Doomstead Diner Menu => Doomsteading => Topic started by: agelbert on June 09, 2013, 06:59:41 PM

Title: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 09, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
Quote
You tryin' to say that women only care about their looks?  That we are just there for you Men to oogle at?"--I could see that being an issue, possibly.

No, I was not thinking of the painting or vanity. I was thinking of the female symbol.
Quote
Female sign ♀  it´s a gender sign derived from astrological symbols, denoting the classical planet Venus. Also female sign represents feminism in philosophy and sociology. This symbol has been in use since the Renaissance also denoting elements in alchemy, specifically the metal copper. Female sign ♀ is also believed by some to represent a hand mirror, with the top half of the symbol representing the actual mirror, and the bottom half representing the handle of the mirror. It was first used to denote the effective gender of plants by Carolus Linnaeus in 1751.

http://fsymbols.com/signs/female/ (http://fsymbols.com/signs/female/)

Quote
I DO love the Mythological reference, though (hence: Aphrodite Photography Inc.) ;)

That's cool.  :icon_mrgreen: I like Euphoria's Perch too. And that gramophone GREEN SPEAKER is OUTSTANDINGLY GORGEOUS! It looks like a green Morning Glory Trumpet.  :emthup: I think it's a great symbol and kind of reminds me a little of the horn of plenty.  :icon_sunny:

I've been away researching batteries and I come back to see LD wanting to shoot a zombie reader and, don't worry, I get it about the "buy you a drink" and all. I'm just shooting for some mass appeal without putting a "If you aren't a wild and wooly untamable type that looks like they just left a Hell's angel's bar after whipping everybody there, we don't want'cha!"  :emthdown:  :P

I think that is a tad on the extreme side, don't you?  ;)

Believe me, I know  all about Southern humor. I went out with a girl in college that scared the hell out of me in college with a joke she told me. She was from North Carolina. She asked me what the definition of a virgin was in North Carolina. I didn't know and didn't DARE venture to guess (I'd already heard the one about Jewish virgins from my Jewish friends and didn't know this gal too well YET  :icon_mrgreen:).

She said a virgin in North Carolina was a girl who could outrun all her male relatives.
She thought is was hilarious.  :o  I just didn't think it was funny at all so I'm a bit of a square in the self deprecating humor area.  :emthdown:

Anyway, it takes all kinds to make a world and we can alienate the wrong people if we aren't willing to look at things from the other person's point of view as to what they like and don't like. You aren't looking for a spouse here or even a best friend; just a reader that might buy what you sell. From that larger group you MIGHT get some great friends and recruit SUN members.

But it's your call. I'm glad you took marketing. That will certainly help.  :emthup:  :icon_sunny:

LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 
Most of them, unlike you, are followers. Do you, a leader, want to save as many as you can or judge them beforehand?
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 09, 2013, 07:50:25 PM
LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 
Most of them, unlike you, are followers. Do you, a leader, want to save as many as you can or judge them beforehand?

Well I'm not trying to judge anyone.  But I'm not trying to recruit zombies either.  The point is, I've spent a lot of time trying to convince people about the major problems, and it always ends the same.  People have to come to this information on their own.  They have to be ready to hear it.  Trying to convince zombies is about like trying to force a horse that ain't thirsty to drink from the water you just led him to. 

So zombies are cool and all...but I don't want to have anything to do with them. 

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Agelbert. 

My view of a person is not static.  It's based on their actions...and the words that come out of their mouth. 
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: JoeP on June 10, 2013, 05:30:35 AM
LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 

Some dude looking for zombies:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3118/2583897347_cdd802fc82_z.jpg)
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: g on June 10, 2013, 05:44:16 AM
LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 

Some dude looking for zombies:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3118/2583897347_cdd802fc82_z.jpg)
Wheww, Got a wiff of that all the way in Boston. Twas an ill wind that smelt not well.  ::) ::) ::)

Please JoeP, get back to the NEWZ! :kloguck:    :laugh:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: Surly1 on June 10, 2013, 06:46:20 AM
LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 

Some dude looking for zombies:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3118/2583897347_cdd802fc82_z.jpg)
Wheww, Got a wiff of that all the way in Boston. Twas an ill wind that smelt not well.  ::) ::) ::)

Please JoeP, get back to the NEWZ! :kloguck:    :laugh:

GAP, indeed.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 10, 2013, 06:48:51 AM
Define a Zombie.

