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Offline RE

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Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« on: April 30, 2016, 05:19:09 PM »
I have been doing further work on my Gravestone, which I have now designed to last PAST the SUN☼ going Red Giant!  :icon_sunny:

Which means when it is eventually found by Alien Archaeologists & Historians of the Universe doing Excavations on the burned out cinder of a planet circling a White Dwarf star it can be examined and researched.  Hopefully during the 1B or so years the SUN☼ is a Red Giant, it will be buried deep enough so the Granite won't melt.  :(  Where the Earth is may experience temps as hot as 3000C at the surface during Red Giant phase, and Granite melts at around 1900C.  At least I think I am in the ballpark there anyhow.

However, it occured to me that if I have CARVED IN STONE on the marker when I lived and died in the normal fashion...

RE
Born: August 31, 1957
Died: ??????,  20 ??????

...the Aliens would have NO CLUE as to what that means, even if they have figured out the language.  I need something Universal that Alien historians who travel through Interstellar Space doing Archaeological Digs would recognize.  :icon_scratch:

Fortunately, for any given date and time in the history of the Universe, the stars visible from Earth and the other planets which circle the SUN☼ all have specific positions where they were at the time of your birth, and even better there are some Freeware programs which allow you to generate the picture of that.  They are OLD programs which I had on my old WinXP computer and I wasn't sure they would run on Win10, but they in fact do!  :o

For the first one I generated the pic of the Night Sky over NY Shity on the day and approximate time I was born.

RE bday stars
RE bday stars

The second one shows the positions of the Moons of Jupiter when I was born into the 3D Corporeal World.

RE bday jup
RE bday jup

If you would like to see where the Stars were and the Moons of Jupiter, you can download these 2 freeware programs:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/homeplanet/
http://indigo.ie/~gnugent/JupSat95/

They are zip files you need to unpack and install the old fashioned way, but they both work fine!

If you don't want to bother, just send me your Birthdate, Time & Location and I will put them up here in the Diner thread of Birthdays.  :icon_sunny:

For my Gravestone, I am going to simplify the Star Chart to just include the main constellations with the brightest stars.  I will make it a habit each morning I wake up to generate the charts for that day, just in case I unexpectedly die that day.  I'll delete the previous day's charts so it is always up to date.  When my corpse is found, the executors of my will can pull the charts off my laptop for engraving on the Gravestone.

I still haven't figured out all the rest of the text to go on the marker yet, and I'm still engineering it's functions as a Solstice calculator and Sundial.  It's getting pretty cool though!  :icon_sunny:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-9yYJ6ZAYns" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/-9yYJ6ZAYns</a>

SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE

RE
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Offline RE

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Diner Star Date: 05.01.2016
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2016, 12:51:11 PM »
05 01 2016 11 11 11
05 01 2016 11 11 11
05 01 2016 11 11 11 star
05 01 2016 11 11 11 star

RE
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Offline Palloy

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2016, 10:42:49 PM »
Quote
I need something Universal that Alien historians who travel through Interstellar Space doing Archaeological Digs would recognize.

I expect that the aliens would recognise you were trying to convey a date and time, but I doubt that they would have the planetary data to work backwards in time with any accuracy.  The picture itself would be more accurate if it was larger - more pixels = more accuracy.  But it would be altogether more accurate to give the Altitude and Azimuth from a location to planets and stars.  Specifying a location would itself be tricky, the Line of Longitude through Greenwich being entirely arbitrary.

I think it would be simpler to spend some time defining a Universal Language and then defining the vocabulary of calendars, and then simply giving the date and time relative to some significant cosmological event.  Since mathematics/numbers/units are unavoidable, it would be best to create a mathematical framework first, and since binary is the most obvious number base, we will use binary.

11111111
00000000
00000001
00000010
00000011
00000100
00000101
...
01111111
11111111

That message shows any stupid alien that we can count from 0 to 127 in binary, that were are grouping 8 bits to the byte, and that 11111111 is the start/stop byte.  It also begs the question of what we are using the first bit on a row for - something different presumably.

11111111
00000001
10000000
00000001
11111111

11111111
00000010
10000000
00000010
11111111

Probably a few more examples wouldn't hurt, but the intuitive will have guessed that this is saying "1?1" "2?2", so 10000000 represents Equality (=).

