Doomstead Diner Menu => Economics => Topic started by: RE on November 28, 2012, 01:26:27 AM

Title: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on November 28, 2012, 01:26:27 AM
The Student Loan issue has been covered in many different threads here over the last year, and it is about time to create a Central Location for the articles and information which cover this BALLOONING issue.

Based on charts published on Zero Hedge, it appears this problem is now going Ballistic.

Legally speaking, Federally Insured Student Loans CANNOT be dischared in Bankruptcy.  Does that mean though they will ever be paid off by the borrowers?  Any clue here in the commentariat WHY said loans were constructed not to be washed in BK Court?  I can tell you why, but I am curious to see if anyone else knows the real reason.

Anyhow, the charts are clear here, this one is collapsing.

RE

The Scariest Chart Of The Quarter: Student Debt Bubble Officially Pops As 90+ Day Delinquency Rate Goes Parabolic (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/scariest-chart-quarter-student-debt-bubble-officially-pops-90-day-delinquency-rate-g)
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/27/2012 16:10 -0500

Consumer CreditdefaultStudent Loans

We have already discussed the student loan bubble, and its popping previously, most extensively in this article. Today, we get the Q3 consumer credit breakdown update courtesy of the NY Fed's quarterly credit breakdown. And it is quite ghastly. As of September 30, Federal (not total, just Federal) rose to a gargantuan $956 billion, an increase of $42 billion in the quarter - the biggest quarterly update since 2006.

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Student%20Loans%20Q3.jpg)

But this is no surprise to anyone who read our latest piece on the topic. What also shouldn't be a surprise, at least to our readers who read about it here first, but what will stun the general public are the two charts below, the first of which shows the amount of 90+ day student loan delinquencies, and the second shows the amount of newly delinquent 30+ day student loan balances. The charts speak for themselves.

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Student%20Loan%20Delinquencies.jpg)http://(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Student%20Loan%20Delinquencies%20Total%20Amount.jpg)

This is how the Fed described this "anomaly":

Outstanding student loan debt now stands at $956 billion, an increase of $42 billion since last quarter.  However, of the $42 billion, $23 billion is new debt while the remaining $19 billion is attributed to previously defaulted student loans that have been updated on credit reports this quarter. As a result, the percent of student loan balances 90+ days delinquent increased to 11 percent this quarter.

oh and this from footnote 2:


As explained in a Liberty Street Economics blog post, these delinquency rates for student loans are likely to understate actual delinquency rates because almost half of these loans are currently in deferment, in grace periods or in forbearance and therefore temporarily not in the repayment cycle. This implies that among loans in the repayment cycle delinquency rates are roughly twice as high.

We'll let readers calculate on their own what a surge in 90+ day delinquency from 9% to 11% (or as footnote 2 explains: 22%) in one quarter on $1 trillion in student debt means. For those confused, read all about it in this September article: "The Next Subprime Crisis Is Here: Over $120 Billion In Federal Student Loans In Default" which predicted just this.

* * *

And so it's official: Pop goes the student loan bubble, as just confirmed by the Fed.

Luckily student debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy. Oh wait. It isn't.

Source: Quarterly Report on Household Debt and Credit, Household Credit Excel Source

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on November 28, 2012, 11:47:22 AM
Why?

To create a Lifetime Debtor Class.  Not a doubt in my mind.

The mortgage debt wasn't good enough because there was that problem of responsibility for a physical asset, property titles, etc. and people really didn't get into mortgage debt until much later in life.

Having a population of young indebted serfs gives the "goobermint" incredible social engineering leverage.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: monsta666 on November 28, 2012, 01:30:40 PM
I heard that one of the few ways these student loans can be discharged is by joining the army. If true is it a coincidence that this is one of the few avenues left to escape debt servitude?
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Surly1 on November 28, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
Why?

To create a Lifetime Debtor Class.  Not a doubt in my mind.

The mortgage debt wasn't good enough because there was that problem of responsibility for a physical asset, property titles, etc. and people really didn't get into mortgage debt until much later in life.

Having a population of young indebted serfs gives the "goobermint" incredible social engineering leverage.

Widgeon, that answer wins the intertoobz for today.

Absolutely- debt as a control mechanism. Another problem with the mortgage strategem is that not enough people are going to be able to afford houses, so chain 'em up good upon entry into the workforce.

All part of creating Alan Satan Greenspan's "precariat." May he rot in hell.

***
BTW, Earlier today, RE posted a link to the .pdf of the "Report from Iron Mountain." I downloaded it and just skimmed the beginning and the conclusions. I have never seen a conspiracy I didn't like, but this will make you piss your pants.

Must read.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on November 28, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
Why?

To create a Lifetime Debtor Class.  Not a doubt in my mind.

The mortgage debt wasn't good enough because there was that problem of responsibility for a physical asset, property titles, etc. and people really didn't get into mortgage debt until much later in life.

Having a population of young indebted serfs gives the "goobermint" incredible social engineering leverage.

You are on the right trackin terms of the big picture, but that isn't what I was thinking of.  Just the rationale for why this class of loans would get this distinction of being non-dischargeable.

Reason is there is nothing that can be Repoed and sold off in a Bankruptcy.  The Education is inside your head.  If it was dischargeable, the smart poor folks  would go to the best University Money can Buy, and upon graduation before getting a job, immediately declare BK!

Anyhow, as the above Hockey Stick graphs show, this is what students are doing now regardless of the fact the BK can't be discharged.  Who really cares if your credit rating is trashed and you can't get a mortgage?  If you are making minimum wage, they can't garnisheer your wages at poverty level.

Eventually, all this shit will be written off.  Irredeemable Debt.  That which cannot be paid will not be.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on November 28, 2012, 05:52:26 PM
Quote
Eventually, all this shit will be written off.  Irredeemable Debt.  That which cannot be paid will not be.

RE

A debt will always be paid, either by the lender or borrower.

You are correct that all this shit will be written off, but unfortunately will be paid for by the hapless taxpayer, to keep the bankster scum solvent that lent it.    :'(


Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on November 28, 2012, 06:49:43 PM
I don't think the presence of "security" has anything to do with it ... although I'm sure that is the "reason" a pol or bankster would give.  Credit Cards are unsecured and they are dischargeable.  Student Loans were for decades but no longer.  No, a Special Effort was made that required premediatation and collusion ... now all bearing fruit.  The only explanation that accounts for every observed fact & outcome is a planned lifetime debt contract.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on November 28, 2012, 09:04:58 PM

You are correct that all this shit will be written off, but unfortunately will be paid for by the hapless taxpayer, to keep the bankster scum solvent that lent it.    :'(

No, the taxpayer won't pay it off, because the taxpayer won't have any money to pay it off with.  That is why it is IRREDEEMABLE DEBT.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on November 30, 2012, 03:40:27 AM
Prisons for profit are a way forward for a lot of debt such as this. People get a ruling against them in a court even if the supposed debtor never is summoned to a court in another state. Then thier license is suspended and they can not drive.  A warrant for arrest goes out  and the debtor is locked up, he can not get out until the debt is cleared. These things are progressing steadily, dont worry about that.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: monsta666 on November 30, 2012, 10:46:58 AM
You are on the right trackin terms of the big picture, but that isn't what I was thinking of.  Just the rationale for why this class of loans would get this distinction of being non-dischargeable.

I don't think that can explain why the debts cannot be expunged. There are strong penalties to claiming bankruptcy that can in many cases effect future employment (it seems a good number of jobs in the US make credit checks) so that would provide enough of an incentive to stop people claiming bankruptcy frivolously. Let's not forget many of the graduates are young people with little to no work experience and many of those do not want to reduce their career prospects by committing such actions.

Also there are many loans made that are unsecured yet those loans are removed in the case of bankruptcy. Student debt unlike other nonsecured debts is a special case in this regard. Why does student loans get special status? I mean what is so different about this this than running big credit card bills or other such measures? Moreover not every country places such burdens on students. For example in the UK the university fees have recently trebled to £9,000 ($15,000) a year and seeing as most courses are three years in duration that equates to the average British student being about £50,000 ($75,000) in the red upon graduation. However unlike the US those loans do not have to be repaid immediately. In fact you are only eligible to start paying back on those loans if your income exceeds £15,000/$22,000 per annum so if you remain unemployed or earn less than this wage through underemployment you do not pay back any money. If you cannot pay those loans within 30 years any remaining amount is removed from the record. So you see in this case while the fees can be seen as excessive it is a more forgiving system than the one in the US. Not saying it is all roses, but it is better.

I think the system of student debt in the US has its own dynamics not just on the level of the loans being insecure but also in the attitude the US holds for its graduates. Why have the administrators in this industry got the power to inflict such strict terms on its students and why is student debt such a special case? I think the main reason comes because of the amount of money involved in the industry and since money = power the powers that be can make special cases for their industry as they have given enough money to the right congressmen/senators to push their agenda.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on November 30, 2012, 09:32:02 PM
Quote
Why have the administrators in this industry got the power to inflict such strict terms on its students and why is student debt such a special case? I think the main reason comes because of the amount of money involved in the industry and since money = power the powers that be can make special cases for their industry as they have given enough money to the right congressmen/senators to push their agenda.
True enough Monsta, May I add one you may have overlooked, their young age.

Never let a youngster with forty or fifty good years left to horrorize, intimidate, attach pay checks, charge late fees, double the rate of usury on go free by bankruptcy. If you are to have bankruptcy laws have them apply to folks 65 and over.

You are taking away the prime group of beneficiaries of God's Workers if you let this group of rubes out of the Bankster's clutches, forty or fifty good years left to perform their kind and loving deeds to their slaves in bondage.
Title: Free College Education!
Post by: RE on January 05, 2013, 04:59:31 PM
Now it's getting good.

In order to resolve the BALLOONING problem of Student Debt Default, TPTB are rewriting the laws regarding how Student Loans are to be paid back, and how long it takes to finally get your debt accumulated for learning worthless information wiped off the books.

As the below article from Zero Hedge indicates, there is now absolutely ZERO reason not to take out the biggest loans you possibly can get guaranteed by Da Goobermint to go to school and drink beer and bang coeds for as long as you possibly can.

In one fell swoop this solves the problem of Youth Unemployment and further Money Creation thru irredeemable debt.  Da Goobermint nor Private Industry can figure out how to provide decent jobs for HS Grads, so instead they will now offer further loans you don't have to pay back if you don't get a job upon Graduation, if in fact you actually ever Graduate.

You can go get your BA, your Masters, your Ph.D, your MBA, your JD...that works up to around 16 years in Academia!  Just keep taking out more Loans!  Evenif you only get a job flipping burgers at Mickey Ds at the end of it (all those sheepskins will be REQUIRED for applying for the job), most you gotta pay every month is $100 for 20 years, then you are Free & Clear!

Is this stupid or what?  Of course it is, just provide the damn education for FREE, it would be cheaper that way.  LOL.  It doesn't put more fictitious money on the Bank Balance sheets though if you do it that way.

This is just hilarious.  Sadly, I probably can't get any of these loans and will have to pay for my Nursing Ticket out of Pocket Change, but if you are broke right now and out of a job, APPLY TODAY to the University program of your choice and take out the Loans up the Ying-Yang!

RE

Here Comes The Student Loan Bailout (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-05/here-comes-student-loan-bailout)
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 01/05/2013 14:59 -0500

CounterpartiesMonetizationNew NormalRecessionStudent Loans


2012 is the year the student loan bubble finally popped. While on one hand the relentlessly rising total Federal student debt crossed $956 billion as of September 30, and was growing at a pace that will have put it over $1 trillion by the end of 2012, the one data point confirming the size, severity and ultimately bursting of this latest debt bubble was the disclosure in late November by the Fed that the percentage of 90+ day delinquent loans soared from under 9% to 11% in one quarter.