Up until now, I had assumed your definition was someone who didn't want to work.   :icon_scratch:

The Foxstead or Doomstead or SUN project or whatever is not a group of individuals wishing to overthrow a corrupt federal government. If you think it is, then we certainly will disagree. :emthdown:

I worked for nearly 20 years for the federal government and I'm NOT a ZOMBIE. I kept my head down and ate a lot of shit for the good of my family and I'm NOT a ZOMBIE. I was a model citizen and I didn't know what the CIA or anybody else in the government was doing here or overseas. I know now but I have this intrinsic knowledge of what PISSING IN THE WIND gets you, SIR!

THINK, LD.

IF a collapse comes, you want to survive it. GOOD!  Do you think you are the only diner full to the brim with frustration at the rampant stupidity and ignorance out there?  Did it ever occur to you that when you got to the corner, several of us had been there and back a few times?

Do you think I write here just to counter what you say or give you a hard time? I'm not demanding that you take my advice. That's your business.  But I say you HAVE passed judgement on way too many people without knowing them. I say you are blaming the victim and you are WRONG.

I know you won't agree. That's fine with me but I urge you to consider that your "If they don't like it, FUCK EM'" is a fine attitude for a millionaire that is independently wealthy but will not make your life any easier.

You get pissed off way too easily. I don't understand that. We am your friend here, not your enemy.  BUT, if the only way you will allow a friendship is if I cuss right along with you and joke in exactly the same way then you will be disappointed. I celebrate you being YOU but that doesn't mean I wish to adopt your mannerisms.

I am quite satisfied with the way I am, thank you very much. Sorry you don't share that view.

Well Agelbert...seems I've ruffled your feathers with this one.  You ask a lot of good questions, and I don't want to take it lightly. 

Not wanting to work just makes you lazy.

I think maybe this deserves a blog on my part.  I'll try to write it after I get back from taking the first microbiology exam that I'm probably going to fail.  Taking micro during the summer session is insane.

But for now, I'll try to briefly explain what a Zombie is.  But honestly, if you've kept up with Epiphany Now you'd have a pretty good idea about what I consider a zombie to be.  So in short, a zombie is someone whom is under the control of the Matrix's hologram.  To me it's just fact, and not a value judgement.  I was a zombie until I got out of the Navy...pretty much.  It's not about thinking the way I do, or having the same humor, or cussin' or not, it's about knowing the objective truth about our society. 

Like I said, I'll write a blog about it cause the question deserves to be answered carefully.  Especially since in many ways it's the opposite of "save as many as you can," which is a noble endeavor.  I don't think not saving zombies is incompatible with that goal.  Basically you have to want to be saved first.  There are plenty of people out there that are not zombies, but have no means...that's where SUN comes in in my opinion.  Let's not forget that one can relinquish one's zombie status by simply pulling their head out of the sand. 

More later...got a zombie test to go take  :P
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: GypsyMama on June 10, 2013, 06:57:41 AM
LD, I recommend you stop looking for zombies under every bush. 

Some dude looking for zombies:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3118/2583897347_cdd802fc82_z.jpg)
Wheww, Got a wiff of that all the way in Boston. Twas an ill wind that smelt not well.  ::) ::) ::)

Please JoeP, get back to the NEWZ! :kloguck:    :laugh:

GAP, indeed.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Daaaaang....Surly!  You beat me to that comment ;)
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: Surly1 on June 10, 2013, 07:22:14 AM
I think maybe this deserves a blog on my part.  I'll try to write it after I get back from taking the first microbiology exam that I'm probably going to fail.  Taking micro during the summer session is insane.

But for now, I'll try to briefly explain what a Zombie is.  But honestly, if you've kept up with Epiphany Now you'd have a pretty good idea about what I consider a zombie to be.  So in short, a zombie is someone whom is under the control of the Matrix's hologram.  To me it's just fact, and not a value judgement.  I was a zombie until I got out of the Navy...pretty much.  It's not about thinking the way I do, or having the same humor, or cussin' or not, it's about knowing the objective truth about our society. 

