AuthorTopic: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation  (Read 10625 times)

Offline DoctorWhom

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Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« on: July 01, 2017, 11:44:26 PM »
I'm practicing doing improvised talks. I'm asking Knarf to either give his opinion or link to some of essays that may touch on related topics. I don't want to be a burden on his time. I just want,a t least once, to request the Buddhist perspective on my own thought. I don't know much about Buddhism, but I read the book "Buddhism Without Beliefs" a while ago. I thought much of it seemed obvious. I'm sure I'd have disagreements if I went back and read it.

I have some bad habits I'm working on in these talk. I say "you know" too much as filler, but it comes and goes. And the dry mouth.

https://soundcloud.com/eric-hiatt-481767403/wake-up
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2017, 01:57:56 AM »
Your language is a mixture of Buddhist understanding, and modern psychological explanations. I find that the modern psychological language to be misleading. There are too many opinions on the definitions of the words. For me I suddenly awoke one day that everything I took for granted, seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching, and mind generated logic/intuition was ALL being created in my own mind. It was a very clear insight and so I began my search for others that had an understanding of this phenomena. That lead me to an older Buddhist monk ( 18 years ) who knew exactly what my insight was.
  You, at some point in your life have experienced "consciousness without an object". Probably with aid of psychoactive drugs like LSD, and sometimes strong marijuana. What you try to explain in your podcast is a bit meandering because you are using language that the western world and it's belief that reasoning will bring understanding and results. In Buddhism it has been known for centuries that all phenomena is mind created. Being in corporal form ( a human being ) leads us into suffering because what Buddhists call "the wheel of dependent origination". You can search for different interpretations of that on the internet and find hundreds of essays on it.
  The process that Buddhists use is meditation. I was instructed in meditation in the following manner. Find a comfortable sitting position ( the old monk said lying down for him was most effective ) and use a focal point, like a candle flame or what I used was a spot on the wall. Stare at this focal point, and when the mind wanders, bring your concentration back to only focusing on the object being used ( for me the spot on the wall) for about 25 minutes at a time. I would do this twice a day, when I woke up and in the evening. At first my mind was constantly darting about , making conceptual thought. Slowly over a period of about six months, the conceptual thoughts kept subsiding. I then could sit down and start meditating and all the conceptual thoughts had faded away. 5 minutes was very easy because I had no sense of time ( I sometimes sat for an hour or so with no thoughts) . My mind became very clear and awake, but it no longer was grasping at any thoughts. When I reached that point, the older monk instructed me to keep this "empty mind" when going about my daily routines. After about 5 years of doing this, it just became the way I lived. Now I get my nourishment from the 7th chakra which is wordless.
  With the mind being empty of constantly making conceptual thought and logic, it is quite easy to know when thoughts arise...( wheel of dependent origination ), and just watch them arise and then dissipate. I think you have this knowledge of conceptual thought and logic being caused by our six senses. But, you have no methodology to stop the constant barrage of thoughts. I think you have habits now of trying to explain this through the means you were conditioned by. I do not preach this Buddhist practice, so this is just my approximation of the state you are mostly in. I think you drink and and smoke to stop grasping and clinging to the illusions of your thoughts.
  I looked at your natal birth chart when you told us your birth date and age. Mars and Mercury are almost exactly in the same position when you were born. You have the tendency to immediately express your gut feelings/intuitions. You are very close to explaining the truth about the illusions we create in our mind ( and believe they are realistic ), and desiring to stop clinging to them. There is a saying that goes, "when the student is ready the teacher will appear". I hope that happens soon for you.   
 
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Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 11:25:51 AM »
Quote
I think you drink and and smoke to stop grasping and clinging to the illusions of your thoughts.

Yes. It's why I always refer to "The Matrix" and wanting to escape. I don't believe we can in a sense and that would take an essay to explain, but my intuition has differences from Buddhist belief, which is what I'd want to discuss. Also though, my normal subjective state is inherently anxious and "lonely" because of the way "abandonment" manifests as a homeostatic signal for some irritating reason of cosmic accident, and we don't understand the relationship between subjective states and thought right now. It's clear that substances such as alcohol and pot affect these relationships. The point is that I'm trying to escape discomfort. And I do with cannabis. And briefly with alcohol, until I become a raging moron. I can also get angry on cannabis, bit it's way better and more in control.

I think the person I've agreed with the most was Jiddu Krishnimurti, who was "nothing" as far as I know. I'd love to hear his thoughts in the context of modern understandings* (asterisked words would take a lot of discussion to make clear). Or perhaps Mr. Rogers on any matters not pertaining to God, since he was I minister as far as I know. I also use "The Matrix" to argue for children's rights in various contexts - like exposure to advertising. That's "neurological programming" from my perspective, which creates The Matrix (just going to use the pop-metaphor for convenience).

