AuthorTopic: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists  (Read 13717 times)

Offline RE

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Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« on: February 25, 2017, 05:48:51 AM »
If "impossibilist" was a word, I'd not be one of those.  But The Diner is populated mostly with impossiblists.

Diners have been name-called by a fellow Diner as being mostly "impossibilists".  I dispute this characterization.  More than 99% of the rest of the population, Diners actively seek to make possible a Better Tomorrow.

What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

2-  Take Political Action to help make a BT:  Surly with OWS and K-Dog as a Delegate for Bernie Sanders both qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.

5- Promote, Fund and Advertize a more Sustainable Future by Blogging & running a non-profit 501c3 corporation dedicated to this task:  RE, GM & LD all qualify.


So why do we get labelled as "impossibilists" by JRM?  Mainly because we generally agree that there will be a significant die off of the population of Homo Sap when cheap energy is not deliverable to all the systems we currently depend on to keep so many people alive on the planet.  Besides the Carz and McMansions, that includes all the water pumping and sewage treatment plants, all the tractors, fertilizer and pesticides produced by fossil fuels, and all the clothing manufactured with fossil fuels and shipped over the ocean using more fossil fuels.

Most of the Diners believe it is POSSIBLE for people to simplify their lives and become more self-sufficient and sustainable, but not for everybody currently walking the earth, or even everybody currently living in the FSoA.  Too many people are city-dependent on getting food from a grocery store and don't know the first thing about growing food.  Besides that, more than half the population doesn't have means to buy land to be able to try to do this even if they do have some knowledge.  Short of a Revolution and land redistribution this won't change, and a Revolution by itself would cause a lot of death and destruction.

What JRM doesn't like is the general consensus on the Diner that a large die off of the population of Homo Sap is inevitable coming down the pipe. He wants to believe it is possible to keep everyone alive living in peace & harmony with each other while a gradual reduction in population is undertaken, presumably through voluntary birth control and not forced sterilization.

While this is a noble ideal, it's just not very likely based on all of Human History.  Even I would not say it is "impossible" though, just highly unlikely.  Probability says that the outcome will be more like the general Diner consensus though.  Given this probablistic determination, the most effective use of your time, money and energy in preparation for the disappearance of fossil fuels from your community is to prepare for many people dying.  If you don't do this, you're just an Ostrich with your head plowed into the sand

If you want to find the REAL impossibilists, it's the folks over on Nature Bats Last following Dr. Death, Guy McSerpent.  GM has declared it is IMPOSSIBLE for any Homo Saps to survive anywhere on Planet Earth with a 4C rise in Average Global Temperature.  He has declared it to be IMPOSSIBLE to stop this Global Warming.  The Oceans will all die, and every last Homo Sap walking the earth today will be dead by Jan 1st, 2026.  Now THAT is a  true "impossibilist".

Here on the Diner, we are Possibilists who work toward a Better Tomorrow.  Characterizing most of us as Impossibilists is innaccurate and unfair name-calling.

RE
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 06:15:53 AM by RE »
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2017, 07:48:42 AM »
I would argue that I'm a "possibilist." 

What is possible?  That is the million dollar question.  It also happens to be what I'm most concerned with.  So, what is possible? 

What is certain is that we will get a lower energy per capital near future.  It's certain because of the finite nature of fossil fuels.  Simple analysis, no?  The solar panels that are popping up on every tenth house around here is testament to nothing more than the technotriumphalist delusion of infinite progress.  It won't save anything, and it's wrongheaded to begin with.  All of the sockets in our homes mostly power planned obsolescence.  They mostly deliver energy that is wasted on pointless distractions.  That's necessary so that we don't get busy doing things that matter. 

So what is possible?  What is necessary is a better question.  What is necessary is a new way forward.  What is needed is the vision to see what will work in the future.  Most people are enamored by their black mirrors, and they can't see anything beyond that gnarly reflection.  They don't care about anything beyond that reflection.  It's sad, but true.

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Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2017, 07:55:18 AM »
Actually, I did not call most Diners "impossibilists" exclusively because of the commonality of the view, here, that there will be a mass die off when the demand for energy far outstrips the supply.  I do agree that event will happen. I deny that it MUST be so abrupt that humankind cannot meet it's adaptive challenge.

