AuthorTopic: Plutocracy  (Read 15722 times)

Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2017, 02:17:56 PM »
Coen (not Cohen) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coen_brothers_filmography

An easy mistake.
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2017, 02:40:17 PM »
If you read through the articles, you'll see that many family farms were foreclosed on and stolen by the banks, and much food was purposely destroyed and not given to the poor. 

Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath.   a great book.

Steinbeck chronicled the Death by Starvation in the Killing Fields of California.  It was a purposeful massacre of the poor of the FSoA by the Elite, led by FDR to gain ownership over the farms by the capitalist class.  He killed more people than Stalin.

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A purposeful massacre of the poor of the FSoA by the Elite

Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline agelbert

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2017, 02:57:19 PM »
The challenges of an observant person in a "Capitalism is good" brainwashed society.


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Offline RE

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2017, 03:31:29 PM »
Milk Dumping was ordered by FDR to starve as many poor children as possible


Hunger Marches were ignored by FDR...


...while he ate fine meals and drank fine wines while laughing about it with his fellow Pigmen


FDR ordered Macarthur and Patton to burn down the Bonus Army encampment and refused to pay them for their service in WWI


FDR embargoed Japan to starve them out


and knew IN ADVANCE the Japanese would bomb Pearl Harbor


That was a real knee slapper over dinner on Dec 7th 1941!


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Offline Eddie

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2017, 03:32:42 PM »

It's a strawman argument. Nobody ENGINEERED the famine in the US. It was caused by a completely different set of circumstances than the one in Ukraine

Yes, it was engineered here, and no it was not a "completely different set of circumstance".

Don't you find it to be a rather weird coinkidink that the Holodomor happened in EXACTLY the same years as the peak of the GreaT Depression in the FSoA?  Stalin had the same problems FDR did.  They approached it the same way.

If you read through the articles, you'll see that many family farms were foreclosed on and stolen by the banks, and much food was purposely destroyed and not given to the poor.  FDR OKed that and purposely killed millions of people, just as Uncle Joe did.  The Bonus Army was massacred by Patton and MacArthur.

The history of "scholars" is merely written to paint Uncle Joe as a Bad Guy and FDR as a Good Guy.

You're buying propaganda here.

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And you're full of shit. You want to paint things with a brush that is way too broad.

American farmers went into debt. They weren't forced to do that. It was a choice they made, and they lost their ass. Roosevelt didn't sanction it. It was an example of the typical banking Ponzi collapse, sure, but Roosevelt (who was a total asshole, fwiw) wasn't responsible. Hoover takes more share of the blame than Roosevelt. That and a little thing called the Dust Bowl. Which had a lot to do with industrial agriculture. the Dust Bowl wouldn't have happened with sustainable practice.

One one side (America) you have a collapse, much like the one we're having here now, but worse. In Russia, people were being herded into collectives like FEMA camps. They were being shot if they complained. Not that similar, in my book.


Nothing like this happened in the USA:

A campaign of political repression, including arrests, deportations, and executions of better-off peasants and their families occurred from 1929 to 1932. The richer peasants were labeled kulaks and considered class enemies. More than 1.8 million peasants were deported in 1930–1931.[8][9][10] The stated purpose of the campaign was to fight the counter-revolution and build socialism in the countryside. This policy was accomplished simultaneously with collectivization in the Soviet Union and effectively brought all agriculture in the Soviet Union under state control.

The "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" was announced by Stalin on December 27, 1929.[8] The decision was formalized in a resolution, "On measures for the elimination of kulak households in districts of comprehensive collectivization", on January 30, 1930. The kulaks were divided into three categories: those to be shot or imprisoned as decided by the local secret political police; those to be sent to Siberia, North, the Urals, or Kazakhstan, after confiscation of their property; and those to be evicted from their houses and used in labour colonies within their own districts.[8]

The combination of the elimination of kulaks, collectivization, and other repressive policies contributed to mass starvation in many parts of the Soviet Ukraine and the death of at least 7 to 10 million peasants in 1930–1937.[8]

Requisition quotas[edit]
Sources such as Encyclopædia Britannica say there was no physical basis for famine in Ukraine, and that Soviet authorities set quotas for Ukraine at exceedingly high levels. The famine was caused by the food requisition actions carried out by the Soviet authorities.[11] The government plans for central grain collection in Ukraine were lowered by 18.1% relative to the 1931 plan. Collective farms were expected to return 132,750 tons of grain, the amount that had been provided in spring 1932 as aid. The grain collection plan for July 1932 was adopted to collect 19.5 million poods. The actual state of collection was disastrous, and by July 31 only 3 million poods (compared to 21 million in 1931) were collected. The total amount of grain collected by February 5, 1933 was only 255 million poods (compared to 440 million poods in 1931).


