Doomstead Diner Menu => Geopolitics => Topic started by: RE on September 20, 2018, 12:25:53 AM

Title: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 20, 2018, 12:25:53 AM
It was worse in Stalinist Russia?  Really?

R

Why Police Kill So Often
September 19, 2018 branford perry

(https://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/IndispensableReads27.png)

HELP ENLIGHTEN YOUR FELLOWS. BE SURE TO PASS THIS ON. SURVIVAL DEPENDS ON IT.

by CARL FINAMORE
The picture is becoming clearer each day how policing in the United States is so brutally more violent than any other industrialized country.
These demonstrators are never interviewed in depth, just passing, almost incomprehensible snippets.

(https://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/StopPoliceBrutality.jpg)
The FBI reports 404 civilians were killed by police in 2011. All were listed as “justifiable homicides.” Under more intense questioning, it was then revealed that figures are not actually kept for “unjustified” police murders and, remarkably, their statistics rely exclusively on incidents self-reported by the cops.

Nonetheless, even with the problematic figures at hand that are surely underestimated, the number of people killed by police stands starkly apart and darkly atop the rest of the world.

The differences are staggering.

For example, in contrast to the FBI’s numbers of 404 killed by police in 2011, Australian police killed six people, police in England and Wales killed two people and German police killed six.

In England, one person was killed by police in 2014 and none in 2013 with only three reported incidents of cops even firing their weapons. In Germany during those years, zero police killings.

These national trends are not flukes.

Looked at locally, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, police killed 26 people during 2010-2014. The southwestern city had, with one percent of England’s population of 52 million, more than six times the number of fatal police shootings.

Why Police Violence?
To get an answer, let’s look at what is the same and what is different between the United States and European countries.

First, let’s dispense with the notion that the top rulers in the States are more violent than their upper-crust cousins across the pond. Absolutely untrue.

The French in Algeria acted like barbarian colonizers, as did the British in Northern Ireland. No better than the U.S. in Vietnam around the same time. More recently in the Middle East, it’s clear both Europe and the U.S. conduct murderous operations in total unison to protect their property and profit interests.

Now, let’s look at some other explanations for the extreme police violence in America.

Some say it results from cops not being screened, not being trained and not being supervised. This argument is extremely weak because it focuses on correcting individual behavior of a few “bad apples”.

In fact, contrariwise, it has been more credibly argued that racial discrimination is deeply entrenched in the institutions of society and in the policies of government.

Others blame militarization of local police departments for the excessive force while still others fault high rates of incarceration in this country which, true enough, represent almost 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the entire world.

Without a doubt, the cumulative evidence definitely shows criminalization of an entire section of the population with particular targeting of Black and Latino youth, especially for minor drug infractions.

However, regardless of the merits of some of the arguments above, I do not believe any adequately explain the blood-stained history of police violence in this country and why our record is so vastly worse than other industrialized countries.

Different Traditions, Consciousness & Organization
Essentially, I argue there is more extreme repression in the U.S. primarily because of our extremely racist and genocidal historical record, because of the high residual level of racial division and because of the low level of political organization of the working class.

The very formation of this country was rooted in genocide against indigenous people and the enslavement of millions of African peoples. Our heralded pioneer expansion westward and into the southwest in the 19th century also involved the very violent forced land expropriation of Mexican residents, some of whom were settled on the lands for centuries.

After the Civil War, extreme cruelty continued to suppress the former slaves and this, as we know, lasted until appalling Jim Crow segregationist laws were torn down through the work of the massive civil rights movement only some 50 years ago.

Such extensive brutality against peoples of color is what truly defines the much-touted “American Exceptionalism” and it has affected and infected the consciousness of the white population to this very day.

According to current polls, a large percentage of whites still disbelieves discrimination against people of color even exists. Worse, one canvass recently showed that most whites believe there is more “anti-white” discrimination than bias against Blacks. Incredible.

It is important to note that the deeply troubling formative experiences of white American settlers, as they explored and conquered, was absent in the more established nation states of Europe.

In effect, the rulers of Europe offshored their violent ways to their colonies where, as I have just argued, horrific vestiges remain deeply encrusted in the backward, racist prejudices of the white population.

By contrast, in Europe during the formative years of 19th and 20thcentury industrialization, workers organized mass labor, socialist and communist parties that created a strong class identity and an emphasis on collective action.

Consequently, this led to stronger social bonds that ultimately united the population in common pursuits for labor rights, government health care, more vacation time, social security, child care and maternity leave; reforms far superior to anything in the U.S.

Because of the absence of America’s violent traditions that pitted working people against each other, the European working class was better able to unite and more effectively struggle on both social and economic issues which, I believe, also explains the more measured restraint of their rulers against massively popular desires for reform.

Unfortunately, in the last 25 years, this solidarity consciousness has steadily declined and, consequently, has resulted in significant setbacks eroding social programs and the standard of living.

It was during this period that the largely nationally homogenous European white working class was also confronted for the first time by large numbers of immigrants of color. Regrettably, racism against the new arrivals has fractured the once successful and powerful national unity of the working classes.

We can expect more police violence directed at immigrants, I suspect, as the native European working class trends more like the divided working class in America.

As previously mentioned, the U.S. working class has always been separated by race and, therefore, has neither enjoyed the unity necessary to defend its most oppressed sectors nor enjoyed the substantial social gains of the European workers that can only be produced by a united movement.

This is the high price we pay for our ignorance and is a repudiation of the false notion that white workers somehow gain an advantage from their racist “white-skin privilege.”

There are no privileges that accrue from division of the working class except those that are solely advantageous to the bosses.

Disorganized Rebellion Becomes a Riot
When the most oppressed sections of the working class can no longer tolerate degrading social conditions, resistance inevitably flares up.

But, because oppressed communities of color are politically isolated and left to fend for themselves without support from organized labor or from the white majority, their frustration sometimes explodes into disorganized, individual acts of random violence which then makes the community even more vulnerable to police attacks.

This has happened in both the U.S. and Europe.

For example, authorities ruthlessly repressed the 2011 rebellion in London’s Tottenham immigrant neighborhood. Over 3100 arrests were made after a fatal shooting by police of a local resident triggered large protests.

I maintain that Tottenham residents were more endangered and police assault against them more escalated because they were isolated politically and socially from the rest of British society and particularly from the rest of the working class and its organizations.

This partitioning mirrors precisely the situation of people of color in the States.

Without question, the same sharp decline of divided U.S. labor awaits the European working class if their unity is further eroded.

Stand Up & Stand Guard
Do not expect America’s elite to change their stripes and offer a prescription for reducing police violence.

We are the ones who must change – our solidarity, our consciousness and our organization must be strengthened to end the segregation of those most oppressed among us who suffer the severest forms of police repression for rebelling against conditions few would consider livable.

There are vivid examples in our history of how militant labor fought to stay united against policies designed to pick off more vulnerable sections of the working class.

For example, Teamsters in Minneapolis during the 1930s depression patrolled the streets to move evicted poor families with their belongings strewn on the sidewalk back into their homes. Again, very conscious of being divided, the same union actively worked to unite with the unemployed, joining mass picket lines of the demanding more jobs.

Unions on the east coast and the midwest along with the International Longshore union (ILWU) on the west coast during the same period took similar militant solidarity actions in support of victims of racist courtroom frame-ups and physical assaults, all designed to keep the working class united.

With this legacy in mind, ILWU Local 10 members in the 1970s stood 24-hour guard outside the home of a Black family in Concord, Calif. that was being terrorized by Ku Klux Klan cross burnings on their lawn.

Continuing this honorable tradition, the same union conducted a May 1, 2015 shut down of the Port of Oakland in support of “Black Lives Matter.”

And, in my own city, the San Francisco Labor Council recently supported mass picketing of homes hoping to prevent “predatory loan” evictions that targeted homeowners in the city’s besieged Black community.

These are singular acts of political courage that reveal the true heart of labor solidarity. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

Contingents of organized labor should take their example and stand up and stand guard whenever people of color experience repression that otherwise would surely never be tolerated by whites.

In fact, labor in America has made its greatest accomplishments only when the gaping racial divide was breeched such as during the massively successful steel and auto union organizing drives in the 1930s.

Protection and justice for a minority can only be achieved through action by the majority, united by a common sense of fairness under the time-honored emblem of “an injury to one, is an injury to all.”

To do otherwise is to limit us all from making social gains denied us by a power structure contemptuously looking down upon a people divided as they imperially tower over us all.
 
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
 Carl Finamore is Machinist Local 1781 delegate to the San Francisco Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He can be reached at local1781@yahoo.com
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 20, 2018, 01:50:35 AM
I wish to hell you would post links with your stories. Makes it a pain in the ass to share these on social media.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 20, 2018, 03:33:51 AM
I wish to hell you would post links with your stories. Makes it a pain in the ass to share these on social media.

I do post links as a regular practice.  Once in a while I forget.  I'm not perfect.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/09/19/why-police-kill-so-often/ (https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/09/19/why-police-kill-so-often/)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 20, 2018, 06:09:06 AM
It was worse in Stalinist Russia?  Really?

R

Why Police Kill So Often
September 19, 2018 branford perry

(https://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/IndispensableReads27.png)

HELP ENLIGHTEN YOUR FELLOWS. BE SURE TO PASS THIS ON. SURVIVAL DEPENDS ON IT.

by CARL FINAMORE
The picture is becoming clearer each day how policing in the United States is so brutally more violent than any other industrialized country.
These demonstrators are never interviewed in depth, just passing, almost incomprehensible snippets.

