AuthorTopic: $1000 per month gauranteed income  (Read 12348 times)

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2015, 03:32:14 PM »
First qn GO,  what will u do with 18T $ and rising, already mathematically impossible to pay debt?
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline azozeo

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income- $40,000 A Year For All US Citizens.
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2015, 03:33:10 PM »


It could work with a supportive citizenry and a government that got of it's duff and decided to work for the benefit of all the people. It could be paid for by a simple national sales tax of say 5% on everything, by everyone, no exceptions whatsoever, including religions.

Comments and criticisms from Diners welcomed. Yes I know the can of worms this opens up as well, but something creative, dynamic and fair has to be done, the current system is a failure.

How does the math work on that one? 250 Million adult Americans being paid 40K per year works out to what?

That many zeros makes me start to feel nauseous just trying to do simple arithmetic, but If I did it right it amounts to ten trillion dollars a year.

That number is roughly equal to the total gross personal income of all Americans combined, right now. Rich and poor.

The entire GDP of the country is only about 18 trillion now., and total retail sales amounts to a little under 5 trillion per year. A 5% sales tax would only raise 250 billion. You'd be short by a factor of 40X.



Ed,
Your killin' me here.
25 X 4 = 100
Add the zeros & you should have a lot less than that.
In my post I just said give everybody $1M . That equals $350M

So the population of the US is 350 people? You're the one who needs to check your math, my brother.

350 million people times 1 million dollars actually amounts to  $350,000,000,000,000.



Yeah,
You're right.
It's been a long day for me. My brains turned to mush by this time.
I've always been one to do the math in my head 1st.
It stems back to my casino days of counting cards. When I dealt BJ.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income- $40,000 A Year For All US Citizens.
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2015, 03:39:44 PM »


Yeah,
You're right.
It's been a long day for me. My brains turned to mush by this time.
I've always been one to do the math in my head 1st.
It stems back to my casino days of counting cards. When I dealt BJ.

Numbers that big just blow my mind. Fortunately you can just google it now. I don't have that many place holders on my calculator.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2015, 03:44:44 PM »
The whole exercise quickly highlights one good reason for NOT helicoptering money.

 I mean, giving everyone an extra hundred dollars back on their tax refund is hard enough to pay for, when you're doing it for hundreds of millions of people. Giving everyone a guaranteed income just requires more money than we actually have to spend as a society. There is no way.

If helicoptering does occur (and it might), then it will be a token amount, just to juice retail sales at Christmas or something like that. It won't be anything more than that. jmho
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline azozeo

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2015, 03:48:14 PM »
5 years ago we would have said "put down the crack pipe"
If someone were to tell us that same sex marriage & the gov't
knows that cannabis kills cancer were to become a reality.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2015, 03:59:44 PM »
Aside from the math problem of handing out $40K/year to 330M people, there are numerous other problems involved here.

For instance, how old do you need to be to start getting your monthly check?  Do kids get checks too?  They do in Alaska with the PFD.  If you are married and have 4 kids, this year in Alaska the PFD sent you a check for $12K!

The real problem here though is how money derives its value in the first place, which is because for all but the very well connected at the top of the food chain, it is SCARCE and hard to come by.  Pigmen can issue out debt and pay themselves $Millions$ in Bonuses, but most people have to actually WORK for a living.

If everybody got $40K/year, the $40K would devalue.  You would need to also institute price controls on rent, food, fuel etc to keep those prices from upward spiraling.  The rentier class would raise the rents to as high as the market would bear, which is what they already do, so you would have to eliminate rent-seeking by individuals owning multiple dwellings they rent out to others.

On the upside, if you did nationalize all real estate and fix your food & fuel prices, you could eliminate some of the waste in the welfare bureaucracy.  It would level the playing field somewhat for a while.  Many other prices would need to be fixed as well, such as what a doctor could charge for a visit, a dentist could charge for a filling or a lwayer could charge for a consult.  Their incomes would need to be reigned in and controled, otherwise they would continue to suck most of the real economy income in their direction, charging as much as the market will bear.

What you are talking about here in essence is a COMMAND ECONOMY, which is probably possible now with supercomputers on the job, but not only would the Masters of the Universe not like this, your upper middle class to rich folks in high income jobs would not like it much either.  It would forcibly reduce their income.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2015, 04:06:52 PM »
your upper middle class to rich folks in high income jobs would not like it much either.  It would forcibly reduce their income.


I just showed that if we paid every adult 40K, that essentially that would use up the current amount of money being claimed legally as income in the U.S.....so not only would 40K be the minimum, it would also be the maximum, unless GDP per capita rises.

