AuthorTopic: Gunz & Ammo  (Read 1383 times)

Offline RE

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Gunz & Ammo
« on: January 02, 2017, 04:02:31 PM »
I can't believe we don't have an Official Thread for Gunz & Ammo!  Now we do.

Kick off article below.

RE

California gun owners brace for shortages, price hikes under new ammo regs


1 of 4
California lawmakers and voters passed a slew of new gun and ammunition laws in 2016 that will significantly affect the state’s more than 6 million firearms owners. Gun dealers say the overlapping laws have created confusion. Ryan Sabalow The Sacramento Bee

By Ryan Sabalow

rsabalow@sacbee.com
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Matt Ball isn’t the type of gun enthusiast who hoards ammunition – at least not normally.

Ball, a 39-year-old banker from Roseville, is a casual shooter who spends a few days a year at the target range. Typically, when he’s running low on ammo, he swings by a local sporting-goods store and buys what he needs, or he orders online.

But like thousands of other hunters and target shooters in California, Ball has been stocking up in advance of a host of new state gun laws, set to take effect this year and next, that include ammunition regulations that are among the most stringent in the nation.

“I’ve definitely been picking up a little more than I typically would,” Ball said. “I do worry about – not so much about supply but prices. The fact California has these extra rules in place, what’s that going to be like?”

California lawmakers and voters passed a slew of gun control laws in 2016 that impose significant new restrictions on the state’s more than 6 million firearms owners. The new regulations, which take effect in stages over the next two years, affect a broad range of practices, from where you buy your ammunition to how you store your guns and who can borrow them.

Several of the new laws specifically target ammunition purchases. Among the changes coming as of January 2018: Californians who want to buy ammunition online or through catalogs will have to ship their purchases through a licensed dealer. And for the first time, state residents will have to undergo a background check when buying ammunition.

Although the restrictions on ammunition purchases don’t take effect for another year, retailers say gun owners have been buying more ammo amid uncertainty and confusion over the new laws.

“We’re selling a lot more ammunition right now,” said Patrick Jones, owner of Jones’ Fort gun store in Redding. “And we will continue to do so up until the time the registration kicks in.”

It’s not unusual to see spikes in gun and ammunition sales almost any time a new gun law is proposed – let alone passed – at the state or federal level. But law enforcement officials, retailers and other experts on firearms policy say, in the case of California’s new regulations, the fears that gun enthusiasts have about rising prices and limited availability of some types of ammunition likely are well-founded.

A major concern is that the new regulations, intended to keep ammunition out of the hands of felons and other dangerous people, will particularly disrupt life for rural hunters and shooters who have limited local options for shopping.

“There are some definite things in there that concern me – the difficulty that it’s going to create for legitimate sportsmen and sportswomen … completely legal people trying to buy ammo to try to do a legal thing,” said David Bess, chief of enforcement at the Department of Fish and Wildlife. The game wardens Bess oversees enforce state hunting and gun laws and are among the law enforcement officers most likely to encounter hunters and target shooters in the field.

Under the existing rules, anyone age 18 or older (21 or older for handguns) can buy ammunition without a background check, and sellers need no special training or license. The new laws mandate that by Jan. 1, 2018, all ammunition in California must be purchased in person through a vendor licensed by the Department of Justice. Starting that date, online orders of ammunition also must be processed through one of these vendors.

With limited exceptions, people will be barred from giving away ammunition without going through a vendor, and people won’t be able to legally import ammunition purchased out of state, unless it’s shipped to a licensed California dealer. Violators can face misdemeanor charges.

Starting July 2019, another layer of oversight kicks in: Anyone buying ammunition from a vendor will be required to undergo background screening via a state system.

The idea behind the new system is to make it more difficult for felons and others who can’t pass a background check to get ammunition – with the hope that lives will be saved. “It just makes it a little bit harder for those people to have ammunition,” said Adam Winkler, a professor at UCLA School of Law who writes about Second Amendment issues.

