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Offline RE

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Large Public Works Projects
« on: March 03, 2012, 07:52:20 PM »


When you look back at the Successful Periods of Civilizations Past, what they all seem to have in common are very Large Public Works Projects (LPWP) which kept many people in the Civilization Busy and served to keep an Economy moving along.  Whether it was the Tower of Babel; the Pyramids of Egypt; the Roman Aqueducts; the Great Wall(s) of China; or the Railroads and then the Interstate Highway system of the FSofA, during their Heyday all these civilizatin produced some large Public works project which had some form of Utility associated with it.  Even the Pyramids weren't strictly just big Burial Tombs for the Pharoahs, they were used as reference points for astronomical observation, which helped in the development of Mathematics, which in turn helped Agriculture and Commerce to develop.

The Last Big Public Works project of this sort was the Space Race, engaged in by the two major Power Centers of the USSR and the FSofA until the two of them simply became too overburdened with the costs to continue on with them in any great degree.  Arguably however, the Space Race led to many Innovations in communications and computing which held benefits for the population for a period of time.



In order to take on these huge Public Works projects, the society has to be in tremedous Surplus, they are very costly on all levels to build.  For the ancient ones, the cost came in the form of the vast amount of slave labor necessary and the food to keep all those Slaves fed while not themselves directly engaged inthe production of food.  In the recent incarnations, the cost came in the form of huge fossil fuel energy consumption to build these projects, and then to pay the Wage Slaves engaged in the task of building said project.

What does a Huge Public works Project do for an Economy?  Basically, it takes all the surplus you have and then provides Work for individual Laborers of the society, giving people a "purpose" for living and a means to distribute out the surplus to them, at least enough so they can survive.  Of course, during the period such Public Works projects are undertaken, the surplus is Soooo great that the folks running the show are living very high on the hog, whether it was Pharoahs in Egypt or the Robber Barons of the Railroad Era.



The lack of or disappearance of a LPWP seems to me to be a good leading indicator that a civilization is going into a collapse phase.  In the absence of a good LPWP, the society runs out of enough Work to keep the people Busy, and without Work to do there never has been found yet a good way to fairly distribute the production of a society.  These last few years of development of the Social Welfare state demonstrate all the problems you get when you simply Dole Out emough money for people to survive without Working.  It takes away the incentive to work, and the number of people not working grows faster than the number working.  The people working become resentful of the people not working.  Thus you get the Knee Jerk comments made by Pols like Lizard Gingrich about OWSers "Go get a Job, right after you get a Shower".

Once the ability to fund an LPWP diminshes sufficiently, the society devolves to the next means of Job Creation for the Masses, which is to go to War and employ the Poor in the Bizness of killing each other off and sufficiently destroying the infrastructure that upon the conclusion of the war there are few enough people left and now you once again have a Big Public Works Project to keep them busy, which is Rebuilding all they just finished destroying.

The last 2 World Wars, WWI and WWII were undertaken after the first major LPWP of Railroad Construction was more or less completed, and really WWII was just an extension of WWI, a brief hiatus during which the transition was made from mostly Coal Power to Oil Power.  The denoument of WWII provided 2 LPWPs one for Europe and another for the FSoA.  In Europe, it was the Marshall Plan to Rebuild the infrastructure of Eurotrashland.  Here in the FSofA it was the building of the Interstate Highway system and the development of the Carz Economy of Ring Roads, Suburbs, Fast Food and Malls.  This was a MASSIVE LPWP which totally transformed the landscape of the FSofA.  "Pave Paradise, put up a Parking Lot", as Joni Mitchell wrote & sang in "Big Yellow Taxi".



Thing is of course, at the conclusion of WWII, globally we were still a world AWASH in vast surplus of Oil.  It didn't really demand that big a Die Off before a new LPWP could be created leveraging up the thermodynamic energy of all the Cheap Energy still in the ground at that time.  As the last of our LPWPs, the Space Race now comes to a close here and WWIII is on the Horizon, how and when do we exit from THAT with sufficient surplus to once again create a new LPWP to give "productive" work to J6P?

Without the presence of a large quantity of cheap energy, the die Off from WWII will have to be ona much greater scale than from WWII.  Without the cheap energy, we won't be in surplus again until the population is much smaller than it is now, and with no surplus, you get no LPWP.  Population drops low enough, you can't do LPWP because it takes a decent size population to organize up such things, especially in the absence of Oil Energy.  A project like the Interstate which used the force multiplier of Oil to get it built would take Centuries of Slave Labor to complete, just as it took centuries to build the Great Wall of China.  In reality you could not even do it with Slave Labor, since just to produce the Steel necessary takes vast amounts of heat energy that Human labor cannot replace.

The world ahead of us is one without LPWPs, at least for a while to come anyhow.  What will be necessary for a reinvention of Homo Sapiens are small community size Public Works projects.  Once the population dips low enough, such a New Begining might begin to take shape.

There is of course the slim and unlikely chance for perhaps one more LPWP that could be leveraged up here after just a moderate die off in WWIII, if it is accomplished without thoroughly destroying the current infrastructure and sucking up too much of the remaining positive EROEI Oil, which would be to take the remaining Population and remaining Oil and use it all to create as many Renewable Energy systems as possible to leverage up from that remaining wealth.  If we had set about such a task in 1950 instead of building the Interstate, one can only imagine how different the world might have turned out, but alas that did not happen.

Even if we DO manage at some point here to Arrest the Die Off and successfully build such an LPWP,atthat time we will still need ANOTHER LPWP to keep the population Busy as Beavers.  More than anything, it is the lack of a PURPOSE in life that weighs so heavily on our society, and is the cause of its social problems.  Even most of the people who HAVE jobs now only do them because its the only real means for them to survive in this society.  Relatively few people "love" their jobs.  Even people who make gobs of money often do not like their jobs.  This is not to say Slaves employed moving around big rocks to build the Pyramids enjoyed their jobs, but there was a definitive purpose to it, and I suspect during the Period that Egypt was in enough Surplus to keep such an LPWP running, the Slaves did not Revolt.  Only once the Pharoahs ran outta Money to keep building those Pyramids and they weren't being Fed enough by the Pharoah did Moses DEMAND, "Let My People GO!"  And the Pharoah COMPLIED, because why keep the Slaves if you cannot feed them and you cannot afford to use them to build a Pyramid?