Like I said, I'll write a blog about it cause the question deserves to be answered carefully.  Especially since in many ways it's the opposite of "save as many as you can," which is a noble endeavor.  I don't think not saving zombies is incompatible with that goal.  Basically you have to want to be saved first.  There are plenty of people out there that are not zombies, but have no means...that's where SUN comes in in my opinion.  Let's not forget that one can relinquish one's zombie status by simply pulling their head out of the sand. 


A wonderful idea, as AG asks some excellent questions. remember that by your definition, we were ALL zombies once.
I am def in the "save as many as you can" camp, which means education, perseverance, and courage.

Ought to be a good article.

Good luck with your test.
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 10, 2013, 10:42:01 AM
http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/2013/06/petroleum-corn-sugared-zombies.html (http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/2013/06/petroleum-corn-sugared-zombies.html)

There you go Agelbert.  My full reply to you.  Thanks for the inspiration  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: GypsyMama on June 10, 2013, 10:45:20 AM
Quote
You tryin' to say that women only care about their looks?  That we are just there for you Men to oogle at?"--I could see that being an issue, possibly.

Well check me out...that could be seen as a feminist response, huh?  ;)
The female symbol makes sense...I just hadn't interpreted "Venus" that way.  Isn't it interesting how different our minds work (our meaning everyone, not just male and female).  I guess your interpretations are all a part of your past experiences...for instance, if I had equated the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" to your female terms, I'd have been on the same page with your meaning. 

I never looked at the female symbol as a mirror before...thanks for that bit of info!  Very interesting!

Glad you liked the horn o' plenty ;)  I thought it was beautiful too.

Quote
Anyway, it takes all kinds to make a world and we can alienate the wrong people if we aren't willing to look at things from the other person's point of view as to what they like and don't like. You aren't looking for a spouse here or even a best friend; just a reader that might buy what you sell. From that larger group you MIGHT get some great friends and recruit SUN members.
Quote

I don't want to alienate people at all...I'm more than willing to study (and sometimes accept) others' viewpoints...I just wanted to get it out there the sort of posts I'd create...sans frilly, mostly.  I suppose I should, however, take your advice and make sure that I do my best to keep any articles I post unbiased.  Good advice.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: agelbert on June 10, 2013, 06:41:41 PM
You are welcome for the inspiration on the zombie topic.  :icon_sunny:

I hope you did well in the microbiology test. :emthup:

I read your article and I think it is a thought binary. The negative part of the binary defines a zombie (evolutionary failure) while the positive part defines an evolutionary success.

The evolutionary success or failure argument is weakened by the FACT that you allow for the possibility that zombies can morph into non-zombies. So, you aren't REALLY talking about evolution, as in positive or negative mutations, but ADAPTATION inside the Homo SAP gene pool.

The ability to adapt to the imposition of the matrix, by recognizing that it is a system that must fail due o it's thermodynamically impossible goal of infinite growth in a finite biosphere, is limited by some skill, awareness, intelligence or all of them together in sufficent amounts, right?

Somewhere along the road of life, you became aware of the matrix.  :o :P :( With the zeal of a convert, you set out to warn your fellow humans. :stop: :argue:

Quote
My efforts were rewarded with more ostracizing and sideways looks than I care to ruminate on. You see, liberating yourself from the Matrix/hologram complex makes you an Outkast. You become an Outkast because you wake up and realize that you've been subsisting by catabolizing your environment in an unsustainable fashion...that same environment that creates a sufficient amount of oxygen and fresh water to keep your zombie ass alive.

It should be clear now what makes a person a zombie.

It is clear from the above quote that you are quite human because, as Maslow's hierarchy attests, lack of peer group acceptance is painful.  :( It is, moreover, a powerful force in behavioral modification. :whip: That is, it is a TOOL of the matrix propaganda machine, is it not?  :icon_scratch:  ;)

IOW it may be quite possible that you DID convince your fellows of the insanity and danger of the matrix and, privately fearing ostracism, they pretended NOT to underand the gravity of your warning ("Hey, let's watch the big game - this subject is depressing!"   ;)).