But adding to the confusion for law-abiding gun owners, there are two conflicting background check requirements that the courts may need to sort out.

Under legislation signed by Gov. Jerry Brown last summer, Californians buying ammunition would need to pass an in-store background check, which involves vendors running information through a Department of Justice database to see if they are prohibited from owning guns. The buyer would pay a fee of up to $1 with each transaction, an amount that can rise with inflation.

Proposition 63, the ballot initiative voters approved in November, sets out a different system. People interested in buying ammunition would have to purchase a four-year permit from the Department of Justice. The state could charge up to $50 for the ammo license. Retailers would be required to check with the department to ensure customers have a valid permit.

It’s not clear which of the provisions will win out. Typically, ballot measures override legislation, but the Legislature passed a bill prior to the November election that attempted to supersede Proposition 63’s licensing requirements.

A court is likely to decide which background check process becomes law, said Fredric Woocher, a Los Angeles attorney who served as special counsel to former California Attorney General John Van de Kamp.

“Courts have starkly been called on to make a make a lot of difficult decisions,” Woocher said. “And this one is probably not going to be that different.”

A spokesman for Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom, who pushed the ballot initiative, declined to comment.

Whichever system is implemented, experts say the new requirements are almost certainly going to cause ammunition prices to spike in California. Aside from government fees, vendors are expected to tack on additional charges to make up for the costs associated with the licensing requirement and background checks. Many also will charge a fee to process ammunition transactions from online or out of state.

Some gun owners are fearful that shortages could follow if major retailers, such as Walmart, opt to avoid the hassle and stop selling ammunition in California.

Something similar played out in 2003, when the giant retailer stopped selling firearms in California, citing problems complying with the state’s rigorous background check requirements. Walmart continued to sell ammunition at discounted prices in its sporting-goods aisle – often prompting competitors to lower their prices.

Walmart spokesman Charles Crowson said the company is reviewing the new ammunition laws and has not yet decided how it will respond.

In far-flung small towns, it’s not uncommon for hardware stores and small sporting-goods stores that don’t sell guns to sell ammunition. The worry is that some of those stores will decide they can’t afford to do that anymore. That could cause problems for rural hunters and gun owners, who would find themselves having to drive long distances to find a licensed vendor, said Bess, the game warden chief.

“It definitely makes it difficult for a guy or gal up, say, in the Susanville area, or Alturas, or someplace remote like that to get to a big-box store, and then especially if your big-box store is in Reno and you’ve got to cross the state line,” he said.

Under the new laws, buying ammo at a Reno big-box store also becomes more complicated. As of 2018, out-of-state ammunition purchases have to be shipped to an in-state vendor – meaning gun owners can’t just load up their pickup or ship a box directly to their home.

So will law enforcement officers be conducting border checks to catch out-of-state ammunition buyers? So far, no state agency has announced plans to start screening people at border checkpoints. Brenda Gonzalez, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Justice, declined to comment for this story.

More broadly, Bess said it’s also going to be difficult for his wardens to enforce in-state ammo purchase requirements in the field. The reason? There’s no easy way to track ammunition after it’s been purchased. Unlike a gun, which has a serial number, ammunition is almost untraceable.

Amid all the uncertainty, Bess said he understands why Californian gun owners are stocking up. He’s been doing it, too.

“I was just over at a place the other day, and I was in there with my boys,” he said. “I saw some (ammunition I needed), and I said, ‘Hey, grab as much of that stuff as they’ll allow us to buy.’ ”



Gun shop owner defends security barriers

Rocklin gun shop owner Rob Adams says concrete barriers in front of his store are a security measure to prevent smash-and-grab robberies.
Cathy Locke The Sacramento Bee
 
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Our Capitol Alert newsletter has updates on what’s new at California’s Capitol. Sign up here.

The Bee’s Phillip Reese contributed to this report.

