Doomstead Diner Menu => Economics => Topic started by: RE on March 24, 2019, 06:21:22 AM

Title: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Resources?
Post by: RE on March 24, 2019, 06:21:22 AM


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Published on The Doomstead Diner March 24, 2019



 



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Discuss this article at the Economics Table Inside the Diner



 



Inside the Diner we are having our regular debate on what it means to be "Poor", "Middle Class" or Rich?  Diners have the full variety of opinions on this, which usually suit their own perception of themselves and how they want others to perceive them.  Is there a way to cut through this variety of opinion to come to some reasonable definition of what any of these terms actually MEAN?  It often seems quite hopeless getting any agreement on this between the Diners, but in doing some research on the topic yesterday, I ran across a great website which has a Calculator allowing you to place yourself in the Global Ranking of Rich People on Earth.



I started doing this research after watching a video recommended by another Diner, a TED talk given by a Scandinavian Sociologist Harald Eia concerned with the topic of "Where in the World is it easiest to get RICH?"






Harald came up with the result that you stand the best chance of getting rich in the Social Democracies of places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.  He came up with this result by looking at the number of people with a net worth of $30M or better per capita by country.  This is something of a surprise to people who buy into Capitalist doctrine that High Taxes and the Social Welfare State are a drain on their incomes, but not much of a surprise to me because I already knew there were tons of filthy rich people in Scandinavia.



Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?  That is a pretty stiff requirement to consider somebody rich, IMHO.  You know the rich people in your neighborhood by the carz they drive, the McMansions they live in, the restaurants they frequent and how often they take expensive vacations.



The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.



I began to wonder what the situatioin was for people who were below that Stratospheric figure of $30M?  Was there a way to find out where the people with a Net Worth of $10M stood?  $3M? $1M? $100K? etc.  As it turns out, THERE IS!  You can find out on the Global Rich List calculator, and not only by Net Assets but by Income also!



So, I took 3 Hypothetical People and gave them some numbers to plug in to the calculator, and got the results for them.  Here they are below:



 



1- Fixed Income Frank



Frank is living on his Social Security and small Pension after working in various Middle Class jobs making the Median Salary for the time for 40 years.  He rents an apartment, has a couple of old carz and has a small Nest Egg to carry him through emergencies.  Here are Frank's Global Numbers:






 






 



Professional Pete:



Pete works in IT as a website developer for a local corporation.  He has worked up to a middle management position working for this corporation for over 20 years.  He grosses around $80K/year and he takes home about $60K after taxes, utilities, insurance etc.



 






 






 



Biz Owner Bill



Bill owns an Auto Repair and Body Shop biz in Springfield, MO as well as a couple of smaller ancillary biznesses, an Auto Zone franchise and an interest in the local NASCAR Dirt Racing Track.  He was born to Dirt Poor sodbusters in the Ozarks and bootstrapped himself up like Horatio Algier to become a Bizness Leader in his community.  He complains all the time about his onerous tax burden when out drinking with his buddies.



 






 






 



Now, as you can see, even if you are at the lower end of  relatively poor people in the FSoA living on a fixed pension and Social Security, relative to the rest of the Global population you are still doing quite well, Inside the top 7% in terms of Assets and 2% in terms of Income.  The cost of living is also quite different in Amerika than in say Mexico, so by itself this doesn't tell you how Rich or Poor you are for an Amerikan living in Amerika.  If you go ex-Pat, your status can change drasticlly of course.



So in order to get a good idea where these Asset and Income levels put you at relative to the rest of Amerikans, you have to drill down and isolate just this portion of the table.  Below is how our 3 hypothetical subjects rank out relative to each other.  Fixed Income Frank is in RED, Professional Pete is in PURPLE and Biz Owner Bill is in GREEN.  Assets calibrated from 8% on down in .2% increments, Income from 3% on down in .05% increments.



 






 



Based on the above chart, it becomes quite easy to determine who is Rich and who is Poor in Amerika.  Middle Class is a bit more difficult to peg, and can differ markedly depending whether you are looking at Assets or Income.



Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution curve for the World and for your country?  Do the numbers match your self-perception and self-identification?  How do you think this skewed Wealth Distribution can be rectified, or does it even need to be rectified?  Do you think Capitalism or Socialism is the better system to distribute diminishing Total Wealth on a resource depleted planet?  Do you have an alternative to suggest rather than one of these choices?  Come join us Inside the Diner to discuss thes important questions as the Collapse of Industrial Civilization bears down upon us all.



 



 



 


Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 26, 2019, 07:44:35 AM
Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?

Problem?

 He's a sociologist, and he defined his parameters. He was specifically looking for what he defined as ultra high net worth individuals. He wasn't trying to define the term rich, which means completely different things to different people.

The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.

We all know that (a) the world is overpopulated and (b) that something like 70% of the world' population live on less than $10 a day. This skews all your numbers for those of us who live in the first world....and truthfully, the second world too. Office workers in Bangkok make $800/month.

But that is income. And most people on the planet have low incomes and almost zero wealth. You can feel bad about it, but using it to make middle class Americans look shockingly rich is just a game that some people play....the Wealth Inequality Game.

Oh, look how rich you are!!!  You don't deserve all that wealth. What about the starving children in __________. (Choose your favorite 3rd world country.)


Not wealth. Your examples don't really even make sense. It looks like you randomly assigned different amounts of wealth to your various examples based on....what?  " What you think is "normal" or "average"? Whatever, you made it up, or somebody did.

 And apps like that one are fairly suspect, in the way they're constructed. But assuming the numbers are even correct by somebody's math, it's fairly meaningless.

So I don't see what you're trying to prove here. Neither me nor the guy who did the TED Talk made any moral judgments.

Here's an example. If I live and retire at 70 and my wife is alive, the two of us will make $7700/month from Social Security.  If I have retired my debt, I will have maybe that much again from cash flow on my assets. So that's high income, compared to most people.

But it isn't wealth.

My wealth is the assets I own. Equity in my business. Equity in my house. Equity in my farm property. Equity in the seven rental properties I own. Equity in my life insurance policy. The value of my stocks and/or cryptos. Gold and silver, if I have any. The value of my tractor. The value of my livestock, if I have any.

I don't measure my wealth or my income against some $2/day number dreamed up by some non-profit. I measure it against my own achievements and my own estimates about what kind of income I'm likely to need to live the way I want to live. Because that's what matters to me. I certainly don't give a flying fuck if it suits you or your commie peanut gallery on the Diner

And none of this has much to do with the TED Talk. I'm not an ultra high net worth individual. Not even close.



Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 08:15:43 AM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Nearingsfault on March 26, 2019, 08:32:12 AM
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<p style="text-align: center;">
   Published on <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog" target="_blank"><strong>The Doomstead Diner</strong>[/url]<strong> </strong>March 24, 2019
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <img alt="Image result for class war" class="irc_mi" data-iml="1553410112758" height="440" onload="typeof google==='object'&&google.aft&&google.aft(this)" src="https://www.datocms-assets.com/4857/1523077851-wealth2.jpg" style="margin-top: 0px;" width="542" />
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   Discuss this article at the<strong> Economics Table (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,12286.msg171781/topicseen.html#msg171781)</strong> Inside the Diner
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php" target="_blank"><strong>Inside the Diner</strong>[/url] we are having our regular debate on what it means to be "Poor", "Middle Class" or Rich?  Diners have the full variety of opinions on this, which usually suit their own perception of themselves and how they want others to perceive them.  Is there a way to cut through this variety of opinion to come to some reasonable definition of what any of these terms actually <strong>MEAN?</strong>  It often seems quite hopeless getting any agreement on this between the Diners, but in doing some research on the topic yesterday, I ran across a great website which has a Calculator allowing you to place yourself in the <strong>Global Ranking of Rich People on Earth</strong>.
</p>
<p>
   I started doing this research after watching a video recommended by another Diner, a TED talk given by a Scandinavian Sociologist Harald Eia concerned with the topic of "Where in the World is it easiest to get <strong>RICH</strong>?"
</p>
<p>
   <iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="432" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A9UmdY0E8hU" width="768"></iframe>
</p>
<p>
   Harald came up with the result that you stand the best chance of getting rich in the Social Democracies of places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.  He came up with this result by looking at the number of people with a net worth of $30M or better per capita by country.  This is something of a surprise to people who buy into Capitalist doctrine that High Taxes and the Social Welfare State are a drain on their incomes, but not much of a surprise to me because I already knew there were tons of filthy rich people in Scandinavia.
</p>
<p>
   Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?  That is a pretty stiff requirement to consider somebody rich, IMHO.  You know the rich people in your neighborhood by the carz they drive, the McMansions they live in, the restaurants they frequent and how often they take expensive vacations.
</p>
<p>
   The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.
</p>
<p>
   I began to wonder what the situatioin was for people who were below that Stratospheric figure of $30M?  Was there a way to find out where the people with a Net Worth of $10M stood?  $3M? $1M? $100K? etc.  As it turns out, <strong>THERE IS!</strong>  You can find out on the <a href="http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth" target="_blank"><strong>Global Rich List</strong>[/url] calculator, and not only by Net Assets but by Income also!
</p>
<p>
   So, I took 3 Hypothetical People and gave them some numbers to plug in to the calculator, and got the results for them.  Here they are below:
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>1- Fixed Income Frank</strong></span>
</p>
<p>
   Frank is living on his Social Security and small Pension after working in various Middle Class jobs making the Median Salary for the time for 40 years.  He rents an apartment, has a couple of old carz and has a small Nest Egg to carry him through emergencies.  Here are Frank's Global Numbers:
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40019" height="463" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-1024x661.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-1024x661.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-300x194.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-768x495.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1.png 1116w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40020" height="392" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-1024x560.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-1024x560.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-300x164.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-768x420.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1.png 1126w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>Professional Pete</strong></span>:
</p>
<p>
   Pete works in IT as a website developer for a local corporation.  He has worked up to a middle management position working for this corporation for over 20 years.  He grosses around $80K/year and he takes home about $60K after taxes, utilities, insurance etc.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40021" height="489" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-1024x698.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-1024x698.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-300x205.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-768x524.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2.png 1088w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40023" height="375" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-1024x536.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-1024x536.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-300x157.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-768x402.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2.png 1146w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>Biz Owner Bill</strong></span>
</p>
<p>
   Bill owns an Auto Repair and Body Shop biz in Springfield, MO as well as a couple of smaller ancillary biznesses, an Auto Zone franchise and an interest in the local NASCAR Dirt Racing Track.  He was born to Dirt Poor sodbusters in the Ozarks and bootstrapped himself up like Horatio Algier to become a Bizness Leader in his community.  He complains all the time about his onerous tax burden when out drinking with his buddies.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40024" height="498" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-1024x712.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-1024x712.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-300x209.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-768x534.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3.png 1082w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40026" height="400" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-1024x572.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-1024x572.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-300x168.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-768x429.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3.png 1110w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   Now, as you can see, even if you are at the lower end of  relatively poor people in the FSoA living on a fixed pension and Social Security, relative to the rest of the Global population you are still doing quite well, Inside the top 7% in terms of Assets and 2% in terms of Income.  The cost of living is also quite different in Amerika than in say Mexico, so by itself this doesn't tell you how Rich or Poor you are for an Amerikan living in Amerika.  If you go ex-Pat, your status can change drasticlly of course.
</p>
<p>
   So in order to get a good idea where these Asset and Income levels put you at relative to the rest of Amerikans, you have to drill down and isolate just this portion of the table.  Below is how our 3 hypothetical subjects rank out relative to each other.  Fixed Income Frank is in <span style="color:#FF0000;"><strong>RED</strong></span>, Professional Pete is in <span style="color:#800080;"><strong>PURPLE</strong></span> and Biz Owner Bill is in <span style="color:#008000;"><strong>GREEN</strong></span>.  Assets calibrated from 8% on down in .2% increments, Income from 3% on down in .05% increments.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40025" height="430" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-1024x614.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-1024x614.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-300x180.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-768x461.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized.png 1229w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   Based on the above chart, it becomes quite easy to determine who is <strong>Rich</strong> and who is <strong>Poor</strong> in Amerika. <strong> Middle Class</strong> is a bit more difficult to peg, and can differ markedly depending whether you are looking at Assets or Income.
</p>
<p>
   Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution curve for the World and for your country?  Do the numbers match your self-perception and self-identification?  How do you think this skewed Wealth Distribution can be rectified, or does it even need to be rectified?  Do you think Capitalism or Socialism is the better system to distribute diminishing Total Wealth on a resource depleted planet?  Do you have an alternative to suggest rather than one of these choices?  Come join us <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php" target="_blank"><strong>Inside the Diner</strong>[/url] to discuss thes important questions as the <strong>Collapse of Industrial Civilization</strong> bears down upon us all.
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: right;">
   
</p>
<p>
    </p>

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely.  I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy! Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 26, 2019, 08:37:08 AM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 08:44:34 AM

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely. [/quote]

Of course he is underfunded!  That's why he is in the "Poor" category! lol.  It is however the situation that about 40% of Amerikan retired people are in.

Quote
I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy!

That's debatable.  Depends how often his cars broke down and whether his kids need orthodontics and whether he stayed healthy.

 
Quote
Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.

Obviously, you have never known any Body Shop owners in Springfield, MO.  My nephew raced on the NASCAR dirt track there.  The guy who owned the majority interest in the track had the biggest car repair and body shop in SW Missouri.  He ran some nice carz.

Care to share with us where you fall in percentages on the Global Rich scale?

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 08:48:21 AM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Being in the upper2% Globally doesn't mean a whole lot when you have the Ameikan CoL to pay to live.  That's why you have to isolate that portion of the table to get comparitive measures of Amerikans.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: knarf on March 26, 2019, 08:51:47 AM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

This was about 2 years ago....

(https://economicfront.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/wealth-gap.png?w=550&h=346)

This one is about 4 years old

(http://liberalbias.com/images/content/income-gap.png)

Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Nearingsfault on March 26, 2019, 09:08:59 AM

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely.

Of course he is underfunded!  That's why he is in the "Poor" category! lol.  It is however the situation that about 40% of Amerikan retired people are in.

Quote
I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy!

That's debatable.  Depends how often his cars broke down and whether his kids need orthodontics and whether he stayed healthy.

 
Quote
Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.

Obviously, you have never known any Body Shop owners in Springfield, MO.  My nephew raced on the NASCAR dirt track there.  The guy who owned the majority interest in the track had the biggest car repair and body shop in SW Missouri.  He ran some nice carz.

Care to share with us where you fall in percentages on the Global Rich scale?

RE
[/quote]
1 percent income and 4 percent wealth.
It is skewed though as I included baby money in there. For 2 kids under 8 and as a single parent I receive about $1100 a month. Then there is health care which is not factored in; at my income I do not have to pay a supplement and receive full coverage but no dental which I self insure for the kids and I. Life insurance is odd I don't know how to calculate that. That and it reflects only the immediate picture since I spent many years earning far less.   
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 09:17:43 AM
That and it reflects only the immediate picture since I spent many years earning far less.

Oh of course.  Same here.  I spent many years earning a good deal more, and a few years earning less.  It's only a measure of your current situation.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 26, 2019, 10:38:16 AM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Right... in "global wealth inequality"  terms, it makes us look like we're about the same. Which isn't even true, really. But if you use some greatly skewed baseline that compares us both to a street kid in Pakistan, , it appears that way. Which was my point.

"Global Rich Lists" wouldn't even exist if somebody didn't have an agenda aimed at making western people more inclined to view grinding poverty in the 3rd world poverty as a "problem" needing to be "fixed". They aren't put up by real rich people trying to see if they're better off than their neighbors across the street.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
We're no closer here to getting a definition of Poor, Middle Class and Rich to work with.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 26, 2019, 11:03:38 AM
"Middle class" is a loaded word, just like 'rich' is a loaded word.

Most Americans are taught that if they have income above the poverty line, then that makes them middle class. Especially if they can hit that magic "median household income" number, which is now just over 60K.

Median net worth is about 97K. But older married people my age are worth 3 times that much.

How rich is that really? Well, if you put your 300k into a CD in the bank, it will return a whopping $700/ month...add that to your average Social Security check and it gets you to a whopping $2K per month.

So how middle class is that?  It's below the poverty line for a family of four. Spare me your middle class retirement. It sucks.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Paranthetically, Harald Eia who gave the TED talk isn't a practicing professional sociologist who works in academia.  He graduated witha "Candidates Degree" which is roughly equivalent to a Master's.  He's a Documentary filmmaker and comedian on Norwegian TV who is obviously on his own agenda.

Harald Eia - Brainwash


(https://agendaeurope.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/960x.jpg?w=656)

Here's one of his documentary series:

http://www.youtube.com/v/cVaTc15plVs

You can find more of the episodes HERE (https://agendaeurope.wordpress.com/harald-eia-hjaernevask-brainwash/).

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 01:20:32 PM
"Middle class" is a loaded word, just like 'rich' is a loaded word.

Most Americans are taught that if they have income above the poverty line, then that makes them middle class. Especially if they can hit that magic "median household income" number, which is now just over 60K.

Median net worth is about 97K. But older married people my age are worth 3 times that much.

How rich is that really? Well, if you put your 300k into a CD in the bank, it will return a whopping $700/ month...add that to your average Social Security check and it gets you to a whopping $2K per month.