Your reaction, a road I have been down many many times, is anger at their stupidity, willfull ignorance OR cowardice. :angry5:
 Do you notice I used the word "OR" just now? After all, YOU get it. If THEY don't get it and they aren't mentally retarded, then they are cowards, right?

Now this gets complicated because I am going to make the case that you aren't holding them responsible for their behavior; you are holding them responsible for YOUR present and future behavior. 8)

Let's rewind your life to the Navy. You get trained in radar electronics instead of nukes. You never see combat and you never go AWOL after 117 days at sea. You do your full hitch and land a nice job in IBM after leaving the service.

Somebody comes up to you that had a hard time in the war and tells you about the matrix. You promise to look into it   :icon_study:  because you respect that guy's opnion and, after some research  :o,  you are able to see the propaganda pattern out there labeling everyone that questions the "approved" historical and present status quo as a conspiracy nut.

You study the numbers and you realize that, not only is there a matrix going on keeping people numb, but the system cannot help but implode. :o 

You start saving money and prepping but you don't tell the dude that alerted you. What you tell him is that there is a good game on TV that you can't miss.  :icon_mrgreen: WHY? Because you UNDERSTAND how the matrix propaganda machine goes all out to RUIN anyone that smells a rat. :evil7:  You don't want to be labelled a conspiracy nut at work because you might lose your job so you just do what you can do on the side to prepare (buy a piece of land, learn permaculture, etc.). (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae51.gif)

You say you would never go that route.   :emthdown: That's cowardly. :emthdown:  It may not QUITE be zombie behavior but, since said person isn't doing anything to counter the matrix, they are part of the problem, not part of the solution.  :emthdown: :P

Well my friend, there are over 450 people in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

I studied your zombie research. Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 
 


So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets. :emthdown:

The incredible IRONY of this SHIT is that the predatory capitalists on Wall Street and Madison Avenue are the MAIN DRIVERS of the matrix, NOT the federal government!  Yeah, they have turned the governemnt into their lakey but I DESPISE the flipping of the order of EVIL here to label the GOVERNMENT (a mere TOOL that can be use for good or bad) as the bad guy when the predatory capitalists are BY DEFINITION, the bad guys. And the predatory bastards are the ones pushing the ZOMBIE label 24/7.

Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimentional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.

LD, you are where you are because of certain experiences that WOKE YOU UP. If you hadn't had them you would be quietly living on 50 acres or so right now, making a $100,000 a year or more, and prepping your ass off for when the shit hits the fan while telling all your acquaintances everything is hunky jake (to avoid workplace ostracism or job loss for the sake of your family) and bragging about how your team won last night...(http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae51.gif)

Sure, you wouldn't be acting CRAZY LIKE A FOX.

But THIS FITS:

Quote

Want word do you use for a clever person?

Answer:

In the US, we often call a clever person a fox. We also say that person is "dumb like a fox" Meaning the person pretends to be unintelligent to serve his own purpose while he is really intelligent. The word clever has a connotation that goes beyond smart or intelligent. It encompasses a person with both brains and the savvy or ability to use it in a way that is quick,
witty and endearing.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Want_word_do_you_use_for_a_clever_person (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Want_word_do_you_use_for_a_clever_person)

Sports have been used forever to change the subject by people who do not want to ventilate their personal views. It's bullshit. My old man was an expert at it. Sure he knew the stats and all that shit but it was a COVER to avoid serious discussion with people he did not trust.

People will ACTUALLY pretend stupidity as well. Yeah, I know some of them aren't acting  :icon_mrgreen:  but you would be flabbergasted to fine out how many out there GET IT but aren't making a show out of their understanding.

I share with you the rejection and ostracism. It hurts.  :emthdown:  :( Some of us are lousy actors or we get hit upside the head so many times that we see how the system really works and want to blame all the cogs in the matrix instead of the clever propagandists at the top herding the masses with, not just STICKS, my friend, BUT ONE HELL OF A LOT OF CARROTS.

Every time someone wants to exit the treadmill, the loss of all those carrots is waved before them. It works. For those that make a big show of leaving, the stick is used. :whip:

In a way, you are lucky you picked up on the matrix so young.

