AuthorTopic: $1000 per month gauranteed income  (Read 11244 times)

Offline MKing

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2015, 08:57:44 PM »
I expect to see people working WPA for three hots and a cot, in a few years,and they'll be happy to get it.

Well, that was a cool scenario for the original LATOCians, they had these fantasies of fedghettos and what not, katrina was a wet dream for that gang.

But a decade later, it hasn't happened, and doesn't look to be around the corner yet. Too much stuff still working, hell, I bet on doom back in August and have lost the bet. For now anyway.
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Offline MKing

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2015, 09:17:24 PM »
Teaching the next generation to do nothing but wait around for their stipend to arrive, prior to blowing it on parties, reefer and attempts to lure those of the opposite sex into close contact.

Yes MKing, I thought of that too. But then a person like yourself came to mind.

Would you have reached much bigger academic heights, gotten a better education and much earlier when your mind was more receptive, avoided the horrors of poverty and hunger and homeless existence that you survived.

Poverty isn't horror. It's poverty. And I don't think so. I wasn't horrified by my lifestyle, but rather motivated by it. The interesting question is, why among those I grew up with, was I one of the few to escape, when we all lived in the same basic social-economic group?

Quote from: Golden Oxen
Do you think my plan would have made you a better and smarter person, or a moocher. I pick the former in your case.

This is a serious idea, and it doesn't put the world on easy street. It gives them a life above the poverty level, dignity, and and end of excuses for failure in an economic system.

It has more good than bad in my honest opinion.

I do not know GO. There are many things in this world that need changed, some will undoubtedly be better than others, some worse, but I am pessimistic about the solutions proposed by most. However, to those of us who have built careers and success on delivering results, in any arena in which we choose to participate, I can only volunteer that it isn't a problem, unless someone has a solution. I'm not sure any of us have a solution yet.
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Offline g

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National Post
June 8, 2015
Old anti-poverty idea - guaranteed minimum income - getting new life in Alberta
By Joseph Brean
The idea of Alberta as a testing ground for a left wing social policy might seem strange, but with oil prices in the tank and the NDP in power, it has...

With its economy tethered to oil prices, Alberta is known for unconventional, even experimental economic policy.

When he was Alberta's finance minister, Stockwell Day implemented Canada's only flat tax. Ralph Bucks, also called "prosperity bonuses," redistributed a massive temporary surplus through payouts to citizens, while also respecting the province's value of freedom from government bureaucracy.
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Now, with oil prices in the tank and the NDP holding a new majority, a new experiment may be in the works.

A guaranteed minimum income, known as a mincome, has long been a pipe dream of economists across the political spectrum, but especially left-wing anti-poverty activists, people like Joe Ceci, a former Calgary alderman who was a star NDP candidate - and is Alberta's new finance minister.


The idea of traditionally conservative Alberta as a testing ground for a left wing social policy might seem strange, but it has increasing support.

"The frustrating thing is that we know what the answers are," Calgary Mayor Nenshi told the National Poverty Reduction Summit, according to a report last month by Roderick Benns of Leaders and Legacies. Nenshi was referring to the idea of negative taxation, which is one way to create a guaranteed minimum income. More recently, he told reporters he hopes Ceci will be bold.

"I am really, really interested if he will bring that to bear in terms of some really significant changes to the taxation system that would really help us manage poverty in a brand new way," Nenshi said.

Edmonton's mayor, Don Iveson, has likewise indicated that Alberta's two major urban hubs would be willing to host pilot programs to evaluate the consequences of guaranteeing income to adults, whether the social benefits outweigh the possibility of exploitation.

Canada has been a leader in this kind of experimenting, but it has been four decades since the last large scale effort, when everyone in Dauphin, Manitoba, was guaranteed a minimum income as a test case. The program ended without an official final analysis, but Evelyn Forget, an economist at the University of Manitoba, did her own analysis and found minor decreases in work effort but larger benefits on various social indicators, from hospitalizations to educational attainment.

"These results would seem to suggest that a Guaranteed Annual Income, implemented broadly in society, may improve health and social outcomes at the community level," she wrote.

Mincome is an idea that has had many champions over the ages, but few pioneers.

American Founding Father Thomas Paine, in an idea later echoed by Napoleon Bonaparte, argued that, because everyone is entitled to share in general prosperity, states should pay citizens a bonus, perhaps on their 21st birthday, which would minimize the "invidious distinctions" between rich and poor.