I also don't like modern psychological language. I can take several perspectives on why, but my habit is to take a mechanistic one because I'm interested in the existential risk consequences of being perfectly deterministic. Quickly note that the other options are "Nothing is deterministic", which I can't see as being anything put perfect chaos. Or there is order without determinism, but order implies rules, which means future states are determined*, which is a contradiction. There could also be "order sometimes" or "contradictions are possible", but then we can't prove anything at all. Also, if there's order, we apparently can't prove it, but I'll get to that later.

Quote
For me I suddenly awoke one day that everything I took for granted, seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching, and mind generated logic/intuition was ALL being created in my own mind.

I'm constantly playing with this, and the strange states of mind I'm able to achieve can "feedback" into my conceptual understanding, making me more subjectively confident in issues I'm thinking about. For example, when I switch to the "it's all in the head perspective" I can experience several things, from a "stuffiness coming from a sense of emptiness behind everything", or a sort of "flatness" of existence with awareness sandwiched between a forever-unseeable void and a supposed external world. It reveals the "two dimensional" creatures we are, for we can see neither into the generating void*, nor into the supposed external reality, which is an aspect of the generating void. The Buddhist perspective seems different on those matters, but it would be existentially irresponsible* to rule out these models. I'm not sure if Buddhists care* if we live or die. If dying weren't painful, would the Buddhist slide into death? I've become so curious about death that I'm actually excited by mine, as long as I get to go my chosen, peaceful way. Just a final ritual.

I also find being "all in my head" can create an eerie sensation that what's outside of us is truly dark, and right now that darkness is unraveling as the state of the planet shows. So I imagine human beings content with the illusions of the mind while this vast darkness of the planet is unraveling around them at an accelerating rate. When I say people "don't have a clue", I'm often referring to the fact they can't see that they're just all in their heads, and that they're not seeing the real world, at all - because we no idea what it actually looks like. We have models of patterns in our heads that are supposed to correlate with a few aspects of the Universe. That's it. 

Is to exist to have a desire, or can it be merely to avoid pain and in the meantime leave The Matrix? What's it mean to desire to have no pain? I'm not sure what other states people can achieve in their minds, Buddhist or otherwise, but do Buddhists ever trust that others are achieving conscious states such as theirs? Because this trust could only manifest in a perception of order, and order would seem to be both conceptual and deterministic. In fact, the concept of Buddhism itself can only exist conceptually, and would seem to only exist as a system of teachings because of conceptual thought. This implies also an inescapable desire or two. The fact that Buddhism holds together is because of rules, and the rules that hold Buddhism together wouldn't, to my intuition, "stop" at manifesting the structure that is Buddhism, and for Buddhism to propose that the structure stops there could only come from an understanding generated as part of the structure that Buddhism depends upon. It it would seem strange, in other words, if Buddhism were "everything at all or possible".

But Kurt Godel said this would be impossible - to have such knowledge. It would seem that the order required for Buddhism to exist, whether Buddhism recognizes or not, is sufficient to manifest for the incompleteness theorems to apply. Buddhists can't even know if the Universe is inherently contradictory, and the only way to "know" this, is to use logic that you can't prove the consistency of. So, what, then, is the "everything" being generated by the mind? I see the mind as a phenomenon, rather than all phenomenon being mind generated, because that it "mind-centric". It treats humans like omnipresent Gods. How does the phenomenon that is consciousness "know" that nothing else is "out there"? What if LSD to us is like an aspirin to a more intelligent alien species. What if we, as entities, haven't even scratched the surface of subjective existence? 


I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
Quote
I think you drink and and smoke to stop grasping and clinging to the illusions of your thoughts.

Yes. It's why I always refer to "The Matrix" and wanting to escape. I don't believe we can in a sense and that would take an essay to explain, but my intuition has differences from Buddhist belief, which is what I'd want to discuss. Also though, my normal subjective state is inherently anxious and "lonely" because of the way "abandonment" manifests as a homeostatic signal for some irritating reason of cosmic accident, and we don't understand the relationship between subjective states and thought right now. It's clear that substances such as alcohol and pot affect these relationships. The point is that I'm trying to escape discomfort. And I do with cannabis. And briefly with alcohol, until I become a raging moron. I can also get angry on cannabis, bit it's way better and more in control.

I think the person I've agreed with the most was Jiddu Krishnimurti, who was "nothing" as far as I know. I'd love to hear his thoughts in the context of modern understandings* (asterisked words would take a lot of discussion to make clear). Or perhaps Mr. Rogers on any matters not pertaining to God, since he was I minister as far as I know. I also use "The Matrix" to argue for children's rights in various contexts - like exposure to advertising. That's "neurological programming" from my perspective, which creates The Matrix (just going to use the pop-metaphor for convenience).

