AuthorTopic: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom  (Read 18365 times)

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2017, 09:50:20 PM »


Beliefs are thoughts, which undeniably exist but have no substance.  A thought once generated is Eternal.  So there is no doubt we are all Eternal Beings, since we all had thoughts.  Well, most of us anyhow. lol.

RE

Actually, a thought does have substance.  It is composed of energy. 

However, once the body dies, I believe, we can continue to experience thoughts of another substance that is likely not able to be scientifically viewed, and therefore not proven. 

However, the thoughts that we experience via the brain most definitely have substance.  The closest science has "proven" is that a thought is an electrical impulse in a neuron.  However the mind is not a tool of the brain.  The mind, which is where thought comes from, is something other than corporeal.  The brain is a tool of the mind.  The mind can engage reality, and mold it, which is consequently what "magic" is about, in the occult version.  That is why the Buddha said something along the lines of  "the mind is everything, what you think you become."  At least that's what a coffee mug I have says he said :laugh:

Either way, it's true. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:52:01 PM by luciddreams »

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2017, 09:57:42 PM »
Actually, a thought does have substance.  It is composed of energy.

Thoughts have no energy that is measurable.  The brain uses energy to generate thoughts, chemical and electrical energy there, but the thought itself has no energy that can be measured in any way.  There is no loos in a thought when it is transferred from one person to another, whereas any energy transfer always has a loss to entropy.  Thoughts are independent of both energy and matter.  They exist in their own dimension.

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Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2017, 10:02:38 PM »

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.


JOW

I would say a very healthy majority of my spiritual "beliefs" are not beliefs at all.  To me they are facts.  I do have some that are "beliefs," like reincarnation is one of them.  I believe it on faith, but I have good REASON for believing it based on my own personal experience of life up to this point...my 37th year.  My factual spiritual beliefs come from my own experience of them as realities. 

Another good example of this, at least for me, is my "belief" in the astral or "real time double," as Robert Bruce (author of Astral Dynamics) calls it).  JOW, he's an Australian, if you have not heard of him you should check him out.  I met him in person a few years back.  Anyways, back to topic, I have the "belief" that my astral body and real time double is real because I have experienced them many times.  It is a reality, albeit one much different than the automaton, meat suit, Matrix, fattened on processed sugars,  fat, and other such processed non-food salty bovine chicken butt holes that we feed our sacred body on, reality that so many spend their lives stewing in.

What I mean is, we destroy our bodies on all of this poison because we're plugged into this reality that is not reality.  It'd devoid of nature.  We have removed the nature from our food and what it is to be human, and our reality has become a nightmare that persists.  It's a state brought on by processed fakeness.  Their is a lot of wisdom in the saying "you are what you eat."  It's a state that people take as reality, because it is reality, a really stupid and shitty one that's composed of digital fake reality.

So back to belief, and how the meandering word salad I've just strung together all comes together; my "belief" in the astral body and real time double are not really beliefs, are they?  Because they have been proven to be reality to me by my empirical experience of them.  One could argue that those experiences maybe are not reality, but one can't argue that they are not facts to me.  They are very real facts which I have experienced, and seek to routinely experience.  The most real thing that ever happened to me was when I had my first incubated out of body experience. 

I was an atheist and it changed my life.  I may still be an atheist...it's another very complicated topic to discuss.  I believe it may be possible, and likely, that reality has just always existed...without a "creator."  Reality just is, and always has been. 

I suppose arguing about "belief" can be a slippery slope, but it's one I've always enjoyed.  It really is where philosophy sets sail.

Beliefs are thoughts, which undeniably exist but have no substance.  A thought once generated is Eternal.  So there is no doubt we are all Eternal Beings, since we all had thoughts.  Well, most of us anyhow. lol.

RE

Hmmm. Starting to get all angel tears and unicorn farts now....

RE: A thought once generated is eternal... Prove it.

I am fascinated Lucid, did we meet in my reality or yours?

