Doomstead Diner Menu => The Kitchen Sink => Topic started by: Cam on February 06, 2020, 12:21:53 PM

Title: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Cam on February 06, 2020, 12:21:53 PM
This is pulled out of an entry I made in my notebook today.

I now see two possible scenarios in my mind. Number one is that we will end up going extinct as a species. We are continually tearing at the fabric of life, and thus undermining our own existence. The other scenario is that we go through a huge population crash (which is now inevitable) but there are small pockets of survivors spread throughout the world. I actually think this is quite likely. However the big 'if' is whether or not we have pushed the Earth's climate so far that it will actually make the planet unihabitable for complex life.

Those who say that human extinction is inevitable would say I'm full of what is called 'hopium'. They are certain that we have pushed things too far, that we are all screwed, and that anyone who says otherwise is delusional or full of hopium.

What I think I am doing is acknowledging the uncertainty of our collective future.  I think the ultra-doomers (the 'we're all dead crowd') are trying to grasp onto something solid, something that they can be certain of in this very messy world. Because if we are all going to die and there is nothing you can do about it, why even try to change things? Why fight to build a new world that will never exist? The certainty that we are all screwed is a sad certainty, but it does free one from the responsibility to fight and work to change things.

Acknowledging the uncertainty is scary as you need to do your best to build a new world that will be there post-collapse, while also understanding that there very well may not be a world with humanity included. In short, we're all screwed, or maybe we aren't. You have to carry both of these possibilities in your mind simultaneously.

I just laughed at those last two sentences. Here I am in a coffee shop, sipping my peach tea, writing about whether or not humanity as a whole is going to go extinct or not.

All I know for certain is that I'm going to do my darndest to plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize. Time to read more of Joanna Macy's work.



I hope you guys find this interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts. I feel as though I'm in a new place when it comes to thinking about collapse.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Eddie on February 06, 2020, 01:29:02 PM
The evidence I see...and I've been spending a lot of time looking at climate models and observed data....tells me that if we have a mass die-off it will be more likely to happen when you're my age, than anytime soon.

But we need to see CO2 dropping to know we changed the long term outlook. and that isn't happening either. It's still goin up.

Short version...the climate models are flawed and the worst case scenario is not playing out....at least yet. But climate remains an existential threat. Some of us used to think that climate change would be self-limiting because the cheap oil would play out soon and Happy Motoring would just go away. Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

It's possible that could still be what "fixes" climate change. It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium.

Palloy might have committed suicide...he hinted that he was going to....he came here hoping to get us all on the dark web where we could foment a revolution. He got very frustrated when I refused to take the bait....I'm guessing he just moved on....there is a chance he was an agent provocateur...but I really don't think so. Just another old commie. Interesting guy. I liked him but he hated me before we were done.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: AJ on February 06, 2020, 03:04:57 PM
Cam,
I couldn't agree with you more. I sometimes feel caught between feelings of absolute hopelessness and some small hope for a post-industrial survival of humanity or at least the Eco-sphere.
I disagree with Eddie in that I think the climate models are wrong and are underestimating the time we have until tipping points push us over into hothouse earth scenarios. At the same time I hope they are wrong and that they are seriously missing some negative feedback loops. Time will tell but I think time is very short.
At the same time I try to educate family and friends about resilience and sustainability of life on a much lower level of resource/energy use. Such education seems wasted.
And to top it off almost everyone I meet is unaware and into BAU with complete denial of our situation.
The irony to me is to be aware of our place on the top of technological civilization before our potential extinction, and the extinction of perhaps the only sentient (if you can call us that) life in the universe.
It's supremely hard to not be depressed. Do your best to enjoy the moment.
AJ
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 06, 2020, 04:04:14 PM
My own take is more akin to AJ's. We can poke and prod and look down our nose at climate models' inaccuracies. And we can thumb our collective noses at the Guy McPherson hospice crowd as unnecessarily catastrophist.

I applaud your desire to "plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize." That's why people plant trees: an expression of optimism for the future. And that's why RE started the Doomstead Diner, if I have him correct. His motto for the Diner is, after all, "Save as Many as You Can."

We do that here every day by sharing information and considering alternatives, while closely observing spin-downs in the economic, energy, environmental and political realms.

Anyone who wants to tell you what the world will look like ten years out is either insane or trying to sell you something. Every year gets hotter, with more CO2 in the atmosphere. The Florida winters of my childhood are noe Virginia's. The North Carolina winters of 1965 are now Pittsburgh's. Pingos explode in the permafrost, ice floes melt in Greenland and the Antarctic, and the much-ballyhooed "methane gun" looks cocked and loaded. Uncontrollable wildfires rage in both hemispheres. the best we can say is that as we head into the Anthropocene, we've not seen anything like this before. And "past performance is no guarantee of future results." Nothing in our lifetimes will prepare us for what is to come.

I also agree with AJ that most people don't want to hear about resource limits and doing more with less. Jimmy Carter tried to tell the truth about America's energy future, but St. Reagan declared "Morning in America," and the White House solar panels went into the dumpster in 1981. And with them our consideration of a future weaned away from fossil fuels. Complete denial is the order of the day for most people. A loud and vocal minority in this country insist Fat Orange did nothing wrong, and that Mitt Romney should be crucified on Capitol Hill for voting his conscience. Reason doesn't reach these people. these are the, "Team America: Fuck Yeah!" crowd. They have weapons, and they vote, and they are itching for the opportunity its to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants."

I also agree with Eddie that "It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium." We've clearly established that not only are use incapable of making better decision s, we have no interest in them. That's just reality.

Yet for all of this we mustn't lose hope. If we, the better- (I won't say "well-") informed lose faith in tomorrow arriving for the next generation, we will have failed in our responsibilities.

At the end of Cormac McCarthy's The Road, one of the great apocalyptic novels (read it if you haven't yet; there is also a film starring Viggo Mortensen of Aragorn fame), there is a scene of hope. Up through that time, the story depicts a father and his son walk alone through a post-apocalypse, burned America. The story begins with a father and son going through an immense struggle to survive in a world that is on the brink of extinction. Survivors scavenge for any food supplies they can find, and some resort to cannibalism. The father and son are faced with the arduous and unenviable task of hunting for supplies and warding off anyone who tries to loot or even eat them. The father is armed with a gun. The problem is that the gun only has two bullets left.

Nothing moves in a ravaged landscape save the ash on the wind. They scavenge rotten apples on the ground and are grateful. It is cold enough to crack stones, and when the snow falls it is gray. Their destination is the coast, for some reason that is unclear-- it may be that they don’t know what, if anything, awaits them there. They have nothing except the clothes on their backs, a cart of scavenged food—and one another.

From there, it gets worse. I'll not be doing spoilers aside from the ending.

When they reach the coast, eventually they are looted of all of their supplies, including food. The situation turns again from hope to utter bleakness. the hopelessness takes its toll as the boy gets upset after they are robbed. The father tries to console him. Even after receiving a mortal wound from an arrow, he tries to convey to his son the importance of taking care of yourself but also remaining human. This is the essential takeaway of this work placed in utter hopelessness: the importance of remaining human, and to do it while retaining compassion, empathy, and yeah, humanity.

Let me not spell out the ending.

In the book, McCarthy obliges us to imagine in a world where basic human decency is abandoned in the quest for survival. Survival equating life in a world where our fellow humans hunt each other down in the hope of eating their next meal.

It also reminds us that human beings in stressful, dangerous situations always find ways to carry on, and that it is not necessary to sacrifice our essential humanity to dos so. But it will likely be necessary to keep our eyes wide open, and to be prepared to be far more ruthless than we are at present. the best thing that any younger person can do (and I'm thinking C5 here) is to get a piece of ground, become resilient, reduce their energy dependence, and develop community.

I sincerely hope to not live to see these days.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: knarf on February 06, 2020, 04:58:25 PM
My own take is more akin to AJ's. We can poke and prod and look down our nose at climate models' inaccuracies. And we can thumb our collective noses at the Guy McPherson hospice crowd as unnecessarily catastrophist.

I applaud your desire to "plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize." That's why people plant trees: an expression of optimism for the future. And that's why RE started the Doomstead Diner, if I have him correct. His motto for the Diner is, after all, "Save as Many as You Can."

We do that here every day by sharing information and considering alternatives, while closely observing spin-downs in the economic, energy, environmental and political realms.

Anyone who wants to tell you what the world will look like ten years out is either insane or trying to sell you something. Every year gets hotter, with more CO2 in the atmosphere. The Florida winters of my childhood are noe Virginia's. The North Carolina winters of 1965 are now Pittsburgh's. Pingos explode in the permafrost, ice floes melt in Greenland and the Antarctic, and the much-ballyhooed "methane gun" looks cocked and loaded. Uncontrollable wildfires rage in both hemispheres. the best we can say is that as we head into the Anthropocene, we've not seen anything like this before. And "past performance is no guarantee of future results." Nothing in our lifetimes will prepare us for what is to come.

I also agree with AJ that most people don't want to hear about resource limits and doing more with less. Jimmy Carter tried to tell the truth about America's energy future, but St. Reagan declared "Morning in America," and the White House solar panels went into the dumpster in 1981. And with them our consideration of a future weaned away from fossil fuels. Complete denial is the order of the day for most people. A loud and vocal minority in this country insist Fat Orange did nothing wrong, and that Mitt Romney should be crucified on Capitol Hill for voting his conscience. Reason doesn't reach these people. these are the, "Team America: Fuck Yeah!" crowd. They have weapons, and they vote, and they are itching for the opportunity its to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants."

I also agree with Eddie that "It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium." We've clearly established that not only are use incapable of making better decision s, we have no interest in them. That's just reality.

Yet for all of this we mustn't lose hope. If we, the better- (I won't say "well-") informed lose faith in tomorrow arriving for the next generation, we will have failed in our responsibilities.