(https://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/StopPoliceBrutality.jpg)
The FBI reports 404 civilians were killed by police in 2011. All were listed as “justifiable homicides.” Under more intense questioning, it was then revealed that figures are not actually kept for “unjustified” police murders and, remarkably, their statistics rely exclusively on incidents self-reported by the cops.

Nonetheless, even with the problematic figures at hand that are surely underestimated, the number of people killed by police stands starkly apart and darkly atop the rest of the world.

The differences are staggering.

For example, in contrast to the FBI’s numbers of 404 killed by police in 2011, Australian police killed six people, police in England and Wales killed two people and German police killed six.

In England, one person was killed by police in 2014 and none in 2013 with only three reported incidents of cops even firing their weapons. In Germany during those years, zero police killings.

These national trends are not flukes.

Looked at locally, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, police killed 26 people during 2010-2014. The southwestern city had, with one percent of England’s population of 52 million, more than six times the number of fatal police shootings.

Why Police Violence?
To get an answer, let’s look at what is the same and what is different between the United States and European countries.

First, let’s dispense with the notion that the top rulers in the States are more violent than their upper-crust cousins across the pond. Absolutely untrue.

The French in Algeria acted like barbarian colonizers, as did the British in Northern Ireland. No better than the U.S. in Vietnam around the same time. More recently in the Middle East, it’s clear both Europe and the U.S. conduct murderous operations in total unison to protect their property and profit interests.

Now, let’s look at some other explanations for the extreme police violence in America.

Some say it results from cops not being screened, not being trained and not being supervised. This argument is extremely weak because it focuses on correcting individual behavior of a few “bad apples”.

In fact, contrariwise, it has been more credibly argued that racial discrimination is deeply entrenched in the institutions of society and in the policies of government.

Others blame militarization of local police departments for the excessive force while still others fault high rates of incarceration in this country which, true enough, represent almost 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the entire world.

Without a doubt, the cumulative evidence definitely shows criminalization of an entire section of the population with particular targeting of Black and Latino youth, especially for minor drug infractions.

However, regardless of the merits of some of the arguments above, I do not believe any adequately explain the blood-stained history of police violence in this country and why our record is so vastly worse than other industrialized countries.

Different Traditions, Consciousness & Organization
Essentially, I argue there is more extreme repression in the U.S. primarily because of our extremely racist and genocidal historical record, because of the high residual level of racial division and because of the low level of political organization of the working class.

The very formation of this country was rooted in genocide against indigenous people and the enslavement of millions of African peoples. Our heralded pioneer expansion westward and into the southwest in the 19th century also involved the very violent forced land expropriation of Mexican residents, some of whom were settled on the lands for centuries.

After the Civil War, extreme cruelty continued to suppress the former slaves and this, as we know, lasted until appalling Jim Crow segregationist laws were torn down through the work of the massive civil rights movement only some 50 years ago.

Such extensive brutality against peoples of color is what truly defines the much-touted “American Exceptionalism” and it has affected and infected the consciousness of the white population to this very day.

According to current polls, a large percentage of whites still disbelieves discrimination against people of color even exists. Worse, one canvass recently showed that most whites believe there is more “anti-white” discrimination than bias against Blacks. Incredible.

It is important to note that the deeply troubling formative experiences of white American settlers, as they explored and conquered, was absent in the more established nation states of Europe.

In effect, the rulers of Europe offshored their violent ways to their colonies where, as I have just argued, horrific vestiges remain deeply encrusted in the backward, racist prejudices of the white population.

By contrast, in Europe during the formative years of 19th and 20thcentury industrialization, workers organized mass labor, socialist and communist parties that created a strong class identity and an emphasis on collective action.

Consequently, this led to stronger social bonds that ultimately united the population in common pursuits for labor rights, government health care, more vacation time, social security, child care and maternity leave; reforms far superior to anything in the U.S.

Because of the absence of America’s violent traditions that pitted working people against each other, the European working class was better able to unite and more effectively struggle on both social and economic issues which, I believe, also explains the more measured restraint of their rulers against massively popular desires for reform.

Unfortunately, in the last 25 years, this solidarity consciousness has steadily declined and, consequently, has resulted in significant setbacks eroding social programs and the standard of living.

It was during this period that the largely nationally homogenous European white working class was also confronted for the first time by large numbers of immigrants of color. Regrettably, racism against the new arrivals has fractured the once successful and powerful national unity of the working classes.

We can expect more police violence directed at immigrants, I suspect, as the native European working class trends more like the divided working class in America.

As previously mentioned, the U.S. working class has always been separated by race and, therefore, has neither enjoyed the unity necessary to defend its most oppressed sectors nor enjoyed the substantial social gains of the European workers that can only be produced by a united movement.

This is the high price we pay for our ignorance and is a repudiation of the false notion that white workers somehow gain an advantage from their racist “white-skin privilege.”

There are no privileges that accrue from division of the working class except those that are solely advantageous to the bosses.

Disorganized Rebellion Becomes a Riot
When the most oppressed sections of the working class can no longer tolerate degrading social conditions, resistance inevitably flares up.

But, because oppressed communities of color are politically isolated and left to fend for themselves without support from organized labor or from the white majority, their frustration sometimes explodes into disorganized, individual acts of random violence which then makes the community even more vulnerable to police attacks.

This has happened in both the U.S. and Europe.

For example, authorities ruthlessly repressed the 2011 rebellion in London’s Tottenham immigrant neighborhood. Over 3100 arrests were made after a fatal shooting by police of a local resident triggered large protests.

I maintain that Tottenham residents were more endangered and police assault against them more escalated because they were isolated politically and socially from the rest of British society and particularly from the rest of the working class and its organizations.

This partitioning mirrors precisely the situation of people of color in the States.

Without question, the same sharp decline of divided U.S. labor awaits the European working class if their unity is further eroded.

Stand Up & Stand Guard
Do not expect America’s elite to change their stripes and offer a prescription for reducing police violence.

We are the ones who must change – our solidarity, our consciousness and our organization must be strengthened to end the segregation of those most oppressed among us who suffer the severest forms of police repression for rebelling against conditions few would consider livable.

There are vivid examples in our history of how militant labor fought to stay united against policies designed to pick off more vulnerable sections of the working class.

For example, Teamsters in Minneapolis during the 1930s depression patrolled the streets to move evicted poor families with their belongings strewn on the sidewalk back into their homes. Again, very conscious of being divided, the same union actively worked to unite with the unemployed, joining mass picket lines of the demanding more jobs.

Unions on the east coast and the midwest along with the International Longshore union (ILWU) on the west coast during the same period took similar militant solidarity actions in support of victims of racist courtroom frame-ups and physical assaults, all designed to keep the working class united.

With this legacy in mind, ILWU Local 10 members in the 1970s stood 24-hour guard outside the home of a Black family in Concord, Calif. that was being terrorized by Ku Klux Klan cross burnings on their lawn.

Continuing this honorable tradition, the same union conducted a May 1, 2015 shut down of the Port of Oakland in support of “Black Lives Matter.”

And, in my own city, the San Francisco Labor Council recently supported mass picketing of homes hoping to prevent “predatory loan” evictions that targeted homeowners in the city’s besieged Black community.

These are singular acts of political courage that reveal the true heart of labor solidarity. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

Contingents of organized labor should take their example and stand up and stand guard whenever people of color experience repression that otherwise would surely never be tolerated by whites.

In fact, labor in America has made its greatest accomplishments only when the gaping racial divide was breeched such as during the massively successful steel and auto union organizing drives in the 1930s.

Protection and justice for a minority can only be achieved through action by the majority, united by a common sense of fairness under the time-honored emblem of “an injury to one, is an injury to all.”

To do otherwise is to limit us all from making social gains denied us by a power structure contemptuously looking down upon a people divided as they imperially tower over us all.
 
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
 Carl Finamore is Machinist Local 1781 delegate to the San Francisco Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He can be reached at local1781@yahoo.com

One might also make the case that police kill more here because US criminals tend to be really well armed these days (much better than just about anywhere else), and that the streets are full of crazy people with guns, the same people we'd have locked up in the loony bin when I was a kid.

The race issue is a valid issue, sure. I do not disagree there. But... you should admit, at the same time, that the police constantly deal with organized gangs in our urban ghettos who have lots of guns and kill people everyday, and that the violence by criminals also has a racial bias.

And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

This article is another attempt to make a complex problem really simple. One-sided, in my view, as all Greanville Post articles are.

Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 20, 2018, 06:21:02 AM
This article is another attempt to make a complex problem really simple. One-sided, in my view, as all Greanville Post articles are.

What, and WSJ articles aren't "one-sided" also?  ZH is not one sided?  Brandon "Lexington & Concord" Smith isn't one sided?  Jimbo Quinn is not "one sided"?  There is no requirement that a blog or website or newzpaper has to present "both sides" equally.  That is the Both Siderism that Surly complains about all the time.

I don't agree with Patrice Greanville all the time, but he can present his POV as he sees fit.  When you own a website, you can do that.  That's why I run the Diner.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 20, 2018, 06:22:48 AM
No problem. And I'll keep pointing out the bias, if you don't mind.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 20, 2018, 06:29:25 AM
No problem. And I'll keep pointing out the bias, if you don't mind.

I don't mind, as long as it is done Politely with no Ad Hom.  :icon_sunny:  Otherwise, I will squash it like a bug. lol.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 20, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

I would suggest that this phenomenon looks very different depending on the amount of melanin one is wearing. Gangs notwithstanding, I'll bet you a Philando Castile and raise you two Alton Sterlings that white men do not have to worry about summary execution by cop as black men.