So too will our Slavery to the Illuminati end here in this iteration, and like the followers of Moses, all us former Slaves will be forced to walk the tough road to True Freedom out in the Desert.  You will only FIND true freedom if you can MAKE IT out there in the Desert also, you will NEVER find it in the Belly of the Beast.

Long as you have a choice of Destinations to head for though, I would suggest not heading for the Desert, but rather head for the Mountains.  Head for a place with really BIG Mountains.  The Great Wall that GOD Built to protect the Independent Souls of the World.



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Jal

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 02:58:20 PM »
I think you got it ...
"What does a Huge Public works Project do for an Economy?  Basically, it takes all the surplus you have and then provides Work for individual Laborers of the society, giving people a “purpose” for living and a means to distribute out the surplus to them, at least enough so they can survive. 
...to keep the population Busy as Beavers.  More than anything, it is the lack of a PURPOSE in life that weighs so heavily on our society, and is the cause of its social problems...."

Using surplus ... without surplus you cannot have LPWP.
jal

Offline RE

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 10:03:47 PM »
Yup, the Lack of Surplus makes LPWP impossible to undertake.

Thing is, there still is SOME surplus around, right now though most of that Surplus is being Wasted on a lot of Malinvestment in unsustainable infrastructure (read that the Carz and Highways and IPhone Factories).

Its probably too late to redirect and use what surplus remains for better LPWPs.  Even if it is not too late, the Political Will is not there to do it, and once you get large scale social breakdown, organizing up LPWPs becomes impossible.

Without an LPWP, all economies are destined here to crumble.  They essentially provide a means to employ people and provide an engine to keep commerce moving.  The lack of any LPWP going on right now virtually anywhere in the world is a sign that globally the surplus is too thin to support such a thing under the current situation of resource depletion and population overshoot.  Since the resources won't return in anything under geological timespans, in order to retrun to surplus the population will have to decrease.  A 50% Die off would be sufficient to bring back surplus for a while.  This may be what the Illuminati are shooting for in the near term.  However, the Georgia Guidestones indicate a larger Die Off Plan of around 90%.

90% or 50% though, its a LOT of Dead People. I See Dead People.



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Offline RE

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Large Public Works Projects Part II
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 12:26:26 AM »


One common theme you find these days amongst OWSers and Libertarians alike is the despair over Big Bizness taking over, with all the TBTF Corporations being supported, while Small Biz Mom & Pop shops go Belly Up.  The Great Myth here in the FSofA has been that "Small Biz is the Backbone of Amerika", particularly with respect to the archetypal hero of such a paradigm, the Entrepreneur who starts a biz in his Garage and goes on to grow it into a Big Biz down the line.

Even before I came up with the idea that LPWPs were the driver for economics in a large society, I held the opinion not that Small Biz was the foundation of Capitalism, but rather that Small Biz has always functioned as a parasite, or at best in symbiosis with Big Biz, which comes first.

If you take any town, it doesn't start developing lots of Restaraunts and Hardware Stores and Starbucks until there is some Big Biz in town employing people who then in turn use their disposable income to begin a secondary economy going in all those retail biznesses.  On the occassions the Big Biz in town shuts its doors, the whole town goes into a tailspin of closed up smaller biznesses.  Thus you have all those depressing Rust Belt towns in the Midwest, which died economically when Manufacturing was moved over to the cheaper labor markets of the 3rd World.



Both the Railroad Era and the Interstate Era provide prime examples of how Big Biz begins building an LPWP which gets lots of Money flowing through the economy, which then can support ancillary Small Biz off that.  In the case of Railroads, now smaller Prospectors can go out in an area, locate something worth mining up and then have a means to transport it back to a manufacturing center.  The prospectors need tools, which come to the local hardware store via the railroad.  A local Blacksmith is necessary to fix broken tools, and Saloons open up in town for the local miners to frequent each night after backbreaking work digging rocks up out of the ground.  Dentists are necessary to fix the teeth they break, doctors to set their broken bones, POOF you have a thriving economy!

No Railroad comes to your Town, you get none of that, thus of course every small town across Amerika wanted to be Chosen as a Station on the Railroad.  Having your town Bypassed by the Railroad meant being Left Behind by that period of Economic Development of the Age of Coal.  So Railroads were given Rights of Way, Tax Breaks and all the rest to entice them into passing through your territory and then stopping at the town in that Ag Community, which turns it from a Subsistence Level Town into a Food Supplier of the Big Shities.  A good thing for the Large Land Holders in such an area; not necessarily so good for the smaller land holders of course.

The building of the Interstate has even more examples of how this works.  The highways were built not because large numbers of people had cars they wanted to move around in, but rather large numebrs of cars were built because the Interstate was built.  The Interstate was built because the Young Lieutenenant Dwight D. Eisenhower had to move a Mechanized Military Convoy across the FSofA inthe 1920s along the old Lincoln Highway, which really was just a hodgepodge of Dirt Roads quite sufficient for Horse and Buggy, but not all that amenable to Gas Powered Trucks and Personnel Carriers which were much bigger and got bogged down in the mud.  It became rapidly apparent to the Military that they could not control a large area as vast as the FSofA with a Mechanized Army without good Roads upon which to move that Army.



The Consumer level Automotive Biz arose from the need to find some way to gain utility out of the LPWP of the Interstate and so help to pay for it.  This vastly expanded the size of the Automotive construction biz, which in addition to the laboring jobs building the roads provided a generation of Union Workers a good living.  The Taxes they then paid on the gas they used to drive around on the Interstate is what paid for its construction.  Long as the Oil came up virtually free from the ground, the more people you got burning the stuff and running around willy nilly doing commerce, the more money you could push through the system.  Not only the Quantity of Money increased through this period, but its Velocity increased greatly as well.  Whereas in the agrarian economy of the Old West a person might have got by with just a few Silver Coins to spend each year and most of his needs covered by subsistence farming and barter, once the Automotive economy got rolling (sic), money became absolutely essential for all living.  Primary here: The Money is necessary to buy the Fuel.  There is no Coinkidink here that the very same person, John D. Rockefeller who was intrumental inthe rise of Standard Oil ALSO became such a large scale Bankster, or that Railroad Tycoons like JP Morgan also were in the Banking Biz.  The connection between Money and Energy has been well known by the Illuminati at least since the time of the Enlightenment when the ability to do Work with Heat was developed through the Steam Engine.

