AuthorTopic: Living Off the Land is Illegal  (Read 629 times)

Offline RE

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Living Off the Land is Illegal
« on: March 20, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »
Here on the Diner this is Old Newz, but here's a nice vid to show your friends.

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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/uC4pzjDgttI" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/uC4pzjDgttI</a>
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Offline David B.

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 07:00:45 PM »
The Florida lady is a familiar one.  Honestly she did not have a leg to stand on.  She moved into a neighbourhood with very clear bylaws. She wanted to disconnect water but the town bills sewage based on water consumption...  They put it in based on projected use she should have known the bylaws going in to it.. The Texas one I'd have to look into the details.   Oregon is just crazy about rainwater.  The one alarm that went off in my head is "his ponds" that tells me he is not keeping a few barrels or a cistern but a significant amount of water.  Basic rule is stay the hell out of highly organized municipalities if you want to do this stuff!!!
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 07:18:46 PM »
Basic rule is stay the hell out of highly organized municipalities if you want to do this stuff!!!

Well sure.  The basic problem though is there aren't a whole lot of unorganized municipalities to set up without all these building codes and regulations, and if you do go to one of the ones that do exist there is no way to earn any money! They are in the middle of NOWHERE! Unless you have some source of external income you cannot earn enough money from the doomstead to even feed yourself 100% usually, much less buy all your fuel, seeds, fertilizer etc AND pay the taxes on the land.

Are you 100% self sufficient off the land, with no other income?  How do you pay your taxes and buy fuel?

RE
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 07:21:08 PM by RE »
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Offline David B.

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 07:50:00 PM »
We built new so we chose to build offgrid at first.  Its a rural township without any municipal utilities and very few services; that keeps the taxes down and nobody asked or cared about how we get our electricity. There is a pretty large set of bylaws but they are mostly about setbacks, square footage, septic sizing, number of dogs, etc. I'm a carpenter by trade in an area of cottagers that always need work done.  So there is another one; have a set of skills that match your chosen area. Honestly if you live in an established area with its own utilities you are screwed if you want to go off grid.  The best you could do is grey water recycling, covert rainwater harvesting and self consumption net metering for power. Plant a garden and join a food coop... You would be 80 percent of the way there anyways.
Sorry it's so chaotic I'm on my phone.
David
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 08:03:56 PM »
We built new so we chose to build offgrid at first.  Its a rural township without any municipal utilities and very few services; that keeps the taxes down and nobody asked or cared about how we get our electricity. There is a pretty large set of bylaws but they are mostly about setbacks, square footage, septic sizing, number of dogs, etc. I'm a carpenter by trade in an area of cottagers that always need work done.  So there is another one; have a set of skills that match your chosen area. Honestly if you live in an established area with its own utilities you are screwed if you want to go off grid.  The best you could do is grey water recycling, covert rainwater harvesting and self consumption net metering for power. Plant a garden and join a food coop... You would be 80 percent of the way there anyways.
Sorry it's so chaotic I'm on my phone.
David

Around here the building codes and regulations are fairly lax, but carpenters are a dime a dozen and unemployed usually for half the year.  They only get work in the summer building season.  I got one upstairs from me currently collecting his UE bennies.  Native guy, we chat all the time when we are both out smoking cancerettes.  He was up in Barrow last summer building modular homes for the locals there.

Anyhow, it still demonstrates how you cannot "live off the land".  You MUST have income of some sort from the industrial culture in order to pursue any of these "off-grid" ways of living.  But then you're not really "off-grid", are you?  Still dependent on the industrial society to make the money so you can live this way.

RE
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 08:06:57 PM by RE »
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Offline David B.

