AuthorTopic: Another One Bites the Dust  (Read 10802 times)

Offline g

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 04:15:53 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Ashvin on June 21, 2016, 08:40:47 PM


    Gotta love the Christian values on display in this thread, right GO?

    To be fair, only one out of RE, AZ and AG claim to be Christian...

Ash, I'm overcome and all teared up from the Love, Compassion, Understanding and Forgiveness that emanates from this thread; it simply permeates my mind after reading such devout Christian Literature. The Lord Himself must be smiling.  :laugh: :laugh: :icon_mrgreen:


                                                   

                                                      Rembrandt - Jesus

Offline azozeo

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 05:35:06 AM »
I doubt he would have shed any tears if one of them offed himself after his table got flipped over.

Probably would have, since he gave his life for the chance for everyone, including the money changers, to repent and be saved. That's the story, anyways.

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

Ok,
We'll let you slide on this one due to the fact that your not one to deviate from the 15th century re-write.

Here's the straight scoop as researched by Ralph Ellis.

J.C. was the King of the Jews, RIGHT ? We're all still on the same page here.... good

J.C. was sick & tired of Roman occupation & taxation, RIGHT ?

J.C. rounded up the boys & went to Rome to square things away. The table over turning event with money
changers was the battle in so many words.  J.C. lost the battle. He was crucified, RIGHT ?

Here's where the story changes. He didn't die on the cross. He & Mary Magdeline moved to the British Isles & set
up shop there. You'll have to read Ralph Ellis' books to finish the story if your interested.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 07:55:05 AM »

No he would shed a tear.  For it is written:

Quote
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Fatherís care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So donít be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Then he would flip another table over.

I am sure Jesus cared a lot about Sparrows.  I do not think he gave a flying fuck about Banksters.  Sparrows and Banksters are two entirely different things.

I have a very literal interpretation of the Bible in this respect.  :icon_sunny:

RE

Good Point!  The love Jesus had for all his children had limits no doubt.  Unless we take him as an abstract spiritual guide who's absolute existence is irrelevant.  In the real world he would have certainly turned it on and turned it off just like the rest of us.  It might not have been good to be around him when he was having a bad day and feeling a bit forsaken.  Jesus with a migraine; not good!

Karpatok has the spiritual guide part spot on.  And me agreeing with Karpatok is like Jesus feeding ten thousand people with two fish and a loaf of bread, Jesus walking on water, or putting the fossil back in fuel.  A miracle; but anybody who calls themselves a Christian and is not familiar with what Karpatok wrote isn't one and really it is as simple as that.  This includes all men on horseback wearing hoods like those shown in Django and lots of others.



Quote
That is something you just do not understand, RE. Jesus cared about everyone. Every sinner, every fallen and failed human being. That is why He was Jesus, the Son of God. We are not because we refuse to live up to what He asked, that we love one another through Him. And because we fail to do that, He died on the Cross for our sins, to redeem our fallen nature. - Karpatok

Another way to put it is he suffered collapse on the cross because he knew collapse would be our fate since we refuse to live up to what he asked of us and love each other.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 05:28:04 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 07:58:58 AM »
I doubt he would have shed any tears if one of them offed himself after his table got flipped over.

Probably would have, since he gave his life for the chance for everyone, including the money changers, to repent and be saved. That's the story, anyways.

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

Ok,
We'll let you slide on this one due to the fact that your not one to deviate from the 15th century re-write.

Here's the straight scoop as researched by Ralph Ellis.

J.C. was the King of the Jews, RIGHT ? We're all still on the same page here.... good

JC never claimed to be any Earthly king or ruler of anything or anyone. He did claim to be God, however, who is the one true sovereign.

Quote
J.C. was sick & tired of Roman occupation & taxation, RIGHT ?

Wrong. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

Quote
J.C. rounded up the boys & went to Rome to square things away. The table over turning event with money
changers was the battle in so many words.  J.C. lost the battle. He was crucified, RIGHT ?

Wrong, in so far as nothing really happened to Jesus right after the table turning event. Oh, and he never went to Rome...

Quote
Here's where the story changes. He didn't die on the cross. He & Mary Magdeline moved to the British Isles & set up shop there. You'll have to read Ralph Ellis' books to finish the story if your interested.

