AuthorTopic: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom  (Read 18398 times)

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2017, 06:44:36 AM »
I'm new to all this but thoughts and ideas should both be considered as needing energy to propagate or be remembered no?  Granted the cost of having the thought or remembering the idea would be very small and would be calculated as a percentage of the energy required to keep your biological infrastructure going; but that is a real cost.  Learning the idea in the first place might have been oral for some but most likely involved printed or more and more digital material: again not free.  The time you spent hearing the thought instead of gathering the means of survival had a cost. 
My kids are away today so I have too much time to think.
Best regards, David Baillie

Cool, it appears that you and I agree on the matter. 

BTW, I never welcomed you to the Diner...

 :hi:

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2017, 06:47:10 AM »
we should split the thread RE.  I'd do it, but every time I do I fucks it ups lebowski! 

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2017, 06:48:11 AM »
I'm new to all this but thoughts and ideas should both be considered as needing energy to propagate or be remembered no?  Granted the cost of having the thought or remembering the idea would be very small and would be calculated as a percentage of the energy required to keep your biological infrastructure going; but that is a real cost.  Learning the idea in the first place might have been oral for some but most likely involved printed or more and more digital material: again not free.  The time you spent hearing the thought instead of gathering the means of survival had a cost. 
My kids are away today so I have too much time to think.
Best regards, David Baillie

They appear to last through the ages with no input of energy.  When you start thinking about them, since your brain works on chemical and electrical energy, then energy is expended, but in the intervening millenia between when the idea was first originated and when you rethink it there is no energy involved.

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2017, 06:54:45 AM »
we should split the thread RE.  I'd do it, but every time I do I fucks it ups lebowski!

Not going to split it.  It goes too far back and would be hard to find the right place to cut it.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2017, 06:58:57 AM »
I'm new to all this but thoughts and ideas should both be considered as needing energy to propagate or be remembered no?  Granted the cost of having the thought or remembering the idea would be very small and would be calculated as a percentage of the energy required to keep your biological infrastructure going; but that is a real cost.  Learning the idea in the first place might have been oral for some but most likely involved printed or more and more digital material: again not free.  The time you spent hearing the thought instead of gathering the means of survival had a cost. 
My kids are away today so I have too much time to think.
Best regards, David Baillie

They appear to last through the ages with no input of energy.  When you start thinking about them, since your brain works on chemical and electrical energy, then energy is expended, but in the intervening millenia between when the idea was first originated and when you rethink it there is no energy involved.

RE

I agree that there is definitely a component of thought that requires no energy.  However this aspect of thought cannot be proven because it requires a belief in existence beyond our meat suits...which I happen to have and believe.

Everything is recorded in the Akashic records :laugh:

Quote
In theosophy and anthroposophy, the Akashic records are a compendium of thoughts, events, and emotions believed by theosophists to be encoded in a non-physical plane of existence known as the etheric plane. There are anecdotal accounts but no scientific evidence for existence of the Akashic records.[1][2][3]

Akasha (ākāśa आकाश) is the Sanskrit word for "aether" or "atmosphere". Also, in the Nepali language, Akash (आकाश) means "sky" or "heaven".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

I happen to believe that the Akashic records are real and can be visited.  I have never been there, but I believe it is.

No JOW, it is not a place of Unicorn Farts.  It is a place where all experience is recorded.  A cosmic library of sorts. 

The beginning of this Animatrix scene depicts the Akashic record.  If you youtube "akashic record" you will be bombarded with woo woo, but that does not detract from it's reality. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pdQceIJ-t-M?list=PLJ-sErhD-26eOewsd6K0QkbO8JT8YaZQ4" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pdQceIJ-t-M?list=PLJ-sErhD-26eOewsd6K0QkbO8JT8YaZQ4</a>

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2017, 07:14:21 AM »
I'm new to all this but thoughts and ideas should both be considered as needing energy to propagate or be remembered no?  Granted the cost of having the thought or remembering the idea would be very small and would be calculated as a percentage of the energy required to keep your biological infrastructure going; but that is a real cost.  Learning the idea in the first place might have been oral for some but most likely involved printed or more and more digital material: again not free.  The time you spent hearing the thought instead of gathering the means of survival had a cost. 
My kids are away today so I have too much time to think.
Best regards, David Baillie

They appear to last through the ages with no input of energy.  When you start thinking about them, since your brain works on chemical and electrical energy, then energy is expended, but in the intervening millenia between when the idea was first originated and when you rethink it there is no energy involved.

RE

I agree that there is definitely a component of thought that requires no energy.  However this aspect of thought cannot be proven because it requires a belief in existence beyond our meat suits...which I happen to have and believe.

Everything is recorded in the Akashic records :laugh:

Quote
In theosophy and anthroposophy, the Akashic records are a compendium of thoughts, events, and emotions believed by theosophists to be encoded in a non-physical plane of existence known as the etheric plane. There are anecdotal accounts but no scientific evidence for existence of the Akashic records.[1][2][3]

Akasha (ākāśa आकाश) is the Sanskrit word for "aether" or "atmosphere". Also, in the Nepali language, Akash (आकाश) means "sky" or "heaven".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

I happen to believe that the Akashic records are real and can be visited.  I have never been there, but I believe it is.