I also don't like modern psychological language. I can take several perspectives on why, but my habit is to take a mechanistic one because I'm interested in the existential risk consequences of being perfectly deterministic. Quickly note that the other options are "Nothing is deterministic", which I can't see as being anything put perfect chaos. Or there is order without determinism, but order implies rules, which means future states are determined*, which is a contradiction. There could also be "order sometimes" or "contradictions are possible", but then we can't prove anything at all. Also, if there's order, we apparently can't prove it, but I'll get to that later.

Quote
For me I suddenly awoke one day that everything I took for granted, seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching, and mind generated logic/intuition was ALL being created in my own mind.

I'm constantly playing with this, and the strange states of mind I'm able to achieve can "feedback" into my conceptual understanding, making me more subjectively confident in issues I'm thinking about. For example, when I switch to the "it's all in the head perspective" I can experience several things, from a "stuffiness coming from a sense of emptiness behind everything", or a sort of "flatness" of existence with awareness sandwiched between a forever-unseeable void and a supposed external world. It reveals the "two dimensional" creatures we are, for we can see neither into the generating void*, nor into the supposed external reality, which is an aspect of the generating void. The Buddhist perspective seems different on those matters, but it would be existentially irresponsible* to rule out these models. I'm not sure if Buddhists care* if we live or die. If dying weren't painful, would the Buddhist slide into death? I've become so curious about death that I'm actually excited by mine, as long as I get to go my chosen, peaceful way. Just a final ritual.

I also find being "all in my head" can create an eerie sensation that what's outside of us is truly dark, and right now that darkness is unraveling as the state of the planet shows. So I imagine human beings content with the illusions of the mind while this vast darkness of the planet is unraveling around them at an accelerating rate. When I say people "don't have a clue", I'm often referring to the fact they can't see that they're just all in their heads, and that they're not seeing the real world, at all - because we no idea what it actually looks like. We have models of patterns in our heads that are supposed to correlate with a few aspects of the Universe. That's it. 

Is to exist to have a desire, or can it be merely to avoid pain and in the meantime leave The Matrix? What's it mean to desire to have no pain? I'm not sure what other states people can achieve in their minds, Buddhist or otherwise, but do Buddhists ever trust that others are achieving conscious states such as theirs? Because this trust could only manifest in a perception of order, and order would seem to be both conceptual and deterministic. In fact, the concept of Buddhism itself can only exist conceptually, and would seem to only exist as a system of teachings because of conceptual thought. This implies also an inescapable desire or two. The fact that Buddhism holds together is because of rules, and the rules that hold Buddhism together wouldn't, to my intuition, "stop" at manifesting the structure that is Buddhism, and for Buddhism to propose that the structure stops there could only come from an understanding generated as part of the structure that Buddhism depends upon. It it would seem strange, in other words, if Buddhism were "everything at all or possible".

But Kurt Godel said this would be impossible - to have such knowledge. It would seem that the order required for Buddhism to exist, whether Buddhism recognizes or not, is sufficient to manifest for the incompleteness theorems to apply. Buddhists can't even know if the Universe is inherently contradictory, and the only way to "know" this, is to use logic that you can't prove the consistency of. So, what, then, is the "everything" being generated by the mind? I see the mind as a phenomenon, rather than all phenomenon being mind generated, because that it "mind-centric". It treats humans like omnipresent Gods. How does the phenomenon that is consciousness "know" that nothing else is "out there"? What if LSD to us is like an aspirin to a more intelligent alien species. What if we, as entities, haven't even scratched the surface of subjective existence?

Most of the thinking process is the fate of the human species. Each of us have our own set of conditioning, genetic, environment, and for me astrological. Our brains are conditioned to fire in an almost a predictable way, and for each one us it is always is a different complex of neuron connections. You seem to be able to make millions of varying connections, and thereby have such a rich and complex thinking process and use the best language you can to describe it to others. Doesn't it make sense to you to still/ and get free of that mental "matrix" without the use of alcohol or pot. :)  Why don't you try what worked for me? It does take discipline to sit for 25 minutes a day and stare at a spot on the wall, but this method has worked for many people who have come here and all over the world, and they have reached a state of mind that is no longer bothering them. Oh and yes, many people reach this state of mind without any knowledge of the Buddhist method. In all religions , many people reach a state of mind that John Lennon wrote about "All we need is love." That just doesn't cut it for me. Most of the time I don't feel very "loving"! I want those people to just leave me alone. Also, I am in an environment that is specifically designed so that I do not have to interact with other people in a social way, so I can devote my time to taking care of my own mind/body complex. It becomes doubly complex when interacting with others who have completely different views of the world...and I don't think at this point in my life I could do it. I would rather just off myself than go back into the "world" and deal with that. I have stopped trying to figure out the universe and the psychological complexities that plague most all of mankind.
  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.
HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING. BACKWARDS!