The Big Money piles of the Illuminati sifted out through the ages was put to Work by building the LPWPs of the Railroads and the Interstate and the Automotive Biz.  These LPWPs enabled them to Create out of Thin air much MORE money, which first gets distributed out the Big Biznesses and well connected next tier down the line of folks like Morgan and Rockefeller, although who knows there might be another layer between them and true Illuminati.

The Nation State and the Taxation System provides the means to Lever Up through Bond Issues to build these LPWPs.  As long as you are insinuated into the system CREATING the money used to fund all these projects, each time one is undertaken you get ever richer.  Of course, necessary here is that there is enough SURPLUS that as a whole the society can afford to undertake such an LPWP.

The reason there was likely such a long period during the Dark Ages of so little money flowing around was the lack of any great LPWP to be undertaken.  Note that from the period of around 500AD until pretty much the 1800s when the Railroads were built there were no LPWPs going on in the Western World, at this time they were occurring over in Asia when the Great Wall of China was built.  This could make a good case for the idea that the Illuminati were at the time holed up in the Himalayas and were levering up their wealth on the backs of the Chinese.

The levering up of Wealth takes either a large population or a large source of Energy, or preferably both to really work.  In both cases, in order to accomplish this task, during the time of Surplus you vastly increase the money supply and the velocity of money increases as well.  Building goes into "overdrive".  Work is created at the most basic level of Physical Labor for a large number of people, either directly int he building of the LPWP itself, or in the Small Biz Ancillary economy that grows around the LPWP.  During the Post WWII era, this was the period where wealth distribution, at least on the "obvious" level seemed most Equitable, with Biz Managers paid only perhaps 40X what the average laborer made, as opposed to today where the managers make 400X what J6P makes.  This would be the late stage of an Expansion period, where as it decays the wealth gets consolidated down in layers, with in the end all being impoverished except of course our old friends the Illuminati, historically speaking of course.

Its this last layer of course that we often run into conflict over here, insofar as their ability goes to maintain the wealth and control after THIS collapse, which really is the first truly GLOBAL one since the whole bizness began with the Dawn of Agriculture some 6 Millenia ago or so.  In all prior collapses, it was always possible for "Capital" to run somewhere else and hide, or even not necessarily hide but lever itself up on new territory and new populations.  Particularly Efficient in this process was the general acceptance of Gold as THE Indestructible source of Capital.  If you could run away with all the gold in the Bank and leave J6P all just holding the bag on a bumch of Irredeemable Debt, after they finish fighting over this, you just drop back in with your Pile of Gold to begin the process all over again.



The problems with repeating this process in the case of a Global Collapse are many.  First off, there is no real "Safe Haven" for wealth anywhere in the world anymore.  You certainly cannot go over to China and hole up in the Himalayas now to preserve Wealth, and I would say South America is pretty dicey also, though better than China is.  SA has many reasons why it did not become the Powerhouse NA did through the Age of Oil.  climate and Topography work against it.  Mowing down the Rainforest is overall counterproductive, but unless you do mow it down you cannot support the building of an LPWP.  Much of what is not Rainforest is Mountainous in the Andes.  Again, Mountainous areas prevent much Commerce from developing in them and Armies of any era have an almost impossible task in trying to control the people who live in the Mountains.  Be it the Pashtuns of Afghanistans or the Swiss in the Alps, Mountain peoples always have a decent amount of independence compared to the flatlanders, though of course with the exception of the Swiss they generally lead a relatively deprived existence.  There are some signs that perhaps Cheeelay, home of Speedy Gonzalo Lira is becoming the New Switzerland for the Illuminati.  However, I just do not see that overall SA has enough good flatland that is not Rainforest upon which to do another LPWP like the Mayans worked up back in the day.

The second problem is it remains unclear to me that PMs will maintain the status of being Cross Border Money that can be used to transfer Wealth from one place to another.  I am of the opinion that until a large scale Die Off is completed AND the Earth has had decent time on a Geological Scale to recover from 6000 years of Agricultural Rape and 300 years of Thermodynamic Rape of fossil fuels that even if you Possess Gold, there just isn't enough Resource Wealth left to lever up using the Gold.



Third issue is maintaing Ownership rights over vast areas of the Global Surface once you do not have sufficient energy to maintain Mechanized Armies.  You may still be able to maintain hegemony over smaller portions of the earth surface with armies of Troops armed with Atlatls, but again you would need sufficient Ag production to feed said armies, and the logistics of moving them around are much more difficult without the mechanization.  At the very least, it will take a generation or two to breed up enough Horses to run a decent size Cavalry again.

So essentially, the Great Pyramid that is Wealth Extraction from Labor and from the Resources of the Earth was pretty much completed through the process of developing LPWPs that provided the basis for a Surplus Economy to build its Population and distribute Resources to that population, if not fairly and equitably at least in such amounts that during the period of Expansion the Slaves of the society were kept complacent enough to keep on a-building.

The Last of these was the attempt to Lever Up off the Surface of the Earth and into the Final Frontier of Space, and it is this attempt that upon failing left nowhere really left to GO anymore.  It also why we likely are getting so many Science Propaganda Newz Stories now of new "exoplanets" and "Earth twins" being "discovered by the Kepler Telescope in far away Star Systems.  Even if true, all these discoveries tell us is that there is a hunk of rock circling around a star many light years away which is in the "Sweet Spot" where the Temps would be in theory correct for the presence of Liquid Water.  They may in fact even HAVE Liquid Water on them, they may in fact even have just the right amount of Mass so the Gravity is not too great or small for Homo Sapiens to wander about the surface.  IF Homo Sapiens could GET there, but crap man, we can hardly get to MARS after 40 years here of throwing big ass Rockets up into Space.  We are going to traverse LIGHT YEARS of Interstellar Travel with as yet undeveloped Matter-Anti Matter Engines that will propel us even at Sub-Light speeds to these Planets?  EVER?  Gimmee a break here.  Even IF such travel is in theory possible, it would take Centuries if not Millenia before we could manage such a thing, and long before that comes to pass we have to deal with the depleting resources of THIS planet.   We are not going to escape into the Final Frontier here IN TIME, so there just is not that much left now for the Illuminati to lever up anymore.  All the Gold in the WORLD will not get you to Betelgeuse, though Lord Only Knows, plenty was spent on super Conducting Super Colliders and all the rest to TRY to resolve the problem of living on one small Rock circling the Sun in one small corner of the Milky Way Galaxy.