If Mr. Ellis gets as many things wrong as you did here, I doubt it's worth the time.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:03:51 AM by Ashvin »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 09:02:14 AM »
. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

It has been argued by some people that Jesus was being baited on the occasion of that famous quotation, and that his response can be construed as a deliberate innuendo, rather than a straight-up response.

I think it's interesting to consider the passage (from Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well a number of other sources that might be considered apocryphal) in terms of the historical/political context.  I'm not trying to say the article below is completely correct, but it does make sense to me.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/03/jeffrey-f-barr/render-unto-caesar-amostmisunderstood-newtestamentpassage/
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline azozeo

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 09:14:05 AM »
I doubt he would have shed any tears if one of them offed himself after his table got flipped over.

Probably would have, since he gave his life for the chance for everyone, including the money changers, to repent and be saved. That's the story, anyways.

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

Ok,
We'll let you slide on this one due to the fact that your not one to deviate from the 15th century re-write.

Here's the straight scoop as researched by Ralph Ellis.

J.C. was the King of the Jews, RIGHT ? We're all still on the same page here.... good

JC never claimed to be any Earthly king or ruler of anything or anyone. He did claim to be God, however, who is the one true sovereign.

Quote
J.C. was sick & tired of Roman occupation & taxation, RIGHT ?

Wrong. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

Quote
J.C. rounded up the boys & went to Rome to square things away. The table over turning event with money
changers was the battle in so many words.  J.C. lost the battle. He was crucified, RIGHT ?

Wrong, in so far as nothing really happened to Jesus right after the table turning event. Oh, and he never went to Rome...

Quote
Here's where the story changes. He didn't die on the cross. He & Mary Magdeline moved to the British Isles & set up shop there. You'll have to read Ralph Ellis' books to finish the story if your interested.

If Mr. Ellis gets as many things wrong as you did here, I doubt it's worth the time.



You're right, you're time is profoundly to important to include new information as the
old stuff still serves it's purpose.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You've got your happiness 24/7 365 & I've got mine.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline g

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 09:28:06 AM »
. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

It has been argued by some people that Jesus was being baited on the occasion of that famous quotation, and that his response can be construed as a deliberate innuendo, rather than a straight-up response.

I think it's interesting to consider the passage (from Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well a number of other sources that might be considered apocryphal) in terms of the historical/political context.  I'm not trying to say the article below is completely correct, but it does make sense to me.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/03/jeffrey-f-barr/render-unto-caesar-amostmisunderstood-newtestamentpassage/

That was quite an article, I quit halfway through it because it got carried away with itself IMO.

My interpretation and what had been taught me was very simple.

Know the difference between the laws of Man and the Laws of God, and give them both their just due.

This sort of academic study, research, opinion and discussion is all fine and OK in my book, but ignores another thing taught me, that the Bible was written not so much for scholars, but for ordinary men to become acquainted with the teachings of Jesus and the examples he showed us of how to follow him.

Have always found my religion to be very complex and confusing, these points are only my two cents and lay persons version of what was taught me on this matter, and it made sense to me so I never refuted or spent much time thinking about it.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 10:07:26 AM »
. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

It has been argued by some people that Jesus was being baited on the occasion of that famous quotation, and that his response can be construed as a deliberate innuendo, rather than a straight-up response.

I think it's interesting to consider the passage (from Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well a number of other sources that might be considered apocryphal) in terms of the historical/political context.  I'm not trying to say the article below is completely correct, but it does make sense to me.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/03/jeffrey-f-barr/render-unto-caesar-amostmisunderstood-newtestamentpassage/

It seems to me that the article's emphasis on the political and historical setting works against their interpretation. Jesus was revolutionary in every way and certainly did not follow in the footsteps of other Jewish Messianic claimants. I think this suggests that he would not be involving himself in rhetoric against the Roman Empire during his preaching.

The bigger point is that, IF Jesus were to be involved in such rhetoric, telling people NOT to pay taxes or that paying taxes to a pagan authority was against God's law, we should certainly expect to find reports of this in at least one of the Gospels. But we don't... why not? Probably because it never happened.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 10:23:39 AM »
. In fact he told his disciples NOT to resist the Romans with force and to keep PAYING taxes.

It has been argued by some people that Jesus was being baited on the occasion of that famous quotation, and that his response can be construed as a deliberate innuendo, rather than a straight-up response.