Komsomol members seize "grain hidden by kulaks."
In 1930 the Ukraine provided 27% of the Soviet harvest but 38% of the deliveries. In 1931 it made 42% of deliveries. The Ukrainian harvest fell from 23.9 million tons to 18.3 but the same quota, 7.7 million tons, was demanded, 7 million was collected. 7.7 was again demanded in 1932, reduced to 6.6, only 4.7 was collected.[12]

Criminalised gleaning[edit]
Gleaning is the act of collecting leftover crops from farmers' fields after they have been commercially harvested or from fields where it is not economically profitable to harvest. Some ancient cultures promoted gleaning as an early form of a welfare system. In the Soviet Union, people who gleaned and distributed food brought themselves under legal risk. The Law of Spikelets criminalised gleaning under penalty of death, or ten years of forced labour in exceptional circumstances.

Some sources claim there were several legislative acts adopted in order to force starvation in the Ukrainian SSR. On August 7, 1932, the Soviet government passed a law, "On the Safekeeping of Socialist Property",[13] that imposed penalties starting at a ten-year prison sentence and up to the death penalty for any theft of socialist property.[14][15][16] Stalin personally appended the stipulation: "People who encroach on socialist property should be considered enemies of the people."[citation needed] Within the first five months of passage of the law, 54,645 individuals had been imprisoned under it, and 2,110 sentenced to death. The initial wording of the decree, "On fought with speculation”, adopted August 22, 1932, led to common situations where minor acts such as bartering tobacco for bread were documented as punished by 5 years imprisonment. After 1934, by NKVD demand, the penalty for minor offenses was limited to a fine of 500 rubles or three months of correctional labor.[17]

The scope of this law, colloquially dubbed the "law of the wheat ears",[13] included even the smallest appropriation of grain by peasants for personal use. A little over a month later, the law was revised, as Politburo protocols revealed that secret decisions had later modified the original decree of September 16, 1932. The Politburo approved a measure that specifically exempted small-scale theft of socialist property from the death penalty, declaring that "organizations and groupings destroying state, social, and co-operate property in an organized manner by fires, explosions and mass destruction of property shall be sentenced to execution without trial", and listed a number of cases in which "kulaks, former traders, and other socially-alien persons" would be subject to the death penalty. "Working individual peasants and collective farmers" who stole kolkhoz property and grain would be sentenced to ten years; the death penalty would be imposed only for "systematic theft of grain, sugar beets, animals, etc."[18]

Soviet expectations for the 1932 grain crop were high because of Ukraine's bumper crop the previous year, which Soviet authorities believed were sustainable. When it became clear that the 1932 grain deliveries were not going to meet the expectations of the government, the decreased agricultural output was first blamed on the kulaks, and later on agents and spies of foreign intelligence services, "nationalists", "Petlurovites", and from 1937 on, Trotskyists. According to a report from the head of the Supreme Court, by January 15, 1933 as many as 103,000 people (more than 14 thousand in the Ukrainian SSR) had been sentenced under the provisions of the August 7 decree. Of the 79,000 whose sentences were known to the Supreme Court, 4,880 had been sentenced to death, 26,086 to ten years of imprisonment, and 48,094 to other punishments.[18]

On November 8, Molotov and Stalin issued an order stating, "from today the dispatch of goods for the villages of all regions of Ukraine shall cease until kolkhozy and individual peasants begin to honestly and conscientiously fulfill their duty to the working class and the Red Army by delivering grain."[19]

On November 24, the Politburo ordered that all those sentenced to confinement of three years or more in Ukraine be deported to labor camps. It also simplified procedures for confirming death sentences in Ukraine. The Politburo also dispatched Balytsky to Ukraine for six months with the full powers of the OGPU.[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor

The Bonus Marchers made the mistake (much like Occupy did) of direct confrontation with TPTB. The parallels there are plain to see.