But your anger at the cogs in the matrix is, IMHO, misplaced. Your promise to ostracise them just as they ostracized you is based on anger at rejection, not the recognition of the ocean of propaganda they live in.

As for the cogs in the matrix, there but for the grace of God go I; and YOU TOO.  8)

Do you think I'm wrong? Tell me, why do you think last year MORE PEOPLE in the USA died of SUICIDE than car accidents? Air Bags or people being trashed by the MATRIX?  :icon_scratch:

They ARE waking up. It just isn't getting televised. Some of them are checking out because they can't handle it. Others are here. Still others are willfully blind and then there is that last group that is quietly prepping their ass off while keeping a low profile (The "dumb like a Fox"  ;) crowd  :icon_mrgreen:).

Now for my little anecdote from West Point. As a cadet, I HATED to get to class formations early because the fucking upper classmen would badger us with quizzes and memory exercise shit to see if they could catch us off base. They would check our clothing and if a quarter inch string showed anywhere on our uniform, slap us with some demerits.

We were told that the Blue Book (West Point Corps of Cadets Regulations and Formation times) was THE authority on formation times. Well, I showed up at formation after they had been marched off. Here's how it went: ::)

UPPER CLASSMAN: Mister why are you late?

ME: Sir, may I make a statement? (You had only two choices, say "NO EXCUSE, SIR" or ask to make a statement.)
 
UPPER CLASSMAN: yes.

ME: Sir, I am not late.

UPPER CLASSMAN: Your class formation left. You are late. Why are you late? IRP! (immediate reply please  :LolLolLolLol: )

ME: Sir, may I make a statement?
 
UPPER CLASSMAN: yes.

ME: Sir, I am not late.

UPPER CLASSMAN: You'll have to write HELL report (a type of explanation along with a number of hours marching punishment tours). POST! (that means go!)

ME: Yes sir!

FIVE MINUTES LATER at Engineering Graphics class.

PROFESSOR: Cadet, why are you late?

ME: Sir, I am not late. I formed up according to the Blue Book time schedule

PROFESSOR: Let me give you some advice. Never piss into the wind. You will lose. From now on, join your classmates when they start to form up even if it's early, alright?

ME: Yes sir.

In human society behavioral dynamics there is a phenomenum the lawyers call, VOX POPULI, VOX DEI. The direct translation is, "The voice of the people is the voice of God".

Of course that isn't rue and lawyers probably don't think so either. The point is that a jury of your PEERS can be WRONG but they can SHAFT you if you don't watch what you do and when you do it. 

Our PEERS in the matrix cog are WRONG. It is our job to survive the matrix. But it is also our job not give those in the matrix the finger.

It's bad for our health.  :icon_mrgreen:  Rather, we should work to, with a smile on our face of course, let them know the SCORE without hyperbole and with all our powers of persuasion.

They say everything will work out. You say, sure it will, IF this, that and the other happens.

Ask them if they see evidence of this, that and the other happening or the EXACT reverse.  :icon_scratch:

Then if they remind you half time is over, you just smile and say, IT SURE IS. Let me know when you REALLY want to play ball.  ;)


To me, the way this thing will shake out is a divergence between Homo sapiens and homo SAP.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: Surly1 on June 11, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
For my money, sitting here in the cheap seats, that was one remarkable post. Well crafted, nuanced, striking where necessary. A tip o' the Crown of Thorns to you, sir.

Quote
Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 

So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets.

The incredible IRONY of this SHIT is that the predatory capitalists on Wall Street and Madison Avenue are the MAIN DRIVERS of the matrix, NOT the federal government!  Yeah, they have turned the governemnt into their lakey but I DESPISE the flipping of the order of EVIL here to label the GOVERNMENT (a mere TOOL that can be use for good or bad) as the bad guy when the predatory capitalists are BY DEFINITION, the bad guys. And the predatory bastards are the ones pushing the ZOMBIE label 24/7.

Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimentional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.

This goes right to the heart of the "zombie" meme and the reason for the vigor with which the media/entertainmen t complex pushes it. ("World War Z" coming soon to a multiplex near you!)