At the end of Cormac McCarthy's The Road, one of the great apocalyptic novels (read it if you haven't yet; there is also a film starring Viggo Mortensen of Aragorn fame), there is a scene of hope. Up through that time, the story depicts a father and his son walk alone through a post-apocalypse, burned America. The story begins with a father and son going through an immense struggle to survive in a world that is on the brink of extinction. Survivors scavenge for any food supplies they can find, and some resort to cannibalism. The father and son are faced with the arduous and unenviable task of hunting for supplies and warding off anyone who tries to loot or even eat them. The father is armed with a gun. The problem is that the gun only has two bullets left.

Nothing moves in a ravaged landscape save the ash on the wind. They scavenge rotten apples on the ground and are grateful. It is cold enough to crack stones, and when the snow falls it is gray. Their destination is the coast, for some reason that is unclear-- it may be that they don’t know what, if anything, awaits them there. They have nothing except the clothes on their backs, a cart of scavenged food—and one another.

From there, it gets worse. I'll not be doing spoilers aside from the ending.

When they reach the coast, eventually they are looted of all of their supplies, including food. The situation turns again from hope to utter bleakness. the hopelessness takes its toll as the boy gets upset after they are robbed. The father tries to console him. Even after receiving a mortal wound from an arrow, he tries to convey to his son the importance of taking care of yourself but also remaining human. This is the essential takeaway of this work placed in utter hopelessness: the importance of remaining human, and to do it while retaining compassion, empathy, and yeah, humanity.

Let me not spell out the ending.

In the book, McCarthy obliges us to imagine in a world where basic human decency is abandoned in the quest for survival. Survival equating life in a world where our fellow humans hunt each other down in the hope of eating their next meal.

It also reminds us that human beings in stressful, dangerous situations always find ways to carry on, and that it is not necessary to sacrifice our essential humanity to dos so. But it will likely be necessary to keep our eyes wide open, and to be prepared to be far more ruthless than we are at present. the best thing that any younger person can do (and I'm thinking C5 here) is to get a piece of ground, become resilient, reduce their energy dependence, and develop community.

I sincerely hope to not live to see these days.

 :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 06, 2020, 05:33:42 PM
My own take is more akin to AJ's. We can poke and prod and look down our nose at climate models' inaccuracies. And we can thumb our collective noses at the Guy McPherson hospice crowd as unnecessarily catastrophist.

I applaud your desire to "plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize." That's why people plant trees: an expression of optimism for the future. And that's why RE started the Doomstead Diner, if I have him correct. His motto for the Diner is, after all, "Save as Many as You Can."

We do that here every day by sharing information and considering alternatives, while closely observing spin-downs in the economic, energy, environmental and political realms.

Anyone who wants to tell you what the world will look like ten years out is either insane or trying to sell you something. Every year gets hotter, with more CO2 in the atmosphere. The Florida winters of my childhood are noe Virginia's. The North Carolina winters of 1965 are now Pittsburgh's. Pingos explode in the permafrost, ice floes melt in Greenland and the Antarctic, and the much-ballyhooed "methane gun" looks cocked and loaded. Uncontrollable wildfires rage in both hemispheres. the best we can say is that as we head into the Anthropocene, we've not seen anything like this before. And "past performance is no guarantee of future results." Nothing in our lifetimes will prepare us for what is to come.

I also agree with AJ that most people don't want to hear about resource limits and doing more with less. Jimmy Carter tried to tell the truth about America's energy future, but St. Reagan declared "Morning in America," and the White House solar panels went into the dumpster in 1981. And with them our consideration of a future weaned away from fossil fuels. Complete denial is the order of the day for most people. A loud and vocal minority in this country insist Fat Orange did nothing wrong, and that Mitt Romney should be crucified on Capitol Hill for voting his conscience. Reason doesn't reach these people. these are the, "Team America: Fuck Yeah!" crowd. They have weapons, and they vote, and they are itching for the opportunity its to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants."

I also agree with Eddie that "It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium." We've clearly established that not only are use incapable of making better decision s, we have no interest in them. That's just reality.

Yet for all of this we mustn't lose hope. If we, the better- (I won't say "well-") informed lose faith in tomorrow arriving for the next generation, we will have failed in our responsibilities.

At the end of Cormac McCarthy's The Road, one of the great apocalyptic novels (read it if you haven't yet; there is also a film starring Viggo Mortensen of Aragorn fame), there is a scene of hope. Up through that time, the story depicts a father and his son walk alone through a post-apocalypse, burned America. The story begins with a father and son going through an immense struggle to survive in a world that is on the brink of extinction. Survivors scavenge for any food supplies they can find, and some resort to cannibalism. The father and son are faced with the arduous and unenviable task of hunting for supplies and warding off anyone who tries to loot or even eat them. The father is armed with a gun. The problem is that the gun only has two bullets left.

Nothing moves in a ravaged landscape save the ash on the wind. They scavenge rotten apples on the ground and are grateful. It is cold enough to crack stones, and when the snow falls it is gray. Their destination is the coast, for some reason that is unclear-- it may be that they don’t know what, if anything, awaits them there. They have nothing except the clothes on their backs, a cart of scavenged food—and one another.

From there, it gets worse. I'll not be doing spoilers aside from the ending.

When they reach the coast, eventually they are looted of all of their supplies, including food. The situation turns again from hope to utter bleakness. the hopelessness takes its toll as the boy gets upset after they are robbed. The father tries to console him. Even after receiving a mortal wound from an arrow, he tries to convey to his son the importance of taking care of yourself but also remaining human. This is the essential takeaway of this work placed in utter hopelessness: the importance of remaining human, and to do it while retaining compassion, empathy, and yeah, humanity.

Let me not spell out the ending.

In the book, McCarthy obliges us to imagine in a world where basic human decency is abandoned in the quest for survival. Survival equating life in a world where our fellow humans hunt each other down in the hope of eating their next meal.

It also reminds us that human beings in stressful, dangerous situations always find ways to carry on, and that it is not necessary to sacrifice our essential humanity to dos so. But it will likely be necessary to keep our eyes wide open, and to be prepared to be far more ruthless than we are at present. the best thing that any younger person can do (and I'm thinking C5 here) is to get a piece of ground, become resilient, reduce their energy dependence, and develop community.

I sincerely hope to not live to see these days.

DING DING DING!

BLOG ARTICLE!

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 07, 2020, 05:55:48 AM
This is pulled out of an entry I made in my notebook today.

I now see two possible scenarios in my mind. Number one is that we will end up going extinct as a species. We are continually tearing at the fabric of life, and thus undermining our own existence. The other scenario is that we go through a huge population crash (which is now inevitable) but there are small pockets of survivors spread throughout the world. I actually think this is quite likely. However the big 'if' is whether or not we have pushed the Earth's climate so far that it will actually make the planet unihabitable for complex life.

Those who say that human extinction is inevitable would say I'm full of what is called 'hopium'. They are certain that we have pushed things too far, that we are all screwed, and that anyone who says otherwise is delusional or full of hopium.

What I think I am doing is acknowledging the uncertainty of our collective future.  I think the ultra-doomers (the 'we're all dead crowd') are trying to grasp onto something solid, something that they can be certain of in this very messy world. Because if we are all going to die and there is nothing you can do about it, why even try to change things? Why fight to build a new world that will never exist? The certainty that we are all screwed is a sad certainty, but it does free one from the responsibility to fight and work to change things.

Acknowledging the uncertainty is scary as you need to do your best to build a new world that will be there post-collapse, while also understanding that there very well may not be a world with humanity included. In short, we're all screwed, or maybe we aren't. You have to carry both of these possibilities in your mind simultaneously.

I just laughed at those last two sentences. Here I am in a coffee shop, sipping my peach tea, writing about whether or not humanity as a whole is going to go extinct or not.

All I know for certain is that I'm going to do my darndest to plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize. Time to read more of Joanna Macy's work.



I hope you guys find this interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts. I feel as though I'm in a new place when it comes to thinking about collapse.
First off, you are in a safe space for talking extinction. The world at large usually associates it with depression at least in my own circle. Prepping and resilience usually gets a nervous laugh and a pass.
Next I would say you need to start devoting equal amounts of time to researching and taking physical steps towards the world you want to create not dwelling on weather or not this version of society survives; in the long run it does not, timeframe unknown, who cares. I do care but long ago a friend introduced me to the idea of spheres of control influence and concern so I'm attaching a picture. Its been coopted by the corporate crowd and the feel good navel gazers but it is still relevant: What you control matters most, what you can influence matters as well but the strength to influence flows from what you control. What concerns you matters but the more you dwell on what concerns you instead of what you control or could influence the smaller those two important circles become. I would say our connected society spends far too much time in the concerned circle and ends up with very little control of their immediate day to day existence. The buddhist equivalent as this backwoods carpenter understands it would be: if you seek enlightenment chop wood and haul water, once you have achieved enlightenment chop wood and haul water...
Ever worked in a food bank? served a meal on a shelter line? seen food grown on an organic farm? done a work stay? Seen an intentional community? Hiked alone for a week?  Get out there get your hands dirty to balance things out, gain confidence in your own strengths, and just figure out what works for you.
For what its worth I read the Road and intensely disliked it. It was worth reading but I found it fetishized tragedy and doom. I don't care if humanity remains true to its higher self if the species goes extinct. I am not full of hopium but humanity has survived bottle necks before that reduced us to a few thousand breading pairs... we can do it again and we are much more adept then we used to be.
Cheers...  NF
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Cam on February 07, 2020, 08:09:01 AM
The evidence I see...and I've been spending a lot of time looking at climate models and observed data....tells me that if we have a mass die-off it will be more likely to happen when you're my age, than anytime soon.

But we need to see CO2 dropping to know we changed the long term outlook. and that isn't happening either. It's still goin up.

Short version...the climate models are flawed and the worst case scenario is not playing out....at least yet. But climate remains an existential threat. Some of us used to think that climate change would be self-limiting because the cheap oil would play out soon and Happy Motoring would just go away. Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

It's possible that could still be what "fixes" climate change. It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium.

