AuthorTopic: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To  (Read 3544 times)

Offline Surly1

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 09:48:05 AM »
That socialism is not on the radar for the vast majority of Americans is best illustrated by imagining the size of the crowd you would have if you could take all the unemployed men in America who don't have two bits to their name but who yet insist on calling themselves Republican.  You would not be able to see across the crowd for it would stretch to the horizon.

Very true. Like Joe Bageant used to, I scratch my head on that one. It's got to be programming.



“Republican or Democrat, this nation's affluent urban and suburban classes understand their bread is buttered on the corporate side. The primary difference between the two parties is that the Republicans pretty much admit that they grasp and even endorse some of the nastiest facts of life in America. Republicans honestly tell the world: "Listen in on my phone calls, piss-test me until I'm blind, kill and eat all of my neighbors right in front of my eyes, but show me the money! Let me escape with every cent I can kick out of the suckers, the taxpayers, and anybody else I can get a headlock on, legally or otherwise." Democrats, in contrast, seem content to catalog the GOP's outrages against the Republic, showing proper indignation while laughing at episodes of The Daily Show. But they stand behind the American brand: imperialism. They "support our troops," though you will be hard put to find any of them who have served alongside them or who would send one of their own kids off to lose an eye or an arm in Iraq. They play the imperial game, maintain their credit ratings, and plan to keep the beach house and the retirement investments if it means sacrificing every damned Lynndie England in West Virginia.”


“Along with the concept of American Dream runs the notion that every man and woman is entitled to an opinion and to one vote, no matter how ridiculous that opinion might be or how uninformed the vote. It could be that the Borderer Presbyterian tradition of "stand up and say your rightful piece" contributed to the American notion that our gut-level but uninformed opinions are some sort of unvarnished foundational political truths. I have been told that this is because we redneck working-class Scots Irish suffer from what psychiatrists call "no insight".Consequently, we will never agree with anyone outside our zone of ignorance because our belligerent Borderer pride insists on the right to be dangerously wrong about everything while telling those who are more educated to "bite my ass!”

Can you believe they actually allow this stuff to be sold over there? Glad we got laws against that crap in this country." I remind him that the socialist party is probably the largest political party on the planet. "Aw bullshit!" he said. I asked, "Then what the hell do you think is the largest party?" "The Republican Party of course! We're the only country with real political parties." Now this is from a guy who has an MBA from one of the South's universities, holds local office, and has influenced public affairs.”


From: Deer Hunting With Jesus

God bless Joe Bageant wherever he is.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
--H. L. Mencken
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Online Eddie

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 10:54:38 AM »
Another cup of Joe:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vYaqEgyrh1M&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vYaqEgyrh1M&fs=1</a>

When somebody accuses me of "white privilege", they need to understand that Joe's people are my people. This clip's about my Southern heritage. No privilege where I come from.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Ka

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 02:38:55 PM »
K-Dog, Surly, Eddie, et al,

I am under no illusion that a GLS Party could make any waves in the current political scene. But I guess I'm to blame for that misapprehension, by calling it a "Party". So let me change that to proposing a GLS Program. By this I mean that, pre-collapse, the GLS Program is all about imagining a future polity run by the following rules:

- No action can be taken by anyone, public or private, that conflicts with the Ecological Rule, which is roughly that anything that causes serious damage to the biosphere is forbidden.

- The government is responsible for seeing that everyone in the polity has the minimum necessary for survival (the Socialist Rule).

- The government may place no restriction on anything the individual thinks or does, as long as such actions do not conflict with the Ecological or Socialist Rule, or interferes with the freedom of others (the Libertarian Rule).

Needless to say, spelling all this out for practical application is an enormous task, but as I see it, the alternative, post-collapse, is warlordism and continuing damage to the planet. So I guess I see the GLS Program as the only sort of hopium I have.

As I said to K-Dog, I don't expect the GLSP to come into effect through elections, nor through some secret revolutionary committee. Rather, I see the possibility that after the financial meltdown and martial law declared, when most all the populace has experienced a week of riots and being hungry, that IF the military and political leaders understand the situation (that the economy must decline) THEN they just might see the GLSP as a framework for keeping the nation together. After all, it is in their interest to do so.

