AuthorTopic: Renewable Energy Survey  (Read 22822 times)

Offline K-Dog

  • Administrator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
    • View Profile
    • K-Dog
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2016, 07:17:19 AM »
Perhaps the choo-choo will come back and the nostalgic dreamers can stand proud with the plants.
I doubt you could maintain the steam engines, forge new parts, rails etc utilizing just biomass.  They needed to burn a LOT of coal to build and run those things.
As the Archdruid said about maintaining the Internet in catabolic collapse, maintaining a rail system using biomass energy certainly COULD be done.  That is not the real issue.  The real question is, would it be worth it?

As an interesting example, a knight's armor represented about the same percentage of the economic output of the average medieval kingdom as a jet fighter's percentage of a modern industrial state's GDP.

So, no, railroads will NOT just be toys for the rich in a powerdown scenario.  Either there will be enough freight traffic to justify the expense of maintaining them, or they will not exist.  And as James Dakin likes to point out, trade is a function of peace and stability, two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction occurs.

Quote
And as James Dakin likes to point out, trade is a function of peace and stability, two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction occurs.

Two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction happens unless Americans discover SOLIDARITY.  It all comes back to this word that Americans do not understand.  Changed social arrangements will be a big part of our future along with biomass.  Existing social arrangement will not take Americans to a promised land, or even any future worth having.  Change is needed.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline K-Dog

  • Administrator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
    • View Profile
    • K-Dog
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2016, 07:29:41 AM »

Perhaps the choo-choo will come back and the nostalgic dreamers can stand proud with the plants.

I doubt you could maintain the steam engines, forge new parts, rails etc utilizing just biomass.  They needed to burn a LOT of coal to build and run those things.

RE

You can or you can't, it all depends on the scale of the operation.  Steam choo-choos were notoriously inefficient.  I recall 3% efficient; far worse than a gas driven car.  Well dried wood can operate a choo-choo but it would take a lot of wood so choo-choos would have to be used sparingly if they resembled anything like  past examples.  A biomass electric plant driving an electric train would be more efficient but it would require that word I seem to be obsessed with today to make such a socially complex operation work.  Can't have one warlord operating the electric plant and another running the train.  It would take solidarity to make it happen.

A picture of 'Rail Car One'

Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline K-Dog

  • Administrator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
    • View Profile
    • K-Dog
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2016, 07:35:23 AM »
And as James Dakin likes to point out, trade is a function of peace and stability, two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction occurs.

One of the things that is easy to forget as the contraction winds in slow motion. We've already seen who the militarized police are working for. And if Louisiana is any guide, those with a monopoly on armed force will now have the added protection of hate-crime legislation.

Hence my concern about gold as a store of wealth. Clearly it has worked as such as long as people have pulled the precious yellow from the ground. And also as history has taught, wealth is as good as your ability to hold onto it and defend it.

Better for a peasant to be long potatoes.

Yes go long on 'Yukon Gold' potatoes!



It is how you may pay your taxes someday soon.  Soon being a relative term.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11653
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2016, 11:38:15 AM »
And as James Dakin likes to point out, trade is a function of peace and stability, two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction occurs.

One of the things that is easy to forget as the contraction winds in slow motion. We've already seen who the militarized police are working for. And if Louisiana is any guide, those with a monopoly on armed force will now have the added protection of hate-crime legislation.

Hence my concern about gold as a store of wealth. Clearly it has worked as such as long as people have pulled the precious yellow from the ground. And also as history has taught, wealth is as good as your ability to hold onto it and defend it.

Better for a peasant to be long potatoes.



And have a very well hidden root cellar.  ;)
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11653
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2016, 11:57:18 AM »
I do think biomass will be a big part of our energy future, if there is an energy future.



Pig Poop Powers North Carolina Farm

Scaling up waste-to-energy technology could transform the hog farming industry.

By Wendee Nicole|Friday, February 21, 2014

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/17-pig-poop-powers-north-carolina-farm


Pig Poo - Landline - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC)

www.abc.net.au/.../s4415031.htm

Mar 11, 2016 - Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are ...

PIP COURTNEY, PRESENTER: Farmers in Australia's intensive livestock industries are increasingly seeing manure as a source of income rather than a cost and pork producers have been leading the way in converting poo into profit. Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are converting biogas into energy. Some of the newest research is even looking at how manure could replace synthetic fertilisers, and surprisingly, be converted into stockfeed. Sean Murphy with this report.

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2016/s4415031.htm



Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Eddie

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 16343
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2016, 12:50:43 PM »
I do think biomass will be a big part of our energy future, if there is an energy future.



Pig Poop Powers North Carolina Farm

Scaling up waste-to-energy technology could transform the hog farming industry.

By Wendee Nicole|Friday, February 21, 2014


http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/17-pig-poop-powers-north-carolina-farm


Pig Poo - Landline - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC)

www.abc.net.au/.../s4415031.htm

Mar 11, 2016 - Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are ...