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Student%20Loans%20Q3.jpg)

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Student%20Loan%20Delinquencies.jpg)

Which is why we were not surprised to learn that the Federal government has now delivered yet another bailout program: this time focusing not on banks, or homeowners who bought McMansions and decided to not pay their mortgage, but on those millions of Americans, aged 18 to 80, that are drowning in student debt - debt, incidentally, which has been used to pay for drugs, motorcycles, games, tattoos, not to mention countless iProducts. Which also means that since there is no free lunch, all that will happen is that even more Federal Debt will be tacked on to replace discharged student debt loans, up to the total $1 trillion which will promptly soar far higher as more Americans take advantage of this latest government handout. But when the US will already have $22 trillion in debt this time in four years, who really is counting? After all, "it is only fair" that the taxpayer funded "free for all" bonanza must go on.

The latest debt bailout, not surprisingly is not titled "Yet another taxpayer funded bailout for those who bought things they can't afford on credit" as that would not be very politically prudent, especially for those politicians who still have taxpaying citizens as their voters. Instead, its name is the much more PC: "Pay as You Earn Repayment Plan." Alas, it really should be called the former, because what it does is it incentivizes Americans to borrow even more Federal student loans, well aware that there will now always be a cap on the associated monthly interest payment which will never leave a mark regardless what the full underlying loan notional is. It also provides for full debt discharge should the borrowers end up with cushy Federal jobs - because the one thing the US government needs afford is more debt-saddled government workers.

What is the "Pay as You Earn Repayment Plan"? The WSJ explains:

A new federal program should make it easier for some recent college graduates to keep their student-loan payments manageable.

The new option, known as the "Pay as You Earn Repayment Plan," lets eligible borrowers sharply lower their monthly loan payments and qualify for loan forgiveness quicker than they might otherwise.

"It's a very good safety net for students who borrow too much," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of the financial-aid site FinAid.org. "If your debt exceeds your annual income, you will probably benefit."

 

Pay as You Earn, which took effect on Dec. 21, "is designed to help offset the effects of the recession for student borrowers most likely to take a hit in this tough job market," says Lauren Asher, president of the Institute for College Access and Success, which has pushed for the creation of income-based repayment plans.

Which in the New Normal, means everyone with a student loan will benefit. It also means, that courtesy of knowing this safety net is there, more and more people will take advantage of the government's latest generosity with other taxpayer's money.

What are the terms of this new bailout?

The new program comes at a time when rising student-loan balances—amid a still shaky job market—have weighed heavily on many families.

 

Typically, federal student loans must be repaid within 10 years. At current interest rates, that can work out to a monthly payment of roughly $300 for a borrower with $26,000 in debt.

 

Pay as You Earn, by contrast, limits student-loan payments to 10% of "discretionary income" as defined by government formulas. Borrowers who make regular payments could have the remaining unpaid amounts forgiven after 20 years.

So much for student debt being non-dischargeable: borrow hundreds of thousands, but make your monthly payment of a hundred or so bucks, and in 20 years you will be debt free, courtesy of US taxpayers. Actually, scratch that: one doesn't even have to make a payment!

In some cases, borrowers with low incomes could be required to make a zero-dollar payment and would still be considered current on their loan. Monthly payments can increase or decrease each year based on the borrower's income and family size.

For those who think getting full debt forgiveness in 20 years is far too long, why there's a loophole for that too: just go "work" for Uncle Sam:

Borrowers with public-service jobs may qualify for loan forgiveness after just 10 years.

As for eligibility "constraints":

To be eligible for the program, borrowers must have taken out their first federal student loan after Sept. 30, 2007, and received at least one federal student loan after Sept. 30, 2011. Borrowers also must meet eligibility cutoffs based on the size of their debt, their discretionary income and family size.

 

The U.S. Department of Education's Pay As You Earn calculator, available at studentaid.gov, can help you determine if you qualify. Borrowers can apply for the program online or by contacting the loan servicer that collects their payments on behalf of the federal government.

In other words, virtually all people who were responsible for the diagonal take off in the Federal student loan total in the current depression are now eligible for what will eventually be full debt discharge.

So let's get this straight:

1.go to some "everyone who applies is admitted" community college
2.take on the biggest Federal loan one can get
3.use the proceeds for everything besides the tuition (of course)
4.be unable to find a job after graduation (naturally)
5.plead poverty, accusing evil employers who don't hire those who majored in Foosball, and make "zero" payments while remaining in "compliance"
6.get a job working for the government, wait ten years, and have the entire loan magically disappear.
And there it is: incentives for the common, and very much broke, man in the New Normal.

If there is anyone out there who thinks this will not result in a "charge it" feeding frenzy and that the Federal student loan total will not go absolutely parabolic going forward, please raise your hand.

Of course, what is not discussed, is who is on the other side of all those forgiven loans. And the answer, dear taxpaying US readers, is starting at you in the mirror. Because all the Federal government will do is transfer the unfunded obligation, which has already been used to satisfy the purchase of goods and services, from one individual to the whole group.

But when one is dealing with the government of a country that is no longer even fit to be defined as "banana", what is adding one more trillion between already insolvent counterparties.

Finally, yes, this means the Fed just tacked on one more year of QE to its $1 trillion/year in US debt monetization, which also means the Fed's balance sheet will now also be used for to fund student loan forgiveness, among so many other things.

Insolvent students of the world, unite!
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 05, 2013, 05:44:34 PM
Quote
Which is why we were not surprised to learn that the Federal government has now delivered yet another bailout program: this time focusing not on banks, or homeowners who bought McMansions and decided to not pay their mortgage, but on those millions of Americans, aged 18 to 80, that are drowning in student debt - debt, incidentally, which has been used to pay for drugs, motorcycles, games, tattoos, not to mention countless iProducts.

Not that I disagree with Tyler, necessarily. But my problem with the Zero Hedge crowd is, they make it sound like tax-payers, or rather, money earners, are a uniformly just and righteous set.

As example, let's consider Paul Ryan. He and his family made their riches, which I presume they pay taxes on, by running an earth moving enterprise. Which is to say, bulldozing the earth flat, mostly. Is this virtuous, because they made money, because they pay taxes? It is, I suppose, if you think the point of human existence is to pave the planet. Not sayin some earth movin' doesn't need to happen sometimes, just saying, just because you earn money and pay taxes doing whatever does not make you holy. If something needs reform in this country, it's the Puritan/Protestant work ethic, which facilitates the view that the earth is a thing to be exploited for the purpose of seeing how much any one individual can accumulate, without limit apparently. The sickness of Santanelli's "water bearers and water drinkers" is one and the same.

That said, these new rules should prove very lucrative for big edu. And ruinous for America, of course, as big edu mostly teaches BAU.



Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 05, 2013, 05:58:57 PM
Not that I disagree with Tyler, necessarily. But my problem with the Zero Hedge crowd is, they make it sound like tax-payers, or rather, money earners, are a uniformly just and righteous set.

The problem with the Zero Hedge crowd is that they are Pigmen, Piglet or wannabee Piglets.

The whole meme there is that the Bizness of Amerika is Bizness, and if you just let the Free Market go BERZERK and get rid of Goobermint, we would be doing GREAT!

They love to hate Keynesians and Fiat Money, except they all trade arund the Fiat every day and the minute Da Fed stops printing they will first go broke and then be pissed the endless stream of liquidity isn't there to mess around with on their Bloomberg Terminals.  Basically, they are a big bunch of Hypocrites and Fools, Tyler Durdens included there.

ZH however still does report on many stories you won't find in the MSM, and is a good source of collapse info.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 05, 2013, 06:06:57 PM
Read the information not the toilet roll commentary on ZH.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: JoeP on January 05, 2013, 06:26:05 PM

ZH however still does report on many stories you won't find in the MSM, and is a good source of collapse info.

RE

Lord knows, I certainly hope so...considering the volume of ZH content you have posted here.
 
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Snowleopard on January 05, 2013, 07:11:06 PM

The whole meme there is that the Bizness of Amerika is Bizness, and if you just let the Free Market go BERZERK and get rid of Goobermint, we would be doing GREAT!

They love to hate Keynesians and Fiat Money, except they all trade arund the Fiat every day and the minute Da Fed stops printing they will first go broke and then be pissed the endless stream of liquidity isn't there to mess around with on their Bloomberg Terminals.  Basically, they are a big bunch of Hypocrites and Fools, Tyler Durdens included there.

RE

Among the other contradictions in this meme:

"Gooberment" is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bizness. It brings in too much profit to Bizness to get rid of and, of course, it lets its owners go beserk!

The US printer of fiat, the FED, IS a  Bizness, owned by the Banksters.
Title: Higher Education Financialism
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 03:49:20 AM
Higher Education Financialism (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/01/06/higher-education-financialism/) by yours truly RE now UP on the Diner Blog!

This is an expansion on a post I made here inside this thread with some additional material to digest with your Bloody Maries at Sunday Brunch.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Surly1 on January 06, 2013, 06:00:44 AM
In keeping with trying to catch up on what's been going on, I read your recent article with interest. I have to ask, what changes in student loans laws has actually occurred? When last I bothered to look into this, student loans were not dischargeable, even in bankruptcy. I recall even reading about how one particular bank had hounded the parents of the dead student for the balance of outstanding loan. Bastards. Has some specific legislation occurred to enable the freewheeling cash flow bonanza that you describe in your post?

Inquiring minds want to know. 
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: JoeP on January 06, 2013, 06:46:10 AM
In keeping with trying to catch up on what's been going on, I read your recent article with interest. I have to ask, what changes in student loans laws has actually occurred? When last I bothered to look into this, student loans were not dischargeable, even in bankruptcy. I recall even reading about how one particular bank had hounded the parents of the dead student for the balance of outstanding loan. Bastards. Has some specific legislation occurred to enable the freewheeling cash flow bonanza that you describe in your post?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Surly, see reply #11 in this thread.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 07:07:09 AM
"gatekept jobs in law and medicine cant be outsourced to Chindians" I saw a program where they had a whole floor of indian law grads like a call centre where they were outsourcing to. Obviously This doesnt benefit J6P who still has to pay 300-400$/hr for a lawyer sending him broke. It does work well for that expensive lawyer who gets all the legwork stuff done at a discount, also the big players who outsource to them.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 07:16:50 AM
We have just wasted uncountable billions in the Middle East, with nothing to show for it. Just pissed away trillions on tarp and all other bail out bull shit, most of which the Fed want's kept secret.

But we can't  provide universal Free Education for our youth. Kindergarden through four years of college?

What better investment could there be for the future well being of our country? Who made the dick head decision to stop it at high school?

When are we going to elect some leaders that don't have their heads stuck up their ass or a banksters? 

I just don't get it. :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 06, 2013, 11:26:35 AM
I bet you do get it.  Because at this point, the true answer is unavoidably obvious.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
I despise Banksters with every fiber in my body ... and I have a LARGE body.  OK?

That being said, why blame bankers for student debt?  Sure, debt is a form of servitude.  But, did someone hold a gun to the student's head when he/she took out a $100k loan?  Of course not.  They entered into this Debt CONTRACT voluntarily. Pay your fuckin' debt and STFU!!! And don't give me any bullshit about the gub'mint not paying their debts, or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right. Quit blaming everything and/or everyone for your problems, Mr. Student Debtor. STFU and take personal responsibility.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Surly1 on January 06, 2013, 12:29:34 PM
In keeping with trying to catch up on what's been going on, I read your recent article with interest. I have to ask, what changes in student loans laws has actually occurred? When last I bothered to look into this, student loans were not dischargeable, even in bankruptcy. I recall even reading about how one particular bank had hounded the parents of the dead student for the balance of outstanding loan. Bastards. Has some specific legislation occurred to enable the freewheeling cash flow bonanza that you describe in your post?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Surly, see reply #11 in this thread.