Ok, there are enough if's here that it could well be that all I am doing is suggesting a plot for a naive wishful-thinking novel. But I can't think of anything better to do. The present system can't be reformed, and must be replaced. Trying to do so pre-collapse is impossible, so the idea is to work out something half-way decent to replace it with post-collapse.


Offline edpell

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 03:22:11 PM »
Gilad Atzmon talks about the importance of a people having an intellectual elite to lead them. Further without a competent leadership one ends up seeing the pathetic sight of the oppressed out in the streets waving stones and knives at the global machine with its cameras, computers, drones, soldiers, humvees, tanks, airplanes, napalm, rockets, snipers, torture camps, .... doomed to lose.   

Online Eddie

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 05:58:00 PM »
K-Dog, Surly, Eddie, et al,

I am under no illusion that a GLS Party could make any waves in the current political scene. But I guess I'm to blame for that misapprehension, by calling it a "Party". So let me change that to proposing a GLS Program. By this I mean that, pre-collapse, the GLS Program is all about imagining a future polity run by the following rules:

- No action can be taken by anyone, public or private, that conflicts with the Ecological Rule, which is roughly that anything that causes serious damage to the biosphere is forbidden.

- The government is responsible for seeing that everyone in the polity has the minimum necessary for survival (the Socialist Rule).

- The government may place no restriction on anything the individual thinks or does, as long as such actions do not conflict with the Ecological or Socialist Rule, or interferes with the freedom of others (the Libertarian Rule).

Needless to say, spelling all this out for practical application is an enormous task, but as I see it, the alternative, post-collapse, is warlordism and continuing damage to the planet. So I guess I see the GLS Program as the only sort of hopium I have.

As I said to K-Dog, I don't expect the GLSP to come into effect through elections, nor through some secret revolutionary committee. Rather, I see the possibility that after the financial meltdown and martial law declared, when most all the populace has experienced a week of riots and being hungry, that IF the military and political leaders understand the situation (that the economy must decline) THEN they just might see the GLSP as a framework for keeping the nation together. After all, it is in their interest to do so.

Ok, there are enough if's here that it could well be that all I am doing is suggesting a plot for a naive wishful-thinking novel. But I can't think of anything better to do. The present system can't be reformed, and must be replaced. Trying to do so pre-collapse is impossible, so the idea is to work out something half-way decent to replace it with post-collapse.

I'm fine with the principles of GLS. It's just the application that seems fairly impossible to achieve. Just as communism is, at the most basic theoretical level, a system aimed at fairness and justice, so is GLS. But as long as humans are running things, I see no path to get from where we are now, to the point at which these principles might be applied reasonably and equitably. My skeptical side says there would evolve some kind of corrupt politburo that would pervert the principles into something quite different than what you're intending.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline g

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 05:58:18 PM »
What, some like myself ask, Is so terrible and horrible about a declining population in a world of scarce resources?  :icon_scratch: :dontknow:
.


We are supposed to need economic growth in gdp, with steady inflation to pay for the debt supply.

That's what they tell us Uncle, but it's not so IMO.

Let's take the first fallacy. Has there been any growth in Japan the last few decades to pay off it's massive debt load? No.

Has their been inflation or deflation the last 30 years in Japan before this recent Abenomics experiment. Deflation of course.

Third largest economy in the world proves these conventional wisdoms are BS.

May I add do you see starvation in Japan?

Do you see crime?

How about mayhem, teotwaki?

What about lack of goods, medical care, shelter, or heat?

Also this idea of growth and inflation being wedded together as well is nonsense.

You can have inflation for decades without any growth, examples of Stagflation are numerous.

This constant growth, both Population Wise and Economy Wise being necessary and vital for our survival is just more bull shit we have been taught in IMO.

Especially when one realizes the resource depletion solid brick wall we are soon going to crash into. The quicker we get these notions out of our heads the better.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2015, 06:13:30 PM »
Also GO, the whole notion of gdp has never passed the smell test for me. Money in circulation including purely borrowed is obviously not the same as straight up income.

RE Japan, when i worked for the UN  in 99, i used to marvel at the amount of money spent and asked about it to the old timers. They said Japan had donated so many millions, today they talk in billions instead,  but it was good for japan because all the 4x4s and trucks and computers etc were made in japan. Well we can see now how that really worked out.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:16:41 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 08:32:31 PM »
K-Dog, Surly, Eddie, et al,

I am under no illusion that a GLS Party could make any waves in the current political scene. But I guess I'm to blame for that misapprehension, by calling it a "Party". So let me change that to proposing a GLS Program. By this I mean that, pre-collapse, the GLS Program is all about imagining a future polity run by the following rules:

- No action can be taken by anyone, public or private, that conflicts with the Ecological Rule, which is roughly that anything that causes serious damage to the biosphere is forbidden.

