AuthorTopic: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation  (Read 8481 times)

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2017, 11:19:15 PM »


Throw me in the shallow water before I get too deep.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2017, 09:44:08 AM »


Throw me in the shallow water before I get too deep.

I used to refer to that "fractal food", but I forgot what it was called. Looks like part of that "mustard family" or whatever it is that cauliflower, broccoli and other vegetables are selected from.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2017, 09:53:51 AM »
And what do you mean you took Cal IV?

Calc I: Differential Calculus in one Variable
Calc II: Integral Calculus in one Variable
Calc III: Differential Calculus in multiple Variables
Calc IV: Integral Calculus in multiple Variables.

RE

Ah, we just had "multivariable calculus", and it wasn't broken up into two semesters. Then two semesters of analysis (I think). And then complex analysis, or that was the second semester of analysis. Too long ago to remember. Math majors took linear algebra and STEM people would take matrix algebra I think. Not sure why you'd take both. Abstract algebra was the most interesting. Seems like something that should be taught earlier. People get stuck on this idea that "math has rules". And, no, math has rule sets. We spend too much time making people think math is about solving equations, when inequalities are perhaps more often used if we're talking about equations, and we ignore the whole abstraction of properties, structure, and operands, which abstract algebra is about. Abstract algebra should create a "liberating" feeling in some people, if they can appreciate the abstraction.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline RE

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2017, 09:57:35 AM »
Math majors took linear algebra and STEM people would take matrix algebra I think. Not sure why you'd take both.

Because at the time I was fascinated with the topics and I could fit it into my schedule.

RE
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Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2017, 12:54:30 PM »
Most of the thinking process is the fate of the human species. Each of us have our own set of conditioning, genetic, environment, and for me astrological. Our brains are conditioned to fire in an almost a predictable way, and for each one us it is always is a different complex of neuron connections. You seem to be able to make millions of varying connections, and thereby have such a rich and complex thinking process and use the best language you can to describe it to others. Doesn't it make sense to you to still/ and get free of that mental "matrix" without the use of alcohol or pot. :)  Why don't you try what worked for me? It does take discipline to sit for 25 minutes a day and stare at a spot on the wall, but this method has worked for many people who have come here and all over the world, and they have reached a state of mind that is no longer bothering them. Oh and yes, many people reach this state of mind without any knowledge of the Buddhist method. In all religions , many people reach a state of mind that John Lennon wrote about "All we need is love." That just doesn't cut it for me. Most of the time I don't feel very "loving"! I want those people to just leave me alone. Also, I am in an environment that is specifically designed so that I do not have to interact with other people in a social way, so I can devote my time to taking care of my own mind/body complex. It becomes doubly complex when interacting with others who have completely different views of the world...and I don't think at this point in my life I could do it. I would rather just off myself than go back into the "world" and deal with that. I have stopped trying to figure out the universe and the psychological complexities that plague most all of mankind.
  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

There are many ways to approach the alcohol and pot issue. First I'll say that I can't speak on behalf of alcohol because I can't keep from abusing it, while others can, or they can and they can still do art like Hemingway or otherwise function. I'm speaking of pot, but I'm sure this applies to other substances. And I'm sure if we didn't have what I'm going to argue is actually a catastrophically irrational taboo, human collective intelligence would skyrocket because we'd have numerous perceptual feedbacks that would not only give us the most important feedback possible when we talk about the effects of something - the effects on consciousness - we'd have paradigms of scientific research into this. We could even have proof of my intelligence argument, but first I'll give an intuitive one:

When you are on pot you have access to quite a few different subjective state spaces, and by those I just mean the totality of subjective experience as it's experienced in the ways we can break it down, such in terms of the visual field, audio field, proprioceptive use of the mind, and so on. This creates a different perception of any given idea. For example, having your favorite food is going to be a different experience sitting at a table than standing in front of a mountain, or a live volcano. And it's going to be different in a lot of ways - the mountain is going to create a different subjective state within you. How? The answer is actually drugs, but just drugs that are produced in the mind.

