AuthorTopic: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest (offshoot)  (Read 1373 times)

Online RE

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Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest (offshoot)
« on: February 15, 2017, 05:22:07 AM »
Another python attack this evening, this time one had got into one of my big cages away from the house where the rooster and the adults hens roost.  I don't think it has ever been breached before when it has been properly shut up.  A couple of times a python has got in there first, but then the birds all stand around outside.  I have a spotlight which points right at it, so was able to see, and used the broom handle to pin it in a corner, while (in theory) the birds escape.  In practice though they were too scared to move, and there was thunder crashing all around.  I shoo-ed the birds out one by one, and was just in time to get back indoors before the downpour struck.  No losses.

On the positive side, 8 chicks hatched on the same day this week.  They had been brooded by three hens and usually when that happens, the most dominant hen will take them all.  But these are all first time mothers and seem to be managing a socialist collective creche without any agro.  Seems like a good idea.

I'm always amazed by these type of postings by Diners. A city boy like me is totally dependent on the local super market for everything.

Of course.  Same as me GO.

But, we both are old guys who have some money.  We could in theory fund a small SUN Community, with younger Permaculture people like LD and WHD who know how to raise chickens.

Unfortunately, I have never been able to sell you on the concept.

RE
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 06:41:19 PM by Palloy2 »
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2017, 05:43:23 AM »
Of course.  Same as me GO.

Quote
But, we both are old guys who have some money.  We could in theory fund a small SUN Community, with younger Permaculture people like LD and WHD who know how to raise chickens.

Unfortunately, I have never been able to sell you on the concept.

RE

I have thought about it, and with no disrespect to you or your ideas find in an untenable solution.

As stated years back, my honest opinion is that a community of that idealistic type only works in the monastic model.

A Knarf type situation. Women, kids, differing political and religious views. Lack of a chief Abbot whose rule is absolute law etc. Those factors alone mitigate against it working. Just a dozen or so women living together in harmony is an impossibility in my view. My old lady would fight with herself in the mirror if there was no one else around. 

There are also vows of obedience, no personal property, everything communal, rising and retiring at the same time, all sorts of things impossible for a loner type like myself to adapt too.

Not saying it cannot work with a certain type of people. The Amish come to mind. But not the Diner group in my opinion.

If we met in a tavern every day instead of the net, half of us would be in the hospital with cracked skulls and gunshot wounds. :laugh: ;D

I realize your trying, and wish you my best, but my honest suggestion would be to show up at Knarf's door instead. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 05:49:09 AM by Golden Oxen »

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2017, 05:54:20 AM »
Of course.  Same as me GO.

Quote
But, we both are old guys who have some money.  We could in theory fund a small SUN Community, with younger Permaculture people like LD and WHD who know how to raise chickens.

Unfortunately, I have never been able to sell you on the concept.

RE

I have thought about it, and with no disrespect to you or your ideas find in an untenable solution.

As stated years back, my honest opinion is that a community of that idealistic type only works in the monastic model.

A Knarf type situation. Women, kids, differing political and religious views. Lack of a chief Abbot whose rule is absolute law etc. Those factors alone mitigate against it working. Just a dozen or so women living together in harmony is an impossibility in my view. My old lady would fight with herself in the mirror if there was no one else around. 

There are also vows of obedience, no personal property, everything communal, rising and retiring at the same time, all sorts of things impossible for a loner type like myself to adapt too.

Not saying it cannot work with a certain type of people. The Amish come to mind. But not the Diner group in my opinion.

If we met in a tavern every day instead of the net, half of us would be in the hospital with cracked skulls and gunshot wounds. :laugh: ;D

I realize your trying, and wish you my best, but my honest suggestion would be to show up at Knarf's door instead.

Your opinion is the problem in a nutshell.  It's a predicament.

RE
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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2017, 06:19:43 AM »
Your opinion is the problem in a nutshell.  It's a predicament.

Here are the fundamental problems:

1- The Old Guys have the money, but no knowledge or physical capability of doing all the work to raise chickens, goats, etc

2- The Young Guys have the ability, but no money to buy the land necessary

The "solution" I came up with to this was for the Old Guys to provide the money and the Young Guys to do the work.

I ran into a Problem with this idea though, which turned it into a Predicament:icon_scratch:

The problem is that you can't find Old Guys with money who will invest in such a project.

