AuthorTopic: Internet Based University Education  (Read 1823 times)

Offline jdwheeler42

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Internet Based University Education
« on: July 20, 2016, 10:03:03 PM »
Aggregate statistics are just a lot of sad stories heaped together. Most of the student loan debt is waste, money siphoned off by predatory conduit schemes dreamed up by smart sociopaths working for corporate interests. The people who fall into that trap are the ones who should be doing the farm labor you alluded to, and not getting degrees in saturated fields that they lack the ability to compete in.
Aggregate statistics are NOT just a lot of sad stories heaped together, they are evidence of a crime.

A few people making a bad choice is unfortunate.  The majority of a generation making the same choice is a racket.

If colleges were selling cars rather than education, the people involved would be doing hard time for breaking consumer protection laws.  The product they are selling does not work in the way it is advertised.  It's like having a car that will only start if you are going downhill.  If you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill, great!  But everyone else is screwed.

The problem is, while not everyone is fit to go to college, colleges have no incentive to turn anyone away.  They get paid no matter what.  So they encourage everyone to come, whether or not the students really have any business being there.

So, there is a real simple solution to the student loan crisis: sure, keep the student loans so that they can't be bankrupted... but the only ones who can make the loan are the colleges themselves, and they cannot transfer them.  Then, the colleges will have to worry about whether the student is a good risk or not.  And the ones who are bad at evaluating the risk will go under.
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Offline RE

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Re: Re: Knarf's Knewz Channel
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2016, 10:25:25 PM »
Aggregate statistics are just a lot of sad stories heaped together. Most of the student loan debt is waste, money siphoned off by predatory conduit schemes dreamed up by smart sociopaths working for corporate interests. The people who fall into that trap are the ones who should be doing the farm labor you alluded to, and not getting degrees in saturated fields that they lack the ability to compete in.
Aggregate statistics are NOT just a lot of sad stories heaped together, they are evidence of a crime.

A few people making a bad choice is unfortunate.  The majority of a generation making the same choice is a racket.

If colleges were selling cars rather than education, the people involved would be doing hard time for breaking consumer protection laws.  The product they are selling does not work in the way it is advertised.  It's like having a car that will only start if you are going downhill.  If you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill, great!  But everyone else is screwed.

The problem is, while not everyone is fit to go to college, colleges have no incentive to turn anyone away.  They get paid no matter what.  So they encourage everyone to come, whether or not the students really have any business being there.

So, there is a real simple solution to the student loan crisis: sure, keep the student loans so that they can't be bankrupted... but the only ones who can make the loan are the colleges themselves, and they cannot transfer them.  Then, the colleges will have to worry about whether the student is a good risk or not.  And the ones who are bad at evaluating the risk will go under.

You could simplify that idea simply by making it a requirement that the college/university/trade school cosigns the student loan, so if the student can't pay after graduation, then the cosigner has to pay.

The main problem with this is that it would put college out of reach for many poor people, because unless they were positive GENIUSES no college would take the risk on cosigning the loan for them.  On the other hand, children of wealthy people would still get to go to top colleges no matter how STUPID they were.  See George Bush for this.

This would also greatly reduce the total number of students, which means many colleges would have to close, many greatly reduced in size and a lot of staff laid off, increasing unemployment and decreasing tax revenue.

Of course, IMHO college these days is a complete waste of time and money for everyone, the education they dish out is designed for a civilization that is collapsing.  Whatever you study there these days, it's the equivalent of majoring in Buggy Whip manufacturing after Carz got invented.  The kind of education system we need has to prepare young people for the world to come, not the world currently going the way of the Dinosaur.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Internet Based University Education
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 03:49:33 AM »
Aggregate statistics are just a lot of sad stories heaped together. Most of the student loan debt is waste, money siphoned off by predatory conduit schemes dreamed up by smart sociopaths working for corporate interests. The people who fall into that trap are the ones who should be doing the farm labor you alluded to, and not getting degrees in saturated fields that they lack the ability to compete in.
Aggregate statistics are NOT just a lot of sad stories heaped together, they are evidence of a crime.

A few people making a bad choice is unfortunate.  The majority of a generation making the same choice is a racket.

If colleges were selling cars rather than education, the people involved would be doing hard time for breaking consumer protection laws.  The product they are selling does not work in the way it is advertised.  It's like having a car that will only start if you are going downhill.  If you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill, great!  But everyone else is screwed.