I could never quite put my finger on what I found so troubling about that.

You nailed it..

As Eliot said of Pound in his dedication of The Waste Land, "il miglior fabbro."
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: RE on June 11, 2013, 03:34:55 AM
Petroleum Corn Sugared Zombies (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/11/petroleum-corn-sugared-zombies/) from LD now UP on the Diner Blog.

I am going to split this thread off so it appears where more can read it.  Maybe not till tomorrow though since I am past bedtime.

RE
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 11, 2013, 06:51:56 AM
Agelbert, you make a pretty persuasive argument my friend.  I'll counter it when I get back from micro yet again.  I'll know about that test today I hope.  Think I passed it...but that will be barely if I did..which is really my goal.  I've got a 4.0 and this is my last prereq...I'm a shoe in according to the director of the RN program.  It's sorta like senioritis is what I have right now.  I'd just rather be playin' with Zen or Tribann or GM  :icon_mrgreen: then studying. 

At any rate, I'll counter you today but for now it's off to lab.   :emthup:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: RE on June 11, 2013, 12:44:47 PM
Petroleum Corn Sugared Zombies (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/11/petroleum-corn-sugared-zombies/) from LD now UP on the Diner Blog.

I am going to split this thread off so it appears where more can read it.  Maybe not till tomorrow though since I am past bedtime.

RE

New thread, but no time now to do it.  I'm going to call it "Zombie Rehab".  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

You gonna start a new thread or put it in the Epiphany Now thread?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 11, 2013, 03:47:50 PM
The Great Zombie Rehab Debate between LD and AB now moved to the Doomsteading Board from Behind the Curtain.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 11, 2013, 08:10:18 PM
Quote
For my money, sitting here in the cheap seats, that was one remarkable post. Well crafted, nuanced, striking where necessary. A tip o' the Crown of Thorns to you, sir.



Quote

Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 

So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets.

The incredible IRONY of this SHIT is that the predatory capitalists on Wall Street and Madison Avenue are the MAIN DRIVERS of the matrix, NOT the federal government!  Yeah, they have turned the governemnt into their lakey but I DESPISE the flipping of the order of EVIL here to label the GOVERNMENT (a mere TOOL that can be use for good or bad) as the bad guy when the predatory capitalists are BY DEFINITION, the bad guys. And the predatory bastards are the ones pushing the ZOMBIE label 24/7.

Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimentional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.



This goes right to the heart of the "zombie" meme and the reason for the vigor with which the media/entertainmen t complex pushes it. ("World War Z" coming soon to a multiplex near you!)

I could never quite put my finger on what I found so troubling about that.

You nailed it..

As Eliot said of Pound in his dedication of The Waste Land, "il miglior fabbro."

Thank you, sir.  :icon_sunny:

Here's the follow up rant  :icon_mrgreen::

The matrix is, ABOVE ALL, a well oiled propaganda machine that SPECIALIZES in taking concepts that appeal to the average MAM (military aged male) and using said concepts or memes to neutralize any threat those MAMs could present to the matrix. This is achieved by flipping the concepts on their heads in EXPERT, CLEVER and APPEALING Orwellian fashion.

This accomplishes the vital divide and conquer function of the matrix by making sure that the MAMs TARGET fellow MAMs for their perceived woes and not the matrix controllers (the PARASITES at the top).  :evil4: :evil6:

That's silly, you say. They'd never get away with that. Everybody would see through it. You scoff!  :icon_scratch:

Let's take the term "ALPHA MALE" as a prime example of successful MINDFUCK MATRIX ORWELLIAN PROPAGANDA.

The REASON you think of a CEO, Hedge Fund Billionaire or Wall Street Broker/Banker when that term is brought up is because of a successful Orwellian propaganda campaign. The human version of the ALPHA MALE is a "job creator" (he is the reverse) and provides leadership for his corporation (no he doesn't - he strips it bare and moves on). :P

Based on the above two falsehoods, the premise proceeds logically to RHIP. The ALPHA MALE DESERVES more than the rest of us because we OWE him for all the WORK he does. He doesn't have to concern himself with the losers out there without jobs or in need of welfare because he does SO MUCH to keep the PRODUCTIVITY of the economy at a high level. He is VICTIMIZED by a governmental ZOMBIE tax structure where a bunch of UNPRODUCTIVE people work  who don't deserve their "cushy" jobs. We need LESS GOVERNMENT so we will all have MORE FREEDOM from the matrix! :evil4: :evil6:

Implied in all the above propaganda you will find these corollaries:

1) People who chose lower pay for job security are not ALPHA MALES.

