AuthorTopic: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize  (Read 13487 times)

Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 04:43:15 PM »
LOL

(I'm gonna write some more on my views on nihilism, so you have a better sense of where I'm coming from. Stay tuned!)
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 05:10:15 PM »
No worries.  As EVERYBODY KNOWS, I Pack the Heat and am the Fastest Keyboard in the West.   :icon_mrgreen:

HAVE KEYBOARD, WILL TRAVEL





You talkin' to ME?



RE
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Offline monsta666

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2016, 05:12:10 PM »
So WTF is your point here?  Some types of Nihilism are better than other types?   :icon_scratch:  We need to understand Nihilists better and make a Safe Space on the internet for them?  :icon_scratch:  We should open up our websites so Nihilists have unrestricted Free Speech?  :icon_scratch:  We need to go into a detailed analysis of the types of Nihilism in order to better understand this philosophy?  :icon_scratch:

Feel free to enlighten me how you would deal with Nihilists if you ran the fucking Diner.  I will honestly consider your suggestions.

I think the point is there are different forms of nihilists so it could be insulting to use the term as a blanket label. In other words this is an argument over semantics. We don't want to wallow in despair and think the world is over: I think everyone on the Diner agrees to that. Rather the argument is there are whole scope of different types of nihilists some of which do have opinions that are valid and can bring something useful to the table.

To put this into some context a existential nihilist will believe there is no value in life thus it could be said this type of nihilist is what aligns most closely to the article you wrote. However there are other kinds, for example the moralist nihilist will posit that morals are not inherently right or wrong and if they do exist it is an artificial construct created by people and is not natural. Thus things like murder are not inherently right or wrong: it is all relative to the moral system of humans and the context in which is delivered. It is wrong to kill an innocent in broad daylight but is it wrong to kill a pigman for crimes against humanity? To the moral nihilist they make no distinction to the two as their argument is morals do not exist in the natural world. The political nihilist are basically libertarians as they don't believe in the need for centralised forms of government.

I think, like most things, a term gets most commonly associated with one group of people so over time the term loses its original purpose. I admit to using nihilist in the way you subscribe but looking at the term more closely the way I use the term is essentially a bastardised definition of what nihilism really is as the proper term encompasses many viewpoints not all of which are not bollocks (unlike no hopers).

Offline azozeo

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2016, 05:14:28 PM »
Please define "Out to Lunch" ? Blanket statements .... mmmm mm mmmmmmm
Going through life looking for pissin' contests makes you smelly & unattractive.  :evil4:
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline azozeo

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2016, 05:16:58 PM »
So WTF is your point here?  Some types of Nihilism are better than other types?   :icon_scratch:  We need to understand Nihilists better and make a Safe Space on the internet for them?  :icon_scratch:  We should open up our websites so Nihilists have unrestricted Free Speech?  :icon_scratch:  We need to go into a detailed analysis of the types of Nihilism in order to better understand this philosophy?  :icon_scratch:

Feel free to enlighten me how you would deal with Nihilists if you ran the fucking Diner.  I will honestly consider your suggestions.

I think the point is there are different forms of nihilists so it could be insulting to use the term as a blanket label. In other words this is an argument over semantics. We don't want to wallow in despair and think the world is over: I think everyone on the Diner agrees to that. Rather the argument is there are whole scope of different types of nihilists some of which do have opinions that are valid and can bring something useful to the table.

To put this into some context a existential nihilist will believe there is no value in life thus it could be said this type of nihilist is what aligns most closely to the article you wrote. However there are other kinds, for example the moralist nihilist will posit that morals are not inherently right or wrong and if they do exist it is an artificial construct created by people and is not natural. Thus things like murder are not inherently right or wrong: it is all relative to the moral system of humans and the context in which is delivered. It is wrong to kill an innocent in broad daylight but is it wrong to kill a pigman for crimes against humanity? To the moral nihilist they make no distinction to the two as their argument is morals do not exist in the natural world. The political nihilist are basically libertarians as they don't believe in the need for centralised forms of government.

I think, like most things, a term gets most commonly associated with one group of people so over time the term loses its original purpose. I admit to using nihilist in the way you subscribe but looking at the term more closely the way I use the term is essentially a bastardised definition of what nihilism really is as the proper term encompasses many viewpoints not all of which are not bollocks (unlike no hopers).


Let the heavens part, we agree on something  :icon_sunny:

As far as I'm concerned my out to lunch philosophy sees the only
way out is up (electro-magnetically) Next octave please....
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2016, 05:22:15 PM »
Nihilism is a popular topic in philosophy, especially in so-called Continental philosophy (as generally distinguished from Analytic philosophy).

Much philosophical talk about nihilism relates to the writings of Nietzsche on this topic. It was of special concern to Nietzsche (hereinafter N) for most of his writing career.

N's conception of nihilism had much to do with asceticism, which had something to do with a distinction between "willing nothing" or "willing not to will" ... which ties in with Schopenhauer, whom N basically despised. 

I don't know what to make of all of that, because I'd probably have to read a whole pile of books very carefully to get at what this is all about. This would require at least a year of devotion to these books for six to eight hours a day, or two years for 3 to 4 hours a day -- at least.

I've concluded, in my relative ignorance, that nihilism is easier to understand than what I might learn from a devoted years long, focused study of existentialist writings.

I think of most varieties of real world "nihilism" as one variant or another of radical skepticism about KNOWLEDGE. But it is a particular kind of knowledge which would be at stake in my appraisal of these questions -- and a form of knowledge which most folks who have wrestled with philosophy have abandoned as both (a) unnecessary and (b) impossible to achieve. In essence, the kind of knowledge which has tended to be abandoned as both (a) unnecessary and (b) impossible to achieve also has a few basic parts: (1) certain (b) universal (c) demonstrable and (d) transmissible.  Almost all of early modern Western philosophy seems to have had the project of constructing a systematic "philosophy" of knowledge which had all of these attributes.  Pretty much everyone who studies the history of this agrees that all such attempts were an utter failure.

Some folks concluded from this failure that we humans therefore lack knowledge at all, and these (roughly) are known as epistemological nihilists (E.N.).  Some others may grant that we do have such knowledge, but that such knowledge is only in math and science, and does not provide a basis for ethical or "moral" values -- and these are (roughly) "value nihilists," (a.k.a. moral or ethical nihilists).  And it all gets a lot more nuanced and particularized from here. But I won't go into this because I think the whole line of thinking / reasoning / living is just a waste of time.

Why?

Because I don't think we require epistemological OR moral/ethical certainty in order to live morally and otherwise beautiful. happy and healthy lives.  I guess this makes me some sort of lazy existentialist(?), but it is simply ENOUGH for me to not want to harm others, to want to do well by others, to suppose a bag of potatos in the grocery store may well (even probably) weigh roughly ten pounds when it's been labelled as such -- and if I need to weigh them I'll put them on the nearby scale an weigh them for myself. If I really need to I can then take them to another scale and check to be sure that the prior scale was not tampered with or broken.  I know how knowledge is gained and what it means, and it never, ever means anything certain -- but I don't therefore suppose that "Nothing Fucking Matters!", as some "nihilists" will do. It seems to me a silly conclusion to draw from the obvious fact that precious little is ever certain, if anything.  (Some will say that math is certain. I'll let the mathematicians argue over that claim. I don't fucking care, really! Because I basically trust genuine human intelligence to -- in practice -- provide sufficient grounds for intelligent behavior and decision making.  I don't require a permanent Rule Book, nor Book of Answers, as a guide. I'm happy to live with contingency and process, uncertainty ... and beauty as my guides. 

Yes, beauty.  I believe in beauty and ugliness as our best moral and ethical guides, not logic or "proof"....  Healthy people simply KNOW that it is ugly to mistreat other people, and generally know mistreatment when they see it. That's good enough for me. And those who pooh-pooh EVERYTHING because it's all an open, ongoing exploration and living of life -- to me -- are fools and idiots. Not philosophers.

Wisdom, in other words, depends on the ability to perceive goodness and beauty.  And ugliness and badness. It's really that simple. And that's enough for me.

The ancients understood that truth and beauty were deeply intertwined. Modernity, with its strong emphasis on "proof" and "certainty" has largely forgotten the feelingful sensitivity which allows us to perceive this relationship directly with our senses.  This is a social problem, yes. But it is not a problem I'm having personally.

I love life.  In living it and in being in the world, I love life.

These modern and postmodern "nihilists" don't have the COURAGE to love life.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=courage

Their vitality is sapped by their alienation from life -- their own and that of others.



 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 05:32:48 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2016, 05:30:26 PM »
Now UP on Global Economic Intersection!

