AuthorTopic: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation  (Read 8956 times)

Offline Surly1

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 06:17:14 PM »

I find mythology a very entertaining and informative way to understand the undertones of these associations.  It's all there, in all of the worlds myths, if you have the ability to read for comprehension  ;D

Joseph Campbell. Jung.

I did some Jungian psychotherapy in my 50s, and it was some of the most rewarding work in my life. I recall a quote, I thought it was Jung, but I couldn't find it, that went, "the gods came down from olympus and took up residence in the human heart."

I read a number of books by James Hollis that were transformative, including "From Misery to Meaning in Midlife," and "Tracking the Gods," of relevance here.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 06:45:32 PM »

  There is an phrase that describes most peoples mind activity..."Monkey mind." The monkey has the habit of jumping from branch to branch to branch, and can not stop. Some people believe that they are jumping to the branches that fit there way of thinking, but all I think they are doing is keeping there ego intact. Ego loss is very frightening to most humans, because their make believe world seems so real to them. They continue along the the pathways that reinforce their delusion ( even when they think it is working fine, and they can get on in the world without to much hassle.) That does not cut it for me either. The shell they live in is comfortable for them, or at least manageable. I prefer to live without the need for a ego that protects me, and thereby leaves most all my senses raw, including that which we commonly call mind. That is why I live in retreat. It really is a mess when I have to explain that I am not interested in their personal point of view or their precious take on the billions of subjects that people think they have to deal with. I have no anger, or disgust at their point of view, but I refuse to get entangled in it.

I've always liked the analogy of the "monkey mind."  I think it explains the ego perfectly.  A book that really helped me understand the ego is Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now."  I think I was 21 when I first ran into that book (before Opra got ahold of it)   ::)

I was driving from California to Washington to turn myself in after being UA and missing ships movement.  I was at day 28 I believe.  Anyways, I pulled over somewhere in Oregon and had a peak experience meditating on insights about the ego that were gained from reading that book.  It was a sort of enlightenment, Samadhi perhaps.  Everything dropped away and I just was without monkey mind.  It was bliss. 

With respect to the second statement of yours that I bolded.  I don't understand a few things about what you have stated.  Your ego is what typed the above message.  It's interacting with us on this platform that is the Diner.  Even Buddha had an ego.  How else could he have communicated with his disciples?  Without ego one must be completely isolated from other people...like in a mountain cave.  I suppose a Buddhist monastery could fit the bill.  However, with the internet we can interact with people without being in their presence.  This is a slippery slope where ego is concerned.  In many important ways this interaction is no different then in person interaction.  Granted, it's devoid of all the unspoken, body language, energy type communications, but nevertheless it's still interaction with other egos.  In order to do that you have to use your ego, and to a certain extent you are therefore entangling your ego with others. 

So why do you interact on the Diner Knarf?  To be clear, I'm glad that you do, it's just that I'm seeing a contradiction here.  I don't want you to go anywhere, but I want to understand your perspective better. 

Also, I'd like to point out how difficult it becomes to persist in those egoless states when you have children.  They are very energetic, and they can suck you down to their emotional states very easily.  They blow a fuse over trifling shit like toys.  Small grievances become emotional emergencies for them.  They get loud, the cry, they scream, they lose their temper, and they are your children.  You have to address them in these states, and it becomes very difficult to stay on an even keel.  Concentrating on anything can be almost impossible with kids around, even when you get yourself behind a closed door.  Often just typing one message here takes me several different attempt due to interruptions.  I call parenting "the state of perpetual interruption." 

I completely understand why Siddharth Gautama left his wife and child.  Of course, he was a prince, and he left them in a state where their physical needs were going to be met due to their nobility.  I'm just saying that I understand the need.  There is a Hindu story about a guy who went out into the jungle and ran into a guru.  The guru sent him to get water.  While he was getting water he saw a beautiful women, and he married here and they had children.  Years go by and this man finds himself in the presence of this guru once again.  The guru asks him what took him so long to get the water.  I'm not doing this story any justice.  Perhaps you've heard it and can tell it better.  The point, for me at least, is that taking on the responsibility of raising children has priority over spiritual disciplines.  You can have spiritual practices, and in ways I suppose children can help you by challenging you with completing those disciplines. 

