AuthorTopic: Machinery for a post collapse world  (Read 11883 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Pondering collapse, making motor fuel.
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2017, 02:26:14 PM »
Lots of interesting postings in the last few days. I have my feet up and am tending the fire for warmth and charcoal production today. -17 farenheit this morning... that is cold.

7F here.  We're catching up!

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Season of the sap
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2018, 05:58:54 PM »
This is as close to religion as I get. My ancestors have been doing this springtime bucket dance for over a century. with wood spiles and wood buckets another century and first nations people for probably thousands of years before that. I only put out 20 taps this year on the woodlot I'm trying to buy. Its very early in the season and over the last three days only about 2 litres per tap has flowed the weather has not been cooperating. if you do not get freezing temperatures at night and a sunny 5 or 6 degrees celsius during the day you get no sap.  On a good day you will get 8 litres from a good tap. This year I've moved the boiler into the greenhouse. I'm trying to add humidity to the soil and increase nighttime temperatures. On a big boil day I can actually make it rain as the condensation drips down off the plastic disturbed by a breeze. Its very peaceful and highly addictive. To see the life essence of a tree in spring boiled down to something so special is magical.
Cheers
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Season of the sap
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2018, 06:24:16 PM »
This is as close to religion as I get. My ancestors have been doing this springtime bucket dance for over a century. with wood spiles and wood buckets another century and first nations people for probably thousands of years before that. I only put out 20 taps this year on the woodlot I'm trying to buy. Its very early in the season and over the last three days only about 2 litres per tap has flowed the weather has not been cooperating. if you do not get freezing temperatures at night and a sunny 5 or 6 degrees celsius during the day you get no sap.  On a good day you will get 8 litres from a good tap. This year I've moved the boiler into the greenhouse. I'm trying to add humidity to the soil and increase nighttime temperatures. On a big boil day I can actually make it rain as the condensation drips down off the plastic disturbed by a breeze. Its very peaceful and highly addictive. To see the life essence of a tree in spring boiled down to something so special is magical.
Cheers

Have you ever calculated the energy it takes to boil the sap down to syrup?  ???   :icon_scratch:  How much wood to make how many gallons (litres) of syrup from how much Sap?  How many trees to tap for how many gallons of final product?

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Offline agelbert

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Maple Sap Harvesting
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2018, 06:26:15 PM »
 :emthup: :icon_sunny:

I read about that Strategic Maple syrup reserve Canada has a few weeks ago. You folks DO take your Maple Syrup GOLD seriously.

Here in Vermont, Climate change is slowly destroying an important export. As you know, for the sap to run well, you need the pumping effect of above freezing temps in the day and below freezing at night. What is happening due to climate change is that the winter stays cold until it doesn't. So, we are increasingly experiencing low sap yields from lack of below freezing temperatures at night during March and April, normally the best time to harvest sap.

Enjoy your sap while you can. I don't think Canada will avoid the fate of Vermont.  :(
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:38:34 PM by agelbert »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Machinery for a post collapse world
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2018, 06:34:07 PM »
Sounds like a wonderful tradition. Maple syrup is the poster child for nature's bounty. So good.

In East Texas where I grew up syrup mills were once common. All cane...sugar cane and ribbon cane is what I remember. Molasses really. It  was a fall semi-outdoor process, under an open shed.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Season of the sap
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2018, 06:41:52 PM »
This is as close to religion as I get. My ancestors have been doing this springtime bucket dance for over a century. with wood spiles and wood buckets another century and first nations people for probably thousands of years before that. I only put out 20 taps this year on the woodlot I'm trying to buy. Its very early in the season and over the last three days only about 2 litres per tap has flowed the weather has not been cooperating. if you do not get freezing temperatures at night and a sunny 5 or 6 degrees celsius during the day you get no sap.  On a good day you will get 8 litres from a good tap. This year I've moved the boiler into the greenhouse. I'm trying to add humidity to the soil and increase nighttime temperatures. On a big boil day I can actually make it rain as the condensation drips down off the plastic disturbed by a breeze. Its very peaceful and highly addictive. To see the life essence of a tree in spring boiled down to something so special is magical.
Cheers

Have you ever calculated the energy it takes to boil the sap down to syrup?  ???   :icon_scratch:  How much wood to make how many gallons (litres) of syrup from how much Sap?  How many trees to tap for how many gallons of final product?