So how middle class is that?  It's below the poverty line for a family of four. Spare me your middle class retirement. It sucks.

They may be "loaded" words, but we use them all the time when discussing wealth, and are commonly used by politicians, media, protesters, etc.

If we don't have a definition of what they mean, discussing this topic is impossible.

We are no closer to such a definition.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 26, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
"Middle class" is a loaded word, just like 'rich' is a loaded word.

Most Americans are taught that if they have income above the poverty line, then that makes them middle class. Especially if they can hit that magic "median household income" number, which is now just over 60K.

Median net worth is about 97K. But older married people my age are worth 3 times that much.

How rich is that really? Well, if you put your 300k into a CD in the bank, it will return a whopping $700/ month...add that to your average Social Security check and it gets you to a whopping $2K per month.

So how middle class is that?  It's below the poverty line for a family of four. Spare me your middle class retirement. It sucks.

They may be "loaded" words, but we use them all the time when discussing wealth, and are commonly used by politicians, media, protesters, etc.

If we don't have a definition of what they mean, discussing this topic is impossible.

We are no closer to such a definition.

RE

Sociological research into income and wealth with such a general scope is driven by highly motivated reasoning. People have a priori conclusions about wealth inequality and redistribution policies they want to justify and shine up with "hard data". As you point out, it's the kind of stuff "discussed" by politicians, activists and media.

The only numbers that should matter are extreme/absolute poverty and how quickly people are being lifted out of it. That gives us an idea how many more people can afford food, shelter, clothing, medicine that they couldn't the day before. The rest of it is just arbitrary measures of relative income/wealth used to make sweeping economic and political claims that are unwarranted.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 04:44:39 PM
The rest of it is just arbitrary measures of relative income/wealth used to make sweeping economic and political claims that are unwarranted.

Why are they "unwarranted"?  People are very concerned about their station in life relative to their neighbors.  "Keeping up with the Joneses" in the lexicon.  Jack down the street buys a New Tesla, Bill has to buy  new Mercedes EV to go him one better.

Besides that, you're bombarded every day in the media with the "Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous".  It's just not good enough you see to have a small McHovel on the wrong side of the tracks.  Everyone in the society aspires to be Kim Kardashian or Richard Branson.

Beyond THAT, if you are male and want to attract quality women, it takes $MONEY$ 🤑.  Trust me I know about this, been there, done that. own the T-shirt.

How much money you have is the measure of Status in this society, and status is very important among all primates, and plenty of other mammals also.

I hardly think anything beyond abject poverty is "unwaranted" in discussing wealth.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 26, 2019, 05:05:05 PM
The rest of it is just arbitrary measures of relative income/wealth used to make sweeping economic and political claims that are unwarranted.

Why are they "unwarranted"?  People are very concerned about their station in life relative to their neighbors.  "Keeping up with the Joneses" in the lexicon.  Jack down the street buys a New Tesla, Bill has to buy  new Mercedes EV to go him one better.

Besides that, you're bombarded every day in the media with the "Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous".  It's just not good enough you see to have a small McHovel on the wrong side of the tracks.  Everyone in the society aspires to be Kim Kardashian or Richard Branson.

Beyond THAT, if you are male and want to attract quality women, it takes $MONEY$ 🤑.  Trust me I know about this, been there, done that. own the T-shirt.

How much money you have is the measure of Status in this society, and status is very important among all primates, and plenty of other mammals also.

I hardly think anything beyond abject poverty is "unwaranted" in discussing wealth.

RE

Assuming you are right about everyone's concerns and aspirations, which is a big assumption, why should that be a matter for political debate? Let people deal with their individual concerns about their own level of relative wealth in their own ways.

It's only when we assume that this inequality must be the result of unfair coercion and exploitation at a systemic level that it becomes political fodder. Also, money is just one factor in someone's relative status, it's not the only factor. Focused and specific research by Martin Daly showed that most murders involving status inequality happened between men with basically the same amount of wealth (although the broader wealth inequality in their society played some role as well).
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 05:12:56 PM
It's only when we assume that this inequality must be the result of unfair coercion and exploitation at a systemic level that it becomes political fodder.

I don't agree with that, but it's tangential to the central question here, which is where on the Wealth Line in the FSoA do people stop being Poor and become Middle Class, and when do Middle Class people stop being Middle Class and become Rich?  ???  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 26, 2019, 09:20:32 PM

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Being in the upper2% Globally doesn't mean a whole lot when you have the Ameikan CoL to pay to live.  That's why you have to isolate that portion of the table to get comparitive measures of Amerikans.

RE

We are still on the downward slope but not the flat tail.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 26, 2019, 09:28:45 PM
If you take the job or social security away and you are toast you are middle class.  If the inconvenience of losing a job is a chance to reposition yourself and find new opportunities, then you are a rich bitch.  If your sorry ass has no job and you sponge off other people to get by; you be poor.

The definition needs to include those who have a shit job and a bozo or two to support as also being poor.

With a few pages full of distinguishing characteristics like those above a poll could be made.  Taking it a person would disclose assets and savings for later correlation (this is hypothetical since people lie) after the totality of all their other responses binned them into social classes.  Assets and savings would correlate against the binned class results to answer your question as a dependent variable.  The independent variables are all the other questions which would be in the quiz.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 26, 2019, 10:22:04 PM
If you take the job or social security away and you are toast you are middle class.  If the inconvenience of losing a job is a chance to reposition yourself and find new opportunities, then you are a rich bitch.  If your sorry ass has no job and you sponge off other people to get by; you be poor.

I need Dollar figures.

RE
Title: 🤑 "How Rich are you?" Now UP on GEI!
Post by: RE on March 27, 2019, 05:21:33 AM
http://econintersect.com/pages/opinion/opinion.php?post=201903262349   :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 27, 2019, 06:00:27 PM
It's only when we assume that this inequality must be the result of unfair coercion and exploitation at a systemic level that it becomes political fodder.

I don't agree with that, but it's tangential to the central question here, which is where on the Wealth Line in the FSoA do people stop being Poor and become Middle Class, and when do Middle Class people stop being Middle Class and become Rich?  ???  :icon_sunny:

RE

What if that question doesn't have an answer? There's no reason to think that all broad socioeconomic questions like that have good answers, ones which remain stable over any meaningful span of time. In fact, the words "poor", "middle class" and "rich" may be meaningless words.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 27, 2019, 10:54:19 PM
It's only when we assume that this inequality must be the result of unfair coercion and exploitation at a systemic level that it becomes political fodder.

I don't agree with that, but it's tangential to the central question here, which is where on the Wealth Line in the FSoA do people stop being Poor and become Middle Class, and when do Middle Class people stop being Middle Class and become Rich?  ???  :icon_sunny:

RE

What if that question doesn't have an answer? There's no reason to think that all broad socioeconomic questions like that have good answers, ones which remain stable over any meaningful span of time. In fact, the words "poor", "middle class" and "rich" may be meaningless words.

The words are very meaningful.  That's why they are used do often.

We are able to draw a "Poverty Line",  here in the FSoA.  Here's the 2018 Table for the FSoA:

Number of People in Household48 States & DCAlaskaHawaii
One $12,490 $15,600 $14,380
Two $16,910 $21,130 $19,460
Three $21,330 $26,660 $24,540
Four $25,750 $32,190 $29,620
Five $30,170 $37,720 $34,700
Six $34,590 $43,250 $39,780
Seven $39,010 $48,780 $44,860
Eight $43,430 $54,310 $49,940
For nine or more, add this amount for each additional person $4,420 $5,530 $5,0

All you have to do is the same thing at the other end.  It's not Rocket Science.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 28, 2019, 06:22:39 AM
It's only when we assume that this inequality must be the result of unfair coercion and exploitation at a systemic level that it becomes political fodder.

I don't agree with that, but it's tangential to the central question here, which is where on the Wealth Line in the FSoA do people stop being Poor and become Middle Class, and when do Middle Class people stop being Middle Class and become Rich?  ???  :icon_sunny:

RE

What if that question doesn't have an answer? There's no reason to think that all broad socioeconomic questions like that have good answers, ones which remain stable over any meaningful span of time. In fact, the words "poor", "middle class" and "rich" may be meaningless words.

The words are very meaningful.  That's why they are used do often.

