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Online RE

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2012, 07:07:14 PM »
RE,

Guess I threw a softball down the middle with the poll idea?   I like your poll much better than the one I had in mind.

Since I do not know what your concept was, not sure if what I put up was better or worse.  Wasn't a Softball, it was a good starter idea, so I ran with it some. I will wait a while to see if there are some other ideas to drop into the Poll or to reconfgure it in some way before actually setting it up in the thread here.  Making Polls well representative of all the choices possible in a situation like this is tough.  I would like more inpit before finalizing the Poll.

RE
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2012, 05:28:26 AM »
Quote RE "No my friend, because as you stipulate, a return to the Gold Standard stops Money Printing.  What would be the POINT to going back to a Gold standard if it did not stop Money Printing, eh? You are arguing here you CAN'T stop money printing without causing Deflation, Austerity, Soup Lines etc for at least a Decade."

No RE, What I am saying is they are not proposing going back to the gold standard, therefore they must print to feed the fiat monster, if they do not deflation will result. Going back to gold would stop the printing since money would again have an intrinsic, real worth, and confidence in its stability, It would not cause a deflation as you erroneously think, I have addressed that fallacy in your view before. Gold is the anchor, the stabilizer, in an ocean of violent currents of unstable bankster created fiat. You attribute bad things to gold because of your thorough brainwashing.       :icon_study:
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Online RE

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2012, 05:52:37 AM »
Quote RE "No my friend, because as you stipulate, a return to the Gold Standard stops Money Printing.  What would be the POINT to going back to a Gold standard if it did not stop Money Printing, eh? You are arguing here you CAN'T stop money printing without causing Deflation, Austerity, Soup Lines etc for at least a Decade."

 Going back to gold would stop the printing since money would again have an intrinsic, real worth, and confidence in its stability, It would not cause a deflation as you erroneously think, I have addressed that fallacy in your view before.

No actually you never have addressed this with any reasonable argument that I recall, you simply posit it as axiomatic.  You say money printing is necessary to stop the deflation, you say Gold will stop money printing, thus it logically follows that if you stop money printing with Gold, you get deflation.  Even if the money has some real intrinsic value that you believe it does, there is still the inability to make more of it thus you get your deflation.  The money you have, aka Gold in this case may become worth more, but relative to the population and resources it would buy, there is still less to go round.  To demonstrate that run the program to Infinity.  If an Infinite number of people attempt to divide up a finite pile of money, each pile approaches Zero.  In this case you have complete deflation as there no longer is enough money around to run the economy, even if the little there is is worth a lot.

Anyhow, since you don't accept logic as an argument here and continue to posit unsupportable axioms, I'm done with this argument.  You are now a Zombie.  You are DEAD but you just don't know it.  You can't argue with Zombies, and if you hang around them too long they eat your brains.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2012, 06:25:42 AM »
Quote JoeP  "Today's divergence between the the SPX and gold was also amusing."

Could not disagree more about that statement JoeP. Let me assure you that Gold does not move up over 60 dollars in a day while the world wide financial markets are collapsing in unison from panic and financial stress . It doesn't happen. You witnessed a historic day in the markets yesterday. A harbinger; an epic or cataclysmic financial event is imminent. The amount of money needed to move the gold price like that is mind boggling while the entire financial system is under the stress of margin calls, collapsing sovereign bonds, and a complete collapse in oil prices; it is most alarming. Who has that type of financial clout? Was it a person, group of people, a country, Illuminati, and WHY??  No answers here, only a thousand questions.   :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study: :Thinkingof_:

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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2012, 06:35:27 AM »
For those hoping for a rapid response from CBs to the gathering storm here, at least according to the MSM a massive coordinated Global Printfest does not seem in the cards, at least for next week. At the same time, without a massive intervention here, it is hard to see how the Spanish will survive through to the end of next week either.

Super Mario Dragon, head of the ECB is getting more strident in his calls for Eurobonds and a Transfer Union with full fiscal and monetary integration, with all the concomitant loss of National Sovereignty and elimination of Democratic political control that implies.  HUGE pressure now on the Krauts to pick up the Tab for the cascading debt Tsunami surrounding them, but of course in reality the Krauts can't afford to pick everybody's tab here either.

So, a EZ breakup now seems pretty inevitable, and as usual it is the timeline question which is the most tricky.  The Greeks are in such Dire Straits now that if they don't pull out and at least TRY issuing Drachma the only thing that will keep anything moving around that economy at all is Barter systems.  Same with the Spics, they have to try the Peseta route.

So it is time for a Thought Experiment here about exactly how such a fracture back into multiple currencies in Eurotrashland would be handled on an International Trade level, administered of course by the BIS in Switzerland.

They probably do have Legacy Software they used back in the day to track all these currencies, but of course also back then there was a market for the debt each of these countries sold as well.  The big problem here is that even with a Debt Jubilee of all the current MOUNTAINS of debt, there isn't a market for NEW debt either!  If you actually have some money, why would you lend it to anybody when there is no reasonable expectation you would ever be paid back for it?  The funniest one in this regard are the investors currently buying Kraut debt, who actually are PAYING the Krauts for the priviledge of holding their debt!  LOL.  This on the theory of course that it is better to only trickle away your money than to risk losing it all at once.  This situation is an anomaly however, and would not apply to any other nation in the EZ than Krautland once they move to separate currencies.