Getting a bit matrixy here....
A persons experiences may seem very real, but in my reality I think it is incorrect to impose my beliefs, or more importantly bet the lives of other on any belief that could not be verified. This is precisely what religions do. Promises in the afterlife for obedience here. In extreme levels we see people killing others on the promise of rewards in the afterlife.

Science does not have all the answers, but the gaps should not be automatically filled in with beliefs.

Its not that the beliefs will always be wrong, but its the size of the risk.

I will bet the house on a certainty, but very little on a long shot.

Occams razor: 
What is more likely:
1. An individual's faith based belief system which says once we have trashed this realm we will probably all be transformed into galaxy hopping metadata beings of pure love, because that is what I dreamt about after too much Bundaberg rum one night.....

or

2. Once we trash the joint we will probably cease to exist.

I hope for #1, but I am suspicious that #2 may be closer to reality.

This being the case i am setting up robust systems to care for as many of my fellow meat bags as I can.
This is the logical course of action. Fight to the bitter end. RE mentioned some clown who has had 7 heart transplants. That sounds bizarre and a little creepy, but certainly fits the bill of never giving up I suppose. It could also mean he is just a rich narcisist wo can afford the operations and wants to live forever....

I have always argued that faith based belief systems promote fear and Nihilism, no the other way around. They tell you it is alright to give up, as you will be rewarded later...


JOW

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2017, 10:06:08 PM »
Actually, a thought does have substance.  It is composed of energy.

Thoughts have no energy that is measurable.  The brain uses energy to generate thoughts, chemical and electrical energy there, but the thought itself has no energy that can be measured in any way.  There is no loos in a thought when it is transferred from one person to another, whereas any energy transfer always has a loss to entropy.  Thoughts are independent of both energy and matter.  They exist in their own dimension.

RE

Theoretically a thought has some measure of energy, infinitesimal to be sure, but technically there.  It could be measured.  It could probably be figured out mathematically.  When a thought is transfered amoungst people it becomes even more real, especially if spoken.  Now that I think about it, maybe the energy transferred to the thought via the spoken word is what makes it real. 

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 10:10:53 PM »

RE: A thought once generated is eternal... Prove it.

Plato and Aristotle's thoughts are still floating around out there.  They haven't deteriorated in any way over the millenia either, they are just as good today as the day they got thought up.

I can't demonstrate eternality, but a few millenia is a reasonable experiment on thought durability.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 10:12:33 PM »

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.


JOW

I would say a very healthy majority of my spiritual "beliefs" are not beliefs at all.  To me they are facts.  I do have some that are "beliefs," like reincarnation is one of them.  I believe it on faith, but I have good REASON for believing it based on my own personal experience of life up to this point...my 37th year.  My factual spiritual beliefs come from my own experience of them as realities. 

Another good example of this, at least for me, is my "belief" in the astral or "real time double," as Robert Bruce (author of Astral Dynamics) calls it).  JOW, he's an Australian, if you have not heard of him you should check him out.  I met him in person a few years back.  Anyways, back to topic, I have the "belief" that my astral body and real time double is real because I have experienced them many times.  It is a reality, albeit one much different than the automaton, meat suit, Matrix, fattened on processed sugars,  fat, and other such processed non-food salty bovine chicken butt holes that we feed our sacred body on, reality that so many spend their lives stewing in.

What I mean is, we destroy our bodies on all of this poison because we're plugged into this reality that is not reality.  It'd devoid of nature.  We have removed the nature from our food and what it is to be human, and our reality has become a nightmare that persists.  It's a state brought on by processed fakeness.  Their is a lot of wisdom in the saying "you are what you eat."  It's a state that people take as reality, because it is reality, a really stupid and shitty one that's composed of digital fake reality.

So back to belief, and how the meandering word salad I've just strung together all comes together; my "belief" in the astral body and real time double are not really beliefs, are they?  Because they have been proven to be reality to me by my empirical experience of them.  One could argue that those experiences maybe are not reality, but one can't argue that they are not facts to me.  They are very real facts which I have experienced, and seek to routinely experience.  The most real thing that ever happened to me was when I had my first incubated out of body experience. 

