AuthorTopic: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints  (Read 52250 times)

Offline Surly1

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A Needed Corrective, Now Go Hose the Bullshit off Your Shoes
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2015, 05:05:47 AM »
The black pastor says wait for the facts because the massacre happened in a church it may be religion not race. I had the same thought myself. He suggests some liberal people are intolerant if you do not share their view and seem ready to commit hate crime on him. Is he right or wrong when you call a black pastor who calls a spade a spade subhuman?

Perhaps because you are over in the ass end of the world you are not acquainted with US news or facts on the ground. The shooter has already been identified, arrested, and held in custody.  Anything that E. W. Jackson wants to infer about, "wait for the facts," is a pale echo of what the right wing media in this country keeps pumping out. The memes circulating, "we don't know why he did it," which is what is said when a white shooter executes a number of innocents. Yes we do. We know why he did it, which is racism pure and simple, aided, abetted, and cosseted by a conservative white right-wing establishment.

How here's an example of what passes for handwriting by the conservative establishment media in the US in the wake opf what most people would call facts: more hopeless handwring and hyperpoliticized speculation to score cheap poliitical points in the wake of an unspeakable tragedy:

The confessed shooter who massacred members of a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, made it clear that he sought his victims out because of their race and wanted to start a race war. However, Republican politicians and Fox News pundits have either feigned ignorance about the shooter’s admitted motivations or have come up with alternative explanations for the massacre.

Drugs

While conservative pundits have blasted people for stating that the attack on a black church was a hate crime — based on statements by a witness to the massacre and the shooter himself — many seem to have no problem speculating wildly about other possible explanations. In fact, the only thing they are more angry about is the suggestion that the shooting had anything do with guns.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry, furious that President Obama linked the shooting to America’s problem with gun violence dismissed any discussion of the country’s gun laws, saying that the shooter in Charleston was probably drugged-up.

While Perry called the attack “a crime of hate,” he also described it as “an accident.”

Right-wing radio personalities Alex Jones and Michael Savage also wondered if the shooter was on drugs and even part of a government plot to stir up racial violence.

Religious Liberty

Former Sen. Rick Santorum posited that the attack was part of a larger “assault on religious liberty,” a recurring theme that Santorum and other Republicans use on the campaign trail to blast gay rights laws and the separation of church and state. Lindsey Graham, another presidential candidate, made a similar claim: “There are people out there, looking for Christians to kill them.”

The pundits at Fox News, where many of the GOP leaders get their talking points, were in agreement. Steve Doocy said it’s “extraordinary” that the police called the attack a hate crime since it was “was a white guy apparently and a black church,” positing that the attack was the result of the shooter’s “hostility towards Christians.” Brian Kilmeade said the shooter “hates Christian churches” and Elisabeth Hasselbeck called it an “attack on faith,” all the while ignoring the shooter’s explicit mentions of race.

E.W. Jackson, a Fox News contributor, agreed: “Most people jump to the conclusions about race, I long for the day we stop doing that in our country,” before he himself assumed that the shooter was motivated by hatred of Christians. In a radio show interview, Jackson said that gay people, liberals and President Obama all were culpable since the shooting was likely the result of “growing hostility and antipathy to Christianity” and “the biblical worldview about sexuality.”

RedState founder Erick Erickson had a similar take, even throwing Caitlyn Jenner’s gender transition into the mix: “A society that looks at a 65 year old male Olympian and, with a straight face, declares him a her and ‘a new normal’ cannot have a conversation about mental health or evil because that society no longer distinguishes normal from crazy and evil from good. Our American society has a mental illness -- overwhelming narcissism and delusion -- and so cannot recognize what crazy or evil looks like.”

Abortion Rights

Fox News contributor Alveda King revealed the real reason for the shooting: the legalization of abortion.

“It’s a lack of value for human life…You kill babies in the womb, kill people in their beds, shoot people on the streets, so now you go into the church when people are praying,” she said.

Alex Jones was upset that “the police and Obama keep talking about how coldblooded it was to go sit down with people in a church, and it was, super coldblooded, but isn’t it more coldblooded to kill babies and then go have lunch?”

Blame The Victims

National Rifle Association board member Charles Cotton had some strong words for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, one of the nine people killed in the shooting, who was the pastor of the church and a state senator: “[H]e voted against concealed-carry. Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead. Innocent people died because of his position on a political issue.”

Not to be outdone, the leaders of Gun Owners of America, father-son duo Larry and Erich Pratt, also blamed Pinckney. The younger Pratt, the organization’s communications director, called Pinckney an “anti-gun activist,” while Larry Pratt blasted Pinckney for supposedly leaving his congregation “defenseless.”

Bryan Fischer of American Family Radio similarly accused the pastor of turning the church “into a shooting gallery.”

Who knows?