So then the question is, could these countries issue NON-DEBT money that would function to buy stuff at least inside their own borders?  Possibly and it would certainly be an interesting experiment, but even if they do that they will still need to try to earn some FOREX, namely Dollars right now that still will buy them some Oil.  Or they could try the Nazi trick of doing Direct barter of something they produce which an OPEC nation needs for their Oil, which generally speaking is mostly Food of course.

However, run that idea out in the case of Spain for instance.  They have good arable land there and can certainly grow more food than say the Iranians can on their patch of desert.  Even if the Spics have surplus food to barter with the Towel Heads though, can they grow ENOUGH to both feed their own population AND trade with the Iranians for enough Oil to run their Carz?  This of course returns us to the Choice Steve presents all the time on EU, is do you feed the Carz or feed the People?

So you say, "But the Nazis did it!  They produced Railroad Cars and got Raw materials from the Argentinians!"  Indeed they did, but of course at the time the Nazis had one of the few industrial apparati necessary for producing railroad cars AND there was a ton of excess Oil out there for them to do that with.  The Spics don't have industrial apparatus to build anything the Towel Heads want that the Chinese can't build cheaper.  So bartering Finished Goods with the Towel Heads won't work for the Spics.

On the Grand Scale across the EU this is pretty much true for everybody except the Krauts, who still do produce some finished goods the Towel Heads want.  However, since the price of their Oil is going up, it costs a lot more for the Krauts to produce the finished goods, so they have to raise the prices on them high enough to make some Value Added profit from burning said Oil.  As they raise those prices, the Towel Heads then cannot afford to buy the BMWs unless of course they divert some of their Oil revenue from buying Food to buying BMWs.  Again the choice is between feeding the Carz or feeding the Peoples.

When the market drops off the map for the BMWs, the Krauts of course also will be in the same situation as the Spics and everybody else in Eurotrashland.  They also will have only Food to trade for Oil. Once you take away the advantage in production that Industrialization powered by cheap energy has, just about everybody can produce inside their own society the finished goods that they need.  They don't NEED to trade for them.  Trade only results when various cultures all have surplus and so begin to produce non-essential items other people also in surplus covet for one reason or another.

In the situation we find ourselves in NOW, after years of resource depletion and expanding population overshoot is that in fact nobody really is in surplus anymore and the vast pool of stored thermodynamic energy to prduce so much suplus is petering out here.  Not disappearing overnight, but rapidly becoming to expensive to burn for the purpose of driving Carz around willy nilly or even making Iphones that nobody REALLY needs, they just WANT them. The monetary system implosion is just a representation of the fact that there is not surplus and there is not a future expectation of ROI by buying anybody's debt.  You won't be paid back, so why invest in anything or loan money to anyone?  If you HAVE money or control over resources, you keep them for yourself and try not to LOSE them or have them taken from you.  Both of which get more difficult all the time of course, both on the Micro level of the Individual and the Macro Level of the Nation State.  Far as the OPEC Nations are concerned, at this point their problem is that since Industrialized nations cannot afford to BUY their Oil from them anymore, now they are trying to STEAL it instead, using the Big Ass Military.  For the Individual, the issue is that since their is no Growth, instead of trying to sieve profit off a growing economy, those in control are STEALING the money through Taxation to bailout TBTF Banks, reneging on Pension Plan agreements and selling Trash for Cash like Facepalm to INCREDIBLY stupid Investors who just are ASKING to be bilked and deserve the fate they got for that stupidity.  Always a SUCKER out there of course.  I don't feel sorry for any of those people, but for the people who have Pension Plans they have no control over who Invested in such trash, I do feel sympathy.  Their money and their futures are being stolen from under them from gimmicks like this, and they have no control over that.  The money from doing these deals is being pocketed here by a few very BIG Thieves at the top, and it is time now to STOP this theft once and for all time, by whatever means is necessary to do so.

RE

Central Banks to hold fire... for now


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By Richard Hubbard

LONDON | Sat Jun 2, 2012 7:39am EDT
 
(Reuters) - The intensifying euro zone crisis and uncertain global growth outlook have raised hopes for a policy response from major central banks but, while it could be a close call, they are likely to resist pressure to act in the coming week.
 
The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Reserve Bank of Australia are all due to meet as data emerges on the euro zone's service sector, and the manufacturing and trade performances of the big German and U.S. economies.

The main focus will be Wednesday's ECB meeting, and whether dramatic selling of peripheral European government debt by investors in May and a flight into safe-haven U.S. Treasuries and German government bonds will prompt it to act.

One reason to doubt a major shift in policy is that, even after U.S. Treasury 10-year notes hit yields not seen in more than two centuries of record keeping, and investors began paying the German government for the right to hold its debt, the move across all markets may not warrant it.

"The stresses appear not yet to be big enough across all asset classes for the policymakers to react," said Richard Batty, global investment strategist at Standard Life Investments.

"It all seems to be playing out in investor's appetite for triple-A government bonds and for the dollar, but there doesn't seem to be the volatility or sharp falls in equity markets or other stresses in the system, such as the funding market."