But it's not just that, here in the Diner.  The accusation of generalized "impossibilism" also has to do with the topic at hand when I invented the word "impossibilist" (I suppose I invented it. Maybe not. Hmm.)  Diners are also generally impossibilists about suchlike as the possibility of extraordinary and deliberate social or political change.  A wet blanket gets tossed on nearly every or any idea about taking action in the world which isn't only very personal and private action.  In other words, there is a great deal of skepticism in the Diner about what I call "resistance and renewal".  Many times I have suggested that such skepticism and doubt are hardly unique to the Diner population, but characteristic of many people in our time -- which is a time in which cynicism and doubt about such things is quite the popular attitude among the well-informed.  (Those who are not well-informed about the true nature of our planetary ecological and social crises have no such tendency toward that crisis, being out of the loop altogether.)  Many times I've spoken of a self-fulfilling prophesy at work with such beliefs and attitudes.  Those who hold such attitudes not only tend to propagate those same attitudes in the world but also tend to be disengaged in the social sphere on account of their "nothing can be done" belief.   

I'm considered by some in the Diner to be an optimist.  But I am not an optimist by most dictionary definitions.  I'm just closer to that end of the spectrum than most Diners.  Optimism, to me, is just as distorted and distorting view of the world as is pessimism.  What I am is a possibilist about deliberately cultivated social and political change. Most Diners are not.  I'm also a possibilist when it comes to the possibility of humanity meeting the rather extraordinary adaptive challenge which all humans are now facing, which are adaptive challenges which Diners are well aware of.  They are:
anthropogenic climate change, financial / monetary fragility, corporate capture of government, peak net energy and declining fossil fuel....  All of these in combination are called a "clusterfuck".  I acknowledge that this clusterfuck is indeed unfolding in our world.  But I say they represent an adaptive challenge, not the conditions in which something like 90% of the world population must die in an abrupt die-off. 

I have, over my years in here, explained ... over and over again, why it is that we can meet the adaptive challenge of peak net energy and peak fossil fuels -- or energy decline without mass die-off.  My theory of that transition could be called The Overboard Method (TOM).  TOM says that those living in the so-called "developed world" use vastly more energy (especially in the form of coal, oil, natural gas -- non-renewables) than is necessary for their survival, or even than is necessary for a high quality of life.   TOM says that first-worlders will "throw overboard" (as if on a sinking ship at sea) those things which are causing their boat to sink, or which have become impossible to sustain).  The worst offenders will be thrown out first, such as the car culture.  It will be abandoned -- tossed into the sea.  This will not result in a situation which should require a mass die-off.  We've never REALLY depended on private automobiles half as much as we have imagined or pretended to.  People these days cling to car culture for various reasons, but absolute necessity isn't really one of them.  No one really ever did have no other choice than to live 20, 30, 50 miles from their workplace, for example.  They enjoy living out in the country, perhaps, but the work is in the city.  When car culture ends they will begin living much more close to where they work -- and where they shop, etc.   But car culture is just one example.  We've also never really depended on natural gas or electricity for home heating half as much as we have imagined or pretended.  Where I live, most of the houses could have been built in such a way that the sun would heat our homes through our cold high desert winters.  We get lots of sun here, and some local houses don't use any heat other than from the sun -- so we know this can be done. Through retrofitting along with improved insulation, most of these houses can be made to get most of their needed winter heating from the sun.  Hot water sources (bathing, showering, etc.) need not be gas or electric, either.  Solar water heating is entirely possible here.

No one ever really needed to live with one or two people in three or four thousand square foot houses, either.  If those houses are still being occupied as we throw things overboard TOM's way, they will be occupied by more people per square foot.  Probably a lot more.

What we do with energy, for the most part, is waste it.  When we cut out that waste, we'll discover that we do not simply die off. 

Unless!  Unless our financial system abruptly collapses because this reduction in consumption undermines it's feasibility, sending it into a tail spin because of the mountains of unserviceable dept lingering in now useless hulks of things called banks.  That's an adaptive challenge we should do something about as soon as possible, because that financial collapse could happen at any moment -- resulting in a failure of our delivery systems for pretty much all things, including necessities like food and water.

It's NOT impossible to repair the fragility in our financial systems so that we can buy enough time to unfold TOM.  TOM is doable.  He's a handsome fellow.

It's also NOT impossible to bring down the giant menace which is the fossil fuel industry, which threatens us with even worse climate problems down the trail.

It's NOT impossible to address corporate capture of our governments, thus installing systems which are much more genuinely democratic, and which serve our real political and social needs.

We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2017, 08:23:49 AM »


We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.

Well that's not true because you are attempting the impossible here on the Diner. 

As I have said, I appreciate your perspective, but I don't agree.

Now, attitude can get you a long way.  If the right attitude is associated with an intelligent will, than a lot of Earth can be moved.  That is true in our personal lives.  We can fashion a reality within the realm of possibility, but there is that pesky probability to work with.  There are things that are possible and then there are more things that are probably...like a lower energy per capita future with a lot less homo sapiens walking around eating shit, much higher cancer rates compliments of Fukupukey, much less diversity by way of species on planet Earth, sea food as myth, more watery water in the ocean, and more profit from weapons of mass destruction manufacture.  Those things are all probable.  Those things, are in fact, certain.