2) People who have bleeding heart concepts about feeding zombies and other useless eaters are not ALPHA MALES.

3) People who don't cherish FREEDOM are not ALPHA MALES.

4) People who are not ALPHA MALES are losers.   

5) ALPHA MALES need not concern themselves with losers.

6) ALPHA MALE behavior is worthy of praise.

7) ALPHA MALES, like the wolves in nature, preserve the strength of the Homo sapiens pack

8 )Zombies are PARASITES on society. Unlike the ALPHA MALES who are jungle survivors in the true Darwinian sense, these PARASITES feed a fascist police state matrix by not questioning authority or bucking the system for the good of predatory capitalism (I mean human society, of course  :evil4:).

9) PARASITES (Zombies) are evolutionary dead ends. The sooner they die off, the better. 

10) If you are getting shafted by the government or a corporation, it's your own fault because you are a PARASITE ZOMBIE that doesn't deserve FREEDOM and RESPECT and INDEPENDENT, CONSCIENSE FREE BEHAVIOR like the ALPHA MALE.

NOTE: All the above propaganda corollaries apply to so-called ALPHA FEMALES too. :evil4:


Now lets take a look at ALPHA MALES AND FEMALES in an ACTUAL WOLF PACK:

Quote
A typical wolf pack will contain a number of individuals that specialize in certain areas, such as pup rearing and hunting.

The specialist hunters are usually female; this is because they are roughly 25 per cent smaller than the males, meaning that they are much faster and agile than the bulkier males.

There are often a couple of wolves within the pack that are capable of sprinting like a greyhound, reaching speeds fast enough to either catch or force their prey into an ambush.

Usually, the hunter will not be the alpha or breeding female, as the risk of injury for a hunter is high, and the alpha is far too valuable to the survival of the pack. She will, however, keep a close eye on proceedings from the sidelines and ensure that the lower ranked wolves remain disciplined during the hunt. This is often a very difficult, so she will often initiate practice sessions before a hunt to drill the discipline home.

Nowadays, the term alpha when used in wolf circles is a misnomer, as it often implies dominance. The alpha wolves in a pack do not dominate other individuals in any sort of coercive sense. Instead, they simply enjoy the greatest amount of social freedom in the pack, by never having to submit to anyone and of course enjoying the privilege of being the only two individuals permitted to breed.

http://jkenny.hubpages.com/hub/Wolves-Hunting-Behaviour (http://jkenny.hubpages.com/hub/Wolves-Hunting-Behaviour)

Quote
Occasionally a wolf will opt to hunt alone, but is usually far more cautious and rarely hunts anything bigger than a rabbit. Usually they will catch creatures such as rodents and birds, and occasionally will compete with bears for fish during the salmon season.

http://jkenny.hubpages.com/hub/Wolves-Hunting-Behaviour (http://jkenny.hubpages.com/hub/Wolves-Hunting-Behaviour)

Quote
The pack leader isn't necessarily the alpha male [source: Busch]. The alpha female takes the reins in certain groups since wolf rankings are based on strength and the ability to win fights, not gender.

http://animal.discovery.com/mammals/wolf-pack-mentality.htm (http://animal.discovery.com/mammals/wolf-pack-mentality.htm)

Quote
Life span
In the wild wolves generally live until they are 6- 8 yeas old. In captivity, they can live until they are 16 because they are better feed and do not suffer the hardship that wolves in the wild do, [such as death by parasites or injuries.

http://www.timberwolfps.org/wolf-facts.html (http://www.timberwolfps.org/wolf-facts.html)

Are you getting COGNITIVE DISSONACE YET? Why not? ???

(http://sixpacktech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Tick.jpg)
Does this LOOK LIKE AN ALPHA MALE TO YOU?