Ryan Sabalow: 916-321-1264, @ryansabalow

Dates California gun laws take effect

Between state legislation and voter-approved ballot initiatives, 2016 saw passage of sweeping new gun regulations in California. Some of the new rules take effect in 2017. Others are staggered over the next two years. Here’s your guide to California’s new era of gun ownership.

Theft/loss reporting

When it becomes a crime to falsely report a firearm has been lost or stolen
   

Jan. 1

Start date for requirement that theft or loss of a firearm must be reported to law enforcement within five days
   

July 1

Lending firearms

When it becomes illegal, with limited exceptions, to loan guns to anyone outside of immediate family members
   

Jan. 1

Large-capacity magazine restrictions

When it becomes illegal, with limited exceptions, to possess magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds
   

July 1

Assault weapon restrictions

Start date for the new definition of “assault weapon”
   

Jan. 1

Deadline to register a newly designated assault weapon with the state
   

Dec. 31, 2017

Restrictions on home-built “ghost guns” and guns without serial numbers

Start date for requirement that you get state permission before manufacturing or assembling a firearm
   

July 1, 2018

Deadline to place a serial number on any unmarked firearm possessed after July 1, 2018
   

Dec. 31, 2018

Ammunition restrictions

Start date for requirement that ammunition sales or transfers be conducted through a licensed ammunition vendor
   

Jan. 1, 2018

When you no longer can import ammunition bought outside the state without first shipping it to a licensed vendor
   

Jan. 1, 2018

Start date for requirement that Californians undergo background checks to buy ammunition
   

July 1, 2019

Handgun storage law

Start date for requirement that handguns be stored in a locked container or locked trunk when left in an unattended vehicle
   

Jan. 1

Sources: Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, Legislative Analyst’s Office, California legal codes.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article124089319.html#storylink=cpy
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2017, 04:20:38 PM »
People are buying guns and ammo as tangible assets, just like gold or food preps. It's a way to beat inflation, if nothing else.

.22 shells seem to be widely available again, after a few years of being hard to find. All ammo is selling for multiples of what I paid for most of mine. I shoulda bought more. I still do always grab a few boxes when I hit Cabelas.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2017, 04:44:17 PM »
For anyone considering an all around good rifle, I'd consider this Savage .308, rather than the AR-15 clones that are so popular. Just me.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/DgeNtkszYbw&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/DgeNtkszYbw&fs=1</a>



What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online azozeo

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2017, 04:45:40 PM »
For anyone considering an all around good rifle, I'd consider this Savage .308, rather than the AR-15 clones that are so popular. Just me.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/DgeNtkszYbw&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/DgeNtkszYbw&fs=1</a>

Very nice piece of equipment...

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo --- Brandon Smith Goes Ballistic
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2017, 10:02:53 AM »
Brandon is starting a new utoob channel that will teach you how to be a paramiltary badass.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/r0PRwEeP_YY&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/r0PRwEeP_YY&fs=1</a>

Update: I wanted to just say, to those who tend to misinterpret my position around here, that I am not suggesting that becoming a paramilitary badass is  a desirable thing. Not at all. Brandon is just taking it up a notch, from his usual rhetoric. I found it interesting.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 07:55:48 PM by Eddie »
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Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 04:05:40 PM »
I like the concept. Synthetic stock is very practical. I class firearms as tools, so practicality is my #1 consideration. Just like you see a difference in trade tools (Made to last) over enthusiast tools (Made to look good) and then bargain basement tools (Cheap), you see the same in firearms. Better to get mechanics right and not worry too much about looks. Ex-military is usually well represented on my list. May not be best quality but usually reliable. Always best to go for functionality over looks. (That is what my wife tells me about marrying me...Not quite sure what she means.)

