AuthorTopic: $1000 per month gauranteed income  (Read 12347 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2015, 04:58:12 PM »
I'd hate to live on a steady diet of communists, but it beats the alternative, given the scenario you're describing.
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2015, 04:59:54 PM »
"Make the law that all Able Bodied people must work to receive their check."

But that  biblical rule,  (Paul said if a man does not work neither should he eat) gets totally away from the original golden penision program.
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Offline MKing

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2015, 05:00:54 PM »
They both pay the same, but which one would you choose to do?

I would choose to vote with my feet. Absolutely no doubt about that one. Fuck work.

Hoo Raw!!

Teach them young to be moochers, and you'll guarantee a democrat for life!!

Quote from: Eddie
However, unlike many people in my position, I have worked as a professional shit shoveler (as a college student, where I mucked stalls on a horse farm, not for money, but for rent).

I didn't shovel it. I just cleaned toilets. That, and digging regular ditches, motivated me to go not just far beyond my upbringing, but to take out those silver spoon in mouth pukes as well.

Quote from: Eddie
I did it for a year, and it wasn't too bad. I got free horse manure, and I had a garden to die for. And a 12 by 24 greenhouse that we filled with beautiful plants. That was the best and only good year of my first marriage.

I never mucked the stalls on the farms much, going for hay baling instead. I'll give anyone who wants it a $1000/month stipend after they put in 2 years mandatory military service, followed by another 5 years of civil service, sort of like WPA?

At least then they'll have an introduce to being more than just some random mooch.
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Offline Fenixor

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2015, 05:07:56 PM »
You can't even cover housing here on that sum anymore, much less buy food. I know that there are cheaper places to live in the US, but there are more expensive places too. And at 250,000,000 work age people, that stills ends up being a couple of trillion and change. That's more than double the ENTIRE current outlay for ALL entitlement programs.

Well it's not supposed to cover all costs, people still have to work but it could cover food needs (to survive). Yes it is a lot of money and I don't know the specifics for the US but what if you included all your military expenditure? I mean here we spend less than 1% on the military.

Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2015, 05:10:32 PM »
They both pay the same, but which one would you choose to do?

I would choose to vote with my feet. Absolutely no doubt about that one. Fuck work.

Hoo Raw!!

Teach them young to be moochers, and you'll guarantee a democrat for life!!

Quote from: Eddie
However, unlike many people in my position, I have worked as a professional shit shoveler (as a college student, where I mucked stalls on a horse farm, not for money, but for rent).

I didn't shovel it. I just cleaned toilets. That, and digging regular ditches, motivated me to go not just far beyond my upbringing, but to take out those silver spoon in mouth pukes as well.

Quote from: Eddie
I did it for a year, and it wasn't too bad. I got free horse manure, and I had a garden to die for. And a 12 by 24 greenhouse that we filled with beautiful plants. That was the best and only good year of my first marriage.

I never mucked the stalls on the farms much, going for hay baling instead. I'll give anyone who wants it a $1000/month stipend after they put in 2 years mandatory military service, followed by another 5 years of civil service, sort of like WPA?

At least then they'll have an introduce to being more than just some random mooch.

I'd be happy to see some kind of national work service like WPA, although we couldn't really afford to pay even as much as what Fenixor was talking about. Not unless we did some things to pay for it...like collect taxes from the big corporations. Like cut the military budget back to  something half-way reasonable.

One thing for sure. You can't just print money and give it away. Not when resources are declining, all the jobs have been off-shored, and half the people in the country are retirement aged anyway.

I expect to see people working WPA for three hots and a cot, in a few years,and they'll be happy to get it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:15:58 PM by Eddie »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2015, 05:14:38 PM »
You can't even cover housing here on that sum anymore, much less buy food. I know that there are cheaper places to live in the US, but there are more expensive places too. And at 250,000,000 work age people, that stills ends up being a couple of trillion and change. That's more than double the ENTIRE current outlay for ALL entitlement programs.

Well it's not supposed to cover all costs, people still have to work but it could cover food needs (to survive). Yes it is a lot of money and I don't know the specifics for the US but what if you included all your military expenditure? I mean here we spend less than 1% on the military.

A very reasonable amount to spend on the military, 1%,  We spend nearly 16%, which is where the money we need for social programs goes now.