Race has been a convenient way to divide and conquer in this country ever since the aftermath of Bacon's rebellion in this country. Nathaniel Bacon was a Virginia landowner who wanted the British to take hostile moves against the neighboring Indians so he (and others) could expand their lands. Gov. Berkeley demurred, declining to buy himself a fresh new Indian war on the western frontier, form which he and his cronies would not directly benefit, and for which he'd have to answer with the home office. So Bacon organized his own militia, consisting of white and black indentured servants and enslaved black people, who joined in exchange for freedom, and attacked nearby tribes.

IN the fullness of time, Bacon died of a fever, the rebellion was suppressed. But Virginia’s wealthy planters carefully noted that a rebel militia that united white and black servants and slaves had destroyed the Jamestown. These swells and grandees  were deeply fearful of the multiracial alliance of indentured servants and slaves. The last thing they wanted was more uprisings of a similar type.

To protect their superior status and economic position, the planters abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. And differences in Virginia laws between  “white” and “black” inhabitants began to appear. By permanently enslaving Virginians of African descent and giving poor white indentured servants and farmers some new rights and status, they hoped to separate the two groups and make it less likely that they would unite again in rebellion. They enacted laws decreeing that people of African descent were hereditary slaves, and thus property... so when Roger Taney said in Dred Scott that "a negro has no rights which a white man was bound to respect," he had 150 years of English and colonial law at his back.

Which is why, hundreds of years later, President Lyndon B. Johnson could say, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Johnson, as a son of Texas, understood the politics of racism from the inside, saw it in part as a ploy to divide and conquer.

Then as now.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 20, 2018, 10:42:49 AM
And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

I would suggest that this phenomenon looks very different depending on the amount of melanin one is wearing. Gangs notwithstanding, I'll bet you a Philando Castile and raise you two Alton Sterlings that white men do not have to worry about summary execution by cop as black men.

Race has been a convenient way to divide and conquer in this country ever since the aftermath of Bacon's rebellion in this country. Nathaniel Bacon was a Virginia landowner who wanted the British to take hostile moves against the neighboring Indians so he (and others) could expand their lands. Gov. Berkeley demurred, declining to buy himself a fresh new Indian war on the western frontier, form which he and his cronies would not directly benefit, and for which he'd have to answer with the home office. So Bacon organized his own militia, consisting of white and black indentured servants and enslaved black people, who joined in exchange for freedom, and attacked nearby tribes.

IN the fullness of time, Bacon died of a fever, the rebellion was suppressed. But Virginia’s wealthy planters carefully noted that a rebel militia that united white and black servants and slaves had destroyed the Jamestown. These swells and grandees  were deeply fearful of the multiracial alliance of indentured servants and slaves. The last thing they wanted was more uprisings of a similar type.

To protect their superior status and economic position, the planters abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. And differences in Virginia laws between  “white” and “black” inhabitants began to appear. By permanently enslaving Virginians of African descent and giving poor white indentured servants and farmers some new rights and status, they hoped to separate the two groups and make it less likely that they would unite again in rebellion. They enacted laws decreeing that people of African descent were hereditary slaves, and thus property... so when Roger Taney said in Dred Scott that "a negro has no rights which a white man was bound to respect," he had 150 years of English and colonial law at his back.

Which is why, hundreds of years later, President Lyndon B. Johnson could say, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Johnson, as a son of Texas, understood the politics of racism from the inside, saw it in part as a ploy to divide and conquer.

Then as now.

As usual, you're conveniently missing my point.

The point is that violence against black people by police (or by white people)  does not, in itself, mean that white people are not sometimes discriminated against by a system that has been engaged in active social engineering designed to level the playing field (since 1965), so that minorities are not themselves discriminated against in the job market. That article makes it seem like they're mutually exclusive phenomena. They most certainly are NOT.

Check out how many job openings there are for VP's of Diversity and Inclusion. It's a growth market. Hundreds of positions available, apparently. The link below is just one of many such links. I'm sure it isn't completely accurate, but there are many others like it, and I'm persuaded the fake jobs are out there for the right minority applicants.


https://www.indeed.com/q-Vice-President-Diversity-jobs.html (https://www.indeed.com/q-Vice-President-Diversity-jobs.html)



Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 20, 2018, 05:33:31 PM
Quote
As usual, you're conveniently missing my point.

Yeah, I'm always missing your point, because it's based on structural racism. Why don't you try taking mine. You refuse to acknowledge or concede that you benefit from melanin deprivation, pointing to your own hardscrabble roots (Nobody ever gave me nothin!, uttered as sincerely as the most abject Trumpanzee).

Guess what, ace? All of us worked hard. No one here is living off trust funds. All I ever inherited was a work ethic. If you're born white and male in America, you're born on third base, no matter how poor your circumstances. Failure to get that means a failure of both empathy and imagination.

Tell me what the bleeding fuck job listings for VPs of Diversity hoo-hah have to do with anything that I wrote.
Feel free to go third rail on this shit, but you'll do it denying 300 years of history.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 20, 2018, 06:30:20 PM
You can't speak the honest truth anymore and not be labeled a racist, can you?  I have no real agenda here other than to reject simplistic thinking and dogma.

I'm not talking about white pride or white supremacy, or white domination of downtrodden brown people. I'm talking about winners and losers, and how the attempt at legislated racial equality has benefited some poor people at the expense of other poor people.

None of these groups was ever powerful. The poor whites and the poor blacks and the poor immigrants have been at each others throats all along. It was true in Jim Crow days and it's very obviously still true. We haven't solved it, but we've created a ton of new resentment.

I'm talking about how our country, through a well-intentioned experiment in achieving racial justice, has created a system that was quickly gamed into one where points are awarded for being in a special group. It started with blacks, then it was women, and then native Americans, and now gays.....everybody says they want to be special so they can get EQUAL rights...but it really means so they can get some special consideration because of their particular group.....some more points in the game.

But you can't keep going down that road, it leads to an absurd conclusion.

Pretty soon the only people working at the Post Office are Muslim black lesbians who are asylum seekers from Timbuktu.

This is a problem. It isn't so much a problem for me. I'm doing fine. It's a problem for laid-off construction workers shooting up fentanyl in the trailer park and wearing MAGA hats.

If you wonder why there is a groundswell of support for an authoritarian, racist POTUS, and we why stand at the brink of fascism, consider that what I'm trying to talk about might be part of the equation.

I'm not denying structural racism. Nor am I denying garden variety racism, or saying I don't think people should be treated fairly, or even that all whites aren't born on third base (although I know better). I'm saying that what we have now is a failed experiment in racial nuclear fusion, and it's apt to reach a critical mass soon.

Ignore this, all you well meaning liberal Americans, at your own peril.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: monsta666 on September 20, 2018, 07:06:30 PM
Eddie I don't know why it is so difficult to understand that white people are granted certain advantages. Look at the boards of any major corporation and it will be dominated by white men. This is not some coincidence or due to the fact white men are the hardest workers in the planet. They come from a position of privilege so they get more opportunities for progression. All things being equal they tend to get the job over women or other ethnic minorities. Sure there are exceptions but quite often the exceptions are newsworthy because of the fact it does not commonly happen. Now saying all that one cannot diminish the success of a white person because having a high paying job is difficult regardless of what race or sex. But what can't be denied is that we do not live in a society where equal opportunities are afforded to all. People may have opinions on the matter and the overall trend is generally in the right direction but we are not even close to the point we can say society is fair. Yes some of the measures taken can seem unfair but I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where white people are at a disadvantage. It is far easier to find statistics that back the theory that minorities struggle to get higher paying jobs than the other way round which leads me to conclude that some of these stories are overblown.

Now another thing that has not been mentioned too much but is significant when it comes to white privilege is it does not operate simply on creating extra opportunities; it impacts your relationship with the police and criminal justice system. If you are black you are more likely to be arrested for the same crime and when sentenced the chances of being found guilty are greater1 (https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/) and the terms served are more severe when you are black2 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/black-men-sentenced-time-white-men-crime-study/story?id=51203491). Plus even if after incarceration the chances of finding subsequent employment is lower if you are black. All these factors points towards racism being systemic in nature and since this can be proven with statistics is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact which shows that race does matter.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 04:27:15 AM
Eddie I don't know why it is so difficult to understand that white people are granted certain advantages. Look at the boards of any major corporation and it will be dominated by white men. This is not some coincidence or due to the fact white men are the hardest workers in the planet. They come from a position of privilege so they get more opportunities for progression. All things being equal they tend to get the job over women or other ethnic minorities. Sure there are exceptions but quite often the exceptions are newsworthy because of the fact it does not commonly happen. Now saying all that one cannot diminish the success of a white person because having a high paying job is difficult regardless of what race or sex. But what can't be denied is that we do not live in a society where equal opportunities are afforded to all. People may have opinions on the matter and the overall trend is generally in the right direction but we are not even close to the point we can say society is fair. Yes some of the measures taken can seem unfair but I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where white people are at a disadvantage. It is far easier to find statistics that back the theory that minorities struggle to get higher paying jobs than the other way round which leads me to conclude that some of these stories are overblown.

Now another thing that has not been mentioned too much but is significant when it comes to white privilege is it does not operate simply on creating extra opportunities; it impacts your relationship with the police and criminal justice system. If you are black you are more likely to be arrested for the same crime and when sentenced the chances of being found guilty are greater1 (https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/) and the terms served are more severe when you are black2 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/black-men-sentenced-time-white-men-crime-study/story?id=51203491). Plus even if after incarceration the chances of finding subsequent employment is lower if you are black. All these factors points towards racism being systemic in nature and since this can be proven with statistics is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact which shows that race does matter.

Monsta, with all due respect, this is not about white privilege. I recognize that what you and Surly call white privilege does exist.

