AuthorTopic: Unnecessariat  (Read 10239 times)

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2016, 02:17:43 PM »
Another good one for the blog list. Enjoyed that.

It was reasonable. But the flavor of people who can "be all they can be" as though the they shouldn't suffer the consequences of poor lifestyle decisions, such as doping themselves into oblivion, is someone else's fault. Too close to the victim angle for my comfort.

Detailed economic and demographic studies consistently show that there is virtually no mobility between social class in America.  One difference is that poor lifestyle decisions by the affluent slide off them like they were coated with Teflon.  Poor lifestyle choices by the dispossessed carry serious consequences in contrast.  Life is not fair but the idea that I made it so what the fuck is wrong with you if you can't assumes life is fair.  It is delusional thinking.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2016, 03:35:02 PM »
KDog my oldest daughter is 20 next month and still hasnt passed her driving test, my grandfather didnt like giving up driving when he was about 80, RE had to steer with his teeth when his arm wouldnt move and every single day people texting in traffic rear end each other and cause millions of engines to run for hours spewing smoke not moving.

Your said people in self drive cars dont care about people in crapheaps. There is no proof of that, but a ton of evidence you do not care about those who need a self drive car if they want the same mobility as you. Also, your own carbon footprint is much more when youre stuck in gridlock from all the rush hour accidents caused by iphone addicts.



« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 03:39:32 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2016, 04:04:52 PM »
  I am amazed that people can actually think self driving cars will improve quality of life.

Catching up on the latest science articles while the car drives me down the interstate for hours on end? Absolutely. Commuting to work except not having to drive, reading the morning paper, catching up on the evenings emails, getting CREDIT for the time? Absolutely.

Quote from: K-Dog
Totally self driving cars are different and they will kill a lot of people before the bugs are worked out. 

What is the death toll on the Google experiments at self driving cars so far? Must be in the hundreds, considering the miles they've racked up. THOUSANDS maybe even?
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2016, 04:10:13 PM »

It was reasonable. But the flavor of people who can "be all they can be" as though the they shouldn't suffer the consequences of poor lifestyle decisions, such as doping themselves into oblivion, is someone else's fault. Too close to the victim angle for my comfort.

Detailed economic and demographic studies consistently show that there is virtually no mobility between social class in America.  One difference is that poor lifestyle decisions by the affluent slide off them like they were coated with Teflon.  Poor lifestyle choices by the dispossessed carry serious consequences in contrast.  Life is not fair but the idea that I made it so what the fuck is wrong with you if you can't assumes life is fair.  It is delusional thinking.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Dan gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.
With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Dan gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Dan's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.In the morning shower, Dan reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Dan dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.
He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Dan begins his workday. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards.

Dan's employer pays these standards because Dan's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Dan is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noontime and Dan needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Dan's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Dan's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Dan has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Dan and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Dan is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Dan wouldn't have to.

Dan gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Dan enjoys throughout his day. Dan agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2016, 04:11:53 PM »
After some consideration I have to say this on the original post:

I come from a background not too different from the trailer trash people the author was lamenting about, and I can't help but see the other side.

Amen to that. I can name names. Entire family lines. Who I visit on Thanksgiving for crying out loud. But bringing yourself out of such a place garners you credit here Eddie. Success alone is proof of your wrong doing.

Quote from: Eddie
People who live their lives with very low self-expectations, depend on the world to give them a job with a living wage when they never made much effort to prepare for one...people who dropped out of high school, got pregnant or got somebody pregnant when they didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of....who went down the short road to alcohol and drug abuse....this was supposed to take them where? To the good life?

Not quite...the ones I grew up with, lived with, visit on occasion, usually wish to be relieved of the consequences of their decisions. Becoming dopers just one of those consequences.

Quote from: Eddie
Americans expect to just fall off the turnip truck and have everything work out. I would point out, that if this were ever true, it sure isn't anymore.

Americans expect the anomalies..like you...to give and give and give until they are saved. Or are given everything YOU earned. It not being fair that you have such a capability, and they do not.
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 04:44:59 PM »
This is a common sentiment amongst those who "made it good" in the old economy, and it is something you and Moriarty have in common, besides the obvious difference that you have a conscience and moral center and he does not.

Of course I do. Laid down over years of striving and forging against the current. It is remarkable that you cannot see the obvious sometimes. And I know folks who have done well in the new economy as well, although they are perhaps fewer in number nowadays, if only because they don't have parents to give them the bedrock principles upon which my life has been built.

Quote from: RE
The thing here is, that even in the best of times, you really had to be in the top 10% if not 1% in terms of brainpower to be able to negotiate this system and drag your ass out of poverty.  What percentage of the population could possibly have Become World Class Dentistas like you or World Class Criminals like Moriarty? Obviously, only a few especially since there were only so many spots available for training in such professions anyhow.

Training is one thing. Delivering results in meatspace afterwards is something else altogether.