We are able to draw a "Poverty Line",  here in the FSoA.  Here's the 2018 Table for the FSoA:

<table class="mntl-sc-block-table__table">
<thead>
<tr><th>Number of People in Household</th><th>48 States & DC</th><th>Alaska</th><th>Hawaii</th></tr>
</thead>
<tbody data-check="0">
<tr><th>One</th>
<td>$12,490</td>
<td>$15,600</td>
<td>$14,380</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Two</th>
<td>$16,910</td>
<td>$21,130</td>
<td>$19,460</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Three</th>
<td>$21,330</td>
<td>$26,660</td>
<td>$24,540</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Four</th>
<td>$25,750</td>
<td>$32,190</td>
<td>$29,620</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Five</th>
<td>$30,170</td>
<td>$37,720</td>
<td>$34,700</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Six</th>
<td>$34,590</td>
<td>$43,250</td>
<td>$39,780</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Seven</th>
<td>$39,010</td>
<td>$48,780</td>
<td>$44,860</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>Eight</th>
<td>$43,430</td>
<td>$54,310</td>
<td>$49,940</td>
</tr>
<tr><th>For nine or more, add this amount for each additional person</th>
<td>$4,420</td>
<td>$5,530</td>
<td>$5,0</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

All you have to do is the same thing at the other end.  It's not Rocket Science.

RE

The numerous ways of thinking about "poverty" or being "poor" exhibited on this thread is evidence that a single category like that cannot meaningfully capture the actual state of someone's financial well-being. My experience with clients who fall below and above the poverty line suggests the same thing. Plenty of people well above the poverty line qualify for Ch 7 bankruptcy, for ex. The same thing would apply for the other end of the spectrum. And that's just in this country. If you try to generalize to the global economy, it becomes even more meaningless.

The exceptions to this may be the people in absolute poverty who cannot afford the basic necessities, or billionaires.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 06:54:33 AM
The same thing would apply for the other end of the spectrum. And that's just in this country. If you try to generalize to the global economy, it becomes even more meaningless.

It's obviously not "meaningless".  It's used to determine what bennies a given person is qualified for.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 28, 2019, 12:04:58 PM
The same thing would apply for the other end of the spectrum. And that's just in this country. If you try to generalize to the global economy, it becomes even more meaningless.

It's obviously not "meaningless".  It's used to determine what bennies a given person is qualified for.

RE

Fine, let me be more specific. The words "poor", "middle class" and "rich" are not useful when they are used to categorize any objective state of a person's financial well-being. The income thresholds are useful when governments want to give out benefits or determine tax rates.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 12:15:49 PM
The income thresholds are useful when governments want to give out benefits or determine tax rates.

Well, that's the practical application we are concerned with here, so it needs to be specified.  Otherwise, you can't have a discussion about it.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: monsta666 on March 28, 2019, 01:11:30 PM
I don't think it is all that difficult to define middle-class. Middle-class would generally be something in the middle of a countries income distribution. I suppose something between 30th-70th percentile. Now that roughly equates to an income of between $35,000 and $90,000 if you go by the US census figures of 2014.  You can adjust the percentiles to a figure of your choice but the salary figures listed would not change a great deal. I am pretty confident your salary Eddie falls outside this range thus in my eyes I would consider you to be upper class. Going by those figures I would be classed as growing up in an upper class family. It is no big deal and should not be seen as a shameful thing.

There is a perception that if you part of the upper class then you are some sort of millionaire who owns a Ferrari, has a holiday home a yacht perhaps and can simply live the life of a millionaire. That is often not the case for many upper class people and on that point I would agree with you. However just because that point is true doesn't not make the term middle-class any more ambiguous. Middle-class to me is a simple terminology that simply reflects the fact your income is somewhat close to the national average. If your income is significantly below that mark you are working class and if considerably higher then you are upper class. I don't think there is a need for complex debate about what class is. People of the professional class (read doctors, lawyers, accountants) are in almost all countries part of the upper class. They are not big ballers but they do lead comfortable lifes at least from a financial perspective.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 28, 2019, 01:22:16 PM
The income thresholds are useful when governments want to give out benefits or determine tax rates.

Well, that's the practical application we are concerned with here, so it needs to be specified.  Otherwise, you can't have a discussion about it.

RE

Yeah, but I'm saying at the end of the day it's all going to be arbitrary. It's not going to be based on some objective measure of how many people are poor, middle class and rich. People who claim to have those measures are just trying to achieve some political end, i.e. increase/decrease government benefits or taxation because it fits their political ideology.

The best we can do is maybe have specific studies about specific people in specific communities who need specific benefits at specific times, or what people in what communities can afford to pay what taxes at what time. This is a good reason why most of this stuff should be as localized as possible.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 01:32:27 PM
I don't think it is all that difficult to define middle-class. Middle-class would generally be something in the middle of a countries income distribution. I suppose something between 30th-70th percentile. Now that roughly equates to an income of between $35,000 and $90,000 if you go by the US census figures of 2014.  You can adjust the percentiles to a figure of your choice but the salary figures listed would not change a great deal. I am pretty confident your salary Eddie falls outside this range thus in my eyes I would consider you to be upper class. Going by those figures I would be classed as growing up in an upper class family. It is no big deal and should not be seen as a shameful thing.

There is a perception that if you part of the upper class then you are some sort of millionaire who owns a Ferrari, has a holiday home a yacht perhaps and can simply live the life of a millionaire. That is often not the case for many upper class people and on that point I would agree with you. However just because that point is true doesn't not make the term middle-class any more ambiguous. Middle-class to me is a simple terminology that simply reflects the fact your income is somewhat close to the national average. If your income is significantly below that mark you are working class and if considerably higher then you are upper class. I don't think there is a need for complex debate about what class is. People of the professional class (read doctors, lawyers, accountants) are in almost all countries part of the upper class. They are not big ballers but they do lead comfortable lifes at least from a financial perspective.

I agree with that 100%, which brings us back to the Bell Curve of Income Distribution in the FSoA.

US Income Distribution b
US Income Distribution b

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 28, 2019, 02:35:10 PM
I don't think it is all that difficult to define middle-class. Middle-class would generally be something in the middle of a countries income distribution. I suppose something between 30th-70th percentile. Now that roughly equates to an income of between $35,000 and $90,000 if you go by the US census figures of 2014.  You can adjust the percentiles to a figure of your choice but the salary figures listed would not change a great deal. I am pretty confident your salary Eddie falls outside this range thus in my eyes I would consider you to be upper class. Going by those figures I would be classed as growing up in an upper class family. It is no big deal and should not be seen as a shameful thing.

There is a perception that if you part of the upper class then you are some sort of millionaire who owns a Ferrari, has a holiday home a yacht perhaps and can simply live the life of a millionaire. That is often not the case for many upper class people and on that point I would agree with you. However just because that point is true doesn't not make the term middle-class any more ambiguous. Middle-class to me is a simple terminology that simply reflects the fact your income is somewhat close to the national average. If your income is significantly below that mark you are working class and if considerably higher then you are upper class. I don't think there is a need for complex debate about what class is. People of the professional class (read doctors, lawyers, accountants) are in almost all countries part of the upper class. They are not big ballers but they do lead comfortable lifes at least from a financial perspective.

I'm not in complete disagreement here, but would like to point out a couple of things

One is that middle class is often defined by things other than strictly income. That's one reason why people want to attend university. Being college educated makes people think they're middle class. So does owning one's home. So does...being able to afford certain things, like dining out, or having discretionary income. These things might be more or less affordable in a different locale. It costs more to be middle class in Manhattan, NY than it does in Manhattan, Kansas.

The other is that not all "experts" agree with your numbers exactly. It's a rather broad term, middle class.

Middle Class
REVIEWED BY WILL KENTON   Updated Jan 4, 2018
DEFINITION of Middle Class
The middle class is a description given to individuals and households who fall between the working class and the upper class within a societal hierarchy. In Western cultures, persons in the middle class tend to have a higher proportion of college degrees than those in the working class, have more income available for consumption and may own property. Those in the middle class often are employed as professionals, managers and civil servants.

BREAKING DOWN Middle Class
The word "middle" may be misleading in that it suggests that those in the middle class have earnings within the middle of the population's income distribution, which may not be the case.

Karl Marx referred to the middle class as part of the bourgeoisie when he described capitalism. The term itself has shifted in meaning over time, having once referred to persons who had the means to rival nobles.

What Constitutes the Middle Class
The birth of the middle class, in some respects, has been linked to federal funding and support through programs such as the G.I. Bill, which offered funds for education and the start of businesses created by veterans who were discharged. The combination of incentives and salary increases helped elevate working class citizens into the newly forming middle class.

The income parameters that define the middle class continue to change and not solely based on the rate of inflation. Regional disparities in income and the cost of living mean that salary-based measures of the middle class can vary greatly. Different income barometers describe the middle class as having income from $50,000 to $150,000 or, in some instances, $42,000 to $125,000. Other measures of middle class set the upper income mark at $250,000.

The concept of middle-class society may include a presumption of earning a salary that supports owning a resident in a suburban or comparable neighborhood in rural or urban settings, along with discretionary income that allows for access to entertainment and other flexible expenses such as travel or dining out. While it is assumed that middle-class households generate sufficient income for retirement savings along with standard expenses, an increasing segment of this portion of the American population is also living paycheck to paycheck.