308 is pretty powerful, depending on loading. We had plenty of demonstrations in the Army of 7.62 Nato (pretty well the same round) going through 250m diameter trees and sandbags pretty easily. (Aust army since gone to 5.56 in 1989. Shows my age!). We also had night firing demos out to 3000m, (Yes that right, 3km or about 2 miles), which is a bloody long way to be able to tell what you are shooting at, meaning you have to be careful not to shoot the neighbours by mistake! We also saw tracer rounds coming 180 degrees directly back at the gun 100m after hitting rocks, trees etc. That was the eye opener! Ricochets. May not be such a problem with hunting rounds compared to FMJ, I dont know.

308 has good balistics and can usually out range 99% of shooters ability. I achieved a 50mm group at 300m out of an SLR, but that is about extreme ranges for most shooting I would think. I am a little rusty now. I think I would struggle to get 50mm group at 100m, but that is enough for 90% of hunting unless you are in very open country.

I too don't think much of the modern military look. KISS works for me. I am not even a big fan of a scope. If you can shoot you can get good groups out to 300m without a scope, and one more thing to go wrong/ break/ go out of alignment. Prefer bolt actions. ( Heavy restrictions on semi-autos here now anyway). Usually means you hit the target with one or two shots rather than blast away the whole mag, speaking from experience!

Always thought better off with smaller rounds for cost and storage considerations unless you are shooting elephants. .22 WMR is good short range rifle. Rimfire, low cost and good out to 100m for accuracy. Quieter too and no kick, unlike 308. People need to learn how to place shots, then you dont need a fucking cannon! Plenty of stories of big game hunters taking lions and elephants with 7mm x 57 (Mauser). A round known for accuracy and little recoil. We don't have bear in Oz unlike you guys. Koalas are marsupials and don't attack despite what we tell Japanese tourists!.. You probably wont have many bear soon either the way things are going!

We don't have huge gun culture here in Oz, and weapons are available but a little more restricted. Really only enthusiasts and farmers have them. A lot of people have old antiques such as ex-military Enfields, Mausers and the likes if they own any firearms, rimfires and 12g shotguns are popular as most of our hunting is vermin and ducks etc. A bit of Deer around in high country but not many people hunt this.

Lack of firearms in the community except for mostly responsible enthusiasts and farmers will be a huge plus when SHTF. The less idiots with military weapons around the better as far as I am concerned!

I will regularly contribute to this thread. I was an enthusiast, and want to get back into target shooting and vermin control now I am getting older and have more spare time. I have shot a lot of different calibers and weapons over the years, including military stuff in my younger years. 7.62 and 5.56 GPMGM60, M16/ M203, SLR, 9mm Browning, Minimi, and a few civilian rifles in 308, 7x57, 22LR and WMR, 303, 310, 45-70 and a bit of black powder muzzle loaders. Oh, and of course a Daisy red rider BB gun!  ;D

JOW

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 05:02:41 PM »
Somebody once posted an article here that said the "average" American gun collector has 17 firearms. I counted mine and was relieved to find I that was myself an average collector, and not a crazy gun nut.

I am skewed toward the NATO rounds for availability and barter usefulness. I have a couple of different Ruger Mini-14's, one standard and one accurized by Clark, in the .223 caliber. My favorite iron for actual hunting is still my Nazi Mauser, redone in .308, with a Shilen barrel and a Timney trigger. Ain't much to look at, but....

I have a couple of Marlin Guide 1895 saddle guns in .45/70. Poor man's .50 caliber. I don't own one of those Jeff Cooper style Scout Rifles, but I like them and the Savage is way cheaper here than the Ruger one. Looks like a good gun, but 17 is my limit.

I also put together custom .22's based on the Ruger 10-.22 platform. Lots of fun. Lots of great barrels and mods and stocks and stuff available here.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 05:31:27 PM »
Took a pic of three I put together. The one with the black synthetic stock is .22 mag. I keep a lot of that ammo. I like a light weapon, and the .22mag is extremely accurate and easy to shoot.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 05:46:56 PM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 12:27:18 AM »
Something is wrong.Twice I have posted 500 word replies and both have gone missing.

