AuthorTopic: For Whom the Bell Tolls  (Read 10904 times)

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »
We saw the "Arab Spring", perhaps it is now time for the "Powerz Fall"! ?   :-\   Happy Mabon! 

I think you are quite correct that the large countries are all going to fracture, the timetable eludes me though.  Something between four months and four decades.   I would prefer sooner, so it will probably be later! :(
"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." -  Simon and Garfunkel

Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2012, 03:47:13 PM »
RE and friends-my first visit to the diner (except for that LONG thread last week a friend sent me, which clued me in to your presence). Great post-what I so often bemoan about of MSM is the paucity of context and historical perspective, so it's refreshing to find that in your writings, RE. And the great Metallica video! Reminds me of Dave Cohens blog (are you banned there? Hope not-he's also an astute observer) Looking forward to more!

Welcome aboard the Diner PD! :hi:

You arrived just in time to see the First Annual Darwin Award issued to a Diner!   :icon_mrgreen:

Which Long Thread got sent to you?

Never read Dave Cohens, so I'm not Banned there yet, far as I know anyhow.  :icon_sunny:

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Offline pansceptic

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2012, 05:32:07 PM »
RE, this is another well-written, thought-provoking article, thank you!  I wish the process of decentralization could occur peacefully, but central authorities won't let go of dissident regions (or people, think Kurds in Iraq and Turkey) without a fight :(

Flight 2 Quality, you wrote:
"Countries in USSR knew EXACTLY what they were fighting for. They'd had three generations to think about it."

The USA may be more unstable than it appears; the old Confederacy also has had about 3 generations to think about it.  I grew up in Dixie; I was about 10 years old before I learned that Damned Yankee wasn't one word :)

By the end of the War of Secession, in many areas of the South it had devolved into a guerilla war.  The Union solders in turn had begun brutal repression of the civilian population (burning homes, barns and crops, stealing productive equipment, etc) to try to deprive the guerillas of support.  This in turn converted remaining (passive) Union sympathizers into active Confederates.  In this same type of war the Big Assed Military still isn't doing well; it lost badly in Vietnam and is in the process of losing in Afghanistan.  When the time comes, it will lose in Dixie as well.

Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2012, 05:55:30 PM »

The USA may be more unstable than it appears; the old Confederacy also has had about 3 generations to think about it.  I grew up in Dixie; I was about 10 years old before I learned that Damned Yankee wasn't one word :)

...When the time comes, it will lose in Dixie as well.

What goes round, comes round.


Back with my wife in Tennessee, when one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see, there go the Robert E.Lee"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if the money's no good
Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest
But they should never have taken the very best
 

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Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 04:54:16 PM »
Spanish Military Threatens Treason As Catalonia Seeks Secession Referendum
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/24/2012 13:51 -0400


"Do not play with the feelings of the Catalans" is the totally unveiled threat after Catalonia's beggars-can-be-choosers demand for an unconditional bailout fell on deaf ears. The traditionally separatist-minded province has decided, according to ANSAmed, has decided to pull a Greece - and escalate with a move to secession. A resolution, on the right of the Catalan people to cut off ties with the Spanish state, will be voted on Thursday by the regional parliament.

 



 

This statement of "the will of Catalan people to vote on the bond with the State of Spain" opens the way for forthcoming elections on November 25 to become a referendum on the sovereignty of Catalonia.

 

The Spanish military are not taking this lying down with the counter-threat that these 'separatists' and their 'inappropriate and unacceptable' threat to break-up Spain shall be, according to El Economista, charged with high treason. We are sure Draghi has a 'grand plan' for this.

 

Via ANSAmed: Spain: Catalan Parliament will vote on right of independence

(ANSAmed) - Madrid, September 24 - The parties which played a central role in the National Day of Catalonia on September 11, 2012 are now working on a statement on the right of the Catalan people to cut off the tie with the Spanish state.

 

The resolution will be voted on Thursday by the regional parliament, at the end of the general debate due to start tomorrow. To the writing of the resolution on sovereignty, which is not binding, are participating the following parties: Convergencia i Union (CiU), the ruling party in the Generalitat, with 62 deputies; Iniciativa (ICV-Euia), with 10 deputies; Esquerra Republicana (ERC), 10 deputies, the independents of Solidaritat, 3 deputies, and Joan Laporta.

 

The Popular Party (PP) (18 deputies) and Ciutadans (3) are against the initiative, while the Socialist Party (PSC, 28) proposes to move towards the construction of a federal state.