An ideal commonly held among the middle class is that it is possible to increase their income to higher economic strata through career advancement and salary upgrades. The pace of such upward mobility aspirations, however, have changed over the decades with the costs of goods and services, in some cases outpacing the growth of salaries.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/middle-class.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/middle-class.asp)
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 28, 2019, 02:51:27 PM
And the term "Upper Class" definitely means very different things to different people.

I consider myself and most other doctors, lawyers and other high earning professional people to MOSTLY be upper-middle class.

Upper class, to me, implies someone who has easy access to capital, inherited wealth, high net worth, or (in Europe) an inherited title.

In the US, being an Ivy League graduate is at least an invitation to the upper class.

Someone who has taken a company public and owns valuable equity....things like that.

If you have to get up and go to work every day to keep up your lifestyle, it's unlikely that you're upper class, even if you make a half million dollars a year. Some upper-middle class people BECOME upper class, by saving and investing, usually leveraging their savings to make it happen.

Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 03:12:21 PM

If you have to get up and go to work every day to keep up your lifestyle, it's unlikely that you're upper class, even if you make a half million dollars a year. Some upper-middle class people BECOME upper class, by saving and investing, usually leveraging their savings to make it happen.

It doesn't matter weather your money is from a day job or passive investments.  You class is strictly determined by how much money you have in Amerika.  There's no Royals, no Caste system.  Money buys you inot the "right" neighborhood and puts your kids in Private School if you so desire.  It buys you into the Country Club where you can hobknob and network with others who can afford that.  It buys you First Class tickets on jet planes, so you get to board before the Hoi Polloi, eat better food and sit in big comfy wide seats (or mini-cabins now from British Airways!).  etc.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 28, 2019, 05:35:26 PM

If you have to get up and go to work every day to keep up your lifestyle, it's unlikely that you're upper class, even if you make a half million dollars a year. Some upper-middle class people BECOME upper class, by saving and investing, usually leveraging their savings to make it happen.

It doesn't matter weather your money is from a day job or passive investments.  You class is strictly determined by how much money you have in Amerika.  There's no Royals, no Caste system.  Money buys you inot the "right" neighborhood and puts your kids in Private School if you so desire.  It buys you into the Country Club where you can hobknob and network with others who can afford that.  It buys you First Class tickets on jet planes, so you get to board before the Hoi Polloi, eat better food and sit in big comfy wide seats (or mini-cabins now from British Airways!).  etc.

RE
In general, upper class people have WEALTH, which means they have income from money and not just income from a job. To me, that's an incredibly obvious line of separation.

There are about 75,000 people in the US who are each worth more than 30 million (and get this, that's liquid assets, not personal real estate).

It interesting to me where we put that UHNWI designation Most do put it at 30M.....The snottiest wealth reporting agency is the Boston Group (natch) and they say ultra wealth begins at 100M.

People who make even 500K ( a good specialist physician, maybe) and pay 35-45% of that in tax? That is not where the problem lies. It's higher up the food chain. Those doctors are the most productive citizens we have, and they make the biggest contributions to our society, the biggest proportional tax sacrifices of anybody.

The biggest problem is the way our paid-for tax legislation allows people with huge wealth to pass their assets to the next generation largely tax-free. If a man's wealth died with him, the world would a better place, I expect.

What I am trying to get across is that there is a good size class of really shockingly rich people in our "classless" country. And abroad too, for that matter.

World-wide, they account for .003% of the population, but they own 13% of the assets.

That's where it gets off the rails. Letting those guys gift too much to their kids.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 28, 2019, 06:11:15 PM
When these people with more than 30M are sick for work who do they call?
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 28, 2019, 06:19:01 PM

If you have to get up and go to work every day to keep up your lifestyle, it's unlikely that you're upper class, even if you make a half million dollars a year. Some upper-middle class people BECOME upper class, by saving and investing, usually leveraging their savings to make it happen.

It doesn't matter weather your money is from a day job or passive investments.  You class is strictly determined by how much money you have in Amerika.  There's no Royals, no Caste system.  Money buys you inot the "right" neighborhood and puts your kids in Private School if you so desire.  It buys you into the Country Club where you can hobknob and network with others who can afford that.  It buys you First Class tickets on jet planes, so you get to board before the Hoi Polloi, eat better food and sit in big comfy wide seats (or mini-cabins now from British Airways!).  etc.

RE

Half a million a year could let a man retire at thirty if he started earning it in his early twenties but a young woman would most likely muck things up.  Hormones and inexperience would do most young men in.  I used to think it sucked that older men made bank compared to younger men.  When I was young and stupid that is.  Now that I'm an old fart I think the arrangement works out great.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 07:08:34 PM
In general, upper class people have WEALTH, which means they have income from money and not just income from a job. To me, that's an incredibly obvious line of separation.

When you pay the tuition at Choate or Phillips Andover, it doesn't make any difference where the money comes from.

(http://www.myrecordjournal.com/getattachment/4c820a23-b62b-4db5-aac4-0ac342387629/choate_08)

 

Tuition and Fees

2019-20 Academic Year

Boarding
 
Day
 
Tuition $ 59,990   $ 46,190  
Technology Fee $ 960   $ 960  
Total Tuition and Fees $ 60,950   $ 47,150  

You can be dealing drugs or making book, drilling teeth or selling stocks, win the Lotto or have a Trust fund, it doesn't matter at the Bursar's Office.  All the same, no difference, no separation.

RE

Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: K-Dog on March 28, 2019, 09:17:57 PM
In general, upper class people have WEALTH, which means they have income from money and not just income from a job. To me, that's an incredibly obvious line of separation.

When you pay the tuition at Choate or Phillips Andover, it doesn't make any difference where the money comes from.

(http://www.myrecordjournal.com/getattachment/4c820a23-b62b-4db5-aac4-0ac342387629/choate_08)


You can be dealing drugs or making book, drilling teeth or selling stocks, win the Lotto or have a Trust fund, it doesn't matter at the Bursar's Office.  All the same, no difference, no separation.

RE

There are a variety of classes taught at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. These include both the core curriculum and the electives, available from third year forward. In the fifth year, students take the Ordinary Wizarding Level (O.W.L.) exams to determine whether they can achieve a score high enough to continue to N.E.W.T.-level (Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Test) for the class in the remaining two years. Some classes, including the core classes, may be dropped in sixth year. Specialised classes such as Alchemy become available in sixth year provided there is sufficient demand.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 28, 2019, 10:06:01 PM

There are a variety of classes taught at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. These include both the core curriculum and the electives, available from third year forward. In the fifth year, students take the Ordinary Wizarding Level (O.W.L.) exams to determine whether they can achieve a score high enough to continue to N.E.W.T.-level (Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Test) for the class in the remaining two years. Some classes, including the core classes, may be dropped in sixth year. Specialised classes such as Alchemy become available in sixth year provided there is sufficient demand.

Did J.K. Rowling ever mention what the TUTITION was at Hogwarts?  Ever notice all the Wannabee Wizards had Upper Class Brit Accents?  It's like they were all Tories.  No Labour kids at all in that bunch.

You gotta be $RICH$ 🤑 to be a Wizard in England.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 29, 2019, 04:01:46 AM

If you have to get up and go to work every day to keep up your lifestyle, it's unlikely that you're upper class, even if you make a half million dollars a year. Some upper-middle class people BECOME upper class, by saving and investing, usually leveraging their savings to make it happen.

It doesn't matter weather your money is from a day job or passive investments.  You class is strictly determined by how much money you have in Amerika.  There's no Royals, no Caste system.  Money buys you inot the "right" neighborhood and puts your kids in Private School if you so desire.  It buys you into the Country Club where you can hobknob and network with others who can afford that.  It buys you First Class tickets on jet planes, so you get to board before the Hoi Polloi, eat better food and sit in big comfy wide seats (or mini-cabins now from British Airways!).  etc.

RE

Half a million a year could let a man retire at thirty if he started earning it in his early twenties but a young woman would most likely muck things up.  Hormones and inexperience would do most young men in.  I used to think it sucked that older men made bank compared to younger men.  When I was young and stupid that is.  Now that I'm an old fart I think the arrangement works out great.

I was a student until I was 35, counting the last two years, when I did make some income, but still had to work for free too..

Then, at 35, i got to figure out how I could borrow some money (about 100K @12.5%) to START a business. The good money comes on the back end, not the front end. And only if you do well. Show up. Don't blow it and have four or five divorces.

RE takes none of that stuff into his calculus for how to divided the pie. I'm just a guy who could have been a garbage man, except white privilege.

I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 29, 2019, 04:17:57 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Eddie on March 29, 2019, 04:51:04 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE

That's a UNION garbageman working in the highest paid urban center in the world, and it's the way it USED to be, when pension funds were actually THERE at the end. If that's still possible it won't be for much longer.