Either way, I made the decision to get married and then I made the decision to have children.  I went for the water and got distracted by beauty  :laugh:  Our actions have consequences.   

I thought someone would doubt that statement, and I am glad to answer. The ego is the shell we have made up to protect and verify our point of view. I went through 8 years of training to be able to act and respond to this world without having that shell. Unless you have done this, there is NO WAY you or anyone can understand. I don't think about what I am typing, it is all coming from a thoughtless mind. I don't juggle concepts, or try to prove "my" point of view. (ego)
  It is like a when a pickpocket walks down the street all he sees is pockets. In a similar way ,because you have to maintain an ego to survive out there you believe that is what I am doing when I post the news or comment on something. You have got to go through a fairly long process with a trained teacher of ego loss for many years to do what I am doing. There is no other way, because it is so easy to revert to the habits that are grooved in the mind to make you a "person" in the world. I am not in the world and have no need to have that protection or any personality. When ever I slipped back into that precious illusion of ego, I would be questioned about what the hell I thought I was doing....for years. You make an assumption thinking and projecting your state of mind onto me. That is just the normal way people who live in the world do their communicating. It is really cool that you had an experience of ego loss, and I understand why you have to maintain one while interacting with countless other people who only know there mental constructs as guides. Maybe when your finished raising your children you could leave the world, enter a monastery and be done with juggling concepts to make your life work. But until then it is almost impossible to get on in the world without a sense of self. I won't accept your statement that I respond on the dinner with an ego, because I know I don't. Doing this for thirty years and doing it while I was in the Bodhisattva vow ( about 15 years), I have no ax to grind, and I am just acting spontaneously. I have an open mind, so I hear what is going on in the world, so when something seems poignant enough I post it as news.

I'm not sure what you mean by having no ego means you don't respond to dinner. There is just modular subjective experience and we exercise various faculty in invoking and responding to them. There is a huge range of experiences possible here with faculties of the mind at different "volumes" and in response to possible drugs. It seems that some systems such as Buddhism's various forms are striking or useful enough to maintain systems of teaching able to guide their development and maintenance. Then again, such systems have a head start on other systems when people are seeking to leave such a sick civilization as ours. Are we cutting off our exploration of the solution space of existence?

I think the concept of the self is ridiculous. I see myself as modular - like I'm always in a "meta-cognitive state" where the attentional mechanism is watching/experiencing my body's responses to actions rather than "being caught up in them". I'm not perfect. I still lose myself. But I can switch back pretty easy. The Matrix illusion has been, if not obliterated, severely cracked.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:47:03 PM by DoctorWhom »
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

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Offline knarf

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 07:25:07 PM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.
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Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 08:34:48 PM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.

Don't forget that your entropy contributes to the sinking of the Universe itself. But not many of us can step up and face reality. Or the Abyss as I like to refer to it.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Online RE

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 08:58:02 PM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.

All ships sink in due time.  At the moment though, the Diner stll Floats.

Really Knarf, that was pretty mild criticism by LD.  You need to develop a thicker skin.

Enjoy the Walkabout.  I hope as always you return, while the Diner still floats.

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2017, 10:23:13 PM »
The monkey mind does not thrive in the diner when diners discuss.  The only way a monkey mind does well here is when a monkey mind is furiously posting articles we can't possibly keep up with.  Information overload, but nobody is perfect and that is a problem not restricted to the Diner.  Here rather the longevity of the printed word keeps the monkey mind at bay and threads which add new content like diarrhea into a ceramic throne can be ignored.  We have accountability here.

I read David McRaney's book 'You Are Not So Smart' last week.  He never uses the phrase 'monkey mind' but describes our emotion driven primitive brain very well and explains that our cerebral cortex, a recent addition where reason resides, is far from being in charge of our awareness, or of our decisions.  The ability to reason is new in the scheme of things and far from well developed or dominant.  A primitive unconscious and thus more efficient monkey mind fueled by emotion and desire is in charge.  We farm out conscious activity (such as driving a car or choosing a president) to our unconscious monkey mind as soon as we can so we can focus our energy intensive conscious awareness on other things.  Fantastical and whimsical things if our environment does not stimulate enough.  Like monster trucks in mud we will spin our wheels.