The problem is, while not everyone is fit to go to college, colleges have no incentive to turn anyone away.  They get paid no matter what.  So they encourage everyone to come, whether or not the students really have any business being there.

So, there is a real simple solution to the student loan crisis: sure, keep the student loans so that they can't be bankrupted... but the only ones who can make the loan are the colleges themselves, and they cannot transfer them.  Then, the colleges will have to worry about whether the student is a good risk or not.  And the ones who are bad at evaluating the risk will go under.

My feeling is that tying education and debt together is just plain wrong.

I offer the solution of moving education away from this wealthy favoring expensive outdated college shit, which is now producing mostly idiots anyway, to the internet.

My business and financial instincts lead me to believe few smart kids will bring high quality education to the masses for very tiny cost.

Instinctively I see an internet classroom in our future presenting a course in a subject being taught by an eminent professor possessing the highest credentials to millions across the globe at the same time for a nominal fee of say one dollar per pupil easily payable by Pay Pal over the net.

Having problems coming up with how you test students under this set up, but there are certainly people much smarter than me who can come up with a solution.

The internet is the solution to many of our problems IMO if we can only keep the fucking pigs from taking it over completely. It is extremely evident to me when it comes to an analysis of this archaic and ridiculous system for educating the populace we have in place today. To say nothing of the debt burden it places on society.

If that friggin little phony pig man maggot had only come up with  a Face College instead of a Facebook.  :-\


I would be willing to give a lecture about Gold to tens of millions for a nominal introductory fee, of say two bits a head.  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:


                                             





Offline RE

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 04:14:56 AM »
Instinctively I see an internet classroom in our future presenting a course in a subject being taught by an eminent professor possessing the highest credentials to millions across the globe at the same time for a nominal fee of say one dollar per pupil easily payable by Pay Pal over the net.

As long as the net is up and running, web based university education does resolve a lot of problems.

It does reduce cost per student by a LOT if you have a million students in the virtual classroom of say Noam Chomsky or Antal Fekete.  However, they pretty much only get to listen to a lecture, which you can already do on YouTube.  One Eminent Professor can't field questions from 1M students in his virtual classroom.  This is why particularly in upper level courses the Seminars usually topped out at 12 students.  I had the great fortune of participating in a seminar on Quantum Electrodynamics with Richard Feynman for a month when he visited Columbia during my Junior year.  I was one of only 3 undergrads who got to participate.

Grading exams would not be that hard, that could be done by AI.  In fact AI would probably do a better and more fair job than the Grad Students usually assigned to grade exams and papers.  You know I am sure that tenured University Professors don't do this tedious task for anything but their upper level grad students.

There are other downsides and upsides to this also.  Downside, it removes the IRL meeting of minds and friendships you develop in college with your peer group.  Upside, it removes the risk of being blown away in a Campus Shooting.

The biggest issue though is the economic one.  While this would likely vastly increase the salary of a few Eminent Professors, it would also vastly decrease the employment of many less eminent ones.  The economy of numerous College Towns all across the FSoA would completely crash as this industry left their town.  So you get the knock on effect of still more UE from this.

Then you also have the issue of curriculum, which as I mentioned needs to be radically revised in order to address the challenges of the post-collapse environment, which the current University curriculum does not do at all.

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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Re: Knarf's Knewz Channel
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 04:59:17 AM »
You could simplify that idea simply by making it a requirement that the college/university/trade school cosigns the student loan, so if the student can't pay after graduation, then the cosigner has to pay.

The main problem with this is that it would put college out of reach for many poor people, because unless they were positive GENIUSES no college would take the risk on cosigning the loan for them.  On the other hand, children of wealthy people would still get to go to top colleges no matter how STUPID they were.  See George Bush for this.

This would also greatly reduce the total number of students, which means many colleges would have to close, many greatly reduced in size and a lot of staff laid off, increasing unemployment and decreasing tax revenue.

Of course, IMHO college these days is a complete waste of time and money for everyone, the education they dish out is designed for a civilization that is collapsing.  Whatever you study there these days, it's the equivalent of majoring in Buggy Whip manufacturing after Carz got invented.  The kind of education system we need has to prepare young people for the world to come, not the world currently going the way of the Dinosaur.
The only problem I have with what you said is the bit about cosigning: it is not quite equivalent, because in that case, the college gets the money upfront, and then has to pay it back when the student defaults.  My idea is basically just deferring the revenue; the college never sees the money until the student graduates and is successful.  It's like the difference between bulemia and dieting.