 

According to Spanish media, the statement won't be only a proposition, as others rated in the past by the Catalan room, but goes further, and expresses "the will of Catalan people to vote on the bond with the State of Spain".

 

In addition to this, it opens the way for forthcoming elections which may already take place on November 25, and a referendum on the sovereignity of Catalonia, claimed by parties supporting a national indipendence. A decision which, as indicated by the Catalan President Artur Mas, must be taken by the majority of the Parliament.

 

After the refusal of the government of Mariano Rajoy of a fiscal pact with Catalonia - a privileged system of financing, such as those in the Basque Country and in Navarre - Mas said that it was time to take a step forward, even with the a referendum for indipendence.

 

For his part, the Secretary General of Convergence (CDC), Oriol Pujol, declared to be "skeptical about a dialogue" suggested on Saturday by Prime Minister Rajoy, to check the possibility of an agreement on the financing of Catalonia. He also urged the Prime Minister to take initiative and "Do not play with the feelings of the Catalans".

 

According to La Vanguardia, the model for the new Catalonia would be Scotland. (ANSAmed).

 

Via El Economista: (Google Translate'd) But military warn of the consequences of promoting "fracture of Spain"

Spanish Military Association (SMA) has warned Monday that those who cooperate or allow "fracture" of Spain should "respond with all the utmost rigor" in the courts in the field of military courts by the "serious charge high treason. "

 

In a statement, the association warns that "the highest office" and "governments" should take "appropriate action immediately to remove any hint of secession without armed forces look serious and unpardonable in tessitura to comply scrupulously strictly with the mission and that the Constitution gives them to ensure the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of our country. "

 

"If it had unfortunately-warn-act, there must be no doubt that those who have allowed, participated or assisted in reaching this last time but repeated threat of fracture of Spain, by commission, omission or out of your constitutional positions shall be accountable to the fullest extent of all so serious charge of treason before the courts in the field of military jurisdiction. "

 

For this association, the attitude of the president of the Generalitat of Catalonia, Artur Mas, and members "separatists" of Parliament is "inappropriate and unacceptable" and "not consistent with any of the ways with the duty and responsibility as representatives of the state, are required to observe and exercise ".

 

According to AME, current events in Catalonia are the result of "a frightening economic crisis and other manifestly disastrous political management by the formations that incur a high treason to voluntarily maintain a system of electoral representation that encourages the emergence and establishment of separatist nationalism to give in to his blackmail votes to stay in power. "

 

This association, which is not registered in the Register of Professional Associations of members of the Armed Forces, created in light of the Bill of Rights and Duties of the military-is chaired by retired Colonel Leopoldo Munoz and is mainly composed of former members of hosts and Navy
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Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2012, 03:35:19 PM »
Plenty more today on ZH and from Ambrose on the brewing Spanish Civil War.  Also Surly got up the stuff from RT on DD Facepalm.  I'll get Ambrose's latest up over in the Ambrose thread.

The newz reports are saying "10s of thousands" surrounding Parliament in Madrid, but those pics to me look like 100s of thousands.  The fact also the market took such a dive today indicates that things are more serious than the MSM suggests.

Perhaps the most interesting thing I read so far today is with respect to the "Legality" of Secession in Spain (probably here too).  Apparently it is "Illegal" to hold a Referendum where the People can Vote on whether they want to be a part of the Nation-State or form a New one.  IOW, even if 100% of the people living in a given territory want to Seceed and form their own New Country, there is no "Legal" means for them to do so in a Peaceful manner.

Quote from: John F. Kennedy
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

Welcome to the Hotel California, where you can Check Out but you can never Leave.

The other thing that perpetually surprises me is that even when 10s of thousands or even MILLIONS of their Countrymen are out in the Street in Protest that the Gestapo will continue to Follow Orders and beat the shit out of women, old men and dogs too.  Amazing what people will do for a Paycheck, eh?

Anyhow, besides the Gestapo continuing to beat heads, fire rubber bullets and tear gas etc, according to Ambrose the Army is threatening to try for Treason anybody who pushes for Secession.  Trying Civilians in Military Courts is ALSO considered "Illegal", but apparently that Legality isn't as important as the No Referendum/No Democracy Legalities.

Sadly of course for the Spaniards, Seceeding won't solve their problems at all.  The Catalonians boast that if they were Independent they would be among the Top 50 Exporting Countries of the World, but they NEGLECT to mention that they also are and Oil IMPORTER.  They can't Export enough to pay for the Oil they Import, that really is the problem in all the Industrialized countries and why every one of them runs up endless deficits.