Enough informed Merikans getting together to address the real problems we are facing is improbable.  Lot's of Merikans massing in the streets to protest the reality of our shrinking pie is inevitable.  They will protest about a ding-a-ling-a-ling in the urinal free public restroom.  Oh my, it might rape a vagina!!!  It's not a ding-a-ling...it's an oversized clitoris.  There have always been lady boys.  And!  We don't need laws associated.  You can do whatever you want to behind close doors as consenting adults.  Get over it...

but that is what they are all up in arms about.  That and the gaul of Dump with his stupid hair. 

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2017, 08:32:31 AM »
I'm certainly not an impossibilist.  I've always considered the steps I'm taking to be more of a harvester of low hanging fruit.  Obvious easier first steps to be taken by a creature of the very comfortable world I was born into.  Energy efficiency, small living, local food production, bartering, fossil fuel replacement.  I'm only 30 percent there as yet but the process is accelerating.  I'll leave it to the cultural analysts to figure out if the positive acceleration can overcome the drag failing systems are imposing. It's a race without a finish line with huge hidden obstacles as yet unknown that could easily swamp you or you could just as easily sail around them.  You just don't know until you go out there and TRY; Your risk of failure is 100 percent if you dont.
Best regards, David Baillie
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 09:48:51 AM by David Baillie »
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Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 08:34:42 AM »
Actually, I did not call most Diners "impossibilists" exclusively because of the commonality of the view, here, that there will be a mass die off when the demand for energy far outstrips the supply.  I do agree that event will happen. I deny that it MUST be so abrupt that humankind cannot meet it's adaptive challenge.

But it's not just that, here in the Diner.  The accusation of generalized "impossibilism" also has to do with the topic at hand when I invented the word "impossibilist" (I suppose I invented it. Maybe not. Hmm.)  Diners are also generally impossibilists about suchlike as the possibility of extraordinary and deliberate social or political change.  A wet blanket gets tossed on nearly every or any idea about taking action in the world which isn't only very personal and private action.  In other words, there is a great deal of skepticism in the Diner about what I call "resistance and renewal".  Many times I have suggested that such skepticism and doubt are hardly unique to the Diner population, but characteristic of many people in our time -- which is a time in which cynicism and doubt about such things is quite the popular attitude among the well-informed.  (Those who are not well-informed about the true nature of our planetary ecological and social crises have no such tendency toward that crisis, being out of the loop altogether.)  Many times I've spoken of a self-fulfilling prophesy at work with such beliefs and attitudes.  Those who hold such attitudes not only tend to propagate those same attitudes in the world but also tend to be disengaged in the social sphere on account of their "nothing can be done" belief.   

I'm considered by some in the Diner to be an optimist.  But I am not an optimist by most dictionary definitions.  I'm just closer to that end of the spectrum than most Diners.  Optimism, to me, is just as distorted and distorting view of the world as is pessimism.  What I am is a possibilist about deliberately cultivated social and political change. Most Diners are not.  I'm also a possibilist when it comes to the possibility of humanity meeting the rather extraordinary adaptive challenge which all humans are now facing, which are adaptive challenges which Diners are well aware of.  They are:
anthropogenic climate change, financial / monetary fragility, corporate capture of government, peak net energy and declining fossil fuel....  All of these in combination are called a "clusterfuck".  I acknowledge that this clusterfuck is indeed unfolding in our world.  But I say they represent an adaptive challenge, not the conditions in which something like 90% of the world population must die in an abrupt die-off. 

I have, over my years in here, explained ... over and over again, why it is that we can meet the adaptive challenge of peak net energy and peak fossil fuels -- or energy decline without mass die-off.  My theory of that transition could be called The Overboard Method (TOM).  TOM says that those living in the so-called "developed world" use vastly more energy (especially in the form of coal, oil, natural gas -- non-renewables) than is necessary for their survival, or even than is necessary for a high quality of life.   TOM says that first-worlders will "throw overboard" (as if on a sinking ship at sea) those things which are causing their boat to sink, or which have become impossible to sustain).  The worst offenders will be thrown out first, such as the car culture.  It will be abandoned -- tossed into the sea.  This will not result in a situation which should require a mass die-off.  We've never REALLY depended on private automobiles half as much as we have imagined or pretended to.  People these days cling to car culture for various reasons, but absolute necessity isn't really one of them.  No one really ever did have no other choice than to live 20, 30, 50 miles from their workplace, for example.  They enjoy living out in the country, perhaps, but the work is in the city.  When car culture ends they will begin living much more close to where they work -- and where they shop, etc.   But car culture is just one example.  We've also never really depended on natural gas or electricity for home heating half as much as we have imagined or pretended.  Where I live, most of the houses could have been built in such a way that the sun would heat our homes through our cold high desert winters.  We get lots of sun here, and some local houses don't use any heat other than from the sun -- so we know this can be done. Through retrofitting along with improved insulation, most of these houses can be made to get most of their needed winter heating from the sun.  Hot water sources (bathing, showering, etc.) need not be gas or electric, either.  Solar water heating is entirely possible here.