But boards of corporations, racist make-up notwithstanding, are not where Trump is building his base. None of the white people impacted by our race policies here are candidates to sit on corporate boards. White privilege does not flow equally to all whites.

There is a type of glass ceiling racism in the corporate world, which greatly involves privilege, but it isn't there just  because those people are white.

Those people are not the ones who will sign up to be willing Nazi storm troopers.

The storm troopers  are going to come from the white underclass, which are also the ones who are embracing the open racism and racial divisiveness that has reared its ugly head in the past three or four years.

And this problem, while more visible here, perhaps, is not unknown where you live either.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/15/bbc-racist-diversity-white-working-class-tory-mp (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/15/bbc-racist-diversity-white-working-class-tory-mp)

Smaller pie, with those at the top getting a bigger and bigger piece, while trying to put a little grease on the squeakiest wheel. Blacks have been a squeaky wheel, as have other would-be special groups. But now the working-class whites, who are a much bigger wheel demographically, are getting very squeaky.

As what's left of the pie gets smaller and smaller, the less a minor grease job works. If those at the bottom are all in crisis, then they will fight among themselves, and push and shove...the white working class is ready for a new Hitler. It might not be Trump, but they will find one.

Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Agent Graves on September 21, 2018, 07:03:03 AM
What you seem to be missing Eddie, is that the only demographic with a declining life expectancy - po white - might not get to be on a Fortune 500 board of directors, but is still far less likely to get shot by a racist cop.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 21, 2018, 07:49:02 AM
Quote from: Eddie
I recognize that what you and Surly call white privilege does exist.

But boards of corporations, racist make-up notwithstanding, are not where Trump is building his base. None of the white people impacted by our race policies here are candidates to sit on corporate boards. White privilege does not flow equally to all whites.

There is a type of glass ceiling racism in the corporate world, which greatly involves privilege, but it isn't there just  because those people are white.

FWIW, Eddie, I think what I see as white privilege DOES flow equally to white people. I confers a certain freedom from, say, summary execution. Which seems to be worth more and more these days.

I think what you are talking about is CLASS. And it is that distinction from which the elites try mightily to distract us, using race as a primary cudgel.

As soon as people talk about reassessing priorities or interfering with the neoliberal order (privatization), they get demonized. They've come hammer-and-tong for Ocasio-Cortez,  the Washington Post’s provides plenty of negative coverage of  Ben Jealous, running against Republican Larry Hogan for Maryland Governor. And on the border, the State Department is denying passports to a substantial number of Latinos with official U.S. birth certificates. Neither you nor I is going to suffer that indignity. Every time a common sense idea opposing the continued looting is floated, the elites nod and smile, and their hired stenographers spring into action. It is as predicable as sunrise.

The elites will be perfectly content for most of us to die off, especially after the machines are in place to assure their comfort.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 08:00:43 AM
Go back and read what I wrote in my first comment. It is certainly true that black people are treated unkindly by police. And it's true that part of that equation is what Surly refers to as institutional racism.

But there is way more to it, and that part is ignored by the social justice warriors.

Cops deal with lots of black people in some really, really bad neighborhoods. Most of these black people are just decent hardworking people....but a measurable number are well-armed gangbangers, thugs and killers. Thieves and low level drug dealers. Bad alcoholics and crazy people who talk to themselves in angry voices.

This creates a high fear level with cops, who sometimes die young trying to do their jobs in these neighborhoods. Fear leads to an attitude of "the best defense is an overwhelming demonstration of force"...Tasers and shooting from the hip.  There is some racism, sure. Cops are recruited from the working class, and the white ones are often racists. So are a lot of hispanics. But even black cops come down hard on the denizens of the ghetto. It's about self-preservation and commanding respect from bad actors who only understand force.

And these days nobody likes cops. I don't. I got stopped and got a DWI, which I beat in court. It only cost me $12,000 USD, and a shitload of my time. The criminal justice system is a source of revenue for the government.

Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 08:05:36 AM
Quote from: Eddie
I recognize that what you and Surly call white privilege does exist.

But boards of corporations, racist make-up notwithstanding, are not where Trump is building his base. None of the white people impacted by our race policies here are candidates to sit on corporate boards. White privilege does not flow equally to all whites.

There is a type of glass ceiling racism in the corporate world, which greatly involves privilege, but it isn't there just  because those people are white.

FWIW, Eddie, I think what I see as white privilege DOES flow equally to white people. I confers a certain freedom from, say, summary execution. Which seems to be worth more and more these days.

I think what you are talking about is CLASS. And it is that distinction from which the elites try mightily to distract us, using race as a primary cudgel.

As soon as people talk about reassessing priorities or interfering with the neoliberal order (privatization), these people get demonized. They've come hammer-and-tong for Ocasio-Cortez,  the Washington Post’s provides plenty of negative coverage of  Ben Jealous, running against Republican Larry Hogan for Maryland Governor. Every time a common sense idea opposing the continued looting is floated, the elites nod and smile, and their hired stenographers spring into action. It is as predicable as sunrise.

The elites will be perfectly content for most of us to die off, especially after the machines are in place to assure their comfort.

Class struggles and race struggles are deeply intertwined, but a white guy wearing an Izod and Italian loafers who gets stopped by cops driving a new Tesla is not treated like a tattooed white guy who gets stopped driving a clapped out Honda Civic with a cannabis decal. I'm busy, but I'm going to come back to his one. I want to argue.



Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 21, 2018, 08:25:47 AM
I'm going to come back to his one. I want to argue.

You came to the right place for that.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 21, 2018, 08:28:17 AM
Go back and read what I wrote in my first comment. It is certainly true that black people are treated unkindly by police. And it's true that part of that equation is what Surly refers to as institutional racism.

But there is way more to it, and that part is ignored by the social justice warriors.

Cops deal with lots of black people in some really, really bad neighborhoods. Most of these black people are just decent hardworking people....but a measurable number are well-armed gangbangers, thugs and killers. Thieves and low level drug dealers. Bad alcoholics and crazy people who talk to themselves in angry voices.

This creates a high fear level with cops, who sometimes die young trying to do their jobs in these neighborhoods. Fear leads to an attitude of "the best defense is an overwhelming demonstration of force"...Tasers and shooting from the hip.  There is some racism, sure. Cops are recruited from the working class, and the white ones are often racists. So are a lot of hispanics. But even black cops come down hard on the denizens of the ghetto. It's about self-preservation and commanding respect from bad actors who only understand force.

And these days nobody likes cops. I don't. I got stopped and got a DWI, which I beat in court. It only cost me $12,000 USD, and a shitload of my time. The criminal justice system is a source of revenue for the government.

No argument at all.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZteDlU0GXfs

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ls-868BO1dc
This one is apparently for criminal jaywalking. Some serious gangbanging there.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ddC2Bs9ZIjU
And this one is just in time for the Dr. Blasey ford hearings.

Holders of property always have excuses for thug cops. This entire government is designed for the protection and preservation of property and its holders. Which is why the guy driving a Tesla gets a pass, and Neck Tattoo gets tazed.

That's simple. "Equal justice under the law" comes down to just how much justice you can afford.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 21, 2018, 08:29:50 AM
And it's not just for white cops anymore, as well.

http://www.youtube.com/v/hip1YYYgTvE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 21, 2018, 08:35:08 AM
Holders of property always have excuses for thug cops. This entire government is designed for the protection and preservation of property and its holders. Which is why the guy driving a Tesla gets a pass, and Neck Tattoo gets tazed.

That's simple. "Equal justice under the law" comes down to just how much justice you can afford.

Quote of the Month!

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 08:38:26 AM
So I want to try to make one more small point, but I think it's a critical point.

What white liberals THINK about white privilege does NOT matter. You think all white people are equally white privileged. I get that.

To some degree you're probably right. I would argue that there are plenty of nuances. Either way, we aren't the real problem, you and I.  I'm not shooting black people or going to white power rallies, and neither are you. We are both respectful to pretty much everyone.

But it matters much MORE what the white redneck underclass thinks, as far as how this whole racial injustice thing you're so concerned about works out in the long run. If you don't think the white underclass is not really angry about Affirmative Action and the other perceived special treatment given to ethnic minorities and all the "special" people, you are delusional.

And what THEY think is what is going to propel us (or already has propelled us) into fascism. Believe it. It's happening.

Europe has been, for the last generation, somewhat insulated from this...but that is changing rapidly. I knew it would.  The perceived greater acceptance of immigrants and minorities has been a demographic anomaly. All Europe needed to get to full-blown racism was more Africans, and now they have enough to make their own storm-trooper class jealous and angry.

Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 21, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
But it matters much MORE what the white redneck underclass thinks, as far as how this whole racial injustice thing you're so concerned about works out in the long run. If you don't think the white underclass is not really angry about Affirmative Action and the other perceived special treatment given to ethnic minorities and all the "special" people, you are delusional.

So what can you do to get the White Trash back?  Cancel Affirmative Action?  Make Gay Sex illegal?  Any of the things the proto-Nazis want would get you a huge backlash from the Black & Latino underclass, along with the LGBTQ cohort.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: K-Dog on September 21, 2018, 08:55:00 AM
Holders of property always have excuses for thug cops. This entire government is designed for the protection and preservation of property and its holders. Which is why the guy driving a Tesla gets a pass, and Neck Tattoo gets tazed.

That's simple. "Equal justice under the law" comes down to just how much justice you can afford.

Quote of the Month!

RE

At the end of the day we all seek justice.  Mo money mo justice!  As it goes I have to go seek some justice right now.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 09:41:52 AM
Well, it would help if the leaders on the liberal side were oriented toward being the party of the lower economic classes, rather than the party of the special people who deserve special treatment.