In Europe, the spread between three-month Libor rates and overnight rates, seen as a measure of health of the banking system, has been stable throughout May - mainly due to the more than one trillion euros of cheap funds injected into the system by the ECB in December and February.

And while May was a bad month for equity markets everywhere and Spain and Italy in particular, the widely watched Dow Jones .DXY and S&P 500 .SPX indexes remain in positive territory for the year to date.

Those gains were under threat on Friday, however, as disappointing May U.S. jobs data sparked heavy selling, sending the MSCI world equity index .MIWD00000PUS back to where it started the year.

The VIX index .VIX, often referred to as the market's fear gauge stood at 25 points, in line with its levels of last December but well below the 48 points seen at the height of last year's market turmoil in August and September.

POLITICAL MOVES

A heavy calendar of events throughout June which could help determine how the euro zone crisis unfolds may also encourage Europe's key monetary policymakers to hold fire.

Greek elections are due on June 17, following a first round of French parliamentary elections on June 10. The heads of the G20 group of nations will hold a summit on June 18 and 19, while Europe's leaders gather at the end of the month to decide their next response to the crisis.

But pressure is growing for action from the ECB to calm acute nervousness about a potential Greek exit from the currency bloc, and fears that the cost to Spain of saving its fragile banks will mean the country itself has to be rescued.

"The ECB is currently the only institution that can credibly counter a collective loss of confidence on the scale we're now witnessing," said Nicholas Spiro, Managing Director at debt consultancy Spiro Sovereign Strategy.

Spanish bond yields have surged in the past week to near their highest level since the launch of the euro, raising questions about the country's ability to fund itself over the longer term without outside help.

Spain will provide a big test of investor sentiment when it auctions more government bonds on Thursday as its 10-year bond yields hover around 6.5 percent - close to the 7 percent level at which other indebted countries have been forced to seek aid.

The latest Reuters poll of economists found most still expected the ECB to resist pressure to cut interest rates before the end of next year, but that majority has shrunk from previous polls as gloomy economic data rolls in. Just 11 of the 73 respondents expected the bank to cut rates on June 6. <ECB/INT>

The Bank of England is also expected to resist calls to pump more money into the depressed UK economy when it meets on June 7, according to a separate Reuters poll, although it found there was an even chance the central bank would restart the printing presses at some point in future. POLL3

A slim majority of economists expect Australia's central bank to keep interest rates unchanged on Tuesday, but this is an even closer call as a growing number of banks, including the nation's top four, are calling for a cut. AURATE1

Meanwhile, the U.S. Federal Reserve Board's mid-month policy meeting and the end of its current easing policy, known as 'Operation Twist', could also bring changes.

"With dark clouds gathering over the global economy and the euro area crisis intensifying, the ‘Great Monetary Easing Part 2' looks set to accelerate again as many major central banks around the globe are gearing up for more action in the next month or two," said Manoj Pradhan of Morgan Stanley.
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2012, 06:57:56 AM »
Quote RE "Anyhow, since you don't accept logic as an argument here and continue to posit unsupportable axioms, I'm done with this argument.  You are now a Zombie.  You are DEAD but you just don't know it.  You can't argue with Zombies, and if you hang around them too long they eat your brains."
You poor thing, what a brainwashing, you cannot even imagine a world without fiat anymore. One last time; the major argument for most proponents of a gold standard,including myself, is that gold money equals price stability, Not inflation, not deflation, but price STABILITY! The historical record is clear. You had mentioned you did nothing in college but drink beer and bang broads, but I never realized the extent of it until recently.

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 07:18:13 AM by Golden Oxen »

Online RE

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:32 AM »
One last time; the major argument for most proponents of a gold standard,including myself, is that gold money equals price stability

HTF is the Price of Gold STABLE?  It has been going steadily UP in price for at least 80 years now.  That priced in Dollars of course, so let's look at it's relationship to what it Buys, measured against Oil and normalize it.