No one ever really needed to live with one or two people in three or four thousand square foot houses, either.  If those houses are still being occupied as we throw things overboard TOM's way, they will be occupied by more people per square foot.  Probably a lot more.

What we do with energy, for the most part, is waste it.  When we cut out that waste, we'll discover that we do not simply die off. 

Unless!  Unless our financial system abruptly collapses because this reduction in consumption undermines it's feasibility, sending it into a tail spin because of the mountains of unserviceable dept lingering in now useless hulks of things called banks.  That's an adaptive challenge we should do something about as soon as possible, because that financial collapse could happen at any moment -- resulting in a failure of our delivery systems for pretty much all things, including necessities like food and water.

It's NOT impossible to repair the fragility in our financial systems so that we can buy enough time to unfold TOM.  TOM is doable.  He's a handsome fellow.

It's also NOT impossible to bring down the giant menace which is the fossil fuel industry, which threatens us with even worse climate problems down the trail.

It's NOT impossible to address corporate capture of our governments, thus installing systems which are much more genuinely democratic, and which serve our real political and social needs.

We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.

Sadly, Wet Blanket time has arrived again. :(


Indeed, here in the 1st World we WASTE a huge amount of energy.  So if you could somehow more equitably distribute the energy, you might be abe to keep more people alive longer.  But the problem here is infrastructure and how the system was built out.  It's all designed to take energy from far flung corners of the earth and deliver it to a few central locations.  That's what all the Pipeline building is about.  In fact, we can't really afford to keep the current pipelines maintained in the locations they do exist, and there is no way that new pipelines and refineries and electric grids will be built out into places like India.  So a fair and equitable distribution of the remaining energy is unlikely to occur.

The next issue is that of building a huge Social Movement that will change the overall direction here.  We witnessed what occured with OWS, and now again with Standing Rock.  Thousands of people gathered to protest, but in the end the inertia of the juggernaut was too large for them to overcome.  Even protests which draw MILLIONS such as those recently in Romania don't stop the juggernaut.  In the end, it can only stop itself, which it will when it runs out of the energy necessary to run a Global War Machine.

I write on the internet in my small effort to reach more people and say what I think it is possible to accomplish here, within reasonable limits based on what has occured before in Human History.  It is not "necrophilia", nor am I an "Impossibilist", nor am I Stupid or Ignorant, and I resent being characterized by all these labels.  J am just making my best analysis of what I consider is most likely to occur, and what a given person can best do to prepare for the likely eventuality.

As to how quickly the die off of the population will occur, that is an open question.  It could be spread over as much as 50 years as a reasonable WAG.  But even spread over 50 years, this is 100s of millions of people dying every year in excess of the number still being born.  In all of WWII, around 60M people were estimated to have died, and that is over 6 years, so 10M/year.

Then of course you have vested interests, the Elite mainly here who wish to maintain control and privilege.  Unseating these folks from their positions of power is quite difficult as long as they have the Military and the Militarized Police protecting their power and privilege.  The kind of uprising globally you would need to accomplish that task is far larger than even 1M people surrounding the White House and Congress, and this level of organization on this scale is really unlikely. Not impossible mind you, just the probability is less than you winning the Lotto twice in a row.

So all in all, you're set up here for a pretty fast crash of Industrial Civilization, and making gross changes on the grand scale very unlikely.  So I council to put your energies toward more local solutions, where maybe you can have a little effect for a few people.  If of course you can raise the $MONEY$ you need to do it.  ::)

RE
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Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2017, 11:43:41 AM »
What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.
I'm insulted, RE, not being mentioned though I qualify on these three items -- arguably more so than other Diners listed.

1. Let's pony up here: how many of us live on less (a quite a bit less) than $20k/year because spending time chasing cash income takes away from time spent prepsteading?  We qualify for Earned Income Credit, taking money BACK from Uncle Sam.  If we didn't grow a lot of our own food, we'd be in trouble.