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 04:11:11 AM »
Licensed journeyman carpenters usually have better employment prospects then most hammer swingers but yes winter gets lean. I'm not quite ready for the bear skins and stone tools yet :) we've talked about this one before. I'm under no illusion of my dependencies. "Off the grid" is such an emotionally ladden term. I would not want to trample the dream for someone.  What's your take.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 04:42:54 AM »
Licensed journeyman carpenters usually have better employment prospects then most hammer swingers but yes winter gets lean. I'm not quite ready for the bear skins and stone tools yet :) we've talked about this one before. I'm under no illusion of my dependencies. "Off the grid" is such an emotionally ladden term. I would not want to trample the dream for someone.  What's your take.

Generally, I try to make people realistic about the whole Doomsteading idea as an individual, and why it really doesn't work.  In terms of money spent and life expectancy, rather than trying to grow your own this way you probably would do better just buying 20 years worth of freeze dried food and storing it in your basement.

The only thing that stands a chance of working is a community size project where you have all the main crafts being done, blacksmithing, tanning leather, spinning & weaving cloth, pottery, basket weaving, shoemaking etc etc etc.  That's the nature of the SUN☼Project.

The only way you can do this is with a community of minimum I would say 100 people, and then each of them has to bone up on a couple of different areas of craftsmanship starting yesterday. Most of these crafts take years to get really good at.

You're only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.  Once you realize that the collapse of industrial civilization means that all those products you buy at Home Depot, Walmart etc won't be available, you have to be able to produce a facsimile of them yourself.  It's not just about growing food, and most people including farmers couldn't do that if they couldn't buy commercial seed every year.

Individual Doomsteading is basically a fantasy insofar as being sustainable for any great length of time.  At best, it will keep you alive a few more years than the population at large.  That's better than than nothing, but I think we can do better than that.  Only by working together though.

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Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 12:39:04 PM »
The only thing that stands a chance of working is a community size project where you have all the main crafts being done, blacksmithing, tanning leather, spinning & weaving cloth, pottery, basket weaving, shoemaking etc etc etc.  That's the nature of the SUN☼Project.

The only way you can do this is with a community of minimum I would say 100 people, and then each of them has to bone up on a couple of different areas of craftsmanship starting yesterday. Most of these crafts take years to get really good at.

You're only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.  Once you realize that the collapse of industrial civilization means that all those products you buy at Home Depot, Walmart etc won't be available, you have to be able to produce a facsimile of them yourself.  It's not just about growing food, and most people including farmers couldn't do that if they couldn't buy commercial seed every year.

Individual Doomsteading is basically a fantasy insofar as being sustainable for any great length of time.  At best, it will keep you alive a few more years than the population at large.  That's better than than nothing, but I think we can do better than that.  Only by working together though.

RE
Had to sign in just to give this one a hearty Amen!

The rugged individualists may last a while through a steep decline, but they certainly will not thrive over the long haul.

Cheers!
Greg
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 12:48:43 PM »
The only thing that stands a chance of working is a community size project where you have all the main crafts being done, blacksmithing, tanning leather, spinning & weaving cloth, pottery, basket weaving, shoemaking etc etc etc.  That's the nature of the SUN☼Project.

The only way you can do this is with a community of minimum I would say 100 people, and then each of them has to bone up on a couple of different areas of craftsmanship starting yesterday. Most of these crafts take years to get really good at.

You're only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.  Once you realize that the collapse of industrial civilization means that all those products you buy at Home Depot, Walmart etc won't be available, you have to be able to produce a facsimile of them yourself.  It's not just about growing food, and most people including farmers couldn't do that if they couldn't buy commercial seed every year.

Individual Doomsteading is basically a fantasy insofar as being sustainable for any great length of time.  At best, it will keep you alive a few more years than the population at large.  That's better than than nothing, but I think we can do better than that.  Only by working together though.

RE
Had to sign in just to give this one a hearty Amen!

The rugged individualists may last a while through a steep decline, but they certainly will not thrive over the long haul.

Cheers!
Greg

Nice 2 C U FM.  :icon_sunny:

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Offline Palloy2

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 12:14:40 AM »
Oh, woe is life - The System says you can't even go off-grid, it's illegal !