I was an atheist and it changed my life.  I may still be an atheist...it's another very complicated topic to discuss.  I believe it may be possible, and likely, that reality has just always existed...without a "creator."  Reality just is, and always has been. 

I suppose arguing about "belief" can be a slippery slope, but it's one I've always enjoyed.  It really is where philosophy sets sail.

Beliefs are thoughts, which undeniably exist but have no substance.  A thought once generated is Eternal.  So there is no doubt we are all Eternal Beings, since we all had thoughts.  Well, most of us anyhow. lol.

RE

Hmmm. Starting to get all angel tears and unicorn farts now....

RE: A thought once generated is eternal... Prove it.

I am fascinated Lucid, did we meet in my reality or yours?

Getting a bit matrixy here....
A persons experiences may seem very real, but in my reality I think it is incorrect to impose my beliefs, or more importantly bet the lives of other on any belief that could not be verified. This is precisely what religions do. Promises in the afterlife for obedience here. In extreme levels we see people killing others on the promise of rewards in the afterlife.

Science does not have all the answers, but the gaps should not be automatically filled in with beliefs.

Its not that the beliefs will always be wrong, but its the size of the risk.

I will bet the house on a certainty, but very little on a long shot.

Occams razor: 
What is more likely:
1. An individual's faith based belief system which says once we have trashed this realm we will probably all be transformed into galaxy hopping metadata beings of pure love, because that is what I dreamt about after too much Bundaberg rum one night.....

or

2. Once we trash the joint we will probably cease to exist.

I hope for #1, but I am suspicious that #2 may be closer to reality.

This being the case i am setting up robust systems to care for as many of my fellow meat bags as I can.
This is the logical course of action. Fight to the bitter end. RE mentioned some clown who has had 7 heart transplants. That sounds bizarre and a little creepy, but certainly fits the bill of never giving up I suppose. It could also mean he is just a rich narcisist wo can afford the operations and wants to live forever....

I have always argued that faith based belief systems promote fear and Nihilism, no the other way around. They tell you it is alright to give up, as you will be rewarded later...


JOW

Hey JOW, I'll take you on in the morning.  As in I'll argue with you as a gentleman philosophist...that is I disagree with you.  I need to go to sleep and hopefully wake up in a lucid dream.  Body needs recovery from waging war with thorny plants all day.😉

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2017, 10:13:37 PM »
Actually, a thought does have substance.  It is composed of energy.

Thoughts have no energy that is measurable.  The brain uses energy to generate thoughts, chemical and electrical energy there, but the thought itself has no energy that can be measured in any way.  There is no loos in a thought when it is transferred from one person to another, whereas any energy transfer always has a loss to entropy.  Thoughts are independent of both energy and matter.  They exist in their own dimension.

RE

Theoretically a thought has some measure of energy, infinitesimal to be sure, but technically there.  It could be measured.  It could probably be figured out mathematically.  When a thought is transfered amoungst people it becomes even more real, especially if spoken.  Now that I think about it, maybe the energy transferred to the thought via the spoken word is what makes it real.

I have never seen any experiment which measured the energy in a thought.

RE
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Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2017, 10:19:22 PM »
Thanks Lucid. Happy to do the same. I periodically are off line at work etc... Different time zones and all in this hemisphere....

RE: Aristotle's thoughts are being re-thought when people read his writings. His thoughts are not eternal, his ideas are being re-thought.

JOW

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2017, 10:32:28 PM »

RE: Aristotle's thoughts are being re-thought when people read his writings. His thoughts are not eternal, his ideas are being re-thought.


In order to be "re-thought", the thought had to originate at some point in the space-time continuum.  Nobody could re-think the thoughts of Plato or Aristotle if they hadn't thought of them in the first place.  They could only originate new thoughts, which might resemble what Plato and Aristotle thought of, but they got there first and the thoughts exist to this day.  It may not be eternal, but a few millenia is a LONG lasting thought!

