AuthorTopic: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man  (Read 5065 times)

Offline agelbert

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2015, 07:54:24 PM »
Ski lifts from park and ride lots in every suburb takes care of the commute. The ski lifts can be powered EASILY with renewable energy.

Those lifts do not have to be for skiers.  People need to start thinking outside of the "I've GOT TO DRIVE TO WORK" box. But if city managers have their heads firmly up their asses, the lift network from suburbs to work and grocery shopping will not get built. It's fucking STUPID to move 200 lbs. of human with 6000 lbs. of car!

And the lifts can be modified all weather gondolas with room for some hand carry stuff or a portable roll cart for groceries. This is not as hard as people want to make it out to be.

I say, a CARBON TAX for the common man is fine and dandy as long as the rich pigs doing over 50 to 80% of the piggery PAY a PROPORTIONAL carbon tax for their MEGA carbon footprint!

You stay under 1000 square feet in your home and use NO fossil fuel in your car, then you don't pay tax.

But even if you've got a Tesla and a 20,000 sq. ft. house covered with solar panels,  along with your executive jet, you should be required to pay an amount in tax equivalent to the SUM of the tax of the next 100,000 AVERAGE AMERICANS PAY, period.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 08:09:20 PM by agelbert »
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Offline MKing

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2015, 09:15:53 PM »
There have been unbelievable gains made in ICE gas efficiency that are amazing and never discussed here as a current viable solution.

Prior to my recent foray into EV land, my car was a Ford Fiesta. 5 speed stick and about 40 mpg. Cost me about $10.5G lightly used, sold it 50,000 miles later for about $9G's.

ICE efficiency has been getting better, although my 1986 Honda Civic with a 4 speed stick was a solid 45 mpg car, and that was a LONG time ago.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
I bought my wife a beautiful roomy interior compact car a few years ago with a four cylinder engine and the new type transmission called a CVT, a most amazing transmission that never seems to shift and gets remarkable mileage of 48 miles to a gallon highway and that no Bull shit like the stickers on US cars with those MPG ratings.

Yep, CVTs can bring some major increases in efficiency. I like them with bigger engines, say a V6, or at least a decent sized and torquey 4 cylinder.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
RE is correct about everyone moving close to work in my view, it is a ludicrous idea that ignores the reality of the current market prices and affordability issues, as well as the fact that it is not at all feasible from just a simple space available context. All this carbon tax shit it going to do is what  all this forced confiscation of peoples earnings does, make the poor poorer.  :-\

Affordability issues are a concern. But as with all things in a mostly free market based economy, the seeds of the solution have already been sown. Ultimately, unaffordable prices can only generate affordable prices.
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Offline g

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2015, 05:09:49 AM »
Quote
Ultimately, unaffordable prices can only generate affordable prices.

Hi MKing, Used to think that way myself, but it doesn't work in the real world.

Have been waiting for NYC and Boston prices to come down for 50 years now, it just doesn't happen, and are you aware of what's going on in London.

I was laughing my ass off when they were selling parking spots in Boston, a parking spot condo type setup for 10 grand.

The son of a bitches have finally gone stark raving mad I giggled to myself.  They sell for over 100 grand now, that's no bullshit.

I could go on and on about real estate prices around here, but you would think I was joking.

How about a little two bedroom ranch forty miles out of the city that is a modified summer cottage that sold for 6,000 dollars 50 years back. Still has a septic tank, no public sewer, 300 fucking grand and they list them as Starter homes.

That's the affordable stuff I was talking about in the carbon tax thread.

You can with very little imagination realize what prices in Beantown and surrounding communities are.

The wealthy folks in this country NEVER find things unaffordable, believe me.

And if you believe those silly figures the government puts out about incomes your daft, there are large numbers of people in this country with BIG DOUGH, that show up no where in those absurd statistics.

Offline g

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2015, 05:41:16 AM »
Not to mention that you need stable employment before deciding to move. People wondering how long their job or current contract is going to last would be foolish selling their house or breaking their lease, because it will be hard to get another one without a reference of ongoing stable employment.