So everybody loses.  The Old Guys can't buy food at the grocery store anymore, and the Young Guys got no land to grow food on.  It's Lose-Lose this way.

Working together it could be Win-Win.  But if Old Guys won't cough up the money they have, it can't happen. Predicament.

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2017, 06:55:47 AM »
Your opinion is the problem in a nutshell.  It's a predicament.

Here are the fundamental problems:

1- The Old Guys have the money, but no knowledge or physical capability of doing all the work to raise chickens, goats, etc

2- The Young Guys have the ability, but no money to buy the land necessary

The "solution" I came up with to this was for the Old Guys to provide the money and the Young Guys to do the work.

I ran into a Problem with this idea though, which turned it into a Predicament:icon_scratch:

The problem is that you can't find Old Guys with money who will invest in such a project.

So everybody loses.  The Old Guys can't buy food at the grocery store anymore, and the Young Guys got no land to grow food on.  It's Lose-Lose this way.

Working together it could be Win-Win.  But if Old Guys won't cough up the money they have, it can't happen. Predicament.

RE

I agree with you Ox, about the monastic requirement.  JMG has written extensively about this in After Progress as well as at his blog.  If history is the guide here, than it's a rare exception to have an intentional community that lasts without a monastic quality...that quality being celibacy.  However, personally I want next to nothing to do with an intentional community.  This is a paradox, a problem perhaps, but no predicament.  I think there is a way to make something that resembles an intentional community, but is not "communal."  I think that looks more like feudalism.  Feudalism does work, especially during tough times, like the times we are coming into. 

That's why SUN has to have investors, so that we can set this thing up and it not be an intentional community.  It's not a "communal" thing because everything would be owned by the non-profit and there would be board members and then employees that just happen to live there as well as work there. 

Money is the thing that keeps it from happening.  What has to happen is that SUN's model has to be an attractive investment.  It needs to be a place for rich people to put there money for safe keeping.  We have billionaires buying apartments in silos for crying out loud, as if that's going to fucking work...it's not.  Why won't those same billionaires invest in a SUN type operation?  It can be profitable under the right circumstances. 

However those circumstances are so idealistic that they are almost impossible.  It would take years for a SUNspot to start making some type of profit.  Systems have to mature, and even then the "profit" would need to be sunk back into the endeavor.  What you can design is something resembling sustainable food/fuel/fiber/medicine producing systems that can help ensure a good quality of life in a low energy per capita future (the future we will get).

The SUN idea is a good idea.  What makes us different is that we are not an intentional community.  I've said that from the beginning.  We are a template for a way that will work in a low energy per capita future.  You have the money, you can design these systems that will work using permaculture and appropriate tech.  Without the money it doesn't work.  The return on investment for the philanthropist that funds this thing has to be about more than financial profit.  It has to be about doing what's right for the future generations.  It's time to get on the fucking lifeboat and start rowing to somewhere other than the place where the Titanic will sink to the bottom of Davey Jones Locker. 

Pie in the sky my friends.  SUN is possible  :icon_sunny: but unfortunately not very likely. 

Offline David B.

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2017, 08:00:45 AM »
I decided to concentrate on the low hanging fruit in my life and those I come in contact with.  I agree with a lot of the sun material but I find it two orders of magnitude removed from the familiar.  One order people can be convinced 2 orders causes too much resistance. Resistance for me represents I cannot get people to spend money on it and let me build it. Some examples:
-Smaller homes not tiny homes
-well insulated conventional structures not something new
-Wood heat in an efficient commercial woodstove that is available and insurable not rocket stoves
-good organic gardening techniques with crops people are familiar with and machinery based, not food forests
-solar power feeding traditional house wiring not dc voltage
-moving to co generational housing in clusters with like minded others not intentional communities
-efficient transport
If that world ever comes about it will be more ready for the next steps... pushed by my eco warrior children!
Best regards,   David Baillie   
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 08:17:14 AM by David Baillie »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2017, 08:21:59 AM »
All reasonable steps, imho. 