The thing is, living off the land is only illegal in SOME jurisdictions.  The authorities don't make up these rules because they want to keep you enslaved, although that may be the outcome.  They do it because the cheapest way to provide amenities is to do it for everyone in a service area and share out the costs as much as possible.  If you could then say "I don't want it and won't pay my share for it", that would make it more expensive for everyone else, your neighbours - a charming philosophy.

Of course the problem of finding an unserviced area when you live in the USA is hard, but it isn't hard in Third World countries, where people want be ON services but can't afford it.  Just move to a Third World country, like I have - problem solved !  The first place I lived here didn't have ANY services.  I never managed to convince anybody that THAT was a good idea, I don't know why, unless they were thinking of their comfort in old age.  Are you expecting to have comfort in your old age? - ha ha ha ha, no chance.  You're either going to be fit and strong and working hard dawn till dusk, or you are going to be dead.

The place where I am now has electricity, water and telephone - a really posh area, rent ~US$130 /week for a modern house (100 m2) on 8 acres of rainforest.   The rent pays for reticulated water, but I don't use it, I collect rainwater off a tiny part of the roof (it rains a LOT here).  When you collect your own rainwater, they still want you to pay your share of the cost of providing reticulated water. 


5,000 Litre tank, 200 L barrel, 1,000 L open trough

The telephone doesn't actually work in the wet season, because the local watertable is so high it shorts out the copper wire junctions, so I've had it disconnected, and use an internet satellite dish instead (12 Mbps), which doesn't work when it's raining hard:



No reticulated sewerage, septic tank instead.  (Note the tree branch which snapped off yesterday, that would have killed anyone standing under it):



No broadcast TV, radio or cell phone reception, only satellite dish again - a different one:



When you add in maintenance of the roads, rubbish collection, police services (which implies courts and prisons), ambulance services, nearby hospital services - all that stuff is nice if you can get it, especially when you are getting older, but it all costs money so you have to pay your rent, that's only fair.

When it comes to selling your excess garden produce to the public, First Worlders have got "the right" to expect that the food isn't going to poison them.  So then there's got to be some kind of regulation: licensing and inspections and fees and taxes.  In the Third World you have no such right, so things are much simpler.

After The Collapse, the USA will have much further to fall than here.  But I still can't persuade any Amerikans to leave and get themselves organised in advance.  Instead they fantasise about communities which are only going to cost a million dollars to set up, which of course is why they can't start now.  They need (apparently) to buy the land first, even though all that property ownership system is certain to collapse.  They need concrete and steel and timber and power tools - imagine nailing without a nail gun, so much hard work!

Over the weekend I saw an archeology doco on TV about life in the Scottish islands 4,000 years ago, where they had answers for all these things - stone houses, stone fences, stone tools.  How do you shape a stone into an axe? - chip it lightly with another stone a thousand times, then grind it with sand, water and your hand.  How do you make a hole in it for a handle? - get a dowel and some grit, and rotate back and forth a million times between the palms.  What do you mean, you haven't got time for all that? - too busy watching TV and reading stuff on the internet?

Round here there are thousands of discarded stone tools.  They mostly seem to be good for processing Pandanus fruits - scraping off the edible flesh from the bristles, and prising open the woody part to get at the nuts inside, which are tiny but nutritious.









The Stone Age is coming again soon, but no one wants to know, not even Diners:
"It's easy for you, you're single - my wife wouldn't let me."
"Amerika is the greatest country on Earth, and I'll shoot anyone who says otherwise !"
"I want to, but I can't afford it yet.  Gotta work a bit longer first." 
"I'll be dead soon anyway, so it doesn't matter, even if they torture me for being a dissident."
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:23:01 AM by Palloy2 »
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Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2017, 12:20:39 AM »
Load this to the Blog.

I'll reserve commentary until it's published on the Blog.