RE
Well it takes about 1200 btu to boil away a pound of water so 2640 per litre of water. 1 pound of wood has 7000 btu in it and I expect the boiler is in the 30-50 percent efficiency plus I want to collect charcoal from that so more losses lets use 30 percent. so 2100 but of useable heat... close enough because as the sugar content increases the boiling efficiency goes up so say 40 lbs of wood for 1 litre of syrup. The commercial operations are switching to reverse osmosis to reduce boil time by two thirds but I find it makes it taste like shit. Traditionally its a way of concentrating resources for export just like sides of bacon or whiskey instead of corn... Ship a barrel of maple syrup instead of a railcar of firewood.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Season of the sap
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2018, 06:52:44 PM »
This is as close to religion as I get. My ancestors have been doing this springtime bucket dance for over a century. with wood spiles and wood buckets another century and first nations people for probably thousands of years before that. I only put out 20 taps this year on the woodlot I'm trying to buy. Its very early in the season and over the last three days only about 2 litres per tap has flowed the weather has not been cooperating. if you do not get freezing temperatures at night and a sunny 5 or 6 degrees celsius during the day you get no sap.  On a good day you will get 8 litres from a good tap. This year I've moved the boiler into the greenhouse. I'm trying to add humidity to the soil and increase nighttime temperatures. On a big boil day I can actually make it rain as the condensation drips down off the plastic disturbed by a breeze. Its very peaceful and highly addictive. To see the life essence of a tree in spring boiled down to something so special is magical.
Cheers

Have you ever calculated the energy it takes to boil the sap down to syrup?  ???   :icon_scratch:  How much wood to make how many gallons (litres) of syrup from how much Sap?  How many trees to tap for how many gallons of final product?

RE
Well it takes about 1200 btu to boil away a pound of water so 2640 per litre of water. 1 pound of wood has 7000 btu in it and I expect the boiler is in the 30-50 percent efficiency plus I want to collect charcoal from that so more losses lets use 30 percent. so 2100 but of useable heat... close enough because as the sugar content increases the boiling efficiency goes up so say 40 lbs of wood for 1 litre of syrup. The commercial operations are switching to reverse osmosis to reduce boil time by two thirds but I find it makes it taste like shit. Traditionally its a way of concentrating resources for export just like sides of bacon or whiskey instead of corn... Ship a barrel of maple syrup instead of a railcar of firewood.

Same deal with Prohibition and Alcohol.  It was way cheaper and more profitable for farmers to make BOOZE out of their grain and ship that to market rather than the grain itself, which you had to do via the Railroads generally speaking. Booze you could ship in a horse drawn wagon.  So they taxed it and made "bootlegging" illegal.

40 lbs of wood for 1 litre of syrup seems like a lot.  How many trees do you need to burn to do a season's worth of syrup making?

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Maple Sap Harvesting
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2018, 06:55:56 PM »
:emthup: :icon_sunny:

I read about that Strategic Maple syrup reserve Canada has a few weeks ago. You folks DO take your Maple Syrup GOLD seriously.

Here in Vermont, Climate change is slowly destroying an important export. As you know, for the sap to run well, you need the pumping effect of above freezing temps in the day and below freezing at night. What is happening due to climate change is that the winter stays cold until it doesn't. So, we are increasingly experiencing low sap yields from lack of below freezing temperatures at night during March and April, normally the best time to harvest sap.

Enjoy your sap while you can. I don't think Canada will avoid the fate of Vermont.  :(
Wee bit of a gloomy gus tonight aren't we? Usually its all shiny electric cars and solar farms.
I expect some syrup production to continue into at least the first phase of warming. Its already here really with beech diseases and species creep already underway. There are pilot projects locally to move species north earlier to try to anticipate a warmer world. Southern Pensylvania and virginia produce a fair bit of maple syrup still so our days are not over yet. Vermont's biggest problem is urbanization and gentrification I think. It takes poor country boys to make syrup because the profit is so tiny. In a well paid expensive woodlot world it makes no sense.
I grew up in Quebec which is who has the strategic reserve. If you are a commercial syrup operator in quebec you have to join the association and sell it to them. No other province has such harsh rules. Honestly I think its a mistake as it homogenizes the product in an era of craft breweries and local cheeses. Big syrup tastes like shit too. I'm a mountain boy so our maples don't have an easy life. They live in granite and suck up a lot of minerals. they produce probably 1/2 the sap of a lowland maple. You can taste it in the syrup.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Season of the sap
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2018, 07:13:34 PM »
This is as close to religion as I get. My ancestors have been doing this springtime bucket dance for over a century. with wood spiles and wood buckets another century and first nations people for probably thousands of years before that. I only put out 20 taps this year on the woodlot I'm trying to buy. Its very early in the season and over the last three days only about 2 litres per tap has flowed the weather has not been cooperating. if you do not get freezing temperatures at night and a sunny 5 or 6 degrees celsius during the day you get no sap.  On a good day you will get 8 litres from a good tap. This year I've moved the boiler into the greenhouse. I'm trying to add humidity to the soil and increase nighttime temperatures. On a big boil day I can actually make it rain as the condensation drips down off the plastic disturbed by a breeze. Its very peaceful and highly addictive. To see the life essence of a tree in spring boiled down to something so special is magical.
Cheers

