AuthorTopic: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy  (Read 5774 times)

Offline RE

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The lowest common denominator in ethics and apathy winning is the logical conclusion every time.

Which is the same thing as the candidate most easily purchased by the Elite, which brings you back to the same conclusion, that the blame lies with the Elite, not with J6P.  Blaming the Victim is not the solution here.  Blaming the Perp and then meting out Punishment to Fit the Crime is the solution.  It will however have to wait until the playing field is levelled some though.

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Lousiana now REQUIRES HS Grads to apply for College Loans
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2015, 04:11:27 PM »
Surreal.  You can't get your HS Diploma if you don't apply for a College Loan in LA.  ::)

RE


The evolution of Fascism merges financial interests with government.  It is an inevitable consequence.



Private economic enterprise under centralized government control.

Someone had the idea of making sure all qualified HS graduates had access to loans.  They came up with the idea on their own or someone who is in the business of making student loans put them up to it.  They imagine they have good intentions but their attentions are amiss and instead they participate in the opening of Pandora’s box.  Public education is in the public realm but Americans have been brainwashed into thinking privatization is a good thing so this crossing of the line is noticed by few.





Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline RE

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Rome under the Antonines.  The Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of wisdom and virtue.  It was not perfect and Commodus shat on the goodness at the end but while it lasted mankind's happiest days were passed in the second century A.D under the rule of the good emperors.  The system failed when succession by merit was replaced by hereditary rule.

I don't think those were very Happy Days for the Slaves living under the Antonines, even though they were nicer to slaves than other Roman Emperors.

I think that period for Rome was a bit like "Pax Americana", the salad days everyone looks back on in the Post WWII years through the 60s, but as mentioned those weren't really so great either for many people, and who wrote the history books makes a big difference too.

I think the tribes of the Pacific Northwest prior to the invasion of the Europeans was pretty good, and they had a fairly large organization estimated at around 200K involved in their system of Potlach and their respect for their environment.  However, they made war on each other and took slaves too, so not perfect there either.

In all societies of all eras and all types of Goobermint, as long as you are on the side of the "Haves" in the society, it seems quite good.  The Haves also write the history books for their time period.  The Have Nots are relatively quiet in periods of plenty, when even a Have Not has enough food and decent shelter, they only get real upset when the basics disappear and they are the first ones to be triaged off the economy.

Anyhow, if I had a time & place in history to pick as the perfect one, it would not have been Rome under the Antonines, even if I was one of the Elite.  The perfect time for me would have been on that first cat rigged sailing canoe that made it to the Big Island of Hawaii, a millenia or so back in time now.


RE
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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I dont think many people are operating under the principle that theyre not interested in politics or will vote for whatever sounds good for their interest,  but are also waiting to punish the politicians. If theyre apathetic, ignorant and self interested they arent also harboring idealistic outrage on behalf of humanity. Any "elite" meeting with an angry mob is probably going to be random and opportunistic rather than targetted for purpose of justice, just 'Lets storm the guards at those gates and get some of what those rich fuckers have'. Whoever goes through bernankes fridge and wallet probably wont recognise the name or face on the cards in it.
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Offline K-Dog

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RE, None of those events disprove that we had a democracy.  There has never been a perfect government in known history.  The point I was making was that during that period we had a large middle class and that class had the ability to make choices much more conducive to a democracy due to their relative financial stability.  There isn't any obvious reason this has to be stripped from us we still are productive enough economically, its just the gains are concentrating to the corps and elites.  Which is quite a complex problem in itself but one we might have a chance of sorting out if we started really examining it.

We only had a large middle class because there was plenty of cheap energy available and because it was beneficial to the Elite for the build out phase of the system.  Said middle class never had any power regardless of the Window Dressing "democracy" they and their children were sold on through the media and the education system.  Most young people think there was democracy back when there was a large middle class.  This is a canard, one apparently you buy into.

RE

America went into WWII in a depression.  The war created economic conditions which got everyone working and the economy provided prosperity to all as a result of the imposed economy of wartime production.  A working economy is better than none.  There is no mystery here.

When the war ended a consumer economy was immediately implemented to maintain prosperity and growth.  The war had been good to big business and now the consumer economy would do the same.  It shot the wad as far as future survival goes but it was good while it lasted.  Nobody wanted to return to the depression so sacrificing future generations was no big deal.

Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline RE

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When the war ended a consumer economy was immediately implemented to maintain prosperity and growth.  The war had been good to big business and now the consumer economy would do the same.  It shot the wad as far as future survival goes but it was good while it lasted.  Nobody wanted to return to the depression so sacrificing future generations was no big deal.

