Until we have ethical human beings, provincial, small, closed society, gate keeping style fiefdoms are even worse than large governments.

Lack of ethics is our problem, not the type of government. I don't see that changing any time soon.  :emthdown: :(
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 07:35:35 PM by agelbert »
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if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline agelbert

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2015, 07:29:25 PM »
UB,
The only socialist type of government that has ever existed is what you see in Monasteries of different religions and the first century Christian Church.

The INSTANT you have an accepted pecking order, you DO NOT have socialism! You know that! Homo SAPS will NEVER do pure socialism because we are too fond of playing king of the fucking hill.

As I told GO, and I'm repeating to you, our problem is lack of ethics, not style of government.
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Ka

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2015, 12:11:41 AM »
Seems to me that y'all are making the case for what I have previously proposed: the Green Libertarian Socialist Party. Each of the triad demands something vital, and each restrains the extremes of the others.

Offline RE

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2015, 12:36:33 AM »
UB,
The only socialist type of government that has ever existed is what you see in Monasteries of different religions and the first century Christian Church.

The INSTANT you have an accepted pecking order, you DO NOT have socialism! You know that! Homo SAPS will NEVER do pure socialism because we are too fond of playing king of the fucking hill.

As I told GO, and I'm repeating to you, our problem is lack of ethics, not style of government.

It's a SCALE problem more than anything else.

As long as the folks Gooberning have close enough Connection to the Gooberned, regardless of system they will try to do right by them.

So for instance, in a Monastery, with only a few Monks, the Monks in charge do their best to insure the welfare of all the other Monks.

Where you run into problems is when the system gets so large the Goobernors no longer know the Gooberned at all, they are just stats, not real people.

THE MAX SIZE for a fairly Goobernable system with good contact between the Goobernment and the Gooberned is 10,000, and that is only with VERY good organization and feedback loops.  1-2000 is a more normally possible size.

RE
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2015, 03:24:59 AM »
What happens to libertarian paradises in real life?

http://www.vice.com/read/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/honduras-sold-libertarian-paradise-i-went-and-discovered-capitalist-nightmare
http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-libertarian-paradise-would-be-hell-on-earth-2013-12
http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/08/guide-americas-separatist-communities/68921/

... and the queen of libertairian paradises:
http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/topic/somalia-libertarian-paradise/

Quote
Free from the Nanny-State, un-mined highways, laws, police, paramedics, telephones, museums, schools, clean water, libraries, hospitals, sanitation, old-age and most of all, free from taxes! Bon voyage!

Enjoy. My work here is done.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/7QDv4sYwjO0" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/7QDv4sYwjO0</a>
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Ron Paul on the American Empire
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2015, 03:49:55 AM »
Quote
The part of the libertarian dream I do strongly identify with is just the desire to be left the fuck alone, to live my dreams , without being taxed into slavery to support a system that wastes money and resources like they came for free, and works as a conduit to transfer whatever wealth I produce to someone else's pockets.
   :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :ernaehrung004:

That certainly is part of it Doc, a very important part.

And a pretty universal part.

Seriously, what ordinary working stiff does NOT wish to be "left the fuck alone, to live my dreams , without being taxed into slavery to support a system that wastes money and resources like they came for free, and works as a conduit to transfer whatever wealth I produce to someone else's pockets?" Every where, at every time, and in every place, it is the same, and governments devolve to be an agent of coercion and extortion.

Government Spends More on Corporate Welfare Subsidies than Social Welfare Programs
About $59 billion is spent on traditional social welfare programs. $92 billion is spent on corporate subsidies. So, the government spent 50% more on corporate welfare than it did on food stamps and housing assistance in 2006.

What is what you get when the inmates run the asylum and write the laws.

The alternative is to emigrate to Galt's Gulch Chile and try to navigate around the flaws of human nature.

"Being left alone" never serves the agenda of the power elite, who invariably turn up and/or crate themselves in every form of social organization:

Quote
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

 

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