Here is the historical Price of Gold measured in Dollars

Year
Average
Price Year
Average
Price Year
Average
Price Year
Average
Price
1833-49* 18.93 1901 18.98 1953 34.84 2005 444.74
1850 18.93 1902 18.97 1954 35.04 2006 603.46
1851 18.93 1903 18.95 1955 35.03 2007 695.39
1852 18.93 1904 18.96 1956 34.99 2008 871.96
1853 18.93 1905 18.92 1957 34.95 2009 972.35
1854 18.93 1906 18.90 1958 35.10 2010 1,224.53
1855 18.93 1907 18.94 1959 35.10 2011 1,571.52
1856 18.93 1908 18.95 1960 35.27
1857 18.93 1909 18.96 1961 35.25
1858 18.93 1910 18.92 1962 35.23
1859 18.93 1911 18.92 1963 35.09
1860 18.93 1912 18.93 1964 35.10
1861 18.93 1913 18.92 1965 35.12
1862 18.93 1914 18.99 1966 35.13
1863 18.93 1915 18.99 1967 34.95
1864 18.93 1916 18.99 1968 39.31
1865 18.93 1917 18.99 1969 41.28
1866 18.93 1918 18.99 1970 36.02
1867 18.93 1919 19.95 1971 40.62
1868 18.93 1920 20.68 1972 58.42
1869 18.93 1921 20.58 1973 97.39
1870 18.93 1922 20.66 1974 154.00
1871 18.93 1923 21.32 1975 160.86
1872 18.94 1924 20.69 1976 124.74
1873 18.94 1925 20.64 1977 147.84
1874 18.94 1926 20.63 1978 193.40
1875 18.94 1927 20.64 1979 306.00
1876 18.94 1928 20.66 1980 615.00
1877 18.94 1929 20.63 1981 460.00
1878 18.94 1930 20.65 1982 376.00
1879 18.94 1931 17.06 1983 424.00
1880 18.94 1932 20.69 1984 361.00
1881 18.94 1933 26.33 1985 317.00
1882 18.94 1934 34.69 1986 368.00
1883 18.94 1935 34.84 1987 447.00
1884 18.94 1936 34.87 1988 437.00
1885 18.94 1937 34.79 1989 381.00
1886 18.94 1938 34.85 1990 383.51
1887 18.94 1939 34.42 1991 362.11
1888 18.94 1940 33.85 1992 343.82
1889 18.93 1941 33.85 1993 359.77
1890 18.94 1942 33.85 1994 384.00
1891 18.96 1943 33.85 1995** 383.79
1892 18.96 1944 33.85 1996 387.81
1893 18.96 1945 34.71 1997 331.02
1894 18.94 1946 34.71 1998 294.24
1895 18.93 1947 34.71 1999 278.98
1896 18.98 1948 34.71 2000 279.11
1897 18.98 1949 31.69 2001 271.04
1898 18.98 1950 34.72 2002 309.73
1899 18.94 1951 34.72 2003 363.38
1900 18.96 1952 34.60 2004 409.72