Jeb Bush opened his remarks today at the Faith and Freedom Coalition’s Road to Majority summit by saying that no one can ever really know the true motivation behind the attack. Later, he told reporters that he still doesn’t know why the shooter carried out the attack:

Tweet: Laura Bassett ✔@LEBassett Jeb Bush: "I don't know what was on the mind or the heart of the man" who shot up the church in Charleston 10:01 AM - 19 Jun 2015 71 71 Retweets 20 20 favorites

Bush eventually clarified that he thinks the attack was racially motivated, but he isn’t alone in pleading ignorance.

Even South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley said on her Facebook page that “we’ll never understand what motivates anyone” to commit such an atrocity.

 

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/anything-race-right-wing-pundits-denial-mode-following-charleston-shooting#sthash.AVP3ia8U.dpuf




The shooter, Dylann Roof displayed a Confederate flag on his license plate, and in a photo on his Facebook page, wears a jacket with stitched-on flag patches from two other defeated white-ruled regimes: Rhodesia and apartheid-era South Africa. Roof executed nine people during a prayer meeting.

I have some difficulty teasing out any ambiguity in that.

The US has a rich and ignoble history of white racist attacks on black churches. They were bombed the 1960s, when they served as organizing hubs for the Civil Rights movement. Many were burned by arsons in the 1990s. Others survived shooting sprees. Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, founded in 1816, has a grim history of its own: When a founder, Denmark Vesey, tried to organize a slave revolt in 1822, he was caught, and white landowners burned the church down in revenge. Parishioners worshipped underground until after the Civil War.


This man is entitled to interpret the bible literally,  chances are he is a latent homosexual as it seems the majority of homophobes are. He doesnt have to interpret or rewrite the bible to be an acceptable christian.

WTF are you burbling about? Who cares?

There is no question that liberal academics have waged war in family values I agree with him on that. When u cite a majority of men in libertarian party ask yourself how your ideology treats men. When u cite a majority of white membership ask yourself how your ideology treats whites.

I see so many comments all the same about this "ideology of victimology". Females with family values rejecting feminism saying they are not victims. Mothers who want to educate their daughters about sex themselves rather than a syllabus of smut. Men afraid of getting involved because the risks are too high.

 to be in college  today or graduating college is different.  If you are female,  black, disabled, and lesbian you hold 4 aces in your hand for purposes of debating or hiring. being a white man is fine if your career is already established and u can count on the females in your friends and family not to have you imprisoned for rape if you forget to seek consent before touching them or they had a glass of wine or change of heart. but this is the reality facing the young male today. Hes playing for his life holding a dud hand. politicians and govts on the right are just as responsible as those on the left in allowing this state of affairs,  but the driving force of these policies is out of academia and this is seen as entirely left Which is why reverand jacksons sympathies strike a chord for a lot of people out there.

Your bitterness about your divorce and inability to deal are showing, Bobbo. IMO, "reverand jacksons sympathies" deserve a baseball bat in the face. Yet the people of the church in South Carolina have taken a much higher road than the one of which I am capable: many of them, and their families have already forgiven the shooter.  That's what their faith calls them to do, rather than respond in kind and help the shooter achieve his own objectives, to foment a race war.

Just more preaching from the pulpit of white male victimhood. The xenophobic, Christopath right in this country has an extensive history of playing the victim card. Victim, victim, victim, while enjoying all the benefits of white make privilege. Sickening, really.

Consider exactly what sort of cowardice it takes for a criminal to enter a house of God and slaughter innocent people engaged in the study of scripture. This what we're talking about.

I feel I've wasted my time responding to yours. But this is the exactly the sort of pernicious ignorance that must be, and will be responded to in kind as long as I am around. Every single one of our liberties in this country is under attack from a fascist right-wing, intent on turning every one of us in the service, all under the banner of libertarianism, which when translated to cases means, "a poor man has as much right as a rich man to go out and buy a million-dollar air schedule to promote his ideas." Or, variously, "a rich man has the same right as a poor man to sleep in a cardboard box, or under a bridge."
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2015, 06:21:16 AM »
Quote
Your bitterness about your divorce and inability to deal are showing, Bobbo

Please Surly, Lighten up.

This sort of nastiness is uncalled for; hardly appropriate conduct towards a member that shares with us personal details of his life.

May I point out that Uncle Bob's remarks on this thread are devoid of this sort of tactic.   Thank You, GO

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2015, 06:54:15 AM »
Jacksons twitter  post says that what he said it may be religious but not ruling out racial were made on thursday. its then a lie to claim he ignored what later became known and denied it was race related. The rest of the media comments quoted are probably following some top down directive to not incite more racial tension and possible violence, it seems insinuated they are giving tacit approval to the crime and thats a crazy conspiracy theory.

who cares that a christian pastor takes the bibles condemnation of being gay literally and seriously you ask? You do. You posted a smear on him which raised the issue unrelated to the massacre and called him subhuman based on that. what kind of upstart heterosexual male doesnt know to biw his head and check his privilege when trumped by lgbt? 