My uncle went down pretty fast after he quit work. He drank too much his whole life and when he stopped the daily physical labor, diabetes and and the usual self-inflicted ailments took him down fast. I think they gave him painkillers too. The last time I saw him he had gone from being this little Irish-looking leprechaun to a bloated, obese pile of human misery.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 29, 2019, 09:26:19 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE

That's a UNION garbageman working in the highest paid urban center in the world, and it's the way it USED to be, when pension funds were actually THERE at the end. If that's still possible it won't be for much longer.

My uncle went down pretty fast after he quit work. He drank too much his whole life and when he stopped the daily physical labor, diabetes and and the usual self-inflicted ailments took him down fast. I think they gave him painkillers too. The last time I saw him he had gone from being this little Irish-looking leprechaun to a bloated, obese pile of human misery.

That's another thing to consider. If an illness or accident can take you out of the upper or middle class just like that, and those things happen all the time, how meaningful is it to talk about who is upper or middle class?
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 29, 2019, 09:32:50 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE

That's a UNION garbageman working in the highest paid urban center in the world, and it's the way it USED to be, when pension funds were actually THERE at the end. If that's still possible it won't be for much longer.

My uncle went down pretty fast after he quit work. He drank too much his whole life and when he stopped the daily physical labor, diabetes and and the usual self-inflicted ailments took him down fast. I think they gave him painkillers too. The last time I saw him he had gone from being this little Irish-looking leprechaun to a bloated, obese pile of human misery.

That's another thing to consider. If an illness or accident can take you out of the upper or middle class just like that, and those things happen all the time, how meaningful is it to talk about who is upper or middle class?

You're a lot less likely to drop out of the Rich than the Middle Class with an unexpected illness.  So, very meaningful.

RE
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: Ashvin on March 29, 2019, 09:50:13 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE

That's a UNION garbageman working in the highest paid urban center in the world, and it's the way it USED to be, when pension funds were actually THERE at the end. If that's still possible it won't be for much longer.

My uncle went down pretty fast after he quit work. He drank too much his whole life and when he stopped the daily physical labor, diabetes and and the usual self-inflicted ailments took him down fast. I think they gave him painkillers too. The last time I saw him he had gone from being this little Irish-looking leprechaun to a bloated, obese pile of human misery.

That's another thing to consider. If an illness or accident can take you out of the upper or middle class just like that, and those things happen all the time, how meaningful is it to talk about who is upper or middle class?

You're a lot less likely to drop out of the Rich than the Middle Class with an unexpected illness.  So, very meaningful.

RE

Why? Even assuming your insurance covers most of the costs, if it's severe enough to prevent you from working full time or perhaps at all, it won't take you long to start losing significant income and assets.
Title: Re: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Re
Post by: RE on March 29, 2019, 11:53:38 AM
I had an uncle who WAS a garbage man. I know the difference.

So do I.  Garbage Men Sanitation Engineers are Middle Class.  I had a cousin who was an SE for NYC.  Union Job, pretty good pay and you could retire early.  He did 25 years and retired at 45.

RE

That's a UNION garbageman working in the highest paid urban center in the world, and it's the way it USED to be, when pension funds were actually THERE at the end. If that's still possible it won't be for much longer.

My uncle went down pretty fast after he quit work. He drank too much his whole life and when he stopped the daily physical labor, diabetes and and the usual self-inflicted ailments took him down fast. I think they gave him painkillers too. The last time I saw him he had gone from being this little Irish-looking leprechaun to a bloated, obese pile of human misery.

That's another thing to consider. If an illness or accident can take you out of the upper or middle class just like that, and those things happen all the time, how meaningful is it to talk about who is upper or middle class?

You're a lot less likely to drop out of the Rich than the Middle Class with an unexpected illness.  So, very meaningful.

RE

Why? Even assuming your insurance covers most of the costs, if it's severe enough to prevent you from working full time or perhaps at all, it won't take you long to start losing significant income and assets.

First of all, Rich people can afford more comprehensive insurance with lower deductibles.  If you are say a member of the "lower rich" (we'll subdivide the classes some more) making $300K after taxes you can spend $5K/month on insurance with a low deductible for $60K per year for 20% of your income.

A "Middle" Middle Class person making $60K after taxes could maybe spend $2K.month, have a larger deductible and that would be 40% of his income.  Beyond that, the rich person can self-insure as well, sell off some of his portfolio or real estate to handle a big illness and not fall out of the class and into destitution.

You have a much bigger buffer if you are rich.

RE
Title: 🛌 How Big or Tiny of an Apartment Can the Median Household Income Afford
Post by: RE on April 11, 2019, 03:10:09 AM
I won't be moving back to NY Shity anytime soon.  ::)

RE

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&biw=1440&bih=725&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=UBGvXJv3MIHQ9APolK3ICw&q=capsule+apartment&oq=capsule+apartment&gs_l=img.3..0i30l4j0i5i30l3j0i8i30.46024.50309..52594...0.0..0.169.883.0j7......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30.e4k_qdbFj6s#imgrc=1tceVGeB-olUiM: (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&biw=1440&bih=725&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=UBGvXJv3MIHQ9APolK3ICw&q=capsule+apartment&oq=capsule+apartment&gs_l=img.3..0i30l4j0i5i30l3j0i8i30.46024.50309..52594...0.0..0.169.883.0j7......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30.e4k_qdbFj6s#imgrc=1tceVGeB-olUiM:)


How Big or Tiny of an Apartment Can the Median Household Income Afford to Rent in the 100 Largest US Cities?


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/a7/08/70a7085ecb94ecf5ea753f4f62263bbe.jpg)

How Big or Tiny of an Apartment Can the Median Household Income Afford to Rent in the 100 Largest US Cities?

In some cities, you get what is considered a walk-in closet of a McMansion.

It’s not totally fair to compare rents in Tulsa with rents in San Francisco because household incomes are different as well. One way to look at this is to figure out how big of an apartment a household can rent by paying 30% of the local median household income in rent. And you guessed it, in a number of cities the local median household income, as high as it may be, can only rent what would be considered a walk-in closet in a McMansion.

Many households in expensive cities such as New York City or San Francisco pay far more in rent than the 30% of their pre-tax household income. 50% is not unheard of. The median asking rent for a two-bedroom apartment in San Francisco currently runs $4,600 a month.

A household signing the lease today would have to make $184,000 a year before taxes to spend 30% of their income on rent. If that household makes “only” $110,000 in income, rent would eat up 50% of pre-tax household income.

So here is a look at the 100 most populous US cities (with New York City broken up into its boroughs), and what size apartment a household earning the median household income can afford by paying 30% of their pre-tax income in rent.

The analysis was done by RENTCafe, using average rent data from Yardi Matrix and median household income data from the Census Bureau’s 2017 ACS, adjusted for inflation to reflect 2019 values. Household income includes all forms of pretax income from wages, interest, dividends, Social Security, etc., earned by all members over the age of 15, but does not include capital gains. Median household income means that 50% earn more, and 50% earn less.

Average apartment size varies by city.

Before we get to what apartment size they can afford, there is the issue of average size, which varies sharply by city. The table below shows the 10 cities with the smallest average apartments. They include the usual suspects with the highest rents: Honolulu with the most minuscule average apartment size of 561 square feet, but also three boroughs of New York City (Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens), Seattle, San Francisco, Washington DC, and Chicago … and the unusual suspect, Paradise, NV. If your smartphone clips the table on the right, hold your device in landscape position:

  City/Borough State Avg size Avg. rent
1 Honolulu  HI 561 $1,603
2 Brooklyn  NY 697 $2,796
3 Seattle  WA 698 $2,045
4 Newark  NJ 704 $1,176
5 Manhattan NY 723 $4,113
6 Queens  NY 731 $2,195
7 Washington  DC 745 $2,133
8 Chicago  IL 747 $1,898
9 San Francisco  CA 748 $3,607
10 Paradise  NV 753 $863

At the other end of the spectrum are the cities with the largest average apartment sizes, all of them close to 1,000 square feet, and the sport reasonable average rents:

  City/Borough State Avg size Avg. rent
1 Henderson  NV 991 $1,261
2 Chesapeake  VA 979 $1,207
3 Atlanta  GA 978 $1,425
4 Virginia Beach  VA 972 $1,176
5 Jacksonville  FL 966 $1,063
6 Gilbert  AZ 962 $1,240
7 Raleigh  NC 960 $1,164
8 Orlando  FL 958 $1,402
9 North Las Vegas  NV 958 $1,050
10 Scottsdale  AZ 948 $1,471

So what size apartment can that household afford?

To answer that question, RENTCafe looked at how many square feet you can rent with 30% of the median income of renter-occupied households, given the average rent per square foot in that city.