Palloy might have committed suicide...he hinted that he was going to....he came here hoping to get us all on the dark web where we could foment a revolution. He got very frustrated when I refused to take the bait....I'm guessing he just moved on....there is a chance he was an agent provocateur...but I really don't think so. Just another old commie. Interesting guy. I liked him but he hated me before we were done.


I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Cam,
I couldn't agree with you more. I sometimes feel caught between feelings of absolute hopelessness and some small hope for a post-industrial survival of humanity or at least the Eco-sphere.
I disagree with Eddie in that I think the climate models are wrong and are underestimating the time we have until tipping points push us over into hothouse earth scenarios. At the same time I hope they are wrong and that they are seriously missing some negative feedback loops. Time will tell but I think time is very short.
At the same time I try to educate family and friends about resilience and sustainability of life on a much lower level of resource/energy use. Such education seems wasted.
And to top it off almost everyone I meet is unaware and into BAU with complete denial of our situation.
The irony to me is to be aware of our place on the top of technological civilization before our potential extinction, and the extinction of perhaps the only sentient (if you can call us that) life in the universe.
It's supremely hard to not be depressed. Do your best to enjoy the moment.
AJ


Yeah climate change is definitely the big 'if'. On educating family and friends, I'm still up in the air about that. Part of me wants to tell them to keep out of cities and to not have kids and all the rest, though I know that talking about collapse to people in denial is a recipe for alienation even if it is the right thing to do. I still think I will try with my family though. My parents seem somewhat on board with living a little more off-grid. My dad has known about how wonky the financial system is for a while now so he is 'collapse-aware' in the financial sense.

As for enjoying the moment, I am very careful to take time each day to just enjoy things, whether it be reading or some tea or a walk in the woods.

My own take is more akin to AJ's. We can poke and prod and look down our nose at climate models' inaccuracies. And we can thumb our collective noses at the Guy McPherson hospice crowd as unnecessarily catastrophist.

I applaud your desire to "plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize." That's why people plant trees: an expression of optimism for the future. And that's why RE started the Doomstead Diner, if I have him correct. His motto for the Diner is, after all, "Save as Many as You Can."

We do that here every day by sharing information and considering alternatives, while closely observing spin-downs in the economic, energy, environmental and political realms.

Anyone who wants to tell you what the world will look like ten years out is either insane or trying to sell you something. Every year gets hotter, with more CO2 in the atmosphere. The Florida winters of my childhood are noe Virginia's. The North Carolina winters of 1965 are now Pittsburgh's. Pingos explode in the permafrost, ice floes melt in Greenland and the Antarctic, and the much-ballyhooed "methane gun" looks cocked and loaded. Uncontrollable wildfires rage in both hemispheres. the best we can say is that as we head into the Anthropocene, we've not seen anything like this before. And "past performance is no guarantee of future results." Nothing in our lifetimes will prepare us for what is to come.

I also agree with AJ that most people don't want to hear about resource limits and doing more with less. Jimmy Carter tried to tell the truth about America's energy future, but St. Reagan declared "Morning in America," and the White House solar panels went into the dumpster in 1981. And with them our consideration of a future weaned away from fossil fuels. Complete denial is the order of the day for most people. A loud and vocal minority in this country insist Fat Orange did nothing wrong, and that Mitt Romney should be crucified on Capitol Hill for voting his conscience. Reason doesn't reach these people. these are the, "Team America: Fuck Yeah!" crowd. They have weapons, and they vote, and they are itching for the opportunity its to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants."

I also agree with Eddie that "It won't be modern mankind suddenly making better decisions. That's hopium." We've clearly established that not only are use incapable of making better decision s, we have no interest in them. That's just reality.

Yet for all of this we mustn't lose hope. If we, the better- (I won't say "well-") informed lose faith in tomorrow arriving for the next generation, we will have failed in our responsibilities.

At the end of Cormac McCarthy's The Road, one of the great apocalyptic novels (read it if you haven't yet; there is also a film starring Viggo Mortensen of Aragorn fame), there is a scene of hope. Up through that time, the story depicts a father and his son walk alone through a post-apocalypse, burned America. The story begins with a father and son going through an immense struggle to survive in a world that is on the brink of extinction. Survivors scavenge for any food supplies they can find, and some resort to cannibalism. The father and son are faced with the arduous and unenviable task of hunting for supplies and warding off anyone who tries to loot or even eat them. The father is armed with a gun. The problem is that the gun only has two bullets left.

Nothing moves in a ravaged landscape save the ash on the wind. They scavenge rotten apples on the ground and are grateful. It is cold enough to crack stones, and when the snow falls it is gray. Their destination is the coast, for some reason that is unclear-- it may be that they don’t know what, if anything, awaits them there. They have nothing except the clothes on their backs, a cart of scavenged food—and one another.

From there, it gets worse. I'll not be doing spoilers aside from the ending.

When they reach the coast, eventually they are looted of all of their supplies, including food. The situation turns again from hope to utter bleakness. the hopelessness takes its toll as the boy gets upset after they are robbed. The father tries to console him. Even after receiving a mortal wound from an arrow, he tries to convey to his son the importance of taking care of yourself but also remaining human. This is the essential takeaway of this work placed in utter hopelessness: the importance of remaining human, and to do it while retaining compassion, empathy, and yeah, humanity.

Let me not spell out the ending.

In the book, McCarthy obliges us to imagine in a world where basic human decency is abandoned in the quest for survival. Survival equating life in a world where our fellow humans hunt each other down in the hope of eating their next meal.

It also reminds us that human beings in stressful, dangerous situations always find ways to carry on, and that it is not necessary to sacrifice our essential humanity to dos so. But it will likely be necessary to keep our eyes wide open, and to be prepared to be far more ruthless than we are at present. the best thing that any younger person can do (and I'm thinking C5 here) is to get a piece of ground, become resilient, reduce their energy dependence, and develop community.

I sincerely hope to not live to see these days.

I have never heard of The Road, though I will check it out. And thank you for highlighting the importance for keeping hope alive as a member of the 'better informed'. Seeing this as something much bigger than myself really helps me to keep on trucking. I think my most important objective after university is to start doing all this stuff I've been learning about like organic farming, permaculture and other necessary skills. This is gonna be a wild adventure.

Quote
DING DING DING!

BLOG ARTICLE!

RE

I petition that I be called the Midwife of Blog Articles. I've helped bring two into the world now.

Quote
First off, you are in a safe space for talking extinction. The world at large usually associates it with depression at least in my own circle. Prepping and resilience usually gets a nervous laugh and a pass.
Next I would say you need to start devoting equal amounts of time to researching and taking physical steps towards the world you want to create not dwelling on weather or not this version of society survives; in the long run it does not, timeframe unknown, who cares. I do care but long ago a friend introduced me to the idea of spheres of control influence and concern so I'm attaching a picture. Its been coopted by the corporate crowd and the feel good navel gazers but it is still relevant: What you control matters most, what you can influence matters as well but the strength to influence flows from what you control. What concerns you matters but the more you dwell on what concerns you instead of what you control or could influence the smaller those two important circles become. I would say our connected society spends far too much time in the concerned circle and ends up with very little control of their immediate day to day existence. The buddhist equivalent as this backwoods carpenter understands it would be: if you seek enlightenment chop wood and haul water, once you have achieved enlightenment chop wood and haul water...
Ever worked in a food bank? served a meal on a shelter line? seen food grown on an organic farm? done a work stay? Seen an intentional community? Hiked alone for a week?  Get out there get your hands dirty to balance things out, gain confidence in your own strengths, and just figure out what works for you.
For what its worth I read the Road and intensely disliked it. It was worth reading but I found it fetishized tragedy and doom. I don't care if humanity remains true to its higher self if the species goes extinct. I am not full of hopium but humanity has survived bottle necks before that reduced us to a few thousand breading pairs... we can do it again and we are much more adept then we used to be.
Cheers...  NF

Thank you thank you thank you for bringing up the spheres of influence. This is something I (sorta, not the exact same thing) learned about this past summer when I really got into Stoicism as a philosphy for life. Frankly, in learning about collapse I have completely forgotten the cardinal rule that says only worry about what you can control. It has been taking a toll on me, both emotionally and physically. I feel as if I am much older than my age. So thank you again for the introduction to this, as I know it will help return me to my less tight, more cheery self. 

As for the actual skills part, I have lived a very sheltered existence thus far. However I see this as an opportunity to really get my hands dirty and learn a whole lot about the world while also working to build something new for after this civilization is gone. Once I am done university (just a couple months now!) I think I may try a work stay on a farm here in Ontario or over in Quebec. I have also been preparing myself for an electrical apprenticeship, because as you guys reminded me last year, I need to live in this current world even if I know it is on the way out.

Thank you everyone for the input  8)
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: cernunnos5 on February 07, 2020, 10:26:17 AM
This is pulled out of an entry I made in my notebook today.

I now see two possible scenarios in my mind. Number one is that we will end up going extinct as a species. We are continually tearing at the fabric of life, and thus undermining our own existence. The other scenario is that we go through a huge population crash (which is now inevitable) but there are small pockets of survivors spread throughout the world. I actually think this is quite likely. However the big 'if' is whether or not we have pushed the Earth's climate so far that it will actually make the planet unihabitable for complex life.

Those who say that human extinction is inevitable would say I'm full of what is called 'hopium'. They are certain that we have pushed things too far, that we are all screwed, and that anyone who says otherwise is delusional or full of hopium.

What I think I am doing is acknowledging the uncertainty of our collective future.  I think the ultra-doomers (the 'we're all dead crowd') are trying to grasp onto something solid, something that they can be certain of in this very messy world. Because if we are all going to die and there is nothing you can do about it, why even try to change things? Why fight to build a new world that will never exist? The certainty that we are all screwed is a sad certainty, but it does free one from the responsibility to fight and work to change things.

