AuthorTopic: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis  (Read 6790 times)

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   gc2smOff the keyboard of RE



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   Published on the Doomstead Diner on September 8, 2015



   money-burning



   Discuss the results at the Survey Table inside the Diner



   As our Global Economic System spins downward here, one of the most important near-term questions is what money will work and for how long?



   When the initial phase of the economic collapse got underway in 2008, numeous pundits including John Williams of Shadow Stats, the Tyler Durdens from Zero Hedge and Speedy Gonzalo Lira all predicted imminent Hyperinflation of the Dollar resulting from Quantitative Easing by Da Fed, which never occurred.



   In recent weeks however, we have seen big moves in various currencies from around the world, mostly depreciating against the Almighty Dollar.  Even the Chinese removed the peg of the Yuan/Renminby to the Dollar and depreciated their currency, to attempt to remain competitive in the export market with other cheap labor countries. Venezuela's currency is rapidly approaching worthlessness, and the Brazilian Real is starting to look like their old Cruzeiros.  As far as the developing world is concerned, it's a Race to the Bottom these days.



   Far as the individual is concerned though, it's important to know which currencies will fall in value fastest, and of course try to have savings in currencies which will last longest.  There are location problems with this of course, since say if you hold Swissies but live in Montana, it's unlikely the local Walmart will take your Swissies for a Can of Beans.  Even if you do believe the Chinese are going to Inherit the Earth, is holding Renminby a good idea?



   What about the Precious Metals?  Will they be functional as currency once the last of the current Fiat regimes collapses?



   Your opinions on these crucial questions of collapse are solicited in this week's Collapse SurveyTM.



   TAKE THE CURRENCY COLLAPSE SURVEY HERE



   survey-saysNow onto the results from last week's survey, The Refugee Crisis Survey!



   

   The Refugee Crisis has been the HOT Topic in the world of Collapse over the last week.  Besides myself, Tom Lewis (Daily Impact), Jason Heppenstall (22 Billion Energy Slaves) and Jim Kunstler (Clusterfuck Nation) all weighed in on this topic, along with numerous other articles around the web, both from MSM and Alternative Media sources.



   Here on the Diner, we identified this problem fairly early on in the Official Refugee Thread, begun by Eddie in May of 2015.  It has of course escalated substantially since then, and we chronicled the escalation over the last few months in that thread.



   This month as it escalated, I got together with a few of my fellow Collapse Bloggers and Authors, Ugo Bardi (Resource Crisis), Steve Ludlum (Economic Undertow) and Norman Pagett (The End of More) to discuss this issue.



   



   After that, I also Ranted on the Refugee Crisis, since there is so much insanity going on with it this makes for good Rant Material.



   



   So this is the history to date of the Refugee Crisis, but what of the FUTURE?  What do Kollapsniks TM think will play out here, how and on what timeline?  So in additon to all the rest, I worked up a Refugee Crisis Survey to get some feedback and numbers on this one.



   Here is how it plays out according to Kollapsniks TM.



   Survey-refugee-1



   Survey-refugee-1



   If you were in charge on the Hungarian Border or Italian Beaches, what would be your First Choice for handling the Tsunami of Refugees from MENA?
































             
         

            Build Refugee Camps and solicit Food Aid from the Red Cross
         

            Increase Taxes to send Food Aid to their home countries and set up Refugee Camps there
         

            Shoot on sight any Refugees entering your country, including Women and Children
         

            Mine and Fence all Borders including harbors and beaches
         

            Shut down the Interrail between European Countries
         

            Ship them back to where they came from as soon as they arrive (you pay the shipping with your taxes)
         

            Give them all a Free Ticket to Germany or Sweden
         

            Standard Deviation
         

            Responses
         

            All Data
         

            25

            (32.05%)

         

            11

            (14.1%)

         

            13

            (16.67%)

         

            1

            (1.28%)

         

            0

            (0%)

         

            10

            (12.82%)

         

            18

            (23.08%)

         

            8.2
         

            78
         


   http://www.profit-over-life.org/teachers_guide/images/germany/buchenwald_kz/buchenwald_crematorium_bones.jpg About 1/3rd of the respondents chose setting up Refugee Camps and soliciting aid from the Red Cross, which basically is the humane, traditional approach to this sort of situation.  However, when the numbers grow large, this methodology tends to break down pretty quickly.  In fact, it has broken down so quickly in Germany they shut down the borders in an attmept to control the problem, AND they are now housing at least some of the refugees at BUCHENWALD.  Yes, that's right, one of the most infamous of the Concentration Camps from WWII, along with Auschwitz and Teresenstadt, where at least one Czech Politician has suggested would be a good repository for these refugees.  What MESSAGE does this send, eh?



   The next most popular idea was to give all the refugees a Free Ticket to Germany or Sweden, which definitely would be a cheaper alternative then trying to house all of them.  This might have worked through Monday, when the Krauts shut down the border with Austria.  They clearly are not going to keep taking all comers, and neither I suspect will Sweden.