I think it's interesting to consider the passage (from Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well a number of other sources that might be considered apocryphal) in terms of the historical/political context.  I'm not trying to say the article below is completely correct, but it does make sense to me.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/03/jeffrey-f-barr/render-unto-caesar-amostmisunderstood-newtestamentpassage/

That was quite an article, I quit halfway through it because it got carried away with itself IMO.

My interpretation and what had been taught me was very simple.

Know the difference between the laws of Man and the Laws of God, and give them both their just due.

This sort of academic study, research, opinion and discussion is all fine and OK in my book, but ignores another thing taught me, that the Bible was written not so much for scholars, but for ordinary men to become acquainted with the teachings of Jesus and the examples he showed us of how to follow him.

Have always found my religion to be very complex and confusing, these points are only my two cents and lay persons version of what was taught me on this matter, and it made sense to me so I never refuted or spent much time thinking about it.

I hear you GO, but I also think Paul teaches us that there is more to God's word than just the most basic understanding. He talks about how such an understanding can be thought of as milk for an infant:

"1Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldlyómere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready"

The author of Hebrews (who may be Paul) also says: 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of Godís word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

And Paul mentions the "deep things of God": The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God

So, in principle, I don't have a problem with challenging the common "lay person" interpretations of scripture. It certainly needs to be understood in its political, cultural, historical and theological context. For ex, I think most evangelicals completely misinterpret the book of Revelation.  But, as you say, we should also guard against getting too carried away with dissecting the text and inserting our own understanding of words into God's understanding of HIS word.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:25:19 AM by Ashvin »

Offline RE

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 05:31:06 PM »
This sounds like a Biblical debate.  I'm still waiting for the Hopi part.

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 05:36:20 PM »
If we go with bankers in the abstract then RE is right.  Jesus would have had no love for bankers because then as no individual would be referred to; his dictum of universal love would not be violated.   

As it is written, it is easier for a rich man to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get a ticket on the celestial bus to heaven.  That's a very clear memo.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 05:39:56 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline g

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 08:31:38 PM »
If we go with bankers in the abstract then RE is right.  Jesus would have had no love for bankers because then as no individual would be referred to; his dictum of universal love would not be violated.   

As it is written, it is easier for a rich man to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get a ticket on the celestial bus to heaven.  That's a very clear memo.

Jesus loved all of us, no phrases or word groupings changes that in my understanding of Him.

As to the eye of the needle, let's not forget that it doesn't mean that someone who shows up at the Pearly Gates with empty pockets is greeted with smiles and let inside.


Offline Ashvin

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2016, 05:32:20 AM »
If we go with bankers in the abstract then RE is right.  Jesus would have had no love for bankers because then as no individual would be referred to; his dictum of universal love would not be violated.   

As it is written, it is easier for a rich man to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get a ticket on the celestial bus to heaven.  That's a very clear memo.

I think you guys are forgetting the lines shortly after...

They ask 'then who of us can be saved'? And Jesus says, 'with man it is impossible, but through God all things are possible'.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2016, 05:59:38 AM »
This sounds like a Biblical debate.  I'm still waiting for the Hopi part.

RE

I for one don't mind derailing a thread venerating suicide into one glorifying God ;-)

The Hopi thing is a non-starter until AZ points to a specific Hopi tradition or prophecy that is relevant to his naturalist position.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Another One Bites the Dust
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2016, 06:31:48 AM »
This sounds like a Biblical debate.  I'm still waiting for the Hopi part.

RE


The Hopi have always land as sacred. The Hopi and the Navajo did not have a conception of land being bounded and divided.  They live in a collective 'we' where individual riches at least to the degree that it has become a pathology in western civilization are not valued.  A Hopi hedge fund manager would be a contradiction.

Since Sanjay Valvani started this thread we should know more about him.



Sanjay Valvani, dead banker of the week.

Reuters/Lucas Jackson; June 15, 2016

A Manhattan hedge fund manager was charged on Wednesday with trading on confidential tips about drug approvals, in one of the biggest insider trading cases since a 2014 court ruling made it harder for U.S. prosecutors to pursue them.

U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara in Manhattan accused Sanjay Valvani of Visium Asset Management LP of fraudulently making $25 million by gaining advance word about U.S. Food and Drug Administration approvals of generic drug applications.

Prosecutors said the inside information was provided by Gordon Johnston, a consultant who got tips from a friend and former FDA colleague still working at the agency.