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2017, 10:12:05 PM »
Most of the thinking process is the fate of the human species. Each of us have our own set of conditioning, genetic, environment, and for me astrological. Our brains are conditioned to fire in an almost a predictable way, and for each one us it is always is a different complex of neuron connections. You seem to be able to make millions of varying connections, and thereby have such a rich and complex thinking process and use the best language you can to describe it to others. Doesn't it make sense to you to still/ and get free of that mental "matrix" without the use of alcohol or pot. :)  Why don't you try what worked for me? It does take discipline to sit for 25 minutes a day and stare at a spot on the wall, but this method has worked for many people who have come here and all over the world, and they have reached a state of mind that is no longer bothering them. Oh and yes, many people reach this state of mind without any knowledge of the Buddhist method. In all religions , many people reach a state of mind that John Lennon wrote about "All we need is love." That just doesn't cut it for me. Most of the time I don't feel very "loving"! I want those people to just leave me alone. Also, I am in an environment that is specifically designed so that I do not have to interact with other people in a social way, so I can devote my time to taking care of my own mind/body complex. It becomes doubly complex when interacting with others who have completely different views of the world...and I don't think at this point in my life I could do it. I would rather just off myself than go back into the "world" and deal with that. I have stopped trying to figure out the universe and the psychological complexities that plague most all of mankind.
  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

There are many ways to approach the alcohol and pot issue. First I'll say that I can't speak on behalf of alcohol because I can't keep from abusing it, while others can, or they can't and they can still do art like Hemingway or otherwise function. I'm speaking of pot, but I'm sure this applies to other substances. And I'm sure if we didn't have what I'm going to argue is actually a catastrophically irrational taboo, human collective intelligence would skyrocket because we'd have numerous perceptual feedbacks that would not only give us the most important feedback possible when we talk about the effects of something - the effects on consciousness - we'd have paradigms of scientific research into this. We could even have proof of my intelligence argument, but first I'll give an intuitive one:

When you are on pot you have access to quite a few different subjective state spaces, and by those I just mean the totality of subjective experience as it's experienced in the ways we can break it down, such in terms of the visual field, audio field, proprioceptive use of the mind, and so on. This creates a different perception of any given idea. For example, having your favorite food is going to be a different experience sitting at a table than standing in front of a mountain, or a live volcano. And it's going to be different in a lot of ways - the mountain is going to create a different subjective state within you. How? The answer is actually drugs, but just drugs that are produced in the brain.

And in the context of the mountain, which creates a different subjective state, your thinking is different because the immensity and beauty of the object, not to mention the potentially relatively clean air full of natural scents. And in the context of this thinking, which in some people will include existential and other reflective considerations, you'll consider your favorite food. And you might come to more deeply appreciate some aspects of it, and you may take these realizations "back" with you. You take not just memories home in the abstract, but changes in perception rooted in the subjective change in which information was considered. I like to imagine "subjectively bathing" information. Perhaps something having to do with "emotional memory" facilitates how information can change you in different ways - the difference between seeing the sun in a powerful telescope and seeing a picture in an encyclopedia.

Pot just lets you see some things in a powerful telescope, which is just an analogy for the utter qualitative change in experience analogous to that of eating lunch in the presence of a mountain versus the office cubicle, and the matter seems to reduce to brain-chemistry-influencing context. Now, you might use pot in the office cubicle, but then again your subjective state is changed, so maybe when you're having lunch, you do actually have some insights about that otherwise boring apple you're eating in the context of a different subjective state space, and you're able to take some of these insights back, and your perspective on things has grown just a little more, and we should note then that wisdom is a culmination of such little insights gathered from here and there. Also note that on different substances you take note of different slices of reality, so you are sampling an information pool that you don't otherwise while sober. There is much overlap, of course.

This is getting long, but I have a rather lengthy argument that cutting off the use of substances lowers human collective intelligence not just a little, but by orders of magnitude. We could use entropy as a metric for example. Instead of deleting DNA from the Universe, which took billions of years to engineer, and breaking down ecological functioning, which is to say the machinery of the planet (and to see this on pot in particular), our species would be increasing order on this planet. A lot of this would simply be information, but there could certainly be an increase in ecological complexity overall (e.g. experimental/engineered biomes, even if minuscule as long as we were otherwise ecological stabilized). The point is that we're a lot dumber for it, which increases our existential risk. That is, not allowing us to use the mind in all its capacity is suicide because it cuts us off from exploring the solution space of existence. I was curious if there's anything here you disagree with.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 12:37:55 AM »
DW , you ask about post..."I was curious if there's anything here you disagree with."