Yes it is a horrible crime But the only person to straight away make it about partisan politics here was you. Everything boils down to left vs right sjw fascism instead of dealing with people being traditional and rejecting progressivism as a perversion when it goes so far as to really be perverse in places. White woman gets somewhere by faking being black,  young people insisting they are female not male as a way out of needing to check their priviledge,  feminist lawyers speaking out about the kangaroo courts against men after their own sons are accused,  presenting the facts about unfair laws that dont directly affect me and if i talk about this i must have skin in the game right... wrong. I dont need skin in the game to call it as I see it on sexism just like u dont need to be poor or black to believe in those causes,  but because im non-alligned i dont need to pay lip service to any party line. 
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline Eddie

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2015, 08:54:53 AM »
When something like this happens, all the nut jobs looking for a bully pulpit rush out to be quoted on TV. Another example of never letting a crisis go to waste. Jackson is a moron.

But your attacks on libertarian ideas deserve deserve a little discussion.



I harbor libertarian thoughts in my heart, and I steadfastly believe corporations should be illegal, and are at the heart of all that is wrong in this world.

I believe a great deal of the money spent on public infrastructure is being misspent, at a time when we need to be building a new infrastructure that will work in a world with far fewer energy inputs.

I believe education at every level should be free, but merit-based.

I believe that if the playing field were leveled by eliminating globalism, which is based on labor arbitrage, that wages would adjust to a level far closer to fair exchange.

I believe in taking care of the sick and the elderly, but I think sickness and dying are a part of human life that we cannot eliminate, and that we should not dedicate the lions share of whatever surplus we create to those purposes.

I believe we should stop buying stocks and bonds and let Wall Street deal with the consequences. Stocks are a gamble on financial profiteering, and bonds are the financing instrument for wars.

Worker safety laws have evolved to protect workers in corporate jobs. Without corporations, they wouldn't even be necessary. Nobody in a small business wants one of his key people to be hurt, and will not put them at risk. They are too valuable and training is too difficult. Besides, in a local business,workers work in the same workspace as the owners, and are subject to the same risks.

When organizations, governments and other large bodies of humans get so big that all the principals are not acquainted with one another, then voting loses its meaning. Universal suffrage sounds nice until you think about how easy it is to vote for your own financial interest and fuck the other guy (or the next generation). I don't favor ending the voting rights act, but I fully recognize a majority of the voters these days are pathetically stupid. Let them decide what''s best for you maybe, but not me.









« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 09:08:43 AM by Eddie »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2015, 10:11:11 AM »


Okay, let's look at this.

Let's start with the last one.

22% College Graduates

 In order for someone to even dedicate any brain cells toward deciding whether one is a "Something"...whether "Something" might be a Socialist, or a Libertarian, or an anything besides a Democrat or a Republican (which we're all taught from birth we should be one or the other, and that it's okay to switch, as long as you stay in the club), one would have to be able to dedicate some time to considering what camp one would belong in.

College is a time when people traditionally find time to do things like that. Because it's a time in life, and a place (the university)  when and where, traditionally at least, people are encouraged to think about ideas and beliefs, and to exercise critical thinking. I was first exposed to libertarian ideas in college, around 1974, when I read Heinlein. At the time, I wasn't ready to really delve deeply into the thought process. Frankly, I was interested in finding well-paying work, which didn't seem to be easy for me, even back then. But that's where I was first exposed to the ideas, which simmered on the back burner for a long time.

So 22% of libertarians are college educated. The national population average for a bachelor's  degree is about 30% now, but it was 26% ten years ago, before we blew up the student loan bubble. So libertarians aren't outside the norm too far there, actually. I'm surprised it isn't higher, but I expect that's because a large number of people who self-identify as Libertarian (with the big L) don't really know what the hell they're talking about.

I know there is a long heritage in this country of Big Thoughts coming from autodidacts (Eric Hoffer comes to mind) but it seems like that was more common when American grunt work paid better. Now workers are too tired to write, I guess.

51% under the age of 35

Half libertarians under 35. That means half over 35. Where's the take-away?

I know that older people lean Republican and younger people lean Democrat according to Pew and others, but nobody I can find really breaks down the traditional parties by age. They are both turning off younger voters today. Is that a surprise? Not to me.

69% Male

Because females are the nurturing sex, this does not surprise me. Males value freedom. Women value security and want to see everyone get fed and clothed and housed.

85% White

The Republican party is 89% white. But the pesky fact remains that white people are the most politically diverse ethnic group, more so than blacks or hispanics. Look it up.

Here's the deal as I see it.

The people you're hating on with these posts really aren't true libertarians anyway. They are the same old vicious greedheads Hunter was warning us about 40 years ago. They are essentially, all those people for whom the status quo seems to represent the best of all possible worlds. People who feel like they have something, and want to hold on to what they have.