Now, here is an Oil Price Chart

December 30, 2005 $61.04
January 6, 2006 $64.21
January 13, 2006 $63.92
January 20, 2006 $68.48
January 27, 2006 $67.76
February 3, 2006 $65.37
February 10, 2006 $61.84
February 17, 2006 $59.88
February 24, 2006 $62.91
March 3, 2006 $63.67
March 10, 2006 $59.96
March 17, 2006 $62.80
March 24, 2006 $64.26
March 31, 2006 $66.35
April 7, 2006 $67.43
April 13, 2006 $69.45
April 20, 2006 $72.98
April 28, 2006 $71.58
May 5, 2006 $69.97
May 12, 2006 $71.93
May 19, 2006 $68.53
May 26, 2006 $71.29
June 2, 2006 $72.75
June 9, 2006 $71.64
June 16, 2006 $69.97
June 23, 2006 $70.78
June 29, 2006 $73.52
July 7, 2006 $73.86
July 14, 2006 $76.80
July 21, 2006 $74.57
July 28, 2006 $73.36
August 4, 2006 $74.77
August 11, 2006 $74.35
August 18, 2006 $71.14
August 25, 2006 $72.51
September 1, 2006 $69.19
September 8, 2006 $66.25
September 15, 2006 $63.33
September 22, 2006 $60.55
September 29, 2006 $62.91
October 6, 2006 $59.76
October 13, 2006 $58.57
October 20, 2006 $59.33
October 27, 2006 $60.75
November 3, 2006 $59.05
November 10, 2006 $59.59
November 17, 2006 $58.97
November 24, 2006 $59.24
December 1, 2006 $63.28
December 8, 2006 $62.03
December 15, 2006 $63.43
December 22, 2006 $62.41
December 29, 2006 $61.05
January 5, 2007 $56.31
January 12, 2007 $53.30
January 19, 2007 $51.99
January 26, 2007 $55.42
February 2, 2007 $59.02
February 9, 2007 $59.89
February 16, 2007 $59.39
February 23, 2007 $61.44
March 2, 2007 $61.64
March 9, 2007 $59.69
March 16, 2007 $57.11
March 23, 2007 $62.28
March 30, 2007 $65.87
April 6, 2007 $64.28
April 13, 2007 $63.63
April 20, 2007 $64.11
April 27, 2007 $66.46
May 4, 2007 $61.93
May 11, 2007 $62.37
May 18, 2007 $64.94
May 25, 2007 $65.20
June 1, 2007 $65.08
June 8, 2007 $64.76
June 15, 2007 $68.00
June 22, 2007 $69.14
June 29, 2007 $70.68
July 6, 2007 $72.81
July 13, 2007 $73.93
July 20, 2007 $75.79
July 27, 2007 $77.02
August 3, 2007 $75.48
August 10, 2007 $71.47
August 17, 2007 $71.98
August 24, 2007 $71.09
August 31, 2007 $74.04
September 7, 2007 $76.70
September 14, 2007 $79.10
September 21, 2007 $81.62
September 28, 2007 $81.66
October 5, 2007 $81.22
October 12, 2007 $83.69
October 19, 2007 $88.60
October 26, 2007 $91.86
November 2, 2007 $95.93
November 9, 2007 $96.32
November 16, 2007 $93.84
November 23, 2007 $98.18
November 30, 2007 $88.71
December 7, 2007 $88.28
December 14, 2007 $91.27
December 21, 2007 $93.31
December 28, 2007 $96.00
December 31, 2007 $95.98
January 4, 2008 $97.91
January 11, 2008 $92.69
January 18, 2008 $90.57
January 25, 2008 $90.71
February 1, 2008 $88.96
February 8, 2008 $91.77
February 15, 2008 $95.50
February 22, 2008 $98.81
February 29, 2008 $101.84
March 7, 2008 $105.15
March 14, 2008 $110.21
March 21, 2008 $101.84
March 28, 2008 $105.62
April 4, 2008 $106.23
April 11, 2008 $110.14
April 18, 2008 $116.69
April 25, 2008 $118.52
May 2, 2008 $116.32
May 9, 2008 $125.96
May 16, 2008 $126.29
May 23, 2008 $132.19
May 30, 2008 $127.35
June 6, 2008 $138.54
June 13, 2008 $134.86
June 20, 2008 $135.36 
June 27, 2008 $140.21
July 4, 2008 $145.29
July 11, 2008 $145.08
July 18, 2008 $128.88
July 25, 2008 $123.26
August 1, 2008 $125.10
August 8, 2008 $115.20
August 15, 2008 $113.77
August 22, 2008 $114.59
August 29, 2008 $115.46
September 5, 2008 $106.23
September 12, 2008 $101.18
September 19, 2008 $104.55
September 26, 2008 $106.89
October 3, 2008 $93.88
October 10, 2008 $77.70
October 17, 2008 $71.85
October 24, 2008 $64.15
October 31, 2008 $67.81
November 7, 2008 $61.04
November 14, 2008 $57.04
November 21, 2008 $49.93
November 28, 2008 $54.43
December 5, 2008 $40.81
December 12, 2008 $46.28
December 19, 2008 $42.36
December 26, 2008 $37.71
December 31, 2008 $44.60
January 2, 2009 $46.34
January 9, 2009 $40.83
January 16, 2009 $36.51
January 23, 2009 $46.47
January 30, 2009 $41.68
February 6, 2009 $40.17
February 13, 2009 $37.51
February 20, 2009 $40.03
February 27, 2009 $44.76
March 6, 2009 $45.52
March 13, 2009 $46.25
March 20, 2009 $52.07
March 27, 2009 $52.38
April 3, 2009 $52.51
April 10, 2009 $52.24
April 17, 2009 $50.33
April 24, 2009 $51.55
May 1, 2009 $53.20
May 8, 2009 $58.63
May 15, 2009 $56.34
May 22, 2009 $61.67
May 29, 2009 $66.31
June 5, 2009 $68.44
June 12, 2009 $72.04
June 19, 2009 $69.55
June 26, 2009 $69.16
July 3, 2009 $65.63
July 10, 2009 $59.89
July 17, 2009 $63.56
July 24, 2009 $68.05
July 31, 2009 $69.45
August 7, 2009 $70.93
August 14, 2009 $67.51
August 21, 2009 $73.89
August 28, 2009 $72.74
September 4, 2009 $68.02
September 11, 2009 $69.29
September 18, 2009 $72.04
September 25, 2009 $66.02
October 2, 2009 $69.95
October 9, 2009 $71.77
October 16, 2009 $78.53
October 23, 2009 $80.50
October 30, 2009 $77.00
November 6, 2009 $77.43
November 13, 2009 $76.35
November 20, 2009 $77.47
November 27, 2009 $76.05
December 4, 2009 $75.47
December 11, 2009 $69.87
December 18, 2009 $73.36
December 24, 2009 $78.05
December 31, 2009 $79.36
January 8, 2010 $82.75
January 15, 2010 $78.00
January 22, 2010 $74.54
January 29, 2010 $72.89
February 6, 2010 $71.19
 