RE
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Offline Palloy2

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2017, 01:34:21 AM »
Done
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline RE

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 01:52:25 AM »
Done

In the queue as a Feature Article on Thursday.

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Offline AJ

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2017, 04:25:02 AM »
Hi everyone,
I'm the first to admit that we are all (civilization wise) on a slide to the second neolithic age; if we are lucky and avoid extinction. I also agree that to really survive with some form of sustainable (is that possible?) culture ala Kunstler or JMG will require 100 people with skills that hardly anyone has any longer. That said, I am attempting to live more sustainably (with Home Depot, gas for the tractor, etc.) with less and less inputs from the culture at large. I would doubt that those who are totally off the grid did that in one fell swoop (would we even hear from them on this forum if they didn't have internet access??). But,,,, I think we shouldn't disparage those who are making an attempt to remove themselves before collapse for not being purists and living a neolithic life right now.  Move to a rural area, build up your skills, grow you own food, have your own water supply (power, sewage, etc.), do what you can to be self-sufficient and build community. All that is better than being sheeple and sitting in a city watching baseball while eating your 5th fastfood dinner of the week AND THINKING THAT WILL GO ON FOREVER (sad).
AJ

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Living Off the Land is Illegal
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2017, 05:32:18 AM »
Hi everyone,
I'm the first to admit that we are all (civilization wise) on a slide to the second neolithic age; if we are lucky and avoid extinction. I also agree that to really survive with some form of sustainable (is that possible?) culture ala Kunstler or JMG will require 100 people with skills that hardly anyone has any longer. That said, I am attempting to live more sustainably (with Home Depot, gas for the tractor, etc.) with less and less inputs from the culture at large. I would doubt that those who are totally off the grid did that in one fell swoop (would we even hear from them on this forum if they didn't have internet access??). But,,,, I think we shouldn't disparage those who are making an attempt to remove themselves before collapse for not being purists and living a neolithic life right now.  Move to a rural area, build up your skills, grow you own food, have your own water supply (power, sewage, etc.), do what you can to be self-sufficient and build community. All that is better than being sheeple and sitting in a city watching baseball while eating your 5th fastfood dinner of the week AND THINKING THAT WILL GO ON FOREVER (sad).
AJ

I'll second that notion! 

Welcome to the Diner AJ :hi:

The fact is that you cannot extract yourself from BAU unless you have the money to do it, and even then you still rely on things that come from the BAU economy that you cannot produce yourself.  Unless you retreat to the woods somewhere and eat bugs, to some degree you will be a part of the collective madness.  So be it. 

Yet we can do as you said, and develop skills that will matter in a lower energy per capita world where BAU is failing.  Anything that will provide you with an extra layer of protection from our failing systems is a positive thing.  Have a good store of dry foods and other preps, garden, interact with nature, plant food producing trees and other perennials, learn primitive skills, as well as low tech (like ham radio), produce your own electricity off grid with renewables, plant bamboo and learn to use it, get some chickens or some other farm animals, use your gray water, start a humanure pile (if you can get away with it,) learn to build naturally.  The more we turn our backs on BAU and start walking the other way the better off we are.  We can't escape it, but we can set our intentions away from it, and move to the margins, or as close to them as we can get.  When the systems fail you will be better for your efforts then those who are sitting around stuffing their fast food fry pit holes with fast food, staring at an idiot panel watching distraction, while sucking down cheap corn beer and popping even cheaper psychoactive pharmaceuticals. 

If you are aware of our reality, and that lower per capita energy is a given (at the very least), then you are already ahead of the slowest campers who will be eaten by the bear of collapse.  At least you give yourself a head start and therefore a semblance of a chance...and therefore hope!  It is not delusional to have hope in this world.  Not hopium, because hopium is rooted is delusion, but realistic hope is not delusional.  It may be unlikely, but not impossible, for some of us to thrive in the future we are going to get.  I plan to thrive! 


 

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