People who want to redistribute wealth generally see that as ill-gotten wealth coming back to them and theirs. There is some truth to that, but it's never as simple as those people would like it to be. There are real problems that come up. We're living some of those problems now.

Small l libertarians, at heart, are the same people who bailed on civilization and moved to the frontier to live, 150, 200 years ago. They want to build a life less controlled, with the freedom that comes from not being too cramped and legislated. They want to build a decent life built on their own efforts, and they don't see the need for a government that micro-manages every aspect of their existence. They don't love corporations any more than they love government.

The ones who call themselves libertarian, but aspire to be hedge fund managers, those people are NOT real libertarians. Tea Party assholes are Not real libertarians. They are Corporates, pure and simple. Greedheads. Real libertarians are not the people always trying to cut themselves a bigger piece of the pie. They just want a little space to live and be left alone.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 10:20:41 AM by Eddie »
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2015, 04:00:29 PM »
Surly,
I think you are 100% right. However, I do not think the Libertarians are the main problem with all the issues they refuse to address honestly.

I think the problem is Empathy Deficit Disorder. As Eddie pointed out, there are several graduations of attitudes and behaviors that display the "leave me the fuck alone", "I didn't cause your poverty", "fuck you"  "etc." mindset among Libertarians. Many people do not become Libertarians because they buy into the "greed is good" Empathy Deficit. 

The "Libertarian" label itself, at least to me, is highly misleading and Orwellian. Many people may join simply because they see the encroachment of big government and feel threatened by it. Nobody likes to be told what to do.

But any detailed and thorough analysis of movements that seek to define "government" as "the problem" (this is certainly NOT limited to Libertarians) always will expose the mens rea power grab of business elites behind it.

Nevertheless, although I honor your efforts to expose this, it is futile to try to convince Libertarians that the language has been corrupted for the purpose of providing coercive power and profits for the benefit of big business bureaucracies (that do EXACTLY what the Libertarians from Mises on down have claimed that "big government" does.).

It is oxymoronic to claim that it's "okay" and "praiseworthy good business" for Walmart to make billions by paying "free market wages" when the strategy used to DO THAT by Walmart is to get BIG GOVERNMENT to take up the wage deficit slack with SNAP and WIC and so on. That's GREED IS GOOD Empathy Deficit Disorder in action, NOT "big government regulation" or "free market sanctity of contracts". So YEAH, it's ORWELLIAN all the way.

Libertarians claim it's just an improper application of the Libertarian philosophy (as Eddie seems to believe). Well, I disagree. No other political party claims that selfishness is a virtue that helps keep food on the table and enables people and society to prosper. But I respect their honesty. I am certain that greed based empathy deficit is the driving force behind the Democratic and Republican parties, regardless of what the apologists for those parties claim.

Nevertheless, ANY defense of greed is destructive to our body and our soul. Selfishness is not justified within one's family. We can all agree on that. But all humans are really a part of one family. Therefore, it is wrong to try to make a virtue out of that vice.

The root cause of all these movements that defend big business ethics free behavior by claiming it's the government and all those "freeloaders" out there wanting to take money from the middle and upper classes that is the problem is EMPATHY DEFICIT DISORDER. Some Libertarians might not suffer from it. But the people from any party, Democrat, Republican, Green or Libertarian that do really ARE THE PROBLEM.


Empathy Deficit Disorder is quite old in human history.


EDD has two salient aspects; the first one is a lack of empathy, of course.

But the second one, which is not so obvious until you delve into the amazingly vigorous EDD refutation of responsibility for other people's woes, is the mens rea complicity by the person with EDD for those very woes other people are suffering.

The person with EDD is fully convinced that anything done to help the downtrodden poor is NOT a good idea (beyond lip service and token displays of "charity" to provide the appearance of empathy  ;)) and anything the EDD person is partially or wholly responsible for that increases the misery, poverty and deaths of the downtrodden is good business. Therefore, the EDD person will seek to justify harming others for profit, using all kinds of mendacity, dissembling and double talk.



Empathy Deficit Disorder is quite old in human history.

"Technical knowledge of Carrying Capacity will not save us; only a massive increase in Caring Capacity will." -- A. G. Gelbert

« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 06:46:49 PM by agelbert »
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2015, 06:05:03 PM »
When something like this happens, all the nut jobs looking for a bully pulpit rush out to be quoted on TV. Another example of never letting a crisis go to waste. Jackson is a moron.

But your attacks on libertarian ideas deserve deserve a little discussion.



I harbor libertarian thoughts in my heart, and I steadfastly believe corporations should be illegal, and are at the heart of all that is wrong in this world.

I believe a great deal of the money spent on public infrastructure is being misspent, at a time when we need to be building a new infrastructure that will work in a world with far fewer energy inputs.