Acknowledging the uncertainty is scary as you need to do your best to build a new world that will be there post-collapse, while also understanding that there very well may not be a world with humanity included. In short, we're all screwed, or maybe we aren't. You have to carry both of these possibilities in your mind simultaneously.

I just laughed at those last two sentences. Here I am in a coffee shop, sipping my peach tea, writing about whether or not humanity as a whole is going to go extinct or not.

All I know for certain is that I'm going to do my darndest to plant the seeds of a new world, even though a) I may never see it and b) we may all be dead quite soon and that new world may never materialize. Time to read more of Joanna Macy's work.



I hope you guys find this interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts. I feel as though I'm in a new place when it comes to thinking about collapse.
First off, you are in a safe space for talking extinction. The world at large usually associates it with depression at least in my own circle. Prepping and resilience usually gets a nervous laugh and a pass.
Next I would say you need to start devoting equal amounts of time to researching and taking physical steps towards the world you want to create not dwelling on weather or not this version of society survives; in the long run it does not, timeframe unknown, who cares. I do care but long ago a friend introduced me to the idea of spheres of control influence and concern so I'm attaching a picture. Its been coopted by the corporate crowd and the feel good navel gazers but it is still relevant: What you control matters most, what you can influence matters as well but the strength to influence flows from what you control. What concerns you matters but the more you dwell on what concerns you instead of what you control or could influence the smaller those two important circles become. I would say our connected society spends far too much time in the concerned circle and ends up with very little control of their immediate day to day existence. The buddhist equivalent as this backwoods carpenter understands it would be: if you seek enlightenment chop wood and haul water, once you have achieved enlightenment chop wood and haul water...
Ever worked in a food bank? served a meal on a shelter line? seen food grown on an organic farm? done a work stay? Seen an intentional community? Hiked alone for a week?  Get out there get your hands dirty to balance things out, gain confidence in your own strengths, and just figure out what works for you.
For what its worth I read the Road and intensely disliked it. It was worth reading but I found it fetishized tragedy and doom. I don't care if humanity remains true to its higher self if the species goes extinct. I am not full of hopium but humanity has survived bottle necks before that reduced us to a few thousand breading pairs... we can do it again and we are much more adept then we used to be.
Cheers...  NF
I'm Back. I survived... but I will keep this short as I am still resting up befor writing over the winter.
Lets start with what NS just said. Cut wood. Haul water. C5 Survey Says... DITTO.

We all spend too much time researching what is wrong. Its your ACTIONS that will define you. I faced the cold to cut some minor wood today to get my ball rolling again.

Cam. I read the stuff you wrote write from the biggining. I just couldnt reply in any depth because I only had a tablet. Short form. I think you are on the right path. You have already bypassed some of the pit traps "Woke or Red Pilled" Noobs fall into. I'ld Take you on as an apprentice right now. Dont get exited. All I could really teach you is to "Cut wood and haul water".

In stead of responding to all of your questions, I had made the decision I would do a post on my blog called, "answering Cam" or something like that. It will have to wait till after the next rather large article. Part 3 of the C5 Gets Wood series (I know. Theres Already 5)

In the mean time, as that whole virus thing is happening, focus on making sure you have a bunch of food on hand. You can never go wrong with food storage. You are going to eat in anyway. Right? A bit of CASH in small bills is also handy. Buying 20$ of spaghetti never hurt anyone.

On the longer focus, spend half as much time looking up what is wrong and double your time into your ADAPTIONS to those problems.

If you only do One Small Thing a day that gets you closer to your goals, That is a WHOPPING 365 thing you will get done each year that get closer to your goal of how you are going survive all this.

Thats all for now. Im back out there trimming flammible scrub away from the house

 
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 07, 2020, 12:27:22 PM
I'm Back. I survived... but I will keep this short as I am still resting up befor writing over the winter.
Lets start with what NS just said. Cut wood. Haul water. C5 Survey Says... DITTO.

We all spend too much time researching what is wrong. Its your ACTIONS that will define you. I faced the cold to cut some minor wood today to get my ball rolling again.

Cam. I read the stuff you wrote write from the biggining. I just couldnt reply in any depth because I only had a tablet. Short form. I think you are on the right path. You have already bypassed some of the pit traps "Woke or Red Pilled" Noobs fall into. I'ld Take you on as an apprentice right now. Dont get exited. All I could really teach you is to "Cut wood and haul water".

In stead of responding to all of your questions, I had made the decision I would do a post on my blog called, "answering Cam" or something like that. It will have to wait till after the next rather large article. Part 3 of the C5 Gets Wood series (I know. Theres Already 5)

In the mean time, as that whole virus thing is happening, focus on making sure you have a bunch of food on hand. You can never go wrong with food storage. You are going to eat in anyway. Right? A bit of CASH in small bills is also handy. Buying 20$ of spaghetti never hurt anyone.

On the longer focus, spend half as much time looking up what is wrong and double your time into your ADAPTIONS to those problems.

If you only do One Small Thing a day that gets you closer to your goals, That is a WHOPPING 365 thing you will get done each year that get closer to your goal of how you are going survive all this.

Thats all for now. Im back out there trimming flammible scrub away from the house

C5!  BACK from the Banana Republics!  In one piece too! lol.  :icon_sunny:

http://www.youtube.com/v/kVfrIfwXFSQ

How was the Collapse Surfing?  lol.

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 07, 2020, 12:33:28 PM
humanity has survived bottle necks before that reduced us to a few thousand breading pairs... we can do it again and we are much more adept then we used to be.
Cheers...  NF

HEAR HERE!  HEAR HERE!

Done before, it can be done again.   Done before, it can be done again.   Done before, it can be done again.   Done before, it can be done again.  Done before, it can be done again.

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Cam on February 07, 2020, 12:50:19 PM
Quote
I'm Back. I survived... but I will keep this short as I am still resting up befor writing over the winter.
Lets start with what NS just said. Cut wood. Haul water. C5 Survey Says... DITTO.

Looking good in that regard. I can say that I have chopped wood and hauled water at my family's cottage. So I'm not completely useless there.

Quote
We all spend too much time researching what is wrong. Its your ACTIONS that will define you. I faced the cold to cut some minor wood today to get my ball rolling again.

I agree with this as I am just realizing that I am focusing too much on things in my sphere of concern (to quote NF) versus things I have direct control over. That's not to say I've done NOTHING. I've sold my investments I had as I think they can be invested better elsewhere (it was only a few thousand dollars so not a huge deal either way), and I have learned some stuff about living without our civilization's help.  I am excited to be done university though because that opens up all my mental and physical energy to direct wherever the heck I want it to go.

Quote
Cam. I read the stuff you wrote write from the biggining. I just couldnt reply in any depth because I only had a tablet. Short form. I think you are on the right path. You have already bypassed some of the pit traps "Woke or Red Pilled" Noobs fall into. I'ld Take you on as an apprentice right now. Dont get exited. All I could really teach you is to "Cut wood and haul water".

In stead of responding to all of your questions, I had made the decision I would do a post on my blog called, "answering Cam" or something like that. It will have to wait till after the next rather large article. Part 3 of the C5 Gets Wood series (I know. Theres Already 5)

In the mean time, as that whole virus thing is happening, focus on making sure you have a bunch of food on hand. You can never go wrong with food storage. You are going to eat in anyway. Right? A bit of CASH in small bills is also handy. Buying 20$ of spaghetti never hurt anyone.

On the longer focus, spend half as much time looking up what is wrong and double your time into your ADAPTIONS to those problems.

If you only do One Small Thing a day that gets you closer to your goals, That is a WHOPPING 365 thing you will get done each year that get closer to your goal of how you are going survive all this.

Thats all for now. Im back out there trimming flammible scrub away from the house

 

I would be honoured to be your apprentice C5! I know you can teach me a whole lot about actually making it to the other side of all this. The only survival stuff I've read before yours was Les Stroud's books which, while teaching some useful skills, still focus on the 'let's head out in the boonies and see how we do' kind of idea. So I am just about a blank slate.

As for the blog post, that is so cool and I'm excited you're doing it! Thank you  8)

Also hey RE this soon-to-be post is the third one I have helped bring into being. Seriously I am the Midwife of Blog Articles.

I will work on switching my focus on learning how to deal with collapse rather than learning why things are collapsing. I have nowhere near an encyclopedic knowledge of collapse, but I do know that things are going to get worse, and that's honestly all one needs to know to get going on adapting. And the one small per day thing is very helpful too, I just need to actually put it into practice. I need to start responding to all this. 

Finally, do you have an email or some way to contact you? Could you post it or message it to me? Thank you, and I look forward to the post!
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 07, 2020, 01:07:59 PM
Also hey RE this soon-to-be post is the third one I have helped bring into being. Seriously I am the Midwife of Blog Articles.

The Diner needed a Midwife.  We are seriously overloaded with Testosterone here.  And mostly OLD testosterone. lol.    :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Finally, do you have an email or some way to contact you? Could you post it or message it to me? Thank you, and I look forward to the post!

I'll send you an email to your registered email address.  You can also Skype me.  My Skype ID is Gymnopolis.  Send me a contact request and we can chat.

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 07, 2020, 04:19:54 PM
humanity has survived bottle necks before that reduced us to a few thousand breading pairs... we can do it again and we are much more adept then we used to be.
Cheers...  NF

HEAR HERE!  HEAR HERE![/size

RE

Toba was 75,000 years ago. 10,000 breeding pairs left on earth?
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 07, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
Toba was 75,000 years ago. 10,000 breeding pairs left on earth?

No, not quite right.

The estimate from the DNA record shows just 10,000 Human Souls left walking the earth after Toba, with just 1000 Breeding Pairs.  Many of those 10,000 left standing were Children or Old Folks past breeding age.

From The 1000, we bred up to the current population of ~7.6B in just 75,000 years.  Doubtful it will ever get that large again, but 10M-100M is well within reason and sustainable.

REMEMBER THE 1000!

You owe your life to them.  They are your GREATEST Grandparents.  They SURVIVED!  They did not quit, they did not give up.