As for the rest of it, absolutely, and that's the point.  College used to only be for the rich and the smart, and it should go back to that.  My idea is basically a way to triage back down to that to allow some of the current system to remain.  If nothing is done, the failure is likely to be catastrophic.

And yes, college is a waste of money for the rich, but it is a fine thing for the rich to waste their money on.

For everyone else, you would have an alternative system like GO suggests.  Charles H Smith goes into it in more detail with his "nearly-free university" idea.
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Offline RE

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 05:08:52 AM »
I split this topic off from Knarf's Knewz because it is a very good topic deserving a thread of its own.  Since we do not as of yet have an Education Forum, for now I dropped it in Futurology.  I may create an Education Forum though, because it is a very important topic which often comes up in Diner Discussions.

I did think of a way to keep the employment level up for the less than Eminent Professors and student numbers down for the Eminent ones in the internet environment.

Eminent Professors would only do seminars with Less than Eminent ones, not with students themselves.  Then Less than Less than Eminent Professors would do seminars with the Les than Eminent Professor.  And so forth down the line.

So, if at each level there are 10 Professors in a seminar with a higher level professor, you have 10 at L2, 100 at L3, 1000 at L4, 10,000 at L5 and 100,000 at L6.  Those L6 Professors serve the bottom layer of 1M students.

All the students can of course listen to lectures and view seminars and discussions between higher level people as part of their studies.  However, they can only directly interact at their own level with their own level of professor.

You have AI graded exams which make you eligible for courses given by higher level professors which anyone can take.  They are competitive exams and you need high scores to get a spot in a seminar run by a a L1 or L2 professor.

This provides a lot of employment for Professors who are part of the Ponzi, but it has economic problems.

If the students only pay say $1 per seminar, the bottom level Professor only makes $10 per seminar he runs.  If he then has to pay $2 to the next professor up the line to gain the latest knowledge, then his net profit per seminar is only $8.  The next Professor up the line makes $20, but then he has to pay $4, so his profit per seminar is just $16.  You have to be well up at the top of the pyramid to be making decent money in this Ponzi.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 05:13:08 AM »
Instinctively I see an internet classroom in our future presenting a course in a subject being taught by an eminent professor possessing the highest credentials to millions across the globe at the same time for a nominal fee of say one dollar per pupil easily payable by Pay Pal over the net.

As long as the net is up and running, web based university education does resolve a lot of problems.

It does reduce cost per student by a LOT if you have a million students in the virtual classroom of say Noam Chomsky or Antal Fekete.  However, they pretty much only get to listen to a lecture, which you can already do on YouTube.  One Eminent Professor can't field questions from 1M students in his virtual classroom.  This is why particularly in upper level courses the Seminars usually topped out at 12 students.  I had the great fortune of participating in a seminar on Quantum Electrodynamics with Richard Feynman for a month when he visited Columbia during my Junior year.  I was one of only 3 undergrads who got to participate.

Grading exams would not be that hard, that could be done by AI.  In fact AI would probably do a better and more fair job than the Grad Students usually assigned to grade exams and papers.  You know I am sure that tenured University Professors don't do this tedious task for anything but their upper level grad students.

There are other downsides and upsides to this also.  Downside, it removes the IRL meeting of minds and friendships you develop in college with your peer group.  Upside, it removes the risk of being blown away in a Campus Shooting.

The biggest issue though is the economic one.  While this would likely vastly increase the salary of a few Eminent Professors, it would also vastly decrease the employment of many less eminent ones.  The economy of numerous College Towns all across the FSoA would completely crash as this industry left their town.  So you get the knock on effect of still more UE from this.

Then you also have the issue of curriculum, which as I mentioned needs to be radically revised in order to address the challenges of the post-collapse environment, which the current University curriculum does not do at all.

RE

Yes lots of problems to be worked out for sure.

I had thought of the point of how impossible it would be to field questions from 1 million students, and came up with two possible solutions.

One we be having a representative live group of students attending the lecture with the idea that they would most likely ask questions that the million would, but that was too narrow I thought and you would need at least a thousand present.