February 12, 2010 $74.13
 
February 19, 2010 $79.81
 
February 26, 2010 $79.66
 
March 5, 2010 $81.50
 
March 12, 2010 $81.24
 
March 19, 2010 $80.68
 
March 26, 2010 $80.00
 
April 2, 2010 $84.87
 
April 9, 2010 $84.92
 
April 16, 2010 $83.24
 
April 23, 2010 $85.12
 
April 30, 2010 $86.15
 
May 7, 2010 $75.11
 
May 14, 2010 $71.61
 
May 21, 2010 $70.04
 
May 28, 2010 $73.97
 
June 4, 2010 $71.51
 
June 11, 2010 $73.78
 
June 18, 2010 $77.18
 
June 25, 2010 $78.86
 
July 2, 2010 $72.14
 
July 9, 2010 $76.09
 
July 16, 2010 $76.01
 
July 23, 2010 $78.98
 
July 30, 2010 $78.95
 
August 6, 2010 $80.70
 
August 13, 2010 $75.39
 
August 20, 2010 $73.82
 
August 27, 2010 $75.17
 
September 3, 2010 $74.60
 
September 10, 2010 $76.45
 
September 17, 2010 $73.66
 
September 24, 2010 $76.49
 
October 1, 2010 $81.58
 
October 8, 2010 $82.66
 
October 15, 2010 $81.25
 
October 22, 2010 $81.69
 
October 29, 2010 $81.43
 
November 5, 2010 $86.85
 
November 12, 2010 $84.88
 
November 19, 2010 $81.98
 
November 26, 2010 $83.76
 
December 3, 2010 $89.19
 
December 10, 2010 $87.79
 
December 17, 2010 $88.02
 
December 24, 2010 $91.51
 
December 31, 2010 $91.38
 
January 7, 2011 $88.03
 
January 14, 2011 $91.54
 
January 21, 2011 $89.11
 
January 28, 2011 $89.34
 
February 4, 2011 $89.03
 
February 11, 2011 $85.58
 
February 18, 2011 $86.20
 
February 25, 2011 $97.88
 
March 4, 2011 $104.42
 
March 11, 2011 $101.16
 
March 18, 2011 $101.07
 
March 25, 2011 $105.40
 
April 1, 2011 $107.94
 
April 8, 2011 $112.79
 
April 15, 2011 $109.66
 
April 22, 2011 $112.29
 
April 29, 2011 $113.93
 
May 6, 2011 $97.18
 
May 13, 2011 $99.65
 
May 20, 2011 $100.10
 
May 27, 2011 $100.59
 
June 3, 2011 $100.22
 
June 10, 2011 $99.29
 
June 17, 2011 $93.01
 
June 24, 2011 $91.16
 
July 1, 2011 $94.94
 
July 8, 2011 $96.20
 
July 15, 2011 $97.24
 
July 22, 2011 $99.87
 
July 29, 2011 $95.70
 
August 5, 2011 $86.88
 
August 12, 2011 $85.38
 
August 19, 2011 $82.26
 
August 26, 2011 $85.37
 
September 2, 2011 $86.45
 
September 9, 2011 $87.24
 
September 16, 2011 $87.96
 
September 23, 2011 $79.85
 
September 30, 2011 $79.20
 
October 7, 2011 $82.98
 
October 14, 2011 $86.80
 
October 21, 2011 $87.40
 
October 28, 2011 $93.32
 
November 4, 2011 $94.26
 
November 11, 2011 $98.99
 
November 18, 2011 $97.67
 
November 25, 2011 $96.77
 
December 2, 2011 $100.96
 
December 9, 2011 $99.41
 
December 16, 2011 $93.53
 
December 23, 2011 $99.68
 
December 30, 2011 $98.83
 
January 6, 2012 $101.56
 
January 13, 2012 $98.70
 
January 20, 2012 $98.33
 
January 27, 2012 $99.56
 
February 03, 2012 $97.84
 
February 10, 2012 $98.67
 
February 17, 2012 $103.24
 
February 24, 2012 $109.77
 
March 2, 2012 $106.70
 
March 9, 2012 $107.40
 
March 16, 2012 $107.06
 
March 23, 2012 $106.87
 
March 30, 2012 $103.02
 
April 6, 2012 $103.31
 
April 13, 2012 $102.83
 
April 20, 2012 $103.88
 
April 27, 2012 $104.93
 
May 4, 2012 $98.49
 
May 11, 2012 $96.13
 
May 18, 2012 $91.48
 
May 25, 2012 $90.86
 
June 1, 2012 $83.23
 
The Oil Price Chart only goes back to 2005, so let us start with that year.  Oil=$61, Gold=$445 Gold/Oil=7.295
Last data for both Oil and Gold in 2011   Oil=avg around $90, Gold=$1572  Gold/Oil=17.47

As is obvious here, the price of Gold measured in Oil is not stable AT ALL.  An Ounce of Gold buys more than TWICE what an Ounce of Gold bought in 2005!  it is not stable in Dollars, it is not stable measured against other resouces either because it is not increasing as rapidly in supply, duh.

Now, in the future here as Oil decreases in its availability also, it will likely start to move the other way against Gold, but regardless of the direction of movement, to claim there is price stability in Gold against anything you might buy with it is a canard.  Its relative price against anything else depends on supply and demand and its perceived value at any given time in the markets, not to mention manipulation that can be done all the time by large holders of either Gold or resources.

Gold is not increasing much in supply, and will even less so as Oil becomes less available to mine it with.  Its price measured in ANYTHING else won't remain stable, it will INCREASE in price as long as its perceived value remains high and the supply remains low, it will decrease in price if its perceived value drops and the supply increases through liquidations of central piles of the stuff.  This is Econ 1010 GO, and the NUMBERS all disprove your claim of price stability in Gold anyhow.  You better go eat some more brains, yours are fried.

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2012, 08:02:13 AM »
Quote JoeP  "Today's divergence between the the SPX and gold was also amusing."

Could not disagree more about that statement JoeP. Let me assure you that Gold does not move up over 60 dollars in a day while the world wide financial markets are collapsing in unison from panic and financial stress . It doesn't happen. You witnessed a historic day in the markets yesterday. A harbinger; an epic or cataclysmic financial event is imminent. The amount of money needed to move the gold price like that is mind boggling while the entire financial system is under the stress of margin calls, collapsing sovereign bonds, and a complete collapse in oil prices; it is most alarming. Who has that type of financial clout? Was it a person, group of people, a country, Illuminati, and WHY??  No answers here, only a thousand questions.