Tyler Durden in his typical Piglet fashion blames their financial problems on Goobermint Corruption and Socialism, even though in theory at least he is aware of Peak Oil and the Energy requirements of running an Industrialized nation.  Although just about every Goobermint is Corrupt, that is not the real source of the problem.  The source of the problem is that once the Oil gets too expensive, one by one entire Nation States lose access to Credit to buy said Oil.  Becoming an Independent Nation State won't solve that problem for the Catalans, in fact it will make it worse.

Catalans aren't any more prepared to go back to Lights Off Horse and Buggy time anymore than anyone else is.  Changing Goobermints won't help their situation, by Peaceful OR violent means.  It just accelerates their slide into the Abyss.

Will anyone in Power ever stand up and Speak the Truth here?  I guess not.  Sad situation indeed for the Catalans now, and for everyone else in the industrialized world also soon enough.

Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You.

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Offline Surly1

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2012, 03:39:20 PM »
The only person who is speaking the truth, and who has done so to power, is Chris Hedges. His article buried in the Diner: http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=812.msg9224;topicseen#msg9224

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Offline WHD

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2012, 04:02:51 PM »
Quote
The Catalonians boast that if they were Independent they would be among the Top 50 Exporting Countries of the World, but they NEGLECT to mention that they also are and Oil IMPORTER.  They can't Export enough to pay for the Oil they Import, that really is the problem in all the Industrialized countries and why every one of them runs up endless deficits.

Tyler Durden in his typical Piglet fashion blames their financial problems on Goobermint Corruption and Socialism, even though in theory at least he is aware of Peak Oil and the Energy requirements of running an Industrialized nation.  Although just about every Goobermint is Corrupt, that is not the real source of the problem.  The source of the problem is that once the Oil gets too expensive, one by one entire Nation States lose access to Credit to buy said Oil.  Becoming an Independent Nation State won't solve that problem for the Catalans, in fact it will make it worse.

How true. My guess is, like elsewhere in the "developed" world, there aren't 1 in 100,000 Catalans thinking about the end of oil. Any bets on when Balkanization comes to head-up-MSM-ass Amerika?

Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2012, 04:07:24 PM »
The only person who is speaking the truth, and who has done so to power, is Chris Hedges. His article buried in the Diner: http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=812.msg9224;topicseen#msg9224

I am told that dog food is actually very nutritious.

Chris Hedges indeed speaks the TRUTH here TO those in power (I think he testified before a Congressional Committee at one point), the PROBLEM is that those IN Power don't speak the truth BACK to the PEOPLE.  I guess under the rubric of "they can't HANDLE the TRUTH".

Quite a few people are speaking the truth here in the Blogosphere, Elvis does on Economic Undertow, Gail sorta does on Our Finite World with a lot of white washing to make her articles palatable to Bizness Insider and Jimmy Kuntsler does in his NASCAR bashing fashion also.  Here on the Diner, you speak the Truth, I speak the Truth and so do many other Diners as well.

What do we all have in common?  NO POWER!  Even Gail who ranks up there at around 250K on Alexa doesn't have THAT many readers.

Wresting the Power from the Elite in society is the Bear we have to deal with and clearly "Democracy" doesn't serve to do that.  Peaceful means of change is made Illegal.  What is LEFT?  Rhetorical Question.

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Offline g

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2012, 04:12:45 PM »
Quote RE  "The other thing that perpetually surprises me is that even when 10s of thousands or even MILLIONS of their Countrymen are out in the Street in Protest that the Gestapo will continue to Follow Orders and beat the shit out of women, old men and dogs too.  Amazing what people will do for a Paycheck, eh?"

It really is shocking and very sickening. They will kill everyone if told to, no question asked.

We all know the excuses. "I Got a wife and family", "They were going to take my pension away."
"If I didn't do it someone else would have, so what's the difference". "I got a kid with medical problems"   :'(

Offline Karpatok

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2012, 04:26:24 PM »
 Is it possible that that could have happened in Germany GO? As well as the Soviet Union, Myanmar, Serbia,Hungary and countless other places?

Offline monsta666

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2012, 04:28:04 PM »
Tyler Durden in his typical Piglet fashion blames their financial problems on Goobermint Corruption and Socialism, even though in theory at least he is aware of Peak Oil and the Energy requirements of running an Industrialized nation.  Although just about every Goobermint is Corrupt, that is not the real source of the problem.  The source of the problem is that once the Oil gets too expensive, one by one entire Nation States lose access to Credit to buy said Oil.  Becoming an Independent Nation State won't solve that problem for the Catalans, in fact it will make it worse.
This is the thing that I don't get and I have difficulty trying to comprehend why it is. You get seemingly intelligent folk who do get it, at least when it comes to individual facts such as peak oil, bank insolvencies and the general follies of perpetual growth etc. Yet these people have great difficulties connecting the dots together. I do not know why Tyler cannot see that expensive oil has contributed to this crisis and that this Spanish succession will have any meaningful impact on their economic woes.