No JOW, it is not a place of Unicorn Farts.  It is a place where all experience is recorded.  A cosmic library of sorts. 

The beginning of this Animatrix scene depicts the Akashic record.  If you youtube "akashic record" you will be bombarded with woo woo, but that does not detract from it's reality. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pdQceIJ-t-M?list=PLJ-sErhD-26eOewsd6K0QkbO8JT8YaZQ4" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pdQceIJ-t-M?list=PLJ-sErhD-26eOewsd6K0QkbO8JT8YaZQ4</a>

Thoughts/Ideas can be recorded and stored as either matter (ink on paper, for example) or energy (electromagnetic digibits on a computer for example), but prior to an original one popping into your brain, that idea did not exist before.  Once you do get the idead, then it exists.  So where did the idea come from since it was not in your brain before you thought of it?  Did you pull it out of the ether, or did it originate in your brain?  Either way, it takes energy and matter to get an idea, since you need a functioning brain for this, but once the idea has been created or found in the ether, it is matter and energy independent.

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2017, 11:22:44 AM »

Science is a belief system.  By your measure science promotes fear and Nihilism.  You can't have it both ways.  You don't have any choice but to believe in something...unless you choose to believe in nothing (which is what Nihilism is) which itself is a belief...a belief in nothing meaning anything.  Nihilism is a logical paradox IMO.  One should have the intestinal fortitude to believe what one believes with integrity.  That means understanding that all belief is not provable. 


I agree with all the rest you say in this post except when you say that science is a belief system. Science is a method, not a belief system. Scientism, on the other hand, which says that only scientific knowledge is valid, is a belief system, and a pernicious one at that. (Also illogical, since science cannot demonstrate that scientism is true.)

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2017, 11:47:17 AM »
To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical.
While I do not know that JDW is right, I have reasons to think it highly plausible that he is. For those reasons, see
http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,2402.0.html
Once you see a ghost with your own eyes, it's kind of hard not to believe....
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »

Science is a belief system.  By your measure science promotes fear and Nihilism.  You can't have it both ways.  You don't have any choice but to believe in something...unless you choose to believe in nothing (which is what Nihilism is) which itself is a belief...a belief in nothing meaning anything.  Nihilism is a logical paradox IMO.  One should have the intestinal fortitude to believe what one believes with integrity.  That means understanding that all belief is not provable. 


I agree with all the rest you say in this post except when you say that science is a belief system. Science is a method, not a belief system. Scientism, on the other hand, which says that only scientific knowledge is valid, is a belief system, and a pernicious one at that. (Also illogical, since science cannot demonstrate that scientism is true.)

Duly noted sir, thanks for the correction. 

Also, that's a lot that we agree on, and since I accept your point as true, it now seems we agree entirely on the matter :emthup:

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2017, 01:13:01 PM »
To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical.
While I do not know that JDW is right, I have reasons to think it highly plausible that he is. For those reasons, see
http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,2402.0.html
Once you see a ghost with your own eyes, it's kind of hard not to believe....

You've seen a ghost JDW?

I've never seen one.  Ghost are in the realm of possibility but not verified for me, so my mind remains open to the possibility.  It's easy to add the belief in ghosts in with reincarnation. 

Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2017, 03:09:58 PM »
A lot to catch up with...
I also see science as a method of trying to get to the truth, not the truth itself. science is continually wrong and corrects itself. That is why I like it and why it is so powerful. It corrects itself when a better fit is observed. Now truth is an interesting concept....
Facts are facts, but how we perceive them may alter our idea of what is true and correct. As I said, science does not have all the answers, but it is the most logical method to find them I believe.

I am not used to working in such philosophical realms, so pardon my crudity if I offend. I am used to working nearly exclusively in the physical realm as an engineer. A lot of Lucids ideas are new to me. I will research them and either accept them, dismiss them, or decide they need more research. The etheric plane is #1 on my research list. Finding proof is the interesting bit, hence angel tears and unicorn farts comment... If angels and unicorns exist supposedly they cry and pass wind (Damn unicorn methane is causing global warming!). Hence we should be able to find these excretions and emissions as proof of existence.

I will try and keep religion out of my posts, but it always seems to come up when science, denial, thought experiments and nihilism are themes in a conversation. Yes I do have a huge beef with religion. It is one my 4 horsemen. It kills people. It keeps people ignorant. it is all that is bad with humanity concentrated for ease of use. Organised religions hide behind the few good deeds they do to cover up their true evil nature.  Most religions say they have the answers and you have to suspend observations to fit their models, not the other way around. In short: Good people do good deeps: Look out for their fellow man. Bad people do bad deeds: Harm their fellow man. Religion gets otherwise good people to do bad deeds: Homophobia, hate crimes, sexism, bigotry, suicide bombing, persecutions, banish people from communities, and generally permit atrocities because their god says it is right.. There! Out of my system. No more religion.