Still playing catchup. Got it now. Whouda thunk it?
Amazing.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 12:32:24 PM
people arent thinking much about it when theyre 18-22, they think they will be on the big bucks when they graduate and it wont be a problem. Parents should set them str8 from the start and tell them to work through uni, that way they appreciate low wages without benefits and being easily expendable working at walmart etc.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: monsta666 on January 06, 2013, 02:43:16 PM
I despise Banksters with every fiber in my body ... and I have a LARGE body.  OK?

That being said, why blame bankers for student debt?  Sure, debt is a form of servitude.  But, did someone hold a gun to the student's head when he/she took out a $100k loan?  Of course not.  They entered into this Debt CONTRACT voluntarily. Pay your fuckin' debt and STFU!!! And don't give me any bullshit about the gub'mint not paying their debts, or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right. Quit blaming everything and/or everyone for your problems, Mr. Student Debtor. STFU and take personal responsibility.

But don't you think that a lot of these young people have been somewhat deceived not just from teachers and advisor but by their parents that getting a degree is a ticket to getting a good job? A lot of them have been sent a bill of goods and while I would not put the sole responsibility on the parents, the kids still hold most of the fault, I do think the older members of society should stress the risks more strongly before making these decision. The failure of them doing means they must shoulder some of the blame. In many cases not only are many adults painting a college education as the way to go but they even pressurise to go into college and go into debt. So in this sense the student is suffering not only because of their poor decision but also the poor decisions of their parents and educational advisor.

Yes you can make a case they should pay regardless and they need to learn the dangers of debt but even with this argument it is not quite right. Student debt unlike most other loans, are non dis-chargeable even after bankruptcy. This is not fair. If you make it a loan they should be relieved of their debts if they declare bankruptcy. It is like you said the debt is a legal contract which is made between TWO parties. While the student must ensure they have plans to repay this debt so they can honour their side of the contract it is also the responsibility of the lender to ensure their clients can payback the loans. If they cannot make good assessments about the capability of their clients through due diligence then they need to suffer the consequences. That is the way it works for most loans.

With this set-up all the risks are borne on the clients and the banks who lend the money suffer no risk of losing this money. This dynamic will therefore lead to excess loans being issued, often through predatory means, and will ultimately lead to investment. More significant however is this policy of non-dischargeable debt means the market is not following the principles of a free market as ultimately it is the governemnt and students who end up having to foot the bills for all these malinvestments and are therefore subsidising the whole industry.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Snowleopard on January 06, 2013, 02:46:29 PM
I despise Banksters with every fiber in my body ... and I have a LARGE body.  OK?

That being said, why blame bankers for student debt?  Sure, debt is a form of servitude.  But, did someone hold a gun to the student's head when he/she took out a $100k loan?  Of course not.  They entered into this Debt CONTRACT voluntarily. Pay your fuckin' debt and STFU!!! And don't give me any bullshit about the gub'mint not paying their debts, or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right. Quit blaming everything and/or everyone for your problems, Mr. Student Debtor. STFU and take personal responsibility.

I agree with your opinion of banksters. 

Personal/individual responsibility is a great study subject. 

So are independent thought and critical thinking. 

These subjects just don't happen to be taught at LocalEd.gov;  Instead they are usually shills for Big Ed and teach groupthink.   Much of the remainder of a kid's info comes from MSM which IS controlled by the banksters. 

Parents have some responsibility here, but, if they have a clue at all, they are usually too burned out from working to overmatch the teachers union, guidance councelors, MSM and peer pressure.

Sure it IS the kid's responsibility.  But someone needs to explain that reality to him before dotted line time.  Maybe he should be required to write out that explanation long hand and sign it first??

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 03:12:49 PM
people arent thinking much about it when theyre 18-22, they think they will be on the big bucks when they graduate and it wont be a problem. Parents should set them str8 from the start and tell them to work through uni, that way they appreciate low wages without benefits and being easily expendable working at walmart etc.
They don't have parents anymore, they are broke, miserable, despondent slaves of the banksters and their usury.

The government and the banksters are their new parents, teaching them the wonders of a good education, and hiding the facts about usury and bondage.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 03:25:27 PM
I despise Banksters with every fiber in my body ... and I have a LARGE body.  OK?

That being said, why blame bankers for student debt?  Sure, debt is a form of servitude.  But, did someone hold a gun to the student's head when he/she took out a $100k loan?  Of course not.  They entered into this Debt CONTRACT voluntarily. Pay your fuckin' debt and STFU!!! And don't give me any bullshit about the gub'mint not paying their debts, or whatever. Two wrongs don't make a right. Quit blaming everything and/or everyone for your problems, Mr. Student Debtor. STFU and take personal responsibility.

Actually, an Economic Gun IS pointed at your head to take out these loans.  Everybody including your parents tells you that if you don't get a Sheepskin, you are gonna be sweeping floors and scrubbing toilets or flipping burgers the rest of your life, and since Union Jobs in industry flew offshore, the jobs for academic dummies who did great in Shop Class don't exist anymore.  In fact trade jobs like HVAC or Plumbing and so forth are all Associates Degree type programs themselves now.

Far as "working your way through Uni" in Aussie-speak goes, if you get a job flipping burgers, just the tuition alone is more than you make a year for full time.  What do you eat on?  Where do you sleep?  You gotta take out loans for the dorms, food and books minimum.  Part time?  Takes you 8 years to get your Bachelors, meaningless degree which gets you nothing anymore, another 6 years to get an MBA or JD.  So now you are 32 years old with the right sheepskins, except you got ZERO experience and the high paying jobs in the Big Banks are handed off to the 25 year olds graduating from Harvard who went full time on Dad the Pigman's dime.

As long as the industrial meme has been functioning, the Sheepskin was the Ticket out of the Lower Class and into the Middle to Upper Middle class.  So if you were poor, the Economic Gun was take out the loans sonny boy or stay poor.

Now, for a while there, the DESPERATELY poor got Handouts to go to school, not to mention Affrimative Action for the Melanin Gifted jumping them up the line ahead of kids with better SAT scores, but those handouts are disappearing.  Although Lucid Dreams here did get a Pell Grant to go to Nursing School which should cover most of his bills.

Anyhow, even back in my day when it was a lot cheaper, even with scholarships AND getting a Work-Study Job I STILL had to take out loans to get everything covered, and then I did get a big bucks job for a while and paying the monthly bill was easy.  I should have paid the whole thing off the first year instead of stuffing Coke up the noses of Joffrey Ballet dancers, but what self-respecting young Pigman would wanna do that?  LOL.  Anyhow the damn bill haunted me for years after that, particularly when my Union went on strike for 6 months and I got behind on everything.  In the end that bill did get paid off, mainly by running up Credit Card bills to pay for everything else.  Then I declared BK finally and got out from under all of it.  :icon_mrgreen:

The bottom line here is if the society puports to be Equal Opportunity, then Education should be free for everyone, or paid for by the society as a whole, however you want to phrase it.  Otherwise, the Rich got MORE opportunity, and MORE is not EQUAL.  The Son of a Pigman going to school has far more time to study for Midterms and Finals than his Working Stiff classmate, who shows up dead tired for class because he was working all night stocking shelves at Walmart.  This is a totally unlevel playing field, not the mark of a society which purports to Equal Opportunity.

Take some resonsibility?  Bullshit.  The game is rigged so you fork over interest payments for years to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.  Everybody Knows. Pump Up the Volume! (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/07/23/pump-up-the-volume/)

http://www.youtube.com/v/PuuCezrAUKk

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 03:34:16 PM
Deceived?  No.  Misled?  Yes.

Still no excuse.  Hey ... I was misled about that Grenada I bought.  The Ford commercials said it was just like a Mercedes.  But, it was a big piece of shit.  Maybe I shouldn't have repaid that loan.  Hey, I was misled in buying the house.  They said it would appreciate forever. Maybe I shouldn't pay that either.  And so it goes ... being misled is no excuse.

Also, are the current crop of kids THAT stupid?  Even though I went to college back in the 70's even I knew there were NO GUARANTEES ... even though I took computer science as my major, instead of Art Appreciation.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 03:42:25 PM
Quote
Sure it IS the kid's responsibility.  But someone needs to explain that reality to him before dotted line time.  Maybe he should be required to write out that explanation long hand and sign it first??

I remember how smart I was at 18. You could have sold me the Brooklyn Bridge for 100 bucks.

They used to sell beautiful house lots on the back of cereal boxes to those smart enough to think ahead to retirement back then, a couple of grand got you a beautiful lot in the Florida Everglades with billions of mosquitoes and and a few hundreds alligators for next door neighbors. No Money Down , free and clear title after thirty years of small monthly payments.


Sure, the kids were adults at 18 and should have read the fine print, or at least their parents, who were mostly slaving for the loving pigmen.  Nothing more easy to understand than the fine print of the honest loving  banksters. Does anyone remember them doing God's work and handing out free credit cards, you could get a half dozen of them if you wished. The teachers and goobermint were right there warning everyone not to take the bait, weren't they???
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 03:48:48 PM
“Actually, an Economic Gun IS pointed at your head to take out these loans.  Everybody including your parents tells you that if you don't get a Sheepskin …”  -----RE

Wrong. Even if you are speaking figuratively.  Those racking up $100k debts are certainly going to the “better” schools … not some state school or Community College.  Again, are these “kids” so fuckin’ stoopid they can’t read the Newz?  Who the hell ever actually told them a job in their major was “guaranteed”?  Nobody. Gimme a break, here.

“The bottom line here is if the society purports to be Equal Opportunity, then Education should be free for everyone …”  -----RE

Bullshit.  Why stop at Education?  Let’s extend that to Medical Care, Housing, iPhones, Food, Clothing, …. Yeah, let’s make EVERYTHING free.  Oh … wait ….

"Take some responsibility?  Bullshit." ----- RE

I call double-bullshit on your bullshit, and raise you ten bullshits. Seriously, do you support personal responsibility for anything??
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 04:01:20 PM
Deceived?  No.  Misled?  Yes.

Still no excuse.  Hey ... I was misled about that Grenada I bought.  The Ford commercials said it was just like a Mercedes.  But, it was a big piece of shit.  Maybe I shouldn't have repaid that loan.  Hey, I was misled in buying the house.  They said it would appreciate forever. Maybe I shouldn't pay that either.  And so it goes ... being misled is no excuse.

Umm, no.  If you are actively misled then under Tort Law the Contract is abrogated.  I'm not a Tort Lawyer, but even I know that from watching LA Law.  LOL.  So legally speaking, you shouldn't have paid off the Grenada or the McMansion.

Quote
Also, are the current crop of kids THAT stupid?  Even though I went to college back in the 70's even I knew there were NO GUARANTEES ... even though I took computer science as my major, instead of Art Appreciation.

Question 1 Answer: Yes.  Public Schools don't teach anything, and the Media teaches that for Everything You Want but Cannot Afford, there is VISA.

Tall, Natively Smart Young Kraut Immigrants (OK, they are not Krauts now, they are Chindians and usually Small not Tall) take IT classes now too.  Guess what?  NO JOBS for IT Grads OR Art History grads either! LOL.