The Republican party didn't have to do anything much to attract the poor white people. They ended up voting red (how did Republicans become the reds, anyway?) because the blue party abandoned them.

Even now, they (seemingly inexplicably) vote against their own interests. They clearly do this, and it's because they now think of the GOP as the party of the whites. It's sad to me. Delusional even.

Even if the Democrats get power, and manage to take the country very socialist (compared to what we have now, not compared to Soviet Union) I think they will have trouble getting the white working stiffs back. they shouldn't have let labor unions get legislated out of business...but they did.

I see us going socialist, if the current pendulum keeps swinging to austerity and wealth inequality, because there will be a hell of a backlash....but the world might not last that long, dunno.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 10:41:01 AM
Holders of property always have excuses for thug cops. This entire government is designed for the protection and preservation of property and its holders. Which is why the guy driving a Tesla gets a pass, and Neck Tattoo gets tazed.

That's simple. "Equal justice under the law" comes down to just how much justice you can afford.

Quote of the Month!

RE

This is knee jerk classism at it's finest, assuming that part about property was leveled at me.

 I have no need or desire to make excuses for cops. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, and I've been a fugitive from justice for some petty crime or another for my entire life.

 I used to brag I never got apprehended or sent to jail, but now I can only brag I've never been convicted. They did manage to suspend my drivers license for 180 days.

That happens to 93% of people charged with DWI here locally (guilty or not), another sign that American blind justice is about extorting money from people.

I just recognize that there are reasons why cops, who are mostly not people stolen away from the aerospace industry, use violence as a tool. It is what it is. It can't change much until their working environment changes for the better, and that will never happen.





Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 10:57:14 AM
The best way to deal with cop violence in the hood is to get the fuck out of the hood.

I recognize that not everyone can do that...but a lot more people could if they weren't completely programmed to believe they can't. Some people do, though, and they are the wise ones. That leaves the hood with a higher population of thugs, though.

Not all social problems can be legislated out of existence. Culture and belief systems trump graduating high school. Selling drugs and gang-banging  is more glamorous by far than working some shit job to save a little money.

If the cops roust you, you can't resist. You can't run, and if you're black, you shouldn't be risking carrying a gun, even if you have license.

Most of these cop beatings begin with the beat-ee serving a cop some attitude. I know that isn't always the case, but it IS the case most of the time.  It's toilet training for hood rats to mouth off at cops. Proves their manhood. But not conducive to survival.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 21, 2018, 11:08:25 AM

 I used to brag I never got apprehended or sent to jail, but now I can only brag I've never been convicted. They did manage to suspend my drivers license for 180 days.

Beat you.  Never apprehended, never sent to jail, never convicted even for a misdemeanor.  In fact I think there are only 3 driving violations on my record, one speeding ticket right after I got my license on the way to a Bob Dylan concert in Boston, one missed Weigh Station in Tennessee driving the big rig and one missed stop sign (I didn't miss it, totally bogus) in Wisconson.  No DWIs, never had a license suspended.  I am so squeaky clean its hard to believe after more than 40 years given the way I live my life. lol.

To the point here though,if I ever did have this problem, spending $12K for legal defense and getting out from under is a bit high on my budgetary list now (that would buy me a hydraulic lift for SaVANnah AND a high powered Ewz Trike), and in most periods of my life I couldn't have afforded that.  You got off because you are $RICH$.  Money buys you out of shit like that.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/casper/images/3/30/435170-richie-rich.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170922045353)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 11:11:52 AM
If I hadn't had my professional license to worry about, I'd have gotten off much cheaper.

I paid 3K to a 2nd attorney to deal with my state board (although ultimately that attorney did nothing, since I beat the rap) and I paid 2K just to have my record expunged. My lofty position cost me more, not less.

Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 21, 2018, 11:24:52 AM
Holders of property always have excuses for thug cops. This entire government is designed for the protection and preservation of property and its holders. Which is why the guy driving a Tesla gets a pass, and Neck Tattoo gets tazed.

That's simple. "Equal justice under the law" comes down to just how much justice you can afford.

Quote of the Month!

RE

This is knee jerk classism at it's finest, assuming that part about property was leveled at me.

 I have no need or desire to make excuses for cops. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, and I've been a fugitive from justice for some petty crime or another for my entire life.

 I used to brag I never got apprehended or sent to jail, but now I can only brag I've never been convicted. They did manage to suspend my drivers license for 180 days.

That happens to 93% of people charged with DWI here locally (guilty or not), another sign that American blind justice is about extorting money from people.

I just recognize that there are reasons why cops, who are mostly not people stolen away from the aerospace industry, use violence as a tool. It is what it is. It can't change much until their working environment changes for the better, and that will never happen.

I also own property. So does RE. My point was more global, but if the shoe fits.

"Knee jerk classism" is the sort of epithet that the well off fire at the oppressed, much like "political correctness" and "social justice warrior" at about the time the oppressed get sick and tired of putting up with their shit. My OP expresses the point of the political inception of this joint. The last thing the powdered wig crowd wanted was "democracy." That was synonymous with mob rule. Adams was terrified that the mob would vote themselves "debt jubilees." So let's not kid ourselves.

In re, "another sign that American blind justice is about extorting money from people. "
I refer you to fee mining in the inner cities, Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickled and Dimed," and asset forfeiture at various levels.

I just recognize that there are reasons why cops, who are mostly not people stolen away from the aerospace industry, use violence as a tool. It is what it is. It can't change much until their working environment changes for the better, and that will never happen.

We could try better training. We could make it a dischargeable offense without retirement benefits to fail to employ a video camera. We could disconnect the "justice" system form the private prison system and remove the profit motive from the market for slave labor. We could lift the ceiling on IQ for hiring cops (can't have cops asking questions or questioning the system.) Would do with fewer white nationalists and assorted nazis in police uniform. there are plenty of things we could do.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 21, 2018, 11:31:48 AM
We could try better training. We could make it a dischargeable offense without retirement benefits to fail to employ a video camera. We could disconnect the "justice" system form the private prison system and remove the profit motive from the market for slave labor. We could lift the ceiling on IQ for hiring cops (can't have cops asking questions or questioning the system.) Would do with fewer white nationalists and assorted nazis in police uniform. there are plenty of things we could do.


When you fire off "people with property do, or say thus and so " then it's perfectly fair to hear back "socialist liberals always blame the cops".

I know the problem set, and I understand there might be some improvements made. I'm just skeptical and cynical. And not willing to the always blame the cops 100%.

Cops scare me. I can only imagine what black people go through. I'm not saying they aren't oppressed. But it's a complex problem.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 21, 2018, 11:39:01 AM
I also own property. So does RE.

I don't own any property other than portable stuff.  No land, no McHovel, nada.  My property ownership amounts to some old used carz and my vast array of SHTF Day Preps.  I can get all of it onto about 8 pallets to ship out of here, although I doubt I would take it all.  I would sell off my SUV and buy an enclosed trailer for SaVANnah to GTFO of Dodge here.  Road trip on the Al-Can!  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 22, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
I also own property. So does RE.

I don't own any property other than portable stuff.  No land, no McHovel, nada.  My property ownership amounts to some old used carz and my vast array of SHTF Day Preps. 
RE

Property.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 22, 2018, 09:08:42 AM
I also own property. So does RE.

I don't own any property other than portable stuff.  No land, no McHovel, nada.  My property ownership amounts to some old used carz and my vast array of SHTF Day Preps. 
RE

Property.

Well just about everyone owns SOME property, unless you run around naked.  Clothes are property.  Boots were highly prized property at one time and would be removed from the corpse as a nice prize.

I don't deny the ownership of some forms of "property".  If you can move it with you, you can own it IMHO.  The type of property ownership I deny as valid is ownership of the land and fixed housing.  AKA, Farms, McMansions etc.  Once you accept this type of ownership as valid, you divide the population into the "haves" and "have nots".  Ownership of Property is what the whole setup of the FSoA was about from the very beginning.  Property holders had RIGHTS.  Everyone else was SOL.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 09:18:45 AM
Financial assets like stocks and bonds and cash are property too.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 09:21:06 AM
Gold, silver, diamonds.

Guns, livestock.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 09:21:54 AM
Ships.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 09:23:03 AM
Patents.

Websites.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 22, 2018, 10:05:16 AM
Patents.

Websites.

Yea, The Diner is worth a LOT.  ::)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 10:24:29 AM
When you head out to the Big Potlatch In The Sky, Surly and I are gonna monetize this thing and make some real cash. We're just biding our time.

(And if you believe that, could I interest you in a nice waterfront bungalow on the banks of the Cape Fear River?.)
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 22, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
When you head out to the Big Potlatch In The Sky, Surly and I are gonna monetize this thing and make some real cash. We're just biding our time.

(And if you believe that, could I interest you in a nice waterfront bungalow on the banks of the Cape Fear River?.)

If you monetize and sell the Diner, maybe you could buy a nice Rowboat for a Seastead!  :icon_sunny:

(https://nwmaritime.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Rowboat-Rentals.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 22, 2018, 10:43:38 AM
When you head out to the Big Potlatch In The Sky, Surly and I are gonna monetize this thing and make some real cash. We're just biding our time.

(And if you believe that, could I interest you in a nice waterfront bungalow on the banks of the Cape Fear River?.)

If you monetize and sell the Diner, maybe you could buy a nice Rowboat for a Seastead!  :icon_sunny:

(https://nwmaritime.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Rowboat-Rentals.jpg)

RE

I think that assessment is overly optimistic. Maybe e more like it:

(http://m.joyceproject.com/images/for-chapter/3/fullsize/stuckboat.jpg)
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 22, 2018, 10:51:19 AM

I think that assessment is overly optimistic. Maybe e more like it:

Maybe you could buy the oars?