Esoteric spirituality and esoteric religion appear the same from the outside. (Pardon my ignorance). I will research.

Ghosts. Hmm. I cant prove they exist or don't exist. I will believe in them when there is scientific proofs. The invisible and the non-existent look just the same. (See invisible dragons, chocolate teapots, flying spaghetti monster thought experiments etc..) My brain works on electrical and chemical reactions. It can be fooled. I have read how Sharmen take magic mushrooms and  all have the same hallucination, hence they believe they all are speaking to similar ghosts or beings not of this plane, as how else would they have a shared experience? They could be. Alternatively, if the same chemicals are put in similar brains, it should produce similar results, hence the similar experiences.  Occams razor.

Now back to the thread;
No, I will have a break and come back after breakfast.
Beautiful clear morning here. Already 20 deg C at 09:00hrs. 32 forecast next 2 days. (That's around 70 and 90 f respectively).

JOW


Offline Eddie

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2017, 03:46:44 PM »
Religion is not an off-limits topic. We have had and still do have some really religious people who post here. But most diners who aren't atheists (and I'm not) probably fall more into the category of spiritual rather than religious.

For me it's a difficult area that I've spent many decades, most of my life, in fact, trying to sort out.

I like what Ka says, more elegantly than I can. He has made some excellent posts that are well worth reading, about the nature of consciousness.

A lot of things seem to fit better if one makes the argument that consciousness exists in the first place rather than arising as a result of evolution and neurobiology. That has spiritual implications, if one accepts it as true.



Max Planck is a name most engineers have heard. He said this:

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as a derivative of consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing postulates consciousness.

and this:

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.

 Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797)


I think most of us would agree that organized religions, especially Christianity and Islam, have been used as a an excuse for a lot of bad behavior, and that the existing religious hierarchies promote policies that have done and still do a great deal of harm.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2017, 03:53:47 PM »
To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical.
While I do not know that JDW is right, I have reasons to think it highly plausible that he is. For those reasons, see
http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,2402.0.html
Once you see a ghost with your own eyes, it's kind of hard not to believe....

You've seen a ghost JDW?

I've never seen one.  Ghost are in the realm of possibility but not verified for me, so my mind remains open to the possibility.  It's easy to add the belief in ghosts in with reincarnation.

I have seen a ghost.  His name was Casper.  He was very Friendly.  Casper the Friendly Ghost.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/OlyR9U1pQ70" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/OlyR9U1pQ70</a>

The problem you have with "seeing" a ghost is without some independent verification, you can't know for sure that you saw it.  Like a Schizophrenic who "hears voices" telling him to do stuff, it could just be your mind playing tricks on you.  To the schizo, the voices seem very real.  However, they only exist inside his own head, nobody else can hear them.

Thoughts & Ideas are not "ghosts".  They are very real, but they have no physical substance nor any energy in them.  They are independently verifiable to exist between different people, so their existence is a sure thing, or as sure as anything gets anyhow.

The question is, where do those thoughts and ideas come from?  Do they spontaneously pop into existence?  Why?  Do they always exist and meat packages periodically run into them by accident?

RE
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2017, 05:02:34 PM »
I am still patiently waiting for my first paranormal experience. No ghosts, no aliens. No anal probe.

Flying on the astral plane sounds good. But I have not really managed to make it happen, as of yet.

The anecdotal evidence I have that does the most to make me want to accept a consciousness that isn't dependent on the meat suit, is what I've read about past lives. I studied hypnosis for a couple of years, and past life regression is an interesting technique that I learned a little bit about as a part of that.

Some excellent books have been written that I put some store in. Brian Weiss.

It also makes for a much nicer religious tradition, if you allow rebirth and karma. Everyone gets there. Everyone becomes enlightened. Everyone becomes fully realized. Eventually.

You do it over until you get it right. People don't get  get condemned to eternal flames, but they can run up some serious karmic debts that might take a long time to work through.

If I have to choose a mythology, I'd rather pick one that's based on using life as a learning experience rather than one that lists a bunch of shalt-nots and prescribes eternal damnation for all but the few True Believers..
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline JRM

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Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2017, 05:28:02 PM »
I could give a shit, or not give a shit, about what happens to my "eternal soul".  :laugh: :evil4:


I want there to be salmon and redwood forests for the children who will be born long after the flesh of my bones are decomposed.


I don't care about the ERoEI of ghosts or assholes.   I want to see smiles and hear laughter.   I want joy that links the generations all the way back to the Pleistocene and beyond.  I want rainstorms with real, and without phony, Biblical fig leafs.  I want kisses without apologies.  I want sandy beaches and driftwood fires and the ongoing dance of generation/s -- gift-to-gift.


Let the ghosts look after the ghosts.   Let the ghosts roam the Andromeda galaxy wearing Orion's belt.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

 

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