   The countries getting stuck with the refugees are those which simply do not have any real means to keep them out, Turkey currently has around 2 MILLION of them, and I'll bet Serbia is stacking up too.  These Refugee Camps are of course Terrorist Breeding Grounds, accidents waiting to happen.



   OK, on to Q2, a Yes/No question on whether Fences and Walls can do anything to resolve this problem.  This is basically split right down the middle amongst Kollapsniks TM.



   Survey-refugee-2



   How long before Migration begins in earnest out of California to escape drought and water depletion?
































             
         

            It has already begun.
         

            1 year
         

            3 years
         

            5 years
         

            10 years
         

            >10 years
         

            There will not be a migration out of California, water problems will be solved.
         

            Standard Deviation
         

            Responses
         

            All Data
         

            19

            (24.68%)

         

            5

            (6.49%)

         

            21

            (27.27%)

         

            14

            (18.18%)

         

            3

            (3.9%)

         

            3

            (3.9%)

         

            12

            (15.58%)

         

            6.95
         

            77
         


   Survey-refugee-3



   Is Wall & Fence building, mining harbors and deploying military personel to secure borders going to have a significant effect in preventing or slowing migrations?






















             
         

            Yes
         

            No
         

            Standard Deviation
         

            Responses
         

            All Data
         

            37

            (48.05%)

         

            40

            (51.95%)

         

            1.5
         

            77
         


   This is not a lot different than the Two Party problem of Repubtards vs Demodummies.  If you are anywhere near a 50-50 split, nothing gets done, no side has a clear majority and you get locked up in decision making on anything.  Anyone with a little MONEY can sway an election either way at the 50-50 line, you just need to buy a few votes or a few SCOTUS Judges.  See the Bush-Gore Election for this.



   My opinion on whether Fences and Walls are a good solution?



   hahahahahahahahahahahaha!



   It's a waste of time and money, has never worked in the past and won't work now either.  You can't man them and staff them economically and they are way easier to knock down then they are to build in the first place.



   Survey-refugee-4



   How long before the migration problem overwhelms the capacity of Europe to protect its borders and North America to seal the southern border with Mexico?






























             
         

            It has already been overwhelmed
         

            1 year
         

            5 years
         

            10 years
         

            >10 years
         

            The ability to prevent migration will not be overwhelmed, migration can always be prevented if you build and staff your defenses properly.
         

            Standard Deviation
         

            Responses
         

            All Data
         

            36

            (47.37%)

         

            10

            (13.16%)

         

            14

            (18.42%)

         

            4

            (5.26%)

         

            5

            (6.58%)

         

            7

            (9.21%)

         

            10.95
         

            76
         


   Now onto the text responses!  This is where it really gets interesting, because you start to see the ideological mindset at work here in various groups and types of people. :)



   Warning!  You may find some replies unpleasant!





   
















































































































































            What other option would you choose first to handle the Refugee problem?
         

            Anyone who exhibits aggressive behavior is sent back
         

            Arrest them and ship them home.
         

            Autonomous drones. Put chemical weapons back on the table.
         

            build refugee camps
         

            Citizenship and Integration
         

            Crucifixion sends a message that's hard to miss.
         

            electric wire
         

            encourage the USA to receive

            with open arms the "huddled

            masses"

         

            Enlist aid from other countries to send to MENA home countries
         

            Europe: Work out who can handle new immigrants best and how and be fair to all countries.

            But mainly: All those Middle Eastern countries that are doing nothing to help their neighbours, like Saudi Arabia, need to start taking the brunt of the burden.

         

            Find some agreement with other European countries to share the load more equally. Hire more people to process asylum requests.
         

            Forced sterilization of all politicians and their families.
         

            Give them guns and march them back to their own country
         

            Highlight the actual problem that the USA is the real problem in the press, at the UN, the Vatican and every other outlet. Boycott US products.
         

            Huge weapons tax on any manufacturer selling to the Middle East (like 50%)
         

            I would start a infrastructure project, like updating and maintaining all the rail roads through labor (not just machines), and give every refugee a right to stay, with a small plot of land, if they volounteer for the work
         

            In the longer term, quit interfering in foreign countries and making things worse.
         

            Increase bombing in their home countries so you don't need to shoot them when they get to the new one.
         

            Increase public awareness campaigns, try and get more people to donate to charities that support the refugee crisis, try to find jobs for some refugees
         

            Increasing taxes for aid would be my second choice from the list.
         

            It is irresponsible to just send them all to Germany or Sweden. The numbers of potential migrants from their home countries will never be depleted and so the "Tsunami" will never end (until Germany and Sweden are hellish shitholes)
         

            Labor camps, get them fixing infrastructure.
         

            lodge them in properties of value in excess of one million pounds sterling ,or European equivalent.
         

            Make sure they knew that their was their was not sanctuary to be found for them in the poorer countries.
         