Another would be your AI solution where students sent questions via the net and the were grouped by AI and the most pertinent or representative question from each grouping moved to the top and answered in a Q&A session after the professor had given the lecture.

Thank you for moving the topic, I had wanted to change the heading on my reply to the posting which read Knarf's news, but did not wish to possibly offend Knarf. It does belong in Futurology.

May I also comment to your observation of a great many jobs being lost. This is true but a great amount of resources are being wasted as well was my counterpoint to that which had crossed my mind as well.

When looking at all the Pros and Cons I came to the conclusion that being able to give millions of students the opportunity to be taught by the scholars and geniuses you were able to meet at a prestigious school far outweighs the negatives. There are people as well in my experience that I find spell binding on the net, which gives me quite a personal feeling and joy to having met and had the opportunity to listen to a lengthy discussion from, that would never have come my way in this corrupted capitalist pig system we have morphed into, where sports and shit are the fare presented to the public for consumption. To name just a few, Noam Chomsky, Chris Hedges, Antal Fekete.



Offline RE

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Re: Re: Knarf's Knewz Channel
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 05:18:35 AM »
College used to only be for the rich and the smart, and it should go back to that.

IOW, bye bye Democracy.

If college is only for the Rich and outrageously Smart, you no longer have equality of opportunity.  You end up with a Caste society because only those few who either have money or are ridiculously smart get access to the upper class of the society.  Everyone else gets the scut work.

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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 05:21:41 AM »
Apropos of this subject: http://www.openculture.com/2016/07/marie-curie-attended-a-secret-underground-flying-university-when-poland-blocked-her-other-women-from-advancing-their-education.html
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Re: Knarf's Knewz Channel
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 05:26:38 AM »
College used to only be for the rich and the smart, and it should go back to that.

IOW, bye bye Democracy.

If college is only for the Rich and outrageously Smart, you no longer have equality of opportunity.  You end up with a Caste society because only those few who either have money or are ridiculously smart get access to the upper class of the society.  Everyone else gets the scut work.
LOL, not exactly.  It's like saying only the rich or religious can drive a horse and buggy, everyone else has to use a car.  This is predicated on college being an antiquated system that is being replaced by something more efficient.
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Offline RE

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Internet Based University Education: Collapse AI Swarm
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 05:41:13 AM »

Another would be your AI solution where students sent questions via the net and the were grouped by AI and the most pertinent or representative question from each grouping moved to the top and answered in a Q&A session after the professor had given the lecture.

This brings up another ongoing experiment which some of us in the Collapse Community will participate in on Sunday.

Make Total Detruction (MTD) from r/collapse is hosting an AI Swarm on ULU to look at collapse questions.  It is very interesting technology.  I will participate in this AI Swarm.  It handles up to 100 participants at a time.  Click the link for more info on participating.  There are links there to the ULU website so you can find out how this works.

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Offline RE

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Re: Re: Knarf's Knewz Channel
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 05:49:22 AM »
This is predicated on college being an antiquated system that is being replaced by something more efficient.

No, it is predicated on college being replaced by something more USEFUL.

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Online Eddie

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 07:01:28 AM »
Aggregate statistics are just a lot of sad stories heaped together. Most of the student loan debt is waste, money siphoned off by predatory conduit schemes dreamed up by smart sociopaths working for corporate interests. The people who fall into that trap are the ones who should be doing the farm labor you alluded to, and not getting degrees in saturated fields that they lack the ability to compete in.
Aggregate statistics are NOT just a lot of sad stories heaped together, they are evidence of a crime.

A few people making a bad choice is unfortunate.  The majority of a generation making the same choice is a racket.

If colleges were selling cars rather than education, the people involved would be doing hard time for breaking consumer protection laws.  The product they are selling does not work in the way it is advertised.  It's like having a car that will only start if you are going downhill.  If you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill, great!  But everyone else is screwed.

The problem is, while not everyone is fit to go to college, colleges have no incentive to turn anyone away.  They get paid no matter what.  So they encourage everyone to come, whether or not the students really have any business being there.

So, there is a real simple solution to the student loan crisis: sure, keep the student loans so that they can't be bankrupted... but the only ones who can make the loan are the colleges themselves, and they cannot transfer them.  Then, the colleges will have to worry about whether the student is a good risk or not.  And the ones who are bad at evaluating the risk will go under.