The answer here is of course Volatility in an unstable market.  Many assets are mispriced now due to market manipulations, so vast amounts of capital are moving between asets in the attempt to Hedge.  USTs, Kraut Bunds and Gold also are so far the beneficiaries of this movement, but they are not priced correctly EITHER because of the market manipulation.

Who is moving around such vast amounts of money/capital/debt?  Mostly the TBTF Banks I suspect, but also probably Shadow Banking of the Iluminati as well. You cannot predict on any given day where or how they will try to move the market, it is getting ever more volatile here. It will get moreso as more people/institutions start to PANIC so it is not a good time to be playing the markets if you have a weak stomach.  Price Swings are likely to be enormous here.  Its the Titanic half filled with water now being sloshed back and forth by the ocean and on its way down.

Duck and Cover baby, this sucker is going DOWN here now.

Here they come to Sell 'em AGAIN!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WrxlVjZJawQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WrxlVjZJawQ</a>

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2012, 08:39:44 AM »
Quote RE "This is Econ 1010 GO, and the NUMBERS all disprove your claim of price stability in Gold anyhow.  You better go eat some more brains, yours are fried."

You just don't get it you are measuring prices in fiat, not gold. Think GOLD not fiat.

As to your remark about my brain being fried, it is a blatant LIE. Sure I smoked a few joints with my good friend Slick Willie at Oxford. You may have heard of him, crown prince of the Dem's and their ideals, also POTUS. We smoked but we never inhaled Honest!, just ask Slick Willie, he will vouch for me, he never told a lie in his life, we never never inhaled.
I Never Inhaled HONEST ask Slick Willie
I Never Inhaled HONEST ask Slick Willie

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2012, 12:13:49 PM »

You just don't get it you are measuring prices in fiat, not gold. Think GOLD not fiat.


No I am not measuring the prices in Fiat, I am measuring it in how many barrels of OIL it buys.  I divided the fiat OUT to normalize it.  In 2005 a 1 Oz Gold Eagle bought 7.295 Barrels of Oil.  In 2011, same Gold Eagle bought 17.47 Barrels.  That is NOT stability.  If it was stable, it would have bought the same number of barrels.  Its relative worth always changes relative to supply and demand and perceived worth, not to mention of course market manipulation of both commodities by large holders of both.

Its never been stable.  In England in the 1600s when Gold went scarce, its value measured in Silver shot through the roof.  In Old West mining towns where Gold was plentiful but steaks were not, the value of Gold relative to a juicy T-Bone dropped like a rock.  No fiat involved here, measuring purchasing power. Its NOT stable.  Econ 101 dude, supply and demand.

Go smoke some more dope.

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 01:41:34 PM by RE »
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     Restore Gold Standard for price stability, employment
 
     By Charles W. Kadlek
There were no worldwide financial crises of major magnitude during the Bretton Woods era from 1947 to 1971. Lesson: Gold is a more efficient governor of monetary policy that the Federal Reserve.

When it last met, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) signaled its desire to increase the rate of inflation by providing additional monetary stimulus. This policy is based on a false-and dangerous-premise: that manipulating the dollar's buying power will lead to higher employment and economic growth. But the experience of the past 40 years points to the opposite conclusion: that guaranteeing a stable value for the dollar by restoring dollar-gold convertibility would be the surest way for the Federal Reserve to achieve its dual mandate of maximum employment and price stability.

From 1947 through 1967, the year before the US began to weasel out of its commitment to dollar-gold convertibility, unemployment averaged only 4.7% and never rose above 7%. Real growth averaged 4% a year. Low unemployment and high growth coincided with low inflation. During the 21 years ending in 1967, consumer-price inflation averaged just 1.9% a year. Interest rates, too, were low and stable-the yield on triple-A corporate bonds averaged less than 4% and never rose above 6%.

What's happened since 1971, when President Nixon formally broke the link between the dollar and gold? Higher average unemployment, slower growth, greater instability and a decline in the economy's resilience. For the period 1971 through 2009, unemployment averaged 6.2%, a full 1.5 percentage points above the 1947-67 average, and real growth rates averaged less than 3%. We have since experienced the three worst recessions since the end of World War II, with the unemployment rate averaging 8.5% in 1975, 9.7% in 1982, and above 9.5% for the past 14 months. During these 39 years in which the Fed was free to manipulate the value of the dollar, the consumer-price index rose, on average, 4.4% a year. That means that a dollar today buys only about one-sixth of the consumer goods it purchased in 1971.

Interest rates, too, have been high and highly volatile, with the yield on triple-A corporate bonds averaging more than 8% and, until 2003, never falling below 6%. High and highly volatile interest rates are symptomatic of the monetary uncertainty that has reduced the economy's ability to recover from external shocks and led directly to one financial crisis after another. During these four decades of discretionary monetary policies, the world suffered no fewer than 10 major financial crises, beginning with the oil crisis of 1973 and culminating in the financial crisis of 2008-09, and now the sovereign debt crisis and potential currency war of 2010. There were no world-wide financial crises of similar magnitude between 1947 and 1971.

At the center of each of these crises were gyrating currency values-either on foreign-exchange markets or in terms of real goods and services. As the dollar's value gyrates it produces windfall profits and losses, feeding speculation and poor judgment. The housing bubble was fed in part by 40 years of experience with a dollar that lost purchasing power every year. Today, individual investors are piling into gold and other commodities in hopes of finding a safe haven from the FOMC's intention to decrease the buying power of the dollar and reduce the value of our savings.