In only 14 of the 100 cities can 30% of this median household income rent an apartment that is larger than average for that city. At the top is Gilbert, AZ, where this household can afford the largest apartment (1,174 square feet). Some of the cities are on the list because household incomes are very high, and others are on this list because rents are low and apartments are on average larger:

  City/Borough State Afford size Avg size Avg. rent
1 Gilbert  AZ 1,174 962 $1,240
2 Plano  TX 1,137 935 $1,278
3 Wichita  KS 965 792 $643
4 Tulsa  OK 960 820 $685
5 Chandler  AZ 1,069 940 $1,287
6 Oklahoma City  OK 973 849 $754
7 Virginia Beach  VA 1,077 972 $1,176
8 North Las Vegas  NV 1,033 958 $1,050
9 Irving  TX 912 852 $1,146
10 Paradise  NV 790 753 $863
11 Arlington  VA 902 866 $2,149
12 Fremont  CA 843 831 $2,406
13 Henderson  NV 995 991 $1,261
14 Bakersfield  CA 862 861 $992

And finally, here are all 100 cities in order of how big or tiny of an apartment, in square feet, these folks can rent with 30% of the median household income. For example, in Brooklyn’s case, these folks can afford to rent a bare room of 15 by 18 square feet, which is not exactly huge. You can search the list with the search function in your browser. If your smartphone clips the table on the right, hold your device in landscape position:

  City/Borough State Afford size Avg size Avg. rent
1 Brooklyn  NY 265 697 $2,796
2 Boston  MA 266 813 $3,325
3 Manhattan NY 290 723 $4,113
4 Los Angeles  CA 333 792 $2,463
5 Oakland  CA 340 794 $2,684
6 Philadelphia  PA 368 798 $1,592
7 Chicago  IL 370 747 $1,898
8 Cleveland  OH 372 805 $1,076
9 Jersey City  NJ 372 832 $2,925
10 Detroit  MI 376 803 $1,055
11 Hialeah  FL 376 830 $1,363
12 Miami  FL 388 892 $1,692
13 San Francisco  CA 407 748 $3,607
14 Queens  NY 419 731 $2,195
15 Newark  NJ 437 704 $1,176
16 Long Beach  CA 443 797 $2,006
17 Buffalo  NY 448 781 $1,061
18 Honolulu  HI 463 561 $1,603
19 Washington  DC 465 745 $2,133
20 Minneapolis  MN 465 790 $1,551
21 Seattle  WA 479 698 $2,045
22 New Orleans  LA 515 897 $1,133
23 Santa Ana  CA 516 862 $1,922
24 Milwaukee  WI 519 854 $1,158
25 Pittsburgh  PA 521 816 $1,210
26 Portland  OR 534 769 $1,480
27 Baltimore  MD 541 823 $1,253
28 St. Paul  MN 544 829 $1,260
29 San Jose  CA 551 885 $2,706
30 San Diego  CA 552 876 $2,154
31 Cincinnati  OH 563 871 $972
32 Chula Vista  CA 565 866 $1,729
33 Denver  CO 572 840 $1,618
34 Stockton  CA 573 790 $1,144
35 Anaheim  CA 585 845 $1,786
36 Riverside  CA 589 844 $1,538
37 Sacramento  CA 600 823 $1,370
38 Baton Rouge  LA 611 942 $1,040
39 Tampa  FL 619 925 $1,298
40 Richmond  VA 620 867 $1,081
41 Tucson  AZ 621 757 $856
42 Atlanta  GA 621 978 $1,425
43 St. Louis  MO 632 840 $923
44 Nashville  TN 639 889 $1,335
45 Fresno  CA 640 895 $1,059
46 St. Petersburg  FL 642 873 $1,282
47 Reno  NV 652 853 $1,237
48 Madison  WI 654 845 $1,233
49 Orlando  FL 656 958 $1,402
50 Aurora  CO 668 841 $1,325
51 Toledo  OH 678 812 $713
52 Dallas  TX 679 844 $1,199
53 Glendale  AZ 695 793 $953
54 Albuquerque  NM 717 812 $869
55 Irvine  CA 717 917 $2,380
56 Norfolk  VA 719 881 $1,071
57 Phoenix  AZ 727 799 $1,037
58 Colorado Springs  CO 741 837 $1,122
59 Winston-Salem  NC 750 918 $841
60 Mesa  AZ 751 810 $1,009
61 Austin  TX 751 864 $1,369
62 San Antonio  TX 756 853 $1,018
63 Houston  TX 757 879 $1,094
64 Louisville  KY 766 932 $941
65 Arlington  TX 771 824 $1,012
66 Durham  NC 777 937 $1,132
67 Fort Worth  TX 788 871 $1,088
68 Lubbock  TX 788 914 $927
69 Paradise  NV 790 753 $863
70 Lincoln  NE 796 943 $959
71 Indianapolis  IN 797 879 $858
72 Kansas City  MO 798 899 $979
73 El Paso  TX 800 814 $770
74 Memphis  TN 806 910 $788
75 Garland  TX 807 870 $1,036
76 Lexington  KY 810 901 $898
77 Las Vegas  NV 820 894 $1,051
78 Charlotte  NC 825 944 $1,190
79 Jacksonville  FL 838 966 $1,063
80 Fremont  CA 843 831 $2,406
81 Corpus Christi  TX 845 849 $965
82 Greensboro  NC 858 937 $876
83 Bakersfield  CA 862 861 $992
84 Fort Wayne  IN 866 882 $760
85 Columbus  OH 878 885 $918
86 Raleigh  NC 893 960 $1,164
87 Arlington  VA 902 866 $2,149
88 Omaha  NE 905 924 $905
89 Irving  TX 912 852 $1,146
90 Chesapeake  VA 914 979 $1,207
91 Scottsdale  AZ 924 948 $1,471
92 Tulsa  OK 960 820 $685
93 Wichita  KS 965 792 $643
94 Oklahoma City  OK 973 849 $754
95 Henderson  NV 995 991 $1,261
96 North Las Vegas  NV 1,033 958 $1,050
97 Chandler  AZ 1,069 940 $1,287
98 Virginia Beach  VA 1,077 972 $1,176
99 Plano  TX 1,137 935 $1,278
100 Gilbert  AZ 1,174 962 $1,240
Title: 💰 5 Jaw-Dropping Stats About Americans' Retirement Savings
Post by: RE on April 15, 2019, 01:33:26 AM
No surprise here.  My Jaw didn't Drop.

RE

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2019/04/14/5-jaw-dropping-stats-about-americans-retirement-sa.aspx (https://www.fool.com/retirement/2019/04/14/5-jaw-dropping-stats-about-americans-retirement-sa.aspx)

5 Jaw-Dropping Stats About Americans' Retirement Savings
No. 3: Americans are leaving $24 billion in unclaimed 401(k) matches on the table.
Kailey Fralick
(TMFKailey)
Apr 14, 2019 at 12:43PM

We think of retirement as a relaxing, carefree time in our lives when we can do whatever we please, but for many working Americans today, retirement will be more of a nightmare than a dream. Study after study has shown that many Americans are well behind where they should be in terms of retirement savings, and if they don't take steps today to fix this, they could end up running out of money or working far longer than they planned.

Here are some of the most shocking statistics about Americans' retirement savings and some advice on how you can get yours back on track.
(https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2Feditorial%2Fimages%2F518333%2Fsurprised-man-with-mouth-hanging-open-jaw-drop-shocked-disbelief.jpg&w=700&op=resize)
Image source: Getty Images.