Have you ever calculated the energy it takes to boil the sap down to syrup?  ???   :icon_scratch:  How much wood to make how many gallons (litres) of syrup from how much Sap?  How many trees to tap for how many gallons of final product?

RE
Well it takes about 1200 btu to boil away a pound of water so 2640 per litre of water. 1 pound of wood has 7000 btu in it and I expect the boiler is in the 30-50 percent efficiency plus I want to collect charcoal from that so more losses lets use 30 percent. so 2100 but of useable heat... close enough because as the sugar content increases the boiling efficiency goes up so say 40 lbs of wood for 1 litre of syrup. The commercial operations are switching to reverse osmosis to reduce boil time by two thirds but I find it makes it taste like shit. Traditionally its a way of concentrating resources for export just like sides of bacon or whiskey instead of corn... Ship a barrel of maple syrup instead of a railcar of firewood.

Same deal with Prohibition and Alcohol.  It was way cheaper and more profitable for farmers to make BOOZE out of their grain and ship that to market rather than the grain itself, which you had to do via the Railroads generally speaking. Booze you could ship in a horse drawn wagon.  So they taxed it and made "bootlegging" illegal.

40 lbs of wood for 1 litre of syrup seems like a lot.  How many trees do you need to burn to do a season's worth of syrup making?

RE
Its a lot of wood. I'm improving it with roxul panels and thin splitting. Mostly its the unsellable top third of the tree or softwood trees with no market. It really goes hand in hand with having a woodlot. Its a way to extract another product by refining down something into a finished good. I grew up with my grandmother calling white sugar "sunday sugar" because it used to be only for guests and sunday. Maple sugar was the norm. I'm not that old but it's telling how poor that area was until recently. 
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Season of the sap: first boil
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2018, 07:36:23 PM »
Well, 40 more litres tonight so 80 total. The boiler holds about 200. I'm just bringing it up to a boil tonight to pasturise  it so I can wait a few days. Should be a great weekend for sap.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Season of the sap: first boil
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 07:45:57 PM »
Well, 40 more litres tonight so 80 total. The boiler holds about 200. I'm just bringing it up to a boil tonight to pasturise  it so I can wait a few days. Should be a great weekend for sap.

Do you sell it or keep it for yourself?

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Machinery for a post collapse world
« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2018, 08:02:14 PM »
All for us. I dole some out to friends and family but for now it's a small scale affair. Still hopeful about the wood lot though. If it goes ahead it has a potential of about 2000 taps...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Machinery for a post collapse world
« Reply #87 on: March 24, 2018, 06:02:00 AM »
I was quite surprised by how the new design performed. I'll have to take better wood measurement as it boiled down 40 litres in 2 hours on a single arm full of softwood. I was aiming for some rocket stove properties and she really boils. I went out to a steam bath! You tube link:
https://youtu.be/7cJzaEO1SBc
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 06:50:30 AM by David B. »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Machinery for a post collapse world
« Reply #88 on: March 24, 2018, 06:26:05 AM »
I was quite surprised by how the new design performed. I'll have to take better wood measurement as it boiled down 40 litres in 2 hours on a single arm full of softwood. I was aiming for some rocket stove properties and she really boils. I went out to a steam bath!

Great Newz!  Maybe you can store the sap a while unitl there is more SUN and do it all Solar!

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Machinery for a post collapse world
« Reply #89 on: March 24, 2018, 06:31:54 AM »
Wood is stored sunlight. 4 percent yield per year. Transformable, no manufacturing costs. It mines and extracts it's own raw materials, performs a vital function of cleaning the air... it's the perfect battery.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

 

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