            Poverty, injustice, over breeding, overpopulation, suffering, oppression, military rule, squalor, torture, terror, massacre: these ancient evils feed and breed on one another in synergistic symbiosis. To break the cycles of pain at least two new forces are required: social equity – and birth control. Population control. Our Hispanic neighbors are groping toward this discovery. If we truly wish to help them we must stop meddling in their domestic troubles and permit them to carry out the social, political, and moral revolution which is both necessary and inevitable.

            Or if we must meddle, as we have always done, let us meddle for a change in a constructive way. Stop every campesino at our southern border, give him a handgun, a good rifle, and a case of ammunition, and send him home. He will know what to do with our gifts and good wishes. The people know who their enemies are.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               Edward Abbey
            



            Pressure the UN and EU to pick up the slack and help out.
         

            Put them in China's Ghost Cities.
         

            Refuse entry
         

            Secure Western Syria with UN troops to include US & Russian. Take the fight to the Islamic state. Secure Syrians and Iraqis in there homeland.
         

            Ship them back.
         

            Shoot on sight, border mines
         

            Short of actively trying to prevent war in their countries in the first place, instead of encouraging it to profit from arms sales and reduced labour costs in Europe (we could all see this coming years ago):



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               Build Refugee Camps and Increase Taxes (probably not necessary) for food Aid here.
            



            Solve the problems in their home country
         

            Stop attacking other countries
         

            Stop bombing the bejesus out of their homes
         

            Stop imperialistic wars and the consumption of fossil fuels.
         

            stop the 'west' from funding the unrest. Tee heee…………….

            when living creatures are caged together the become stressed and eat each other. You are right, this is a wicked problem. As we knock hard against limits things cannot end with enough for all.

         

            Take out actors who are forcing people to migrate. Isis comes to mind.
         

            There is no good option
         

            try to lessen our government's involvement with generating rip-off of their country's resources.
         

            Try to solicit clerks from other European countries to help with processing the refugees
         

            UNCHR refugee camps close to home countries. Much cheaper and a chance to repatriate the refugees.
         

            Use nuclear weapons on north Africa to kill as many as possible.
         

            Warning shots.
         

            Well, since we gave up completely, long ago, on logic-driven "social policy" and most governments are treating their populations like shit through the use of barbaric policing, there is no real option. We're doomed to unthinking policies and to being told what we will accept. Obviously MENA could function better, but privileged people have benefitted from shitty exploitative global policies, so now they apparently, deserve to have their lives disrupted (even tho they had no real say in these policies). Anyone, from here on out, with stupid ideas to exploit others in ways that severely disrupts a decent way of life, should be jailed in public squares where the rest of us can spit on them and poke them with sticks. However, at this point, we're doomed.
         

            Wow what the fuck even is this survey.
         


    





   






















































































































































            Donald Trump has a platform of Deporting Migrants.  Can this platform be implemented, and if so how? (Text Response)
         

            Being a non US citizen I am not up to date on the platform itself.

            I can only see it ending in bodies though.

         

            Building a wall
         

            Don't know.
         

            Donald Trump is an incoherent fuckwit.
         

            Doubt it, too many leftie losers
         

            Enforce existing laws. Most will self deport.

            Use homeland security to hunt down and dump the rest in Mexico – regardless where they have come from.

         

            First you have to enforce the laws already on the books.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               The people who employ illegal migrants should be fines and imprisoned… the migrants will not come if their is nothing for them here.
            



               Then start making the deportation stream line and efficient.
            



            Give them back Califonia.
         

            he is a twat
         

            He will threaten them with his hair monster.
         

            His ideas will not work.
         

            I can only see this policy be executed on the condition that there is a false flag attack against the US that is blamed on Mexican terrorists. The attack would give cover for the mass deportation agenda that would never be acceptable to the majority of Americans.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               The plight of millions of

               Mexicans and Latinos being violently dispossessed of their property and liberty would not go unnoticed and something like a civil war could break out. With the massive amounts of jailed people combined with the ease of access to firearms, a radicalized resistance could quickly escalate into armed struggle on a huge scale.

            



               A huge migration of dispossessed people within Mexico could be disruptive to their politics as usual.
            



            I fear it would take a violent form, shipping migrants on huge boats, probably with mass casualties
         

            I have no idea what Trump's plan is
         

            I have no knowledge on the subject
         

            I think that platform is unworkable mostly.
         

            I've no idea. I'm not American so I don't know about this.
         

            Illegal migrants should be repatriated to their homelands. Mexico uses the US as a means to get rid of its poor and criminal class. Anyone with a criminal record needs to be sent back immediately as a good start. Build prisons in Mexico and send all these criminals we are supporting back to where they came from. I has to be cheaper. Pretty expensive jobs program here in the US.
         

            It can be implemented at the point of a gun. If enough people support the Donald the plan will be implemented, if not it will fail in a film at 11 extravaganza of tear gas riot police and screams of refugee lives matter.
         

            It will impede an already broke and overloaded systems and increase collapse.
         