And in the context of the mountain, which creates a different subjective state, your thinking is different because the immensity and beauty of the object, not to mention the potentially relatively clean air full of natural scents. And in the context of this thinking, which in some people will include existential and other reflective considerations, you'll consider you favorite food. And you might come to more deeply appreciate some aspects of it, and you may take these realizations "back" with you. You take not just memories home in the abstract, but changes in perception rooted in the subjective change in which information was considered. I like to imagine "subjectively bathing" information. Perhaps something having to do with "emotional memory" facilitates how information can change you in different ways - the difference between seeing the sun in powerful telescope and seeing a picture in an encyclopedia.

Pot just lets you see some things in a powerful telescope, which is just an analogy for the utter qualitative change in 
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2017, 12:55:00 PM »
Quote
I think you drink and and smoke to stop grasping and clinging to the illusions of your thoughts.

Yes. It's why I always refer to "The Matrix" and wanting to escape. I don't believe we can in a sense and that would take an essay to explain, but my intuition has differences from Buddhist belief, which is what I'd want to discuss. I think the person I agreed with the most that I ever listen to was Jiddu Krishnimurti, who was "nothing" as far as I know. I'd love to hear his thoughts in the context of modern understandings* (asterisked words would take a lot of discussion to make clear). Or perhaps Mr. Rogers on any matters not pertaining to God, since he was I minister as far as I know. I also use this sense to argue for children's rights in various contexts - like exposure to advertising. That's "neurological programming" from my perspective, which creates The Matrix (just going to use the pop-metaphor for convenience).

I also don't like modern psychological language. I can take several perspectives on why, but my habit is to take a mechanistic one because I'm interested in the existential risk consequences of being perfectly deterministic. Quickly note that the other options are "Nothing is deterministic", which I can't see as being anything put perfect chaos. Or there is order without determinism, but order implies rules, which means future states are determined*, which is a contradiction. There could also be "order sometimes" or "contradictions are possible", but then we can't prove anything at all. Also, if there's order, we apparently can't prove it, but I'll get to that later.

Quote
For me I suddenly awoke one day that everything I took for granted, seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching, and mind generated logic/intuition was ALL being created in my own mind.

I'm constantly playing with this, and the strange states of mind I'm able to achieve can "feedback" into my conceptual understanding, making me more subjectively confident in issues I'm thinking about. For example, when I switch to the "it's all in the head perspective" I can experience several things, from a "stuffiness coming from a sense of emptiness behind everything", or a sort of "flatness" of existence with awareness sandwiched between a forever-unseeable void and a supposed external world. It reveals the "two dimensional" creatures we are, for we can see neither into the generating void*, nor into the supposed external reality, which is an aspect of the generating void. The Buddhist perspective seems different on those matters, but it would be existentially irresponsible* to rule out these models. I'm not sure if Buddhists care* if we live or die. If dying weren't painful, would the Buddhist slide into death? I've become so curious about death that I'm actually excited by mine, as long as I get to go my chosen, peaceful way. Just a final ritual.

I also find being "all in my head" can create an eerie sensation that what's outside of us is truly dark, and right now that darkness is unraveling as the state of the planet shows. So I imagine human beings content with the illusions of the mind while this vast darkness of the planet is unraveling around them at an accelerating rate. When I say people "don't have clue", I'm often referring to the fact they can't see that they're just all in their head, and that they're not seeing the real world, at all - because we no idea what it actually looks like. We have models of patterns in out heads that are supposed to correlate with a few aspects of it. That's it. 

Is to exist to have a desire, or can it be merely to avoid pain and in the meantime leave the Matrix? I'm not sure what other states people can achieve in their minds, Buddhist or otherwise, but do they ever trust that others are achieving conscious states such as theirs? Because this trust could only manifest in a perception of order, and order would seem to be both conceptual and deterministic. In fact, the concept of Buddhism itself can only exist conceptually, and would seem only only exist as a system of teachings because of conceptual thought. This implies also an inescapable desire or two. The fact that Buddhism holds together is because of rules, and the rules that hold Buddhism together wouldn't, to my intuition, "stop" at manifesting the structure that is Buddhism, and for Buddhism to propose that the structure stops there could only come from an understanding generated as part of the structure that Buddhism depends upon. It it would seem strange, in other words, if Buddhism were "everything at all or possible".