We also have made horrible decisions around healthcare that won't be corrected until the whole house of cards collapses. Those two things have already bankrupted the country, it just isn't generally recognized yet...but it will be.
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Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2015, 05:27:04 PM »
Just as a hypothetical, how about this one.

Bifurcate the monetary system, and take food and shelter OUT of the "free market", paid for by it's own form of Goobermint Coin.  Housing cost would be calculated by the square foot, and you get enough GC to cover 600 sq ft/person with bathroom and kitchenette, plus enough GC for up to 2000 calories/day of basic foodstuffs, nothing processed.

Everything else in the society needs to be purchased using the Free Market Coin, which you can earn any way you can other than selling Food or Renting shelter.  The FMC can be issued either privately or by the state.

Thoughts?

RE
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2015, 06:13:54 PM »
these exist as public housing or 'section 8' and the ag to govt bailout/debt cycle that keeps food way below what it is worth as well as other types of payments for people to buy food with. Its all more layers of beauracracy, and meaningless without more oil, less debt and less co2.

Get rid of money altogether, that solves at least half the evil in the world.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 06:19:41 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline edpell

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2015, 06:16:04 PM »
RE I like the bifurcated economy idea.

I am not forcing anyone to work. I am suggesting making citizens owners of the means of production. Then employees will work. Renters of housing and commercial space will pay rent.

Yes, I will force the idle owners of inherited wealth to get a job. I will force the executive of the corporation that stole the employees pensions and retirement medical to get a job. 

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income- $40,000 A Year For All US Citizens.
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2015, 06:39:56 PM »


It could work with a supportive citizenry and a government that got of it's duff and decided to work for the benefit of all the people. It could be paid for by a simple national sales tax of say 5% on everything, by everyone, no exceptions whatsoever, including religions.

Comments and criticisms from Diners welcomed. Yes I know the can of worms this opens up as well, but something creative, dynamic and fair has to be done, the current system is a failure.

How does the math work on that one? 250 Million adult Americans being paid 40K per year works out to what?

That many zeros makes me start to feel nauseous just trying to do simple arithmetic, but If I did it right it amounts to ten trillion dollars a year.

That number is roughly equal to the total gross personal income of all Americans combined, right now. Rich and poor.

The entire GDP of the country is only about 18 trillion now., and total retail sales amounts to a little under 5 trillion per year. A 5% sales tax would only raise 250 billion. You'd be short by a factor of 40X.

There would be no welfare, social security, Aid to dependent families, Rent subsidies and section 8 housing under my proposal,

There would be no disability, no food stamps, no massive Bureaucracy.  Give this idea some thought Eddie please, so, lower the stipend to 35 grand and make the national tax 10%.

They get close to it now while remaining poor from the fucking system. Look at what they get for welfare, food stamps, housing, medical, and the system is so corrupt and loaded with political plumb jobs it doesn't work.

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2015, 06:51:37 PM »
The whole exercise quickly highlights one good reason for NOT helicoptering money.

 I mean, giving everyone an extra hundred dollars back on their tax refund is hard enough to pay for, when you're doing it for hundreds of millions of people. Giving everyone a guaranteed income just requires more money than we actually have to spend as a society. There is no way.

Teaching the next generation to do nothing but wait around for their stipend to arrive, prior to blowing it on parties, reefer and attempts to lure those of the opposite sex into close contact.

Yes MKing, I thought of that too. But then a person like yourself came to mind.

Would you have reached much bigger academic heights, gotten a better education and much earlier when your mind was more receptive, avoided the horrors of poverty and hunger and homeless existence that you survived.

Do you think my plan would have made you a better and smarter person, or a moocher. I pick the former in your case.

This is a serious idea, and it doesn't put the world on easy street. It gives them a life above the poverty level, dignity, and and end of excuses for failure in an economic system.

It has more good than bad in my honest opinion.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:10:35 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2015, 06:56:21 PM »
Aside from the math problem of handing out $40K/year to 330M people, there are numerous other problems involved here.

For instance, how old do you need to be to start getting your monthly check?  Do kids get checks too?  They do in Alaska with the PFD.  If you are married and have 4 kids, this year in Alaska the PFD sent you a check for $12K!

The real problem here though is how money derives its value in the first place, which is because for all but the very well connected at the top of the food chain, it is SCARCE and hard to come by.  Pigmen can issue out debt and pay themselves $Millions$ in Bonuses, but most people have to actually WORK for a living.