The monkey mind is not an enemy to be fought and tamed.  The monkey mind  kept us from being lunch for millions of years.  It is a friend who must be understood and appreciated.  It is you.  If it is understood a relationship with it can be managed so it can make more appropriate decisions.  This would be a good thing to do because the monkey mind is in charge which is actually good.  Reason by itself, it turns out can't make decisions.  Left to it's own devices reason will contemplate forever and never arrive at a destination.  Studies of people with brain damage which has dulled or eliminated their emotions have revealed this.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:26:00 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2017, 10:52:39 PM »
If the 'monkey mind' is a bhuddist term and  NOT used in the book, dont ascribe the books message to the term.    Monkey Mind is an analogy to the behavior, not the thinking of the monkey. Knarf described the monkey jumping from branch to branch being like your mind. As long as you are awake you are thinking, and the constant changing words and pictures in your mind as well as sensory input is like the monkeys actions. If you have never meditated and made progress in stilling the mind, you have never experienced anything except monkey mind.

The lack of constant thinking, absent in animals because they (mostly) do not have the cortex capable of it, gives rise to the direct perception knarf spoke of through disciplining the mind through meditation. If animals did have monkey mind you would not find the same ones always present when you are there unarmed are all on the hop when you go out with a gun, even though it is unlikely they have seen one before.





« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 11:16:40 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2017, 11:04:16 PM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.

All ships sink in due time.  At the moment though, the Diner stll Floats.

Really Knarf, that was pretty mild criticism by LD.  You need to develop a thicker skin.

Enjoy the Walkabout.  I hope as always you return, while the Diner still floats.

RE

Unless Drwhom is correct that getting high produces an otherwise unattainable insight im not accessing, i think its more that knarf is simply too polite to ignore other responses ignoring his wishes, so removed himself being in the position.
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2017, 12:16:26 AM »
Here is a perfect example of the monkey mind not getting that it can or should stand down.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1245-be-still-and-know-that-i-am-god
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 04:53:52 AM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.

I thought the Diner was toast a couple of weeks back, when Eddie said he was throwing in the towel.  Then Surly came back, Azozeo came back, and even UB came back.  We all come back when we leave.  The Diner just has an overwhelming pull, at least it does for me.  Why?  I think in my case a lot of the reason is force of habit.  It's part of my morning routine, and it's become part of my home from work routine as well.  I keep up with the news here as well. 

However I think the biggest reason are the intellectuals that populate this place.  Idiots have no desire to contemplate the collapse of our civilization.  It takes intellectual courage to even entertain the idea.  I'm not sucking up to RE or attempting to inflate his ego here.  It's already bigger then the known universe.  I'm grateful that he started this site and continues paying the bills and doing the behind the scenes work that is necessary.  He is a big part of the Diner, no doubt, but an even bigger part of it are the regulars that frequent it. 

I'm also a writer, but mostly that has been in the form of journaling and non-fiction essays...or blogging.  This is an outlet for all of that.  I still have a current journal, but I rarely write in it.  I used to write in my journal daily, in my teens and 20's and into my early thirties.  I used to blog frequently as well, and I rarely do that any longer.  The Diner has become the place where I do my daily writing.  It's more satisfying to my ego to know that my words will be read.  Most times they are not replied to, and that is fine because I know they are read.  There is something satisfying to me about that.  I think every writer wants his work to be read by other people.  I just don't have the desire to write to myself in a journal any longer.  Maybe it's because I have done most of the exploration for world view that I will do?  I keep an open mind, but I'm 37.  I've read shit ton of books on philosophy, psychology, spirituality, religion, mythology, history, collapse, social criticism...I did not arrive at my opinion of reality via the path of least resistance. 