All that is left now is for Homo Sapiens to REVERSE ENGINEER our way back to a simpler way of living and to invest the great GIFT that is Sentience in trying to figure out how to go BEYOND the Physical Limitations of Energy, Matter and Gravity.  That process does not take Super Conducting Super Colliders Or Oil OR Gold.  What it takes is applying the Human Mind to thinking outside the BOX of all these things.  They are a TRAP, which we have been caught in for 6000 years hear now at least.

The time has come now to leave this Box, and find our future elsewhere, not in the world of the Physical, but in the world of the Spirit.  This time will come, as Energy drops to Zero, the Spirit will RISE TO INFINITY.

The tough part of course is making it through the Zero Point.



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Offline RE

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 01:15:18 AM »
Just a few more thoughts on LPWPs I didn't cover in the first two parts of this series which have come to me since.

We are all familiar with the really BIG LPWPs of Civilizations Past, not only the Pyramids but the Great Wall of China also.



The more I thought about this though, the more I came to realize that NO successful Civilization or Culture we know about today did not build LPWPs of some sort.

When I was in HS learning about History and read about Pyramid building and so forth, my reaction was "WHY did these folks spend so much time and energy and in fact SLAVE labor on building these things?"  Just Hubris of Pharoahs?

Well, eventually I learned that Pyramids were not just Tombs for Pharoahs, but Astronomical Instruments also.  So they had some Utility.  The Great Wall had obvious Utility as well.

What about Europe through the Dark Ages?  They had their LPWPs also, the Castles and the Cathedrals.





Again with the Castles, you can see the obvious Utility, but Cathedrals?  Is it just Religious Hubris that led these folks to build these Monuments to their Belief Systems?  HELL NO!  It's ECONOMICS!

The Romans did it also with their Aqueducts and Roads, the Babylonians put up the Tower of Babel and then there were the rest of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World as well.  Colossus of Rhodes,  Hanging Gardens of Babylon et al.

In all cases, these Civilizations had to find a Means to economically distribute out some form of Work to a society which was in Surplus of Food from the Ag system and needed to keep the expanding populations Busy with something.  How many YEARS of labor did it take to build one of those Medieval Castles or Cathedrals without Caterpillar Back Hoes, Daiwoo Front End Loaders and Hitachi Cranes?  Lots, entire generations of Stone Masons in fact were engaged in this process.

Come to the expanding FSofA in the Age of Coal, the LPWP was the Railroads.  Progressing into the Age of Oil, it was the Interstate.  In the Information Age, its been the construction of the Internet.  Ever Bigger, ever more impressive feats of Engineering of one sort or another, although the Internet is not likely to have the Durability of the Pyramids OR the Cathedrals here.

These major LPWPs are the ENGINE of a Civilization on an Economic level.  Without this constant building and expansion, there isn't a way that has been found to otherwise provide "work" for people  so they can "earn" the credits necessary to buy the Ag surplus of the society.

We stil do HAVE some surplus here, particularly on the Ag level if the remaining fossil fuels are directed toward keeping that system operational a while longer and not wasting so much on willy nilly driving about.  In theory I think, it is POSSIBLE for one more Great LPWP, the building of sustainable energy systems.  This won't be enough to replace the wasted fossil fuel energy, but if built such an LPWP might keep a smaller population from faling into the Olduvai Gorge with the Stone Knives and Bearskins.

Not gonna happen of course, but it is the Last and Only Chance we have here.  One more time, we have to organize up a major LPWP to build a sustainable energy infrastructure.  We need it not only for the Energy it will provide in the future once built, but Economically RIGHT now to provide work for millions of people who now exist only on the dole with no real purpose in life.

An LPWP built around sustainable Energy systems is the LAST CHANCE.  Its the only thing that can keep humanity from sliding back into the Olduvai Gorge at BEST, and quite possibly going the way of the dinosaur here also.  It can be financed thorugh Credit Money creation, repudiation of Odious Debt and massive amounts of physical Human Labor instead of using Machines to do it.

Not gonna happen of course, but it is still a slim possibility here.  Elsewise, bone up on your Flint Knapping skills here, because we will be back with the Flinstones soon enough.

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Offline reanteben

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 02:03:07 PM »
part 1 was great

part 2 was the bomb

part 3 is a ROADMAP to hell. getting back on the horse.

saw mills don't encourage permaculture they encourage maximization.






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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 11:06:44 PM »
RE

Agreed with most of your historical analysis on this topic and thought it quite clever.  I was shocked, shocked to read your take on small business as a leech upon the body politic.  Small business is as American as apple pie and porn, and the nitro fed employment engine which will save us all - Amen Jesus.  We can build a vibrant economy taking in each others' laundry and passing back and forth little credit notes.

The space race was not the whole LPWP of the FSOA in the post Eisenhower era.  It was just the poster boy for the huge military build-up which also included hollowing out mountains and then installing AC and wall-to-wall carpeting, to house our most deserving when things got rough.  Some of these projects would even have impressed the ancient Chinese.

It's quite a shame that we can no longer flee to the desert after the collapse and then beat some Palestines into submission or extinction by clubbing  them over the heads and knocking down their walls with our trumpets.  I love mountains and have spent time in the Himalayas and Andes, but they are freaking cold.  Actually, I almost moved to a little city up in the Peruvian Andes at 3300 meters  where the temperature rarely goes below 15C.

But I have a nagging suspicion that this time it just might be different.  The thesis of your predictions (as Yogi would say, about the future) is based upon fossil fuel depletion.  I have been studying the UFO situation for over 50 years which has in the last decade merged with the Zero Point Energy extraction field.  This is the wrong part of the Diner to try to build a case for its reality, but I have come to the conclusion well beyond 50/50 that it is real and that the Illuminati have had it under their belts for the last 30 or 40 years, and are doing all within their considerable power to suppress it from getting out to the teaming hordes.  Ironically, the first thing I think of when I see your handle, Reverse Engineer, is Area 51.  Many current UFO sightings are not alien craft anymore but corporate black ops development from crashed alien craft.

