AuthorTopic: 🎓 Subprime Student Loans  (Read 13547 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2019, 02:01:53 PM »
Banks take haircuts? Historically, yes. Lately, not so much. The 1.5 Trillion student debt, if it's forgiven, will NOT be paid by the banks. If you think that, you are pretty clueless.

Nobody here is clueless, and insinuating that somebody is is not a valid argument.

It was already stipulated that the debt will be moved onto the balance sheet of Da Goobermint, or at least they will try to do that.  If you buy MMT, then the debt doesn't matter and can be ballooned up indefinitely.  I don't buy that, but there are economists who pitch that POV.

Finally, no, the statement "all debt gets paid by somebody" is false.  Irredeemable debt never gets paid, that's why it's called irredeemable.  That's why they had Jubilees in Biblical times.  You have to reset back to Zero and start over.  That's the Zero Point I talk about.  That's the crash of this monetary system, and it will come, likely within your lifetime.  Expect it.




RE
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:48:46 PM by RE »
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Online Eddie

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2019, 04:02:24 PM »
No, you need to go get an MBA and come back, teach.

Irredeemable debt, in finance, means something different than what you think it means:

Irredeemable Debt

Irredeemable debt is debt that has no specific redemption date or maturity period. The issuing authority or entity pays a specified interest rate periodically but provides no data on when principal will be returned. In many cases the principal is never paid. The United States Treasury does not issue irredeemable debt. But other national governments and state and local governments do, typically as bonds or debentures, as do companies. Another name for irredeemable debt is perpetual debt or consol.



In finance, "irredeemable debt" has a very clear definition, and it has nothing to do with jubilees, which don't happen much lately. It can be argued that Europe's debt got written off after the Great Depression. I say they paid in blood.



When debts get cancelled for debtors, the lender pays, or if there is a guarantor (like the government), then the taxpayers pay.

To say they don't get paid assumes nobody loses. Somebody ALWAYS absorbs the loss, either though loss of equity or loss of income.

There are those times at the very end of a civilization when the whole system fails and nobody remembers who got screwed, but somebody is always the loser, because it's a zero sum game.

Jubillees happen when the VERY RICH erase the debts of the VERY POOR by writing off some income they were owed...but it's not done out of charity. It's done because things are at a point where the parasites (bankers, like FAT TICKS)  have to let the host recover, so that there is more blood to suck later.

Nobody here is clueless, and insinuating that somebody is is not a valid argument.

I postulate that if you ask 100 Americans how student loan debt forgiveness impacts the lenders, not 3 people will have a clue. That includes some people here .

 I think most Diners who think student loan forgiveness is a great idea are failing to think it through. I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.



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Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2019, 11:55:22 PM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE
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https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-free-college-student-debt-cancellation-plan-reaction-2019-4

Elizabeth Warren is trying to tackle the skyrocketing cost of education with a plan to forgive student-loan debt and offer free college — but experts are divided on her ambitious idea
Eliza Relman


Sen. Elizabeth Warren Sen. Elizabeth Warren joins students gathered at Madison Park High School before the March for Our Lives in Boston on March 24, 2018. Boston Globe/Getty Images

    On Monday, Sen. Elizabeth Warren unveiled a highly ambitious plan to relieve a massive amount of student loan debt and make public college free for all.
    The plan is one of the boldest and most progressive in the 2020 debate and progressive education experts and activists praised its scope.
    But conservatives — and some 2020 Democrats — aren't fans of the proposal. They cite the $1.25 trillion price tag, and argue that the proposal doesn't do enough to address skyrocketing college tuition.
    Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

On Monday, Sen. Elizabeth Warren unveiled an ambitious plan to relieve most Americans' student loan debt and make public college free for all.

Warren's policy would cancel $50,000 in student loan debt for every American whose family makes up to $100,000, and make all public higher education, including community colleges, free for all.

The plan is vast in scope: it would eliminate all student debt for 75% of Americans who have it, and get rid of at least some debt for 95% of the almost 45 million affected Americans, according to an analysis by four social policy professors released by the campaign.

Read more: Elizabeth Warren just unveiled a plan to make public colleges free for all Americans

Progressive activists have cheered on the 2020 candidate's plan, which would also expand grants for low-income students and significantly boost funding for historically black colleges and universities.

But the proposal has also been critiqued by conservatives, moderate Democrats, and some education experts, who say it's too expensive and an insufficient fix for the rapidly-rising cost of college.
college campus students walkNational student debt has more than doubled in the last decade, and reached $1.5 trillion this year.Drew Angerer/Getty Images
The necessity of a college degree

Warren's free college plan is premised on the idea that education — kindergarten through college — should be a public good.