No, if this is your belief system, so be it.
HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING. BACKWARDS!

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 06:20:40 AM »
DW , you ask about post..."I was curious if there's anything here you disagree with."

No, if this is your belief system, so be it.

I wouldn't call it a "belief system" since those tend to involve more complex behavioral aspects such as morality or traditional sets of ideas. I suppose scientific thinking is a "traditional set of ideas", but it's really just the same process we use to trust the sun will be there each morning. Patterns come to be trusted in the mind, and science searches for patterns and their explanations. Use of the patterns we neurological encode could be called a "belief" I suppose, but then everything becomes a belief.  I just try to account for the order that we witness, consider the order and disorder we're missing, and what the consequences are. And it's okay to disagree. I disagree with astrology because I don't see how there can be such a causal mechanism and demographic data would show no evidence for it, for example.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 06:51:32 AM »

  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

I've always liked the analogy of the "monkey mind."  I think it explains the ego perfectly.  A book that really helped me understand the ego is Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now."  I think I was 21 when I first ran into that book (before Opra got ahold of it)   ::)

I was driving from California to Washington to turn myself in after being UA and missing ships movement.  I was at day 28 I believe.  Anyways, I pulled over somewhere in Oregon and had a peak experience meditating on insights about the ego that were gained from reading that book.  It was a sort of enlightenment, Samadhi perhaps.  Everything dropped away and I just was without monkey mind.  It was bliss. 

With respect to the second statement of yours that I bolded.  I don't understand a few things about what you have stated.  Your ego is what typed the above message.  It's interacting with us on this platform that is the Diner.  Even Buddha had an ego.  How else could he have communicated with his disciples?  Without ego one must be completely isolated from other people...like in a mountain cave.  I suppose a Buddhist monastery could fit the bill.  However, with the internet we can interact with people without being in their presence.  This is a slippery slope where ego is concerned.  In many important ways this interaction is no different then in person interaction.  Granted, it's devoid of all the unspoken, body language, energy type communications, but nevertheless it's still interaction with other egos.  In order to do that you have to use your ego, and to a certain extent you are therefore entangling your ego with others. 

So why do you interact on the Diner Knarf?  To be clear, I'm glad that you do, it's just that I'm seeing a contradiction here.  I don't want you to go anywhere, but I want to understand your perspective better. 

Also, I'd like to point out how difficult it becomes to persist in those egoless states when you have children.  They are very energetic, and they can suck you down to their emotional states very easily.  They blow a fuse over trifling shit like toys.  Small grievances become emotional emergencies for them.  They get loud, the cry, they scream, they lose their temper, and they are your children.  You have to address them in these states, and it becomes very difficult to stay on an even keel.  Concentrating on anything can be almost impossible with kids around, even when you get yourself behind a closed door.  Often just typing one message here takes me several different attempt due to interruptions.  I call parenting "the state of perpetual interruption." 

I completely understand why Siddharth Gautama left his wife and child.  Of course, he was a prince, and he left them in a state where their physical needs were going to be met due to their nobility.  I'm just saying that I understand the need.  There is a Hindu story about a guy who went out into the jungle and ran into a guru.  The guru sent him to get water.  While he was getting water he saw a beautiful women, and he married here and they had children.  Years go by and this man finds himself in the presence of this guru once again.  The guru asks him what took him so long to get the water.  I'm not doing this story any justice.  Perhaps you've heard it and can tell it better.  The point, for me at least, is that taking on the responsibility of raising children has priority over spiritual disciplines.  You can have spiritual practices, and in ways I suppose children can help you by challenging you with completing those disciplines. 

Either way, I made the decision to get married and then I made the decision to have children.  I went for the water and got distracted by beauty  :laugh:  Our actions have consequences.   

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 07:44:01 AM »

  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

I've always liked the analogy of the "monkey mind."  I think it explains the ego perfectly.  A book that really helped me understand the ego is Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now."  I think I was 21 when I first ran into that book (before Opra got ahold of it)   ::)

I was driving from California to Washington to turn myself in after being UA and missing ships movement.  I was at day 28 I believe.  Anyways, I pulled over somewhere in Oregon and had a peak experience meditating on insights about the ego that were gained from reading that book.  It was a sort of enlightenment, Samadhi perhaps.  Everything dropped away and I just was without monkey mind.  It was bliss. 