- The government is responsible for seeing that everyone in the polity has the minimum necessary for survival (the Socialist Rule).

- The government may place no restriction on anything the individual thinks or does, as long as such actions do not conflict with the Ecological or Socialist Rule, or interferes with the freedom of others (the Libertarian Rule).

Needless to say, spelling all this out for practical application is an enormous task, but as I see it, the alternative, post-collapse, is warlordism and continuing damage to the planet. So I guess I see the GLS Program as the only sort of hopium I have.

As I said to K-Dog, I don't expect the GLSP to come into effect through elections, nor through some secret revolutionary committee. Rather, I see the possibility that after the financial meltdown and martial law declared, when most all the populace has experienced a week of riots and being hungry, that IF the military and political leaders understand the situation (that the economy must decline) THEN they just might see the GLSP as a framework for keeping the nation together. After all, it is in their interest to do so.

Ok, there are enough if's here that it could well be that all I am doing is suggesting a plot for a naive wishful-thinking novel. But I can't think of anything better to do. The present system can't be reformed, and must be replaced. Trying to do so pre-collapse is impossible, so the idea is to work out something half-way decent to replace it with post-collapse.

I'm fine with the principles of GLS. It's just the application that seems fairly impossible to achieve. Just as communism is, at the most basic theoretical level, a system aimed at fairness and justice, so is GLS. But as long as humans are running things, I see no path to get from where we are now, to the point at which these principles might be applied reasonably and equitably. My skeptical side says there would evolve some kind of corrupt politburo that would pervert the principles into something quite different than what you're intending.

I agree with you but sometimes the sun has shown in a brief glorious summer before a new long winter of discontent.

He "was convinced that it was the most equal society he had known. Just as he saw the English miners as “genuine working men,” so he saw the Spanish militias as ‘genuine revolution- aries’, ‘microcosms of a classless society’. At the front he reckoned complete equality, or something not far from it, had been achieved. ‘Snobbishness, money grubbing, fear of the boss etc.’ had ceased; class prejudice had gone; comradeship was real and unaffected. Above all, he was struck by the ‘essential decency . . . straightforwardness and generosity’ of the Catalans."

'He' being G. Orwell, who also wrote:

“As soon as I knew that the bullet had gone clean through my neck I took it for granted that I was done for. I had never heard of a man or an animal getting a bullet through the middle of the neck and surviving it. The blood was dribbling out of the corner of my mouth. 'The artery's gone,' I thought. I wondered how long you last when your carotid artery is cut; not many minutes, presumably. Everything was very blurry. There must have been about two minutes during which I assumed that I was killed. And that too was interesting - I mean it is interesting to know what your thoughts would be at such a time. My first thought, conventionally enough, was for my wife. My second was a violent resentment at having to leave this world which, when all is said and done, suits me so well. I had time to feel very vividly. The stupid mischance infuriated me. The meaninglessness of it!”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia

But we don't have many Catalans among us and as you say the application seems fairly impossible to achieve.  It seems to be a real bitch and social experiments except for Cuba have been quickly put down.

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Ka

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Re: A Wealth Inequality Article I Can Relate To
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 12:39:03 AM »

I'm fine with the principles of GLS. It's just the application that seems fairly impossible to achieve. Just as communism is, at the most basic theoretical level, a system aimed at fairness and justice, so is GLS. But as long as humans are running things, I see no path to get from where we are now, to the point at which these principles might be applied reasonably and equitably. My skeptical side says there would evolve some kind of corrupt politburo that would pervert the principles into something quite different than what you're intending.

That's one of many issues to address. Some possibilities: disallow government officials from having any financial privacy. Put web cams in all government offices. Ombudsmen. And so on.

But even if nothing really works completely to prevent corruption, so what? The choice is a command economy, or no economy, that is, a failed state. All the GLS Program would be trying to do is add green and libertarian principles to a command economy base.

Also, we won't be going from here to there. We'll be going there, if at all, from a state of emergency.

 

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