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2017, 11:55:04 PM »

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical.

While I do not know that JDW is right, I have reasons to think it highly plausible that he is. For those reasons, see
http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,2402.0.html




Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2017, 02:34:10 AM »
Ideas may last forever but thoughts are only in the now.
= you are wrong.
I score this as 1 nil to me RE. :-*
That was easy!

JOW

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2017, 06:28:36 AM »


Hmmm. Starting to get all angel tears and unicorn farts now....

Haven't heard "angel tears," so I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but based on "unicorn farts" it seems to me you are talking about "woo woo."  I'm familiar with that term.  It being to refer to the type that believes in fairies, trolls, and elves as real entities as portrayed by fairy tales.  It's a sort of childish magic of the Disneyland sort.  It is ridiculous nonsense.  I am not talking about ridiculous nonsense, so I hope you are not referring to anything I have said.  I'm talking about logic and reason and empirical experience that arrives at a view of reality that is NOT "unicorn farts."  Would you care to elaborate on what it is you are talking about here? 

Quote
I am fascinated Lucid, did we meet in my reality or yours?

Technically we have never met.  Our egos have met...and possibly our minds, but we have not met.  Maybe we will one day.  I'd love to go to Australia.  I was supposed to go to Perth and Tasmania but we bombed Afghanistan instead.

To directly answer your question however, we met in both of our realities.  "We" being our online avatars, or our egos, nothing more (with the possible exception to our minds have met now as well...I'd have to think on that some more). 

Quote
Getting a bit matrixy here....
A persons experiences may seem very real, but in my reality I think it is incorrect to impose my beliefs, or more importantly bet the lives of other on any belief that could not be verified. This is precisely what religions do. Promises in the afterlife for obedience here. In extreme levels we see people killing others on the promise of rewards in the afterlife.

This seems to be a bone you have to pick with religions, and as far as I know you are the only one who has brought up religions on this thread.  I referenced Buddhism by referencing words of the Buddha, but Buddhism is not really a religion as understood by us westerners at least.  It's more of a spiritual philosophy.  It doesn't make sense exoterically to a Western mind.  I agree with you assessment of religions.  However, it's not so much the religions fault as it is the idiots that practice it exoterically, and the idiots that take advantage of the idiots who can't think for themselves and therefore miss the esoteric message that religions are meant to convey.  Shit like don't worry about the splinter in your neighbors eye when you have a log sticking out of yours. 

Quote
Science does not have all the answers, but the gaps should not be automatically filled in with beliefs.

You saying that the scientific gaps should not be filled in with beliefs is a statement of belief.  Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle...our observations change the behavior of the observed...it's a mystery that no human tool will ever crack.  However, the mind knows and can experience the truth. 

Quote
Its not that the beliefs will always be wrong, but its the size of the risk.

I will bet the house on a certainty, but very little on a long shot.

What is certainty?  Where does it truly exist?  Also, I'm not so sure what the point you are trying to make here is. 
Quote
Occams razor: 
What is more likely:
1. An individual's faith based belief system which says once we have trashed this realm we will probably all be transformed into galaxy hopping metadata beings of pure love, because that is what I dreamt about after too much Bundaberg rum one night.....

or

2. Once we trash the joint we will probably cease to exist.

I hope for #1, but I am suspicious that #2 may be closer to reality.

Number 2 is more likely.  Number one is rubbish.  You should not equate esoteric spirituality with exoteric religion.  I hate it when people do that because it comes from a place of ignorance.  Look into the what Aldous Huxley called the "perennial philosophy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy

Quote
The Perennial philosophy (Latin: philosophia perennis),[note 1] also referred to as Perennialism, is a perspective in the philosophy of religion which views each of the world's religious traditions as sharing a single, universal truth from which all esoteric and exoteric knowledge and doctrine has grown.

Agostino Steuco (14971548) coined the term philosophia perennis,[1] drawing on the neo-Platonic philosophy of Marsilio Ficino (14331499) and Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (146394).