But Kurt Godel said this would be impossible - to have such knowledge. It would seem that the order required for Buddhism to exist, whether Buddhism recognizes or not, is sufficient to manifest for the incompleteness theorems to apply. Buddhists can't even know if the Universe is inherently contradictory, and the only way to "know" this, is to use logic that you can't prove the consistency of. So, what, then, is the "everything" being generated by the mind? I see the mind as a phenomenon, rather than all phenomenon being mind created, because that it "mind-centric". It treats humans like omnipresent Gods. How does the phenomenon that is consciousness "know" that nothing else is "out there"? What if LSD to us is like an aspirin to a more intelligent alien species. What if we, as entities, haven't even scratched the surface of subjective existence? 


I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2017, 12:55:08 PM »
This reply will be lengthy and, again, I have no expectation of time from you, but I at least will get a lot of thinking organized in putting together a reply. First, on thing out of order:

Quote
I think you drink and and smoke to stop grasping and clinging to the illusions of your thoughts.

Yes. It's why I always refer to "The Matrix" and wanting to escape. I don't believe we can in a sense and that would take an essay to explain, but = my sense has differences from Buddhist belief, which is what I'd want to discuss. I think the person I agreed with the most that I ever listen to was Jiddu Krishnimurti. I'd love to hear his thoughts in the context of modern understandings* (asterisked words discussed at end). Or perhaps Mr. Rogers on any matters not pertaining to God, since he was I minister as far as I know. I also use this sense to argue for children's rights in various contexts - like exposure to advertising. That's "neurological programming" from my perspective, which creates The Matrix (just going to use the pop-metaphor for convenience).

I also don't like modern psychological language. I can take several perspectives on why, but my habit is to take a mechanistic one because I'm interested in the existential risk consequences of being perfectly deterministic. Quickly note that the other options are "Nothing is determinisitic", which I can't see as being anything put perfect chaos. Otherwise there is order without determinism, which means there are rules, which means future states can be determined*.

[quotes]
For me I suddenly awoke one day that everything I took for granted, seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching, and mind generated logic/intuition was ALL being created in my own mind.
[/quotes]

I'm constantly playing with this, and I find the strange states of mind I'm able to achieve "feedback" into my conceptual understanding, making me more confident in the issues I'm thinking about. It the differences between talking about the mechanics of the sun and seeing one. For example, when I switch to the "it's all in the head perspective" I can experience several things, from a "stuffiness as a sense of the emptiness behind everything becomes apparent", but then you can release that a feel a sort of "flatness" of existence as there's just awareness itself sandwiched between a forever-unseeable void and a supposed external world that only creates the illusion of breaking the "two dimensional" creatures that we are, for we can see neither into the generating void*, nor into* the supposed external reality, which is an aspect of the generating void. The Buddhist perspective is different on those matters, but it would be existentially irresponsible* to rule out these models. I'm not sure of Buddhists care* if we live or die. If dying weren't painful, would the Buddhist slide into death? I've become so curious about death that I'm actually excited by mine, as long as I get to go my chosen, peaceful way. Just a final ritual.

Is to exist to have a desire, or can it be merely to avoid pain and in the meantime leave the Matrix? I'm not sure what other states people can achieve in their minds, Buddhist or otherwise, but do they ever trust that others are achieving conscious states such as theirs? Because this trust could only manifest in a perception of order, and order would seem to be both conceptual and deterministic. In fact, the concept of Buddhism itself can only exist conceptually, and would seem only only exist as a system of teachings because of conceptual thought. This implies also an inescapable desire or two.

Buddhist claim to know that all phenomena is mind created. But they acknowledge or coorporeal

Talking about this stuff at all is a         I think that, since no one, not even our collective intelligence as embodied in all minds and machines (or just machines from my perspective)

I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #112 on: August 03, 2017, 01:24:58 PM »
The pharmaceutical path to enlightenment, just goes to show they do have a pill for everything.  One of the most enlightening moments of my life happened on an acid trip.  The LSD had kicked in good and hard.  A  blank wall was making a great light show when the revelation shook my bones.

The revelation was that drugs are not a pathway to enlightenment.  The source of all enlightenment must come from outside in the real world and can't come from inside where perceptual experience is a product of the mind itself.  Not having had any cannabis for literally hours today, I can also say I am just as creative without it.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:27:47 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #113 on: August 03, 2017, 01:33:15 PM »


Throw me in the shallow water before I get too deep.

I used to refer to that "fractal food", but I forgot what it was called. Looks like part of that "mustard family" or whatever it is that cauliflower, broccoli and other vegetables are selected from.