But many conservatives don't believe the federal government should be responsible for higher education. And some conservative education experts argue that the government shouldn't incentivize Americans to get a college degree over another other form of higher education or training.

Lindsey Burke, the director of the Center for Education Policy at the conservative Heritage Foundation, told INSIDER that Warren's plan further cements "the notion that the only way to be successful in life is to go to a four-year brick and mortar college."

Burke argues the system instead needs accreditation reform, more innovative tuition financing models, and proposals that would put colleges on the hook for their students' future success.

But Americans overwhelmingly view college as a key to opportunity and financial security.

A 2012 Pew survey found a whopping 94% of parents of kids under 17 years old expected their children to attend college.

And there is a massive earnings gap between Americans with bachelors degrees and those with high school degrees. In 2015, college graduates earned 56% more then their high school graduate counterparts. Those with four-year degrees make 26% more, on average, than those with associate's degrees — and that gap grows to more than 50% after a decade of work experience.

And the demand for workers with college degrees is growing. By 2020, 65% of US jobs will require at least some higher education, according to a 2013 Georgetown University study, but just about a third of Americans have college degrees, and about 40% have education beyond high school.

Read more: College is more expensive than it's ever been, and the 5 reasons why suggest it's only going to get worse

Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.Sen. Bernie Sanders introduced the "College for All Act" in 2017. Jose Luis Magana/AP Images

And, of course, there's the issue of cost. Warren's plan comes with a $1.25 trillion price tag, which the senator says she'd pay for with her wealth tax on the country's 75,000 richest families.

After Warren rolled out the plan, some Democrats agreed with Republicans that student-loan debt forgiveness and free public college is simply too expensive.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a moderate Minnesota Democrat and 2020 candidate, argued during a town hall on Monday that the US can't afford the plan and has proposed a more modest alternative that would include making community college free.

"I wish I could staple a free college diploma under every one of your chairs. I do. Don't look, it's not there. I wish I could do that but I have to be straight with you," Klobuchar said on Monday.

Burke, and other conservatives, further argued that Warren's proposal would be unfair to Americans who've already paid off their loans.

The "losers" under Warren's policy, Burke argued, are "those students who chose to work while they were in college to minimize their debt after they graduated, those students who chose to maybe pursue an apprenticeship instead of an expensive four-year degree, those students who took out a loan but after they graduated lived very modestly in order to pay back what they owed."

Many on the left criticized that logic, arguing that ameliorating suffering for one group isn't a bad thing. And others argued that past generations of students had it easier than today's students because of the sharp drop in state investment in public colleges over the last decade.
A fix for skyrocketing tuition?

Education experts across the political spectrum agree that the rising cost of a college degree is unsustainable. Tuition at four-year public colleges has risen more than 100% since 2001, even after adjusting for inflation. And grants and financial aid have not kept up.

Elizabeth Popp Berman, a sociology professor at the University at Albany, SUNY says she'd like to see more details in Warren's plan on how the government would force schools to control costs.

"You have to find some way to cap the college tuition aspect of it, or else you don't really solve the underlying problem," Berman told INSIDER.

Berman does believe that if public colleges are tuition- and fee-free, private colleges will be forced to lower their costs at least somewhat in order to compete.

And Mark Huelsman, the associate director of policy and research at the liberal think tank Demos, argued that Warren's plan will limit costs at public schools by controlling the amount each school is allocated, while forcing all to be tuition-free.

"The potential of this plan is that it increases public investment back to levels we saw when college was much more affordable, and it pegs it to a price for students," he told INSIDER. "So rather than just pumping money into the system, it pumps money into the system and says that in return for that money ... public colleges have to be tuition-free."

In contrast Burke blames the federal student loan system for skyrocketing tuition. About 30% of undergraduate students took out federal student loans in the 2016-2017 school year.

"[Colleges] are able to increase their tuition and fees at breathtaking levels because they know students can just run back to the federal government and have easy access to a loan," Burke said.

Other education reformers argue the cost of public college has risen so dramatically in large part because of cuts in state funding. Particularly since the Great Recession, state legislatures have pushed tuition increases while reducing funding for their state's educational institutions.
2020 Democratic presidential candidate South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg speaks during a town hall meeting, Tuesday, April 16, 2019, in Fort Dodge, Iowa. (AP Photo/Charlie Neibergall)Democratic 2020 candidate Pete Buttigieg is skeptical of Warren's plan. Associated Press
Subsidizing rich kids?

Critics of Warren's plans argue that free college and debt forgiveness would force taxpayers, most of whom don't have college degrees, to fund the education of students from wealthy families.