What commercial wood stoves are best?  So far, I only have a wood cook stove, which I have not even installed, as of yet. It is one of the older European ones, like this one, more or less.

http://www.tradad.com/cook_stoves.htm
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2017, 08:31:29 AM »
I decided to concentrate on the low hanging fruit in my life and those I come in contact with.  I agree with a lot of the sun material but I find it two orders of magnitude removed from the familiar.  One order people can be convinced 2 orders causes too much resistance. Resistance for me represents I cannot get people to spend money on it and let me build it. Some examples:
-Smaller homes not tiny homes
-well insulated conventional structures not something new
-Wood heat in an efficient commercial woodstove that is available and insurable not rocket stoves
-good organic gardening techniques with crops people are familiar with and machinery based, not food forests
-solar power feeding traditional house wiring not dc voltage
-moving to co generational housing in clusters with like minded others not intentional communities
-efficient transport
If that world ever comes about it will be more ready for the next steps... pushed by my eco warrior children!
Best regards,   David Baillie

I agree with you on most of that with the exception to the machinery based agriculture.  Why do you need the machines to be an integral part?  Sure, a tractor friendly food production, but beyond that it's not necessary.  I also think that you could slowly get out of the need for the tractor as an integral part of the design over time.  If you have enough people willing to work than you can begin to value human labor over machines, and you can pay them well in a good quality life where fiat currency maybe becomes unnecessary.  That's sort of feudalism again though, isn't it?

The thing is, you have to have a chain of command.  That's where the military has it correct.  If you want to get shit down, than you need people who know how to get that shit done without arguments.  You, as the inferior (due to rank) have to do as you are told because you may not have it correct due to less time and experience.  There definitely needs to be some recourse for new ideas that emerge however.  A static design will not be a permanent and successful one.  Things must change as conditions change.  That's where the permaculture design principles can't be beat IMO.  Creatively use and respond to change. 

What is lacking, for people like you and I David, is that we don't have the money to make these things a reality.  That is the predicament that RE speaks of.  However I'd argue that it is not a predicament.  It seems to be one, since we can't find the financial backing (we being SUN).  Something like it's just the nature of people with money to not want to give their money to non-profits like us?  I don't know.  What I do know is that nobody will so much as fart a check with a few digits on it our way. 

Hey Ox, want to be King?  I mean you are Goldfinger right?  Hoarding gold and shit at the bottom of your tower?  I don't think RE, Eddie, Surly, JW, GM, or Monsta (those are all diners I know IRL...I know Roamer and WHD but I'm not sure either of them are interested any longer) would argue much with you being king, if you were willing to cough up a million, maybe 2 million :icon_sunny:

I think I can deal with you being king because I think you'd be a reasonably nice and logical gentlemanly king.  I could be wrong though, some of those guys may argue you being king.  I'm just saying you seem to have the money to make it happen. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 08:43:02 AM by luciddreams »

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2017, 08:38:49 AM »
All reasonable steps, imho. 

What commercial wood stoves are best?  So far, I only have a wood cook stove, which I have not even installed, as of yet. It is one of the older European ones, like this one, more or less.

http://www.tradad.com/cook_stoves.htm

I'm with Orlov on this one.  I think a traditional Russian Stove is the best option for the heat.  Any of you guys read Shrinking the Technosphere yet?  It's an awesome book!  He devoted 2 pages to describing the Russian Stove in that book.  Why go with a consumer thing that needs machines to be made when you can make something better out of natural materials that you can find for next to free...or harvest yourself from nature which only requires your know how and time.  Natural solutions are more durable and repairable (however if done properly do not need repair...which is why often time with old structures all that is left standing is the fireplace in the middle of the woods). 

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2017, 08:42:05 AM »
Furthermore, I see good sense and logic in the initial set up being more conventional.  You can build the more natural alternatives over time as people become more interested and available.  You can always find young people who are willing to work for room and board to assist in the endeavor.  A real solution to the problem of how we design this thing will be dynamic in nature.  That I do know. 

Offline JRM

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2017, 08:52:57 AM »
Of course.  Same as me GO.

Quote
But, we both are old guys who have some money.  We could in theory fund a small SUN Community, with younger Permaculture people like LD and WHD who know how to raise chickens.

Unfortunately, I have never been able to sell you on the concept.

RE

I have thought about it, and with no disrespect to you or your ideas find in an untenable solution.

As stated years back, my honest opinion is that a community of that idealistic type only works in the monastic model.

A Knarf type situation. Women, kids, differing political and religious views. Lack of a chief Abbot whose rule is absolute law etc. Those factors alone mitigate against it working. Just a dozen or so women living together in harmony is an impossibility in my view. My old lady would fight with herself in the mirror if there was no one else around. 