PIP COURTNEY, PRESENTER: Farmers in Australia's intensive livestock industries are increasingly seeing manure as a source of income rather than a cost and pork producers have been leading the way in converting poo into profit. Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are converting biogas into energy. Some of the newest research is even looking at how manure could replace synthetic fertilisers, and surprisingly, be converted into stockfeed. Sean Murphy with this report.

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2016/s4415031.htm

This is what I was talking about. Good find, AG. I wasn't referencing buring wood, but rather turning existing waste streams into methane, instead of pollution.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11653
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2016, 01:17:13 PM »
I do think biomass will be a big part of our energy future, if there is an energy future.



Pig Poop Powers North Carolina Farm

Scaling up waste-to-energy technology could transform the hog farming industry.

By Wendee Nicole|Friday, February 21, 2014


http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/17-pig-poop-powers-north-carolina-farm


Pig Poo - Landline - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC)

www.abc.net.au/.../s4415031.htm

Mar 11, 2016 - Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are ...

PIP COURTNEY, PRESENTER: Farmers in Australia's intensive livestock industries are increasingly seeing manure as a source of income rather than a cost and pork producers have been leading the way in converting poo into profit. Seven farms are now earning carbon credits by capturing methane gas for the Government's Emissions Reduction Fund, but many more are converting biogas into energy. Some of the newest research is even looking at how manure could replace synthetic fertilisers, and surprisingly, be converted into stockfeed. Sean Murphy with this report.

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2016/s4415031.htm

This is what I was talking about. Good find, AG. I wasn't referencing buring wood, but rather turning existing waste streams into methane, instead of pollution.


Thank you. And all the other existing waste streams, as you state, will also be a big part of methane production instead of pollution.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:18:52 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline K-Dog

  • Administrator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
    • View Profile
    • K-Dog
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2016, 01:31:46 PM »
I know of a county in Wisconsin that is getting most of its natural gas from cow manure.  It is interesting to note that these successes never make the news and one must sleuth or blindly trip over them to find these success stories.  It is almost like anything that would upset the dominance of the fossil fuel extraction industries is suppressed by mainstream media.

Of course we have a free press committed to the the health of the nation and the welfare of its people so that can't happen.  For that to happen TPTB would have to actually embrace evil as a guiding creed and have total distain for their reader and viewerships.  Fortunately that is too far fetched and unpatriotic to actually be the case so there must be another explanation. 

Anyone care to tell me what that is?
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 14569
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2016, 02:57:01 PM »
I know of a county in Wisconsin that is getting most of its natural gas from cow manure.  It is interesting to note that these successes never make the news and one must sleuth or blindly trip over them to find these success stories.  It is almost like anything that would upset the dominance of the fossil fuel extraction industries is suppressed by mainstream media.

Of course we have a free press committed to the the health of the nation and the welfare of its people so that can't happen.  For that to happen TPTB would have to actually embrace evil as a guiding creed and have total distain for their reader and viewerships.  Fortunately that is too far fetched and unpatriotic to actually be the case so there must be another explanation. 

Anyone care to tell me what that is?

Your sarcasm is duly noted, and while I share it, a simpler lowest common denominator may be available: simple greed.
The disdained audience is also cultivated, with a virtual assortment of sugar pills and bovine growth hormones, the better to be bundled into thousands and sold on an ad schedule.  the practitioners get to say, "we're running a business here, " which they indeed are. And as long as you don't examine the premises, you can keep sleepwalking forward until the next two "bad books" (ratings reports), and are replaced by the next set of drones who attempt a new way to cut themselves to success. Wash, rinse, repeat. Look at most city newspapers these days. Or watch any local newscast (you do it; I can no longer bear it.)

Business is driven by MBAs and the logic of the spreadsheet. Human spirit, invention and creativity can't be quantified, and are thus useless to the swells and grandees who run such institutions.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 34884
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2016, 03:02:40 PM »
As the Archdruid said about maintaining the Internet in catabolic collapse, maintaining a rail system using biomass energy certainly COULD be done. 

Mr. Wizard is incorrect.  The only way railroads work at all is at scale, with either lots of people or lots of freight.  Even railroad tycoons didn't have an engine pulling their Private Car all by its lonesome, it got tacked onto a train with J6P stuffed in the other cars. Even a mega rich pigman cannot support the infrastructure of a railroad, anymore than today's pigmen could support the road system for their Mazeratis or the airports for their Private Jets.  So it is a lot of nonsense when people say the Elite will still be driving and flying around while J6P is turned into a pedestrian serf.  When it goes, it goes for everyone.

If railroads were to be run at scale on biomass, they would burn the fuel faster than you could grow it, not to mention all the water needed to grow the food and run the steam engines.  This idea is just a fantasy.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 34884
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2016, 03:11:48 PM »
I know of a county in Wisconsin that is getting most of its natural gas from cow manure.