The Bonus Marchers were patsies too, encouraged to do what they did by politicians, like Wright Patman from Texas, who saw the bonus as way to gain political advantage. Promising something for nothing has always been popular with politicians.

But what Stalin did, and what Roosevelt did, are not remotely equivalent, and I won't allow you to twist history to prove your point.











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Offline RE

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2017, 03:50:26 PM »
FDR was in bed with the Banksters.  The Roosevelt family fortune depended on the banks, and the bad loans made to the farmers were just like the subprime lending done prior to the 2008 crash.  They knew they would foreclose and push the farmers off the land.

Kermit Roosevelt got the CIA going to further the interests of the Roosevelt family in Oil and Banking.  Once they finished stealing from the locals and killing them off, they went overseas to keep on with it.

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Offline Ka

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2017, 04:06:36 PM »
The Bonus Army massacre (if you regard two dead as a massacre) was in summer of '32, under Hoover, not FDR. But I generally agree that FDR's social programs for the poor was to buy them off from overthrowing elite rule.

Offline RE

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2017, 04:27:03 PM »
The Bonus Army massacre (if you regard two dead as a massacre) was in summer of '32, under Hoover, not FDR. But I generally agree that FDR's social programs for the poor was to buy them off from overthrowing elite rule.

OK, that's true but FDR still didn't pay them their Bonuses when he took office.

The main thing here is that in all the history books Roosevelt is painted as a saint, which he was not. Churchill was no saint either. Stalin is painted as the Devil, which he was not.  Hitler is painted as the Devil, which he probably was.

All of these guys were trying to solve the problem the Great Depression brought to their countries, in quite similar ways really by consolidating the power of the Elite and then eventually going to war with each other.

As victors in the war, the FSoA and the Brits got to write the history books.  Because the post war scenario set up a battle with Communism, Stalin got absolutely hammered.  He wasn't a great guy, but unlike Give em Hell Harry Truman, he didn't drop an Atomic Bomb on anybody.  Unlike LBJ he didn't send troops out of his country to build an Empire.

To say the FSoA doesn't have a Gulag as big as Stalin had is also absurd.  The FSoA Prison system is by far the largest Gulag in all of recorded history.

John Steinbeck's journalism and his fiction both attest to the starvation that went on during the Great Depression, as do the photoraphs of Dorothea Lange.  This was a Global Problem of a crash of the banking system.  The social programs FDR put in place made him popular and papered over the problem some, but didn't solve it.  What solved it was the massive outflow of credit to fight WWII.  Which FDR was fully responsible for the the embargo of Japan.

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Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2017, 04:28:04 PM »
Milk Dumping was ordered by FDR to starve as many poor children as possible

Have you got any documentation for that?

That sounds like complete fabrication to me.  I need to see evidence!

What did happen is this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Wisconsin_milk_strike
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2017, 04:46:33 PM »
Why was a massive amount of food dumped to rot during the Great Depression?


Quote
By 1933 statistics revealed that at least 25 percent of the labor force was unemployed—13 to 15 million individuals. It was estimated that those unemployed were responsible for feeding approximately 30 million hungry family members. As the situation worsened, a paradox arose in America. While the destitute ate their meals at garbage cans, American farmers still produced surpluses of crops and livestock.

Farmers, however, were not completely unaffected. They suffered as prices for their goods fell drastically low due to consumers' inability to pay for the goods they demanded. The market for farmers' goods shrunk, but farming production did not. Additionally, no efficient structure existed to get surpluses into the hands of charitable organizations and local government agencies.

In California the hungry saw food being destroyed all around them. In 1932, in the Imperial Valley alone, 2.8 million watermelons, 1.4 million crates of cantaloupes, and 700,000 lugs of tomatoes were destroyed because they could not be sold. In Orange County, huge mounds of oranges were covered with thick oil to stop pilfering. The fruit rotted in full view of people who needed them.


http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/uhic/ReferenceDetailsPage/ReferenceDetailsWindow?failOverType=&query=&prodId=UHIC&windowstate=normal&contentModules=&display-query=&mode=view&displayGroupName=Reference&limiter=&currPage=&disableHighlighting=false&displayGroups=&sortBy=&search_within_results=&p=UHIC%3AWHIC&action=e&catId=&activityType=&scanId=&documentId=GALE%7CCX3424800041&source=Bookmark&u=nysl_se_tvssl&jsid=15ecbf4315593c8f3cca85803a8e6919

My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2017, 04:53:02 PM »
Stalin is painted as the Devil, which he was not.


