AuthorTopic: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists  (Read 13755 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2017, 04:12:18 PM »
What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.
I'm insulted, RE, not being mentioned though I qualify on these three items -- arguably more so than other Diners listed.

1. Let's pony up here: how many of us live on less (a quite a bit less) than $20k/year because spending time chasing cash income takes away from time spent prepsteading?  We qualify for Earned Income Credit, taking money BACK from Uncle Sam.  If we didn't grow a lot of our own food, we'd be in trouble.

3.  Duh!  (I'll accept that I qualify among "other Lurkers".)

4.  We live where we work, and avoid driving to town unless we must.  If I didn't have to drive my salvaged '82 Chevy 1-ton dually flatbed to the local mill (16 mile round trip) to restock our feed warehouse, I could go for weeks on end without leaving the property.  Have the bikes for local stops and recreation.

As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg

Mea Culpa FM!  I knew I would forget somebody.  ::)

Anyhow, you're a definite Possiblist, not Impossiblist since you're actively doing what you can to improve the situation.

As far as some massive global movement goes which will tear down the MIC, educate people to better living on the grand scale, solve resource depletion and population overshoot, all at the same time?  Another one of those highly unlikely events.  You have to plan realistically,not hope for fairy dust to arrive and solve the problems.  What you are doing is realistic.  It makes CFS.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2017, 04:58:16 PM »
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

This analogy perfectly conveys the potential power of social and political movements.  They are comprised of people who are basically powerless strictly on the level of the individual.  As the coordinated, intelligent activity of a kind of intelligent hive, they can -- and have -- work(ed) miracles.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2017, 05:12:16 PM »
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

This analogy perfectly conveys the potential power of social and political movements.  They are comprised of people who are basically powerless strictly on the level of the individual.  As the coordinated, intelligent activity of a kind of intelligent hive, they can -- and have -- work(ed) miracles.

I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2017, 05:21:05 PM »
@JRM

As I see it, warning of massive die-off is the way to educate. What RE is saying is that IF nations don't IMMEDIATELY stop their wasteful nature AND IMMEDIATELY retool infrastructure to let people live at hugely lower material standard of living THEN there will be massive die-off. RE does not think the conditions will be met and hence the consequence will happen. (I also don't think the conditions will be met, though I do give a low but non-negligible chance of the conditions being met through a military takeover following a thorough financial/economic meltdown.)

But of course this message is not generally heard. You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?

As many of us here in The Diner well know, if enough people in the so-called 'developed'  world, or 'first world', abandon mass consumerism and mass consumption to live much more materially simple and appropriate lives (appropriate in an ecological sense), this will crash or economy.  Few of us here  in The Diner have bought into the various pathetic myths about all of this, which are the popular mainstream myths, tropes and memes.  But many Americans have deeply internalized the quite mistaken view that economic growth is essentially and always the highest, most necessary and best thing for humans to do.  It's not going to be easy for "us" -- whoever "we" are -- to challenge this very cult-like belief system, even with a mountain of facts and explanations.  At least not with those prone to cultish mentalities.

I for one think most Americans essentially identify High Consumption (and 'Standard of Living') with Quality of Life, which, when I investigated that question, turned out to be wildly false.  There is almost zero necessary correlation between these two. Which is to say that one can have a very high quality of life at a relatively low "standard of living" -- which is largely measured in terms of consumption.

The gaping chasm between quality of life (QOL) and standard of living (SOL) is near the heart of the educational project I have in mind, because when folks begin to imagine a way of life and a culture based on much lower consumption they generally will knee-jerk associate lower consumption (e.g., fo fossil fuels) with LACK and POVERTY.   But MOST  of that is pure negative fantasy.  It's not a fact at all.  It's not even close to being a fact.  It's a total falsehood, really.  And that this is demonstrably true should, in my opinion, be at the very center of our educational project.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2017, 05:38:07 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

What is an example of a figurative and secular miracle in history?

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2017, 05:38:29 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages. 
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2017, 06:43:04 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 06:47:28 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE


Naturally, I expected you to say that. 
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2017, 06:53:31 PM »
As far as some massive global movement goes which will tear down the MIC, educate people to better living on the grand scale, solve resource depletion and population overshoot, all at the same time?  Another one of those highly unlikely events.  You have to plan realistically,not hope for fairy dust to arrive and solve the problems.  What you are doing is realistic.  It makes CFS.
My motto is hope for the best, be prepared for the worst, and expect something you never even thought of.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2017, 07:12:22 PM »
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE


Naturally, I expected you to say that.

Yes, and I expect your "solutions" to continue to feature Miracles, Pixie Dust and a big Global Movement with everyone singing Kumbaya together.  ::)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CktNV97ga9Y" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/CktNV97ga9Y</a>

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2017, 07:37:58 PM »
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2017, 07:45:56 PM »
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline RE

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2017, 07:55:57 PM »
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...

Then you sprinkle on Pixie Dust, Pray for a Miracle and have the Band play Kumbaya.

RE
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Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 08:05:05 PM »
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...
Then you sprinkle on Pixie Dust, Pray for a Miracle and have the Band play Kumbaya.

RE
No pixie dust, RE.
My point is that rather than scurrying around like an idiot (re-arranging the chairs) do something useful, prepare for the inevitable using what you have available -- you might just have a chance at saving your fat sorry ass.
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

 

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