            It will not be possible, there are too many migrants and attempts of deportation will result in violence.
         

            No
         

            No
         

            no
         

            No – he's blowing smoke
         

            No, it cannot. There is too much political opposition in the United States to do anything of scale no matter your political party/ideology.
         

            No, It's too late.
         

            No, there are too many
         

            No, there are too many migrants for that.
         

            No.
         

            No.
         

            NO.
         

            No. Congress would write and bill, make a law and then not fund it.
         

            No. It is an exercise in absurdity.
         

            No….he is a moron who thinks the presidency is about snapping his fingers and having others jump.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               He would be very unhappy with reality… and if fact has no desire to actually be POTUS, he is currently just drumming up free publicity for his brand.
            



            Not possible
         

            Not really. The Southwest is 30% Latin. If they ever start voting, the Trumps of the world will be barbecued on a spit



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               Se habla Espanol, ya'll.
            



            Probably not, and if it can, it's unethical and barbaric.
         

            Sure. Those who survive will try again, but it can be done.
         

            Trump's talking out his arse.
         

            Wall
         

            We are already deporting more under Obama than any past president. Can we realistically do more than that.
         

            What's the platform.
         

            Who.
         

            With 11 million "illegal" imigrants, the horse is out of the barn
         

            Yes, if they crossed the US, Mexico border, send them back.
         

            Yes, secret police.
         

            Yes, use of military to enforce border protection
         




   
















































































































































            How will Donald Trump handle internal migration problems from drought ravaged regions in the FSoA? (text response)
         

            
         

            Again as an outsider, I cannot see it ending peacefully. My guess would be that it would be "managed' by some sort of terrible 'disaster' where the administration could the provide assistance to the 'survivors'
         

            All he can do is give service. The cost of this is going to overwhelm the system.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               Their is no solution to this except a large population reduction.
            



            Bigger walls.
         

            Blame somebody else
         

            Brutality.
         

            Concentration camps
         

            Deport people back to the states they came from.
         

            Deportion
         

            Ditto question 5
         

            Don't know.
         

            Donald Trump AGAIN.!! FSoA pop will hold off migrating till they can get a good deal on the sale of their house; then it'll be too late cuz no one will be buying… That's when the hoards will finally migrate; with nothing. Then they'll be "the homeless" and we all know how we've come to treat "the homeless".
         

            Dont know
         

            Fail.
         

            Give them a straw AND free transport to the Great Lakes
         

            Going on Fox News and Blaming the victims.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               and building a gold plated tower…
            



            He can't, It's too much for him to figure out.
         

            He might conquer Canada and open up homesteading there.
         

            He will give speeches and after expressing two cents worth of sympathy he will tell them to get jobs.
         

            He will invariably do something profoundly stupid that makes the problem vastly worse.
         

            He will not address it
         

            He will threaten then with his hair monster.
         

            He won't need to
         

            He won't, because he won't be elected. Even Americans aren't that heartless and stupid as to let him take office.
         

            He'll run a solutions competition, and the winner will be a for-profit plan that will relocate millions of poor people into giant new suburb slums outside of exiting urban areas with more water resources. The slums will be built out of recycled steel shipping containers nicknamed Trumpholes.
         

            His people will think of something.
         

            I already mentioned that he is a twat
         

            I don't believe he will be elected. Assuming he is elected, I do not know enough of his platform to give a worthwhile response.
         

            I don't know
         

            I have no knowledge on the subject
         

            I think he will blame immigrants for taking the water and force them out.
         

            just like everything else he does, by saving the rich at the expense of the poor, through violence if needed
         

            lost in space
         

            Non issue
         

            Not a clue. Just following the 1986 regulations would help. California is destined to be a third world state in my opinion.
         

            Not at all
         

            nothing
         

            Put them in camps.
         

            Renounce the citizenship of all Hispanics and Blacks. Then implement 5.
         

            Sell the sw refugees condos in trump towers
         

            The same way the FSoA handles 92 million unemployed. Trailer parks hunger and rotten teeth.
         

            Whatever it is, it will be H-U-U-U-U-GE!
         

            Who.
         

            Why don't you ask Donald.
         

            You fired!
         

            You know, I'm starting to think this poll isn't completely neutral.
         




   































































































































































            If you were in charge, what policies would you put in place now to try and stem the tide of refugees all over the world? (text response)
         

            Actively try to prevent war in their countries in the first place, instead of encouraging it to profit from arms sales. And actual regulation of multinationals that operate from my home country instead of pretending they do not exploit workers and people abroad (and at home).
         

            As King of the World. Migration is a fact. It will happen as climate change begins to bite. Develop soft population growth controls and alter national boundaries/resource consumption to accomodate as many people as possible while working to decreace total population to a sustainable number through natural reductions. (Like this ever has a chance in hell of happening).
         

            Best to provide aid to their homelands and keep people home and with their own cultures. This will become increasing difficult though since the financial system is running on fumes and is really broke.
         