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: luciddreams on September 22, 2018, 05:13:44 PM
I'm not sure I have much to add to this thread.

Somehow, per usual, I agree with both Eddie and Surly.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense.  I just see both sides and agree with them both.  It's like you guys are arguing just to be arguing. 

Cops do belong to a subculture as do medics, soldiers, truckers, techie geeks, musician, artists...what we do defines our outer purpose to a large degree.  Subcultures are themselves made up of a diverse group of all types of people with all types of past experiences which inform their opinions on the various sizes and shapes of but holes.  Which, by the way, all buttholes are the same color.

My points is that we are all people.  Whites have been mostly in charge historically, at least in the Western world.  White privilage is a real thing, but go to a white trailer park and tell them about that...see what they say.  It's hard just being human in this world.  It cost money to live.  What are we to do about the past injustices done to blacks and other minorities?  Does Jesus need to come back and be crucified again so that whites can go about thier lives without some sense of guilt for the past?  I've not once been racist in my life.  I might have dropped an N bomb a time or two, but I've cussed a cracka ass cracka just the same.  I just don't like stupid people much. 

What to do about race problems?  Grow up.  Grow up and see people as people.  Problem is that people are clanish and jingoistic.  They are nationalists and exclusionary.  They are affraid of the other and affraid of change.  But mostly they are simply affriad to be wrong.  Everybody wants to be right.  Everybody wants to believe that what they think and believe and do is correct.  Everybody can't be correct because there is right and there is wrong.  I'm not speaking of just morals either.  Morals and ethics can be debated.  There is a growing group of people thorughout they world now that believes that the Earth is flat.  They call themselves "flat earthers."  WTF?  They think they are right.  They are not right.  The Earth is round. 

Racists are not right.  They are hateful and stoopid.  Racists cops exists as do psychopathic killer nurses and a growing class of nut job gunmen .  Our world gone done and got itself in a mighty fine mess. 

I don't know...my stance has always been that I'm human, and so is everybody else.  Well except for the lizard illuminati.  They are overlords who drink human blood and eat people to stay in power.  Damn lizard illuminati...I bet they are responsible for racism! 
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Eddie on September 22, 2018, 05:58:49 PM
Glad you checked in.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 23, 2018, 01:26:02 AM
Well, it would help if the leaders on the liberal side were oriented toward being the party of the lower economic classes, rather than the party of the special people who deserve special treatment.

The Republican party didn't have to do anything much to attract the poor white people. They ended up voting red (how did Republicans become the reds, anyway?) because the blue party abandoned them.

Even now, they (seemingly inexplicably) vote against their own interests. They clearly do this, and it's because they now think of the GOP as the party of the whites. It's sad to me. Delusional even.

Even if the Democrats get power, and manage to take the country very socialist (compared to what we have now, not compared to Soviet Union) I think they will have trouble getting the white working stiffs back. they shouldn't have let labor unions get legislated out of business...but they did.

I see us going socialist, if the current pendulum keeps swinging to austerity and wealth inequality, because there will be a hell of a backlash....but the world might not last that long, dunno.

This hits the nail on the head.

Trump really didn't win the election, Clinton lost it - the leaders on the left descended into pure identity politics and they offered nothing else to their constituents - either you play the game of identity politics, and you play to WIN, or you have no meaning in life. Refusing to frame some issue, ANY issue, as a battleground between collective identities, or worse, trying to introduce some nuance and hard facts into the discussion, is tantamount to racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Many people recognized the absurdity of this game and chose to sit on the bench - hence Trump stealing the election.

Eddie wants to veer outside the box of identity politics - he wants to put some context and nuance into the discussion of cops killing people. It can't be as simple as institutional racism - everyone knows this. However the game of identity politics does not allow for complexities or under-simplifications - it's sexism, racism, classism or nothing at all. A failure of imagination indeed, and a fear of confronting the complexity of life. No "solution" to the problem will be good enough, because the ideology demands an ongoing narrative of group struggle. Data points will continue to be cherry picked to tow the line.

And also, private ownership of property. Just throw that in there to cover all the collectivist talking points...

http://www.youtube.com/v/PfH8IG7Awk0
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 23, 2018, 05:51:11 AM
Well, it would help if the leaders on the liberal side were oriented toward being the party of the lower economic classes, rather than the party of the special people who deserve special treatment.

The Republican party didn't have to do anything much to attract the poor white people. They ended up voting red (how did Republicans become the reds, anyway?) because the blue party abandoned them.

Even now, they (seemingly inexplicably) vote against their own interests. They clearly do this, and it's because they now think of the GOP as the party of the whites. It's sad to me. Delusional even.

Even if the Democrats get power, and manage to take the country very socialist (compared to what we have now, not compared to Soviet Union) I think they will have trouble getting the white working stiffs back. they shouldn't have let labor unions get legislated out of business...but they did.

I see us going socialist, if the current pendulum keeps swinging to austerity and wealth inequality, because there will be a hell of a backlash....but the world might not last that long, dunno.

This hits the nail on the head.

Trump really didn't win the election, Clinton lost it - the leaders on the left descended into pure identity politics and they offered nothing else to their constituents - either you play the game of identity politics, and you play to WIN, or you have no meaning in life. Refusing to frame some issue, ANY issue, as a battleground between collective identities, or worse, trying to introduce some nuance and hard facts into the discussion, is tantamount to racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Many people recognized the absurdity of this game and chose to sit on the bench - hence Trump stealing the election.

Eddie wants to veer outside the box of identity politics - he wants to put some context and nuance into the discussion of cops killing people. It can't be as simple as institutional racism - everyone knows this. However the game of identity politics does not allow for complexities or under-simplifications - it's sexism, racism, classism or nothing at all. A failure of imagination indeed, and a fear of confronting the complexity of life. No "solution" to the problem will be good enough, because the ideology demands an ongoing narrative of group struggle. Data points will continue to be cherry picked to tow the line.

And also, private ownership of property. Just throw that in there to cover all the collectivist talking points...


I know exactly who this is aimed at, you hired house hypocrite.

723 people have been shot and killed by police in 2018 as of 830. 987 people were fatally shot by police in 2017. As of a week ago, there have been 15 more fatal shootings this year than at the same time last year. No "structural racism" here in this, the best of all possible worlds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?utm_term=.966abb7e7bab (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?utm_term=.966abb7e7bab)

But I'm sure those are just "data points cherry picked to tow the line." By all means, take your first opportunity to communicate your heartfelt sanctimony to the family of a victim. I would pay to see that.

And let's take a moment to honor those true believers like Dr. Pangloss here who decry "identity politics" while ignoring the fact that the steaming turd that is what is left of the Republican party is DEFINED by identity politics. What indeed is Trumpism but the perfect distillation of racial politics, dog-whistles, and coded messages now brought into the open and weaponized? With open warfare against brown people including de-citizenization.

But you just keep dancing Mr. Bojangles, dance. The air is thick with irony.

And you never did answer the questions about "Picturing Christ."
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 23, 2018, 06:00:32 AM
But you just keep dancing Mr. Bojangles, dance. The air is thick with irony.

http://www.youtube.com/v/e-LVXR6rjXs

Quote
And you never did answer the questions about "Picturing Christ."

(http://media.fakeposters.com/results/2016/01/05/qeirvl88qq.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 23, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
I know exactly who this is aimed at, you hired house hypocrite.

Instead of sticking in the word "hired" when someone is taking you to task, why don't you try and posit an explanation of how I came to be paid by the alt-right establishment to drop a few posts on the Doomstead Diner questioning the radical left ideology. You won't do it, because you would be forced to see how absurd that allegation is while you type out the words.

Quote
723 people have been shot and killed by police in 2018 as of 830. 987 people were fatally shot by police in 2017. As of a week ago, there have been 15 more fatal shootings this year than at the same time last year. No "structural racism" here in this, the best of all possible worlds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?utm_term=.966abb7e7bab (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?utm_term=.966abb7e7bab)

But I'm sure those are just "data points cherry picked to tow the line."

Yes, OF COURSE this is cherry picking data points, IF you are using them to support a hypothesis (using that word very loosely) that cops are shooting people because they are almost all racist. But it's even worse than cherry picking, because taking a data set which started in 2015 and using it as evidence of anything is premature. Or worse yet disingenuous, if you are smart enough to know that and frequently decry economists and pundits who use similar tactics to show a healthy economy.

What's worse still is pretending that the first link that comes up when scrolling down the page of the article you posted doesn't exist:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/fatal-police-shootings-of-unarmed-people-have-significantly-declined-experts-say/2018/05/03/d5eab374-4349-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.e461ac024474 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/fatal-police-shootings-of-unarmed-people-have-significantly-declined-experts-say/2018/05/03/d5eab374-4349-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.e461ac024474)
"The number of deadly police shootings of unarmed people has generally declined since 2015 even as the tally of fatal shootings by law enforcement is on pace to hit nearly 1,000 for the fourth year in a row, according to data gathered by The Washington Post.

Fatal shootings of unarmed black men — such as the high-profile case in March of Stephon Clark in Sacramento — are among the kinds of killings that have fallen. Criminologists said the downturn in the number of cases and their analysis of the data indicate that evidence of racial bias by police who shoot and kill unarmed blacks has also declined but not disappeared.

“These trends mark significant changes,” said Geoff Alpert, a professor in the department of criminology and criminal justice at the University of South Carolina who has been reviewing and studying the data at The Post’s request. “What we don’t understand yet is what’s causing these numbers to move downward.”


Yeah, no shit we don't understand what caused them to move downward, just as we don't understand what caused them to move upward in the first place.