No kids of course.  Every adult citizen, could be raised to 21 years of age, all sorts of tweaking to make it work out. remember the welfare state as well as social security and all the other shit would be gone.

Here it is.

No one is poor anymore.

Make the best of it.

If you blow it and fuck up, that's it, we did what we could for you as a just society. Go live under a park bench if a 40 thousand dollar a year minimum stipend doesn't work for you.







If everybody got $40K/year, the $40K would devalue.  You would need to also institute price controls on rent, food, fuel etc to keep those prices from upward spiraling.  The rentier class would raise the rents to as high as the market would bear, which is what they already do, so you would have to eliminate rent-seeking by individuals owning multiple dwellings they rent out to others.

On the upside, if you did nationalize all real estate and fix your food & fuel prices, you could eliminate some of the waste in the welfare bureaucracy.  It would level the playing field somewhat for a while.  Many other prices would need to be fixed as well, such as what a doctor could charge for a visit, a dentist could charge for a filling or a lwayer could charge for a consult.  Their incomes would need to be reigned in and controled, otherwise they would continue to suck most of the real economy income in their direction, charging as much as the market will bear.

What you are talking about here in essence is a COMMAND ECONOMY, which is probably possible now with supercomputers on the job, but not only would the Masters of the Universe not like this, your upper middle class to rich folks in high income jobs would not like it much either.  It would forcibly reduce their income.

RE
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:04:28 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2015, 07:08:11 PM »
Aside from the math problem of handing out $40K/year to 330M people, there are numerous other problems involved here.

For instance, how old do you need to be to start getting your monthly check?  Do kids get checks too?  They do in Alaska with the PFD.  If you are married and have 4 kids, this year in Alaska the PFD sent you a check for $12K!

The real problem here though is how money derives its value in the first place, which is because for all but the very well connected at the top of the food chain, it is SCARCE and hard to come by.  Pigmen can issue out debt and pay themselves $Millions$ in Bonuses, but most people have to actually WORK for a living.

If everybody got $40K/year, the $40K would devalue.  You would need to also institute price controls on rent, food, fuel etc to keep those prices from upward spiraling.  The rentier class would raise the rents to as high as the market would bear, which is what they already do, so you would have to eliminate rent-seeking by individuals owning multiple dwellings they rent out to others.

On the upside, if you did nationalize all real estate and fix your food & fuel prices, you could eliminate some of the waste in the welfare bureaucracy.  It would level the playing field somewhat for a while.  Many other prices would need to be fixed as well, such as what a doctor could charge for a visit, a dentist could charge for a filling or a lwayer could charge for a consult.  Their incomes would need to be reigned in and controled, otherwise they would continue to suck most of the real economy income in their direction, charging as much as the market will bear.

What you are talking about here in essence is a COMMAND ECONOMY, which is probably possible now with supercomputers on the job, but not only would the Masters of the Universe not like this, your upper middle class to rich folks in high income jobs would not like it much either.  It would forcibly reduce their income.

RE

You and Ed Pell are to hung up on the piggies. You can't think straight from it, you hate their balls so much.

Think about the 100 million disadvantaged, poor and suffering. This plan will help them and do nothing for the rich.

Change your focus, perhaps what you consider the rich won't suck so much if there are no poor. Whatever, focus on the fucking problem WILL YA GUYS.  The Rich arent't the fucking problem, they are not starving and living in tent cities are they?  :icon_scratch:

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2015, 07:21:05 PM »
First qn GO,  what will u do with 18T $ and rising, already mathematically impossible to pay debt?

Hi Unc. As a Gold Bug I do not view that number as real, only a fiction in the mind of fools who do not understand Fiat money.

It will be inflated out of existence until they cannot inflate anymore, or defaulted upon and everyone told it was just make believe, and you should have known we were fooling,  if we have a deflationary collapse.

Keep your eye upon the Doughnut ( GOLD) my friend, and not the hole.

                                       

Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2015, 07:31:49 PM »

Change your focus, perhaps what you consider the rich won't suck so much if there are no poor.

GO, you can't have Rich People without Poor People.  It's a relative description.

To eliminate "Rich" & "Poor", everyone has to have exactly the same access to resources.  Which I am all in favor of BTW, but it is straight up COMMUNISM, at least if done theoretically correctly, which has never happened, anymore than theoretical "free market capitalism" has ever happened.

RE
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:34:09 PM by RE »
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