11111111
00000001
10000001
00000001
10000000
00000010
11111111

11111111
00000001
10000001
00000010
10000000
00000011
11111111

That's "1?1=2", "1?2=3" thus defining 10000001 as Addition (+).

Similarly we can define Subtraction (-), Multiplication (), Division (), Squared (), Cubed (), SquareRoot (⎷), GreaterThan (>), LessThan (<).

Then NOT (!), Nested (( )), Sine, Cosine, Tangent, Exponential, Logarithm, Modulus.
I can see all the aliens nodding excitedly and starting to program their iPads to use their own weird symbols.
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Offline RE

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2016, 11:35:40 PM »
Since mathematics/numbers/units are unavoidable, it would be best to create a mathematical framework first, and since binary is the most obvious number base, we will use binary.

Binary is definitely the way to go in terms of basic numerical communication, and I will include a Binary Codex of some type, but probably not on the exterior CARVED IN STONE, because it would just take up too much of the canvas Real Estate, even given making the thing pretty huge.  I don't figure to make it 100 meters in Diameter, although that would be nice.  :icon_sunny:  I figure I am working with a Tombstone about 1-2 meters in diameter, which is already quite large by Tombstone standards.

Far as defining what Location on the Earth to use as a Reference Point, that is pretty EZ.  The Reference Point is where the Tombstone is located.  Everything in the Universe is Referenced from the point in 3D space where the RE Tombstone is located.  :icon_sunny:


I can symbolize this by putting an Icon for the Tombstone at the Center of all the Circles which define dates and times astronomically.

My feeling is that any Aliens capable of Interstellar Travel would be able to take the motions of the planets, their satellites and the stars from the reference point and be able to work it backwards in time, as long as these motions are constant.  The SUN☼ going Red Giant and/or a Collision with Planet X of course is a Discontinuity here that could make their calculations difficult.  Obviously, if Mercury and Mars are Vaporized when the SUN☼ goes Red Giant, even if a cinder of the Earth is left, it's orbit will likely change.  However, they should have in their Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy a reference for when the SUN☼ went Red Giant and be able to backtrack the calculations from that.

The problem of having sufficient resolution on the Astronomical Charts that are CARVED IN STONE is pretty much insurmountable.  You would have to drill 100s (1000s?) of tiny holes in the stone perfectly aligned to get anything close to an exact dating.  I'm thinking using the Moons of Jupiter is better here, just 4 of them to drill in.  They would have to be absolutely perfect in distance measurements from Jupiter though, and I'm not sure how often those positions repeat themselves relative to one another.  Some combination of these two methods might work though, a simplified Star Chart to Ballpark it within a Millenia, and then Jupiter's Moons to nail it down to the exact month and year.  Getting it down to minutes and seconds is probably out of the question, even for Aliens with Super-Duper Super Computers.

The Gross 3-D Geometry of the Tombstone should be enough to immediately let the Alien Archaeologists know that at one time on the Burned out Cinder of the Earth there were Sentient Creatures who understood Mathematics, which would pique their interest in further researching the Stones.  So they would be careful in the Excavation.  The Diagrams on the faces of the stones would further reinforce that this bunch of creatures understood mathematics, without any numbers yet involved. 3D Geometry should be recognizable to all sentient creatures, assuming sentient Aliens can recognize this if my hypothesis that this is Universal to all creatures living in the 3D world is correct.

For further information, they will need to get inside the Stones to retrieve the Micro-Computers and Memory Chips encased in the Faraday Cages, and then Power them up after Billions of Years sequestered inside the stones.  Whether they will still work at that point is an open question.  Probably not, but Alien Restoration Experts with experience at repairing ancient semiconductors might be able to pull off some information.

RE
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 01:43:40 AM by RE »
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Offline Palloy

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 01:50:01 AM »
Quote
as long as these motions are constant.

Constant they are NOT.  Every planetary orbit is influenced by every other orbit, and by impacts with debris.  The whole volume of the solar disc has been swept fairly clean of debris by planets' gravity fields, right out to the Kuiper Belt.  Observations from Earth need to take axial precession into account, and the precession's period is not known accurately enough to be worked backwards for more than one period (approximately 25,771.57534 years).  For Mercury, relativistic mechanics needs to be taken in account too.

Newton set up the 3 body problem in 1687, and it took 200 years before it was proved that there was no solution to it.  Imagine how much more unsolvable the n-body problem is, without making approximations that limit the accuracy over large timescales.
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Offline RE

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 02:00:57 AM »
Quote
as long as these motions are constant.