Quote from: RE
So that means ever since the 1970s, there have been ~90% of the population left off the Gravy Train, people who spent their entire lives living paycheck to paycheck.  Today, I suspect that percentage is closer to 99%.

Well, if you must have an iphone and the data plan that comes with it, and you spend your paycheck until there no extra left, of COURSE you live paycheck to paycheck. Living within a budget is another one of those skills that seems to have become extinct, along with the self control of not buying everything in sight, taught to them by the boomers of this country.

Quote from: RE
Does the fact that 50% of people are below median intelligence mean they deserve to live in poverty while the 16% of the the population 2 standard deviations above the mean gets to live in luxury on the back of their labor?

They don't do it on the back of anyone. They do by making labor more effective. We are force multipliers, those of us in charge of things. We are in charge because we know how to take a given group of people, and deliver more product than other people, with the same group.

Quote from: RE
Are not all men created equal?  Is that not in the constitution?  Why should being born smart make you "More Equal" than others, and more deserving of big houses, expensive carz and so forth?

Because all men are not created equal, otherwise that distribution you go on about wouldn't exist. And even between two people of equal talent there are the consequences of one of them being lazy, and a whiner, scared of sweat, terrified of making decisions and being held accountable. Which of those two equals will do better in meat space, do you think?

Quote from: RE
  Smart people taking advantage of stupid people is like big strong men beating up on little children.

RE

That is not it at all. The distribution you speak of, it is as natural as the rest of the world we live in, even if you pretend it doesn't exist.

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 04:47:56 PM »
Self driving cars illustrate that humans have great difficulty differentiating between needs and wants.  There is no need for self driving cars, it is only a want.

Define your "need" for any car. If you can do that, then I can do the same for a self driving one.
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 04:56:06 PM »
Another good one for the blog list. Enjoyed that.

It was reasonable. But the flavor of people who can "be all they can be" as though the they shouldn't suffer the consequences of poor lifestyle decisions, such as doping themselves into oblivion, is someone else's fault. Too close to the victim angle for my comfort.

Detailed economic and demographic studies consistently show that there is virtually no mobility between social class in America.

Really? Can you reference at least one we can discuss? It is quite an all inclusive statement, "virtually no". And making such a claim will depend heavily on what you are calling a "social" class.

When I was young, none of us had cars because we couldn't afford them. All of the folks I grew up with moved into the social class of people owning cars, which is a pretty big difference in class movement.

Quote from: K-Dog
One difference is that poor lifestyle decisions by the affluent slide off them like they were coated with Teflon.

Oh, I don't think so.

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/world/10-millionaires-behind-bars/?view=all

And my favorite.

http://gawker.com/drunk-driving-teen-with-affluenza-may-not-be-affluent-1485105580

Quote from: K-Dog
Poor lifestyle choices by the dispossessed carry serious consequences in contrast.

Poor lifestyle choices carry consequences for everyone, including the rich folks on the list referenced above. Those consequences vary for all sorts of reasons.


Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline RE

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 05:19:25 PM »
Another good one for the blog list. Enjoyed that.

It was reasonable. But the flavor of people who can "be all they can be" as though the they shouldn't suffer the consequences of poor lifestyle decisions, such as doping themselves into oblivion, is someone else's fault. Too close to the victim angle for my comfort.

Detailed economic and demographic studies consistently show that there is virtually no mobility between social class in America.  One difference is that poor lifestyle decisions by the affluent slide off them like they were coated with Teflon.  Poor lifestyle choices by the dispossessed carry serious consequences in contrast.  Life is not fair but the idea that I made it so what the fuck is wrong with you if you can't assumes life is fair.  It is delusional thinking.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Attributing their own success in making money to their own attributes of intelligence, hard work and good lifestyle choices is very common amongst the nouveau riche who bootstrapped out of poverty.  Conversely, they blame all the problems the people they left behind have on their own sutpidity, laziness & poor lifestyle choices.  This makes logical sense to the noveau riche.

What they are doing here is confusing cause and effect.  They generally aren't poor because they are stupid lazy drug addicts, they are stupid lazy drug addicts because they are poor.  A fraction of a fraction of a percent of social climbers manage to get out of this cycle, and then they take on a holier-than-thou attitude blaming the victims. "Everybody can do this!  Lookie Me! I Did it!".  This is obviously complete horseshit by every statistical measure there is.

First off, there isn't even room at the top of the heap of the ponzi, by definition here only 1% can be in the 1% of high wage earners.  So 99% of people are going to be left out of that sliver of the society whether they are smart or stupid, industrious or lazy, a tea-totaller or alcoholic.  None of those choices make a damn bit of difference because there simply is not room at the top for everyone to make $250K or more every year as a rough nominal number for the 1% right now.