Stuck, you did not address a single point I made in my post, or any that Monsta made either.  You are regurgitating TBP philosophy here and not responding to the arguments.  Negative Points for this.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: monsta666 on January 06, 2013, 04:16:21 PM
“The bottom line here is if the society purports to be Equal Opportunity, then Education should be free for everyone …”  -----RE

Bullshit.  Why stop at Education?  Let’s extend that to Medical Care, Housing, iPhones, Food, Clothing, …. Yeah, let’s make EVERYTHING free.  Oh … wait ….

You don't have to make everything free you are using a straw man argument here. Education is one of the best means of achieving social mobility so if a society strives to be a place where anyone can make it (i.e. the American Dream) then the simplest way to achieve this is to let people start at a relative equal footing when it comes to education. That way everyone is given a decent start at the beginning to achieve what they want through hard work and talent. By adding large financial barriers to this educational process all you are doing is simply reinforcing the existing social classes and reducing social mobility. If you are happy with this arrangement then fair enough but then Americans who subscribe to this dynamic should claim the country is the land of the free where anyone can make it. A system that places such a high financial burden on education will simply enforce the existing social classes and lock the working class to the bottom. What is more any talented poor folks that do try and get to the top have to pay top rates that will only enrich the richer even further.

Housing, medical treatment and other consumer items do not help with social mobility so they do not need to be funded for this reason. Education does however. It is also in the interest of society that all its member are educated to a decent level that way they can make more informed decisions not just on their personal level but also in how the country should be run.  Finally the loans agreed upon involve two parties both of which need to be held accountable for their decisions. At the moment all you are doing is focusing on the irresponsible student. However it is also the banks responsibility to ensure its customers have a realistic chance in paying back those loans. If they don't perform due diligence and give out loans like a drunken sailor then they need to face the consequences of losing money or even going bankrupt. That is capitalism! Bad players need to pay for their poor decisions and should not depend on the government to bail them out. This goes against the principles of free market and capitalism which I am guessing you are a great fan of.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 04:23:06 PM
My responses in Blue.

“Actually, an Economic Gun IS pointed at your head to take out these loans.  Everybody including your parents tells you that if you don't get a Sheepskin …”  -----RE

Wrong. Even if you are speaking figuratively.  Those racking up $100k debts are certainly going to the “better” schools … not some state school or Community College.  Again, are these “kids” so fuckin’ stoopid they can’t read the Newz?  Who the hell ever actually told them a job in their major was “guaranteed”?  Nobody. Gimme a break, here.

All Degrees are Not Equal.  An MBA from Harvard is worth more than an MBA from Kaplan Online University.  LOL.

If you got the smarts to get into one of the Elite Institutions, the idea here is on Graduation you will get a job with a big enough paycheck to cover the outrageous bill.  Issue is now, even Elite institution degrees don't always get you the 6 figure paycheck you need to pay it all off.

Even if such a job is not "Guaranteed", why is it that the student bears all the risk involved in the Loan?  The Bankster makes the loan, he is betting the student will get the high paying job.  Student doesn't get such a job, he should lose his bet.  But NOOOOOO, Da Goobermint guarantees the loan and takes all the risk off the Bankster for making what amounts to a subprime bad loan.  Student on the other hand can't even discharge the loan in Bankruptcy.  This is a completely skeweed contractual arrangement on all levels.

“The bottom line here is if the society purports to be Equal Opportunity, then Education should be free for everyone …”  -----RE

Bullshit.  Why stop at Education?  Let’s extend that to Medical Care, Housing, iPhones, Food, Clothing, …. Yeah, let’s make EVERYTHING free.  Oh … wait ….

 Indeed, in such a society all the basics should be available to all.  That would include Food, Education, Medical Care, Shelter, Transportation and Communication.

To cover all of this, I propose everyone over 18 should be issued a Bugout Machine, Cell Phone with High speed Internet connection, Laptop, SNAP Card and Universal Health Access Card. Education free over the Internet on your Laptop. I do not favor issuing out anything past the basics though, if you want a Big Screen TV or Hawaiian Vacations, you need to earn money for that. :icon_mrgreen:

"Take some responsibility?  Bullshit." ----- RE

I call double-bullshit on your bullshit, and raise you ten bullshits. Seriously, do you support personal responsibility for anything??

I support Personal Resonsibility for anything you have Personal Control over.  You don't have personal control over the need to go to Med Skule to be a doctor, the society dictates that. Therefore, the society should pick up the cost of training Doctors.


RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: nobody on January 06, 2013, 04:45:57 PM
Ahhh, Cohen. 
Thanks, RE.  I was listening to him when I was 15 and no one ever heard of him.  I'd find someone like a guy working in a record store and he'd of course talk to me because I was pretty ..and turn me on to Cohen or Pink Floyd or someone no one else in my small town was going to hear for years.  I only know now that those were my angels.
"Oh the sisters of mercy, they are not departed or gone.
They were waiting for me when I thought that I just can't go on.
They brought me their comfort and later they brought me this song.
Oh I hope you run into them -you who've been travelling so long."
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: JoeP on January 06, 2013, 04:54:31 PM
I don't know if my story below has much to add to this discussion or not.  I just thought it might be relevant.

I was in a four day company sponsored course a few weeks ago.  The instructor asked each individual to answer the question "What concerns you".  So we went person by person (16 "students") thru this process and the requirement to answer came upon Duane.  I have known Duane for 18 years.  Not close, but once, we did spend 5 hours together on a golf course in the same electric golf cart.

His answer to the question was "How do I afford college for my children."

Duane is a manager...by my estimate, he makes around $120,000 a year.  His wife also works in a "professional" field.  This guy is "straight as an arrow" so I think he's speaking out about the insane cost of higher education...it's not like he went to Vegas and fucked up the family finances.

I know Duane went to Duke University...I guess that is pretty expensive...if the plan is for the kid(s) to go there too I guess this could be a "concern".
 
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
Ahhh, Cohen. 
Thanks, RE.  I was listening to him when I was 15 and no one ever heard of him.

Love that tune by Leonard, and the associated clip from Pump Up the Volume (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/07/23/pump-up-the-volume/) also. Did you read that article on the blog?

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 05:05:09 PM
“Stuck, you did not address a single point I made in my post, or any that Monsta made either.  You are regurgitating TBP philosophy here ..” -----RE

Actually, I addressed three things you said.  See above post where you are quoted in red. I also addressed Monsta’s idea that students were “deceived”.

I am insulted that you would say I am “regurgitating TBP philosophy”.  I have NEVER done that even on TBP.  Maybe you missed the shitfests I’ve had with Quinn, Smokey, Colma, llpoh, SAH, and others.  I speak MY mind, only and always.

“So legally speaking, you shouldn't have paid off the Grenada or the McMansion.” -----RE

See? This is where we are VERY different. You had a Pigman dad, so maybe that explains it. I had the bluest of blue-collar working stiff kind of dad … the Greatest Generation kind, albeit from Europe.  And, to him a debt was an OBLIGATION that you ALWAYS fulfilled, come hell or high water.  I agree.  I guess I’m just not meant to live with the new realities of debt paying now in the 2000’s.  And, I don’t want to be.

“Even if such a job is not "Guaranteed", why is it that the student bears all the risk involved in the Loan?” -----RE

Because that’s the way bank loans work!!!!  Jeeeezus.  RE’s First National Bank;  “Come bank with us!  We take ALL the risk!  We gots lottsa money … and, we don’t care if you pay us back! Everyone qualifies! It’s your right!  If you ass-fuck us, we’ll just ass-fuck the government. Everyone wins! Competitive rates. Free Toaster!!”


“I support Personal Responsibility for anything you have Personal Control over.”  -----RE

Grasshopper, you do not yet realize how little you can actually control anything. God forbid, but what happens if you become stricken with Cancer?  Did you control that?  No.  So, I guess the government (other people) should pay for that too?
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 05:29:29 PM

I am insulted that you would say I am “regurgitating TBP philosophy”.  I have NEVER done that even on TBP.  Maybe you missed the shitfests I’ve had with Quinn, Smokey, Colma, llpoh, SAH, and others.  I speak MY mind, only and always.

Not the first time I insulted you, won't be the last either.  :icon_mrgreen:

Indeed, you have had many a knock down drag out Napalm contest on TBP with the other regulars there, but on this topic you spout the Accepted Wisdom of "Personal Responsibility" that is an underlying feature of the Tea Bagger meme.  I'm poking holes in that because I think it is a crock of shit when the Power distribution in society is so vastly skewed.

Quote
See? This is where we are VERY different. You had a Pigman dad, so maybe that explains it. I had the bluest of blue-collar working stiff kind of dad … the Greatest Generation kind, albeit from Europe.  And, to him a debt was an OBLIGATION that you ALWAYS fulfilled, come hell or high water.  I agree.  I guess I’m just not meant to live with the new realities of debt paying now in the 2000’s.  And, I don’t want to be.

All due respect to your Greatest Generation Blue Collar Dad and my Greatest Generation Pigman Dad, but Obligations to Slave Masters just are not fairly contracted obligations.  Period.  You don't like the new old reality much?  Neither do I, which of course is why I advocate giving Banksters and those in charge of running this Plantation a First Class Ticket to the Great Beyond.

Quote
Because that’s the way bank loans work!!!!  Jeeeezus.  RE’s First National Bank;  “Come bank with us!  We take ALL the risk!  We gots lottsa money … and, we don’t care if you pay us back! Everyone qualifies! It’s your right!  If you ass-fuck us, we’ll just ass-fuck the government. Everyone wins! Competitive rates. Free Toaster!!”

Actually, I don't think we should have Banks at all, or Money, as you well know.

If you ARE going to run Banks and Loans though, the Banksters who loan out money (which BTW they don't HAVE to begin with they create it out of thin air as soon as you sign on the dotted line) should be going BK right along with the folks they loaned the money out to, but they are not.  So as long as Da Goobermint will hand out Free Money to Banksters, I think it is only fair it hands out Free Money to J6P Son to go to College.  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Grasshopper, you do not yet realize how little you can actually control anything. God forbid, but what happens if you become stricken with Cancer?  Did you control that?  No.  So, I guess the government (other people) should pay for that too?

When I get stricken with Cancer, I'll take the Last Kayak Trip out to Sea.

This is a straw man, because the structure of society is not the same thing as getting hit with Cancer.  It is entirely predictable, entirely structural and operates the same way all the time to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.  It doesn't HAVE to be that way,nor will it be in perpetuity either.  It is just unfortunate that in order to rectify the situation, a whole lotta innocent people will go to the Great Beyond along with the Guilty.  As Uncle Joe Stalin said, "You can't Make an Omellette without Breaking a Few Eggs".

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 05:32:24 PM
“ …. adding large financial barriers to this educational process …”   -----monsta

Nope.  Not happy about the high costs at all.  The gub’mint created the problem long ago, sustains the problem now, and will continue to feed the beast far into the future. I don’t what the solution is. Do you? Seems nearly hopeless.

“ … medical treatment and other consumer items do not help with social mobility” -----monsta

Really? Good health does not help with social mobility?   Wonder just how socially mobile people with brain tumors are?  Housing … fuckit … working out of a cardboard box is just fine ... very easy to transport a box, highly mobile.


“However it is also the banks responsibility to ensure its customers have a realistic chance in paying back those loans.”  -----monsta666

Agree 100%.  Million dollar question – HOW does the bank do that regarding student loans?  It’s almost impossible, isn’t it?  Is the bank going to follow the student around to make sure he/she studies hard, instead of partying?  Is the bank going to make sure the student chooses a major with a good job market?  There is virtually no guarantee  any student can/will pay back any loan. That’s why student loans are non-dischargeable. In reality, the banks should get out of the Student Loan biz altogether. But that wouldn’t be very popular either.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: nobody on January 06, 2013, 05:54:25 PM
RE  "Love that tune by Leonard, and the associated clip from Pump Up the Volume also. Did you read that article on the blog?"