I had a few beers last night, and a couple glasses of red.  I knew when I was typing my last message that it was a bit brutal.  The thought occurred to me that it would result in Knarf bailing on us.  I posted it anyways.  Like RE said, it was pretty mild criticism, but it's also keeping the place honest.  I hate that Knarf is bailing, and I hope that he changes his mind.  However I found his assertion of egoless communicating to be a bit absurd.  It is not possible to communicate without ego.  I suppose you could, but it would be nothing more then reporting on what your senses were receiving.  "I see a table, I hear a bird, I smell a big shit," and the like.  You would only be able to report objective facts about your perception.  As soon as you say anything remotely close to "I think," you are engaged with your ego. 

Knarf stated that he did not want to get entangled with the views of others.  I can respect that, but then why comment at all on the Diner?  Seems sort of masochistic...or even hypocritical to my view.  There is most certainly a conflict of interest to comment on the Diner and not want to get entangled with the opinions of others.  I also fail to see how you can do that without the use of ego.  I'm willing to keep an open mind about the assertion.  However, my words clearly upset Knarf, or he just saw that my point was right.  If he got upset then it just proves my point.  If he left because of the obvious conflict of interest between an egoless state and commenting on the Diner then he also proved my point correct. 

Also, how could an egoless person post up collapse related news articles on a daily basis? 

I'd like him to stay.  I'd like him to argue his point.  In the end, the Diner is really not a place for a Buddhist monk.  I'd be doing the Diner a disservice to give him a pass simply because he's a Buddhist monk.  At least...he claims to be...I'm pretty sure monks do not masturbate after all.   ;D  Chakra or no chakra.  But what do I know...I'm not a monk.  My knowledge on Buddhism is due to something like 30 books, and around 5 years of considering myself a practicing Buddhist. 

If you are still around, Knarf, I do apologize that it's me that brought you to this point.  I'll miss you, and please come back...but I'm not going to give you any special treatment.  In fact, the fact that you are a monk only makes me want to challenge you on spiritual topics even more. 

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 04:55:38 AM by luciddreams »

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 07:45:49 AM »
The monkey mind does not thrive in the diner when diners discuss.  The only way a monkey mind does well here is when a monkey mind is furiously posting articles we can't possibly keep up with.  Information overload, but nobody is perfect and that is a problem not restricted to the Diner.  Here rather the longevity of the printed word keeps the monkey mind at bay and threads which add new content like diarrhea into a ceramic throne can be ignored.  We have accountability here.

I read David McRaney's book 'You Are Not So Smart' last week.  He never uses the phrase 'monkey mind' but describes our emotion driven primitive brain very well and explains that our cerebral cortex, a recent addition where reason resides, is far from being in charge of our awareness, or of our decisions.  The ability to reason is new in the scheme of things and far from well developed or dominant.  A primitive unconscious and thus more efficient monkey mind fueled by emotion and desire is in charge.  We farm out conscious activity (such as driving a car or choosing a president) to our unconscious monkey mind as soon as we can so we can focus our energy intensive conscious awareness on other things.  Fantastical and whimsical things if our environment does not stimulate enough.  Like monster trucks in mud we will spin our wheels.

The monkey mind is not an enemy to be fought and tamed.  The monkey mind  kept us from being lunch for millions of years.  It is a friend who must be understood and appreciated.  It is you.  If it is understood a relationship with it can be managed so it can make more appropriate decisions.  This would be a good thing to do because the monkey mind is in charge which is actually good.  Reason by itself, it turns out can't make decisions.  Left to it's own devices reason will contemplate forever and never arrive at a destination.  Studies of people with brain damage which has dulled or eliminated their emotions have revealed this.

The brain is conceptually broken down into three parts. The brain stem is ancient - hundreds of millions of years old and we have newer cognitive architecture built on top of and dependent upon this. I wonder if it's almost impossible for "intelligent" life to evolve beyond a certain point because whatever newer architecture arises will have taken eons to evolve upon the old. The resulting entities should be as self-destructive as us if the pressure for intelligence can also only occur in predator species, which is another reasonable assumption. For example, at a certain level of intelligence, you just have to be good at hiding. Once good at hiding there is no selection pressure to develop further intelligence. If you're trying to find these hiding animals as a predator, then you slay them as they've fallen into a pit of evolutionary mimimum. Though that's technically impossible perhaps.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 07:56:00 AM »
The dinner is a sinking ship, and I am jumping off...good luck.