Our elite friends are under increasing stress in this area as well as other current events, and my heart goes out to them.  Most inventors have gone open source since the criminals are seizing all the patents under the guise of national security, and the thugs are now playing whack a mole.  When an inventor announces to his brethren over their over unity blogs the details of a working over unity device, then the men in black show up with an offer they can't refuse.  Steven Jones talks about this in the last 20 minutes of a Guns & Butter interview, but I recommend you listen to the whole things as it is interesting and even entertaining.  This has been going on since Tesla died in 1943 and the FBI vacuumed up his hotel room with all his papers minutes afterwards.  So our Masters have been on to it for a while now, even before the great post war Flying Saucer invasions.

http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/70471

Another area I am watching with great interest is the Iranian born inventor and nuclear engineer, Mr. Keshe, now working in Belgium.  He is taking deposits for 5 kW units for delivery within the next twelve months.  He also claims that he had turned over his findings years ago to Iranian scientist, and it was the application of this technology which allowed the Iran military to recently capture the US drone.  OK, I'll believe all this when the units start arriving by truck to a town near me, and my neighbors cut their wires to the grid.  but it is certainly worth watching.  As 99% of respectable and tenured physicists claim that ZPE while real, is impossible to extract and harness for work, I would watch with pleasure if an inventor came with a device on a leash down Main Street.  And they all raced to revamp their theories, rewriting scientific history,  in hope of a Nobel prize.  It also might explain why Israel is so eager to go to war.  This could be a lot more threatening to the heart of the Illuminati than an Iran with nukes.  For me the biggest question is why this Mr. Keshe is still breathing if he is on the level.

http://www.keshefoundation.com/en/

But why do I bring all this up in this part of the Diner's menu?  Obviously, the foundation of your entire future analysis is based on scarce energy.  And up until 4 centuries ago most human energy was food, with a little water and air power (mills) and wood and peat to heat an cook stuff.  This would be a total game changer.  So, I would be really interested to see you copy your virtual spread sheet, wipe out the fossil fuel depletion cells, plug in the ZPE cells, and see what pops out for our future.  Also, unfortunately, it appears that our Masters have already developed amazing horror weapons with the technology as well.  What a surprise!

Offline RE

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 01:27:02 AM »
Indeed, about all my prognostications of the future are based on my conviction that in fact no "game changing" form of massive Energy source accessible to Homo Sapiens is coming down the pipe. Really MASSIVE energy source makes almost anything possible.  You could lever up as much as you wanted into low earth orbit, build Space Stations/Interstellar craft that even at sublight speeds could go check out Exoplanets in the Sweet Spot for the corporeal existence of Carbon Based Life Forms about our size.

I read periodically about various forms of energy collection/extraction that might be possible, be it Tesla's contention he could generate infinite Eletricity from the magnetci field of the earth to various Italians who claim to be able to fuse Nuclei in your average Test Tube.  Perhaps it is true these systems are being surpressed, perhaps not, but until something like this actualy comes onlne, the game wil not change.

Far as my deconstruction of the incredibly stupid idea that Small Biz drives any Large Nation State style economy goes, all I can really say is that anyone who believes in this idea is MORE than a few cans short of a Six Pack. Large Economies require VAST amount of money flowing through them and Samll Biz does not create vsst amounts of money.  Nobody can save enough money to build a Railroad, you have to acfcess Capital Markets to do that.  Steve on EU covers this shit much better than I can do.  Its pure myth that Small Entrepreneurs can drive an economy without the support of the Money Masters.  Whether it was Edison and the Astors and Vanderbuilts investing or Facebook with Goldman Underwirting the IPO, to get anything like this really of the ground it takes the Capital Markets, not savings. The Capital Markets are Debt Markets, but unless you actually prduce more than you waste, your debt will eventually catch up with you.  NO Industrial system has EVER paid for itself, EVER.  In the absence of infinite and cheap energy, it never will either.  Mathematical IMPOSSIBILITY.

I speculate some on Area 51 and the possibility that there is more here than meets the eye, I am not opposeda priori to any such idea.  Just liek I am not opposed to the possibility that the monetary system is continuous and has been manipulated by the same people since the dawn of Money.  It is possible.  In both cases however, I do not see in evidence that energy will be brought to bear here that can arrest a Reverse Engineering paradigm.  I don't think it is POSSIBLE to do. JMHO.

Peter thinks otherwise though, and hopefully he will soon drop back in.  He has been taking a bit of a Vacation after working long hours getting the DD Platform up and running.  When he does drop back in here, between the two of you, and a few others here I wll have a damn hard time knocking down the arguments of energy suppression by TPTB and extraterrestial influences.  I'll wait to see what is presented, and then counter best I can.

And yea, if this continues along these lines, I will split the thread and put this part over into Conspiracy Theories :-)

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How your Opinions Change over time
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 09:30:38 PM »
I was going through some old posts back in 2009, and came up with this gem which shows back then I held almost a completely opposite opinion rearding the Flintstones Outcome of and end game of Stone Age Technology.  Nowadays I tend to think this is inevitable, back then I thought it unlikely.

RE


May 4th, 2009

One of the recurring themes in the powerdown scenario is just how far down the
technological ladder we will fall in the PPO world, or if we will fall at all.
Maybe we will develop Matter-Antimatter Engines and rocket our way to the Stars?
LOL.

The whole fantasy of Space Exploration as depicted in Star Trek fascinated me
through my youth, and I watched every Moon Mission reported by Walter Cronkite.
However, I really don't believe we will ever get off this planet, not even to
Mars. The energy problems of lifting up all the stuff you would need to take
with you to theoretically build something on Mars is horrendous. Even if you
got the stuff there, ICE wouldn't work in the Martian atmosphere, so all your
back hoes and so forth would have to be Nuclear Powered. Anyhow, the
practicality of even using Nukes on Earth is not real good, and I really have
trouble imagining how a Nuke Plant could be built on Mars.

So, forget about getting off the Planet, what are the likelihoods here of our
technological future? What I see as most likely is some kind of hybrid of some
modern technologies with the general level of technology around 1750, prior to
the development of the Steam Engine. I don't think any kind of combustion
engine technology is really sustainable once the Coal reserves have been bled
dry, if you tried to run it all on Wood you would burn down the forests too
quickly.

The one kind of Engine I do see as possible is the Stirling Engine, with huge
solar reflectors heating up cisterns of water and producing steam to run
turbines, producing some electricity. I think this should be enough to run
communications, lighting and refrigeration technologies. On the transportation
end, I think we will return to Sail Power for water transport, and on land
mostly utilize animal power again, horses and oxen. Bicycles also will be
utilized for personal transportation.