Constant they are NOT.  Every planetary orbit is influenced by every other orbit, and by impacts with debris.  The whole volume of the solar disc has been swept fairly clean of debris by planets' gravity fields, right out to the Kuiper Belt.  Observations from Earth need to take axial precession into account, and the precession's period is not known accurately enough to be worked backwards for more than one period (approximately 25,771.57534 years).  For Mercury, relativistic mechanics needs to be taken in account too.

Newton set up the 3 body problem in 1687, and it took 200 years before it was proved that there was no solution to it.  Imagine how much more unsolvable the n-body problem is, without making approximations that limit the accuracy over large timescales.

That is a problem.  :(

Also a problem is it is doubtful the stone can last through Red Giant phase, and NO WAY the interior Semiconductors will last through that.  Even Buried, the temps inside will fry the semicondonductors.

So for all the information to be recovered, the Alien Archaeologists have to arrive in under around 1B years or so before the SUN☼ goes Red Giant.

So the existence of this Information in the corporeal universe is probably limited to around 25,000 years if you include the precession period noted by PY.

On the Upside, that is a LOT longer than the <100 Years I will actually be alive this go round.  :icon_sunny:

RE
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Offline RE

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Diner Jupiter Date: 05.02.2016
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2016, 04:18:18 AM »
05 02 16 gif
05 02 16 gif

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Offline RE

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Diner Star Date: 05.04.16
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 06:46:16 PM »
Animated this time!   :icon_sunny:  Sped up obviously.  Click the image to see the animation.

05 04 2016 17 30 00 gif
05 04 2016 17 30 00 gif

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Offline RE

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 01:17:23 AM »
Since mathematics/numbers/units are unavoidable, it would be best to create a mathematical framework first, and since binary is the most obvious number base, we will use binary.

Binary is definitely the way to go in terms of basic numerical communication, and I will include a Binary Codex of some type, but probably not on the exterior CARVED IN STONE, because it would just take up too much of the canvas Real Estate, even given making the thing pretty huge.  I don't figure to make it 100 meters in Diameter, although that would be nice.  :icon_sunny:  I figure I am working with a Tombstone about 1-2 meters in diameter, which is already quite large by Tombstone standards.

Far as defining what Location on the Earth to use as a Reference Point, that is pretty EZ.  The Reference Point is where the Tombstone is located.  Everything in the Universe is Referenced from the point in 3D space where the RE Tombstone is located.  :icon_sunny:


I can symbolize this by putting an Icon for the Tombstone at the Center of all the Circles which define dates and times astronomically.

My feeling is that any Aliens capable of Interstellar Travel would be able to take the motions of the planets, their satellites and the stars from the reference point and be able to work it backwards in time, as long as these motions are constant.  The SUN☼ going Red Giant and/or a Collision with Planet X of course is a Discontinuity here that could make their calculations difficult.  Obviously, if Mercury and Mars are Vaporized when the SUN☼ goes Red Giant, even if a cinder of the Earth is left, it's orbit will likely change.  However, they should have in their Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy a reference for when the SUN☼ went Red Giant and be able to backtrack the calculations from that.

The problem of having sufficient resolution on the Astronomical Charts that are CARVED IN STONE is pretty much insurmountable.  You would have to drill 100s (1000s?) of tiny holes in the stone perfectly aligned to get anything close to an exact dating.  I'm thinking using the Moons of Jupiter is better here, just 4 of them to drill in.  They would have to be absolutely perfect in distance measurements from Jupiter though, and I'm not sure how often those positions repeat themselves relative to one another.  Some combination of these two methods might work though, a simplified Star Chart to Ballpark it within a Millenia, and then Jupiter's Moons to nail it down to the exact month and year.  Getting it down to minutes and seconds is probably out of the question, even for Aliens with Super-Duper Super Computers.

The Gross 3-D Geometry of the Tombstone should be enough to immediately let the Alien Archa
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Offline Palloy

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Re: Where were the Stars when you were Born?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 01:53:34 AM »
I think you've got longer than a billion years before the Sun goes Red Giant - maybe 5 billion years.  Trying to make anything last that long would be a tricky problem - even continents don't last that long.  The oldest buildings in the world are less than 7,000 years old.
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