DONE ONCE, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN!


RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 20, 2020, 09:53:19 PM
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 20, 2020, 10:18:06 PM
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.

Palloy!  You're BACK!  :icon_sunny:

That was one long fucking Walkabout!

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Eddie on February 21, 2020, 10:19:02 AM
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.

Like every communist I ever met, you can only see the world in black-and-white. Your world is a fucking comic book.

To you, I'm the poster boy for a system you've hated for most of your life. In reality, I'm just a guy who grew up in that system, and tried to make the best of it. If I'd grown up under some other system, I'd have no doubt done the same.

Some people live their lives rebelling against something or other........and fighting for the changes they want to see...and on and on...and that's fine...but in my view it doesn't make them superior.....and it damn sure doesn't help them get along in the world...unless they ride the Revolution into power.....then they, without fail, become instantly corrupted......and just like the oligarchs they threw out.

Retirement is a scam and you know it. it's the brass ring for the working stiff, something to keep him getting up and getting to the coffee pot so he can show up for his meaningless job for 40 years.

Do you think Picasso wanted to retire at  65? Or Da Vinci?

How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

Nah, they were too busy causing the only mass-die-offs in modern history to retire. Too busy breaking more eggs to make some more omelets for the Workers.

Look at what they left.

Russia is run by the world's richest thug. His cut...half of everything.

China is run by the politburo using capitalist money to pay the workers their $5 a day. Progress (but lots of pollution).

And you did and still do hate me, or at least what I represent. Actually you always MAKE me into what you WANT to hate. You don't even see the real me. Nor do you wish to. You just need a bad guy in your comic book.

Btw, I did NOT vote for Trump, never supported Trump, and consider him more dangerous than Kim and all the Ayatollahs put together. I voted for Obama the first time....but he disappointed me mightily.....and so I wrote in a throw-away vote for Ron Paul in 2012. Obama won anyway. I voted for Clinton in 2016.....even though I really, really detested her and most of what she stood for.. I seldom am happy about voting. It's an exercise in frustration. There are never any good choices. I vote for the less bad..as best I can tell what that is. Often it's almost a toss-up.

And.....I'm not a Christian...at least not in the conventional sense of the word......although I was brought up in that religion. I'm not a participant in any organized religion, nor am I really a member of any organized political machine. I distrust most groups. I don't like decisions that are made by committee, and  I try to go my own way most of the time.

I vote against the worst idiots I see running for office and generally watch them get elected, like Trump, and Bush before him.

Quote
The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.

All correct in my estimation. If you've been reading me, nothing I've said would contradict any of that.

I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here. Or......have you been lurking the whole time?

I see that rumors of your death must have been greatly exaggerated.   lol..

Good. I'm glad. I admire you personally, in spite of your politics, which annoy me. For most of my life I tried to  ignore politics. But it isn't easy.

I mentioned you because it was always my impression you had a good handle on the IPCC climate models, and understood them way better than anyone here, especially me, since I never paid them the slightest attention. I figured the reality was worse than they were predicting and McPherson was probably more or less right.

And I figured CO2 would keep increasing because BAU would never voluntarily power down....no way, no how.

As it turns out I was wrong about my first assumption....so far the second assumption has held true. I still think most of the powering down will be forced....but it might come (as I remember you suggesting) in time to prevent the very worst of climate change.

Since you haven't been around......I finally decided to study the climate models and look at the data..because the media is nothing but lies....on both sides.

Turns out they weren't too bad, and maybe the mid-range predictions are closer to reality...at least so far. It is very early......I just wanted to know if climate change under the BAU scenarios really was going to lead to near-term extinction...since the XR people are now out there managing to convince the Great Herd of humans that it's about to happen.

My conclusion...the evidence suggests what you just wrote above....if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...probably not my kids lifetimes either.

The XR people aren't well educated on climate. They're just more communists trying to use the "climate issue" to further their rebellion against Global Capitalism....which is the real target.

Do you really think I'm a fan of global capitalism? Think again. I'm just not a joiner of stupid lost causes. Or a willing foolish participant in civil insurrections.

I go my own way. I didn't create global capitalism, and I'm not particularly a willing participant...any more than anyone else who is in any kind of local commerce or local service position. I was born into this time and place and circumstance.

People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.  Unfortunately, I wasn't born stupid, nor am I the typical uneducated schmuck.......typing and cut-and-pasting other peoples ideas on the internet.

Go ahead and try to turn young Cam if you can......you have lots of help here......the Don Quixotes of Doom here are all socialists looking to provide the same outcome for everyone.

Welcome back to the Diner. I'm about done with this forum.  You can have my place at the table.

I've been investigating collapse for about ten years. I have a much different view than when first read about PO in 2010..and started trying to figure out what it all meant. I have a pretty good handle on where we're headed, both short term and longer term....and I'm tired of arguing with fools...... and also very tired of being misrepresented by knaves....you are no fool........but you are a knave.

But...nevertheless.......I'm very glad you're still alive and kicking.

I'd appreciate an update on what you make out of the current real climate literature and the current models...and the way they fit the data so far. And what you think about tipping points...and if we've reached some of them (I think we have on the ice) and how that is likely to play out. My guess......in relatively smaller ways now....but much bigger ways in a couple of hundred years.

You never lied about that stuff, I don't think. I always respected your writing on PO and on climate.




Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 22, 2020, 06:30:43 PM
Quote
Eddie: People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.

Complete bullshit. I argued AGAINST people clashing with police in the streets, where the set pieces always favour the well-armed, well-trained squads.  I argue in favour of using darkness and quietness to go to an obvious government target and fire-bombing it and returning home un-arrested and un-harmed.  Wanting to turn people into cannon fodder is pure evil, and its disgusting that you would ever think of saying that.

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How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

As I have said repeatedly, they have had a very bad press from the CIA and hence historians.  You have spent your whole life hearing the same pack of lies, and you haven't recognised it for the propaganda it was.  You believe it, all of it. 

You think Mao was a Communist, but he never did a thing that communists would want to do, apart from leading a "people's revolution".  What communist society would have ultra low wages ?  What communist society would trade pollution for jobs ?
But China has to remain a communist society in the Capitalist propaganda, because that makes them BAD people and OK to kill.

Stalin started with a broken, bankrupt, starving country and made it into the #2 superpower.  Free health and education, including university level.  He won WW2 (compare the areas of German control taken).  US outrage at his keeping of that territory caused the Cold War, while the US kept all it took and called it NATO, and STILL DOES.  The only thing he didn't do was make trendy new trash, which the sheep wanted.

Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a thug.  He goes along with his ultra-capitalist Texan community, and never questions "the authorities".

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... if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...

If a Peak Oil collapse occurs first, we might escape the worst of the Climate Change collapse, but otherwise the CC collapse will cause a collapse of Capitalism (via insurance premiums and infrastructure destr
Quote
uction).  The climate models work best for short-term predictions, then medium-term predictions and long-term predictions are silly, because we don't know what will happen and can't model it.  There are no "tipping points" seen in any of the models being modeled now.

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You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution.
Quote
It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.
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you are a knave.
Er, what ?
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I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here.
No.

Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Eddie on February 23, 2020, 07:07:51 AM
Sorry I misrepresented you....so as you say.....you really want people like me to bomb government buildings.....like Timothy McVey, more or less. But with the aim of saving the planett and building better government.  Sounds a lot like the Unabomber Manifesto.....

So I wouldn't die on the barricades....I'd be shot by police as a terrorist or I'd rot in prison. No thank you anyway.


Fools and knaves....after ten years of studying collapse. I put most of the known writers on the subject into one of those two categories. Most are fools, pursuing some ideal. Don Quixotes of Doom is what I call them. The woods are full of 'em. Almost all the cut-and posters here fit that mold.

But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups  or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

Screen Shot 2020 02 23 at 8 57 53 AM
Screen Shot 2020 02 23 at 8 57 53 AM


My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

You came here originally hoping to find some willing eco-terrorists you could assist in carrying out some monkey-wrenching. You, in your house in the jungle, would have never been much at risk.....too bad nobody who read you here was willing. The idealists here are not young and hot-headed...and I'm not even an idealist....so it was never going to be me. I'm just glad there wasn't some dumb schmuck more than willing to participate. Maybe you've had better luck elsewhere. I hope not.

No alert? Maybe you dropped in at random a few days after I mentioned you for the first time in a year?  Amazing coincidence, I guess.

Global Capitalism is going to collapse regardless. You (and XR) need not worry. If you want to see a chart that's gone exponential, that's the one to look at. Wealth inequality is completely unsustainable.

Wealth is not merely moving uphill. It's all concentrating at the very nose-bleed tip-top. The .01% of the 1 %. At this rate, soon, one guy will own everything.

Therefore, something will change. If consumers have no money to drive the engine of global capitalism, it seizes.

 I'm not sure how it happens exactly. Perhaps the socialists really will have their day soon, and at the ballot box.....if the conservatives (Republicans here) don't completely corrupt the constitution . They are well on their way to trying to subvert the actual election process, rather than just being satisfied with getting most of what they want, most of the time. It's been mostly accomplished at the state level with Koch money, while the Democrats were busy diversifying themselves into irrelevancy. We're about to be Brazil.

I now think we see the US continuing to limp along....while much of the world gets de-powered in a cascading waterfall of collapse.

The rest of this century will see more mass migrations that we can even begin to think about....it's just starting.....







Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: azozeo on February 23, 2020, 09:06:09 AM
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Eddie: People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.

Complete bullshit. I argued AGAINST people clashing with police in the streets, where the set pieces always favour the well-armed, well-trained squads.  I argue in favour of using darkness and quietness to go to an obvious government target and fire-bombing it and returning home un-arrested and un-harmed.  Wanting to turn people into cannon fodder is pure evil, and its disgusting that you would ever think of saying that.

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How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

As I have said repeatedly, they have had a very bad press from the CIA and hence historians.  You have spent your whole life hearing the same pack of lies, and you haven't recognised it for the propaganda it was.  You believe it, all of it. 