            Birth control for.the population forced sterilization of all elite and their families.
         

            Birth reduction/control.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               No new babies!!!
            



            Call an emergency meeting of the UN, find a way in which the whole world pitches in.
         

            Can't be done
         

            Deport liberals
         

            Deportations.
         

            Development of autonomous drones. Scrap traditional warfare conventions. There will be no way for humans to stop what's coming. It's time to call in the heartless machines.
         

            Don't stem it. People are getting killed and tortured. Build cheap housing for them, give them a tiny income, hire more police and schoolteachers to reduce the trouble they'll cause. Raise taxes to do all this. When natives complain that the refugees make life slightly harder for them, point out that asylum is a human right.
         

            Drop money instead of bombs.
         

            Educating women seems to be the best way to lower the birth rate. I'd try to educate and empower women in 3rd world countries.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               Too little too late, though.
            



            erect electric fences
         

            Get all NATO nations together, invade the MIddle East, gain full control of the region and develop it.
         

            I doubt it would take more than a few shots fired and people would be too afraid to try again.
         

            I think the only way we can really stop the migration refugees is to go to the route of the problem. We know why refugees are fleeing their birthplace. Why don't we do anything. They should feel safe. We should end these wars rather than capitalize on them and start them. Ending the source of the conflict would be the only measure I feel would significantly make refugees want to stay in their country.

            Another, harsher option would be to reduce the amount of pull factors that entice migrants and refugees. If we limited the amount of perks then surely less refugees would want to arrive in a country e.g. make them unable to have NHS covered healthcare until after a certain amount of time, make them unable to claim benefits until they have evidence that they have searched for a certain number of jobs in a certain period of time.

         

            I would give every person a basic income, instead of other benefits and government programs, which would be enough for survival (adapted to each country's standard of living) and simple living
         

            I wouldn't do this because refugees are human too and deserve to be somewhere safe. Just because they're not rich and powerful doesn't mean they don't deserve safety.
         

            I'm so tempted to say "wholesale takeover of one part of Middle East so that we could set up a working country there, for refugees and aid them to create a better country" but that's pipe dreams. As long as ISIS and Boko Haram etc are operating, there will be refugees and crisis. The only solution is to end the vast imbalance of rich vs. poor – worldwide implementation of high taxation of the top 10%; no country providing "havens" – then we'd have the money to help those who need assistance setting up their lives in a peaceful place. The crisis is due to rich and powerful sucking up the funds to pay for their fun.
         

            If I were "in charge" I would RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, and go spend the rest of the collapse in a suite in Las Vegas,play a fiddle for irony…and Bill the Koch Brothers for services rendered to pay for it all!
         

            Immediately dismiss the neocon cabal orchestrating US foreign policy and bring charges for war crimes against the lot. If the Empire of Chaos would stop its continuous policy of divide-and-rule, the political dimension of the refugee crisis would be mitigated. The coming climate change aspects would, of course, not be.
         

            IMPOSE strict food rationing on indigenous population. for travelers ,bring or grow your own or starve.Its going to happen anyway
         

            International military action to make their homelands safe and foreign aid to keep them from starving. I would form a team of experts to figure out where refugees can go that would cause the least amount of disruption in host countries and which would piss off the smallest number of people.
         

            It is too late.

            World population needs to be reduced uniformly and by a large amount.

            These issues are an obvious consequence of larger, overarching problems which have been known about for a long time.

            We are unfortunate to live in these times.

         

            My brain hurts when I think about it. Being a mother I am torn between wanting to nurture and save(if the numbers are not overwhelming, big if I know) versus getting the claws out to protect valuable resources for my kin. The level of pragmatic coolness with which I can speculate on 'solutions' is disquieting in a way.
         

            No policies will help, too late.
         

            no solution really, we are in overshoot phase
         

            Nothing
         

            Outlaw war.
         

            Politics is about interest, but we could all be fairer and make sure that those don't play fair suffer because of it.
         

            Put them in camps that provide 3 pots and a cot and nothing more.
         

            Rapid culling of the human herd to <1B may provide a viable path for the remainder. Otherwise, economic and environmental conditions continue to deteriorate to the point of no return for all. So let's just cut to the chase and whack the vast majority of the proles. It's gonna happen anyway.
         

            Renounce the UN Charter on Refugees.

            Pass a law making it a death penalty offense to be an illegal immigrant – regardless of age or gender.

            Rescind citizenship of ALL non Whites and Jews.

            Declare ALL non Whites and Jews without citizenship to be illegal immigrants.

            Implement the law without mercy, pity or compassion.

         

            Self solving problem we are in massive population overshoot, ecological collapse, a warming planet.
         

            Sink the boats
         

            Sink the boats!
         

            Stop bombing them and raping their natural resources.

            Arrest the bankers and captains of the Military Industrial Complex.

         

            stop Donald trump and idiocravy
         

            Stop fucking coming over or you will be shot.
         

            Stop imperialistic wars and the consumption of fossil fuels.
         

