AuthorTopic: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?  (Read 2487 times)

Offline edpell

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« on: October 26, 2015, 06:26:19 PM »
Does anyone know the cost of synthetic liquid fuel? There seems to be a large range of opinion from $51 BOE to $510 BOE.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 38939
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 06:44:12 PM »
Since you can run a Diesel Engine on Vegetable Oil, at the moment it would be whatever the cost is for a gallon of Canola Oil is at the supermarket in your neighborhood.

Obviously of course that vegetable oil has been subsdized in production in many ways, so it's not the"real" cost.  To find that out, you would need to produce vegetable oil and/or ethanol on your own property, see how much that costs and how much you pay for the land to grow the stuff on.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17502
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 08:00:34 PM »
There are several variations of synthetic liquid fuel. Alcohol is one. Wood gas is another. Biodiesel a third. Cost varies according to the type of biomass substrate you're using, the scale of the process, and so forth. It's possible to make some of these things, and some ICE engines will run on them. Not all.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 38939
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 08:05:30 PM »
There are several variations of synthetic liquid fuel. Alcohol is one. Wood gas is another. Biodiesel a third. Cost varies according to the type of biomass substrate you're using, the scale of the process, and so forth. It's possible to make some of these things, and some ICE engines will run on them. Not all.

According to Roamer in our conversations here, you can adapt almost any ICE engine to run on charcoal gassification, and by extension I am quite sure you could run them on other biofuels as well as long as you gassify the stuff before inputting it to the cylinders.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline MKing

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 09:23:25 PM »
Does anyone know the cost of synthetic liquid fuel? There seems to be a large range of opinion from $51 BOE to $510 BOE.

True synthetic fuel, constructed from natural gas and built into whatever liquid equivalent you'd like, gasoline or diesel or JP2, sells for a profit at about $5/qt, call it $25/gal.

The IEA estimated in 2008 dollars that CTL, GTL, tar sands, ranges from $80-$150/barrel. Approximately 10,000 scf of natural gas is required to manufacture a barrel of synthetic crude, and 10,000 scf sells for $1-3 on the spot market without liquification, that puts the feedstock cost at $10-$30/bbl, plus capital investment unit costs might land a bit lower than the IEA estimates today.

I've seen all in estimates for GTL at $125/bbl, from more than reliable sources, so all of these numbers tend to line up, give or take.



Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline edpell

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2015, 11:20:56 AM »
I am a numbers guy. I like numbers. I agree there are a huge variety of synthetics and uses. I am interested in a ball park cost number for one or better several of these using energy content to normalize to oil (BOE).

I like the canola oil example. I will go a find the wholesale price. And yes it is recursive if instead of using cheap coal and oil to make canola I had to use higher priced canola oil to make canola oil what would the price be, etc... But as a first pass I like it. I'll let you know what I find.

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17502
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 12:00:30 PM »
They grow the hell out of Canola in France, and I understand they do make fuel out of it. I'm sure there are numbers for EROEI out there, but I've never studied it. I suspect that it's a boondoggle like ethanol, but I don't really know that.

See MKing above for more info. I just approved his post.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17502
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 12:35:31 PM »
Apparently an awful lot of Canola is grown all over Europe, and it's made into biodiesel. However the EROEI pretty much sucks according to what I read.

maximum EROEI value of 2.52 at maximum attainable yield of 5.52 ton/ha. For the majority of EU countries the EROEI value is 1.24-2.32. More than 26% of the total area in Europe can produce rapeseed biofuel only with an energy loss. The research indicated that unless there are some major technological improvements in rapeseed production and processing, in EU, which can increase the efficiency of biodiesel production in supplementing fossil fuels by biofuels is not a feasible option.

http://www.itc.nl/library/papers_2011/msc/gem/firrisa.pdf

This is in line with ethanol production here, which to a numbers guy, should indicate it takes almost as much energy to produce a gallon of this stuff as it yields back. So it appears that it is a scam, a way of subsidizing industrial agriculture, which is a favorite pastime of corrupt governments everywhere these days. That's the story on ethanol in the US.

But substrate is important. In Brazil, they use sugar cane to make ethanol, and the reported EROEI is around 8, which is decent.

Here's a meta study of EROEI for a whole bunch of energy sources, from 2011. Not sure I take all these stats at face value, but maybe it's accurate. At least you can make some rough comparisons.



http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 12:42:00 PM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline edpell

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 01:23:19 PM »
Strange oil is going for about $680/ton and rapeseed oil for about $755/ton. It looks like all oils have +-10% same energy content per Kg.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/rapeseed_oil_price

Offline MKing

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 02:14:33 PM »
I am a numbers guy. I like numbers. I agree there are a huge variety of synthetics and uses. I am interested in a ball park cost number for one or better several of these using energy content to normalize to oil (BOE).

At $150/bbl, I can drown you in synthetic oil. From GTL's. I don't consider tar sand oil to be synthetic.

The drop of BTU's from 10,000 scf to 6,000 scf is the energy lost in conversion to create that barrel when it comes to natural gas.

I use natural gas just because the economics of micro-conversion are becoming near oil field pad break even (flared gas being the problem the oil field is attempting to solve) and there is enough natural gas around to drown the world in it. And of course the Shell Pearl plant is not just demonstrating the economics of the technology, but selling it to consumers on Walmart shelves.



Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline edpell

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2015, 02:54:38 PM »
MKing thanks for the info. What does GTL stand for?

Online azozeo

  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 9181
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2015, 03:44:14 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xrBUoxLbg9c&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/xrBUoxLbg9c&fs=1</a>


fossil fuels are just that ..... FOSSILS !
That shit belongs in a museum somewhere.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline MKing

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2015, 04:20:13 PM »
MKing thanks for the info. What does GTL stand for?

Gas to liquids.

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline MKing

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 04:21:11 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xrBUoxLbg9c&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/xrBUoxLbg9c&fs=1</a>


fossil fuels are just that ..... FOSSILS !
That shit belongs in a museum somewhere.

and how much of your electricity is generated by plasma reactors, as compared to fossil fuels?
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline edpell

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of synthetic liquid fuel?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 12:37:11 PM »
Why three up and one down? Why not all four pointing towards the center? How exactly does gravity come into the picture?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
8 Replies
24933 Views
Last post December 07, 2012, 08:35:35 PM
by peter
14 Replies
2478 Views
Last post March 11, 2013, 05:47:59 AM
by luciddreams
Spent Fuel Rods

Started by Theta « 1 2 » Nuke Puke

15 Replies
3027 Views
Last post February 07, 2016, 08:32:16 PM
by K-Dog