Instead look for people doing 12 hr shifts and sleeping under their desk, working from home, ridesharing, using scooters,  uber drivers doing loops of industrial parks etc if a mileage tax ever was introduced. Also i see only new roads promised by politicians,  never better public transport.

You got it Unc, Consider this also, The piggie landlords around here demand the first and last months rent around here for a security deposit, which you never get back unless you want to hire a lawyer and get involved with the court system, and you might lose and end up with a legal bill to boot.

Kids today and people in debt and just getting by are really hurting, the thought of moving and having to come up with security deposits again is unthinkable to most, and as you say their jobs are never secure anymore, many are working two part time ones.

Offline MKing

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2015, 07:18:51 AM »
Quote
Ultimately, unaffordable prices can only generate affordable prices.

Hi MKing, Used to think that way myself, but it doesn't work in the real world.

I've been in the real world a long time GO, and specialize in understanding and predicting it. I stand by my original statement, but as with the value of gold, the cycle of my statement to be true might be a bit longer than the perspective of most folks. Supply and demand curves for real estate still work, but perhaps not with the same speed as curves for other things, like say crude oil.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
Have been waiting for NYC and Boston prices to come down for 50 years now, it just doesn't happen, and are you aware of what's going on in London.

Not only does supply and demand still work (i.e. there are more people wanting to live there than can live there) but there is the interference in the basics by the government, allowing folks to borrowing ridiculous amounts, encouraging home ownership over all other forms of consumption, tax breaks and everything else that comes with GovCo trying to dictate changes in behavior.

The solution obviously is to work in an expensive place, collect the salary commiserate with that location, and then live in a cabin out in the woods with internet access and telecommute. The higher salaries in the big cities MUST exist, otherwise they couldn't get anyone there to work. But those salaries only need to be high enough to enslave someone to their real estate ownership, owning real estate being the goal. Sure the cities pay more…and then they take it all away and give you nothing back in terms of quality of life.

I've always been amazed that people fall for it, but what are you going to do, you can't fix stupid.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
I was laughing my ass off when they were selling parking spots in Boston, a parking spot condo type setup for 10 grand.

The son of a bitches have finally gone stark raving mad I giggled to myself.  They sell for over 100 grand now, that's no bullshit.

I could go on and on about real estate prices around here, but you would think I was joking.

I would not, I've seen those prices. But I noticed this going on decades ago, and designed a work around. I refuse to participate in such a rigged system, momma didn't raise no fool.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
How about a little two bedroom ranch forty miles out of the city that is a modified summer cottage that sold for 6,000 dollars 50 years back. Still has a septic tank, no public sewer, 300 fucking grand and they list them as Starter homes.

That's the affordable stuff I was talking about in the carbon tax thread.

I recommend voting with your feet. As I said, it will solve itself, one way or another. Creative folks finding ways to take advantage of the city salaries, while not paying city living expenses, is as creative as it gets.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
You can with very little imagination realize what prices in Beantown and surrounding communities are.

The wealthy folks in this country NEVER find things unaffordable, believe me.

Supply and demand. We just need more supply, unlikely in a big city, and less demand, like fewer folks able to afford it, and things will balance out one way or another.

Quote from: Golden Oxen

And if you believe those silly figures the government puts out about incomes your daft, there are large numbers of people in this country with BIG DOUGH, that show up no where in those absurd statistics.

There has always been BIG DOUGH around GO, otherwise the term "robber baron" would have been invented in this century, rather than 2 back.

I've actually discussed a scenario before, of moving, and I am curious why you are so tied to Beantown? I've been near the place, I tend to avoid it like I do all big cities whenever possible, but I can promise that real estate dollars out in the country go much farther than living near some rats in a trap metropolis.
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline g

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2015, 04:33:12 PM »
Quote
Ultimately, unaffordable prices can only generate affordable prices.

Hi MKing, Used to think that way myself, but it doesn't work in the real world.