"Americans who have a college degree earn more than Americans who don't," Democratic 2020 candidate Pete Buttigieg said. "As a progressive, I have a hard time getting my head around the idea of a majority who earn less because they didn't go to college subsidizing a minority who earn more because they did."

On Monday, Buttigieg argued that progressive tax reform should be accomplished before a free college plan like Warren's is implemented.

But Huelsman says progressives should be pushing for the principle of education as a public good. (Warren's plan would cut off student loan forgiveness for those with a household income of more than $250,000).

"No one's proposing that rich kids pay for K-12," Huelsman said. "This centers the idea that everyone, regardless of income, should have a right to free higher education."

Berman argues the universality of the proposal makes it more politically palatable: it would benefit everyone, while targeting low-income students.

"It does mean that you're giving a benefit that's going to go to the middle class to a significant extent, but I also think that politically that's the only way you get people on board with providing assistance to the people who need it the most," Berman said.
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Online Eddie

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2019, 06:31:31 AM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.
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Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2019, 06:58:36 AM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE
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Online Eddie

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2019, 08:19:30 AM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2019, 09:41:31 AM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system. There is no good reason why student loans should be effectively excluded from this system, other than the moral hazard associated with the occasional person who borrows just to blow the money on themselves and forego the education. Even this scenario can be dealt with through the non-dischargeable fraud provisions of the bankruptcy code.

The following is a brief summary of a selected recommendation by this year's ABI commission on consumer bankruptcy:


Recommendation

Student loan debt significantly depresses U.S. economic activity, and
current bankruptcy law ineffectively addresses it. The Commission
recognizes that recent graduates should generally be required to repay
government-made or guaranteed student loans, but it recommends
statutory amendments to discharge student loans that are
• made by nongovernmental entities;
• incurred by a person other than the person receiving the education;
• being paid through a five-year chapter 13 plan; or
• first payable more than seven years before a chapter 7 bankruptcy is
filed.

In addition, the Commission recommends administrative procedures and
interpretations of current law to facilitate reasonable relief from student
loan indebtedness.

Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2019, 10:48:59 AM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2019, 12:30:43 PM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.

I didn't say ALL opinion.  I said "most of the time".

Calling me a "dick" is a violation of the CoC.  I'll let it go this time.  :icon_sunny:  See?  I'm not a TOTAL dick.  lol.

RE
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2019, 03:33:44 PM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them, especially when it comes to Eddie and even more when it comes to me.

But here a couple reasons why it's not certain off the top of my head:

1) There are already complex mechanisms for challenging the dischargeability of student loans in bankruptcy court. Lawyers can generate a good amount of fees pursuing these mechanisms for clients, even if they are unlikely to be successful. The ABI proposal would eliminate the need for pursuing these complicated legal arguments.

2) People who are far behind on student loan debt for a long period of time tend to be the people who would need bankruptcy anyway for other debts. So it's not clear the client base would increase greatly.

3) When the mechanisms for discharging student debt are radically simplified, lawyers will have no basis for raising their fees for people who need help with those debts. Anyone who does will be quickly out competed by others in their jurisdiction.

Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2019, 04:04:44 PM »

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE
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Online Eddie

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2019, 05:09:00 PM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them, especially when it comes to Eddie and even more when it comes to me.

But here a couple reasons why it's not certain off the top of my head:

1) There are already complex mechanisms for challenging the dischargeability of student loans in bankruptcy court. Lawyers can generate a good amount of fees pursuing these mechanisms for clients, even if they are unlikely to be successful. The ABI proposal would eliminate the need for pursuing these complicated legal arguments.

2) People who are far behind on student loan debt for a long period of time tend to be the people who would need bankruptcy anyway for other debts. So it's not clear the client base would increase greatly.

3) When the mechanisms for discharging student debt are radically simplified, lawyers will have no basis for raising their fees for people who need help with those debts. Anyone who does will be quickly out competed by others in their jurisdiction.

Ashvin, for once at least, I agree with you completely and without reservation. Making student loans fall outside bankruptcy protection was a huge mistake and no doubt it was something bought and paid for with serious graft.
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Online Eddie

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2019, 05:11:45 PM »
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.

I didn't say ALL opinion.  I said "most of the time".

Calling me a "dick" is a violation of the CoC.  I'll let it go this time.  :icon_sunny:  See?  I'm not a TOTAL dick.  lol.

RE

You're not really a dick. I was giving you a hard time.
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Offline RE

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Re: Subprime Student Loans
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2019, 06:42:47 PM »
You're not really a dick. I was giving you a hard time.

I know.  You still can't do it though.  Sets a bad example.

RE
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