            Stop the deliberate creation of failed states such as Iraq, Syria,Ukraine.

            Who am I kidding. There is no steming this, we are all out of stems, no stems to be had, stemless.

         

            Stop the MIC from ceeating refugees. Mandatory sterilization all women after 1 child. Restoration agriculture.
         

            Stop the wars that's producing refugees in the first place. Someone smarter than me should be able to figure out how.
         

            Stop US military everywhere and stop pressuring Russia.
         

            There effectively is no way to stop people from trying to get to places that seem better than where they come from.



                
            



                
            



                
            



                
            



               The only thing that can be done is resolve some of the military conflicts; its the only thing about which we have any control (climate change is probably no longer in out control for the short term, anyway).
            



               Unfortunately, the conflicts continue tomultiply without any end in sight. The last round of interventionist policies of the early 2000s caused even more instability than the previous round of interventions in the mid 1990s.
            



               Is there anyone that seriously thinks more intervention is going to solve the conflicts.
            



            There is NO policy that can work now; world pops are too far into the destruction of what was. I certainly couldn't stop the current ripping apart of established, uniquely defined cultures and institutions, thereby forcing people to migrate. Nor could I force other uniquely defined functioning societies to accept overwhelming numbers of uniquely defined and foreign populations. Disrupting civilization ie social systems without rules except as defined by force of the now migrating hoards will always result in disorienting chaos and hostilities. Humans simply can't process, least of all assimilate drastic and dramatic demographic changes into everyday living. This is more of the typical shit started at "The Decider top" for private gains and paid for by the masses at "the bottom" by socializing the costs. Insulting thinking people who want some kind of orderly and comprehensive policies, by labeling them racists and xeno-phobes is only inciting anger. The human condition naturally resists chaos and fear of losing what's familiar. Inclusive empathy only stretches so far before people and systems break down. Another factor of decline and doom.
         

            There is no solution.
         

            Theres nothing that can be done.
         

            Try to find a solution to the problems in their original homes so that there is no need for migration.
         

            Walls. Military. Boarder Guards
         


   OK, that is what the sample of Kollapsniks TM thinks about this problem.



   What do I think about it?  Joe D asked this question when I dropped on the Survey:




      I made the following point in a text box in the survey and would love to hear more from you directly…that being to get from 8B to 4B to 1B people on the planet in less than two generations means lots of people will die unnaturally.  And if this is not only probable but also potentially beneficial to the remainder, why do all of our conversations revolve around minimizing death rather than

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2015, 10:01:19 AM »
The most interesting survey to date, because you can actually make some assumptions and possibly even accurately predict the future on this one.

My knee jerk response is that the Yen has to go first, and then the Euro. Until that's done, no amount of gold in China, and no amount of oil transactions being conducted in Reminbi will cause the dollar destruction Willie and people like that are predicting.

At the other end of the spectrum the Norwegian Krone looks good for the long haul. Little national debt and a good resource base puts Norway in the catbird seat, ultimately...but for now the fact that oil is that resource base is hurting the Krone. It will go down before it goes up.

The Swiss National Bank is extremely overleveraged, and the once good-as-gold CHF stands to go down with the Euro.

The Canadian Dollar is sucking wind due to oil price, and extraction costs say it won't come back strong.

Similar situation in Australia, with other mineral commodities dragging down the currency. Big resource base, though.

The Pound will go down with the Euro, and down even more if the US dollar tanks.

The various BRICS currencies obviously benefit from a dollar collapse. My big question is "could the PRC have a currency collapse of it's own?" One that isn't on anybody's radar? They look to be leveraged enough for it to happen, to me. If it did, I don't see the other BRIC players establishing a new currency hegemony AT ALL.





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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2015, 11:56:13 AM »
The most interesting survey to date, because you can actually make some assumptions and possibly even accurately predict the future on this one.

My knee jerk response is that the Yen has to go first, and then the Euro. Until that's done, no amount of gold in China, and no amount of oil transactions being conducted in Reminbi will cause the dollar destruction Willie and people like that are predicting.

At the other end of the spectrum the Norwegian Krone looks good for the long haul. Little national debt and a good resource base puts Norway in the catbird seat, ultimately...but for now the fact that oil is that resource base is hurting the Krone. It will go down before it goes up.

The Swiss National Bank is extremely overleveraged, and the once good-as-gold CHF stands to go down with the Euro.

The Canadian Dollar is sucking wind due to oil price, and extraction costs say it won't come back strong.

Similar situation in Australia, with other mineral commodities dragging down the currency. Big resource base, though.

The Pound will go down with the Euro, and down even more if the US dollar tanks.

The various BRICS currencies obviously benefit from a dollar collapse. My big question is "could the PRC have a currency collapse of it's own?" One that isn't on anybody's radar? They look to be leveraged enough for it to happen, to me. If it did, I don't see the other BRIC players establishing a new currency hegemony AT ALL.