So a guaranteed 40K stipend amounts to full-on communism. We could do that, I guess. I think I'd like to take my 40K and sail around the world. I want to work as a sailing journalist. Why not? All jobs pay the same.
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Offline MKing

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2015, 04:08:00 PM »
The whole exercise quickly highlights one good reason for NOT helicoptering money.

 I mean, giving everyone an extra hundred dollars back on their tax refund is hard enough to pay for, when you're doing it for hundreds of millions of people. Giving everyone a guaranteed income just requires more money than we actually have to spend as a society. There is no way.

Teaching the next generation to do nothing but wait around for their stipend to arrive, prior to blowing it on parties, reefer and attempts to lure those of the opposite sex into close contact.
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline Fenixor

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2015, 04:12:36 PM »
A basic income of ~SEK 9000 (US$1056) per person/month over 18 is something promoted here in Sweden. This sum would only be enough to survive on, not to consume extra stuff, and would replace all other welfare checks including the current administrative costs (which is a huge sum of money). By dismantling parts of the enormous state apparatus you could free up energy towards smaller more localised projects that would self-organize. There are several municipalities or regions that already have some form of basic income, often linked to certain local initiatives (http://www.basicincome.org/). In that case you could tie a basic income to say recycling efforts or some other public good. Also ordinary people could chose to get all the money (x amount of years times monthly sum) in total to start a business which would otherwise been impossible. But this in itself would not be sufficient since rich countries will have to lower their consumption per capita anyway (or be forced to do it and suffer massive inequality). So you would have to shift the entire economic structure, from production toward maintenance, to serve an aging population and lower resource consumption. Shifting taxes from labor towards heavy industries and resource extraction would be necessary.



« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 04:39:03 PM by Eddie »

Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2015, 04:19:24 PM »
I think I'd like to take my 40K and sail around the world. I want to work as a sailing journalist. Why not? All jobs pay the same.

That choice could be eliminated.  You only get your check as long as you stay inside the borders of the FSoA.

Job choices could be incentivized also.  Make the law that all Able Bodied people must work to receive their check.  If you have knowledge, talent and ability to be a Dentist, you can do that for work.  If you choose not to do that, the State will assign you the job of shoveling shit.  They both pay the same, but which one would you choose to do?

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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2015, 04:26:05 PM »
They both pay the same, but which one would you choose to do?

I would choose to vote with my feet. Absolutely no doubt about that one. Fuck work.

 However, unlike many people in my position, I have worked as a professional shit shoveler (as a college student, where I mucked stalls on a horse farm, not for money, but for rent). I did it for a year, and it wasn't too bad. I got free horse manure, and I had a garden to die for. And a 12 by 24 greenhouse that we filled with beautiful plants. That was the best and only good year of my first marriage.
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Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2015, 04:33:11 PM »
They both pay the same, but which one would you choose to do?

I would choose to vote with my feet.

Vote with your feet and go precisely WHERE? Get on the Refugee Highway?

If the FSoA goes Full On Communista, where will you go, how will you escape?  Especially since the Hosers in the Great White North will probably get to that political organization first.  Sweden is out, it will be full of Syrians by the time you get there.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2015, 04:40:37 PM »
A basic income of ~SEK 9000 (US$1056) per person/month over 18 is something promoted here in Sweden. This sum would only be enough to survive on, not to consume extra stuff, and would replace all other welfare checks including the current administrative costs (which is a huge sum of money). By dismantling parts of the enormous state apparatus you could free up energy towards smaller more localised projects that would self-organize. There are several municipalities or regions that already have some form of basic income, often linked to certain local initiatives (http://www.basicincome.org/). In that case you could tie a basic income to say recycling efforts or some other public good. Also ordinary people could chose to get all the money (x amount of years times monthly sum) in total to start a business which would otherwise been impossible. But this in itself would not be sufficient since rich countries will have to lower their consumption per capita anyway (or be forced to do it and suffer massive inequality). So you would have to shift the entire economic structure, from production toward maintenance, to serve an aging population and lower resource consumption. Shifting taxes from labor towards heavy industries and resource extraction would be necessary.


[/size]

You can't even cover housing here on that sum anymore, much less buy food. I know that there are cheaper places to live in the US, but there are more expensive places too. And at 250,000,000 work age people, that stills ends up being a couple of trillion and change. That's more than double the ENTIRE current outlay for ALL entitlement programs.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:01:40 PM by Eddie »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2015, 04:44:40 PM »


LOL.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2015, 04:49:25 PM »


LOL.

Looks like Tristan da Cunha.

They'll be Commies too!

LOL.

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