With respect to the second statement of yours that I bolded.  I don't understand a few things about what you have stated.  Your ego is what typed the above message.  It's interacting with us on this platform that is the Diner.  Even Buddha had an ego.  How else could he have communicated with his disciples?  Without ego one must be completely isolated from other people...like in a mountain cave.  I suppose a Buddhist monastery could fit the bill.  However, with the internet we can interact with people without being in their presence.  This is a slippery slope where ego is concerned.  In many important ways this interaction is no different then in person interaction.  Granted, it's devoid of all the unspoken, body language, energy type communications, but nevertheless it's still interaction with other egos.  In order to do that you have to use your ego, and to a certain extent you are therefore entangling your ego with others. 

So why do you interact on the Diner Knarf?  To be clear, I'm glad that you do, it's just that I'm seeing a contradiction here.  I don't want you to go anywhere, but I want to understand your perspective better. 

Also, I'd like to point out how difficult it becomes to persist in those egoless states when you have children.  They are very energetic, and they can suck you down to their emotional states very easily.  They blow a fuse over trifling shit like toys.  Small grievances become emotional emergencies for them.  They get loud, the cry, they scream, they lose their temper, and they are your children.  You have to address them in these states, and it becomes very difficult to stay on an even keel.  Concentrating on anything can be almost impossible with kids around, even when you get yourself behind a closed door.  Often just typing one message here takes me several different attempt due to interruptions.  I call parenting "the state of perpetual interruption." 

I completely understand why Siddharth Gautama left his wife and child.  Of course, he was a prince, and he left them in a state where their physical needs were going to be met due to their nobility.  I'm just saying that I understand the need.  There is a Hindu story about a guy who went out into the jungle and ran into a guru.  The guru sent him to get water.  While he was getting water he saw a beautiful women, and he married here and they had children.  Years go by and this man finds himself in the presence of this guru once again.  The guru asks him what took him so long to get the water.  I'm not doing this story any justice.  Perhaps you've heard it and can tell it better.  The point, for me at least, is that taking on the responsibility of raising children has priority over spiritual disciplines.  You can have spiritual practices, and in ways I suppose children can help you by challenging you with completing those disciplines. 

Either way, I made the decision to get married and then I made the decision to have children.  I went for the water and got distracted by beauty  :laugh:  Our actions have consequences.   

I thought someone would doubt that statement, and I am glad to answer. The ego is the shell we have made up to protect and verify our point of view. I went through 8 years of training to be able to act and respond to this world without having that shell. Unless you have done this, there is NO WAY you or anyone can understand. I don't think about what I am typing, it is all coming from a thoughtless mind. I don't juggle concepts, or try to prove "my" point of view. (ego)
  It is like a when a pickpocket walks down the street all he sees is pockets. In a similar way ,because you have to maintain an ego to survive out there you believe that is what I am doing when I post the news or comment on something. You have got to go through a fairly long process with a trained teacher of ego loss for many years to do what I am doing. There is no other way, because it is so easy to revert to the habits that are grooved in the mind to make you a "person" in the world. I am not in the world and have no need to have that protection or any personality. When ever I slipped back into that precious illusion of ego, I would be questioned about what the hell I thought I was doing....for years. You make an assumption thinking and projecting your state of mind onto me. That is just the normal way people who live in the world do their communicating. It is really cool that you had an experience of ego loss, and I understand why you have to maintain one while interacting with countless other people who only know there mental constructs as guides. Maybe when your finished raising your children you could leave the world, enter a monastery and be done with juggling concepts to make your life work. But until then it is almost impossible to get on in the world without a sense of self. I won't accept your statement that I respond on the dinner with an ego, because I know I don't. Doing this for thirty years and doing it while I was in the Bodhisattva vow ( about 15 years), I have no ax to grind, and I am just acting spontaneously. I have an open mind, so I hear what is going on in the world, so when something seems poignant enough I post it as news.
 
HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING. BACKWARDS!

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 03:32:55 PM »

  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

I've always liked the analogy of the "monkey mind."  I think it explains the ego perfectly.  A book that really helped me understand the ego is Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now."  I think I was 21 when I first ran into that book (before Opra got ahold of it)   ::)

I was driving from California to Washington to turn myself in after being UA and missing ships movement.  I was at day 28 I believe.  Anyways, I pulled over somewhere in Oregon and had a peak experience meditating on insights about the ego that were gained from reading that book.  It was a sort of enlightenment, Samadhi perhaps.  Everything dropped away and I just was without monkey mind.  It was bliss. 

