AuthorTopic: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism  (Read 4707 times)

Offline agelbert

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 04:37:05 PM »
Ka,
We can all agree that individual freedom is something we all wish to have, if we don't happen to have it, or if we do not have it to a sufficient degree to avoid being coerced by the herd.

Consequently, I would claim that I FEAR the temptation accumulate a lot of material goods because of the thoroughly proven wisdom of this statement you made over a year ago.

 

I AM AFRAID of being materially wealthy BECAUSE I am convinced that it would severely limit my individual freedom. AND, that FEAR is based on the fact that my biochemical processes are not prudent in knowing when enough is enough. You could say, I am AFARID of "myself" so to speak. But it's a bit more complicated than that.

Nevertheless, if I am told that I worship the creator because I am scared shitless of what He might do to me, then I have to admit that the person telling me that is correct. Again, it's a bit more complicated than that, but as far as believing there is no purpose to life and everything is a sort of waste of time, I genuinely am terrified of that concept and will admit it.


« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 04:38:47 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
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if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 05:38:00 PM »

Except he's not attacking the person or character of the person making the argument, because there is no person making the argument!  He's not debating with you Ka.  He's just stating his perception.  He hasn't targeted you for attack.  Ad hom is when two (or more) people are debating and then one person call the other person stupid, or some other derogatory adjective rather than address the topic.  The topic here is what moticates eternalists and nihilists, and he posits that the motivator is fear.  That's not ad hom, sorry.

RE

So you are saying that if someone says

"RE, you are a doomer because you are a social misfit."

that that is an ad hominem, while saying

"All doomers are motivated by being social misfits."

is not? Seems to me they are equally fallacious with respect to the question of the likelihood of doom.

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 05:46:05 PM »

Except he's not attacking the person or character of the person making the argument, because there is no person making the argument!  He's not debating with you Ka.  He's just stating his perception.  He hasn't targeted you for attack.  Ad hom is when two (or more) people are debating and then one person call the other person stupid, or some other derogatory adjective rather than address the topic.  The topic here is what moticates eternalists and nihilists, and he posits that the motivator is fear.  That's not ad hom, sorry.

RE

So you are saying that if someone says

"RE, you are a doomer because you are a social misfit."

that that is an ad hominem, while saying

"All doomers are motivated by being social misfits."

is not? Seems to me they are equally fallacious with respect to the question of the likelihood of doom.

Yes, that is basically it.

In the first statement, it is directed specifically AT THE MAN (me), aka AD HOM.

The second statement is looking at all Doomers as a class, and making a blanket generalization, which also is a logical fallacy and I would argue with whoever made the statement on that basis.  Then I would go ahead and demonstrate why it was incorrect as a blanket generalization.  Then after that I would go and call whoever made such a ridiculous statement a fucking idiot.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 05:56:30 PM »
Ka,
why do you think being motivated by fear is a negative concept? I agree that being motivated by GROUNDLESS fear is certainly to be disdained, but LOGIC based fear (e.g. some thing, being or event is to be feared because it has been conclusively proven to be deleterious to your continued biochemical activity.), IMHO, is, well, prudent, as well as logical.

Yes, but the question is, is eternalism true or not. To say that eternalists are eternalists only out of fear does not say anything about whether or not eternalism is true. Chapman wouldn't have put that statement in there except to cast doubt on eternalism. just as atheists bring up wish-fulfillment and such to question theism. Even if it were true that all eternalists are fearful of nihilism, that would not in itself make eternalism false. Hence his statement is a logical fallacy. And that kind of fallacy is called an ad hominem, because it refers to the character of the eternalist, and not eternalism itself.

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 06:08:00 PM »
Ka,
why do you think being motivated by fear is a negative concept? I agree that being motivated by GROUNDLESS fear is certainly to be disdained, but LOGIC based fear (e.g. some thing, being or event is to be feared because it has been conclusively proven to be deleterious to your continued biochemical activity.), IMHO, is, well, prudent, as well as logical.

Yes, but the question is, is eternalism true or not. To say that eternalists are eternalists only out of fear does not say anything about whether or not eternalism is true. Chapman wouldn't have put that statement in there except to cast doubt on eternalism. just as atheists bring up wish-fulfillment and such to question theism. Even if it were true that all eternalists are fearful of nihilism, that would not in itself make eternalism false. Hence his statement is a logical fallacy. And that kind of fallacy is called an ad hominem, because it refers to the character of the eternalist, and not eternalism itself.

No, that doesn't make it Ad Hom.  It makes it a Straw Man argument.

Quote
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

It's a form of misdirection, which takes the debate off the actual topic by presenting an entirely new and most likely irrelevant postulate, but it APPEARS to address the issue.

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 06:24:48 PM »

So you are saying that if someone says

"RE, you are a doomer because you are a social misfit."

that that is an ad hominem, while saying

"All doomers are motivated by being social misfits."

is not? Seems to me they are equally fallacious with respect to the question of the likelihood of doom.