Offline RE

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2017, 01:28:18 AM »
Something is wrong.Twice I have posted 500 word replies and both have gone missing.

Make sure you compose your replies first in a text editor, then paste to the upload box from there.  Have a copy on your own computer before you hit the "Post" button.  Check to be sure it is properly recorded on the Diner before you delete your copy.

Don't feel too bad, I've lost a lot more than 500 words on several occassions I didn't take my own advice.

RE
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Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2017, 01:58:22 AM »
3rd time lucky!.
I agree ex-military calibers will be in abundance so good idea to stockpile for barter reasons.

In Oz that really means .303 British. We must have a million Lee Enfields floating around as well as a few Mausers and Nagants. .303 is very close to .308 balistically anyway, just old Enfield actions are not so strong so have to load light. You have the right idea K98 actions I am told are pretty strong..22 LR and .22WMR are around in numbers as is 12G shotguns so they would make best rounds to stockpile if you want to barter here. That the trouble with too many calibers!

If we are specifically talking about best firearms for after TSHTF scenarios I have a few ideas.

Your idea of small, light and accurate is good. A .22 or .22 WMR is cheap to buy, cheap to fire and will put food on the table. Your synthetic stock model looks good. I prefer open sights for close range shooting out to say 100m. I only ever had one scope and that was on an air rifle!

A larger caliber military rifle for hunting in .308 or .303 would be good, as would something in 5.56. I have fired a Mini 14 back in the 80’s and i was fun. 5.56 with good shot placement should be ok for hunting most game I would think. It is a nice flat shooter out to 300m or so and is usually quite accurate and less kick.. Like the military, I am in favour of reduced size, weight and cost of amo and carry/ hold more. I have a bit of an orphan. Spanish 93 Mauser in 7x57. Amo a bit rarer, but can still get. Brass is not readily available so I buy factory and reload once used. Seemsto be a lot of lever action 30-30s over here. Probably a lot everywhere... Might be a good round to stock. I used to have a #5 Enfield jungle carbine for hunting. Getting rare now, as is most older original Enfields and Mausers over here. Can get sporterised examples pretty cheap. Should probably add a .303 to my EOTWAWKI shopping list.

A must have is a 12g. Most versatile firearm around. From #10 quail shot to #4 rabbits, #00 for roos and even solids for pigs and even deer this is an all rounder. I have a bolt action Mosberg with a 30” barrel I think. (Its long!. I will have to measure it now I said that). Everyone laughs at it, but it is a gem. Shoots like a rifle out to 100m on full choke and 00 shot, and is super reliable. Should get a reloading press for this I think. Another addition to my list.

Pistols are useless. Hollywood and wankers will argue. They are inaccurate and low powered for hunting and over about 25m in real situations it would be better to throw the gun at the target. Restricted availabilty here so not many about so no use stocking up on pistol amo. Much better to have another .22 rifle or 12G.

Black powder. Here is where it gets interesting. I “Borrowed” for quite a few years an uncles CVA .50cal Hawken rifle. I loved it! Once the smoke cleared and you could see the target I was surprised how accurate it was. Powder and caps are pretty well interchangable between any muzzle loader and projectiles can be cast easily. There is plenty of lead around in old car batteries and roof flashing so should be able to make something for many years to come. With a bit of basic chemistry you should be able to make your own powder. Hmm, I will add one to my list as well....

Probably one of the other must haves would be an air rifle. Slugs are cheap and they are easy to stockpile. Break action or pump up are the way to go. CO2 cylinders will run out hen economy tanks, so better to avoid. There are some interesting big bore hunting air rifles around to. Muscle power to pump up never runs out, unlike powder, primers and brass. Had a Crossman 2100 BB gun growing up. Must have shot 1000 pigeons with this in my fathers storage sheds. Have taken quite a few rabbits with a .22 break open Anshultz as well.

That will do.

Oh, and 17 guns does make you a gun nut!