Valid points Eddie, perfectly logical assumptions and perhaps correct. Let me just play devil's advocate with you, and try and explain why currency trading is so dangerous and conclusions about currency valuations impossible to accurately determine, even amongst studied full time professionals.

The most interesting survey to date, because you can actually make some assumptions and possibly even accurately predict the future on this one.

My knee jerk response is that the Yen has to go first


This is one everyone agrees on from James H Kunstler to all the touts on Wall street, plus you and I Eddie. But lets discuss it a bit further and see if we are not members of an extremely large crowd, not a wise place to be when it comes to markets usually.

Do you think the current price might already reflect the problems of this Island nation that are so universally agreed upon?

Have you thought about the fact that the Japanese citizenry are the least indebted of the major economies are flush with cash saving equaling 51% of their assets with no debt to speak of except mortgage debt.

Are you aware that the carry the most amount of insurance as well medical, life, cancer etc.

Have you and I pondered the currency enough to think about the fact that Japan is an island with no natural resources to speak of that imports most everything. Might I suggest the crash we have witnessed in oil, grains, metals, etc is of great benefit to this manufacturing powerhouse that is not recognized by the markets asleep in their bearish attitude.

Are these reasons to become bullish on the Yen, Maybe? Do they show another side to the Yen that most are ignoring, definitely yes.

Does pondering them show another side to the coin and temper one's bearishness, it does mine.

Is this a prediction that the Yen won't go down? NO  Is it a reminder that markets are a two way street? Yes

Let me try another to enhance my drift.

The Canadian Dollar is sucking wind due to oil price, and extraction costs say it won't come back strong.

You mentioned Norway in the same vein and I will include Mexico and Brazil as well. All nations endowed with natural resources and lots of oil.

Let's play the did you know game again. Do you know the difference between Mexico, Brazil, Norway oil and Canadian oil?

Mexico, Brazil and Norway's oil is owned by the governments and is run by government run multinational make believe corporations used as fronts to raise dough from the dim.

Canada's oil is mostly owned by real private investors, and is run and managed by real corporations, the Government has little say and does not own the assets.
 
So what you say, the tax revenue comes down and goes up with the oil price so what is the difference?

I say if you think about it from the view of employees and whose payroll they are on, capex expenditures, capital costs and interest on debt, that the Canadian Looney's tie to the oil price and natural resource sector is greatly exaggerated and may provide opportunity here at these very depressed levels.

Are you aware that there is a yield on the Looney as well?

Have you also considered the massive migration of people from China to Vancouver and that they have built another Hong Kong in that gorgeous city with strong family ties to their relatives in Hong Kong China?

Have you thought about the massive investments China has been making in Canada and it's resources and the fact it has been slowly increasing it Looney reserves while lowering it's dollar hoard?

Have you thought about Canada coming under the umbrella of US Nuclear might by it's sheer location with very little expenditure of it's own.

Did you consider it's ultra low population density and ability to attract wealthy educated immigrants relative to other countries?

Then one more to try and solidify my point.

The Euro.
Are you aware at who has been the greatest winner of the weak Euro? Germany

Have we thought out who created the Euro and Why? Germany

Have we considered who has the strongest world economy right now of the majors, and who has made the greatest strides in renewable energy? Germany.

Have you ever really thought was backbone of the Euro from which it gets it's power and influence as a major currency. Germany

Did you ever see more fucking nonsensical bull shit propaganda in your life trying to claim the fate of the Euro was tied to those crazy Greeks and their fucking clown open collar leaders? No, not me anyway.

Just mt two cents Eddie on what a fucking menagerie and deceptive indecipherable web fiat toilet paper is. When you get a true grasp of it, in all its grotesque Lunacy, one simple, ageless measurement appears. The money of Issac Newton and the Peasants of India. The flesh of the Egyptian Pharaohs, you know what I mean.


                                             



« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 12:32:29 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2015, 12:26:13 PM »
I love these discussions, GO. You have much to teach.

 I ,apparently, am not necessarily the best student...but I'm showing up for class anyway.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2015, 12:40:51 PM »
I like Canada's future prospects, but I don't think tar sands should be mined. It looks like it will at least be shut down for while, maybe not forever. My belief is actually that most fossil fuel resources will eventually be tapped. I differ from Nicole and Gail on that much.

I very much wish to buy some Canadian land while the arbitrage window is open, and I very well might do that. I see Canada as the land of the future for English speaking people, due to climate and resources.

I'd love to see stable  money of any form. Digital gold would be very simple to do now. It should take over...but it levels the playing field, so it won't be allowed. I opened a GoldMoney account a few years ago now...but decided Turk would get hamstrung by the banksters at every turn here in the US, so I didn't fund it. The whole time since then the dollar has been on a roll. But it can't go forever.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2015, 12:42:42 PM »
I love these discussions, GO. You have much to teach.

 I ,apparently, am not necessarily the best student...but I'm showing up for class anyway.

It's not knowledge Eddie, it's experience.