Yes, that is basically it.

In the first statement, it is directed specifically AT THE MAN (me), aka AD HOM.

The second statement is looking at all Doomers as a class, and making a blanket generalization, which also is a logical fallacy and I would argue with whoever made the statement on that basis.  Then I would go ahead and demonstrate why it was incorrect as a blanket generalization.  Then after that I would go and call whoever made such a ridiculous statement a fucking idiot.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

Ok, then if someone says "all doomers who live in Palmer, AK and write blog posts on Endless Salad are doomers because they are social misfits" is not an ad hominem, since it is directed at a class, not you specifically. True, there is (I assume) only one individual in that class, but how would that be different if there were two, or a thousand? By attacking the class one is attacking every member of that class. What makes an ad hominem a logical fallacy is not whether it is addressed specifically or generally, but that it attacks the character or motivation of those who hold the position one is arguing against, rather than whether or not what one is arguing about is true. What would you call the fallacy of the second (general) statement, if not ad hominem?

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2017, 06:32:12 PM »

So you are saying that if someone says

"RE, you are a doomer because you are a social misfit."

that that is an ad hominem, while saying

"All doomers are motivated by being social misfits."

is not? Seems to me they are equally fallacious with respect to the question of the likelihood of doom.

Yes, that is basically it.

In the first statement, it is directed specifically AT THE MAN (me), aka AD HOM.

The second statement is looking at all Doomers as a class, and making a blanket generalization, which also is a logical fallacy and I would argue with whoever made the statement on that basis.  Then I would go ahead and demonstrate why it was incorrect as a blanket generalization.  Then after that I would go and call whoever made such a ridiculous statement a fucking idiot.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

Ok, then if someone says "all doomers who live in Palmer, AK and write blog posts on Endless Salad are doomers because they are social misfits" is not an ad hominem

No, that IS Ad Hom, because all the person is doing there is substituting a detailed descriptor for my name.  There is ONLY ONE Doomer in Palmer, Alaska who writes blog posts on Endless Salads!  :icon_sunny:

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Ka, you are the greatest Straight Man EVAH!  That was a fabulous set-up.   :icon_mrgreen:

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2017, 07:20:20 PM »

Ok, then if someone says "all doomers who live in Palmer, AK and write blog posts on Endless Salad are doomers because they are social misfits" is not an ad hominem

No, that IS Ad Hom, because all the person is doing there is substituting a detailed descriptor for my name.  There is ONLY ONE Doomer in Palmer, Alaska who writes blog posts on Endless Salads!  :icon_sunny:


Ah, you appear to not be aware of the difference between X and {X} (the set that contains X). What if there were only one eternalist in the world? Would that make a difference as to whether or not

"Eternalism and nihilism exist only out of fear of each other."

is an ad hominem? I don't see how.

As to calling it a strawman, if Chapman were attacking a straw man, it would be attacking something that sounds like eternalism (or nihilism), but isn't. Like an atheist attacking theism by treating God as a magnified Zeus. That is not the same as attacking the character or motivation of a theist.

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2017, 07:34:07 PM »

Ok, then if someone says "all doomers who live in Palmer, AK and write blog posts on Endless Salad are doomers because they are social misfits" is not an ad hominem

No, that IS Ad Hom, because all the person is doing there is substituting a detailed descriptor for my name.  There is ONLY ONE Doomer in Palmer, Alaska who writes blog posts on Endless Salads!  :icon_sunny:


Ah, you appear to not be aware of the difference between X and {X} (the set that contains X). What if there were only one eternalist in the world? Would that make a difference as to whether or not

"Eternalism and nihilism exist only out of fear of each other."

Yes it would.  If there is only one person around with that set of beliefs, then the attack could be construed as Ad Hom.  But there is not only one eternalist or nihilist walking the earth at the moment, so you can't finger the attack on a specific person.  It's an attack on a set of beliefs a class of people have.

Quote
As to calling it a strawman, if Chapman were attacking a straw man, it would be attacking something that sounds like eternalism (or nihilism), but isn't. Like an atheist attacking theism by treating God as a magnified Zeus. That is not the same as attacking the character or motivation of a theist.

No, it doesn't have to be attacking something that sounds like eternalism or nihilism.  It merely has to present another argument that is related, in this case what the motivations are for people who believe in nihilism or eternalism.  Then the argument drifts of onto that subject, if the debater on the other side isn't aware enough to see what is being done and point it out.  This is how I drive people nuts in arguments, I am very good at picking these things out and then pointing them out.  It frustrates the hell out of people used to being able to fling all sorts of nonsense into an argument.  I tripped Surly up this way recently, which led to him calling me a "fucking idiot". lol.

RE
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Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2017, 09:45:19 PM »

Yes it would.  If there is only one person around with that set of beliefs, then the attack could be construed as Ad Hom.  But there is not only one eternalist or nihilist walking the earth at the moment, so you can't finger the attack on a specific person.  It's an attack on a set of beliefs a class of people have.