I've been in the real world a long time GO, and specialize in understanding and predicting it. I stand by my original statement, but as with the value of gold, the cycle of my statement to be true might be a bit longer than the perspective of most folks. Supply and demand curves for real estate still work, but perhaps not with the same speed as curves for other things, like say crude oil.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
Have been waiting for NYC and Boston prices to come down for 50 years now, it just doesn't happen, and are you aware of what's going on in London.

Not only does supply and demand still work (i.e. there are more people wanting to live there than can live there) but there is the interference in the basics by the government, allowing folks to borrowing ridiculous amounts, encouraging home ownership over all other forms of consumption, tax breaks and everything else that comes with GovCo trying to dictate changes in behavior.

The solution obviously is to work in an expensive place, collect the salary commiserate with that location, and then live in a cabin out in the woods with internet access and telecommute. The higher salaries in the big cities MUST exist, otherwise they couldn't get anyone there to work. But those salaries only need to be high enough to enslave someone to their real estate ownership, owning real estate being the goal. Sure the cities pay more…and then they take it all away and give you nothing back in terms of quality of life.

I've always been amazed that people fall for it, but what are you going to do, you can't fix stupid.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
I was laughing my ass off when they were selling parking spots in Boston, a parking spot condo type setup for 10 grand.

The son of a bitches have finally gone stark raving mad I giggled to myself.  They sell for over 100 grand now, that's no bullshit.

I could go on and on about real estate prices around here, but you would think I was joking.

I would not, I've seen those prices. But I noticed this going on decades ago, and designed a work around. I refuse to participate in such a rigged system, momma didn't raise no fool.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
How about a little two bedroom ranch forty miles out of the city that is a modified summer cottage that sold for 6,000 dollars 50 years back. Still has a septic tank, no public sewer, 300 fucking grand and they list them as Starter homes.

That's the affordable stuff I was talking about in the carbon tax thread.

I recommend voting with your feet. As I said, it will solve itself, one way or another. Creative folks finding ways to take advantage of the city salaries, while not paying city living expenses, is as creative as it gets.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
You can with very little imagination realize what prices in Beantown and surrounding communities are.

The wealthy folks in this country NEVER find things unaffordable, believe me.

Supply and demand. We just need more supply, unlikely in a big city, and less demand, like fewer folks able to afford it, and things will balance out one way or another.

Quote from: Golden Oxen

And if you believe those silly figures the government puts out about incomes your daft, there are large numbers of people in this country with BIG DOUGH, that show up no where in those absurd statistics.

There has always been BIG DOUGH around GO, otherwise the term "robber baron" would have been invented in this century, rather than 2 back.

I've actually discussed a scenario before, of moving, and I am curious why you are so tied to Beantown? I've been near the place, I tend to avoid it like I do all big cities whenever possible, but I can promise that real estate dollars out in the country go much farther than living near some rats in a trap metropolis.

You are agreeing with me and pretending to be correcting me. Read for comprehension please. Your being silly.

The point of the discussion was that people cannot just move into the expensive areas where they work.

You the, claim the government interferes with the free market in real estate. No shit, that's the point.

In the real world your move to Boston if you work there idea just doesn't work for most folks.

You have twisted it around now with your obfuscation bull shit, to say people should work in the City and move elsewhere when the prices are reasonable. Exactly what I said they are doing out of necessity.




« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 04:38:10 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2015, 05:17:45 PM »
A carbon tax sounds like a decent idea especially if the revenues raised through this tax went into public transportation or the construction of more sustainable communities. What I would suggest is that rather than a flat tax rate per mile you have varying rates depending on your total mileage that tax year. For example the carbon tax is say 5% for the first 1000 miles but rises to 10% between 1001-5000 miles and rises still further if you travel greater distances. By doing it this way you tax people who travel excessively with their car and encourage people to take shorter commutes. A nice twist would if carbon tax miles can be claimed back if you use any recognised form of public transport.
What you are describing is NOT a carbon tax, it is a jobs program for bureaucrats.

If you want a REAL carbon tax, you figure, okay, this barrel of oil you just pumped out of the ground/ton of coal you dug up/tree you cut down/etc. will produce X amount of carbon dioxide when burned, so you need to pay a tax of $c times X.  Then the producer can pass the cost on to the consumer, and the consumer can figure out how best to avoid paying the tax by reducing the amount of carbon dioxide he puts in the atmosphere.