The biggest technological challenge is in the area of Food Production. Clearly
without the fertilizers and without the Tractors, there is no way we can sustain
the level of food production we have now. Also, with only Wind driven pumps to
pump up water from diminished aquifers, the amount of irrigation possible will
be minimal. With the degraded environment we have left here at the end of the
Oil Era, the amount of food we can produce will be only a fraction of what it is
now. So you definitely see a massive reduction in population. One can only
hope this occurs sort of naturally over a timespan of 50-100 years, which itself
would be very fast, but if it happens faster than that its hard to say what
comes out the other side, if anything. You can only imagine Mad Max in those
scenarios.

The return over eons to the Stone Age doesn't seem likely to me, I think we
would go extinct as a species if it degenerates that much. No real reason for
it either, since with a diminished population, all the materials we mined out of
the ground are reusable virtually in perpetuity.

In the end, its all about Population control really, and that is what we haven't
been able to control through the age of Agriculture and then the age of Oil.
Mother Nature will take care of this problem in a crash, the question is whether
the crash brings us to Zero or some number above Zero which is sustainable. If
that number is above Zero, I don't think we will be Cavemen again. Neither
however will we ever be McMansion dwelling, SUV driving, McMuffin eating pigs
again either.

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 04:25:06 AM »
This thread has led to some interesting speculation and is certainly worthy of a blog post. Hoping eG will oblige. Good stuff.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

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Re: Large Public Works Projects
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »
The History of  : information hitsory An automobile powered by a Otto gasoline engine was built in Germany by  in 1885 and granted a patent in the following year. Although several other engineers (including Gottlieb Daimler, Wilhelm Maybach and Siegfried Marcus) were working on the problem at about the same time, Benz is generally credited with the invention of the modern automobile.The large-scale, production-line manufacturing of affordable automobiles was debuted by Ransom Eli Olds at his Oldsmobile factory in 1902. This assembly line concept was then greatly expanded by Henry Ford in the 1910s. Development of automotive technology was rapid, due in part to the hundreds of small manufacturers competing to gain the world's attention. Key developments included electric ignition and the electric self-starter (both by Charles Kettering, for the Cadillac Motor Company in 1910-1911), independent suspension, and four-wheel brakes.Although various pistonless rotary engine designs have attempted to compete with the conventional piston and crankshaft design, only Mazda's version of the Wankel engine has had more than very limited success.Since the 1920s, nearly all cars have been mass-produced to meet market needs, so marketing plans have often heavily influenced automobile design. It was Alfred P. Sloan who established the idea of different makes of cars produced by one company, so that buyers could  move up  as their fortunes improved. The makes shared parts with one another so that the larger production volume resulted in lower costs for each price range. For example, in the 1950s, Chevrolet shared hood, doors, roof, and windows with Pontiac; the LaSalle of the 1930s, sold by Cadillac, used the cheaper mechanical parts made by the Oldsmobile divisionSource:

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Re: How your Opinions Change over time
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 05:24:54 PM »

The biggest technological challenge is in the area of Food Production. Clearly
without the fertilizers and without the Tractors, there is no way we can sustain
the level of food production we have now. Also, with only Wind driven pumps to
pump up water from diminished aquifers, the amount of irrigation possible will
be minimal. With the degraded environment we have left here at the end of the
Oil Era, the amount of food we can produce will be only a fraction of what it is
now. So you definitely see a massive reduction in population. One can only
hope this occurs sort of naturally over a timespan of 50-100 years, which itself
would be very fast, but if it happens faster than that its hard to say what
comes out the other side, if anything. You can only imagine Mad Max in those
scenarios.

This reasoning is already obsolete.

Using hydroponics technology which is available today, which does not rely on massive tracts of farmland or massive quantities of water,  fertilizer and machinery to produce food, the food supply could be increased exponentially at the same time as resource use is reduced massively.

I will get back to the hydroponics thread eventually.

Quote
Canada: High-tech greenhouse planned for Vancouver parkade rooftop
http://www.greenhouse.net/wholesale-greenhouse-supplies.html





The roof of a city-owned downtown parkade will be converted to a high-tech vertical growing space capable of producing 95 tonnes of fresh vegetables a year. Vancouver-based Valcent Products has entered into a memorandum of understanding with EasyPark, the corporate manager of the city’s parkades, to build a 6,000-square-foot greenhouse on underutilized space on the roof of the parkade at 535 Richards Street, in the heart of the downtown core. The inside of the greenhouse will be anything but ordinary. Four-metre-high stacks of growing trays on motorized conveyors will ferry plants up, down and around for watering, to capture the sun’s rays and then move them into position for an easy harvest. The array will produce about the same amount of produce as 6.4 hectares (16 acres) of California fields, according to Christopher Ng, chief operating officer of Valcent.

Construction will begin on the project in January, with an eye to harvesting the first crops in April. The greenhouse will cover less than half of the available space on the rooftop, leaving open the possibility that a second, equally productive greenhouse can be built in the future. Ng reasons that Valcent’s growing technology is a perfect match with Vancouver’s stated goal of becoming the greenest city in the world by 2020. He found the city was not only willing to listen to his idea, but also to act on it. EasyPark came up with suggestions for properties that might work.

EasyPark general manager Mel McKinney for EasyPark sees the VertiCrop installation as a way to promote environmental leadership while repurposing an underused city asset.

“This long-term lease generates direct financial benefit to Vancouverites while showcasing Vancouver’s sustainability innovation,” said
McKinney in a quote supplied by email. “We saw some synergy ... between [the city’s] greenest city goals and our technology to grow food in an urban environment,” Ng said. Valcent has struck the deal with EasyPark and local food supplier PSWJ Holdings to market and distribute the produce. Talks are also underway with a bicycle-based food delivery company and Ng figures to lure the city’s top chefs aboard once the quality of the product is established. The VertiCrop system can be used to grow at least 20 varieties of lettuces, herbs and greens, provided they are under 30 centimetres (one foot) tall.

The Richards Street property has good access to light throughout the day despite being surrounded by tall buildings, so no artificial lighting will be required. Heat will be provided by the sun through much of the year and low-carbon hydroelectric power during the coldest months. The greenhouse will be clad with fluoropolymer sheets rather than glass to enhance light transmission and reduce the risk of damage due to wind.

Growing greens close to home makes sense both environmentally and nutritionally, Ng said. “In the winter our lettuce comes from California, Mexico and as far south as Chile,” he said. “The food miles are just phenomenal. “Plus, lettuce loses half its nutritional value in the first 96 hours after you pick it. California lettuce hasn’t even crossed the border in 96 hours.” The memorandum calls for a formal lease on the parkade space to be signed within 90 days.