Valvani passed some of these tips to Christopher Plaford, then a Visium portfolio manager, who made his own illegal trades, prosecutors said.

"Sadly these are schemes we see time and time again, where lies and use of non-public information profits those conducting the crimes, and everyday investors lose out," FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Diego Rodriguez said in a statement.

Prosecutors also accused Plaford and Stefan Lumiere, another former Visium portfolio manager, of fraudulently inflating the value and liquidity of a bond fund they oversaw by getting "sham" price quotations from brokers, in an effort to prevent investors from demanding their money back.

"AN INNOCENT MAN"

Bharara has won dozens of insider trading convictions over the last several years, including of hedge fund manager Raj Rajaratnam and Steven A. Cohen's firm SAC Capital Advisors.

But such cases became tougher to prosecute in December 2014 when a federal appeals court in Manhattan voided his convictions of hedge fund managers Todd Newman and Anthony Chiasson.

That court said prosecutors needed to show that traders knew the people who provided inside tips received something consequential in exchange.

Barry Berke, a lawyer for Valvani, in a statement accused Bharara of "stretching the facts and law to try to transform entirely innocent trading decisions into a crime."

Berke also called Valvani "an innocent man whose investment decisions were always based on rigorous and entirely appropriate research and analysis."

Valvani, 44, of Brooklyn, New York, pleaded not guilty in the U.S. District Court in Manhattan to five counts including securities fraud, wire fraud and conspiracy. He was freed on $5 million bond secured by his home.

Lumiere, 45, of New York, was charged with securities fraud, wire fraud and conspiracy, and freed on $1 million bond after a brief court appearance. He did not enter a plea.

Johnston, 64, of Olney, Maryland, and Plaford, 38, of Bedford, New York, pleaded guilty earlier this month to related charges and are cooperating with prosecutors.

The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filed civil charges against all four defendants. It said Valvani's illegal profit, including from other trades, was $32 million.

Lumiere's lawyer Eric Creizman, Plaford's lawyer David Smith and Johnston's lawyer Christopher Mead declined to comment.

A MOMENTA TIP

Founded in 2005 by Jacob Gottlieb, who has a medical degree, Visium oversees about $7 billion of assets. Last month, The Wall Street Journal said investors asked to redeem about $1.5 billion after news of the federal probes surfaced.

The Visium Global multi-strategy fund gained 10.2 percent in 2015, and the Visium Balanced healthcare fund rose 5.6 percent.

"I am deeply saddened by today's events," Gottlieb said in an email. Visium was not charged.

Valvani's alleged scheme ran from 2005 to 2011, centered on "political intelligence" that Johnston got from his former colleague at the FDA,] where he was once deputy director of the Office of Generic Drugs.

According to court papers, Visium paid Johnston hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, but Valvani asked its chief financial officer in a Jan. 6, 2010 email to award a raise.

Johnston "is without question the most valuable consultant I've ever worked with and I'm pushing to reinforce the value of the relationship and encourage him to continue to go above and beyond for our team," Valvani allegedly wrote.

Prosecutors said he did just that, sending tips about Momenta Pharmaceuticals Inc's (MNTA.O) effort to win FDA approval for the first generic equivalent to Sanofi SA's (SASY.PA) Lovenox, for treating deep vein thrombosis.

After Momenta won approval in July 2010, causing its stock to rise 82 percent in one day, Valvani made $25 million from selling his Momenta stock, and closing bets that Sanofi stock would fall because of the new competition, prosecutors said.

The SEC said Valvani reaped another $7 million by later selling Momenta short, based on tips that Watson Pharmaceuticals Inc might also win approval for a Lovenox generic.

These trades helped Valvani receive bonuses topping $11.5 million in 2010 and $10.5 million in 2011, dwarfing his $2.5 million bonus in 2009, the SEC said.

Prosecutors said Valvani called Johnston in January 2011 to end their relationship, "in the wake of news reports of insider trading investigations."

(This story corrects name in 17th paragraph to Jacob Gottlieb)

(Reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York, additional reporting by Svea Herbst-Bayliss and Brendan Pierson in New York; editing by Lisa Von Ahn and Andrew Hay)

Seems like Valvani feared he would suffer the same fate legions of average Americans do every year and suffer unemployment as the result of 'drug testing'.  Unlike average Americans do though, he did not just suck it up.  It sucked him up.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 06:38:49 AM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

 

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