If you use cow or pig manure for methane production, then it is no longer useful as fertilizer.  You've burned out the energy content.  You can't have your shit and eat it too.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 14569
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2016, 03:22:40 PM »

Two things which are likely to be in very short supply as economic contraction happens unless Americans discover SOLIDARITY.  It all comes back to this word that Americans do not understand.  Changed social arrangements will be a big part of our future along with biomass.  Existing social arrangement will not take Americans to a promised land, or even any future worth having.  Change is needed.

Watched an interesting interview last night with Sebastian Junger, author of Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging Hardcover. He talked about the difficulties faced by veterans returning to civilian life sometimes after many deployments, after having lived and fought in close quarters in groups of about 40-- essentially a tribe. the transition from tribal living to modern materialistic alienation is the source of much of the PTSD, maladjustment and vets suicides, according to Junger.

From the blurb:
Quote
Combining history, psychology, and anthropology, TRIBE explores what we can learn from tribal societies about loyalty, belonging, and the eternal human quest for meaning. It explains the irony that for many veterans as well as civilians-war feels better than peace, adversity can turn out to be a blessing, and disasters are sometimes remembered more fondly than weddings or tropical vacations. TRIBE explains why we are stronger when we come together, and how that can be achieved even in today's divided world.

http://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-Sebastian-Junger/dp/1455566381/ref=zg_bs_16311441_1
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2016, 03:56:35 PM »
As the Archdruid said about maintaining the Internet in catabolic collapse, maintaining a rail system using biomass energy certainly COULD be done. 

Mr. Wizard is incorrect.  The only way railroads work at all is at scale, with either lots of people or lots of freight.  Even railroad tycoons didn't have an engine pulling their Private Car all by its lonesome, it got tacked onto a train with J6P stuffed in the other cars. Even a mega rich pigman cannot support the infrastructure of a railroad, anymore than today's pigmen could support the road system for their Mazeratis or the airports for their Private Jets.  So it is a lot of nonsense when people say the Elite will still be driving and flying around while J6P is turned into a pedestrian serf.  When it goes, it goes for everyone.

If railroads were to be run at scale on biomass, they would burn the fuel faster than you could grow it, not to mention all the water needed to grow the food and run the steam engines.  This idea is just a fantasy.

RE

You mean JDW is incorrect, your reading is slipping, seriously. After almost 6 yrs of following the doom tabloid press, JMG has turned out to be correct.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 03:58:31 PM by Uncle Bob »
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 34884
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2016, 04:19:19 PM »
As the Archdruid said about maintaining the Internet in catabolic collapse, maintaining a rail system using biomass energy certainly COULD be done. 

Mr. Wizard is incorrect.  The only way railroads work at all is at scale, with either lots of people or lots of freight.  Even railroad tycoons didn't have an engine pulling their Private Car all by its lonesome, it got tacked onto a train with J6P stuffed in the other cars. Even a mega rich pigman cannot support the infrastructure of a railroad, anymore than today's pigmen could support the road system for their Mazeratis or the airports for their Private Jets.  So it is a lot of nonsense when people say the Elite will still be driving and flying around while J6P is turned into a pedestrian serf.  When it goes, it goes for everyone.

If railroads were to be run at scale on biomass, they would burn the fuel faster than you could grow it, not to mention all the water needed to grow the food and run the steam engines.  This idea is just a fantasy.

RE

You mean JDW is incorrect, your reading is slipping, seriously. After almost 6 yrs of following the doom tabloid press, JMG has turned out to be correct.

I stand corrected.  The first sentence should read "JDWs analogy to Mr. Wizard's idea that you could run the internet on biomass is incorrect."

However, Mr. Wizard is incorrect on the original internet statement as well, for much the same reason.  The internet only works at very large scale and consumes a HUGE amount of energy.  This also would burn the biomass faster than you could grow it.

You might be able to run small scale peer-to-peer networks and keep your cell phones charged up with biomass, but the massive world wide web couldn't run that way.  You also have the problem of the manufacture of the computers and the mining of all the elements that go in the semiconductors and the batteries and OLED screens, which I doubt could be done at scale with biomass.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy Survey
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2016, 04:20:54 PM »
I know of a county in Wisconsin that is getting most of its natural gas from cow manure.

If you use cow or pig manure for methane production, then it is no longer useful as fertilizer.  You've burned out the energy content.  You can't have your shit and eat it too.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Ash is good fertilizer too, having been burnt, but nobody said anything about the town depending on growing its own food.

Feedlot manure is what would be used as its easy to collect, no wandering fields. This is unfit for fertilizer according to many people as its full of hormones, so is not missed in food production any more than all the sewage pumped into the sea.

Its a step in the right direction  IMO.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 04:22:57 PM by Uncle Bob »
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1699 Views
Last post August 15, 2013, 11:53:16 AM
by agelbert
42 Replies
11093 Views
Last post September 05, 2014, 05:46:08 AM
by Golden Oxen
0 Replies
320 Views
Last post May 28, 2016, 08:57:29 PM
by RE