Have had the living shit beat out of me more than once in the fiat gambling houses. Thoughts of the poor house and going bust with a family to support keep you on your toes, you learn about the other side of the coin real well when Mother Market decides to give you a swift kick in the nuts. She is one mean nasty Skank when she turns on you. Will turn a genius into a shit head overnight, seen it myself many a time. 

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2015, 01:00:01 PM »
I like Canada's future prospects, but I don't think tar sands should be mined. It looks like it will at least be shut down for while, maybe not forever. My belief is actually that most fossil fuel resources will eventually be tapped. I differ from Nicole and Gail on that much.

I very much wish to buy some Canadian land while the arbitrage window is open, and I very well might do that. I see Canada as the land of the future for English speaking people, due to climate and resources.

I'd love to see stable  money of any form. Digital gold would be very simple to do now. It should take over...but it levels the playing field, so it won't be allowed. I opened a GoldMoney account a few years ago now...but decided Turk would get hamstrung by the banksters at every turn here in the US, so I didn't fund it. The whole time since then the dollar has been on a roll. But it can't go forever.

Exactly my outlook Eddie, on both Canada and the Dollar. What a gorgeous resource rich wonderful country with so much future promise.

I wanted to blow the states and move to Vancouver when all the millionaire Chinese decided to move there from Hong Kong, even was negotiating to buy a motel there. The kids and old lady got cold feet as things got closer in time and I realized they were playing along with me because they had to, but thought I had gone soft, so I stayed put.

It worked out OK, things didn't go bad here yet as I feared, like you, I thrive in BAU, so I am glad I was wrong.

You will never go wrong with James Turk,  nice guy and smart as all hell.

You mentioned the same problem with Gold Money that I see with bitgold, people opening accounts and sitting on the gold spending their fiat instead. Greshams Law. Still think it has some potential and watching it like a hawk.

Offline RE

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 02:33:36 PM »

The various BRICS currencies obviously benefit from a dollar collapse. My big question is "could the PRC have a currency collapse of it's own?" One that isn't on anybody's radar? They look to be leveraged enough for it to happen, to me. If it did, I don't see the other BRIC players establishing a new currency hegemony AT ALL.

I certainly think Renminby can crash, and likely before the dollar.

How about the Ruble though?  The Ruskies have the Oil to back it.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 02:52:05 PM »
I want to hear from RE now why Chinada is frozen toast. Housing bubble.. burst already in alberta oil area. BC coast  the only place u wont freeze to death if u cant pay your gas bill. House and condo price in toronto and vancouver average about 900k still affordable to chinese investors. . manufacturing moving to mexico,  something like 90% of exports go to US and that consumer base is suffering. People with way too much personal debt ready to go bk if incomes drop...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 02:56:06 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 02:54:45 PM »
The Russians have oil...and more importantly Russians are tough as nails....and can live on next to nothing, because they've lived through, and continue to live through much more difficult circumstances, generally speaking than we do.

The ruble might crash, but what does it affect? Outside of Russia, not much. Inside of Russia, most people understand how to survive a collapse, having so recently done so...and they don't depend on the system to take care of them.
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 02:59:35 PM »
The Russians have oil...and more importantly Russians are tough as nails....and can live on next to nothing, because they've lived through, and continue to live through much more difficult circumstances, generally speaking than we do.

The ruble might crash, but what does it affect? Outside of Russia, not much. Inside of Russia, most people understand how to survive a collapse, having so recently done so...and they don't depend on the system to take care of them.

I wonder who paid their heating bills in the 90s,  another place where your scrotum could shrivel if u cant pay your gas bill.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 03:08:36 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline RE

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 03:23:29 PM »
I'm not handing out my opinions until after the survey closes next week.  It can skew the results.

One thing I am sorry about is I forgot to add Bitcoin as a choice.  I'll have to make a new survey at a later date with bitcoin in there.

You always forget something when you construct these things.  Very annoying.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2015, 04:21:23 PM »
I'm not handing out my opinions until after the survey closes next week.  It can skew the results.

One thing I am sorry about is I forgot to add Bitcoin as a choice.  I'll have to make a new survey at a later date with bitcoin in there.

You always forget something when you construct these things.  Very annoying.

RE

It wont skew  the results if u tell us if the Vietnamese Dong will stay up or go down
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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 04:32:11 PM »
I'm not handing out my opinions until after the survey closes next week.  It can skew the results.

One thing I am sorry about is I forgot to add Bitcoin as a choice.  I'll have to make a new survey at a later date with bitcoin in there.

You always forget something when you construct these things.  Very annoying.

RE

It wont skew  the results if u tell us if the Vietnamese Dong will stay up or go down

I don't bet on Dongs going up or down.  Sum Dum Dong might do that, but not me.  You could ask My Dong Lik Rok about this though.

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Re: Survey: Which Currency Collapses First? Results: The Refugee Crisis
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2015, 04:58:42 PM »
I dont know whether to short it or go long.

Short dong or long dong.
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