I believe education at every level should be free, but merit-based.

I believe that if the playing field were leveled by eliminating globalism, which is based on labor arbitrage, that wages would adjust to a level far closer to fair exchange.

I believe in taking care of the sick and the elderly, but I think sickness and dying are a part of human life that we cannot eliminate, and that we should not dedicate the lions share of whatever surplus we create to those purposes.

I believe we should stop buying stocks and bonds and let Wall Street deal with the consequences. Stocks are a gamble on financial profiteering, and bonds are the financing instrument for wars.

Worker safety laws have evolved to protect workers in corporate jobs. Without corporations, they wouldn't even be necessary. Nobody in a small business wants one of his key people to be hurt, and will not put them at risk. They are too valuable and training is too difficult. Besides, in a local business,workers work in the same workspace as the owners, and are subject to the same risks.



Most of which sounds pretty reasonable and common sense. In theory, where everything works.

Here's what I found as the  definition for libertarianism. Always good to start by defining your terms:

Quote
Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgement.

The problem with theoretical  Libertarianism is that it always and everywhere devolves into warlordism. You can see this playing out in California, in Rancho Santa Fe, as the wealthy have increased their water bills by 8% in the teeth of a pernicious drought, asserting that if they have the money to pay, they should be able to water their lawns and fill their pools as suits them. Libertarianism.  And you have ahead of Nestlé asserting that, " Access to water is not a universal human right,"  at a time when he bottles and resells California water.  My problem with libertarianism is that it appeals primarily to the young, stupid, and ignorant of history. By whom I specifically refer to a couple of my nephews, each "fedora libertarians,"  who get to the part about limited laws, limited regulation, and personal liberty (especially the freedom to smoke pot) and stop short of considering the implications.  Which always go to the boot of some Duke or local warlord on your neck.

 Here's another point:  you don't have to be a libertarian to be for personal liberty. The government's overreach and desecration of most of the Bill of Rights is something that both so-called "progressives" and libertarians could make common cause on, if they would talk to one another. The problem that is, in this country, libertarian turns into some variant of the Tea Party, where one moment a candidate (or worse, officeholder)  will say something that appears to make perfectly good sense, and the next moment make an assertion that seems to have been whispered in their ear by their handler from the planet Zorg. 


Quote
The Tea Party movement is generally considered to be conservative, libertarian,[1] and populist.[2][3][4] The Tea Party movement is a political movement that advocates reducing the U.S. national debt and federal budget deficit by reducing U.S. government spending and taxes.

You get to see plenty of these in Texas: Joe Barton, Ted Cruz, Blake Farenthold, Louie Gohmert, for starters.

 The problem with the balanced budget and national debt part is that these were these always want to balance the budget by starting with Social Security fund into which American workers and their employers have paid for generations, as opposed to taxing the wealthy at some rate approaching fairness, or taxing corporations, or doing anything about corporate inversions. Those are always verboten. As are the sweetheart deals for arms manufacturers. Because as we all know, war is good for business. So, if you're working person in this country, and you find yourself voting Republican, you demonstrated yourself unable to understand basic economic issues.

 This in no way suggests that the Democrats are any better. Democrats have largely become what Republicans used to be, enablers of Wall Street criminals, coddlers of banksters and of a variety of plots to further impoverish the people of this country, including the latest monstrosity, fast track for TPP.  And in many ways, it is always been thus, at least for most of our lifetimes. What is changed is our growing awareness of what the landscape looks like. The following quote is as accurate today as when it was uttered 50 years ago:

Quote
“There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party … and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat.”
― Gore Vidal

I do take some issue with your statement:

Quote
When organizations, governments and other large bodies of humans get so big that all the principals are not acquainted with one another, then voting loses its meaning. Universal suffrage sounds nice until you think about how easy it is to vote for your own financial interest and fuck the other guy (or the next generation). I don't favor ending the voting rights act, but I fully recognize a majority of the voters these days are pathetically stupid. Let them decide what''s best for you maybe, but not me.

You can tell from my body of work that I do not yet believe that voting loses its meaning. I certainly understand that it may seem like a meaningless ritual too many, and I confess to having had those thoughts myself. I too have railed at the other pointlessness of it. But I am moved  by the fact that so much effort and treasure  is expended to shape, reduce, direct, influence, restrict, and control the count of the votes that I am convinced that voting is, in fact, the only thing left that really does matter.  Those who would control us need the vote. as we see the tools of propaganda employed on a daily basis  in shaping it, and controlling the narrative.

 if we do not allow for universal suffrage, then what method of government would you suggest? Smarter minds than ours have labored long and hard over this question, and have arrived upon some sort of parliamentary democracy for most advanced countries. I must admit that in some countries  a king might be better. But I'd rather have more voters than less, stupid or no.  I'll put my faith in the law of large numbers.