You're going to need to do a lot of distorting of history to paint Stalin as a swell fellow.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2017, 04:56:19 PM »
Milk Dumping was ordered by FDR to starve as many poor children as possible

Have you got any documentation for that?

You'll NEVER find documentation of that.  The FSoA won the war, the Elite fund the Universities which train the professors who teach the history.  you have to look at what REALLY happened.

The destruction of food and milk is well documented, and this HAD to be policy of Da Goobermint.  FDR easily could have signed an Executive Order to prevent it, and put large penalties on anyone who did it.  But he did not.  If only by refusing to act on this problem, he was tacitly approving it.

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Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2017, 05:00:29 PM »
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The mood at kitchen tables in California in the early 1930s was as bleak as it was elsewhere in the United States. Factories were closed. More than a quarter of the breadwinners in the state were out of work. There were no federal or state relief programs, nothing but some local charity—in Los Angeles County, a familyof four got about 50 cents a day, and only one in 10 got even that.

Not long before, America had been a farming nation. When times were tough, there was still the land. But the country was becoming increasingly urban. People were dependent on this thing called “the economy” and the financial casino to which it was yoked. When the casino crashed, there was no fallback, just destitution. Except for one thing: The real economy was still there — paralyzed but still there. Farmers still were producing, more than they could sell. Fruit rotted on trees, vegetables in the fields. In January 1933, dairymen poured more than 12,000 gallons of milk into the Los Angeles City sewers every day.

The factories were there too. Machinery was idle. Old trucks were in side lots, needing only a little repair. All that capacity on the one hand, legions of idle men and women on the other. It was the financial casino that had failed, not the workers and machines. On street corners and around bare kitchen tables, people started to put two and two together. More precisely, they thought about new ways of putting two and two together.

>>> continued >>>  http://jonathanrowe.org/money-cooperative-economy-in-the-great-depression
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2017, 05:15:37 PM »
The destruction of food and milk is well documented, and this HAD to be policy of Da Goobermint.  FDR easily could have signed an Executive Order to prevent it, and put large penalties on anyone who did it.  But he did not.  If only by refusing to act on this problem, he was tacitly approving it.

During some of the years of the Great Depression the price of food products fell through the floor because not enough people could afford to pay for it and yet producers did what they always tried to do: produce.  A lot of the time they really had no choice.  Fruit trees and milk cows do what they do. If you don't mil the cow you've got problems. If you don't pick the fruit you've got problems (disease, pests)....

Yeah, people were going hungry.  Perhaps the farmer should have allowed the hungry and unemployed to pick more of the fruit and milk the cows? Or maybe some other strategy could have been designed? I don't know.  But the farmers were going to lose their farms if they didn't have money for the bankers, right?  Was FDR supposed to float ALL of the farmers ... or bail out the banker?  With what money?  Should he have just printed up some money to hand out to the farmers? How would that have fared?
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Plutocracy
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2017, 05:17:49 PM »
Stalin is painted as the Devil, which he was not.


You're going to need to do a lot of distorting of history to paint Stalin as a swell fellow.

I never said Uncle Joe was a nice guy.  Just that he was no worse or better than FDR or Churchill, both members of the elite class of their societies in their time, much as The Donald is today.

Many died under the regime of Uncle Joe, but many died here in the FSoA and Britain and Germany too during this time.  In Germany, it was probably worst of all during the Weimar era even before Nazism took over.

You don't tend to get really nice Loving, Caring, Affectionate people running the show in times of trouble.  You get ruthless ones, and all these guys were ruthless in their own way.

The most ruthless was Uncle Adolf, he was explicit in how he got rid of Useless Eaters. Gas Chambers & Ovens.  Uncle Joe did his means politically, rounding people up and sending them to the Gulag.  FDR did it economically, foreclosing on farmers and sending them to the Killing Fields of California, explained in detail in the Journalism and Fiction of John Steinbeck and the photographs of Dorothea Lange


Adolf got whacked  by the other 3, fortunately.  Took a LOT of VIOLENCE to get that job done though, and a LOT of Dead People.

I make no case that Uncle Joe was a "nice guy".  He was not.  But I do not think he was all that much worse than FDR or Churchill.

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