There are also vows of obedience, no personal property, everything communal, rising and retiring at the same time, all sorts of things impossible for a loner type like myself to adapt too.

Not saying it cannot work with a certain type of people. The Amish come to mind. But not the Diner group in my opinion.

If we met in a tavern every day instead of the net, half of us would be in the hospital with cracked skulls and gunshot wounds. :laugh: ;D

I realize your trying, and wish you my best, but my honest suggestion would be to show up at Knarf's door instead.


Wow!  The level of pessimism and cynicism around here never fails to sadden me. 
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2017, 08:54:38 AM »
I was intending to do some rocket stove building, but I still haven't done it. I just checked the other day, and my materials to build the cast core are still good. Since the convo, I  did acquire a stainless steel 55 gal. drum for the outer part. I figured I'd build one for the greenhouse, and see how that worked out.

One of twenty or so projects ongoing, but not at any kind of serious pace.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline David B.

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 09:05:39 AM »
Eddie that stove looks like a variation of the Aga; famous amongst british rural farmhouses. It will burn anything at a slow simmer and is supposed to be great for slowcooking. Its emmisions are probably bad but nowhere near the traditional cookstove.  Wood cookstoves are almost extinct in Canada due to emmision standards and insurance requirements.  I really only know heat stoves Pacific energy, napoleon, Jotul, etc.
good link here: https://chimneysweeponline.com/wscompe.htm
This is my baby here although I have a water coil installed in mine. I like it because it is non Catalytic so no wear parts
https://chimneysweeponline.com/pacsup27.htm
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2017, 09:08:37 AM »
I was intending to do some rocket stove building, but I still haven't done it. I just checked the other day, and my materials to build the cast core are still good. Since the convo, I  did acquire a stainless steel 55 gal. drum for the outer part. I figured I'd build one for the greenhouse, and see how that worked out.

One of twenty or so projects ongoing, but not at any kind of serious pace.

That would be an awesome way for us to barter.  I'd love to gain the experience of building a rocket mass stove.  I speculate that David's main reason for not wanting a RMS is due to insurance.  They are not insurable, which is complete bullshit and just bureaucratically generated to mandate licensed jobs for insurance purposes no less.  It makes sense in McHouseville...which JHK has shown is a way of inhabiting the landscape that itself makes no sense. 

I happen to agree with JHK on that account...The Geography of Nowhere

I don't want to promote another geography of nowhere.  I want to promote a way of life that accepts the future we are going to get and not the one we are trying so desperately to wish into existence.  Again, JHK with is "psychology of previous investment" explanation. 

This new way can't consist of vaporware or planned obsolescence...which is pretty much what solar panels are.  Good appropriate tech, and cheap right now, but we need long term solutions, which is another area that permaculture addresses well.  Using solutions that will break down and be non-fixable in the future is sort of dumb isn't it? 

Again, a multi-pronged arrangement that allows for dissensus in it's design is necessary here.

I'll admit, I'm just trying to imagine a solution to our predicament...which is about like kicking water uphill.  However one can argue whether something is a predicament or not.  To say there are no solutions to something is pessimistic and may not be true.  Let the problem be the solution!  Too bad it can't be let the predicament be the solution.   

Offline David B.

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Re: Re: Summer in the tropical rainforest
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2017, 09:21:44 AM »
Lucid, I have experience with exactly 2 masonry heaters.  one was built from a castable core that was lowered by crane and transported from Quebec with the facade done by a local mason.  The second one was built in place by a master mason who took almost 2 months to build the thing.  Both of them had costs in excess of $30000.  The verdict of those massive builds?  they do work, you fire them twice a day in cold climates with a fast hot fire and let them burn out.  There isnt much joy to them though as you dont get that beautiful flame you associate with a fire. Also of not is they take up large amounts of square footage. Finally there is a difference between hot and warm enough to not die...  They put out medium amounts of heat over long periods keeping rooms warm but not really comfortable. I can accomplish the same thing with a $1500 wood stove, $200 of pex and 2 circulator motors.  Even assuming all my techno doo dads are not available I could double up drywall in my house, pour 1.5 inches of concrete on each floor even just install a passive water tank in the basement and acheive the same thing. They are cool but usually reserved for vanity projects.
All my humble opinions of course but based on 12 consecutive years heating with wood.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

 

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