 Always and everywhere, common people wish to be left alone, to a living, to raise and love their families and to live their lives with a minimum of interference from a busybody state eager to mind them for fees.  And always and everywhere, it is the business of the state to overcome those desires and to probe every orifice for cash.  So I suggest that libertarianism  has nothing unique to offer in this regard.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints/ antidote
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2015, 06:11:32 PM »
Quote
Your bitterness about your divorce and inability to deal are showing, Bobbo

Please Surly, Lighten up. This sort of nastiness is uncalled for; hardly appropriate conduct towards a member that shares with us personal details of his life.

May I point out that Uncle Bob's remarks on this thread are devoid of this sort of tactic.   Thank You, GO

Behold this moment of moral uplift from the Forum's resident hypocrite. 1000 words in response and THIS is what you post?
Sure you do- because it's all you've got.

A quick look at the Golden Oxen greatest hits collection:

You politicize everything there is into your petty little world of left right politics.
Hate, class warfare, political divide are your stock and trade.
The Democrats were the party of segregation, and have morphed into the party of Bankster puppets. Grow up and live with it.
Liberal sicko is certainly an apt description you made of yourself Surly.
Defining and understanding the problem is the first step back to normalcy.
Perhaps it's just guilt that makes you that way, after all, The Democrats were the party of segregation.


And this just a couple of posts back. Haven't gone all the way back to where you've vomited all over your shirtfront, or even to "bummy licker," when you were cuddling with MKing. Didn't think I'd forget, did you?

Hurl invective like a little bitch, then try to retreat behind some veil of faux courtliness.
Your act is thoroughly exposed. "Grow up and live with it."

I could go on, but it's a waste of time and effort. But you want some Surly? You get some Surly.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints/corrective thoughts
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2015, 06:51:21 PM »
Surly,
I think you are 100% right. However, I do not think the Libertarians are the main problem with all the issues they refuse to address honestly.

I think the problem is Empathy Deficit Disorder. As Eddie pointed out, there are several graduations of attitudes and behaviors that display the "leave me the fuck alone", "I didn't cause your poverty", "fuck you"  "etc." mindset among Libertarians. Many people do not become Libertarians because they buy into the "greed is good" Empathy Deficit. 

The "Libertarian" label itself, at least to me, is highly misleading and Orwellian. Many people may join simply because they see the encroachment of big government and feel threatened by it. Nobody likes to be told what to do.
//
Nevertheless, ANY defense of greed is destructive to our body and our soul. Selfishness is not justified within one's family. We can all agree on that. But all humans are really a part of one family. Therefore, it is wrong to try to make a virtue out of that vice.

I appreciate your comments.

 As I replied to Eddie, all of us want to be left to the fark alone to live our lives, raise our families, and use our talents as best we may without interference or meddling from the corporate state or its many, many agents.

Labels may well not be ultimately useful. Nevertheless people use them and insist on them, so what are we to do? Indeed, doesn't the idea of being for liberty sound like something you would sign on for? I know I would.  Yet "libertarianism" in the US falls primarily under the "tea party" rubric, and these people represent brutish and empathy-free points of view that I find heinous, and oppose with every fiber of my being. Such that I put my ass in the streets over it.

 Ultimately, people on both sides of this divide will find themselves talking past one another, insistent that they and they alone have full purchase on the truth.  Your diagnosis of "empathy deficit disorder" describes a sickness of the soul, fueled by a materialist society whose only ethics are winning at all costs, a tender concern for the bottom line, and a "what if you done for me lately? concern for expenses"  All of which to my mind makes hope Francis's encyclical this week that much more potent.  Casting concern for climate change in moral terms is absolutely what is needed at this time in our so-called development.

Whether it is enough, or soon enough, or will make a difference remains to be seen.  But that moment Thursday was a great moment be alive.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Palloy

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2015, 07:07:03 PM »
Quote
AG: I think the problem is Empathy Deficit Disorder.

I largely agree with that, except that I would use the Sociopath label rather than EDD (is that your own label, or does it have wider currency?)

You take it as agreed that sharing/caring amongst families is the norm, but their are plenty of examples of families torn apart due to lack of it.  As you widen the circle to extended family, it almost disappears. And when you widen it to all the people in your neighbourhood, including the homeless, drunks, drug addicts, gambling addicts, and criminals, it is only the exceptional do-gooders in society that care.  The rest want more Law and Order, in the hope that the poor/dispossessed/alienated will be locked up out of sight and out of mind.  Starving/refugee Africans don't stand a chance.

More empathy would be a solution, but where is it to be found in nature?  Some suggest the relatively early onset of menopause, is not selected against because the grandparent generation are there for backup, should the parents die early.  This implies that we shouldn't expect empathy to extend much further than that. 