No, that article was among the 600,000 things I missed. 

"I am glad here as I near the end of my years walking the Earth to do once again what I did in my youth so many years ago now in a short career as a Pirate Radio Disk Jockey and Talk Show Host."

Me too.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 05:57:44 PM

“ …. but Obligations to Slave Masters just are not fairly contracted obligations” ----RE

Bull-fucking-shit.  Your silliness is forcing me to defend Banksters, a horrid state of affairs. I hate to break it to you, but you are not the first to realize that lenders are Slave Masters;

“The rich rules over the poor,  And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave.”  
----- Proverbs 22:7

“But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?”----- James 2:6

“A poor man pleads for mercy, but a rich man answers harshly.” 
----- Proverbs 18:23

Stucky’s Incredible Advice To Avoid Being A Debt Slave:  Don’t deal with the fucking banker in the first place!!
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 06:07:10 PM

I know Duane went to Duke University...I guess that is pretty expensive...if the plan is for the kid(s) to go there too I guess this could be a "concern".

Duke University Costs:

TUITION AND EXPENSES

Cost of Attendance

$56,056


Tuition and Fees

$43,623

Room and Board

$12,433

Books and Supplies

Not reported

Other Expenses

Not reported

Payment Plans

Credit card, installment plan, prepayment discount, external finance company

$56K!  NOT Including Books!  You CAN pay it on your VISA card though!  LOL.  Duke isn't even Top Tier Ivy League, its a 2nd tier  Southern Cracker Ivy League Wannabee in North Carolina!  LOL.

What if Duane has 2 kids, who when they were 8 & 10 were pretty cheap except for the high cost of the Hockey Fees and Dance Recitals, but now are 18 & 20?  $112K a YEAR here for Duane!

Banksters doing God's Work are out there to help Duane's kids though.  Here Sonny Boy, just Sign on the Dotted Line, you too can get a High Paying Job as a Pigman...

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: monsta666 on January 06, 2013, 06:21:44 PM
“ …. adding large financial barriers to this educational process …”   -----monsta

Nope.  Not happy about the high costs at all.  The gub’mint created the problem long ago, sustains the problem now, and will continue to feed the beast far into the future. I don’t what the solution is. Do you? Seems nearly hopeless.

I would say mixing private and public entities into one industry or even worse, one/few company, tends to create monstrosities that bring out the worst of both systems. Public education can work, it has done in some countries. And private education can work, if done correctly. But public-private entities? They often fail or are excessively expensive for the service they deliver. Just look at the medical and military industries as other examples of monstrosities created by forming public-private partnerships.

“ … medical treatment and other consumer items do not help with social mobility” -----monsta

Really? Good health does not help with social mobility?   Wonder just how socially mobile people with brain tumors are?  Housing … fuckit … working out of a cardboard box is just fine ... very easy to transport a box, highly mobile.

Most people do not get tumours at an early age. By the time a person has a significant risk of getting a chronic or deadly disease you allude to then they will be of an age were most social doors have more or less closed. Also more opportunities are achieved through education than being healthy. I tend to think that medical treatment should be socialised but not because it promotes social mobility but because privatising this service creates a conflict of interest between the doctor and patient. It also seems that the costs of a public service would be cheaper for the general population and the level of service would not diminish drastically. In short more bang for buck. At the end of the day you are just choosing your poison. Do you pay high taxes to fund medical care or do you not pay higher taxes but pay high insurance rates with always the risk the insurer may bail on you the day you finally need the money and you are the most vulnerable and desperate?

“However it is also the banks responsibility to ensure its customers have a realistic chance in paying back those loans.”  -----monsta666

Agree 100%.  Million dollar question – HOW does the bank do that regarding student loans?  It’s almost impossible, isn’t it?  Is the bank going to follow the student around to make sure he/she studies hard, instead of partying?  Is the bank going to make sure the student chooses a major with a good job market?  There is virtually no guarantee  any student can/will pay back any loan. That’s why student loans are non-dischargeable. In reality, the banks should get out of the Student Loan biz altogether. But that wouldn’t be very popular either.

The bank can hire an actuary who would make a assessment on the probability of a student obtaining a job after graduation. Not only could the actuary assess the probability of graduates finding employment they would also be able to detect the ongoing trends developing in the market. If more graduates are gaining employment in middle-class to upper-class occupations then the banks can lower the rates of interest on student loans so more students get enrolled into university. If the chances are diminishing and less students are getting employed then the risk of a default becomes higher so they raise interest rates. This raising and decreasing of interest should ensure that the supply of students matches the demand for employers and the number of delinquent loans is kept to a minimum.

If there is a chronic shortage of people becoming students due to high loan payments it would highlight the educational system is dysfunctional and  not meeting its advertised objectives. Like most things the market will innovate an alternative route to employment that should provide a greater return to investment than the university system. If left to its own devices!!! Not sure how that would work and do hold personal doubts how this would pan out in real life but that is the theory of how it COULD work in a free market. If you advocate free market this is the way it should be. It can only work though if the government wasn't involved in backstopping bankers failures or subsidising them either directly through cash or indirectly by taking on the risks of dodgy investments made by the banks.

Then again I will say this about free markets. They are paradoxes. If you have no government involvement and left everything to the market then people would game the system and it eventually become a big monopoly/oligopoly or a full on wild west scenario and thus the conditions of a free market would be broken. To stop that from happening means some government involvement is required for regulation but once that occurs you no longer have a free market as there will be some government involvement. There is a bunch of other issues that are little paradoxical in the whole free market concept but I can't be bothered to go into it. In short a total free market is a fantasy created in a textbook much like communism or socialism. Such things never existed in the real world only in textbooks.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 06:24:26 PM

Bull-fucking-shit.  Your silliness is forcing me to defend Banksters, a horrid state of affairs. I hate to break it to you, but you are not the first to realize that lenders are Slave Masters;

“The rich rules over the poor,  And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave.”  
----- Proverbs 22:7

“But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?”----- James 2:6

“A poor man pleads for mercy, but a rich man answers harshly.” 
----- Proverbs 18:23

Biblical Quotes!  Watson is Walkabout, now ex-Fundy ex-Seminarian StuckenThumper takes over!  LOL.

Quote
Stucky’s Incredible Advice To Avoid Being A Debt Slave:  Don’t deal with the fucking banker in the first place!!

I am all for not dealing with Banksters, but how does Duane send his kids to Duke University so they can live the "Amerikan Dream" like he did?  Fill us in StuckenGenius on this one.  Inquiring minds want to know.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 06, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
The notion that you can only wrack up big fees elsewhere than "affordable" state institutions is not true.

Costs in (cheap) Oklahoma for OU & OSU are right in the neighborhood of $20k per year ... that's $100k for most people's experience.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 06, 2013, 06:27:24 PM
Costs that have been quoted to me (by the universities themselves) for private universities have ranged from $48-65k per year.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 06, 2013, 06:29:56 PM
Quote
All due respect to your Greatest Generation Blue Collar Dad and my Greatest Generation Pigman Dad, but Obligations to Slave Masters just are not fairly contracted obligations. 


Absolutely.  Those running it are Racketeers; in the criminal sense.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 06:30:53 PM
Quote
And, to him a debt was an OBLIGATION that you ALWAYS fulfilled, come hell or high water.  I agree.

Stucky1,

Are you a Pigman in disguise?   :exp-grin:  Because I took a bank loan out on this house in 2006, when I KNEW the market was inflated, but being your more-or-less Average American at the time, and generally trusting, I didn't know jack about all the bundling of mortgage securities, etc shenanigan fucking shit going on in the ethereal realm of HIGH FINANCE/TREASURY/FED, and the media wasn't advertising REALITY any more than they do now. I just assumed the housing market here in this nice blue collar/retiree/young family neighborhood in the central city would level off. 

How much bigger is the mo. fucking bank that holds the mortgage on this house, than it was in 2008? Not sure, but I'll describe it as FUCK_ALL bigger. So excuse me, in all due respect, if I get a little fucking testy about someone implying that it is my MORAL obligation to SUCK IT UP and pay the mo fuckers, though this house is what now? $50,000 under water? And my mortgage is tiny compared to yer average suburban 3000 sq ft zombie box.

Grrrrrrr. You get to lecture the likes of me about moral obligations to Pigmen Driving The World Toward Epic Over-Reach Insolvency, when you come up with some DOABLE SOLUTION about how to hold the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE accountable for their devilish machinations. OK?

Rant done.  :icon_mrgreen:   
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 06:31:42 PM
Me too.

Thank you Nobody.  That means a lot to me.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 06:41:17 PM

Stucky1,

Are you a Pigman in disguise?   :exp-grin:

PILE ON STUCKENTEABAGGER!

LOL.

This ain't TBP Stucky. You won't get a whole lot of support for this opinion here.  I am sure though you will defend it until the next Flood rolls through.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: nobody on January 06, 2013, 06:42:52 PM
You're welcome, RE

On this student loan subject, before our oldest got into the last remaining great apprenticeship (VFD), we were paying for his schooling at the local community college.  It was simply appalling.  If the tuition didn't make you scream, the book cost did, and if that didn't, the many fees (for everything) and extras did; you couldn't even park there for classes without an exorbitant cost.. and for what?  A very shitty education.  One class we paid over 2 grand for was online, taught by a bevy of non-existent persons, absolutely worthless and he got a bad grade because he really couldn't navigate it (and he's very smart and worked hard).  I tried to at least expunge the grade as the class was then dropped from the curriculum and the admin was so terrible I couldn't even get that done.  We covered all expenses because we didn't want him exposed to the then draconian measures they're apparently now changing.  The costs of even the cheapest schools are exquisitely painful
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 06:46:19 PM
“but how does Duane send his kids to Duke University so they can live the "Amerikan Dream" like he did?  Fill us in StuckenGenius on this one.”  ------RE

First, it’s spelled with an ‘h’.  StuchenGenius and StuchenThumper.  Second, no one here has any idea what the hell you mean by that. Unlike Lord God Ashvin, my Biblical quotes have nothing to do with the spirit life … they are economic quotes. StuchenBlowMe.

Why are you asking me such EASY questions??  Here’s what Duane does: he lives according to his means … and if that means No Dookie edumacation for his silver spooned offspring then he should change his fucking expectations.

My dad has been here since 1958.  He has never owned a credit card.  He has no debit card. The ONLY loan he ever took out was the mortgage.  Yeah … even his new cars were paid for in cash. Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 06:52:18 PM
Quote
I took a bank loan out on this house in 2006,

Stucky1

In the interest of pointing out that my rant was slightly off topic, I'd like to point out too that as a primary thrust of the culture has been about Home Ownership, an equally important aspect of that mythology has been, you go to college to get a good paying job. So at the same time as the cultural mythology is feeding the Eternal Growth paradigm, and Masters of Finance are handing out credit like candy, we inflate the cost of big edu about 1000% over a generation And now that there are no jobs, you say, pay up anyway?

It's one thing to say if people are so stupid as to take out such loans, they should have to pay them. I say, people who prey on "stupid" people can burn in the "eternal hellfire" they use to control them. In other words, I'd be fine with making usury punishable by death. Or at the very least, no banker should make more than your average blue collar.   

 
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: JoeP on January 06, 2013, 06:56:07 PM
“but how does Duane send his kids to Duke University so they can live the "Amerikan Dream" like he did?  Fill us in StuckenGenius on this one.”  ------RE

First, it’s spelled with an ‘h’.  StuchenGenius and StuchenThumper.  Second, no one here has any idea what the hell you mean by that. Unlike Lord God Ashvin, my Biblical quotes have nothing to do with the spirit life … they are economic quotes. StuchenBlowMe.