                                 

Jon Freilich/ Bloomberg News The late free market guru Milton Friedman favoured a guaranteed minimum income to simplify welfare.

Milton Friedman, the American icon of free market economics, liked the idea of simplifying welfare with a guaranteed minimum income and a flat tax, and argued for it in his book Capitalism and Freedom.

In the U.S., parallel experiments to the Dauphin one, aimed at measuring labour market reactions, were overseen in the 1970s, curiously, by Donald Rumsfeld, who headed Richard Nixon's poverty program, with his aide, Dick Cheney. But nothing was ever put into wide practice.

In Canada, ill-fated Progressive Conservative leader Robert Stanfield was a booster, as is former Tory Senator Hugh Segal, and parliamentary committees have recommended it various times, from 1971 to 2009.

A mincome is most associated with the modern left, though, as a way to eliminate the welfare trap. François Blais, for example, the Quebec MNA and former employment minister, wrote a book on it called Ending Poverty: A Basic Income for All Canadians.

In a 2011 report for the Conference Board of Canada, Glen Hodgson called it a big idea whose time has yet to arrive, and advocated it as an alternative to the mishmash of social programs, for "solid economic, fiscal and social reasons."

Federal Liberals have resolved to study it in a federal pilot project, and P.E.I.'s new premier has offered to host one.

But it is Alberta that has the momentum, and increasingly, the political will to bring a mincome to reality.

It is unlikely to be an easy task, though. There are dangers and criticisms for the idea, often articulated from the political right.

As The Economist magazine described it last month, in discussing a similar Swiss proposal, a "generous basic income funded by very high taxes would be self-defeating, as it would reintroduce the sort of distortions that many of its advocates hope to banish from the welfare system.

''Loafers could live comfortably without lifting a finger."

National Post

• Email: jbrean@nationalpost.com1 | Twitter: JosephBrean2
References

    jbrean@nationalpost.com
    twitter.com/josephbrean



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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2015, 05:58:03 AM »
Canada has always been more socialist than the U.S. My Canadian colleagues have always told me that their tax structure is set to make sure they never take home any more than 300K. Any more than that and the government just takes it all. (At least that was what I was told some years ago now, when I was hanging out with more Canadian dentists).

My most recent discussion with a Canadian dentist ( a few months back) was also revealing. He told me that fraud was running rampant, and that he was losing patients to unscrupulous competitors who were routinely scamming the National health Service. He told me that certain docs (perhaps those with political connections) seemed to be able to overcharge the system, submit false claims, etc., and suffer no consequences.



What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2015, 06:21:17 AM »
Canada has always been more socialist than the U.S. My Canadian colleagues have always told me that their tax structure is set to make sure they never take home any more than 300K. Any more than that and the government just takes it all. (At least that was what I was told some years ago now, when I was hanging out with more Canadian dentists).

My most recent discussion with a Canadian dentist ( a few months back) was also revealing. He told me that fraud was running rampant, and that he was losing patients to unscrupulous competitors who were routinely scamming the National health Service. He told me that certain docs (perhaps those with political connections) seemed to be able to overcharge the system, submit false claims, etc., and suffer no consequences.

Yes Eddie, no matter what you try and do, their are always those that do their utmost to cheat and beat the system. Depressing and nothing to do about it either, but try and change human nature, and we both know how well that would work.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2015, 08:10:09 AM »
K-Dog, I just read your posting after posting this.

Let me be clear, this idea of mine posted does nothing to solve the doomer problems we are all concerned with.

It is only floated as a specific idea for a specific problem in America. You are correct about the Levee sir.

Just trying to think of a way to help the millions that are caught up in all this and are trying to do the right thing to the best of their abilities, but are getting screwed and suffering.

I was harsh in my comment yesterday and truth be told I'm in favor of helping those down on their luck.  I just know that free money without strings is no answer and people left to their own devices come up with bizarre priorities.

We could fund a safety net by taxing capital gains as hard or harder than earned income. Take that revenue and put it into programs that could help the unemployed and those unable to work.  Taxes, unemployment insurance, minimum wage, social services; social democracy.  Social services properly funded and run could help a lot of people.  Perhaps taxes on those who are currently buying their way into US citizenship could help their new less affluent brothers and sisters who are down on their luck. 