I also see similar discussions in the places in The Oil Drum where people can make extensive quantitative studies on peak oil or other energy related matters yet when it comes to discussions the subject often goes toward renewables, EV's or nuclear power as possible solutions or at least things that will meaningfully mitigate the decline. What is forgotten in all this is all these investments require a huge amount of capital, resources AND most important of all credit. All of these things will be in short supply once we begin the descent from peak oil. The net export maths problem will only exacerbate these effects. It is a seemingly obvious thing, and something I would expect intelligent folk to join the dots and to join them with ease yet so many of them fail to see the bigger picture. It is quite perplexing.

Also the other major elephant in the room that is barely discussed, or at least explored in any meaningful depth is what happens when the majority of countries, governments and corporations go bust? What will happen to law and order, basic public services? Surely all those educated people would at least see such things as a distinct possibility. Such facts say much about the psychology of people.

Offline RE

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2012, 04:35:48 PM »
How true. My guess is, like elsewhere in the "developed" world, there aren't 1 in 100,000 Catalans thinking about the end of oil. Any bets on when Balkanization comes to head-up-MSM-ass Amerika?

Anyone who can answer that question with accuracy gets the Nostradamus/Cassandra Award of the Millenium, or is extremely Lucky. LOL.

I'll take yet another Stab at this despite the fact I have been WRONG so many times already predicting the Exact Time for the Big Meltdown to get rolling in earnest.

My suspicion is that the Dollar gets an big but fairly short lived Bounce once the Euro collapses.  TPTB in Europe can keep funding the Banks to stave off a Financial Melt Down from that area for a while, but they can't/won't fund the Public Liabilities of the Big Goobermints.  As those fall apart, more and more civil disruption and the Euro will fail because of that, not because of the Economics of the debt.

So, how long before what is going on in Spain migrates to Italy and then France?  Seems to take a year to two to migrate as it did from Greece to Spain.  My guess is it takes another 2 years to have so much havoc going on in Europe that the Euro itself will collapse.   The Krauts might Dollarize at that point, or they might try an SDR gimmick.  Then maybe 2 years after that for the whole Tower of Babel to collapse.  So, 5-6 years based on just these Economic/Geopolitical factors.

However, given we have all the bullshit going on between Israel and Iran, Japan and China etc and the fact on any given day in the next 6 years Los Angeles could slide into the Pacific Ocean or La Garita Caldera could blow ANOTHER 5000 Cubic Kilometers of Ejecta off Fish Canyon Tuff up into the atmosphere OR some MIT Genius' HFT trading program could blow a gasket OR we could get the Second Coming of Christ and the Gog and the Magog could descend from Heaven to go Mano-a-Mano here on Earth OR Reptilian Aliens could arrive with Space Freighters to Harvest  Human DNA, said Prediction may not hold to be Accurate.   :icon_mrgreen:

So don't bet your Garden on it.  LOL.

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Offline g

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 04:47:26 PM »
Is it possible that that could have happened in Germany GO? As well as the Soviet Union, Myanmar, Serbia,Hungary and countless other places?
Many many others, remember Poll Pot and Idi Amin, Rwanda. That scuzz ball Papa Doc Duvalier, and his lovely son Baby Doc. The list goes on and on and that's just the current one. How about the American Indians, scalping was a great way to earn a little extra income.

The French Revolution seemed a bit different than all the other blood baths for some reason. I wonder why? Is it just me?   :icon_scratch:

Offline g

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Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 04:53:00 PM »
However, given we have all the bullshit going on between Israel and Iran, Japan and China etc and the fact on any given day in the next 6 years Los Angeles could slide into the Pacific Ocean or La Garita Caldera could blow ANOTHER 5000 Cubic Kilometers of Ejecta off Fish Canyon Tuff up into the atmosphere OR some MIT Genius' HFT trading program could blow a gasket OR we could get the Second Coming of Christ and the Gog and the Magog could descend from Heaven to go Mano-a-Mano here on Earth OR Reptilian Aliens could arrive with Space Freighters to Harvest  Human DNA, said Prediction may not hold to be Accurate.   :icon_mrgreen:

Did you forget 2012 and the Mayans?  December is right around the corner. 

 

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