Others suggest the "local tribe" size of 100-150 is the limit of empathy.  A tribe of 100 would have maybe 60 children, 10 young adults, 25 parents and 5 grandparents, so the male-only "tribal council" would number about 15, of differing status, of which maybe 6 were leaders.  Anyone who has tried to run meetings would know that 6 is about the limit for efficiency - anything over that breaks into factions.

Thus politics at County, State, Federal and World levels is never going to work for everyone's benefit properly.  When the UN issues the Declaration of Human Rights, enshrining the right to be free from torture and exploitation, it's just a joke.  We're just not able to empathise that much. 
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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2015, 08:03:21 PM »
Quote
AG: I think the problem is Empathy Deficit Disorder.

I largely agree with that, except that I would use the Sociopath label rather than EDD (is that your own label, or does it have wider currency?)

You take it as agreed that sharing/caring amongst families is the norm, but their are plenty of examples of families torn apart due to lack of it.  As you widen the circle to extended family, it almost disappears. And when you widen it to all the people in your neighbourhood, including the homeless, drunks, drug addicts, gambling addicts, and criminals, it is only the exceptional do-gooders in society that care.  The rest want more Law and Order, in the hope that the poor/dispossessed/alienated will be locked up out of sight and out of mind.  Starving/refugee Africans don't stand a chance.

More empathy would be a solution, but where is it to be found in nature?  Some suggest the relatively early onset of menopause, is not selected against because the grandparent generation are there for backup, should the parents die early.  This implies that we shouldn't expect empathy to extend much further than that. 

Others suggest the "local tribe" size of 100-150 is the limit of empathy.  A tribe of 100 would have maybe 60 children, 10 young adults, 25 parents and 5 grandparents, so the male-only "tribal council" would number about 15, of differing status, of which maybe 6 were leaders.  Anyone who has tried to run meetings would know that 6 is about the limit for efficiency - anything over that breaks into factions.

Thus politics at County, State, Federal and World levels is never going to work for everyone's benefit properly.  When the UN issues the Declaration of Human Rights, enshrining the right to be free from torture and exploitation, it's just a joke.  We're just not able to empathize that much. 

Palloy,
I got the term EDD from Robert Reich, who was the first (I believe) to write about it. He defines it, not as a form of criminal insanity like a psychopath or sociopath, but something less obvious and far more ubiquitous. He pins that label on conservatives. I think that's too narrow.

I certainly agree that there is a lack of empathy. I disagree that it is hardwired. I believe it has been deliberately adorned with all sorts of mendacious double talk and cheap rationalizations in order to get more people to buy into a greed is good world view that profits the business elites.

The media, of course, pushes the view that beneath the THIN veneer of the civilized individual is a raging monster out to tear his or her fellow humans apart for the hell of it (i.e. "resources").

The evidence is contrary to that 'fuck your buddy' world view. Please don't compare us to lions and tigers and so on. WE are SELF AWARE. We KNOW what the consequences of our actions are. We do NOT operate on instinct. So ALL analogies about the hunt and tooth and claw have no place in the discussion.

SOMEBODY has made a lot of money out of keeping us at odds with each other. THAT is the reality, whether we want to accept that or not.

The Dunbar number aside, we have the internet. We are talking from thousands of miles away. We ARE expanding our empathy in ways that were hitherto impossible. THAT is a THREAT to the profit over people and planet dysfunctional status quo.

We cannot throw our hands up and say we are a bunch beasts that deserve our extinction because we can't get along.

Maybe that's true. But do you really think that if the EDD elite were themselves convinced that a massive increase in empathy is sine qua non to our survival, they would not take steps to DEMONIZE Empathy Deficit in all it's greed based, violence based and racist aspects? OF COURSE they would.

Maybe it is too late. Maybe EDD is so far advanced among the elite that all they can come up with is what you claim is the only way to have a society governed by empathy (the Dunbar number).

Do you realize that the Dunbar number "math" DICTATES that humanity MUST BE CULLED for our species to survive because we JUST CANNOT GIVE A FUCK about each other when our community has more than 300 or so people in it?

Ponder that, Palloy. If the Dunbar number is IT, then the elite are planning to off 99% of humanity in order to "save" it.

I do not think we are so limited in our caring capacity.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 08:35:46 PM by agelbert »
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Libertarian Ideas and Viewpoints
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2015, 08:20:16 PM »
Surly,
I think you are 100% right. However, I do not think the Libertarians are the main problem with all the issues they refuse to address honestly.

I think the problem is Empathy Deficit Disorder. As Eddie pointed out, there are several graduations of attitudes and behaviors that display the "leave me the fuck alone", "I didn't cause your poverty", "fuck you"  "etc." mindset among Libertarians. Many people do not become Libertarians because they buy into the "greed is good" Empathy Deficit. 

The "Libertarian" label itself, at least to me, is highly misleading and Orwellian. Many people may join simply because they see the encroachment of big government and feel threatened by it. Nobody likes to be told what to do.
//
Nevertheless, ANY defense of greed is destructive to our body and our soul. Selfishness is not justified within one's family. We can all agree on that. But all humans are really a part of one family. Therefore, it is wrong to try to make a virtue out of that vice.