For a while here in the FSoA, the folks within 2 standard deviations of the mean could live OK on a more reasonable income of $50K or so.  If you were frugal you could even make do on $30K.  Alcohol & Drug Addiction and Suicide Rates were low in this group of people 10-20 years ago.  Today, this class of people is being eviscerated.  Not only is $50K not sufficient to buy housing inflated into the stratosphere by the FIRE economy, they are losing their $50K jobs to be replaced by $20K min wage jobs, if they are even fortunate to be able to get one of those.  So they are couch surfing, living in their cars and descending into drug addiction and committing suicide by the truckload.  Their drug addictions are not the cause of their poverty, their poverty is the cause of the drug addiction.  It blots out the pain temporarily, and suicide blots it out permanently.  Eternal Peace, as it were.

Noveau Riche social climbers are generally unable to understand or empathize with this problem. Empathy Deficit Disorder as it were. The foundation of their belief system is that anyone who is smart & industrious and clean living can bootstrap out of poverty like they did.  It justifies their own lifestyle and all the perks they get as a result.  However, statistics show the claim to be patently false, and a society based on patently false underpinnings and philosophy is doomed to failure.

RE
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Offline MKing

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 05:38:52 PM »
Attributing their own success in making money to their own attributes of intelligence, hard work and good lifestyle choices is very common amongst the nouveau riche who bootstrapped out of poverty.

Why would you EVER think that success is defined by money? Getting out of poverty wasn't about poverty or getting money to me, it was just about getting OUT. The money is just what comes along later when someone says "gee, if I had someone who could do that for me, I could accomplish THIS, or THAT", and then as in any market they decide to pay you enough to get you to change positions. Money is just market proof that you have something that someone wants, nothing more.

Perhaps those without children might mistake money for success, or those who were taught such nonsense by their parents at an early age, or being raised in some big city with everything defined by how much you had. But get raised in the fields of Appalachia with no one around to show you what having "money" even means, and you learn different, and far more valuable and enduring lessons. Willpower, character, morality and ethics, and the value of friendship, and what that means.

Give me back my first friend and I'll give you every dime I have in the bank, because you cannot buy by that kind of bond.

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 06:02:59 PM »
Quote
First off, there isn't even room at the top of the heap of the ponzi, by definition here only 1% can be in the 1%

As the nuns used to tell us in grammar school. "There Can Only Be One Captain on a Ship."

Offline RE

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 06:04:48 PM »
Self-driving carz have their pluses and minuses.

It certainly would be a plus if they reduced traffic and reduced accidents as the technophiles claim they will, although until you have a statistically significant percentage of self-driving carz on the road to test the hypothesis, it's just speculation.  It also would be a plus to be able to do other tasks while in transit, like train commuters and jet-setters sometimes do, reading, working on the laptop etc.

On the minus side, they add further complexity to an already overly complex system, dependent on highly energy compsumptive technology to function properly, from the onboard computers and sensors to the internet and gps connections.  If even a small solar flare takes out a few satellites while millions of people are on the road in their self-driving carz at rush hour, what happens then?  If the motherboard on a self-driving car craps out while it is doing 70mph on the interstate, what happens then?  If you call your car to come pick you up and it is driving itself to the pickup point with nobody in it and gets a flat tire, who changes the tire?  OK, the car calls a road service team to come change the tire I suppose on this one.

The most obvious minus here is what the pricing is going to be on these techno-marvels.  Elon Musk already can't make any money with his EV Carz because people can't afford them.  Even his new El Cheapo model runs $35K or so.  This is a full year of salary for most employed people after taxes, without eating or paying rent or a mortgage.  If you spread it out over 5 years on a loan, by the time you pay it off you at least need a new battset, but it's probably got other planned obsolescence built in and you need to replace it entirely.

Now, add to the price of this El Cheapo EV the price of the electronics to make it self-driving.  WTF is going to be buying this car?  Only 1%ers.  So by no means will self-driving carz fix our transportation system problems.  It gets a whole lot worse than this when you try and do this with trucks that daily have to drop trailers in muddy dropyards, negotiate with lumpers to load and unload trailers, etc.

Basically, it's a techno-gimmick.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline RE

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2016, 06:09:46 PM »
Quote
First off, there isn't even room at the top of the heap of the ponzi, by definition here only 1% can be in the 1%

As the nuns used to tell us in grammar school. "There Can Only Be One Captain on a Ship."

That is more or less true, but there is no fundamental reason why the Captain should make more money than the deckhands handling the cargo or the mechanics maintaining the engines.  They are all necessary for the function of the ship.

RE
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2016, 06:15:16 PM »
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Self-driving carz have their pluses and minuses.

If you were from Beantown it would be all pluses.

The crazy bastards around here driving are too much, and that's no BS. Have to look 360 degrees to keep from being sideswiped, rear ended, cut off by a crazy. The frgging texters are the worst of the lot now. Something about someone weaving lanes right beside you who is looking and playing with a cell phone.

Best idea I have ever heard of.  I do admit to not knowing the costs of such a system pro and con, but the idea itself is one I applaud.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Unnecessariat
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2016, 06:30:34 AM »
Quote
First off, there isn't even room at the top of the heap of the ponzi, by definition here only 1% can be in the 1%

As the nuns used to tell us in grammar school. "There Can Only Be One Captain on a Ship."

Not always...

"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound