AuthorTopic: Official Chinese Toast Thread  (Read 225776 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Official Chinese Toast: Delusions of Techno-Cornucopians
« Reply #255 on: June 02, 2015, 09:53:22 AM »

Ukrainian Nazi indeed. Ironies abound, as it is I who actually bothers to moderate and approve your posts.

I admit to WHACKING a couple of KKs nastier posts yesterday myself.  ::)

Some folks you just can't REACH...

It's a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE.

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Online Eddie

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #256 on: June 02, 2015, 09:59:48 AM »
I just don't approve the ones that are obviously ad hom, or obviously violate the admins stated policies. Both K and MK violate these rules on purpose, and then feign mistreatment and censorship.

Most of the regulars here can read their posts anyway, and I do read them. I suppose this is why they continue their sophomoric practices.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #257 on: June 02, 2015, 10:17:57 AM »
I just don't approve the ones that are obviously ad hom, or obviously violate the admins stated policies. Both K and MK violate these rules on purpose, and then feign mistreatment and censorship.

Most of the regulars here can read their posts anyway, and I do read them. I suppose this is why they continue their sophomoric practices.

You always have to remember that READERSHIP BY LURKERS is significantly larger than the number of people who actually PARTICIPATE  in these discussions.  It's at least 1, and probably 2 orders of magnitude differential in this regard.  I can generate the stats to prove that.

What these folks seem unable to grasp is that we just won't allow them to undermine the Diner with ad hom and trash talk anymore.  If they want to waste their time writing trash for those of us who see the stuff in the mod bin, they can go right on doing so.  It will never see the light of day though.  Every Admin here knows what real trash is.  It will get DNFed.



Live With It and don't complain about censorship either, because that also will get DULY NOTED AND FILED.

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Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #258 on: June 02, 2015, 10:20:39 AM »
You are saying that Wall Street Journal, Financial Times etc. are not telling the truth;
No, of course I am not saying that. They are telling the truth. The problem is that it is a very limited, small truth.

It is like the truth that the Shanghai Composite was off quite a bit, a few days ago. Remember that? And R.E. jumped on it, gleefully pointing to the fact that the Chinese market is now crashing. Well, even if it that were true (it is not true; it has regained the losses), it would signify little, long term. Markets always fluctuate and sometimes correct violently, sometimes even "crash" seemingly disastrously. But seldom for long. Usually they roar back. In fact, they ALWAYS roar back, eventually, though it might take some years. My point to R.E. was and is that the Shanghai Composite may currently be in bubble territory, and the bubble might pop, but that it won't make much difference, long term. As I said to R.E.: The Chinese economy/GDP will be twice its current size 10 years from now. I stand by that.

So, when the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times print articles about gluts of manufactured goods, or raw materials, or whatever, I say: so what? It won't last. Yeah, it might be that way right now, and through this summer, or maybe until the end of this year. I don't know. But it will not persist. And even if it does persist, leading to a crisis, the crisis will pass. It will not be the end of the world, as the TAE/DD/Steve-from-Va axis wants to insist.

Quote
You have the obligation to put up or shut up. Where is your evidence that the Chinese DON'T have excess capacity?
No, my dear Alfonse, it is YOUR obligation to put up or shut up. You've been making the same kinds of points ("excess capacity", "market is topping", etc.) for many years now, but they never go anywhere, never amount to anything. The Chinese economy has NOT crashed. The markets have NOT crashed, or rather have not crashed and  STAYED crashed, as you seem to believe they will. Yes, there was 2008-9 -- but then it recovered, several times over. And there will probably be yet another crash -- and then it will recover, several times over.

Rather than everything crashing and staying crashed, there are crashes and then great recoveries.

Rather than everyone getting poorer and dying off, as the bears and doomsters insist is certain, everyone is getting richer and living much longer. Seriously. These are global phenomena, clearly  statistically supported and undeniable. The bears and the doomsters are so far 100% wrong, 180 degrees off.

Oh yes, I know: "next year!"  "Soon!"

Like I said to R.E.: eventually you guys have to DELIVER. You cannot perpetually say "next year" and "soon". Well, you can, but at the price of your credibility, eroding chunk by chunk with each passing year.

Quote
China's ghost cities' are still there
As I and others have documented elsewhere, China's "ghost cities" have a strange habit of FILLING UP, over several years. Of course they are empty  ("ghostly") to start with, but then they fill up. It takes 5-10 years, as you might expect. (Right? As a reasonable person, you WOULD expect that, wouldn't you? So why are you jumping all over them if they are not all filled up in TWO years?) Further, they are an excellent investment. China's economy is maturing, the middle class is growing rapidly, the entire nation in urbanizing rapidly, and China needs to put its funds and productive capacity in a place where value will be preserved (i.e. NOT more t-bills).  Built physical infrastructure is one of those places. The Chinese are smart to be doing this. 

Really, the "ghost cities" phrase is scare-mongering yellow journalism, befitting a lurid tabloid. It tells us nothing of import, except that the one using the phrase might be a bigot. ("Those dumb gooks and their ghost cities! Har har har")

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(factory work is moving out of Chine due to wage pressures), as in the West
Yes, to some extent that is going to happen as an economy matures. What of it? As long as it is not an exodus, which it isn't.

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China has the (borrowed) funds to build but not to maintain.
The absurdity of this statement can be seen by the most cursory look at images of China's great cities, great completed and operating infrastructure, great public works and monuments, and so on. China is maintaining things just fine.

Quote
Because China cannot gain a return from its so-called 'assets' it must either abandon them (they're stranded) or pay to keep them in readiness; to meet that cost requires additional rounds of loans.
Sorry, an enterprise either shows a return or it doesn't.
Because China cannot generate its own credit it must borrow dollars (yen, euros, sterling); that is, it must sell overpriced, cheaply made crap to Americans and others so that the customers borrow and send the hard-currency proceeds to China.
As Americans (and Europeans and the rest) go broke there are fewer borrowed dollars, less money to support stranded Chinese assets. This is evidenced by the Chinese government attempting to shift its economy from export driven sales to increased domestic consumption (where it can use its own 'money')
You seem to be making the case that China will crash and burn. Correct? OK, fine. But WHEN? China bears have been claiming that China will crash and burn for as long as I can remember -- easily back to the turn of the century. And there have been predictions of epochal, Armageddon-like economic crashes for many years before that -- back to the 1970s, and even before. But it never happens.

You have the obligation to put up or shut up.

Actually I have sympathy for your view. I think it is true that there are unsustainable debts and imbalances that are impelling the world toward a great reckoning. However, unlike you (and TAE), I see the asset side of the balance sheet along with the debt side. The asset side will greatly influence if not determine the long term outcome of or fallout from that reckoning. China has ASSETS, which you seem to wish to ignore. Their "ghost cities" are ASSETS. Their 12,000 miles of high-speed rail track is an ASSET. Their great infrastructure, built environment, physical economy -- all are ASSETS. Their gold, too, probably now in excess of 30,000 tons, is an asset, and one that will be of tremendous significance going forward.

The real issue is not so much when things will crash, but what will happen after the crash: how long the depressed period will be, and who will recover most and fastest, and who will go on to new peaks of economic achievement. The answer is clear to me, though perhaps not to you or anyone who is blind to the asset side of the ledger.

When I ask you "when?", what I really mean is when will be the big crash from which recovery does not occur. There will always be crashes, followed by recoveries. I'm asking when YOUR big non-recoverable crash will occur. It has been predicted for many years now. Any chance of it actually happening in the near future?

An "asset", by the way,  is property  that has value, including use value. Note that assets are not the same as LIQUID assets. 12,000 miles of high-speed rail track is obviously not liquid, but it is very much an asset. It is an asset that is capable, in the context of a functioning economy, of generating great wealth including liquid wealth, over time. This is what I mean when I speak of assets. The TAE view (and perhaps yours?) seems to be that assets don't really exist, or are not worth discussing, since everything is going to crash into nothingness, into deep depression, and not function or recover for decades, or forever. If that's the view, then of course things that I call assets are not real assets. But that's wildly improbable. That will never happen. I mean, barring the 'ol black swan (asteroid hits earth, etc., etc.).

By the way: What's with the "overpriced, cheaply made" slight? Highly-economical Chinese (or: pacific rim) goods is one of the things that keeps our purchasing power up. Things used to be more expensive; now they are cheap, relatively. In the 1980s and early 1990s, I used to pay a thousand dollars for a fair personal computer system. In more recent years, it is like two hundred dollars for a fair system. There's nothing wrong with the quality, either.



Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast: Delusions of Techno-Cornucopians
« Reply #259 on: June 02, 2015, 11:01:43 AM »
(Same thing has caught steve from va, I believe.)
You mean, the guy who predicted in 2012 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who predicted again in 2013 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who predicted again in early 2014 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who said in late 2014 that a crash in oil prices was happening?

Methinks the record is kind to him.  He needs a break from being right.

Do I detect some repetition there?
 "oil price crash in late 2014"
 "oil price crash in late 2014"
 "oil price crash in late 2014"

OK, kudos to him for being right about one thing.

Has he been right about something else?
DOW crash?
S&P crash?
China crash?
Peak oil-related crash?
Unrecoverable global economic cluster-fuck?
Mass dieoff?
Collapse of agriculture?
Anything?

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #260 on: June 02, 2015, 11:27:28 AM »
They need 375 million a day to fill their cars, every day. They must sure like to cruise the local burger joints!! So they need 375 million X 365 = 136 billion barrels of crude per year.  Current reserves stand at maybe 1.5 trillion, so those Chinese folks would use up all reserves in about a decade.


A fine way to piss away the last of the earth's most valuable resource, too, don't you think?

Nope. EVs are better. The need for crude at those kinds of levels for the Chinese is a competitive disadvantage in this century. The sooner they learn that oil is obsolete the better. The advantage that America has in this century is that it is learning this now, and the Chinese will be distracted for at least a generation with recreating something that is obsolete. Let them, and good riddance.

Quote from: Eddie
Chinese middle class, headed for Burger King.

They get the obesity and diabetes and "middle class clap" soon enough. Will be fun to watch.

clap or trap?

The average engine size in china is like the average serving sIze = slim folks on scooters. But if they would rather let the water from the great lakes go to china than california they might also let the food from all the farms they buy up go too. It doesnt translate into average chinese eating more,  just everyone else having less and paying more.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 11:30:52 AM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Official Chinese Toast: Delusions of Techno-Cornucopians
« Reply #261 on: June 02, 2015, 11:34:13 AM »
(Same thing has caught steve from va, I believe.)
You mean, the guy who predicted in 2012 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who predicted again in 2013 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who predicted again in early 2014 that the price of oil would crash in late 2014?
The guy who said in late 2014 that a crash in oil prices was happening?

Methinks the record is kind to him.  He needs a break from being right.

Do I detect some repetition there?
 "oil price crash in late 2014"
 "oil price crash in late 2014"
 "oil price crash in late 2014"

OK, kudos to him for being right about one thing.

Has he been right about something else?
DOW crash?
S&P crash?
China crash?
Peak oil-related crash?
Unrecoverable global economic cluster-fuck?
Mass dieoff?
Collapse of agriculture?
Anything?

Are you not familiar with Steve's work?

He has not predicted those things, to the best of my knowledge. His concentration has been on the relationship between energy, money and growth. Read Tom Lewis's most recent post, which will appear here tomorrow, for more.

"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #262 on: June 02, 2015, 11:58:17 AM »
They need 375 million a day to fill their cars, every day. They must sure like to cruise the local burger joints!! So they need 375 million X 365 = 136 billion barrels of crude per year.  Current reserves stand at maybe 1.5 trillion, so those Chinese folks would use up all reserves in about a decade.


A fine way to piss away the last of the earth's most valuable resource, too, don't you think?

Nope. EVs are better. The need for crude at those kinds of levels for the Chinese is a competitive disadvantage in this century. The sooner they learn that oil is obsolete the better. The advantage that America has in this century is that it is learning this now, and the Chinese will be distracted for at least a generation with recreating something that is obsolete. Let them, and good riddance.

That's an interesting take. By what measure is America "learning this now", and not the Chinese? Is America going massively EV, abandoning FF vehicles?

I agree that "the sooner they learn that oil is obsolete the better". And knowing them, my hunch would be that they would learn quickly. But maybe I am wrong.

Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast: Delusions of Techno-Cornucopians
« Reply #263 on: June 02, 2015, 12:09:33 PM »
The only posters here who face moderation are those who have demonstrated a desire to disrupt or harm the board. Your comments alleging coprophagia, necrophilia, or pederasty will continue to be removed, as they serve no useful point other than to underline your own unhappiness and misery.
Well,  you'd better put me on heavy moderation, because I plan to ditch all this silly "reason" and "evidence" crap, which no one cares about, and go with ALL scatalogical/necro-erotic ad hominem,  ALL the time.

Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast: Delusions of Techno-Cornucopians
« Reply #264 on: June 02, 2015, 01:00:53 PM »
Are you not familiar with Steve's work?
Familiar with his comments on TAE and elsewhere. I remember him repeatedly calling market tops -- just like the TAE people.

Quote
He has not predicted those things
I did not say he did. Just putting up a quick-ref list of doomster meme-y things for fun. Whatever he actually DID predict can be mentioned by others.

Quote
economic-undertow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Triangle-of-Doom-1101141.png
"TRIANGLE OF DOOM"
"THE CONVERGENCE THAT DESTROYS INDUSTRIALIZATION"

I love it!  I LOVE doom-porn, actually. It's fun.

But seriously, regarding the content: I don't see any "doom" or "destruction", except for doom and destruction of that which ought to be doomed and destroyed.   

He says that "prices are too low to support expensive drilling, tar sands, etc.".
 That's GOOD!  We should not be messing with tar sands, etc. There is plenty of oil. TOO MUCH, actually. We piss most of it away on needless crap. We could easily reduce auto use by 50%, thus eliminating demand  for ~8 million barrels per day. Certainly no need for more drilling.

He says that "prices are too high to support wasteful consumption."
 That's GOOD!   We have needed higher prices for a long time, to discourage wasteful consumption and stimulate conversion to renewables (now underway, but it could go a lot faster).

How on earth can one derive "doom" and "destruction" from that which Steve depicts?  It looks like all good news, to me. Not to say that there will not be some pain in the transition process. Of course. What do you expect? Change is painful. The pain will be most acute for big-shot oil industry investors... and it will be FUN to watch them squirm and writhe (yeah, I know, schadenfreude).

What Steve depicts is not the end of industrialism. That would be a crazy, wildly exaggerated conclusion.  But it might indicate the beginning of a much-needed trimming-back.  We (and by "we" I mean we of the developed world, the north/west) have suffered from an excess of oil and  an excess of oil-derived products.  We should reduce our consumption by half, which we could easily do, without the slightest loss of quality of life, and leave the remaining FFs for the developing world -- as long as they need them (approximately from now until the renewables transition is near complete).

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 01:08:28 PM by alan2102 »

Offline alan2102

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #265 on: June 02, 2015, 02:31:58 PM »
Well, I've ventured yonder into Steve's blog, briefly -- at the urging of several. There are many things I could say, but I don't have time for them all. Instead, here's just a couple of things:

http://www.economic-undertow.com/2014/02/15/debtonomics-currency-crisis-3/

Quote
[We should] recognize the failure of industrialization and move on to some other fashion trend. Argentina’s repeated attempts to modernize have left the country with dead-money dollar debts it cannot hope to retire; it is bankrupt, it will default. It should start over with a new plan that does not include consumer products, factories or ‘progress’.
?!

This is crazy. No consumer products, no factories... and WHAT, instead? Horse-drawn ploughs? Hand-pumped water? Back to the 19th century? Or perhaps the 15th?  Crazy. Crazy-mad.  Unacceptable to anyone, bad for everyone, certain to cause mass disease, suffering and death, likely to lead to brutality, feudalism, fiefdoms and warlord-ism, likely to immisserate women and children, etc., etc., ETCETERA. Ye gads. Did Steve seriously write those words?

And he suggests abandoning modernity because of... what? Because of debts, because of bankruptcy?! That's crazy. Crazy-mad. I mean, I can imagine -- I've actually read -- half-persuasive arguments for abandoning modernity and industrialism, but they NEVER suggest same on account of unpayable monetary debts!  That's like getting a flat tire on  your car, and deciding to give up cars forever because of the flat! Maybe you should give up cars forever, but you should certainly NOT do so because of a stupid fucking flat tire!

It is actually worse than that, because at least with the flat tire you are dealing with something that  physically interferes with the operation of the car. With monetary debts, you are dealing with an abstraction. The fact that a debt is owed on  your car does not prevent  you, or someone, from driving it. To suggest otherwise is the fallacy of reification.  "We can't drive the car -- and NO ONE can drive the car -- because a piece of paper was not mailed in to the credit agency". Actually, Steve's whole blog - the economics part of it - strikes me as, very generally, an exercise in the fallacy of reification, of treating monetary abstractions as though they were real, concrete things. This is kin of animism, a superstitious belief in the agency of inanimate things.

Quote
China strips the world of resources endangering the life-support for all of life ... so some tycoons can accumulate stolen symbols. This is insanity.

Good basic point, with errors in packaging. It is not China or the developing world that is stripping the earth of resources. It is US, the north/west. We are by far the more excessive consumers of vital resources. If you had to pick a country or region most culpable, China, with a per capita GDP around $7000, would be far down on the list. As for ill-gotten gains of tycoons: greed and acquisitiveness are huge problems to be sure, but here again China is not uniquely or even especially guilty, relative to others. We probably have a higher concentration of psychopathic grasping greed-heads right here in the YOU-nited States than anywhere else on earth.

Why, then, the word "China" would pop into Steve's head in relation to these things is a mystery, most probably (but NOT surely) explained by prejudice against the Chinese, or Easterners in general. Americans have traditionally hated the "slants" and "gooks", and in earlier times treated them literally like slaves.

..............................

Bottom line: Steve's blog is not impressing me much. He makes a few good points, amongst much convoluted and agonized economic analysis. But he has this foolish/crazy anti-modernity view, which I suspect he has never really thought through. I HAVE thought it through, for years. I actually spent a fair amount of time reading the works of the anarcho-primitivists and anti-industrialism crowd. I was taken in to some extent, but never fully, and I've come to see that the whole of it is, though romantically attractive, of no use or value at this point in human development. Maybe -- MAYBE -- in a couple of centuries, AFTER everything has been modernized and everyone has had the chance to develop free from the pains and penalties of pre-modernity, it might be possible to fashion a post-modernity that is not fraught with terrible downsides. That's something for artists to chew on for a couple of generations, before we start talking about it.

Maybe I am not giving Steve a proper trial and fair shake. That's just my impression so far, at this moment.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 03:29:41 PM by alan2102 »

Offline g

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #266 on: June 03, 2015, 05:48:47 AM »

 
Quote
That's an interesting take. By what measure is America "learning this now", and not the Chinese? Is America going massively EV, abandoning FF vehicles?

I agree that "the sooner they learn that oil is obsolete the better". And knowing them, my hunch would be that they would learn quickly. But maybe I am wrong.


Hi Alan2102, Just wanted to take a second to thank you for your top notch postings and refreshing positive viewpoints. While my personal view is you have swung a bit too far from your prior doom stance to the positive side, you place great insights on the table for reflection.

Please allow me also to apologize for the treatment you are receiving from the ruling class here in calling you a troll. Looking forward to more of your insights. Regards, Golden Oxen                                                                                                                             

Online Eddie

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #267 on: June 03, 2015, 06:39:39 AM »
It's been a good thread, but bashing Steve is uncalled for. His writing is supremely well referenced, and his POV is completely rational. I don't always agree with him 100% of the time myself, but if all the writers in the blogosphere were his caliber, it'd be a much better source of information.

I'm happy for Alan to say his piece, but he gets pretty snarky at times.

Alan, you've been visiting this site longer than I have, so if there's a back story I missed it. I was wondering, just curious, what your profession is in the real world?

My experience tells me that guys with your POV generally come from one of two walks of life: the Ivory Towers of Academia, or some government or quasi-governmental bureaucratic position.

In both cases, such folks tend to be somewhat insulated from the steady degradation and decline of the quality of life here in the US...having a decent income and a fully vested pension plan paid for a least partially by the taxpaying public.

Am I completely off-base here?

My third guess is financial services, but you seem far too nice.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline g

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #268 on: June 03, 2015, 09:05:59 AM »

 
Quote
I'm happy for Alan to say his piece, but he gets pretty snarky at times.

Alan, you've been visiting this site longer than I have, so if there's a back story I missed it. I was wondering, just curious, what your profession is in the real world?

My experience tells me that guys with your POV generally come from one of two walks of life: the Ivory Towers of Academia, or some government or quasi-governmental bureaucratic position.

In both cases, such folks tend to be somewhat insulated from the steady degradation and decline of the quality of life here in the US...having a decent income and a fully vested pension plan paid for a least partially by the taxpaying public.

Hi Eddie, this is what I would categorize as snark and personal attack, but of course opinions on such matters differ.

Alan has already stated clearly that he was a doomer a short period ago, and subsequent real world events and a study process have altered his position considerably. That makes your forked tongue derogatory question, disguised as a legitimate inquiry, all the more snarky.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #269 on: June 03, 2015, 09:54:10 AM »

 
Quote
I'm happy for Alan to say his piece, but he gets pretty snarky at times.

Alan, you've been visiting this site longer than I have, so if there's a back story I missed it. I was wondering, just curious, what your profession is in the real world?

My experience tells me that guys with your POV generally come from one of two walks of life: the Ivory Towers of Academia, or some government or quasi-governmental bureaucratic position.

In both cases, such folks tend to be somewhat insulated from the steady degradation and decline of the quality of life here in the US...having a decent income and a fully vested pension plan paid for a least partially by the taxpaying public.

Hi Eddie, this is what I would categorize as snark and personal attack, but of course opinions on such matters differ.

Alan has already stated clearly that he was a doomer a short period ago, and subsequent real world events and a study process have altered his position considerably. That makes your forked tongue derogatory question, disguised as a legitimate inquiry, all the more snarky.

And who the hell made you the last word in adjudication for snark, or for that matter, trollery?

As to Alan, if you can look at the issues humanity currently faces and come to the conclusion that business as usual will continue indefintely, I want some of what you've loaded in your hookah.

► The 6 Direct Drivers of Mass Extinction are:
… 1) Climate Change
… 2) Pollution
… 3) Over-Exploitation
… 4) Habitat Loss
….5) Invasive Species
….6) Over-Population

► 50% of land vertebrate species died off in the last 50 years.
► 50% of land vertebrate species will die off in the next 40 years.

► 99% of Rhinos gone since 1914.
► 97% of Tigers gone since 1914.
► 90% of Lions gone since 1993.
► 90% of Sea Turtles gone since 1980.
► 90% of Monarch Butterflies gone since 1995.
► 90% of Big Ocean Fish gone since 1950.
► 80% of Western Gorillas gone since 1955.
► 60% of Forest Elephants gone since 1970.
► 50% of Great Barrier Reef gone since 1985.
► 50% of Human Sperm Counts gone since 1950.
► 50% of Fresh Water Fish gone since 1987.
► 40% of Giraffes gone since 2000.
► 40% of ocean phytoplankton gone since 1950.
► Ocean plankton declines of 1% per year means 50% gone in 70 years, more than 1% is likely.
► Ocean acidification doubles by 2050, triples by 2100.
► 30% of Marine Birds gone since 1995.
► 28% of Land Animals gone since 1970.
► 28% of All Marine Animals gone since 1970.
► Humans and livestock comprise 97% of earth's land vertebrate biomass; 10,000 years ago humans and livestock were a mere 0.01% of land vertebrate biomass.
► Our crop and pasture lands caused 80% of all land vertebrate species extinctions.
► 1,000,000 humans, net, are added to earth every 4˝ days.
► We have to grow more food over the next 50 years than we grew in the last 500 years.
► We need 6 million hectares of new farmland every single year to do this.
► We lose 12 million hectares of farmland every single year due to soil degradation and loss.
► Earth has only 60 years of farming left at current world soil degradation rates.

Yeah, your're right. Nothing here to worry about. What have we all been thinking?
As usual, GO, thanks for the keen insights.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

 

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