Source: vancouversun.com       
Publication date: 12/14/2011

Hydroponics does not need to be high tech.

Crops grown outdoors in gravel with water recirculated. Works even in desert climates with a bit of shade.

The main differences from traditional growing that make hydroponics vastly more efficient at growing food than traditional methods are very simple in principle and in practice.

1) Take the nutrients the plants need to grow out of the soil and instead place them into solution. Good soil is no longer required as the grow medium is only used to support the plant physically. Anything inert works well as a support medium. Traditional soil can only hold a limited amount of nutrients so each plant needed substantial root space. This substantial root space was difficult if not impossible to isolate from the surrounding ground material so that any fertilizer applied to the plants mostly dissipated into the surround ground to contaminate it without ever contributing to the food crop growth.

2) Once the growing medium is only needed for support the volume of it needed can be reduce substantially allowing it to be isolated from the general environment so the nutrient solution applied to the plants only feeds the food crop and does not leach into the environment. The amount of nutrient the plants uptake is infinitesimal and nutrient solution can be recycled because it does not drain away into the environment. Applying nutrient in a confined hydroponic space means that somewhere in the order of 1% of the nutrient required for traditional growing is all that is required.

3) Traditional crops are hugely water inefficient because any water applied to the plants drains away into the surrounding environment, while at the same time leaching away any nutrients applied to the plant or in the soil. Generally the surrounding ground needs to be saturated to assure water uptake by the crops. This takes far more water than the plants themselves need.

In hydroponics where the medium is generally insoluble to water and does not absorb it and is alos confined to a small space where it cannot drain away into the environment and instead is recycled the volume of water required is tiny as compared to traditional growing. Again in the order of 1% or so. This volume of water doesn not require vast irrigation systems.

4) Because nutrient solutions can be much higher in nutrient content than soil, plants can be planted in much closer proximity to each other without competing for limited nutrition.

5) Packing plants tighter, utilizing very little water and growing medium and also using newer energy efficient lighting means you can grow efficiently anywhere even indoors.   

6) Growing indoors means you are no longer limited by climate. You can grow crops anywhere year round.

7) Growing crops anywhere, including abandoned warehouses, and highrises in urban centers means you no longer need a massive distribution network to move food from where it will grow traditionally to where it will be consumed.

8) You can grow enough food for yourself wherever you live without resorting to large scale agricultural infrastructure or equipment. It can be accomplished with simple handwork.

9) Wouldn't it be great to make supermarkets obsolete and instead grow for yourself and have a small scale barter system to share with other nearby small growers who specialize in crops other than those you grow?

There are so many things that large scale adoption of hydroponics would radically change about the nature of our society and also reduce exponentially the amount of energy we require to support ourselves that is would take a massive book to list them all.


We are told that hydroponic growing is inferior to traditional growing in soil but that perception is based on consuming plants grown by commercial hydroponic growers that are optimized for introducing into the current distribution system. They are treated the same way as traditional crops to do things like maximize shelf life by picking before ripe and all sorts of specialized gaseous and irradiation treatments for shelf longevity. Personally I have found growing hydroponic crops for myself with the same care as in a home garden produces food every bit as good as traditional methods if not better for some crops.

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Re: How your Opinions Change over time
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 06:01:17 PM »

This reasoning is already obsolete.


OK, I forgot about Hydroponics possibilities.  :oops:  Mea Culpa.

At the same time, I don't see hydroponic substitution as occurring rapidly enough to substitute for the fall off in food production from the industrial ag apparatus.  I think it can make a difference in some locales, but ramping it up globally fast enough here is problematic.  Not the least of the problems is the fact that Monsanto and Conagra will be fighting against any self-generated food production capability by J6P.  Of all the Conduits, maintaining control over the food production and distribution apparatus is primary to Illuminati control over the population.  You may be able to implement Hydroponics on the small scale if you stay under the radar, but on the large scale to implement it will take a full scale Revolution and Reign of Terror to hand the Illuminati a One Way Ticket to the Great Beyond.

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Re: How your Opinions Change over time
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 11:15:29 PM »

This reasoning is already obsolete.


OK, I forgot about Hydroponics possibilities.  :oops:  Mea Culpa.

At the same time, I don't see hydroponic substitution as occurring rapidly enough to substitute for the fall off in food production from the industrial ag apparatus.  I think it can make a difference in some locales, but ramping it up globally fast enough here is problematic.  Not the least of the problems is the fact that Monsanto and Conagra will be fighting against any self-generated food production capability by J6P.  Of all the Conduits, maintaining control over the food production and distribution apparatus is primary to Illuminati control over the population.  You may be able to implement Hydroponics on the small scale if you stay under the radar, but on the large scale to implement it will take a full scale Revolution and Reign of Terror to hand the Illuminati a One Way Ticket to the Great Beyond.

RE
                                                                                                                         Totally agree, there is not enough time to go this route. Let's just mention one major crop, corn. In the USA alone we are producing over 10 Billion bushels per year and using so much oil based fertilizer to do it that is frightening. How do you replace a fall of in that crop from peak oil and massive price increases due to the ensuing oil price spike with Hydroponics. The acreage alone to grow that crop blankets a half dozen states. Rest assured also that the cost estimates projected for that Vancouver skyscraper are way to low as well as the time to get it up and running. They ALWAYS are. This is the same as windmills, it sounds good and has sporadic success in a few locals, but forget it when you get into the big picture.

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Re: How your Opinions Change over time
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 05:12:25 AM »
http://www.indoorgardensalem.org/pages/corn_can_be_grown_in_hydroponic_.htm

       Totally agree, there is not enough time to go this route. Let's just mention one major crop, corn. In the USA alone we are producing over 10 Billion bushels per year and using so much oil based fertilizer to do it that is frightening. How do you replace a fall of in that crop from peak oil and massive price increases due to the ensuing oil price spike with Hydroponics. The acreage alone to grow that crop blankets a half dozen states. Rest assured also that the cost estimates projected for that Vancouver skyscraper are way to low as well as the time to get it up and running. They ALWAYS are. This is the same as windmills, it sounds good and has sporadic success in a few locals, but forget it when you get into the big picture.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=3uqIHH4dpAkC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=hydroponic+corn&source=bl&ots=4VI2rTzboo&sig=w_OKi9HrHbjH4lAhrkLWf-eMtK4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZiidT8vdIo3ViAKJh9Vb&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=hydroponic%20corn&f=false


hydrocorn
hydrocorn
corn2
corn2


Quote
Corn can be grown in hydroponic tubs, and is usually planted six per tub. The corn should be planted directly into the tub because it does not transplant well. The corn plants will produce about three ears of corn per plant, or about 18 ears per harvest. A harvest usually occurs within 8 to 10 weeks of planting. That means that the average production of corn is about one ear of corn every four days in each tub.