Why are you asking me such EASY questions??  Here’s what Duane does: he lives according to his means … and if that means No Dookie edumacation for his silver spooned offspring then he should change his fucking expectations.

My dad has been here since 1958.  He has never owned a credit card.  He has no debit card. The ONLY loan he ever took out was the mortgage.  Yeah … even his new cars were paid for in cash. Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).

Yeah, that's the reality.  But I think there is some family "tradition" going on here.  Alot of pressure.
 
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 06:59:53 PM
RE, yeah youre right working your way through uni is no longer possible like it was in my day of early 90's  due to the massively increased expense. And in fact, there probably arent enough part time unskilled jobs for students anymore anyway.

I believe some time ago GO hit on an important distinction when I said ANYBODY should be able to get a degree he said yes but not EVERYBODY.

They have turned the universities into money making machines, the standards are ridiculously low, I can tell you most native english speaking students now do not have a quarter of the command of the english language in academic and professional writing as you can see in these posts. And then there are the overseas students who often write so badly it is unintelligible. They get a degree for turning up but most importantly for PAYING up.

What we have with qualifications now is the same as what we have with cars and houses. Young people wanting to all start with the best, brand new cars instead of affordable old ones, and brand new big houses instead of smaller older ones all straight off starting off.

STOP MAKING IT SO EASY TO GET IN. fuck the bridging courses and recognition of "life experience", and then the ongoing recognition of whatever disadvantage right through. You should need at least a 70% pass in yr 12/SAT to start off Or make the bridging course MEAN SOMETHING, a decent standard.

If you make it reasonably hard to get in, in the first place you dont have too many  graduates and not enough jobs for those grads. You also have less incompetent so called professionals.



Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 07:01:11 PM
Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).

Incredible indeed, because you can't save up for a Tuition that Inflates in cost faster than your income does.  WTF could save up $200K plus for a 4 year tuition for even ONE of their kids to go to Duke University and get a bullshit BA? Even if you are making $100K/year for the 18 years in between the birth of the child and entry to college you can;t save that much after taxes and living expenses, not to mention the medical insurance and bills and the new tires for the car....

So effectively what you are saying here is if you are J6P Middle Class, DOWNSIZE your ambition for your kid to at least have the same shot in life you did.  "I'm sorry son, I don't make enough money to send you to my Alma Mater of Duke University.  You can go Online and live in the Basement of our McMansion for 4 years and get a Degree from Kaplan Online University.  We can afford that."

Downward Mobility all the way under the StuchenDimwit Program!  LOL.   Ya can't afford College, don't take out a loan and don't go!  Work for 100 years flipping burgers at Mickey Ds, SAVE up enough, THEN go to College as a Centenarian!  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 07:08:32 PM

STOP MAKING IT SO EASY TO GET IN. fuck the bridging courses and recognition of "life experience", and then the ongoing recognition of whatever disadvantage right through. You should need at least a 70% pass in yr 12/SAT to start off

Fuck that.  I think to go to College you need a 1600 on your SAT.   :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 07:18:29 PM
Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).

Incredible indeed, because you can't save up for a Tuition that Inflates in cost faster than your income does.  WTF could save up $200K plus for a 4 year tuition for even ONE of their kids to go to Duke University and get a bullshit BA? Even if you are making $100K/year for the 18 years in between the birth of the child and entry to college you can;t save that much after taxes and living expenses, not to mention the medical insurance and bills and the new tires for the car....

So effectively what you are saying here is if you are J6P Middle Class, DOWNSIZE your ambition for your kid to at least have the same shot in life you did.  "I'm sorry son, I don't make enough money to send you to my Alma Mater of Duke University.  You can go Online and live in the Basement of our McMansion for 4 years and get a Degree from Kaplan Online University.  We can afford that."

Downward Mobility all the way under the StuchenDimwit Program!  LOL.   Ya can't afford College, don't take out a loan and don't go!  Work for 100 years flipping burgers at Mickey Ds, SAVE up enough, THEN go to College as a Centenarian!  LOL.

RE


I don't think Stuchenheimer quite gets the changing state of play, relative to the period his Dad and my Dad made their money. You can't even put your saved up cash in a savings account and cover inflation. In fact, unless you have REAMS of excess cash, it's no easy thing to invest in the Worlds Greatest Casino EVER - WS, and make enough to cover REAL inflation.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Snowleopard on January 06, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).

Incredible indeed, because you can't save up for a Tuition that Inflates in cost faster than your income does.  WTF could save up $200K plus for a 4 year tuition for even ONE of their kids to go to Duke University and get a bullshit BA? Even if you are making $100K/year for the 18 years in between the birth of the child and entry to college you can;t save that much after taxes and living expenses, not to mention the medical insurance and bills and the new tires for the car....

So effectively what you are saying here is if you are J6P Middle Class, DOWNSIZE your ambition for your kid to at least have the same shot in life you did.  "I'm sorry son, I don't make enough money to send you to my Alma Mater of Duke University.  You can go Online and live in the Basement of our McMansion for 4 years and get a Degree from Kaplan Online University.  We can afford that."

Downward Mobility all the way under the StuchenDimwit Program!  LOL.   Ya can't afford College, don't take out a loan and don't go!  Work for 100 years flipping burgers at Mickey Ds, SAVE up enough, THEN go to College as a Centenarian!  LOL.

RE

Sure looks like a lose, lose proposition to me.  Mega debt + fat chance, or guaranteed downward mobility. 

Maybe some uni will take you on as a custodian or groundskeeper and you can get free tuition?  Probably those jobs go to employees' inlaws.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: JoeP on January 06, 2013, 07:20:28 PM

I think to go to College you need a 1600 on your SAT.   :icon_mrgreen:

RE

I suppose that would solve a few "decision making" problems.   ;D
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
“The bank can hire an actuary who would make a assessment on the probability of a student obtaining a job after graduation …”  
-----monsta

You place much faith in actuaries.  Ivy League economists can’t even predict the next fiscal quarter accurately, and these actuaries are going to predict 4+ years into the future? Even so, at best they can predict what type of jobs might be in demand. They can’t predict diddlysquat about the student; will they study, are they motivated, committed, etc. 

“Grrrrrrr. You get to lecture the likes of me about moral obligations to Pigmen …”-----WHD

If I’m lecturing, I apologize.  Feel free to do whatever you want … without judgment from me. I thought I was just discussing my viewpoint.


“…. Driving The World Toward Epic Over-Reach Insolvency, when you come up with some DOABLE SOLUTION about how to hold the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE accountable for their devilish machinations. OK  …… And now that there are no jobs, you say, pay up anyway?”  -----WHD

I am sorry you are underwater. We are also. I understand first-hand the evil shit the bankers have done regarding mortgages.  If they committed fraud in the transaction then that’s a broken contract and I say “Fuck them. Don’t pay them.”

But a house underwater does not constitute fraud. Was there a line in the contract that stated; “You don’t have to pay us back if your house is underwater.”?  Was there a line in the contract that said, “You don’t have to pay us back if there are no jobs.”?  Was there a line in the contract that said, “You don’t have to pay us back if it’s proven we are fucking crooks.”? 


I’m starting to understand what Ashvin must feel.  You guys are gang-banging me.  My a-hole is starting to hurt. I don’t have a single supporter here?  I Am the Voice Crying in the Wilderness …. “Repent, Pay Up muthafuckers!”
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 07:27:49 PM
I certainly wont be trying to find 100,000$ per kid per degree. NO WAY. Sending them to private school has cost enough and the smart one is close to finishing school and should be in the top 10% and get some scholarship, plus a part time job, plus I paid into a plan for her over 10 years ago.

The youngest one if there is still a functioning economy by the time he finshes school, where the various uniforms alone cost about 450$/yr can do an apprenticeship in a technical field and then his employer can pay for him to do extra courses if he wants to be an engineer. Both his grandfathers who are engineers both did exactly that in the 1970's.  Im not a goddam money tree.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 07:34:40 PM

I’m starting to understand what Ashvin must feel.  You guys are gang-banging me.  My a-hole is starting to hurt. I don’t have a single supporter here?  I Am the Voice Crying in the Wilderness …. “Repent, Pay Up muthafuckers!”

Not just Watson.  Now you get a bit of a taste of what it was like for ME on TBP.

You TOUGH ENOUGH for it Stucky?  Can you answer all comers and never quit until the fucking Admin starts deleting your posting and rewriting it?  You're a New Jersey boy, not  boy from Hell's Kitchen in the Big Apple, so you probably are a Panty Waist.  We'll see.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 07:51:07 PM
“Downward Mobility all the way under the StuchenDimwit Program!  LOL.   Ya can't afford College, don't take out a loan and don't go!  Work for 100 years flipping burgers at Mickey Ds, SAVE up enough, THEN go to College as a Centenarian!”  -----RE

You raise VERY good points.  I do not live in the past.  I KNOW that college costs are astronomically higher in relative terms to when I went in the 70’s.

Guess what?  That’s exactly how it USED to be.  There WAS a time when college was only for the wealthy.  College used to be a priviledge, now it's a "right".  All the RE’s of that time cried out, “That’s not fair!!”.  Along comes Daddy Gooberment and makes it “affordable” for one and all, smart and stoopid alike … and, here we are.

Your solution is worse than mine.  Go to college, take a loan, fuckit, don’t pay it back, post on DD how awesome you are, aggravate Stucky into a heart attack.

You present false alternatives regarding flipping burgers for 100 years.  Plenty of decent jobs that don’t require college.  Big Rig truck driver, for one. BTW, if high schools ACTUALLY taught kids SOMETHING, we wouldn’t need most college degrees. I think the average American college kids are dumber than most European high schoolers.

I can take ANY SHIT YOU FLING MY WAY. Game on.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 07:55:27 PM
“The bank can hire an actuary who would make a assessment on the probability of a student obtaining a job after graduation …”  
-----monsta

You place much faith in actuaries.  Ivy League economists can’t even predict the next fiscal quarter accurately, and these actuaries are going to predict 4+ years into the future? Even so, at best they can predict what type of jobs might be in demand. They can’t predict diddlysquat about the student; will they study, are they motivated, committed, etc. 

“Grrrrrrr. You get to lecture the likes of me about moral obligations to Pigmen …”-----WHD

If I’m lecturing, I apologize.  Feel free to do whatever you want … without judgment from me. I thought I was just discussing my viewpoint.


“…. Driving The World Toward Epic Over-Reach Insolvency, when you come up with some DOABLE SOLUTION about how to hold the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE accountable for their devilish machinations. OK  …… And now that there are no jobs, you say, pay up anyway?”  -----WHD

I am sorry you are underwater. We are also. I understand first-hand the evil shit the bankers have done regarding mortgages.  If they committed fraud in the transaction then that’s a broken contract and I say “Fuck them. Don’t pay them.”

But a house underwater does not constitute fraud. Was there a line in the contract that stated; “You don’t have to pay us back if your house is underwater.”?  Was there a line in the contract that said, “You don’t have to pay us back if there are no jobs.”?  Was there a line in the contract that said, “You don’t have to pay us back if it’s proven we are fucking crooks.”? 


I’m starting to understand what Ashvin must feel.  You guys are gang-banging me.  My a-hole is starting to hurt. I don’t have a single supporter here?  I Am the Voice Crying in the Wilderness …. “Repent, Pay Up muthafuckers!”

Stuchenheimer,

Sorry you feel so hurt. You are no Ashvin. But you did show up all moral-like actin' like there is ANY kind of moral obligation to Pigmen, other than maybe not to kill them (though RE might disagree.) Is there a line in my mortgage document "we reserve the right to sign a few ten million mortgages that we know will never be paid and then bundle them more or less secretly and pass them off as sound securities and thereby implode the global economy leading to our perpetuation as Masters of the Universe for ALL ETERNITY or at least until such time as there is money to be made" ? No, there isn't.