The problem we have in America is that too many worship at the feet of the golden statue of the god of the free market.  My earlier comment was in error for reading it one could mistake me for being one of them.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 08:15:47 AM by K-Dog »
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2015, 08:52:40 AM »
Eddie ,
u should look up tax rates and scales for all other countries not just canada, u might never complain again. Also what can happen when a clinic deals directly with govt is the patient signs a triplicate form and on it is the provider number and a billing code. That code is just a number and means nothing to the patient,  so nothing stops a dishonest doctor writing in the equivalent of a number for new engine instead of new gasket,  or at least a longer consultation time.

RE, consider the merits of GOs proposal applied to your own situation. no uncertainty about getting social security or disability, just u stop work for any reason
at all includung being sacked or being unable, u go onto the 40k govt payment. This costs far less in removing all the people involved in getting paid to process and assess your claims but leaving u with less. The whole workers compensation industry with everyone involved in it evaporates.

With your own proposal it adds more beuracrats to come and measure your living space. If u live in a small apartment u win but if u live in a house u lose. If u try and rent out a room to make up for it, its illegal and requires more inspectors, more police, more jails.

The bulk of dwellings will be one bedroom. Marriage too risky to enter into, having family even worse  because if u seperate one person is stuck with extra living space that they cannot afford, children leave home, the same again.

GOs proposal also removes the main problem with welfare, being having a lot of children pays better than work. I have seen social worker who were clearing about 500 week approving emergency food vouchers that get spent at supermarkets for women getting about 900 week because of having 5 or 6 kids. In these cases a father or boyfriend always says he does not live together with her, because it costs her income if he works. In GOs proposal theres no beauracracy involved in extra payments for extra children. Adults get the same amount regardless of having ten or no children at all.

It is not a cost calculated on EVERY adult member of population because of many people having work ethic and wanting to be busy, as well as almost everyone who makes more than 40k continuing to do so unless they  dont want to. But most will continue doing what they do because they like having more  money, they will not work for next to nothing though. That means more profits of bigger companies do get more equally distributed to employees. The proposal is the only one that doesnt remove incentive to be financially successful and/or require quadrillions of dollars to buy all rental property, to turn into free govt housing.











« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 09:03:23 AM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2015, 08:53:32 AM »
Canada has always been more socialist than the U.S. My Canadian colleagues have always told me that their tax structure is set to make sure they never take home any more than 300K.

$300K Max?

Wow, they're really suffering.  ::)

RE
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Offline edpell

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2015, 09:09:38 AM »
Doing minimum income based on a temporary source of funds is as bad an idea as running all of human society on oil (which in 1895 John Astor was complaining about because it will run out). Take the surplus and purchase income producing properties Apple, GM, GE and use the dividends to pay out the minimum income. It is all about ownership of the means of production.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2015, 09:22:31 AM »
Doing minimum income based on a temporary source of funds is as bad an idea as running all of human society on oil (which in 1895 John Astor was complaining about because it will run out). Take the surplus and purchase income producing properties Apple, GM, GE and use the dividends to pay out the minimum income. It is all about ownership of the means of production.

Do u really want the next lot of samsung stuff u use to work like this?

The 'Trabi' Problem
The Significance of the Trabant to East German Culture, and to German Unification.
Top Ten ‘Trabi’ Jokes!
1. When does the Trabant reach its top speed? When it’s towed away.

2. Why is the Trabant the world’s quietest car to drive? Because your knees cover your ears.

3. Customer: “I’d like two windshield wipers for my Trabi.” Dealer: “Sounds like a fair trade to me!”

4. How do you double a Trabant’s value? Fill the tank with gas.

5. How do you measure the accelleration of a Trabant? With a calendar.

6. Why do Trabants have heated rear windows? To keep your hands warm while you push.

7. What do you call a Trabant with breaks? Customized.

8. What goes on pages 4 and 5 of the user’s manual? The bus schedule.

9. Why is a Trabant considered the longest car? There’s 8 feet of car, followed by 50 feet of smoke.

10. Why do East-Germans have trouble driving the Trabant? Because the wheel keeps pulling toward the west.


How about tax the hell out if the banks and stock market?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 09:26:38 AM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2015, 09:28:28 AM »
The bulk of dwellings will be one bedroom. Marriage too risky to enter into, having family even worse  because if u seperate one person is stuck with extra living space that they cannot afford. Children leave home, the same again.