Corn is an ancient South American plant which was engineered perhaps from a grass called teosinte.

The corn is planted about one inch below the surface, and usually germinates in about six days. The places where corn does not grow should be replanted to ensure six plants per tub.

Hopi Blue corn has about 12% more protein then sweet hybrid corn, so if the corn is raised for nutrition, it makes sense to plant an Native American corn.

Corn is nitrogen hungry and usually kept on grow nutrient until after the top has tasseled and the silk has formed.

When the corn tassels, the pollen has to fall from above onto the leaves below and into the fold of the leaf. If all the silk is pollinated the corn kernels should all form.

Corn pollinates the silk coming out of the corn from the tassels at the top of the plant. Ears of corn that are not fully filled out is a result of not enough pollination. Planting several short rows is better than one or two long rows. This will ensure proper pollination. In a very small garden you can take a tassel and go around tapping some of the pollen on each of the silks to increase the chances of pollination.

Corn can grow very tall in hydroponic culture. Expect the corn to grow to seven feet tall. Also, with corn, at least 50% of the plant is stalk and not edible. In hydroponics the corn is often a smaller percentage. There is a loss of nutrient in this process. However, corn stalks make a viable paper product and can be used to wrap food. They are also excellent in composting.

Hydroponic Nutrients: Corn likes a high nitrogen so it should be kept on Grow nutrient throughout the life cycle. For field crops apply fertilizers high in nitrogen and phosphorous with moderate amounts of potassium.

Diseases: Bacterial wilt, Corn smut, Mosaic, and Rust.

Harvest: Check an ear of corn by pulling back the shuck at the end of an ear to see if its filled out. Juice from a kernel should spurt out when poked at with a fingernail. Generally, when the silk turns brown and the ear is firm when squeezed it's time to harvest the corn.

4e6a57ea3d7ba preview 300
4e6a57ea3d7ba preview 300

Quote
Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:14 pm

By SUE ROESLER, The Prairie Star | 0 comments

Growing forage in a greenhouse might seem like an expensive way to feed dairy or beef cattle or other livestock, but in certain situations it could prove very beneficial.

For instance, in drought conditions it could provide producers with an excellent source of forage, said Paul Brentlinger, president of CropKing, based in Ohio. After all, cattle are able to eat the whole thing, sprout mat and all.

CropKing is one of several companies that are offering the forage systems, as well as other systems for hydroponic growing.

With hydroponics, plants can be grown in a small amount of water on a mat with added nutrients – but without soil.

“With hydroponics, you can grow forage in a greenhouse and grow it faster – harvesting in as little as seven to 10 days,” Brentlinger said. “It is really simple; there is no soil involved.”

CropKing’s Fodder Solutions system is a hydroponic growing system that has been specifically developed to sprout grain and legume seeds for highly nutritious yet cost-effective livestock feed.

Hydroponic technology allows fresh feed and produce to be grown anywhere. A thousand pounds of barley, wheat or corn grows into 7,000-8,000 pounds of feed in only 10 days, he said.

“Typically, farmers are growing barley grass,” Brentlinger said.

CropKing doesn’t provide the seed, just the forage system, and producers buy their own seed from their dealer.

Nearly any kind of seed responds to this system, Brentlinger said, adding producers can use a low dose of organic fertilizer to grow the seed successfully.

“When the forage is grown, producers just roll it up, grass and roots together, and feed it to their cattle,” he said.

CropKing will be providing a forage system to ATI, Ohio State University’s Extension, to do more research on growing forage hydroponically and to get some data on its effects in milk and weight. The university Extension hasbeen researching hydroponics since 1999, but hasn’t researched hydroponic forage until now.

“One of the drawbacks is there isn’t a lot of research on the forage systems. This would provide that,” Brentlinger said.

Hydroponics is becoming more important to farmers worldwide, he said, due to the lack of land.

For instance, the forage system has been used by dairy producers with limited pasture land.

They can grow their forage in a hydroponic system, rather than having to find more land.

And they can grow it in the winter when conditions might prevent cattle from foraging for nutritious grass.

“Producers around the world are having to focus on more intensive farming with harsher conditions and a lack of land,” he said. “It is not easy to grow good quality hay in drought conditions, and often pasture or crop land is not available or is very expensive.”

Research on good quality forage which can be produced hydroponically has shown that milk yields can be increased in dairy cows, the vigor and performance of racehorses is improved; and there is a higher protein content than hay so it is more easily digested, according to CropKing’s web site.

Brentlinger said the main goal of CropKing is to assist growers in hydroponic vegetable and other crop production.

“We have growers in every state and over a dozen different countries who utilize our system to grow high value crops like tomatoes and lettuce,” he said, adding that it is a “way for farmers to diversify.”

In addition to growing crops like soybeans, wheat and corn, some farmers are growing vegetables hydroponically in greenhouses for local farmers’ markets or grocery stores.

“You can absolutely grow forage or vegetables in below zero weather, but the heat cost has to be figured in,” he said.

For more on CropKing’s hydroponic systems, see www.cropking.com.

Hydroponic forage growing is already done on a large scale in some parts of Brazil.

There are dwarf versions of wheat and rice that do extremely well hydroponically. It is within the scope of individuals growing enough of these crops to feed themselves.

Corn has a 120 day crop cycle meaning 3 crops a year if grown indoors. This means you only need 1/3 the space of a single yearly crop. Add that to the average 100:1 space saving for hydroponics and it doesn't take much space.

I agree that it is unlikely that hydroponics will be developed quickly enough to become a viable alternative for everyone. This has more to do with it being against the best interests of TPTB than it does with feasibility. However there is nothing to stop individuals with foresight setting themselves up to grow their own food hydroponically.

If you factor in the cost of purchasing farmland, developing the infrastructure needed to support large scale traditional farming, and nutrient application costs, hydroponic startup costs appear very reasonable.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:16:43 AM by peter »

 

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