In the early 19th century this idea was popularised by the Transcendentalists. Towards the end of the 19th century the Theosophical Society further popularized the concept under the name of "Wisdom-Religion" or "Ancient Wisdom".[2] In the 20th century it was popularized in the English-speaking world through Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy as well as by the strands of thought which culminated in the New Age movement.

Quote
This being the case i am setting up robust systems to care for as many of my fellow meat bags as I can.
This is the logical course of action. Fight to the bitter end. RE mentioned some clown who has had 7 heart transplants. That sounds bizarre and a little creepy, but certainly fits the bill of never giving up I suppose. It could also mean he is just a rich narcisist wo can afford the operations and wants to live forever....

Yes, we should at least try.  I am doing the same thing you are doing to the best of my ability.  I'm living in two separate worlds in doing so as well. 

Quote
I have always argued that faith based belief systems promote fear and Nihilism, no the other way around. They tell you it is alright to give up, as you will be rewarded later...


JOW

You have faith in science.  Science is a belief system.  By your measure science promotes fear and Nihilism.  You can't have it both ways.  You don't have any choice but to believe in something...unless you choose to believe in nothing (which is what Nihilism is) which itself is a belief...a belief in nothing meaning anything.  Nihilism is a logical paradox IMO.  One should have the intestinal fortitude to believe what one believes with integrity.  That means understanding that all belief is not provable. 

But then, prove to me that an atom is as science models it.  You can't do that, but we take it on faith that science is correct.  Until it's proven false, in which case we believe what science says again...and again...and again...even as it proves itself inaccurate and false over and over again.  Why does science get a pass?  Further, prove to me how science itself is not a belief.  My contention is that science, like Nihilism, is nothing more than a belief, and one that contradicts itself on a regular basis. 

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2017, 06:33:17 AM »
Ideas may last forever but thoughts are only in the now.
= you are wrong.
I score this as 1 nil to me RE. :-*
That was easy!

You are making a linguistic distinction without a difference.

Whether you wish to call them "thoughts" or "ideas", they are neither matter nor energy, and they last what appears to be infinitely long in time.

I score it 2-nil, to me.

RE
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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2017, 06:40:38 AM »
I'm new to all this but thoughts and ideas should both be considered as needing energy to propagate or be remembered no?  Granted the cost of having the thought or remembering the idea would be very small and would be calculated as a percentage of the energy required to keep your biological infrastructure going; but that is a real cost.  Learning the idea in the first place might have been oral for some but most likely involved printed or more and more digital material: again not free.  The time you spent hearing the thought instead of gathering the means of survival had a cost. 
My kids are away today so I have too much time to think.
Best regards, David Baillie
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2017, 06:42:19 AM »
Ideas may last forever but thoughts are only in the now.
= you are wrong.
I score this as 1 nil to me RE. :-*
That was easy!

You are making a linguistic distinction without a difference.

Whether you wish to call them "thoughts" or "ideas", they are neither matter nor energy, and they last what appears to be infinitely long in time.

I score it 2-nil, to me.

RE

Wait...in order to have thoughts (scientifically at least) we have to have a brain.  In order for the brain to do it's job it has to have energy, and more specifically, it has to have living neurons.  In the neurons a physical process occurs due to chemical energy.  That chemical energy is thought manifest.  Ergo, thought has a physical component and as such is theoretically measurable. 

You can't have a thought without a brain.  When the brain dies due to lack of oxygen, thought dies with it...at least for the individual brain according to science. 

I think science is correct, but it's also not the whole picture.  Like the different blind men grasping at an elephant and all touching something different.  They are all correct, and they are all wrong, and this at the same time.  Just as science is correct, but it is also wrong because it's not encompassing the entire elephant.  It's reductionist and only measures parts.  If it can't be reduced down to measurability then it's considered false.  That is hogwash. 

Thought has a physical component.  Therefore part of what thought is is measurable and has a physical reality. 

JOW and RE=0
LD= infinity

 O0

 

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