My feeling is that tying education and debt together is just plain wrong.

I offer the solution of moving education away from this wealthy favoring expensive outdated college shit, which is now producing mostly idiots anyway, to the internet.

My business and financial instincts lead me to believe few smart kids will bring high quality education to the masses for very tiny cost.

Instinctively I see an internet classroom in our future presenting a course in a subject being taught by an eminent professor possessing the highest credentials to millions across the globe at the same time for a nominal fee of say one dollar per pupil easily payable by Pay Pal over the net.

Having problems coming up with how you test students under this set up, but there are certainly people much smarter than me who can come up with a solution.

The internet is the solution to many of our problems IMO if we can only keep the fucking pigs from taking it over completely. It is extremely evident to me when it comes to an analysis of this archaic and ridiculous system for educating the populace we have in place today. To say nothing of the debt burden it places on society.

If that friggin little phony pig man maggot had only come up with  a Face College instead of a Facebook.  :-\


I would be willing to give a lecture about Gold to tens of millions for a nominal introductory fee, of say two bits a head.  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:


                                             

For a small percentage of motivated, intelligent people internet education is perfect. For the average lazy-ass American new high school grad, it's completely worthless. People don't come out of public school having learned how to learn. Americans still learn that in college. Part of it is just gaining emotional maturity, which is in short supply with 18 year olds.

What you describe already exists (free internet higher education), and will no doubt get better.

https://www.ted.com/talks/shai_reshef_a_tuition_free_college_degree?language=en

https://www.ted.com/talks/anant_agarwal_why_massively_open_online_courses_still_matter?language=en

One problem is that universities don't just sell information. They sell credentials. if you don't have a good credential, all the ability and knowledge in the world may not get you a job.

But the main problem I see is that the vast majority of students need a teacher who is available in the real world...and a damn good one. Without it they're fucked.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 07:55:02 AM by Eddie »
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Offline Palloy

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 07:05:49 AM »
Swarm Intelligence is a con.   :emthdown:

The "proof" that it works is that the swarm did better at picking football results than did the individuals.  But there is NO INTELLIGENCE involved in picking football results, so there is no "swarm intelligence". 

The situation becomes clearer if you replace picking football results with picking dice throws, which everybody accepts as being random.  What will individuals pick for the first throw? - a more or less even spread of the possibilities.  What will the swarm pick? - any one possibility.  What does the first throw actually produce? - one possibility.  If the swarm gets it right, what does that prove? - nothing.

The con relies on peoples' imagined belief that they can pick football results at better than standard odds.  If they could do this, they could make a fortune betting on results, but they can't.  That's why the bookies are still in business.

What is really disappointing is that none of the stupid people on r/collapse recognise the con, and are eager to take part in this great experiment.
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Offline RE

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Re: Internet Based University Education
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2016, 11:57:03 AM »
One problem is that universities don't just sell information. They sell credentials. if you don't have a good credential, all the ability and knowledge in the world may not get you a job.

Credentialism and precisely which University your Sheepskin is issued from are a big part of the Gatekeeping in the current system.  All sheepskins are not created equal of course.  A Harvard Sheepskin gets you an interview as a currency trader for Goldman.  An Indiana State University Sheepskin gets you an interview for a Teller position at the Indiana State Farm Bank.

However, you could have similar credentialism with the Internet University.  With a series of competitive exams all along the way, you get access to seminars with Professors of Higher Eminence Level.  The more such HEL courses you qualify for the more it spruces up the Transcript.  If you made this Anonymous so that each student was known only by a number, you would prevent favored treatment of dummies like George Bush being admitted to Yale.

The Sheepskin Name isn't the main thing going to an Elite University is good for though, it's the CONTACTS you make.  It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Quote
But the main problem I see is that the vast majority of students need a teacher who is available in the real world...and a damn good one. Without it they're fucked.

As long as the teacher is available through live streaming with one-on-one help, I don't see that physically sitting in the same room together is necessary.  However, with GOs system of millions of students sitting at the feet of one Professor of High Eminence, such one-on-one contact is not possible.  You would need to use the tiered system I described to get this one-one contact, but it's hard to say how high the quality of the Profs at the lowest tier would be.  It likely would vary tremendously.  There might be some kind of student feedback rating system though for this, and students would compete to get in the seminars with the highest ranked teachers.

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