You think Mao was a Communist, but he never did a thing that communists would want to do, apart from leading a "people's revolution".  What communist society would have ultra low wages ?  What communist society would trade pollution for jobs ?
But China has to remain a communist society in the Capitalist propaganda, because that makes them BAD people and OK to kill.

Stalin started with a broken, bankrupt, starving country and made it into the #2 superpower.  Free health and education, including university level.  He won WW2 (compare the areas of German control taken).  US outrage at his keeping of that territory caused the Cold War, while the US kept all it took and called it NATO, and STILL DOES.  The only thing he didn't do was make trendy new trash, which the sheep wanted.

Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a thug.  He goes along with his ultra-capitalist Texan community, and never questions "the authorities".

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... if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...

If a Peak Oil collapse occurs first, we might escape the worst of the Climate Change collapse, but otherwise the CC collapse will cause a collapse of Capitalism (via insurance premiums and infrastructure destr
Quote
uction).  The climate models work best for short-term predictions, then medium-term predictions and long-term predictions are silly, because we don't know what will happen and can't model it.  There are no "tipping points" seen in any of the models being modeled now.

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You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution.
Quote
It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.
Quote
you are a knave.
Er, what ?
Quote
I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here.
No.

Somebody SLAP ME......... Palloy is vertical. Quick, check goog earth for the red sea parting in 2020

http://www.youtube.com/v/OqCTq3EeDcY&fs=1


Palloy, Violence begets violence. They're are better choices to beat these parasitic psychopaths
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: RE on February 23, 2020, 10:19:05 AM

Fools and knaves....after ten years of studying collapse. I put most of the known writers on the subject into one of those two categories. Most are fools, pursuing some ideal. Don Quixotes of Doom is what I call them. The woods are full of 'em. Almost all the cut-and posters here fit that mold.

But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups  or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

So where do I fit in this taxonomy?  ???   :icon_scratch:  I'm not a "cut & poster" and I run no ads, have no paywall and don't try to organize people into armed groups.

Mainly, I just try to teach people how to Prep Up and examine the Economics and Psychology of Colllapse.

RE
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 23, 2020, 06:52:11 PM

So where do I fit in this taxonomy?  ???   :icon_scratch:  I'm not a "cut & poster" and I run no ads, have no paywall and don't try to organize people into armed groups.

Mainly, I just try to teach people how to Prep Up and examine the Economics and Psychology of Colllapse.

RE

Perhaps one is a "cut-'n-paster" if one posts articles of interest to others.

This is what passive-aggressive behavior looks like.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 23, 2020, 07:21:27 PM
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Eddie: My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

I have never been called a knave before, probably because it is an Old English word and no longer used.  Use collapse "as a lever arm" is also very unusual English.  I'm certainly not trying to make money out of rebellion, so that leaves supporting a highly questionable agenda I see as fundamental to my ideals.  I'm at a total loss to understand that.

When I see angry people marching in the streets and being confronted by well-armed, well-trained police, using batons, tear gas, pepper fog, water cannon, rubber bullets and percussion grenades, I say "That is not the way to do it.  They should use asymmetric tactics. The police can't guard everywhere, all the time, so catch them unawares.  The target should always be obvious and exclude harming "the people", and leaving behind your message daubed on a wall or the road."

I think that analysis has some value.  It certainly doesn't mean I am going to do it myself, as there isn't a military dictatorship here, and it doesn't mean I am trying to manipulate YOU into doing it. 

The ideas come from "Minimanual of the Urban Guerrilla" by Carlos Marighella, who was a guerrilla fighter against the military dictatorship in Brazil in 1969.  He ended up being ambushed by the police and shot dead.  www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm (http://www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm) . He was a Marxist-Leninist but that is irrelevant to the rebellion side of things.  Obviously I wouldn't expect YOU to get involved, you being uninterested in politics and a millionaire, always whining about your taxes.  In the event of a collapse, you might want to look it up.  It all depends on how ANGRY you are.

The CIA's Freedom Fighters Manual for the Contras in Nicaragua sees it similarly "What the free Nicaraguan can do in order to tie down the Marxist Tyranny" www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm (http://www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm) .
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 23, 2020, 07:50:24 PM
Hi Palloy,

New to see you on this side of the dirt. In re your new flame Putin,

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Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a
thug.

Fixed that for you.

One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead? Sergei Skripal, Boris Nemtsov, Alexander Litvinenko, and journalists Anna Politkovskaya, Natalia Estemirova, Anastasiya Baburova, and others would all like a word.

And then there is Sergei Maqgnitsky.

You might wish to reply as regards state sponsored terror and murder with some classic whataboutism, such as the Global War on Terra@, and drone warfare and assassination from above. Cheerfully conceded. All of the perpetrators should stand hooded and cuffed in a docket in The Hague.

But meanwhile, I'm talking about Putin.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 23, 2020, 08:39:10 PM
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But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups  or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

You can't be serious.  You think I'm trying to manipulate/organise Diners into armed groups ?  You are the one who is going on about guns all the time, and bringing up Ted Kaczynski, not me.  All I am saying is: "peaceful protest DOESN'T WORK to make governments change their minds", unless it is on a subject that doesn't matter to them, like same-sex marriage.  And voting once every four years DOESN'T WORK, the elite will always have more power, including ownership of all the media and control of the police.  CIA/FBI/NSA/MIC don't even have elections, and remain the same regardless of the President.  Company Directors have to be rich, and the workers don't have a say in the running of the company.

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so as you say.....you really want people like me to bomb government buildings
Who said anything about bombs?   I said gasoline, which is common and legal to own.  When sprayed from a squeezy bottle, it makes a splendid fuse to put you at a distance from the real action (see Mythbusters). Who said anything about "wanting" ? 

I think you have a screw loose. "Knave" indeed !

When economic collapse comes (for you a comfortable 20 years off in the future) you will be penniless and cut off from government agencies.  Your local community will meet to discuss the situation.  I want you to THINK about it now, as to what you will say.  Do you want "freedom and democracy" and everybody with guns again, and all the inequality it brings, or do you want to try something else ?  Nobody on the Diner wants to discuss this, but it could happen TODAY (well, Monday).
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 23, 2020, 09:05:08 PM
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Surly: One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead?

So you think Putin is a thug.  But you don't know anything about what happens in Russia, only what you learn from the media.
 
So its what you see on TV and read in the newspapers and on Facebook.

Have you never heard it said that the CIA plants stories to demonise its enemies? Or that Russia is an oligarchy with all sorts of Mafia-like connections? 

And yet you have assessed all the evidence and come to a final conclusion that ... is exactly like what the CIA says it is.

You have been propagandised.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 23, 2020, 09:59:31 PM
Complete non-sequitur.
There were 2 program on TV last night about North Korea, the first by Michael Palin (of Python fame).  Every single sentence in his script was "Everything seems perfectly normal, but that's because they have been told to look normal by the sinister state government apparatus."  It started with the station where his train entered NK from China, "Lots of military people present" - at the international border, no less!   It ended with the NK equivalent of "May Day" celebrations with the workers gathering in the park and singing and drinking and dancing into the night.  The people were very well-dressed and having a good time, but what about "somewhere else" where they are not so well-off, and tightly controlled by the brutal and dictatorial regime ?

The second was a US production  that relied on an ex-CIA psychologist, who specialised in what kind of people the leaders are.  He, not ever having met any of the Kims, said "You cannot understand Kim Jong Un without understanding Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il" and proceeded to tear them all apart.  The ONLY evidence came from defectors or captured NKs who hadn't committed suicide (like they had been told by the President).

You may remember the power struggle over a tree on the border, that had been planted by Kim Il Sung, and was blocking both side's view of the DMZ.  The US just went in and started trimming it, and when NK objected strongly, they came back and chainsawed it down.  When Kim Il Sung backed down, it was treated like a great victory for Freedom and Democracy.  "It was the only time Kim was ever known to back down."

No one asked "How can a communist country be run by a dynasty of dictators?" or if they were really dictators at all.

Thus is propaganda vented by the US on Australian TV.  Palin has gone down in my estimation.  No one could have swallowed that pathetic nonsense, or could they? 

Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 24, 2020, 04:04:16 AM
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Surly: One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead?

So you think Putin is a thug.  But you don't know anything about what happens in Russia, only what you learn from the media.
 
So its what you see on TV and read in the newspapers and on Facebook.

Have you never heard it said that the CIA plants stories to demonise its enemies? Or that Russia is an oligarchy with all sorts of Mafia-like connections? 

And yet you have assessed all the evidence and come to a final conclusion that ... is exactly like what the CIA says it is.

You have been propagandised.

I readily concede The CIA infiltration of all American media, made much easier by the fact that its practitioners are so easy to slobber on the phalluses of their paymasters. There is a reason real, authentic leftists have been deplatformed in this country for 40 years.

Stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I've been filtering corporate agitprop to attempt to distill facts for nearly 50 years. Stick your sanctimony elsewhere.

That said, you have altogether too many bodies to bury-- literally-- to aver that Putin is not a thug. They mount like cordwood. Putin is what Trump aspires to be: a mafia-style authoritarian and a mob boss for whom murder is just another tool in the toolbox. All carefully deniable, of course. Putin is much smarter, with a KGB background and the capacity to read something more complicated than a gum-wrapper.

Like the leaders Trump praises: Kim, Duterte, Xi Jinping, el-Sisi, Erdogan.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: azozeo on February 24, 2020, 10:54:11 AM
Quote
Eddie: My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

I have never been called a knave before, probably because it is an Old English word and no longer used.  Use collapse "as a lever arm" is also very unusual English.  I'm certainly not trying to make money out of rebellion, so that leaves supporting a highly questionable agenda I see as fundamental to my ideals.  I'm at a total loss to understand that.