And what of the seductive promise that a floating dollar would make American labor more competitive and improve the nation's trade balance? In 1967, one dollar could buy the equivalent of approximately 2.4 euros (based on the pre-euro German mark) and 362 yen. Over the succeeding 42 years, the dollar has been devalued by 72% against the euro and 75% against the yen. Yet net exports have fallen from a modest surplus in 1967 to a $390 billion deficit equivalent to 2.7% of GDP today.

The members of the FOMC, like their predecessors, are trying to do the best they can, but they are not really sure what it is that needs to be done. They have kept the federal-funds rate near zero for almost two years, but small businesses find it difficult to get loans and savers suffer from the lost income brought by artificially low interest rates. Now they're about to advocate higher inflation-i.e., less price stability-in hopes of spurring economic growth.

Economists and pundits may disagree on why the gold standard delivered such superior results compared to the recurrent crises, instability and overall inferior economic performance delivered by the current system. But the data are clear: A gold-based system delivers higher employment and more price stability. The time has come to begin the serious work of building a 21st-century gold standard for the benefit of American workers, investors and businesses.                                                                              :icon_study:
(Courtesy: Daily Reckoning, Australia)

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     Restore Gold Standard for price stability, employment
 
     By Charles W. Kadlek


Pasting Goldbug Propaganda from Charlie doesn't cut the mustard here GO.  You actually have to respond to what I wrote.

Charlie writes:

Quote
From 1947 through 1967, the year before the US began to weasel out of its commitment to dollar-gold convertibility, unemployment averaged only 4.7% and never rose above 7%. Real growth averaged 4% a year. Low unemployment and high growth coincided with low inflation. During the 21 years ending in 1967, consumer-price inflation averaged just 1.9% a year. Interest rates, too, were low and stable-the yield on triple-A corporate bonds averaged less than 4% and never rose above 6%.

His thesis here in the article is that the growth and low unemployment of those years is all because of a Gold Standard.  He ignores the fact that this was the post-WWII years when the industrial infrastructure of Europe was in ruins and here in the FSofA we had our own source of Cheap Oil bubblin up from Jed Clampett's farm.

Going off Gold in 1971 wasn't the CAUSE of reduced productivity and increased unemployment, both were the RESULT of reaching local Peak Oil here in the FSofA around 1970 or so.  The only way to make it appear that growth was still occurring was to go into DEBT to buy Saudi Oil, and so long as the Saudis would accept Dollars for Oil that could be done until the Saudi Oil got too expensive and the Chinese were competing for it.

If we had stayed on the Gold standard in 1971, in order to buy Oil from the Saudis we would have emptied Fort Knox of Tungsten probably by 1980.  Our economy would have crashed back then instead of being extended and pretended out until now.  Actually came pretty close during the Oil Embargo in the late 70s.

Anyhow, I gotta stop arguing with Cut & Paste Zombies.  You can't change somebody's mind after they are already DEAD, even if they are still Walking.

Recent Gold Bug Protest in front of Da NY Fed

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2012, 03:02:39 PM »
RE Quote"Pasting Goldbug Propaganda from Charlie doesn't cut the mustard here GO.  You actually have to respond to what I wrote."

As the gent said at TAE  RE you like to muddy the waters, if you could stay on topic perhaps I could help you. There was no peak oil problem forty years ago, it was an Arab oil boycott and the formation of OPEC that caused it, don't blame it on gold not being a restraint on inflation. You have to stop making up History to suit your arguments. I have been endlessly trying to explain to you that gold backing of money prevents excess printing of it's paper derivative and you have price stability on account of it. You wish to convolute, divert, nit pic and obfuscate that fact with tangents of BS and go off the topic. I never said to you that if we went back to gold that all prices of all things would be frozen forever on that day. You brought that nonsense and idiocy into the argument because you are unable to argue the topic and stay focused. If we had a drought while on the gold standard would corn and wheat go up yes, if we had a massive bumper crop would they go down, yes. What has that got to do with the argument for gold backed money. See what I mean,
ZOMBIE GO
ZOMBIE GO
you muddy the waters. :icon_study: :icon_study:

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2012, 03:47:04 PM »
There was no peak oil problem forty years ago

There wasn't?  Have you ever LOOKED at the graph of US Oil Production?  Peaked in 1970, right before the Gold Window got shut.



Therafter, in order to supply oil to the US Industrial Machine, it had to be purchased in increasing amounts overseas on credit.

Bang, you're DEAD again.

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Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2012, 06:04:11 AM »
Market rumor: Pimco and JP Morgan halt vacations to prepare for economic crash

Todd Harrison tweet: Hearing (not confirmed) @PIMCO asked employees to cancel vacations to have "all hands on deck" for a Lehman-type tail event. Confirm?

 
Todd M. Schoenberger tweet: @todd_harrison @pimco I heard the same thing, but I also heard the same for "some" at JPM. Heard it today at a hedge fund luncheon.

 
Does this mean it’s time to get some tail?   ::)
 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 06:05:56 AM by JoeP »
just my straight shooting honest opinion