I WORKED for big bank, in their MORTGAGE DEFAULT dept. I SAW that 80% of the loans I audited would not have been viable unless the economy grew at 5% for the rest of eternity. I'm not saying people don't have to take ANY responsibility for entering into contracts; I am sayin' though, what happened to the big banks, for that epic FRAUD? Big gov gave them the keys to the kingdom, that's what.

I didn't mean to insult you either. Generally, I appreciate your commentary. Just sayin' though, on the Diner, NO ONE gets to saunter in and make it sound like the little people should be moral, but the big dogs aren't ever going to be, so deal with it, whatever.

Sorry to hear too, you are underwater. In fact, I'm all for jubilee at this point, across the board. After which, usurers get hauled out to the Marianas Trench and DEPOSITED.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 07:58:54 PM
Im half with you Stuchenhammered,
eg, I once had a patient whose wife had very recently died in a car crash but he was allright with that. He was under stress because as a big fatcat building contractor the bank had lent him too much money on a big development. He was suing the bank for their irresponsibility in lending him the dollars which he could not pay. What a load of bullshit eh? And he won, because he's a fatcat, not like us with a fat chance.

But 18-22 yr olds are not the same to me. What the hell do they know about what they are doing? They just think they are going to party hardy for a few years then get a good job and it will be ok. Their parents are zombies who think the recovery will be all peaches by the time they graduate and they want that graduation foto on the wall as well.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 08:05:32 PM

I can take ANY SHIT YOU FLING MY WAY. Game on.

I know you can Stuck, and that is why I went on a MISSION FROM GOD to draw you over here into the commentariat on the Diner. That was probably 90% of the reason I started posting
(http://gifsoup.com/view6/3890298/knife-fight-rules-a.gif)
again on TBP and cross posted articles with Jimbo.  DESPITE huge objections from Surly on doing this. Too many poeple here agree with me, and too few have as good a sense of humour as you do.

Indeed, GAME ON.  Guns or Knives, Butch?  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
WHD

I was only kidding about feeling hurt. I’m a big guy – really big --- and I CAN take it. Lol And you, kind sir, certainly did not insult me.  Loving all the discussion here … lightweight banter compare to TBP.

I am a product of my upbringing. Aren’t we all?  Certain aspects I have rejected … others have stuck with me like stink on shit.  My dad believing that a debt is an obligation of a promise to repay is one that stuck.  He not only believed it, he lived it. He NEVER paid even one bill late in his entire life.  Quite a feat for a 90 year old man. In fact, the normal course of operations was/is to pay the bill the day it arrives in the mail.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 08:17:20 PM
"That was probably 90% of the reason I started posting again on TBP and cross posted articles with Jimbo." ----RE

WOW.  I don't know what to say.  Thanks, man.

Knife or gun?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I called you an "evil monster" ... and meant it?  Bring your BIGGEST gun.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2013, 08:17:59 PM
[quote author=Stucky1 link=topic=1060.msg14543#msg14543

You raise VERY good points.  I do not live in the past.  I KNOW that college costs are astronomically higher in relative terms to when I went in the 70’s.

Guess what?  That’s exactly how it USED to be.  There WAS a time when college was only for the wealthy.  College used to be a priviledge, now it's a "right".  All the RE’s of that time cried out, “That’s not fair!!”.  Along comes Daddy Gooberment and makes it “affordable” for one and all, smart and stoopid alike … and, here we are.

You present false alternatives regarding flipping burgers for 100 years.  Plenty of decent jobs that don’t require college.  Big Rig truck driver, for one. BTW, if high schools ACTUALLY taught kids SOMETHING, we wouldn’t need most college degrees. I think the average American college kids are dumber than most European high schoolers.

[/quote]

You are echoing the same stance as myself and GO here. Although it would be easiest as a drug dealer or prostitute taken to the logical limit.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 08:24:01 PM

Sorry you feel so hurt. You are no Ashvin.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/97/Abbott_and_Costello.jpg/325px-Abbott_and_Costello.jpg)
Don't worry about hurting Stucky's FEEWINGS.  Stucky is the Anti-RE.  He wears Fireproof BVDs when he posts on the net just like I do.  Trust me, there is no Insult too Big Stucky can't take it and come back Swinging with a Bigger One.

The Pahhty is just beginning now.  This is Laurel & Hardy and Abott & Costello on Doom Steroids.  Trust me on this, when me & Stucky get rolling, Doom gets FUNNY!  :icon_mrgreen:

HEY ABOTT!!!

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 08:36:09 PM
WHD

I was only kidding about feeling hurt. I’m a big guy – really big --- and I CAN take it. Lol And you, kind sir, certainly did not insult me.  Loving all the discussion here … lightweight banter compare to TBP.

I am a product of my upbringing. Aren’t we all?  Certain aspects I have rejected … others have stuck with me like stink on shit.  My dad believing that a debt is an obligation of a promise to repay is one that stuck.  He not only believed it, he lived it. He NEVER paid even one bill late in his entire life.  Quite a feat for a 90 year old man. In fact, the normal course of operations was/is to pay the bill the day it arrives in the mail.


Stuchenheimer,

Good then. You are not one of those who takes things TOO seriously. This is supposed to be FUN!  I LIKE YOU!  ;)

Kudos to your Dad. He sounds like my Dad. Who still holds partial title to this house, which is WHY I find myself in such a quandary. My preferred course of action would be to stop paying and go toe to toe with big bank/racketeering enterprise. Making LOTS of noise. My Dad does not want to talk about big bank, or epic gov/bank FRAUD. He is still convinced, given a little time, the market will be right back where it was. I stop paying, he just picks up the mortgage, no matter how much I tell him he's nuts.

BTW, I enjoyed this:

Quote
Your solution is worse than mine.  Go to college, take a loan, fuckit, don’t pay it back, post on DD how awesome you are, aggravate Stucky into a heart attack.

You present false alternatives regarding flipping burgers for 100 years.  Plenty of decent jobs that don’t require college.  Big Rig truck driver, for one. BTW, if high schools ACTUALLY taught kids SOMETHING, we wouldn’t need most college degrees. I think the average American college kids are dumber than most European high schoolers.

Right, about the High School thing. Institutional schooling in this country is mostly about sorting out who are going to be the WINNERS, and who are going to be the LOSERS, basically keeping young people for a while out of the workforce. Like you say, not really teaching them anything of value. Most of what I studied in college, I could have handled NO PROBLEM at 14-18: Particularly if this culture were not so invested in perpetuating Childhood until death.

BTW - How big? LOL

WHD
 

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 08:42:12 PM
Knife or gun?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I called you an "evil monster" ... and meant it?  Bring your BIGGEST gun.

Sure I remember.  It's the Internet though, and times do change and you learn more each day about what is really going down, and more about the people you chat with too.  I'm not the guy you perceived me to be at that time, I think you know that now.

I still do carry a Big Gun on the Internet though. Have Keyboard, Will Travel. (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb132.gif)

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 08:48:36 PM

BTW - How big? LOL


Stucky is 6'7" and has really big Moobs.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 08:51:01 PM
“The Pahhty is just beginning now.  This is Laurel & Hardy and Abott & Costello on Doom Steroids.  Trust me on this, when me & Stucky get rolling, Doom gets FUNNY!”  -----RE

Don’t mean to hijack this thread with personal stories, but it’s my last post before I retire for the night.

I do try to see/use humor whenever I can.  It’s sometimes the only thing that keeps me sane. But, RE, my vitriol has greatly subsided over the years. You know this story.  After a couple months on TBP, Quinn called me a “neocon asshole”.  That is ALL he said.  I sent him a private email saying I was going to go to his house and kick his ass.  Really.  But, those were the days before I was filled anew daily with the love of the Holy Spirit.  Now, I hardly ever let the sun go down on my wrath.  I’m a pussy cat.  RE, I’m even starting to like your Potluck, Potlatch, whatever  theories. Anything is better than letting 7 million die.

WHD --- I’m 6’7”,  275lbs  (was 318 lbs last year … size double-A)

And that's the way it is.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: Stucky1 on January 06, 2013, 08:56:01 PM
"I'm not the guy you perceived me to be at that time, I think you know that now." -----RE

Yup! If I ever make it up to Alaska, I'm looking you up, like it or not.  Have a beer with you and some bear's ass, or whatever it is you people eat up there.   I think that would be a hoot.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: WHD on January 06, 2013, 09:11:33 PM
“The Pahhty is just beginning now.  This is Laurel & Hardy and Abott & Costello on Doom Steroids.  Trust me on this, when me & Stucky get rolling, Doom gets FUNNY!”  -----RE

Don’t mean to hijack this thread with personal stories, but it’s my last post before I retire for the night.

I do try to see/use humor whenever I can.  It’s sometimes the only thing that keeps me sane. But, RE, my vitriol has greatly subsided over the years. You know this story.  After a couple months on TBP, Quinn called me a “neocon asshole”.  That is ALL he said.  I sent him a private email saying I was going to go to his house and kick his ass.  Really.  But, those were the days before I was filled anew daily with the love of the Holy Spirit.  Now, I hardly ever let the sun go down on my wrath.  I’m a pussy cat.  RE, I’m even starting to like your Potluck, Potlatch, whatever  theories. Anything is better than letting 7 million die.

WHD --- I’m 6’7”,  275lbs  (was 318 lbs last year … size double-A)

And that's the way it is.

That's big.

 No wonder you swear so much. It's the Holy Spirit! LOL
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 11:11:38 PM
“but how does Duane send his kids to Duke University so they can live the "Amerikan Dream" like he did?  Fill us in StuckenGenius on this one.”  ------RE

First, it’s spelled with an ‘h’.  StuchenGenius and StuchenThumper.  Second, no one here has any idea what the hell you mean by that. Unlike Lord God Ashvin, my Biblical quotes have nothing to do with the spirit life … they are economic quotes. StuchenBlowMe.

Why are you asking me such EASY questions??  Here’s what Duane does: he lives according to his means … and if that means No Dookie edumacation for his silver spooned offspring then he should change his fucking expectations.

My dad has been here since 1958.  He has never owned a credit card.  He has no debit card. The ONLY loan he ever took out was the mortgage.  Yeah … even his new cars were paid for in cash. Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).



Shakespeare Quotes
Neither a borrower nor a lender be

    Polonius:
    Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
    For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
    And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
    Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 75–77

Old Polonius counsels his hotheaded son Laertes, who is about to embark for Paris for his gentleman's education [see THE PRIMROSE PATH]. While he still has the chance, Polonius wholesales a stockroom of aphorisms, the most famous of which is "Neither a borrower nor a lender be."

On Polonius's terms, there is little to argue with in his perhaps ungenerous advice. His logic is thus: lending money to friends is risky, because hitching debt onto personal relationships can cause resentment and, in the case of default, loses the lender both his money and his friend. Borrowing invites more private dangers: it supplants domestic thrift ("husbandry")—in Polonius's eyes, an important gentlemanly value.

Incidentally, in the days when Hamlet was first staged, borrowing was epidemic among the gentry, who sometimes neglected husbandry to the point where they were selling off their estates piece by piece to maintain an ostentatious lifestyle in London.               :icon_study:

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 11:28:24 PM
Here is a fuckin’ incredible formula;  (Banker Slave Avoidance = Save, Then Purchase).