All ships sink in due time.  At the moment though, the Diner stll Floats.

Really Knarf, that was pretty mild criticism by LD.  You need to develop a thicker skin.

Enjoy the Walkabout.  I hope as always you return, while the Diner still floats.

RE

What's funny is that I was glad LD was pointing out the obvious. It just reads as matters of legitimate discussion, though it's kind of a "gang up" right now, but there are ideas of Knarf's I would defend. The reason I brought up entropy is because it's an "inescapable" responsibility. You can "choose" to get married (except I don't think "you" actually can since "you" don't exist, but I digress), but you can't choose to not bring more disorder into the world by your existence, which can also be seen as being in inherent competition with all other life. We then have to ask why someone seeking awareness or wisdom does not have to account for this.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline Eddie

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 09:59:37 AM »
Busy little thread. No wonder Knarf bailed.

Hard to sit in stillness when one is surrounded by buzzing flies.

You young guys need to examine your reasons for trying to put Knarf on the hot seat. He did his best to give you his truth. Don't try to nitpick and dissect everything he says. Just quit making excuses and try to practice what he's explaining, or don't, your choice.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline DoctorWhom

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 11:03:57 AM »
Busy little thread. No wonder Knarf bailed.

Hard to sit in stillness when one is surrounded by buzzing flies.

You young guys need to examine your reasons for trying to put Knarf on the hot seat. He did his best to give you his truth. Don't try to nitpick and dissect everything he says. Just quit making excuses and try to practice what he's explaining, or don't, your choice.

But this is too simplistic. And he's not sitting in stillness. His body is buzzing with something like 100 trillion bacterial cells, without which he'd be dead. He only exists because he's teeming with microorganisms. This "sitting in stillness" metaphor means something different from the perspective of the bacteria. They can't tell one way or another. The fact is that everything is connected, which is something I thought Buddhists understood. We don't exist in isolation. A Buddhist retreat has consequences on the ecosystem, and knowledge of their existence automatically frames a choice for people looking for answers, and as such there should be an ideological responsibility to account for the bias of being an established ideology. As such, established ideology should be open to continuous challenge. How else can alternative systems of thought arise?

How come people don't practice what I'm explaining? I'm trying to create the awareness we need to have to address the human machine. Mathematics is quickly penetrating biology, and this has consequences for the human control problem, which sounds sinister, but that's what it is.

Interesting, this seems to boil down to the fact that people don't seem to think how their minds work is relevant. Their minds are a "force" in the world, not the result of forces. Such a simple and yet catastrophic error. It would surely be the most striking delusion apparent to a visiting alien species.
I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give.

~ Diogenes

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Requesting Knarf for Evaluation
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 01:39:33 PM »
If the 'monkey mind' is a bhuddist term and  NOT used in the book, dont ascribe the books message to the term.    Monkey Mind is an analogy to the behavior, not the thinking of the monkey. Knarf described the monkey jumping from branch to branch being like your mind. As long as you are awake you are thinking, and the constant changing words and pictures in your mind as well as sensory input is like the monkeys actions. If you have never meditated and made progress in stilling the mind, you have never experienced anything except monkey mind.

The lack of constant thinking, absent in animals because they (mostly) do not have the cortex capable of it, gives rise to the direct perception knarf spoke of through disciplining the mind through meditation. If animals did have monkey mind you would not find the same ones always present when you are there unarmed are all on the hop when you go out with a gun, even though it is unlikely they have seen one before.

I beg to differ.  I know exactly what Knarf means by monkey mind.  A most excellent description is found here.



Which I have loaned out I think or I'd re-read it today.  I have also found some writings by Chögyam Trungpa enlightening so YOUR, not my, ignorance shows UNCLE BOB.  You are nobody to tell me what to write so you may kiss my ass.  Make it the subject of a Kōan.

Test strength in the face of ignorance with it.

What I published is consistent and amplifies the teachings.  So read my book Uncle Bob.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

 

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