And we can make it both draconian AND revenue-neutral by rebating it on a per-capita basis.  Then people who use much less than their share get rewarded and much more, punished.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline MKing

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2015, 05:41:17 PM »
You are agreeing with me and pretending to be correcting me. Read for comprehension please. Your being silly.

You mean you mentioned the telecommuting rigging in there somewhere? I didn't see it.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
The point of the discussion was that people cannot just move into the expensive areas where they work.

You are too far down the road. You don't TAKE a job in the first place if you can't handle getting close work. Few people accurately value their own time when making these kinds of calculations, they see $1/hr more, and don't even consider the 10% of their life they gave up in exchange for it, to commute in from elsewhere.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
You the, claim the government interferes with the free market in real estate. No shit, that's the point.

Of course. GovCo interferes with everything, leaving us the basics of a free market, but once you understand what it is they want, you can take advantage of that knowledge like you can any system, be it Vegas, or government attempting to influence human behavior.

Quote from: Golden Oxen

In the real world your move to Boston if you work there idea just doesn't work for most folks.

I wouldn't move to Boston, if only because the states attitudes on defenseless citizens is disagreeable to me. But if you can't afford to live near where the work is, well, then you get to make a choice. My choice is already clear.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
You have twisted it around now with your obfuscation bull shit, to say people should work in the City and move elsewhere when the prices are reasonable. Exactly what I said they are doing out of necessity.

I disagree it is through "necessity", but more because they don't, can't or won't honestly evaluate that asset that we all only have a limited amount of, and can never get back what we waste. Time.
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline RE

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2015, 05:49:21 PM »
A carbon tax sounds like a decent idea especially if the revenues raised through this tax went into public transportation or the construction of more sustainable communities. What I would suggest is that rather than a flat tax rate per mile you have varying rates depending on your total mileage that tax year. For example the carbon tax is say 5% for the first 1000 miles but rises to 10% between 1001-5000 miles and rises still further if you travel greater distances. By doing it this way you tax people who travel excessively with their car and encourage people to take shorter commutes. A nice twist would if carbon tax miles can be claimed back if you use any recognised form of public transport.
What you are describing is NOT a carbon tax, it is a jobs program for bureaucrats.

If you want a REAL carbon tax, you figure, okay, this barrel of oil you just pumped out of the ground/ton of coal you dug up/tree you cut down/etc. will produce X amount of carbon dioxide when burned, so you need to pay a tax of $c times X.  Then the producer can pass the cost on to the consumer, and the consumer can figure out how best to avoid paying the tax by reducing the amount of carbon dioxide he puts in the atmosphere.

And we can make it both draconian AND revenue-neutral by rebating it on a per-capita basis.  Then people who use much less than their share get rewarded and much more, punished.

That's the best suggestion so far, but it still has the same economic problem that unless the consumers of the energy have sufficient credit to buy it at the higher prices, you'll simply get more demand destruction.  The extractors and refiners will have fewer customers and sell less and less product all the time, and there is no profit in it.  So they go out of biz even faster this way.

Now, this is a good thing for the environment but the economy collapses.  You cut off your nose to spite your face here.

RE
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2015, 07:15:42 PM »
The extractors and refiners will have fewer customers and sell less and less product all the time, and there is no profit in it.  So they go out of biz even faster this way. Now, this is a good thing for the environment but the economy collapses.
And the downside would be?  :icon_scratch:  ::) ;)
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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Re: A Carbon Tax For the Common Man
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2015, 07:25:05 PM »
The extractors and refiners will have fewer customers and sell less and less product all the time, and there is no profit in it.  So they go out of biz even faster this way. Now, this is a good thing for the environment but the economy collapses.
And the downside would be?  :icon_scratch:  ::) ;)

More folks Unemployed, more Biznesses Outta Biz, more rapid failure of JIT shipping, less time to Prep Up.

RE
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