1. One in three Americans has less than $5,000 in retirement savings

A Northwestern Mutual study found that one in three Americans has less than $5,000 saved up for retirement, and 21% of Americans have no retirement savings at all. Whatever the reason behind their lack of savings, the result is the same. When they do begin saving, these individuals will have to set aside larger portions of their income each month to have enough for retirement because their savings will have less time to compound before they need to begin drawing upon them. Alternatively, these workers may need to stay in the workforce a little longer than they planned.
2. The median household retirement savings is $50,000

The latest Transamerica retirement survey says the median retirement savings for all households in the U.S. is $50,000. This number is higher for older generations, with baby boomers having a median of $152,000 in retirement savings and Gen Xers having a median of $66,000. Millennials currently have the lowest median retirement savings at $23,000, but they also have the most time left to save before retirement.
3. Americans are leaving $24 billion in unclaimed 401(k) matches on the table

An employer 401(k) match is free money you can put toward your retirement so you don't have to spend your own hard-earned cash on it. But many Americans choose not to take advantage of this, resulting in $24 billion in 401(k) matches going unclaimed every year, according to Financial Engines. The survey says that the typical employee misses out on $1,336 of free cash each year, which could amount to nearly $43,000 with compounding over 20 years.
4. 29% of Americans have taken early withdrawals from their retirement accounts

When times get tough, nearly 3 in 10 Americans dip into their retirement savings, according to Transamerica. Common reasons for taking 401(k) loans or hardship withdrawals include paying down debt, unplanned medical expenses, and paying for higher education. These withdrawals may get you through a tough time, but they also hamper the growth of your retirement savings, and you could pay penalties on these distributions if they're not for a qualified reason. You're better off setting aside money for emergencies in a separate emergency fund. Aim to have three to six months' worth of living expenses.
5. 46% of Americans are just guessing at how much money they need for retirement

Nearly half of all workers surveyed in Transamerica's latest retirement study acknowledged that they were guessing at how much they needed to save for retirement. Only 12% had used a retirement calculator or a worksheet to help them get an accurate estimate. Gen Xers and baby boomers estimated they would need about $500,000 for retirement, while millennials estimated they would need only $400,000. But both estimates are likely to be too low. A MetLife study put the average cost of retirement at $738,400, and it's not unreasonable to think you'll need $1 million or more if you reside somewhere with a high cost of living.
How to shore up your retirement savings

If you're one of the 46% guessing at how much you need for retirement savings, now's the time to make a real plan. Start by estimating how long you expect to live, and figure high. One in 4 65-year-olds today will live past 90, according to the Social Security Administration, and 1 in 10 will live past 95. Subtract the age at which you plan to retire to get the estimated length of your retirement.

Next, estimate your annual living expenses in retirement and multiply this by the number of years of your retirement, adding 3% annually for inflation. A retirement calculator will do this math for you. Once you have your total estimated retirement cost, subtract from this any money you expect to receive from pensions, Social Security, or employer 401(k) matches. You can estimate your Social Security benefit by creating a My Social Security account. The amount that's left over is how much you need to save on your own. Your calculator should also give you an estimate of how much you need to save per month to reach your goal.

The next step is to open retirement accounts if you don't already have them. Your employer may offer a 401(k). Start here, especially if your company matches part of your contributions. If your company doesn't offer a 401(k), open an IRA instead. Traditional IRAs are tax-deferred, so they reduce your taxable income this year, but you pay taxes on your retirement distributions. Roth IRAs work the opposite way. You pay taxes on your initial contributions, but no taxes on distributions in retirement. Traditional IRAs make more sense if you believe you're in a higher tax bracket today than you will be in retirement, while Roth IRAs make more sense if you believe you're in the same or a lower tax bracket today than you will be in retirement.

Aim to contribute as much as your retirement calculator says you should each month, or more if you want an extra cushion. If you can't save that much now, save as much as you can and try to increase your contributions by 1% of your salary each year. Avoid taking early withdrawals, even if you have a qualified reason, like a first-home purchase. Save for these and emergency expenses in a savings account instead.

The above statistics about Americans' retirement savings are dire, but you can beat the odds by creating a solid retirement plan, diligently saving, and taking advantage of any employer 401(k) match that's available.

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Title: Re: 💰 5 Jaw-Dropping Stats About Americans' Retirement Savings
Post by: Eddie on April 15, 2019, 03:37:04 PM
No surprise here.  My Jaw didn't Drop.

RE

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2019/04/14/5-jaw-dropping-stats-about-americans-retirement-sa.aspx (https://www.fool.com/retirement/2019/04/14/5-jaw-dropping-stats-about-americans-retirement-sa.aspx)

5 Jaw-Dropping Stats About Americans' Retirement Savings
No. 3: Americans are leaving $24 billion in unclaimed 401(k) matches on the table.
Kailey Fralick
(TMFKailey)
Apr 14, 2019 at 12:43PM

We think of retirement as a relaxing, carefree time in our lives when we can do whatever we please, but for many working Americans today, retirement will be more of a nightmare than a dream. Study after study has shown that many Americans are well behind where they should be in terms of retirement savings, and if they don't take steps today to fix this, they could end up running out of money or working far longer than they planned.

Here are some of the most shocking statistics about Americans' retirement savings and some advice on how you can get yours back on track.
(https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2Feditorial%2Fimages%2F518333%2Fsurprised-man-with-mouth-hanging-open-jaw-drop-shocked-disbelief.jpg&w=700&op=resize)
Image source: Getty Images.

1. One in three Americans has less than $5,000 in retirement savings

A Northwestern Mutual study found that one in three Americans has less than $5,000 saved up for retirement, and 21% of Americans have no retirement savings at all. Whatever the reason behind their lack of savings, the result is the same. When they do begin saving, these individuals will have to set aside larger portions of their income each month to have enough for retirement because their savings will have less time to compound before they need to begin drawing upon them. Alternatively, these workers may need to stay in the workforce a little longer than they planned.
2. The median household retirement savings is $50,000

The latest Transamerica retirement survey says the median retirement savings for all households in the U.S. is $50,000. This number is higher for older generations, with baby boomers having a median of $152,000 in retirement savings and Gen Xers having a median of $66,000. Millennials currently have the lowest median retirement savings at $23,000, but they also have the most time left to save before retirement.
3. Americans are leaving $24 billion in unclaimed 401(k) matches on the table

An employer 401(k) match is free money you can put toward your retirement so you don't have to spend your own hard-earned cash on it. But many Americans choose not to take advantage of this, resulting in $24 billion in 401(k) matches going unclaimed every year, according to Financial Engines. The survey says that the typical employee misses out on $1,336 of free cash each year, which could amount to nearly $43,000 with compounding over 20 years.
4. 29% of Americans have taken early withdrawals from their retirement accounts

When times get tough, nearly 3 in 10 Americans dip into their retirement savings, according to Transamerica. Common reasons for taking 401(k) loans or hardship withdrawals include paying down debt, unplanned medical expenses, and paying for higher education. These withdrawals may get you through a tough time, but they also hamper the growth of your retirement savings, and you could pay penalties on these distributions if they're not for a qualified reason. You're better off setting aside money for emergencies in a separate emergency fund. Aim to have three to six months' worth of living expenses.
5. 46% of Americans are just guessing at how much money they need for retirement

Nearly half of all workers surveyed in Transamerica's latest retirement study acknowledged that they were guessing at how much they needed to save for retirement. Only 12% had used a retirement calculator or a worksheet to help them get an accurate estimate. Gen Xers and baby boomers estimated they would need about $500,000 for retirement, while millennials estimated they would need only $400,000. But both estimates are likely to be too low. A MetLife study put the average cost of retirement at $738,400, and it's not unreasonable to think you'll need $1 million or more if you reside somewhere with a high cost of living.
How to shore up your retirement savings

If you're one of the 46% guessing at how much you need for retirement savings, now's the time to make a real plan. Start by estimating how long you expect to live, and figure high. One in 4 65-year-olds today will live past 90, according to the Social Security Administration, and 1 in 10 will live past 95. Subtract the age at which you plan to retire to get the estimated length of your retirement.

Next, estimate your annual living expenses in retirement and multiply this by the number of years of your retirement, adding 3% annually for inflation. A retirement calculator will do this math for you. Once you have your total estimated retirement cost, subtract from this any money you expect to receive from pensions, Social Security, or employer 401(k) matches. You can estimate your Social Security benefit by creating a My Social Security account. The amount that's left over is how much you need to save on your own. Your calculator should also give you an estimate of how much you need to save per month to reach your goal.

The next step is to open retirement accounts if you don't already have them. Your employer may offer a 401(k). Start here, especially if your company matches part of your contributions. If your company doesn't offer a 401(k), open an IRA instead. Traditional IRAs are tax-deferred, so they reduce your taxable income this year, but you pay taxes on your retirement distributions. Roth IRAs work the opposite way. You pay taxes on your initial contributions, but no taxes on distributions in retirement. Traditional IRAs make more sense if you believe you're in a higher tax bracket today than you will be in retirement, while Roth IRAs make more sense if you believe you're in the same or a lower tax bracket today than you will be in retirement.

Aim to contribute as much as your retirement calculator says you should each month, or more if you want an extra cushion. If you can't save that much now, save as much as you can and try to increase your contributions by 1% of your salary each year. Avoid taking early withdrawals, even if you have a qualified reason, like a first-home purchase. Save for these and emergency expenses in a savings account instead.

The above statistics about Americans' retirement savings are dire, but you can beat the odds by creating a solid retirement plan, diligently saving, and taking advantage of any employer 401(k) match that's available.

5 Stocks for Building Wealth After 50

I just read that Warren Buffett, the world’s best investor, made over 99% of his massive fortune after his 50th birthday!

It just goes to show you…it’s never too late to start securing your financial future.

And The Motley Fool just released a new report that reveals five of our favorite stocks for building wealth after 50.

And get this, we’re sending a FREE copy of this report Fool.com readers today.

Simply click here to find out how you can claim your free copy of “5 Stocks for Building Wealth After 50”

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