When I see angry people marching in the streets and being confronted by well-armed, well-trained police, using batons, tear gas, pepper fog, water cannon, rubber bullets and percussion grenades, I say "That is not the way to do it.  They should use asymmetric tactics. The police can't guard everywhere, all the time, so catch them unawares.  The target should always be obvious and exclude harming "the people", and leaving behind your message daubed on a wall or the road."

I think that analysis has some value.  It certainly doesn't mean I am going to do it myself, as there isn't a military dictatorship here, and it doesn't mean I am trying to manipulate YOU into doing it. 

The ideas come from "Minimanual of the Urban Guerrilla" by Carlos Marighella, who was a guerrilla fighter against the military dictatorship in Brazil in 1969.  He ended up being ambushed by the police and shot dead.  www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm (http://www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm) . He was a Marxist-Leninist but that is irrelevant to the rebellion side of things.  Obviously I wouldn't expect YOU to get involved, you being uninterested in politics and a millionaire, always whining about your taxes.  In the event of a collapse, you might want to look it up.  It all depends on how ANGRY you are.

The CIA's Freedom Fighters Manual for the Contras in Nicaragua sees it similarly "What the free Nicaraguan can do in order to tie down the Marxist Tyranny" www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm (http://www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm) .


You sure know how to light up the crowd. 1 post & the blood pressure around this happy haunt has tripled. Atta' boy Palloy. (hey that rhymes)
Maybe I'll reincarnate as a cracker ass rappah'
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 24, 2020, 05:39:05 PM
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That said, you have altogether too many bodies to bury-- literally-- to aver that Putin is not a thug.

On your list of bodies was Sergei Skripal, who isn't dead.  He wasn't killed by exposure to Novichok, because he WOULD have been dead.  Likewise his daughter and the policeman. He was a spy and double agent for UK.  That's enough to know that you don't have the full story.

Also on the list was Magnitsky.  Read about the case on wikipedia, and you will see no mention of Putin, except when he signed the retaliatory legislation against the stupid Clinton legislation.  Medvedev is mentioned twice. Magnitsky investigated a tax fraud and had accused police, the judiciary, tax officials, bankers, and the Russian mafia of fraud.  It is obvious that the public doesn't have the complete picture, and that the picture doesn't include Putin.

How can you say you have been  "filtering corporate agitprop to attempt to distill facts for nearly 50 years", and yet you put those two cases down as "Putin did it", and spell both victim names wrong.

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Stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

 I don't, but if you might have been brainwashed by the media, I point it out.  The alternative media never bought into that rubbish, so why should you?
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 25, 2020, 04:53:57 AM
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That said, you have altogether too many bodies to bury-- literally-- to aver that Putin is not a thug.

On your list of bodies was Sergei Skripal, who isn't dead.  He wasn't killed by exposure to Novichok, because he WOULD have been dead.  Likewise his daughter and the policeman. He was a spy and double agent for UK.  That's enough to know that you don't have the full story.

Also on the list was Magnitsky.  Read about the case on wikipedia, and you will see no mention of Putin, except when he signed the retaliatory legislation against the stupid Clinton legislation.  Medvedev is mentioned twice. Magnitsky investigated a tax fraud and had accused police, the judiciary, tax officials, bankers, and the Russian mafia of fraud.  It is obvious that the public doesn't have the complete picture, and that the picture doesn't include Putin.

How can you say you have been  "filtering corporate agitprop to attempt to distill facts for nearly 50 years", and yet you put those two cases down as "Putin did it", and spell both victim names wrong.

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Stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

 I don't, but if you might have been brainwashed by the media, I point it out.  The alternative media never bought into that rubbish, so why should you?

Does anything of import go on in Russia without Putin's assent? You might be a Putin stooge if...
Your reliance on Wikipedia to defend Putin in re Magnitsky is just totes adorbs. Serge Magnitsky was Bill Browder's lawyer. Putin came after Browder's winnings on trumped up and false income tax charges, and Magnitsky led Browder's defense. For which he was imprisoned, denied medical treatment, beaten and killed. And you want to give Putin a pass? Puhleeze.

Bodies of Putin's victims are still stacked like cordwood, and you are in here prattling about "world's greatest statesman?" Just don't get on his bad side or owe him money.

"Alternative media" include such bullshit as "Natural News," "Before It's News," rense.com and other sites not worth the time of day, so one wonders what your point is. But keep flailing. Everyone but you is brainwashed. We get it.

Stooge.
Title: A Word From Bill Browder
Post by: Surly1 on February 25, 2020, 06:07:11 AM
From 2018.

I'm Bill Browder. Here's the Biggest Mistake Putin Made When Trying to Get Access to Me Through Trump (https://time.com/5340545/bill-browder-vladimir-putin-magnitsky-act-donald-trump/)

William Browder, chief executive officer of Hermitage Capital Management, takes his seat as he arrives for a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing titled 'Oversight of the Foreign Agents Registration Act and Attempts to Influence U.S. Elections' on July 27, 2017 in Washington, D.C.
Drew Angerer—Getty Images

I wasn’t watching the Donald Trump–Vladimir Putin press conference from Helsinki. But when my phone started burning up with messages, I knew something was going on. I quickly discovered that Putin had mentioned me by name. No journalist had asked about me. He just brought me up out of the blue.

Putin offered to allow American investigators to interview the 12 Russian intelligence agents just indicted by Special Counsel Robert Mueller in exchange for allowing Russians to have access to me and those close to me. This is no idle threat. For the last ten years, I’ve been trying to avoid getting killed by Putin’s regime, and there already exists a trail of dead bodies connected to its desire to see me dead. Amazingly, Trump stood next to him, appearing to nod approvingly. He even later said that he considered it “an incredible offer.”

Both Trump and Putin Just Denied Russian Meddling in the 2016 Election. Here's What They Said

Trump resisted when asked Monday to condemn Russian meddling in the election. Instead, he complained about a Democratic National Committee computer server and emails belonging to Hillary Clinton, the Democrat he defeated to win the presidency.

I’m lodged so firmly under Putin’s skin because I’m the person responsible for getting the Magnitsky Act passed in the United States in 2012. This is a law that allows the U.S. government to freeze assets and ban visas of human-rights violators around the world. Some of these human-rights violators had killed Sergei Magnitsky, my Russian lawyer who was murdered in a Moscow jail for uncovering a massive $230 million government-corruption scheme that we’ve since traced to known Putin cronies. In essence, Putin received some of the proceeds of this crime, and he is terrified that the Magnitsky Act could be applied to his offshore fortune, which is probably one of the largest amassed in modern times.

The Helsinki summit is not the first time my name has come up at a Putin press conference. Back in 2006 at the G-8 Conference in St. Petersburg, a young reporter for the Moscow Times asked why I’d been denied an entry visa to Russia and declared a threat to national security, all with no explanation. She pointed out that I was the biggest foreign investor in the Russian stock market, and that the prime minister of the United Kingdom had asked Putin about my situation earlier that day.

Putin frowned. “To be honest, I don’t know why this particular person has been refused entry to Russia. I can imagine that this person has broken the laws of our country, and if others do the same we’ll refuse them entry, too.”

“This person.” Putin almost never utters the names of his enemies — except for mine, which he lately seems to utter at every opportunity. To my mind, this can only mean that he is seriously rattled.

Since 2012, Putin has made it perhaps his largest foreign policy priority to have the Magnitsky Act repealed. But none of his efforts have worked. Not only has it not been repealed, it’s spread to six additional countries, including the United Kingdom, Canada, the Baltic states and Gibraltar. There are eight other countries with Magnitsky Acts on deck: Sweden, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Australia, South Africa and Ukraine. The Magnitsky Act is going viral, and countries that have Magnitsky Acts are sanctioning Putin’s cronies, who I imagine soon will be sanctioned by other countries as well.

In addition, the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign has investigated and found the $230 million that Sergei Magnitsky exposed and was killed over. There arenow a number of live law-enforcement investigations around the worlddetermining just who benefited from this crime. These have resulted in tens of millions of dollars of frozen assets. Furthermore, these investigations don’t only put at risk the beneficiaries of this crime, but the benificiaries of many other similar crimes. These people are ready to kill to keep their money. Losing it would be devastating.

Putin’s latest allegation that I donated $400 million to Hillary Clinton is so ludicrous and untrue that it falls into delusion. I’ve never made a political donation to Hillary Clinton or any other political candidate. It’s in the same category as other Russian government allegations against me: they accused me of being a serial killer; they accused me of being a CIA/MI6 agent determined to destroy the Russian government; and they accused me of somehow stealing $4.8 billion of IMF money back in the 1990s that was destined for the Russian Treasury. These guys have seriously lost their cool and are beginning to make mistakes.

The biggest mistake that Putin made in his offer today to effectively swap me for the 12 Russian agents is that he went to the wrong head of state. Although I was born in America, I emigrated to the United Kingdom 29 years ago and am a British citizen. If he really wants me, he better go talk to Theresa May, who might have a few choice words for him after Russian agents spread the military-grade nerve agent Novichok across the cathedral town of Salisbury, England.

Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 25, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
Quote
Bowder: ... Russian government allegations against me: they accused me of being a serial killer; they accused me of being a CIA/MI6 agent determined to destroy the Russian government; and they accused me of somehow stealing $4.8 billion of IMF money back in the 1990s that was destined for the Russian Treasury.

Does that make his words reliable, or does it make him probably a CIA/MI6 agent ?

Quote
[A young reporter for the Moscow Times] pointed out that I was the biggest foreign investor in the Russian stock market,

He would be the last person I would trust and base any accusations on.

Quote
Surly: "Alternative media" include such bullshit as "Natural News," "Before It's News," rense.com and other sites not worth the time of day,

Oh, come on, I would never quote from THEM !  I leave that to AZ.
I'm talking about thesaker.is, moonofalabama.org, theautomaticearth.com, etc.
when you are filtering stories and they contain things like "CIA, double agent, investor in the Russian stock market, Russian living in London, fleeing for their lives from ..." you KNOW you are unlikely to get the real truth, so you can ignore any of their accusations.