JL got this one up way faster than usual.

http://econintersect.com/pages/opinion/opinion.php?post=201607241827

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2016, 05:40:09 PM »
Addendum to my previous long post of moments ago:

The kind of folks RE (and others in here) have been calling "nihilists," however,  aren't tracking with this knowledge problem I'm discussing with you all here.  MOST of them DO believe they have certainty of knowledge (e.g., Guy McPherson's certainty that (paraphrasing) "utter fucking doom, and all else is 'hopium').  It is their certainty that "there is no way out of this mess" which makes them a very strange, newfangled KIND of "nihilist". They may believe it is morally wrong that we've done this to ourselves and/or the biosphere ... and/or "civilization"... so they are not necessarily value nihilists. They are just deep, deep, deeply caught by utter and total despair, and want us all to join with them in this nightmare.  But I cannot, and will not.  Their utter despair is not beautiful.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2016, 05:42:29 PM »
The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible - Charles Eisenstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oevXkJY-fE
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline azozeo

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2016, 05:54:39 PM »
Now UP on Global Economic Intersection!

JL got this one up way faster than usual.

http://econintersect.com/pages/opinion/opinion.php?post=201607241827

RE


In order to keep a site like this at the top shelf caliber that it is,
the shop keeper has to beat the drum non-stop. The same was with me in
land sales. Constant refreshing material.
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline RE

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2016, 05:58:03 PM »
They are just deep, deep, deeply caught by utter and total despair, and want us all to join with them in this nightmare.  But I cannot, and will not.  Their utter despair is not beautiful.

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder.

To a Follower of the Great Guru of Near Term Human Extinction Dr. McStinksion, the Vision of All Dead People Very Soon is Very Beautiful.

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2016, 06:03:57 PM »
Now UP on Global Economic Intersection!

JL got this one up way faster than usual.

http://econintersect.com/pages/opinion/opinion.php?post=201607241827

RE


In order to keep a site like this at the top shelf caliber that it is,
the shop keeper has to beat the drum non-stop. The same was with me in
land sales. Constant refreshing material.

GEI is Medium Shelf, not Top Shelf.  The only reason I get cross posted over there is because JL and me are old friends.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2016, 06:12:02 PM »
They are just deep, deep, deeply caught by utter and total despair, and want us all to join with them in this nightmare.  But I cannot, and will not.  Their utter despair is not beautiful.

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder.

To a Follower of the Great Guru of Near Term Human Extinction Dr. McStinksion, the Vision of All Dead People Very Soon is Very Beautiful.

RE

Do you believe there are no common human principles which make things (or events) either ugly or beautiful?

____________________________________

I have to say here that I'm very much an outsider to the view that "beauty" and "ugliness" are "aesthetic concerns," with ethics and aesthetics as very separable domains of inquiry.  Like probably everyone in this forum, however, I was raised within a culture which draws a sharp line of division between ethics and aesthetics.  (Personally, I think imposing this view on innocent children is a form of child abuse -- though the abusers don't know they are traumatizing the child while rendering their innate human intelligence damaged or broken.)

I feel precisely the same way about all forms of knowledge and inquiry.  No sharp lines of division should be drawn between them -- ethics, aesthetics,
science, reason, logic, art, play, work.... These artificial sharp boundaries are all prisons of the mind and heart. Heart and mind work beautifully when each are equally welcome a the table as precious guests who are part of an intact family of intelligence. 

Most of the horrors and atrocities in our world are the consequence of rending a person from the inside when they are too young to know any better.  The poor children grow up in a rent (simple past tense and past participle of rend) society, fractured and broken ... having lost literal touch (and other senses) with their senses... driven mad by "education" which fundamentally alienates them from themselves, other humans, and the while wide world.

It's time for us to return to our native Wholeness!  Let's put an end to all of this abuse!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 06:20:07 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2016, 06:28:49 PM »
Almost every American city (which is where most Americans live) is ugly.  And I mean ugly!

In most cities, almost the entirety of the city is given over -- physically, sonicly, aerobically... in almost every possible way to the noise and stench and rush and horrors of machines (e.g., automobiles, trucks, leaf blowers, motorcycles without proper mufflers... etc.) as the Cult of the Machine's unwritten Rule Book quite obviously reads, "Thine ears and thine lungs and thine precious sensitivities to one's environment are henceforth considered fucking irrelevant in relation to the Forevermore and Unquestionable Rule of Machinery." 

But I digress.

Any child can pick up this message.  No one must actually say it. It is obvious. And every child wants to be like Daddy and Mommy in their Wisdom.

But I digrees.

There is only digression here in the wilderness where good literal SENSE (our senses!) meets an open heart and mind not RENT by The Unquestionable and Eternal Law of Man.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline knarf

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Re: Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2016, 06:49:45 PM »
Invent your own meaning for these great cartoons........

NECROCAPITALISM at http://openmind693.wordpress.com ĎRolling thunder. Shock. A noble one in fear and dread sets things in order and is watchful.í I-Ching (Hex.51)

 

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