You could resolve this problem with modular homes that can be disassembled and separated.  Get married, add a module.  Get divorced, remove a module.  Have a kid, add a module.  Kid goes to college, remove the module.  Modules can be on wheels, towed somewhere else and re-used for somebody else.

My solution has no bureaucracy.  Everybody gets their own 30' x 20' double wide modular living space with basic furniture like I have.  A bed, a desk and chair, a futon/couch, 4 folding chairs/tables for guests.  Everybody gets Food Stamps which will buy you 2000 calories/day of basic foods, rice, beans, animal protein of some type, fresh veggies, milk, juice are the only things the Food Stamps will buy.  No Potato Chips, no Frozen Foods, no High Fructose Corn Syrup Soft Drinks etc.  Everybody gets a laptop and cell phone for communications.  Everybody gets an Ewz for transportation, and buses and trains are set up so you can board with your Ewz. Public Transport also free.  Everybody gets enough daily electricity fed to their module to keep their Ewz, laptop and cell phone charged, keep the refrigerator cold and keep 2 diode lights running during nightime hours.

Everybody gets free basic Medical Care and Dentistry.  No complex operations like Heart Transplants for anybody.  If your ticker goes bad, you die.  If your kid is born with Spinal Bifida, it dies.

Everything else available in the society like going to movies, trips to Hawaii etc is on the Money Economy, you have to find some way to earn the credits necessary to buy the extra perks available.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2015, 09:36:47 AM »
Canada has always been more socialist than the U.S. My Canadian colleagues have always told me that their tax structure is set to make sure they never take home any more than 300K.

$300K Max?

Wow, they're really suffering.  ::)

RE

Compared it to some techie who invents a whatzit and takes a company public, pocketing tens of millions, it's a rather limiting business model.

You erroneously compare healthcare pros to wage earners, when in reality they are businessmen who execute a business plan, take risks, make payrolls, pay their own insurance and retirement, and do all the other things any other entrepreneur has to do.

 You have no idea how easy it is for a dentist to fail. It's always a fine line between success and failure, and there  are many circumstances beyond our control that we just have to deal with. There isn't that much difference in making 300K and being insolvent. The range of Zero to 300K take home pay is not that attractive, compared with a lot other business opportunities. It's small potatoes.

If college students really understood what they were getting into in terms of pursuing dentistry and/or medicine, they'd take the same money they spend on school and open a nice coffee shop or a bar or something.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2015, 09:40:32 AM »
Sounds good,  and i would include free education BUT WITH REAL STANDARDS to make it possible for anyone to achieve anything they can do.

Realistically though,  housing already exists in place and its not feasible except in new developments to replace all the houses and apartments. If its a complete new system i would eliminate money completely and make trying to use any token currency a crime.
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Offline g

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2015, 09:52:03 AM »
Sounds good,  and i would include free education BUT WITH REAL STANDARDS to make it possible for anyone to achieve anything they can do.

Realistically though,  housing already exists in place and its not feasible except in new developments to replace all the houses and apartments. If its a complete new system i would eliminate money completely and make trying to use any token currency a crime.

It won't work Uncle. Money is needed. People cannot all barter, they also have to save and invest, plan for emergencies, sickness etc. Money came about as a necessity, not from any edict of bad people. The banksters taking it over and turning it into a debt fiat system they control is what makes it evil. Going back to gold and silver money would purify it again.

Offline RE

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Re: $1000 per month gauranteed income
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2015, 10:17:41 AM »
Sounds good,  and i would include free education BUT WITH REAL STANDARDS to make it possible for anyone to achieve anything they can do.

Realistically though,  housing already exists in place and its not feasible except in new developments to replace all the houses and apartments. If its a complete new system i would eliminate money completely and make trying to use any token currency a crime.

Most of the current housing stock is unsustainable anyhow, and besides that typical houses don't last much more than 50 years. So you have  transitionary period in the conversion, but what you do right NOW is stop building 30,000 sq ft McMansions and start building 30'X20' modules.

For current housing stock, you take all the foreclosed on properties and divide them up for the Homeless to live in.  If it is a typical 3 bedroom suburban dwelling, 3 Homeless people are assigned to it.  The Homeless People can be matched up by Personality Testing, Religious Belief etc via a computerized database for compatibility.

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