With respect to the second statement of yours that I bolded.  I don't understand a few things about what you have stated.  Your ego is what typed the above message.  It's interacting with us on this platform that is the Diner.  Even Buddha had an ego.  How else could he have communicated with his disciples?  Without ego one must be completely isolated from other people...like in a mountain cave.  I suppose a Buddhist monastery could fit the bill.  However, with the internet we can interact with people without being in their presence.  This is a slippery slope where ego is concerned.  In many important ways this interaction is no different then in person interaction.  Granted, it's devoid of all the unspoken, body language, energy type communications, but nevertheless it's still interaction with other egos.  In order to do that you have to use your ego, and to a certain extent you are therefore entangling your ego with others. 

So why do you interact on the Diner Knarf?  To be clear, I'm glad that you do, it's just that I'm seeing a contradiction here.  I don't want you to go anywhere, but I want to understand your perspective better. 

Also, I'd like to point out how difficult it becomes to persist in those egoless states when you have children.  They are very energetic, and they can suck you down to their emotional states very easily.  They blow a fuse over trifling shit like toys.  Small grievances become emotional emergencies for them.  They get loud, the cry, they scream, they lose their temper, and they are your children.  You have to address them in these states, and it becomes very difficult to stay on an even keel.  Concentrating on anything can be almost impossible with kids around, even when you get yourself behind a closed door.  Often just typing one message here takes me several different attempt due to interruptions.  I call parenting "the state of perpetual interruption." 

I completely understand why Siddharth Gautama left his wife and child.  Of course, he was a prince, and he left them in a state where their physical needs were going to be met due to their nobility.  I'm just saying that I understand the need.  There is a Hindu story about a guy who went out into the jungle and ran into a guru.  The guru sent him to get water.  While he was getting water he saw a beautiful women, and he married here and they had children.  Years go by and this man finds himself in the presence of this guru once again.  The guru asks him what took him so long to get the water.  I'm not doing this story any justice.  Perhaps you've heard it and can tell it better.  The point, for me at least, is that taking on the responsibility of raising children has priority over spiritual disciplines.  You can have spiritual practices, and in ways I suppose children can help you by challenging you with completing those disciplines. 

Either way, I made the decision to get married and then I made the decision to have children.  I went for the water and got distracted by beauty  :laugh:  Our actions have consequences.   

I thought someone would doubt that statement, and I am glad to answer. The ego is the shell we have made up to protect and verify our point of view. I went through 8 years of training to be able to act and respond to this world without having that shell. Unless you have done this, there is NO WAY you or anyone can understand. I don't think about what I am typing, it is all coming from a thoughtless mind. I don't juggle concepts, or try to prove "my" point of view. (ego)
  It is like a when a pickpocket walks down the street all he sees is pockets. In a similar way ,because you have to maintain an ego to survive out there you believe that is what I am doing when I post the news or comment on something. You have got to go through a fairly long process with a trained teacher of ego loss for many years to do what I am doing. There is no other way, because it is so easy to revert to the habits that are grooved in the mind to make you a "person" in the world. I am not in the world and have no need to have that protection or any personality. When ever I slipped back into that precious illusion of ego, I would be questioned about what the hell I thought I was doing....for years. You make an assumption thinking and projecting your state of mind onto me. That is just the normal way people who live in the world do their communicating. It is really cool that you had an experience of ego loss, and I understand why you have to maintain one while interacting with countless other people who only know there mental constructs as guides. Maybe when your finished raising your children you could leave the world, enter a monastery and be done with juggling concepts to make your life work. But until then it is almost impossible to get on in the world without a sense of self. I won't accept your statement that I respond on the dinner with an ego, because I know I don't. Doing this for thirty years and doing it while I was in the Bodhisattva vow ( about 15 years), I have no ax to grind, and I am just acting spontaneously. I have an open mind, so I hear what is going on in the world, so when something seems poignant enough I post it as news.

The question I wanted to ask was about entropy. For you to simply to exist is to create disorder in the world, unless you somehow create more order than disorder, which would be difficult to measure, but I think it'd be possible to define a metric. The point is that creating disorder can be synonymous with being a burden to all other life, which could use the resources you use in their place, human or otherwise. To exist, therefor, is to be egoistic, and in inherent competition with all other life on the planet, unless you work to fight entropy, then life holds together longer.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 04:39:04 PM »
I don't agree at all.
HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING. BACKWARDS!

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 04:52:49 PM »
I don't agree at all.

About the model we have of the Universe? It just follows from the same rules as whatever order there is in your perceived world. That is, the order that is in your world extrapolates in such a way that it makes our current existence coherent. That is the origin of the apparent consistency.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 05:34:33 PM »
I don't agree at all.

I'm pretty sure that's a statement of ego.  I mean you can't disagree and be egoless at the same time can you?  Then again the Buddha said a lot of things.  Things that are true...I believe.

However, "I" can't disagree, or agree if "I" has no ego. 