Quote
By all means, take your first opportunity to communicate your heartfelt sanctimony to the family of a victim. I would pay to see that.

Do you think families of police shooting victims would be comforted when being told that all their pain and suffering was the cause of institutional racism or the private ownership of property? That there was a cohort of political activists taking up "their cause" for them? Most wouldn't, because most can detect utter BS when it is fed to them. They can also detect feigned compassion for their plights.

Again, this is primarily why Clinton lost.

Quote
And let's take a moment to honor those true believers like Dr. Pangloss here who decry "identity politics" while ignoring the fact that the steaming turd that is what is left of the Republican party is DEFINED by identity politics. What indeed is Trumpism but the perfect distillation of racial politics, dog-whistles, and coded messages now brought into the open and weaponized? With open warfare against brown people including de-citizenization.

My perspective, unlike your ideology, does not prevent me from criticizing the Republican party and the identity politics they play. Yours prevents you from seeing it on the left. The difference is, as you say, people on the right usually don't deny they are using identity politics, it is indeed all out in the open with them. They don't feign compassion for the immigrants they want to keep or shove out or the minorities they want to take the country back from - their hatred, fear and resentment is a point of pride. On the left it is a point of confusion and denial, even though it's still worn on their sleeves.

Quote
And you never did answer the questions about "Picturing Christ."

What questions about "Picturing Christ"? How are you possibly trying to connect a brief blog I created to anything being discussed here? Is this a part of your theory of how I came to be "hired"? Do explain, if you possibly can...
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 23, 2018, 04:35:03 PM

Quote
And you never did answer the questions about "Picturing Christ."

What questions about "Picturing Christ"? How are you possibly trying to connect a brief blog I created to anything being discussed here?

Blurdyblurdyblur.

It has nothing to do with the topic, ideologue. I'll give you credit for displaying right wing attribute #1: projection. Wingnuts ALWAYs accuse others of that for which they are guilty. You have drifted so far to the right that I'm surprised the sun shines where you are.

The reason I brought up the consistently avoided topic of you failed blog, and the disavowal of all of your previous writings, is to underline your moral vacuity. You took it all down (and attempted to erase history) so it wouldn't fuck up your legal career. A point you have studiously avoided, since you became Mammon's gobblecock. For some reason, you've decided to advance talking points for the people who would kick your mom, fist your toddler and burn a cross in the yards where immigrants live.

The people you support are clammy gas station dwellers. Motherless roach people. Buckets of goat puke. Lobotomized bruise collectors, scrotal tumors, and racist cop-humpers.

By all means, take your argument to the family of someone who has been summarily executed by a cop, and let us know how it goes for you.Or have your next of kin do it.

To return to the point of the thread, police kill so often because they can, with very little apparent consequence. And they are enabled by scoundrels like you.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 23, 2018, 09:15:40 PM
Surly,

It doesn't go unnoticed that you ignored my response to your cop shooting stats. Your comments about cops reek of bitterness, resentment and faux socialist outrage - there is not even an ounce, a small sliver, of objective analysis in them. You pretend you have the answers for why cops shoot people, increasingly fewer unarmed black people, but you have no answers for anyone, LEAST of all the people who are victims of shootings.

At least we can all stop pretending you are coming at this from anything but pure ideological possession. Orwell had a few things to say about your type:

"The truth is that, to many people calling themselves Socialists, revolution does not mean a movement of the masses with which they hope to associate themselves; it means a set of reforms which 'we', the clever ones, are going to impose upon 'them', the Lower Orders. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to regard the book-trained Socialist as a bloodless creature entirely incapable of emotion. Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred—a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacuo hatred—against the exploiters."

"The underlying motive of many Socialists, I believe, is simply a hypertrophied sense of order. The present state of affairs offends them not because it causes misery, still less because it makes freedom impossible, but because it is untidy; what they desire, basically, is to reduce the world to something resembling a chess-board."

-The Road to Wigan Pier
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 23, 2018, 09:35:19 PM
The reason I brought up the consistently avoided topic of you failed blog, and the disavowal of all of your previous writings, is to underline your moral vacuity. You took it all down (and attempted to erase history) so it wouldn't fuck up your legal career.

The reason I started Picturing Christ was that I felt all the financial collapse talk (including my own on TAE and here) was dancing around the symptoms of root problems which have to do with peoples' underlying philosophy, metaphysics and theology. That is why I also started focusing on those topics here. That is what I still believe to this day - which is part of the reason I am so attracted to JP's discussions - he goes deep into the philosophy and theology.

BUT, part of being a Christian is recognizing that this world is a forum for action, not just endless musings in relatively futile attempts to reach a few dozen people - and my 3+ years of training in the American legal system made my actions most effective in a legal career. Now I have reached hundreds of people in concrete ways in which writing blog posts would never achieve.

It's unsurprising RE thinks of "failure" at blogging as a bad thing, but apparently you, the extremely nominal Christian, do as well. Anyone who has taken business risks and has some life experience, or takes the Christian worldview seriously, on the other hand, knows that occasional failure is guaranteed in life and it is often the best path to improvement of yourself and therefore the community around you.

I wanted to take down the TAE and DD posts because I did not want people attributing to me things that I no longer believed to be true. It's that simple. Perhaps that was a mistake, though - there is some value in preserving one's historical ideological development, despite (or because of) how utterly wrong the ideas were. I am not so worried about how those ideas will come to affect me anymore - I give people in my field more credit for intellectual discernment than I used to.

Now I am much more worried about people with NO such discernment, who take PRIDE in their ideological possession, like you, spreading your intellectually lazy and dangerous dogma out into the world. I am worried about the people like you who are organizing and influencing our culture. The people who could not picture Christ if their lives or eternal salvation depended on it.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 23, 2018, 10:24:49 PM
The reason I brought up the consistently avoided topic of you failed blog, and the disavowal of all of your previous writings, is to underline your moral vacuity. You took it all down (and attempted to erase history) so it wouldn't fuck up your legal career.

The reason I started Picturing Christ was that I felt all the financial collapse talk (including my own on TAE and here) was dancing around the symptoms of root problems which have to do with peoples' underlying philosophy, metaphysics and theology. That is why I also started focusing on those topics here. That is what I still believe to this day - which is part of the reason I am so attracted to JP's discussions - he goes deep into the philosophy and theology.

BUT, part of being a Christian is recognizing that this world is a forum for action, not just endless musings in relatively futile attempts to reach a few dozen people - and my 3+ years of training in the American legal system made my actions most effective in a legal career. Now I have reached hundreds of people in concrete ways in which writing blog posts would never achieve.

It's unsurprising RE thinks of "failure" at blogging as a bad thing, but apparently you, the extremely nominal Christian, do as well. Anyone who has taken business risks and has some life experience, or takes the Christian worldview seriously, on the other hand, knows that occasional failure is guaranteed in life and it is often the best path to improvement of yourself and therefore the community around you.

I wanted to take down the TAE and DD posts because I did not want people attributing to me things that I no longer believed to be true. It's that simple. Perhaps that was a mistake, though - there is some value in preserving one's historical ideological development, despite (or because of) how utterly wrong the ideas were. I am not so worried about how those ideas will come to affect me anymore - I give people in my field more credit for intellectual discernment than I used to.

Now I am much more worried about people with NO such discernment, who take PRIDE in their ideological possession, like you, spreading your intellectually lazy and dangerous dogma out into the world. I am worried about the people like you who are organizing and influencing our culture. The people who could not picture Christ if their lives or eternal salvation depended on it.

(http://www.demotivation.us/media/demotivators/demotivation.us_FAILURE-The-harder-you-try-the-more-it-hurts-when-you-fail_13530022457.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: K-Dog on September 24, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
Quote
The people who could not picture Christ if their lives or eternal salvation depended on it.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeankeatonart.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2Fcambria-438x480.jpg&f=1)

Christ on a crutch.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 24, 2018, 02:53:55 AM
Quote
The people who could not picture Christ if their lives or eternal salvation depended on it.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeankeatonart.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2Fcambria-438x480.jpg&f=1)

Christ on a crutch.

That's a crappy walker.  No Brakes, no seat, no storage compartment.  Mine has really good brakes, padded seat and under-seat storage.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Surly1 on September 24, 2018, 04:10:57 AM
The reason I brought up the consistently avoided topic of you failed blog, and the disavowal of all of your previous writings, is to underline your moral vacuity. You took it all down (and attempted to erase history) so it wouldn't fuck up your legal career.

The reason I started Picturing Christ was that I felt all the financial collapse talk (including my own on TAE and here) was dancing around the symptoms of root problems which have to do with peoples' underlying philosophy, metaphysics and theology. That is why I also started focusing on those topics here.

Perhaps you took out down because running a blog is hard work and is extremely time consuming. But more likely, because you thought it might be bad for badness. The guilt for which informs why you are so free with the epithets and accusations. "Before the cock crows three times..."

BUT, part of being a Christian is recognizing that this world is a forum for action, not just endless musings in relatively futile attempts to reach a few dozen people - and my 3+ years of training in the American legal system made my actions most effective in a legal career. Now I have reached hundreds of people in concrete ways in which writing blog posts would never achieve.

So you're finding some sort of higher calling as a bankruptcy attorney? Or a wider audience? The slipperiness of this equivocation eludes me, although the slimy feeling is familiar...

It's unsurprising RE thinks of "failure" at blogging as a bad thing, but apparently you, the extremely nominal Christian, do as well. Anyone who has taken business risks and has some life experience, or takes the Christian worldview seriously, on the other hand, knows that occasional failure is guaranteed in life and it is often the best path to improvement of yourself and therefore the community around you.