Incredible indeed, because you can't save up for a Tuition that Inflates in cost faster than your income does.  WTF could save up $200K plus for a 4 year tuition for even ONE of their kids to go to Duke University and get a bullshit BA? Even if you are making $100K/year for the 18 years in between the birth of the child and entry to college you can;t save that much after taxes and living expenses, not to mention the medical insurance and bills and the new tires for the car....

So effectively what you are saying here is if you are J6P Middle Class, DOWNSIZE your ambition for your kid to at least have the same shot in life you did.  "I'm sorry son, I don't make enough money to send you to my Alma Mater of Duke University.  You can go Online and live in the Basement of our McMansion for 4 years and get a Degree from Kaplan Online University.  We can afford that."

Downward Mobility all the way under the StuchenDimwit Program!  LOL.   Ya can't afford College, don't take out a loan and don't go!  Work for 100 years flipping burgers at Mickey Ds, SAVE up enough, THEN go to College as a Centenarian!  LOL.

RE


I don't think Stuchenheimer quite gets the changing state of play, relative to the period his Dad and my Dad made their money. You can't even put your saved up cash in a savings account and cover inflation. In fact, unless you have REAMS of excess cash, it's no easy thing to invest in the Worlds Greatest Casino EVER - WS, and make enough to cover REAL inflation.
There is no way anyone except a bankster, sports or movie star can save to pay for and education for their kids today.

I hate to say anything good about the military, being a Libertarian it pains me to do so, but a few of my good friends received degrees from Harvard University and MIT through the GI Bill, which was utilized by many of the smart poor at the time, and some joined the service solely to get that valuable monetary benefit. Yes, I know shooting someone for an education sucks big time for sure, but most never saw combat and would have been drafted anyway.

 Guess it is possible to find something good anywhere if you look hard enough.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 06, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
OK, now that we have decent Mutual RESPECT for the varying opinions here on this topic, I am going to try to deal with some practical questions on the Education Problem.

A few good observations have been made here, for instance that maybe EVERYBODY shouldn't be going to College in the 1st Place?  Like if you have 1000 or under on your SAT, is Academia really the right place for you?  I went over the top and said you should have a Perfect Score of 1600 to get in, which of course was an exageration but meant to drive home a point.  At what level are you too STOOPID to deserve a chance at a sheepskin that is a ticket to Big Bucks?  Or at least it used to be anyhow.

Then there is the virtual impossibility of "Saving" for College and paying CASH for the Sheepskin, unless of course your Dad is a Pigman for whom the expense is Pocket Change and doesn't cost near what he spends on Hookers every year.

Then there is the Ethics of Banksters handing out these loans, when anybody with the LEAST bit of CFS can grasp that there is NO FUCKING WAY IN HELL most of them will ever be paid back. However,for the Bankster, long as Da Goobermint guarantees the loan, NO RISK!  Get the dimwit Student to sign on the dotted line and hand off the money, you charge 8% on the loan and you get the money from Da Fed at 2% (or less these days).

It is clearly all a scam, and clearly also skewed to serve the top tier of the society up and down the line.  Ya can't GET the big patycheck jobs without the right sheepskin from th right Universities, and you can't GO to those Unis unless either you come from Money big enough to pay for it (which obviously you yourself did not earn), or you take out the Mega Loans necessary to pay for it and go into Indentured Servitude.

Is there a SOLUTION to all this?  Not really under the current meme, but I do try to think about what might work at some indeterminate point in the future here.

First off, College isn't for everybody, but it shouldn't be Financial Means that is the arbiter of whether someone can go onward for further education.  Frankly, even High School isn't necessary for most people and most jobs in society even today.  However, if like in the Olden Days most people finished "school" by 6th Grade, this would mean you would have 13 year olds out there in the workforce competing for jobs.  Our society can't provide jobs for the 18+ crowd, so where will jobs come from for the 13 year olds here?

If we return to some type of Agrarian based economy, probably you could find "jobs" for the 13 year olds, Strapping a harness on 6 of them and using them to pull a Plow in place of Oxen we don;t have enough of to do this job, but man if you do that you really are going down the neo-feudal slave route, now aren't you?

I don't think people who really do not have an academic bent should be hanging out in school.  I taught school, and these kids don't want to be there and you couldn't drive knowledge into their skulls with a sledgehammer.  Waste of fucking time.

On the other hand, I don't see why just because you ARE smart that the degree and jobs you can get from that should pay any more than the jobs done by dummies.  It is JUST as necessary to have dummies mucking out the sewers for Health as it is to have Doctors in a society, in fact probably more important.  Why should sewer muckers be paid less than Doctors?

School should shrink down to just what is really necessary for the society to function, but the society should provide it for free to all qualified kids willing and able to learn on a competitive basis.

What will we do with the 6th Graders who aren't smart or motivated enough to do High School though?  From experience, I can estimate that it is at least half of them.  This is the toughest part of the problem.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 06, 2013, 11:39:20 PM

I’m starting to understand what Ashvin must feel.  You guys are gang-banging me.  My a-hole is starting to hurt. I don’t have a single supporter here?  I Am the Voice Crying in the Wilderness …. “Repent, Pay Up muthafuckers!”

Not just Watson.  Now you get a bit of a taste of what it was like for ME on TBP.

You TOUGH ENOUGH for it Stucky?  Can you answer all comers and never quit until the fucking Admin starts deleting your posting and rewriting it?  You're a New Jersey boy, not  boy from Hell's Kitchen in the Big Apple, so you probably are a Panty Waist.  We'll see.  LOL.

RE

See what it's like Stucky?

Only difference is you paint a bulls eye on your ass and stick it in air, poor Ashvin just sits quietly in the corner and answers questions that members put to him.  :laugh: ;D :D :laugh: :icon_mrgreen: :exp-grin: :exp-grin: ;D :pile:
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 12:02:21 AM
WHD

I was only kidding about feeling hurt. I’m a big guy – really big --- and I CAN take it. Lol And you, kind sir, certainly did not insult me.  Loving all the discussion here … lightweight banter compare to TBP.

I am a product of my upbringing. Aren’t we all?  Certain aspects I have rejected … others have stuck with me like stink on shit.  My dad believing that a debt is an obligation of a promise to repay is one that stuck.  He not only believed it, he lived it. He NEVER paid even one bill late in his entire life.  Quite a feat for a 90 year old man. In fact, the normal course of operations was/is to pay the bill the day it arrives in the mail.

You are not alone Stucky, my father was the EXACT same way and passed it on to me. Pretty hard to put nothing down on an expensive home and sign an adjustable rate mortgage when you are brought up that way. He is 93 and still here.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 07, 2013, 12:21:25 AM
Only difference is you paint a bulls eye on your ass and stick it in air, poor Ashvin just sits quietly in the corner and answers questions that members put to him.  :laugh: ;D :D :laugh: :icon_mrgreen: :exp-grin: :exp-grin: ;D :pile:

(http://shrink4men.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/bullseye-on-my-forehead1.jpg?w=221&h=284)
You are outta your fucking senile dementia riddled mind GO.  The minute Watson arrived here and painted himself as a World Class Expert on the Bible and Jesus Christ he painted a HUGE BULLSEYE on his forehead.  Sits quietly in a corner?  In a Pig's Eye.  He's nearly as fast a keyboardist as I am, and almost as smart as me too.  Just young and lacking in CFS.  LOL

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 12:21:38 AM
"I'm not the guy you perceived me to be at that time, I think you know that now." -----RE

Yup! If I ever make it up to Alaska, I'm looking you up, like it or not.  Have a beer with you and some bear's ass, or whatever it is you people eat up there.   I think that would be a hoot.

Now that's what I call a Laurel & Hardy Routine.  You are one funny bastard Stucky. ;D :icon_mrgreen: ;D :icon_mrgreen: :exp-grin:
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 07, 2013, 12:43:55 AM
Be kind to the Aging Gold Bug.

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rje0154l.jpg)

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jfa0335l.jpg)

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/ren/lowres/renn82l.jpg)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WigxWmT65Jk/Sm4liPSBgzI/AAAAAAAAfgc/zH-BdW0uubs/s800/Senile%20Cartoon.jpg)

OK, GO, bring on Alfred E. Newman.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 12:47:01 AM
Quote
He's nearly as fast a keyboardist as I am, and almost as smart as me too

How could anyone be almost as smart as you, my most wise and learned Dungeon Master?

You must be trying to be nice to Ashvin because his jealous classmates have been so unkind to him. An endeavor worthy of much praise and exclamation, I applaud you in your goodness, kindness, majestic attempt to quietly correct a wrong.

I always surmised you had a heart of Pure Gold, "Almost as Smart as You" What graciousness you display dear Dungeon Master.  :emthup: :laugh: :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 07, 2013, 12:53:21 AM
Quote
He's nearly as fast a keyboardist as I am, and almost as smart as me too

How could anyone be almost as smart as you, my most wise and learned Dungeon Master?

It's tough, granted.  Watson does make a good effort at it though.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 12:57:56 AM
Be kind to the Aging Gold Bug.

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rje0154l.jpg)

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jfa0335l.jpg)

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/ren/lowres/renn82l.jpg)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WigxWmT65Jk/Sm4liPSBgzI/AAAAAAAAfgc/zH-BdW0uubs/s800/Senile%20Cartoon.jpg)

OK, GO, bring on Alfred E. Newman.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
                                                         
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 01:12:35 AM
Quote
Be kind to the Aging Gold Bug.
                       
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: RE on January 07, 2013, 01:39:06 AM
Quote
Be kind to the Aging Gold Bug.
                       
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center

"It's the Kiss of DEATH from Mr. Goldfinger.  His Heart is Stone, he Loves only Gold."

http://www.youtube.com/v/Fy_PJODH3p0

Not a great choice of Avatars IMHO.

RE
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: g on January 07, 2013, 05:09:21 AM
Quote
Be kind to the Aging Gold Bug.
                       
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center
Auric Goldfinger at Senior Center

"It's the Kiss of DEATH from Mr. Goldfinger.  His Heart is Stone, he Loves only Gold."

http://www.youtube.com/v/Fy_PJODH3p0

Not a great choice of Avatars IMHO.

RE

Understandable Mr Paladin, it wouldn't fit you at all, a hired gun, with a fetish for heads in a bucket and bright  shiny Guillotine blades.  My hired GOON Oddjob would be much more appropriate for a gent such as you.   ;D

Oddjob Driving GO to DD for Breakfast.
Oddjob Driving GO to DD for Breakfast.
Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 07, 2013, 09:48:24 AM
In keeping w/ my other "solutions," one solution here is to not allow the use of credit for education at all ... cash only.

That would bring the cost down about 95% in an instant.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 07, 2013, 09:50:23 AM
1952?

Heck, they did that stuff at "Service Stations" into the 1970's.

I can remember seeing 19 cent a gallon gas.  I was just a wee pup.

Title: Re: The Official Student Loan Debt Slavery Thread
Post by: widgeon on January 07, 2013, 10:06:36 AM
Quote
Our society can't provide jobs for the 18+ crowd, so where will jobs come from for the 13 year olds here?


Back in the early 20th century, organized labor fought for reduced work hours; 12 hr day - 10 hour day - 8 hour day - and even in some instances succeeded in bringing 6 hour days to big corporations (e.g., Kellogg's).  One of the fruits of our technology and automation was supposed to be LESS hours of work.

Absolutely no one pays any attention to that any longer where it's somehow like the 11th Commandment that thou must give at least 8 hours a day to the corporation.

The corporations & gov love this because now the 8 hour day is used as a social control mechanism just like food stamps ... idle time is the anarchist's workspace, etc.


Title: PhDs on Food Stamps
Post by: RE on January 09, 2013, 12:17:56 AM
Hat Tip to Zero Hedge.

RE

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/Americas-PhDs-Food-Stamps-800.jpg)