An egoless "I" has no opinion.  It just watches the phantasmagorical world pass by without opinion.  It watches the monkey mind without opinion.  It has no attachment to one thing or the other.  It is without opinion. 

It just is in its insness. 

I put forth that "Knarf" has an ego, and he uses it to communicate here on the Diner.  That is not a judgment, or a negative, or positive, it just is.  How can one disagree, or agree, with anything without use of an ego?  Makes no sense to me.  But then I didn't take the Bodhisattva vow.  I strongly considered it actually.  I wanted to make that vow. 

How can you make the Bodhisattva vow and then stop honoring it?  Isn't it a life long discipline?  Isn't it a multi-lifelong discipline?  To agree to reincarnate until all sentient life is freed from the wheel of suffering?  You cant make it for 16 years and then stop. 

I'm confused by your antics Knarf. 

I also can't give you any credit based on simple words flung out into the Matrix on the internet.  Eventually, in aggregate, if enough words make sense, then I can assign them to "Knarf."  An avatar.  An online ego associated with the Diner...a site that proselytizes the collapse of our modern technological civilization.   
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 05:37:08 PM by luciddreams »

Offline RE

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 05:48:14 PM »
I don't agree at all.

I'm pretty sure that's a statement of ego.  I mean you can't disagree and be egoless at the same time can you?  Then again the Buddha said a lot of things.  Things that are true...I believe.

However, "I" can't disagree, or agree if "I" has no ego. 

An egoless "I" has no opinion.  It just watches the phantasmagorical world pass by without opinion.  It watches the monkey mind without opinion.  It has no attachment to one thing or the other.  It is without opinion. 

It just is in its insness. 

I put forth that "Knarf" has an ego, and he uses it to communicate here on the Diner.  That is not a judgment, or a negative, or positive, it just is.  How can one disagree, or agree, with anything without use of an ego?  Makes no sense to me.  But then I didn't take the Bodhisattva vow.  I strongly considered it actually.  I wanted to make that vow. 

How can you make the Bodhisattva vow and then stop honoring it?  Isn't it a life long discipline?  Isn't it a multi-lifelong discipline?  To agree to reincarnate until all sentient life is freed from the wheel of suffering?  You cant make it for 16 years and then stop. 

I'm confused by your antics Knarf. 

I also can't give you any credit based on simple words flung out into the Matrix on the internet.  Eventually, in aggregate, if enough words make sense, then I can assign them to "Knarf."  An avatar.  An online ego associated with the Diner...a site that proselytizes the collapse of our modern technological civilization.   

*I* DEFINITELY have an EGO.  It's BIGGER THAN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE!.  So I have no philosophical quandary to resolve here.  :icon_sunny:

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 06:02:54 PM »
I don't agree at all.

I'm pretty sure that's a statement of ego.  I mean you can't disagree and be egoless at the same time can you?  Then again the Buddha said a lot of things.  Things that are true...I believe.

However, "I" can't disagree, or agree if "I" has no ego. 

An egoless "I" has no opinion.  It just watches the phantasmagorical world pass by without opinion.  It watches the monkey mind without opinion.  It has no attachment to one thing or the other.  It is without opinion. 

It just is in its insness. 

I put forth that "Knarf" has an ego, and he uses it to communicate here on the Diner.  That is not a judgment, or a negative, or positive, it just is.  How can one disagree, or agree, with anything without use of an ego?  Makes no sense to me.  But then I didn't take the Bodhisattva vow.  I strongly considered it actually.  I wanted to make that vow. 

How can you make the Bodhisattva vow and then stop honoring it?  Isn't it a life long discipline?  Isn't it a multi-lifelong discipline?  To agree to reincarnate until all sentient life is freed from the wheel of suffering?  You cant make it for 16 years and then stop. 

I'm confused by your antics Knarf. 

I also can't give you any credit based on simple words flung out into the Matrix on the internet.  Eventually, in aggregate, if enough words make sense, then I can assign them to "Knarf."  An avatar.  An online ego associated with the Diner...a site that proselytizes the collapse of our modern technological civilization.   

*I* DEFINITELY have an EGO.  It's BIGGER THAN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE!.  So I have no philosophical quandary to resolve here.  :icon_sunny:

RE

Indeed!  I have a healthy ego as well.  A self-actualizing ego, which is the process by which egos go through to become healthy.  Communication is not possible without ego.  The Buddha had an ego.  Probably the most healthy ego the world has ever known.  The most "self-actualized" ego.  Only needing ego to communicate to his disciples, nothing more, and for no other purpose. 

I find mythology a very entertaining and informative way to understand the undertones of these associations.  It's all there, in all of the worlds myths, if you have the ability to read for comprehension  ;D

 

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