I appreciate your comments.

 As I replied to Eddie, all of us want to be left to the fark alone to live our lives, raise our families, and use our talents as best we may without interference or meddling from the corporate state or its many, many agents.

Labels may well not be ultimately useful. Nevertheless people use them and insist on them, so what are we to do? Indeed, doesn't the idea of being for liberty sound like something you would sign on for? I know I would.  Yet "libertarianism" in the US falls primarily under the "tea party" rubric, and these people represent brutish and empathy-free points of view that I find heinous, and oppose with every fiber of my being. Such that I put my ass in the streets over it.

 Ultimately, people on both sides of this divide will find themselves talking past one another, insistent that they and they alone have full purchase on the truth.  Your diagnosis of "empathy deficit disorder" describes a sickness of the soul, fueled by a materialist society whose only ethics are winning at all costs, a tender concern for the bottom line, and a "what if you done for me lately? concern for expenses"  All of which to my mind makes hope Francis's encyclical this week that much more potent.  Casting concern for climate change in moral terms is absolutely what is needed at this time in our so-called development.

Whether it is enough, or soon enough, or will make a difference remains to be seen.  But that moment Thursday was a great moment be alive.

Surly,
Thank you. I have screamed myself hoarse about the Libertarian cognitive dissonant defense of greed for years.

But as the Pope and you and millions of others, including yours truly  ;D, have said over and over in so many words: The morality shown by caring for the environment and each other (empathy) is just CFS. It's biosphere MATH! It's fucking OBVIOUS to a species that wants to avoid extinction.

But if you've made a lot of money from divide et impera, it's a tough pill to swallow. If TPTB don't swallow it, their greed, stubbornness, arrogance and stupidity (EDD) will be inscribed on the Homo SAP species tombstone.

Because it's a 180 DEGREE FLIP IN ATTITUDE REQUIRED FOR OUR SURVIVAL, the elites simply may not be capable of it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 08:32:27 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
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Offline Golden Oxen

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John Boehner – the Most Evil Dictator in the History of Congress
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 04:36:54 PM »
                                                     

John Boehner is one good reason why there should be a law that if a state continues to elect someone who will destroy the nation, that state should be ejected from the union until its comes to its senses. California gave us the corrupt Dianne Feinstein, which is reason enough to hand it back to Mexico and say please take it back – we are sorry. Ohio has sent Boehner, who is the poison pill, to destroy the Republican Party for 2016.

Boehner is perhaps the most corrupt House Speaker ever. No bill can come to the floor without his palm being greased. Boehner has sold out the country numerous times, but the worst of it is he acts like a dictator. He removes anyone from any committee who dares to disagree with him. Boehner retaliates and punishes anyone who votes against him in his own party. This is so anti-Democratic it is off the charts. We elect people to REPRESENT US, not to do as Boehner commands. The fact that Boehner sees it as his kingdom warns us that this is politics at its very worst. It is a shame we cannot hand Ohio to Canada and say here – take him please.

It is Boehner who will PREVENT Rand Paul from ever becoming the Republican candidate. I am constantly asked why I do not run for President. I respond by saying they have no idea what is really involved. Boehner would not even allow Ron Paul’s name to be placed into nomination at the Republican Convention, despite the fact that the people of some states had so voted. Boehner is by far the MOST EVIL politician I have ever encountered in Washington, whereas Hillary Clinton is probably the most corrupt, and Obama is the most incompetent, this trio will go down in history. If Hillary is elected, the medical hospitals and insurance companies will buy their way to more money and Hillary will bring massive tax increases.

So our forecast for a sharp rise in Third Party activity and the split will come from the Republicans, well you just met the man who will be the cause of that trend – John Boehner. Please Ohio, go your own way just take him with you.

 http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/33930  :icon_study:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 04:46:03 PM by Golden Oxen »

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   Yanis Reveals EU Denial of any Right of the People to Vote


                                             

Greece’s Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has come out and revealed the quite shocking and anti-Democratic events that took place during the last Eurogroup meeting. First, they do hate Yanis’ guts for he does understand far more about the economy than anyone in Brussels. Any further discussions they demand will be without him. What led to the EU breaking off was exactly what we reported previously – they do not want any member state to EVER allow the people to vote on the Euro. Brussels has become a DICTATORSHIP and is so arrogant without any just cause that they know better than the people.

We are watching the total collapse of Democracy and the birth of a new era – Economic Totalitarianism from Arrogant people who are totally clueless beyond their own greed for power and money.

 http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/34115 :icon_study:

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   Yanis Reveals EU Denial of any Right of the People to Vote

Yanis' FULL OPEN LETTER from his Blog is UP as Feature Article on the Diner Blog Homepage.

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