In the final analysis, if you think like the CIA, you have been brainwashed by the CIA/MSM.  The CIA is the most evil organisation on the planet.  They were set up to start the Cold War, and have now got so powerful that the CIA Director, Brennan, lied to Congress about snooping on the "committee to regulate the CIA", when there was an apology letter from him on file (not sent and released in error).  He was never indicted for lying to Congress and went on to be a talking head on MSM.

"Putin is a thug" is CIA propaganda.  Eddie and Surly, surprisingly, have swallowed the propaganda whole, and makes DD look silly.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: K-Dog on February 25, 2020, 09:32:37 PM
Quote
Bowder: ... Russian government allegations against me: they accused me of being a serial killer; they accused me of being a CIA/MI6 agent determined to destroy the Russian government; and they accused me of somehow stealing $4.8 billion of IMF money back in the 1990s that was destined for the Russian Treasury.

Does that make his words reliable, or does it make him probably a CIA/MI6 agent ?

Quote
[A young reporter for the Moscow Times] pointed out that I was the biggest foreign investor in the Russian stock market,

He would be the last person I would trust and base any accusations on.

Quote
Surly: "Alternative media" include such bullshit as "Natural News," "Before It's News," rense.com and other sites not worth the time of day,

Oh, come on, I would never quote from THEM !  I leave that to AZ.
I'm talking about thesaker.is, moonofalabama.org, theautomaticearth.com, etc.
when you are filtering stories and they contain things like "CIA, double agent, investor in the Russian stock market, Russian living in London, fleeing for their lives from ..." you KNOW you are unlikely to get the real truth, so you can ignore any of their accusations.

In the final analysis, if you think like the CIA, you have been brainwashed by the CIA/MSM.  The CIA is the most evil organisation on the planet.  They were set up to start the Cold War, and have now got so powerful that the CIA Director, Brennan, lied to Congress about snooping on the "committee to regulate the CIA", when there was an apology letter from him on file (not sent and released in error).  He was never indicted for lying to Congress and went on to be a talking head on MSM.

"Putin is a thug" is CIA propaganda.  Eddie and Surly, surprisingly, have swallowed the propaganda whole, and makes DD look silly.

Easy for you to say.  From where we sit teams like the ATF, the FBI, the INS and a few others under the Fusion Umbrella are more evil.  Most Americans as they merely exist and require no discipline are blithely unaware so your error is forgiven; it being off the radar.

And I know a word the mere typing of which will cause as spike in website hits by one or more alphabet agencies.

Cascadia
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: K-Dog on February 25, 2020, 09:36:31 PM

Coronavirus spreads to Germany, Switzerland, Croatia, Iraq, Spain, Algeria, Austria and Brazil while cases explode in Italy by 45% in one day


https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-25-coronavirus-spreads-to-germany-switzerland-croatia-iraq-spain-austria-italy.html (https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-25-coronavirus-spreads-to-germany-switzerland-croatia-iraq-spain-austria-italy.html)

(Natural News)

Over the last 36 hours or so, the coronavirus spread has now been confirmed in a slew of new countries, including Germany, Switzerland, Croatia, Iraq, Spain, Algeria and Austria. Cases are already confirmed in Belgium, Lebanon, Finland, Sweden, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Israel, Cambodia, Nepal, Afghanistan, Russia and many other countries.

An infection is now suspected in Brazil, which would make it the first South American nation to confirm a coronavirus infection, bringing the virus to a whole new continent. According to Brazil’s Health Ministry, one test of a local patient has reportedly come back positive. A second confirmation test is necessary to make the diagnosis “official.”

These are irrefutable facts, yet we still have naysayers throughout the media and across the cultural landscape who claim none of this is happening, that the coronavirus bioweapon system is “just another flu,” or that it’s a grand hoax being perpetrated by all these countries as some elaborate staged event to commit economic suicide for some unknown reason.

Pandemic denialism is essentially the “Flat Earth” version of epidemiology. According to the denialists, all the nations listed above are faking it, sacrificing their national economics to carry out some sort of elaborate hoax for some unimaginable reason.

Rush Limbaugh, meanwhile, still insists the coronavirus is just “the flu.” It’s a reminder why highly influential people should stick to their areas of expertise and not wander into areas where they very quickly demonstrate their shocking technical ignorance and lack of knowledge.
Coronavirus cases explode in Italy by 45% overnight

Coronavirus infections exploded overnight in Italy, rising to 322 confirmed cases, an increase of 100 from the previous day.

To try to stop the spread of the virus, Italy is running armed road blocks surrounding 12 towns, prohibiting road travel.

According to The Epoch Times, no one in Italy even knows the source of the outbreak, completely obliterating any argument from WHO officials that this is “contained” or “not a pandemic.” Via TET:

Italian health officials haven’t yet identified the source of the outbreak. Angelo Borrelli, the head of the Italian civil protection department, said the case count grew from 222 to 322, representing a 45% increase, in a 24-hour period from Monday evening to Tuesday evening.

According to the pandemic denialists, of course, Italy must be faking it for some reason. Yes, it’s an insane idea, but that’s what is now being promoted by the left-wing media and even some conservative journalists.

Notably, the very bureaucrat in Iran who told everybody the virus was no big deal is now infected himself. Also via TET:

Only a day earlier, a coughing and heavily sweating Iraj Harirchi said at a televised news conference in Tehran that “the situation is almost stable in the country.”

Health Ministry spokesman Kianoush Jahanpour confirmed Harirchi had the virus. Harirchi himself posted an online video saying he had it and that he had quarantined himself at home. He promised that authorities would bring the virus under control.

That’s reassuring, huh? The very government bureaucrat sitting in quarantine after accidentally getting infected is telling us all the government has it under control. The irony is almost pure comedy, if it weren’t so tragic.
San Franciso declares state of emergency while media tells us there’s no emergency at all

San Francisco, meanwhile, has just declared a state of emergency over the coronavirus, even when CDC officials claim there are essentially zero confirmed cases in San Francisco.

According to the SF Chronicle, Mayor London Breed said more resources need to be allocated, “to make sure we are prepared,” even while the entire media establishment in America claims there’s nothing to be prepared for in the first place.

So why did San Fran just declare an emergency, then?

The CDC’s insane policy of “Don’t Test, Don’t Tell” is keeping America in the dark while the epidemic explodes across U.S. cities.

Hear all my coronavirus podcasts at Pandemic.news
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Surly1 on February 26, 2020, 04:18:44 AM
Quote
Bowder: ... Russian government allegations against me: they accused me of being a serial killer; they accused me of being a CIA/MI6 agent determined to destroy the Russian government; and they accused me of somehow stealing $4.8 billion of IMF money back in the 1990s that was destined for the Russian Treasury.

Does that make his words reliable, or does it make him probably a CIA/MI6 agent ?

Quote
[A young reporter for the Moscow Times] pointed out that I was the biggest foreign investor in the Russian stock market,

He would be the last person I would trust and base any accusations on.

Quote
Surly: "Alternative media" include such bullshit as "Natural News," "Before It's News," rense.com and other sites not worth the time of day,

Oh, come on, I would never quote from THEM !  I leave that to AZ.
I'm talking about thesaker.is, moonofalabama.org, theautomaticearth.com, etc.
when you are filtering stories and they contain things like "CIA, double agent, investor in the Russian stock market, Russian living in London, fleeing for their lives from ..." you KNOW you are unlikely to get the real truth, so you can ignore any of their accusations.

In the final analysis, if you think like the CIA, you have been brainwashed by the CIA/MSM.  The CIA is the most evil organisation on the planet.  They were set up to start the Cold War, and have now got so powerful that the CIA Director, Brennan, lied to Congress about snooping on the "committee to regulate the CIA", when there was an apology letter from him on file (not sent and released in error).  He was never indicted for lying to Congress and went on to be a talking head on MSM.

"Putin is a thug" is CIA propaganda.  Eddie and Surly, surprisingly, have swallowed the propaganda whole, and makes DD look silly.

Yep, everyone is blind and/or stupid but you.

This thread proof that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Palloy2 on February 26, 2020, 05:16:32 PM
Quote
Surly: Yep, everyone is blind and/or stupid but you.

This thread proof that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I didn't say anyone was blind and/or stupid.  I said:
Quote
Palloy: when you are filtering stories and they contain things like "CIA, double agent, investor in the Russian stock market, Russian living in London, fleeing for their lives from ..." you KNOW you are unlikely to get the real truth, so you can ignore any of their accusations.

Are you maintaining the truthfulness of you own CIA ?

I should correct myself on "knave" - I HAVE heard it before, in a song "Until the real thing comes along" by Fats Waller ( a favourite of my father) . He sings "I'd be a beggar or a knave for you (whatever that is), and if that isn't love, ...". Incredibly, there is a YT of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LljpLw8yRwM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LljpLw8yRwM)
Title: Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
Post by: Eddie on February 27, 2020, 08:58:41 AM
Quote
Surly: Yep, everyone is blind and/or stupid but you.

This thread proof that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I didn't say anyone was blind and/or stupid.  I said:
Quote
Palloy: when you are filtering stories and they contain things like "CIA, double agent, investor in the Russian stock market, Russian living in London, fleeing for their lives from ..." you KNOW you are unlikely to get the real truth, so you can ignore any of their accusations.

Are you maintaining the truthfulness of you own CIA ?

I should correct myself on "knave" - I HAVE heard it before, in a song "Until the real thing comes along" by Fats Waller ( a favourite of my father) . He sings "I'd be a beggar or a knave for you (whatever that is), and if that isn't love, ...". Incredibly, there is a YT of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LljpLw8yRwM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LljpLw8yRwM)

I'm a Fats Waller fan, fwiw. Those old film clips on YT are from the movie Stormy Weather...which wasn't much for plot, but was a musical tour de force. All black cast, made (if memory serves) in 1944. 

I look for that kind of video.....lots of good ones out there now. I'm a big Hoagy Carmichael fan too.