I am growing some it now.  My results are not so impressive.  It has a nutty taste and is a bit firmer than regular broccoli or cauliflower.  When you see pictures of this stuff the pics were made close up and give the impression that these fractal flowers are bigger than the actually are.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #114 on: August 03, 2017, 04:12:57 PM »
The pharmaceutical path to enlightenment, just goes to show they do have a pill for everything.  One of the most enlightening moments of my life happened on an acid trip.  The LSD had kicked in good and hard.  A  blank wall was making a great light show when the revelation shook my bones.

The revelation was that drugs are not a pathway to enlightenment.  The source of all enlightenment must come from outside in the real world and can't come from inside where perceptual experience is a product of the mind itself.  Not having had any cannabis for literally hours today, I can also say I am just as creative without it.

 :emthup: :emthup:
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Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #115 on: August 03, 2017, 04:55:37 PM »
The pharmaceutical path to enlightenment, just goes to show they do have a pill for everything.  One of the most enlightening moments of my life happened on an acid trip.  The LSD had kicked in good and hard.  A  blank wall was making a great light show when the revelation shook my bones.

The revelation was that drugs are not a pathway to enlightenment.  The source of all enlightenment must come from outside in the real world and can't come from inside where perceptual experience is a product of the mind itself.  Not having had any cannabis for literally hours today, I can also say I am just as creative without it.

 :emthup: :emthup:

There is a subjective state space as part of the Universe itself, and the "sober" mind (which doesn't even make sense) traverses a small subset of this. "Enlightened" people don't have an answer to the hard problem of consciousness, but they probably have a made up answer.

Why is there all this misunderstanding surrounding drugs when they allow us to observe the modular and dynamic aspects of the subjective state space? And how can one be enlightened if one has no theory of what the entirety of this space entails? I claim that the Universe can only become more and more awake, since consciousness is a manifestation of the Universe, but evolution is quite limited in the range of subjective state space it can reach, even with drugs. Technology to manipulate the mind and evolve it directly is certainly required. This follows from the consequences of what we can observe - including more limited states of consciousness in other human beings, ourselves (drunk, doped, etc.), and other animals.

I haven't had my "trips" yet, but I just want the fucking information about how consciousness can change ... so I can work on the problem of consciousness like other people who care about actually solving the problem, and not substituting random narrative for it - and that's random in particulars since narrative is a necessary mode of communication given our dependency on metaphor (which is rooted in our sensory limitations).

If people could understand drugs as a consciousness tool to use responsibly, then our collective intelligence would increase. This society allows me to have a motorcycle and I don't give a fuck if I die. But I can't have shrooms so I can expand the subjective state space I have access to think about? This species wants to be stupid given copious observation.

I suspect this is all rooted in fundamental human insecurity. It's like the chastity belt. And maybe what you get out of drug trips is proportional to what you're able to put into them. I still have fantastic perspective visualizations that I can't have while sober on cannabis. These visualizations are therapeutic because they help me leave The Matrix while sober. I can say with certainty that no mainstream religion on Earth is even close to seeing what's really going on.

I can go into meditative spaces - not sure what to call them since I don't practice anything. I don't feel like human enlightenment makes any sense. You can play with various consciousness modes. This says nothing in itself, and it's better to bring back "objective" information than to base religion on it. I don't know if I meditate like other people. Other times I "look" at reality to look for questions, or get answers to questions.

This is hard to describe, but you imagine going through what the network of civilization "must be like". You can take any aspect of civilization, and imagine how consequences propagate. Take the toothbrush. I just grabbed this randomly. What are the consequences?

It's become an expectation. That means it takes a predictable number of man hours - so you can think about this time sink on a global scale, though many things are certainly realized standing in front of a mirror (not all do this to brush teeth). The routine keeps people aware of dental hygiene generally, so perhaps this contributes to more dental visits. But maybe a lot more hospital visits and bills because brushing facilitates the consumption of teeth-destroying food. And so on. 

This is a trivial and superficial example (and boring/obvious) chosen for simplicity, but I like to do this type of thinking about human neurological evolution in general (and how it's bottlenecked by the ostensibly "rich" and "powerful").