No, blogging is hard, thankless work. The only guaranteed outcomes are frustration, lack of sleep, and being dogged by trolls. Take it from a "nominal Christian." What an oaf.

Now I am much more worried about people with NO such discernment, who take PRIDE in their ideological possession, like you, spreading your intellectually lazy and dangerous dogma out into the world. I am worried about the people like you who are organizing and influencing our culture. The people who could not picture Christ if their lives or eternal salvation depended on it.

As Jesus said, "Blessed are the name-callers, for theirs are the dark money PAC contributions."

By all means, Ashvin, be afraid. Be very afraid. The oppressed are rising, and as they do I will hold their coats, even as you make apologies for their oppressors.

The future will belong to us.

"Ideological possession." A nice flourish. What's next, witch-burning? Ordeal by fire?
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 24, 2018, 04:22:39 AM
So you're finding some sort of higher calling as a bankruptcy attorney? Or a wider audience? The slipperiness of this equivocation eludes me, although the slimy feeling is familiar...

It's God's Work to make your living off of people who are broke, dontchya know?  Next he will be chasing ambulances to make money off cripples.

If you can't succeed as a Blogger, you morph into a Troll in the commentariat of OPBs.  All the time Watson is spending here could be spent doing pro-bono work for more BK people, but noooooooo, he finds it necessary to show up here for another beat down on a daily basis!  ::)  Good Grief, he can't even successfully QUIT a website!  There is the definition of a complete LOSER on the internet.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/giveupREPLACEMENT.jpg?v=1506028831)

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 24, 2018, 04:52:46 AM
Let me start by saying, who gives a shit about my personal career choices? Apparently people who cannot think of any reasonable rebuttals or responses to arguments.  I am sharply critiquing your ideology which few people (if anyone) here shares. You can't respond, so you try going after my personal character. That being said...

Perhaps you took out down because running a blog is hard work and is extremely time consuming. But more likely, because you thought it might be bad for badness. The guilt for which informs why you are so free with the epithets and accusations. "Before the cock crows three times..."

Running a blog is not nearly as hard work or time consuming as successfully running a small business. It's not even close. Running a blog is also a lot easier and requires a lot less intellect than writing thoughtful articles or posts. Just look at RE's body of "work" for exhibit A.

So you're finding some sort of higher calling as a bankruptcy attorney? Or a wider audience? The slipperiness of this equivocation eludes me, although the slimy feeling is familiar...

Most definitely. When people come into my office in tears and barely able to speak due to their financial stress, I find a lot of value in watching them transform as that stress is removed and watching them at least have a chance to start over. At the very least they get to keep what they have earned without constantly being harassed or looking over their shoulders for a summons to court and freeze of their bank account or withholding of their paychecks. They also get to keep their families in shelter long enough to either catch up on payments or find something more affordable.

Quote
By all means, Ashvin, be afraid. Be very afraid. The oppressed are rising, and as they do I will hold their coats, even as you make apologies for their oppressors.

The future will belong to us.

"Ideological possession." A nice flourish. What's next, witch-burning? Ordeal by fire?

So you keep saying, Old Major. History has heard this mantra many times before - it won't prove any more enlightening or beneficial to the oppressed than it has before.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 24, 2018, 04:58:42 AM

It's God's Work to make your living off of people who are broke, dontchya know?

$800-$3,000 to wipe out $50-$200k+ debt is a good deal, not to mention save who knows how much equity in your property. How much have you put back into the pockets of people who have ever given you money? Certainly not a dime into that of your readers.   

Quote
All the time Watson is spending here could be spent doing pro-bono work for more BK people,

I estimate it has taken me a grand total of 30 min. for all my comments on this thread, if that. A grand total of 2-3 hours for all my comments this year. How much hours of the day do you spend running a blog that most people would hesitate to call successful? Jealous much?
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: g on September 24, 2018, 05:22:20 AM
Quote
$800-$3,000 to wipe out $50-$200k+ debt is a good deal, not to mention save who knows how much equity in your property.

Nice going Ashvin, as usual fair and honest, most admirable traits.

Goldbugs  remember a time when the lender was supposed to be as responsible as the borrower. They need a lesson taught them, the borrowers as well but they are usually much less sophisticated in theses matters than the former who take advantage.   
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 24, 2018, 05:24:08 AM

It's God's Work to make your living off of people who are broke, dontchya know?

$800-$3,000 to wipe out $50-$200k+ debt is a good deal, not to mention save who knows how much equity in your property. How much have you put back into the pockets of people who have ever given you money? Certainly not a dime into that of your readers. 

The Diner doesn't make money Watson, it's not monetized.  It costs ME money to run the place.  Far as what I have done for people, I spent 30 years teaching children to be courageous, self-reliant and strong.  Thousands of them.  Get back to me in 30 years when you are anywhere near that record.

Quote
All the time Watson is spending here could be spent doing pro-bono work for more BK people,

Quote
I estimate it has taken me a grand total of 30 min. for all my comments on this thread, if that. A grand total of 2-3 hours for all my comments this year. How much hours of the day do you spend running a blog that most people would hesitate to call successful? Jealous much?

Yes, it is less time consuming to go disrupt somebody else's website than to run your own.  This has already been covered.  Next year, spend the Grand Total of 2-3 hours doing pro bono work, or join a commentariat where your material will be favorably received.  Here it will not be.  You don't belong here Watson, you're a Fake Fundy Christian Right Wing Ideologue Collapse Denier.  IOW, the antithesis of the Diner Philosophy on all levels.  Why do you even bother with this?  You don't even think the Diner reaches all that many people.  You do it just because you are addicted to argument and because you have lost your marbles.  Much like Matt Savinar, who at least got into a fairly innocuos refuge in Astrology and quit the scene altogether, but you morphed into a Fundy Right Wing Ideologue and continue to make a nuisance of yourself.  Go try TBP, they'll eat up your shit there.

RE
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: Ashvin on September 24, 2018, 05:59:11 AM
The Diner doesn't make money Watson, it's not monetized.  It costs ME money to run the place.  Far as what I have done for people, I spent 30 years teaching children to be courageous, self-reliant and strong.  Thousands of them.  Get back to me in 30 years when you are anywhere near that record.

I'm not the one shitting on other people's jobs, accusing them of exploiting people because they have the nerve to earn a decent living, or acting like running a collapse blog is somehow superior. That's all you.

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All the time Watson is spending here could be spent doing pro-bono work for more BK people,

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Yes, it is less time consuming to go disrupt somebody else's website than to run your own.  This has already been covered.  Next year, spend the Grand Total of 2-3 hours doing pro bono work, or join a commentariat where your material will be favorably received.  Here it will not be.  You don't belong here Watson, you're a Fake Fundy Christian Right Wing Ideologue Collapse Denier.  IOW, the antithesis of the Diner Philosophy on all levels.  Why do you even bother with this?  You don't even think the Diner reaches all that many people.  You do it just because you are addicted to argument and because you have lost your marbles.  Much like Matt Savinar, who at least got into a fairly innocuos refuge in Astrology and quit the scene altogether, but you morphed into a Fundy Right Wing Ideologue and continue to make a nuisance of yourself.  Go try TBP, they'll eat up your shit there.

RE

The only people here who think I am a right wing ideologue are, unsurprisingly enough, the left wing ideologues. Anyone here who isn't a left wing ideologue, like GO, Eddie, Agent Graves, K (before she was banned), Ka (before he got "collapse fatigue"), would read my comments for comprehension and realize I have not made a SINGLE argument in support of conservative ideology.

What is the Diner Philosophy? Clearly there are many people who participate on the forum who disagree with almost everything you write and stand for. Maybe the "Diner Philosophy" is something you no longer have control over.
Title: Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
Post by: RE on September 24, 2018, 06:11:47 AM
The Diner doesn't make money Watson, it's not monetized.  It costs ME money to run the place.  Far as what I have done for people, I spent 30 years teaching children to be courageous, self-reliant and strong.  Thousands of them.  Get back to me in 30 years when you are anywhere near that record.

I'm not the one shitting on other people's jobs, accusing them of exploiting people because they have the nerve to earn a decent living, or acting like running a collapse blog is somehow superior. That's all you.

Quote
All the time Watson is spending here could be spent doing pro-bono work for more BK people,

Quote
Yes, it is less time consuming to go disrupt somebody else's website than to run your own.  This has already been covered.  Next year, spend the Grand Total of 2-3 hours doing pro bono work, or join a commentariat where your material will be favorably received.  Here it will not be.  You don't belong here Watson, you're a Fake Fundy Christian Right Wing Ideologue Collapse Denier.  IOW, the antithesis of the Diner Philosophy on all levels.  Why do you even bother with this?  You don't even think the Diner reaches all that many people.  You do it just because you are addicted to argument and because you have lost your marbles.  Much like Matt Savinar, who at least got into a fairly innocuos refuge in Astrology and quit the scene altogether, but you morphed into a Fundy Right Wing Ideologue and continue to make a nuisance of yourself.  Go try TBP, they'll eat up your shit there.

RE

The only people here who think I am a right wing ideologue are, unsurprisingly enough, the left wing ideologues. Anyone here who isn't a left wing ideologue, like GO, Eddie, Agent Graves, K (before she was banned), Ka (before he got "collapse fatigue"), would read my comments for comprehension and realize I have not made a SINGLE argument in support of conservative ideology.

What is the Diner Philosophy? Clearly there are many people who participate on the forum who disagree with almost everything you write and stand for. Maybe the "Diner Philosophy" is something you no longer have control over.

Sigh.  Clearly you do not get the message, so I will give you some time off to reconsider your approach here.  See you in October.

RE