3.  Duh!  (I'll accept that I qualify among "other Lurkers".)

4.  We live where we work, and avoid driving to town unless we must.  If I didn't have to drive my salvaged '82 Chevy 1-ton dually flatbed to the local mill (16 mile round trip) to restock our feed warehouse, I could go for weeks on end without leaving the property.  Have the bikes for local stops and recreation.

As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2017, 12:52:37 PM »
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
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Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2017, 12:54:38 PM »
@JRM

As I see it, warning of massive die-off is the way to educate. What RE is saying is that IF nations don't IMMEDIATELY stop their wasteful nature AND IMMEDIATELY retool infrastructure to let people live at hugely lower material standard of living THEN there will be massive die-off. RE does not think the conditions will be met and hence the consequence will happen. (I also don't think the conditions will be met, though I do give a low but non-negligible chance of the conditions being met through a military takeover following a thorough financial/economic meltdown.)

But of course this message is not generally heard. You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2017, 01:10:39 PM »
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:12:56 PM by David Baillie »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2017, 01:12:00 PM »
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.
Key Word: Collectively.
I'm one puny termite. A house I cannot bring down in my lifetime.
Hook me up with those other thousands that can get something done, and I'm all in.
But they have to be doing something real, not just making noise and piles of trash.
I've wasted way too much of my time and resource with groups (all sought to become, or already were some sort of bona fide organization or institution) which ended up spinning a lot of wheels going nowhere truly useful.  But gosh, they felt good about themselves while doing it.
The planet would be better off if I'd stayed home and made compost.
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2017, 01:15:53 PM »
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

The planet would be better off if I'd stayed home and made compost.
Thank you that made me laugh. How often I have felt the same way!
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2017, 01:35:08 PM »
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.

You have to understand that our states rights were already lost in a bloody war (at least two of my GG Grandfathers died in it), which was all about the consolidation of federal power. There is no way for a split to happen here until such time as the federal armies can no longer be financially and logistically supported. Talk of secession is just that, talk, and cheap talk at that. the last thing TPTB want is any loss of centralized control over us tax donkeys.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2017, 02:31:08 PM »
@JRM

".... You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?

There is no single answer or strategy for this.  Instead, the project requires a lot of people experimenting, playing, working, trying... lots and lots of different things -- but not in isolation from one another. Rather, in dialogue with one another.  A MOVEMENT is required, in other words, and not a top-down, centralized one with one, two or three basic and universal and un-changing (non-adapting) strategies.  Some will attempt to transform schools k-12, others high schools, others universities. Others, media. 

Our experimental, exploratory and adapting strategies would not be wildly willy-nilly, however, but would be based on a sound and thoroughgoing mapping and diagnosing of our situation ... in at least three dimensions (meaning simply that our map and diagnosis represents a serious and ongoing, deepening encounter with the actual territory to be mapped and diagnosed).  It addresses the real world vis-a-vis a good map.  It acurately diagnoses and treats our patient.  It isn't bullshit, in other words -- and that's a lot of its attraction and appeal in this current insane asylum we call our culture / society.  Which is a madhouse of carnival mirrors, distortions, lies, fraud and wild ignorance.

We appeal to our better human attributes, like kindness, warmth, affection, care for one another, care for life, sharing, cooperation -- and we create living examples of real world places (micro-eutopias (e.g., ecovillages) semi-macro-eutopias (e.g.,  the emerging Cascadia [bioregional]).

All the things we need to have happen are happening, but without the almost explosive expansion rate necessary -- which is to say we've not yet reached "critical mass" as a movement.  What I'm calling for here is enthusiastic movement building rather than wet blankets. 
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2017, 04:02:32 PM »
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.

You have to understand that our states rights were already lost in a bloody war (at least two of my GG Grandfathers died in it), which was all about the consolidation of federal power. There is no way for a split to happen here until such time as the federal armies can no longer be financially and logistically supported. Talk of secession is just that, talk, and cheap talk at that. the last thing TPTB want is any loss of centralized control over us tax donkeys.

Regional breakup is inevitable for both the FSoA and Canada as the access to cheap energy diminishes.  It basically will arrive together with the collapse of the monetary system.  Likely to come with it is a protracted Civil War in both countries.  A while back I identified the 8 main regions on the NA continent that each could be self sufficient in resources, although to differing levels of total population. The Pacific Northwest & Cascadia for example has the best water supply and can support more people then the Southwest, which puts Mexico, TX, NM, & AZ together.  The Northeast has good water too, but there the population density is too high and so that neighborhood will experience the most extreme dieoff in gross numbers.  Alaska is basicall it's own beast and isolated from all the other regions.

RE
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