Yah, the conversion to the Consumer Economy post-WWII was quite seamless and interesting.

The factories that had been producing Tanks were converted over to producing mass market Carz.  The chemical plants that had been producing Ammonium Nitrate for Bombs were converted to producing Fertilizer that produced the "Green Revolution" in Ag.  Gobs of new debt was issued to build the Eisenhower Interstate and rebuild Europe under the Marshall Plan.  MENA was divied up under Puppet Regimes put in place by the Elite to supply Energy for this build out.  J6P never had any say in any of this, and it is sheer mythology there was ever "Democracy" at work here at any time, either before WWII, during WWII or after WWII.  The media sold everyone in the 1st world that Technology would raise everyone up and we would go Trekking the Starz.  Just about every child who grew up from 1950 onward bought this line of bullshit, but meanwhile in the 3rd world they were being systematically raped and impoverished to make the Illusion seem real here.

Sadly, the vast majority of people in both the 1st & 3rd world still buy this line of bullshit.

RE
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 04:56:55 PM by RE »
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Offline K-Dog

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The Have Nots are relatively quiet in periods of plenty, when even a Have Not has enough food and decent shelter, they only get real upset when the basics disappear and they are the first ones to be triaged off the economy.

Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.  Everyone was participating in their own personal prosperity and their were apparently few complaints.  Consequently the Antonine people produced little history to tell what they were doing with their prosperity and time.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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There has never been a perfect government in known history.



Rome under the Antonines.  The Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of wisdom and virtue.  It was not perfect and Commodus shat on the goodness at the end but while it lasted mankind's happiest days were passed in the second century A.D under the rule of the good emperors.  The system failed when succession by merit was replaced by hereditary rule.

Thats roamers quote not mine,  but i agree wirh both of u. The golden age of King Janaka in India or the legendary Camelot Age of King Arthur and the Knights of the ROUND TABLE are other examples. These were not democracies though. The original democracy was where every citizen was effectively a senator who could argue,  debate,  or listen and then vote. Not everyone was a citizen with those rights though,  others were doing the work enabling the citizens to have time to hang around the debates that decided actions.

Being a citizen was a serious responsibility, and if it had been extended to everyone then would have hastened the lowest common denominator eventual outcome. That would have improved the lot of the non citizens some but only until the same endgame as we see today.

Thats a far cry from what we call democracy today, where politicians can make promises but do not have to follow through with them and can also do any number of things that was never part of the election platform, whole secret agendas introduced as bills after elections. That is if anybody even bothets to look into what policies were proposed other than what they might notice on an advert.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 05:04:36 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline K-Dog

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Yah, the conversion to the Consumer Economy post-WWII was quite seamless and interesting.

The factories that had been producing Tanks were converted over to producing mass market Carz.  The chemical plants that had been producing Ammonium Nitrate for Bombs were converted to producing Fertilizer that produced the "Green Revolution" in Ag.  Gobs of new debt was issued to build the Eisenhower Interstate and rebuild Europe under the Marshall Plan.  MENA was divied up under Puppet Regimes put in place by the Elite to supply Energy for this build out.  J6P never had any say in any of this, and it is sheer mythology there was ever "Democracy" at work here at any time, either before WWII, during WWII or after WWII.  The media sold everyone in the 1st world that Technology would raise everyone up and we would go Trekking the Starz.  Just about every child who grew up from 1950 onward bought this line of bullshit, but meanwhile in the 3rd world they were being systematically raped and impoverished to make the Illusion seem real here.

Sadly, the vast majority of people in both the 1st & 3rd world still buy this line of bullshit.

RE

They would buy the bullshit and eat it up not understanding that their lifeblood was being sucked from them by their silent vampire overlords.  Love it or leave it with no place to go.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 05:12:59 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline g

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Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

Offline g

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Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

A further quick net inquiry led me to this site where a view more to my understanding is presented.

               

The age of the Antonine dynasty has been described as that period of the Roman empire which enjoyed the greatest happiness. The Antonines' policy of avoiding war, determined the Roman empire's historical development to such a degree, that the name 'Antonine' became synonymous with prosperity, as we can see from the 'Panegyric on Rome', delivered by Aelius Aristides in AD 143/4.

It was a time when more and more Roman provincial citizens were rising to equestrian or even senatorial rank, and gradually acquiring more and more access to the Roman administration. Indeed, the second emperor of the Antonine dynasty, Trajan, was the first occupant of the Roman throne to come from a province (Baetica).