JOW

Offline knarf

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2017, 05:07:34 AM »
I know this is not a post about gun collecting but I too have had experience with many types of guns. My Dad had a double barrel shotgun, I used it often to go dove hunting. Kick? YES. :) He had a 22 rifle, that I could hit a can at 100 yards ( no scoop ). We were hunting one day for deer, and I was about 10, and for fun I just shot a squirrel and killed it. My Dad asked "Do you get some kind of kick out of doing that?" I felt ashamed that I was so disconnected with the squirrel's life. He also had a 30-06 deer rifle. It kicked pretty hard but not as hard as the shotgun. A deer came running towards me one time and he was only 25 yrds away, I shot at it and missed!

  One day after that my older brother asked me if I wanted to go deer hunting, so I went. They were all drinking Bourbon at 6am, and I had to take a swig too. Then we saw a Porcupine in a tree on way back to the car, and my brother tells me to shoot it. I say no, he says do it. So I did and killed it. Then I dragged it 300 yrds up an incline to take home and eat. They all laughed at me, and threw the Porcupine off the road back into the forest.

Not a very "fun" hunting trip for me.

  When I was married I borrowed a shotgun and bought slugs to go dear hunting. Right as dawn broke I saw a doe ( had doe tags) about 150 yrds away. So I just took a shot not expecting a hit, but the deer fell straight down. Hit it in the heart.

  Now, all we keep is a 22 rifles, for varmints, and occasional deer that comes close. We use to kill the hogs with it and immediately cut the neck wide open, same with the goats. We butcher them here.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 06:02:07 AM »
I have a bolt action Mosberg with a 30” barrel I think. (Its long!. I will have to measure it now I said that). Everyone laughs at it, but it is a gem. Shoots like a rifle out to 100m on full choke and 00 shot, and is super reliable

Duck gun.

I don't own a shotgun, but I have looked at 12 ga shotguns as a potential prep. I have the air rifle now, a good single pump spring gun in .177 caliber. I think it shoots something like 1320 fps. Pellets are cheaper than bullets and I try to grab a couple tins of those when I hit Cabelas too.

I never took the time to master the intricacies of black powder, but I had a good friend, now deceased, who played with those guns  the way I play with .22's. It might be very wise to get some training there. I did spend some time reviewing how to make black powder, but I haven't done it, ever. I don't reload myself, but my brother does.. He's more of a hunter and a fisherman than I am.

We were hunting one day for deer, and I was about 10, and for fun I just shot a squirrel and killed it. My Dad asked "Do you get some kind of kick out of doing that?" I felt ashamed that I was so disconnected with the squirrel's life.

You had a good father, who taught you an important lesson.

One day after that my older brother asked me if I wanted to go deer hunting, so I went. They were all drinking Bourbon at 6am, and I had to take a swig too. Then we saw a Porcupine in a tree on way back to the car, and my brother tells me to shoot it. I say no, he says do it. So I did and killed it. Then I dragged it 300 yrds up an incline to take home and eat. They all laughed at me, and threw the Porcupine off the road back into the forest.

Not a very "fun" hunting trip for me.


I have had a similar experiences with going hunting with good ole' boys who have no morals or ethics around killing the innocents. They didn't get the lesson your father taught you. Or maybe it's that thing where people act differently when they're in a group of males they want to impress.

Good point about using the .22 to kill the animal you need to butcher. It's how I would do it. More Humane than just about any other way I can think of. Where did you place the bullet on your pigs?

I have an old single cam compound bow too, and I am stocking up slowly on points. I have lots of arrows. Points are expensive.





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Offline Eddie

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 06:04:35 AM »
The air gun would have made 18, but air guns don't count.
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Offline knarf

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Re: Gunz & Ammo
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 09:28:21 AM »
Eddie asks " Where did you place the bullet on your pigs?"

You imagine a line from the left ear to right eye, and from the right ear to the left eye. Where they intersect is the spot. Bulls eye, they drop like a rock.
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