The point is that you can "see The Matrix" this way. You can be a pretty effective armchair sociologist doing this, especially when backed  up with good science.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #116 on: August 03, 2017, 05:54:37 PM »
I dispute that you reach a state space with cannabis that you can't experience without it.  The effects of cannabis make you feel different but that should not be confused with uniqueness.  If I am wrong than my confusion results from me being permanently 'baked' by decades of heavy use.  In other words perhaps I am so high all the time I can no longer relate to an uneventful dull pedestrian mind that only experiences reality as a result of billions of years of honed sensory evolution.

Some intellectuals praise drug use because it shocks people and gains converts.  Then young folk adopt them as gurus because they want an excuse to get high.  Such intellectuals are simply lazy and we all like cheap thrills.  This same story plays out with every new generation and has been told for decades.

Having met Timothy Leary I can say that he was just a man and no different from you and I.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #117 on: August 03, 2017, 06:27:54 PM »
I think most drugs interfere with achieving a meditative state. I haven't tried every drug, but I've tried a great number, especially drugs that were touted as "mind expanding".

Hallucinogens simply put one into a waking dream state in which the barriers between the conscious mind and the subconscious mind are chemically removed.  There is an interesting state that one goes through sometimes when coming down, like the next day...you might be wittier than normal, say things that sound more profound than your usual mundane conversations . You might be funnier. You might feel unusually focused.

My great revelation on acid was that I couldn't reach some imagined special astral plane....that hallucinations are an interesting form of mental masturbation that can be loads of fun...or they can make you profoundly depressed if you're a teenager looking in the mirror at your zits and flaws.

I recommend the Quantum Light Breath for a meditation aid. Don't sample it. Commit to 90 minutes and just breath and listen and follow the instructions. Don't do it drunk or high.

I sometimes fall asleep during this if I'm physically tired. I don't think it matters.

http://scripting.com/jeru/quantumLightBreath.mp3


What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #118 on: August 03, 2017, 08:04:51 PM »
I think most drugs interfere with achieving a meditative state. I haven't tried every drug, but I've tried a great number, especially drugs that were touted as "mind expanding".

My great revelation on acid was that I couldn't reach some imagined special astral plane....that hallucinations are an interesting form of mental masturbation that can be loads of fun...


Exactly right.  Perhaps we had some of the same batch.  Some of mine originated in SF and was distributed by the brotherhood.


People have religious experiences without drugs but one that starts off that party is Salvia  Divinorum. 


It is not popular because it is not a party drug.  It is concentrated and comes in different strengthens.  I tried and still have some 40x leaves.  Some seriously strong shit.  You need to have a well trusted 'spotter' if you do it because you could pass out or do something stupid and hurt yourself.  I didn't have one but to do it again I want to have one.  Someone you can trust with your life.  That logistical problem and lack of interest means I'll probably not do it again.  The first thing that happened when I did do it before experiencing an overwhelming spiritual connection with the universe was I looked at my hand and saw it had turned to dark green lizard skin.  Then outside I saw trees moving as if in a heavy wind, all directions at once but the day was calm without any wind at all.  When I recall the experience I always flash to the movie Interview with the Vampire.  In that move when Tom Cruise first becomes a vampire there are some cool special effects.  With Salvia you make your own just as cool.

Every insect flying outside for hundreds of feet I could feel.  Clouds of them.  Happy sparks of life reveling in brief but intense and satisfying existence.  We are all connected to another dimension from which life flows into this one in which we live and die.  We are all individual expressions of a common collective and from and then back to a common source we flow.  Like raindrops falling in the sky we live in an all too brief fall to destiny.

And you can quote me on that.

A powerful experience but except for the hallucinations I still contend it is not an experience that only comes with drugs.  Walking around the desert for forty days eating only grasshoppers is also supposed to work.  In that circumstance the sparks of life through their trans-dimensional existence understand being eaten through their other side consciousness since we are all one.  An all grasshopper diet then is a non-issue.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:10:02 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #119 on: August 03, 2017, 08:20:31 PM »
The Buddha's last words as recorded in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta of the Pali Sutta-pitaka (Digha Nikaya 16) were, "Handa dani bhikkhave amantayami vo: Vayadhamma sankhara appamadena sampadetha."  A translation: "Monks, this is my last advice to you. All conditioned things in the world will decay. Work hard to gain your own salvation."

https://www.thoughtco.com/samskara-or-sankhara-450194
HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING! Our communities blog is at https://openmind693.wordpress.com

 

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