The Antonines showed a particular interest in Hellenic culture. Under their rule, art produced some of its finest examples, while the rise of the Second Sophistic movement serviced diplomatic relations between Hellenic cities and the Roman administration. It was a sign of the times and their trend towards the intellectual that Marcus Aurelius became involved with the Stoic, Platonic and Epicurean philosophies; his policy being so much coloured by them that he has gone down in history as 'the philosopher emperor'.

The reasons for this happy state of affairs are complex. The annexation of neighbouring client kingdoms during the first century AD meant that there was a general peace and stability. Provincial administration became more consistent and more effective. Commercial contact was facilitated, and economic well-being promoted by stationing armed units along key commercial routes. An unprecedented population increase was also registered, chiefly in urban centres. An explosion of building in the cities, vigorous intellectual life, flourishing aristic activity, movements in philosophy: all these accurately reflect the universal prosperity. Meanwhile, on the social level a new cultural identity was just beginning to make itself felt -that of the Greek-speaking Roman citizen.

Only when Marcus Aurelius died did the first clouds begin to gather, mainly on the north-west and eastern horizons of the Empire, which were to threaten the existence of this infinitely desirable peace. The person who was called upon to go on campaign and face these problems was the new emperor, Lucius Verus.

http://www.ime.gr/chronos/07/en/politics/index33.html :icon_study:

                                                         
                                                                                                  Trajan's Forum

This forum was built on the order of the emperor Trajan with the spoils of war from the conquest of Dacia, which ended in 106.[1] The Fasti Ostienses state that the Forum was inaugurated in 112, while Trajan's Column was erected and then inaugurated in 113.

To build this monumental complex, extensive excavations were required: workers eliminated the sides of the Quirinal and Capitoline (Campidoglio) Hills, which closed the valley occupied by the Imperial forums toward the Campus Martius.

It is possible that the excavations were initiated under Emperor Domitian, while the project of the Forum was completely attributed to the architect Apollodorus of Damascus,[1] who also accompanied Emperor Trajan in the Dacian campaign.

During the time of the construction, several other projects took place: the construction of the Markets of Trajan,[1] and the renovation of the Caesar's Forum (where the Basilica Argentaria was built) and the Temple of Venus Genetrix.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Forum  :icon_study:

Offline K-Dog

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Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

I tried to find an eloquent passage in 'The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire' which I know is there which describes the situation but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps necessity being the mother of invention (and creative works as well) was asleep in that age of peace and plenty. 

Being relatively fat and happy Romans of that time had no need of a George Carlonius and already existing Greek art and literature satisfied their needs like golden oldies radio stations do for us now without a war to protest. 

Consider that our own art and literature is totally market driven and that the only contribution to it by J6P now is the decision to select which page from an artists book one chooses a tattoo from.  Another form of consumer choice and consumer choice is the only freedom allowed J6P.  Consumerism defines American freedom and to Americans they are one and the same.

Humans are creative and inventive creatures but need stimulates inventive activity and without need to press it forward human creativity atrophies and concerns itself with the trivial.  Had they a consumer economy fashion might have been in constant flux being for them as it is for us now, money driven.  Perhaps a rise and fall of toga hems which would reflect an analogous concentration on trivia is simply not preserved in the historical record.  Yet without mass production new fashion could not have generated the acquisition of new copper and silver coin.  Like art of the times fashion may have atrophied because it is dependent on economic reward.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 01:51:22 AM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline g

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Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

I tried to find an eloquent passage in 'The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire' which I know is there which describes the situation but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps necessity being the mother of invention (and creative works as well) was asleep in that age of peace and plenty. 

Being relatively fat and happy Romans of that time had no need of a George Carlonius and already existing Greek art and literature satisfied their needs like golden oldies radio stations do for us now without a war to protest. 

Consider that our own art and literature is totally market driven and that the only contribution to it by J6P now is the decision to select which page from an artists book one chooses a tattoo from.  Another form of consumer choice and consumer choice is the only freedom allowed J6P.  Consumerism defines American freedom and to Americans they are one and the same.

Humans are creative and inventive creatures but need stimulates inventive activity and without need to press it forward human creativity atrophies and concerns itself with the trivial.  Had they a consumer economy fashion might have been in constant flux being for them as it is for us now, money driven.  Perhaps a rise and fall of toga hems which would reflect an analogous concentration on trivia is simply not preserved in the historical record.  Yet without mass production new fashion could not have generated the acquisition of new copper and silver coin.  Like art of the times fashion may have atrophied because it is dependent on economic reward.

I get it K-Dog. Masterful explanation.

An abundance of mediocrity it would appear to an Eye in the Sky.

The topic you presented has brought ancient Rome back to my net travels last night and this morning. How interesting, Thanks

                           
                                                 

 

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