What if there are exactly two eternalists? No longer an ad hominem? To question the character or motivation of a class of people is the same logical fallacy as questioning each of the members of the class one by one.

Quote
No, it doesn't have to be attacking something that sounds like eternalism or nihilism.  It merely has to present another argument that is related, in this case what the motivations are for people who believe in nihilism or eternalism.  Then the argument drifts of onto that subject, if the debater on the other side isn't aware enough to see what is being done and point it out.

That's way too general. If any case of misdirection is a strawman, then what distinguishes strawman arguments from any bad argument?

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2017, 10:03:47 PM »

Yes it would.  If there is only one person around with that set of beliefs, then the attack could be construed as Ad Hom.  But there is not only one eternalist or nihilist walking the earth at the moment, so you can't finger the attack on a specific person.  It's an attack on a set of beliefs a class of people have.

What if there are exactly two eternalists? No longer an ad hominem? To question the character or motivation of a class of people is the same logical fallacy as questioning each of the members of the class one by one.

Once past one, it's no longer Ad Hom because you have a class of 2 people.  It's not the same to question class belief as it is to impugn the motives of an individual in making an argument.

Quote
Quote
No, it doesn't have to be attacking something that sounds like eternalism or nihilism.  It merely has to present another argument that is related, in this case what the motivations are for people who believe in nihilism or eternalism.  Then the argument drifts of onto that subject, if the debater on the other side isn't aware enough to see what is being done and point it out.

That's way too general. If any case of misdirection is a strawman, then what distinguishes strawman arguments from any bad argument?

First off, I didn't say "any case of misdirection is a strawman", I gave a specific example of why this one is a strawman.  Second, bad arguments come in a HUGE variety of forms, they're not just misdirections.  I mentioned Gross Generalizations as one type of bad argument.  Others are just flat out illogical.  Some plainly contradict facts.  Some are based on Appeal to Authority, such as making an argument based on BARField's take on life.  This particular argument is a Straw Man, not an Ad Hom.  It's still not a real good argument of course, but it's not Ad Hom.

RE
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 10:19:11 PM by RE »
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Offline Ka

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2017, 11:25:21 PM »

Once past one, it's no longer Ad Hom because you have a class of 2 people.  It's not the same to question class belief as it is to impugn the motives of an individual in making an argument.

So "You believe in God, but anyone who believes in God is an idiot" is not an ad hominem.



Quote
Some are based on Appeal to Authority, such as making an argument based on BARField's take on life.

It is true that I have not given every reason to accept Barfield's take on life -- to do so would pretty much require typing in all of Saving the Appearances -- but I have given some of the reasoning. Since no one has rebutted even that some, I think I'm in the clear on this one.

Quote
This particular argument is a Straw Man, not an Ad Hom.  It's still not a real good argument of course, but it's not Ad Hom.

Is so. (argumentum ad obstinatum)

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2017, 01:15:32 AM »

Once past one, it's no longer Ad Hom because you have a class of 2 people.  It's not the same to question class belief as it is to impugn the motives of an individual in making an argument.

So "You believe in God, but anyone who believes in God is an idiot" is not an ad hominem.

Correct.  That is a Gross Generalization, not an Ad Hom.


Quote
Some are based on Appeal to Authority, such as making an argument based on BARField's take on life.

It is true that I have not given every reason to accept Barfield's take on life -- to do so would pretty much require typing in all of Saving the Appearances -- but I have given some of the reasoning. Since no one has rebutted even that some, I think I'm in the clear on this one.

It's been rebutted on many occasions in different ways by different Diners.  You just never listen to the rebuttals.

Quote
This particular argument is a Straw Man, not an Ad Hom.  It's still not a real good argument of course, but it's not Ad Hom.

Is so. (argumentum ad obstinatum)

That is a mirror of your ability to ignore anyone who rebuts BARField. :P

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2017, 05:52:46 AM »
I was reading this thread and my phone rang.  It was a credit card collection call.  I spilled my entire freshly made french pressed coffee all over the white carpet somehow while answering the call.  Indian voice "this call may be recorded..." I hung up.

God did it to me.   ;D

The dog also took one of my flip flops and hid it beneath the bed.  Harper was eating toothpaste this morning.  I'm supposed to go cut a tree down today.  Think I might stay home instead. 

Offline RE

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Re: Extreme examples, eternalism and nihilism
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2017, 10:17:15 AM »
I was reading this thread and my phone rang.  It was a credit card collection call.  I spilled my entire freshly made french pressed coffee all over the white carpet somehow while answering the call.  Indian voice "this call may be recorded..." I hung up.

God did it to me.   ;D

The dog also took one of my flip flops and hid it beneath the bed.  Harper was eating toothpaste this morning.  I'm supposed to go cut a tree down today.  Think I might stay home instead.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/7WAwuSK36Gw" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/7WAwuSK36Gw</a>

RE
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