In NATURE, the only ACTUAL equivalent organism that lives in a wolf pack that can compare with a MATRIX MOVER AND SHAKER from Wall Street is a TICK (i.e. a wolf PARASITE).


Why? Because the wolf earns his keep 24/7. He ALWAYS works for the good of the pack. The ALPHA MALE or FEMALE have a higher probability of injury from fights than the rest of them in return for breeding freedom.

The right to breed does not translate into the "right" to make thousands of times the pay of the average worker and avoid paying taxes. It's a clever distortion of the extremely limited freedom that the ALPHA wolves have along with being subjected EQUALLY to PARASITES and even more than the others to FIGHT and possibly HUNTING injuries.

If enough PARASITES (like TICKS) cover a dog, they can kill it. They anesthetize the wound where they suck blood so the dog doesn't realize its danger. When the dog dies, the TICKS just move on to find another host. I'm sure wolves get the same treatment.

Gee, those TICKS don't seem to love freedom, independent thought or bucking the system all that much, DO THEY? Those TICKS act a LOT like CEOs and other blood suckers on Wall Street, DON'T THEY? And ""productivity" is a cruel joke for a TICK, is it not?

In fact, the human version of the "wolf" that is weak and dying from lost blood is not helped at all by the Wall Street TICKS. They call these weak "wolves" evolutionary dead ends and useless eaters.

When they can't get another drop of blood out of them, they might even call them ZOMBIES!

(http://www.everythingwolf.com/sitewide/imagelib/newletter3/chitobunny.jpg)
Does this look like a ZOMBIE to you ? ???

These ZOMBIES are  good for nothing but to be discarded in the trash, well deserving of their deaths for not being "stronger" and "competitive" like we PRODUCTIVE, JOB CREATING, FREEDOM LOVING, GOVERNMENT HATING TICKS. :whip: DEATH to the PARASITES!  ;) (and let's always remember to not look in the mirror  :evil4:). 


(http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/spring2008.18.jpg)
Is this a PARASITE or a VICTIM? ???

So, we end up with a MATRIX powered by Wall Street PARASITES  who label the PRODUCTIVE members of the pack (which includes the actual APHA MALES and FEMALES and all the other human versions of the wolf pack) that keep the economy moving despite the constant encroaching hindrance of the Wall Street PARASITES, as "PARASITIC ZOMBIES".

The authors of the police state matrix FOMENT DISDAIN and DERISION for the EMPLOYED or RETIRED members of the economy (people who BENEFITED the economy by VOLUNTARILY CHOOSING, at the start of their careers, to make less money in return for more security), among the main victims of free enterprise predatory capitalist, TICK blood sucking, many millions of which are now unemployed, struggling and on food stamps.

The authors of the police state matrix say, "We CAN"T have those unemployed or struggling to survive thinking that we Wall Street PARASITES caused their woes.

It's time to grab an opportunity out of this crisis. It's time for MORE divide and conquer. WHO has security? WHO can join with those struggling to in a united front to create "difficulties" for Wall Street and our beloved MATRIX? Why, it's GOVERNMENT and RETIRED WORKERS!  :evil4:

We PARASITES haven't been able to destroy job security in government jobs so let's just DEMONIZE the FUCK out of them by calling them ZOMBIES and PARASITES. Also, let's MAKE SURE to give RETIREES a 24/7 "guilt trip" for "milking the government" and call their pensions  by that nice divide and conquer, envy producing term of "ENTITLEMENTS" instead of EARNED BENEFITS THAT ARE OWED TO THEM. That way we can keep our blood sucking going while the "wolf pack" (the suckers) fight amongst themselves." :evil6: :evil7:

They say, "We Wall Street PARASITIC TICKS will laugh all the way to the bank and make sure that anyone that figures out our GIANT MATRIX CON is labeled a conspiracy theorist, anti-American, anti-Free Enterprise, anti-FREEDOM, socialist, pinko commie, ZOMBIE defender, coward, etc. :evil4: :evil6:

As long as anyone with a secure job as an employee is demonized as a zombie and or a parasite, the real parasites are accelerating us towards OUR and THEIR self destruction.  :(  :emthdown:

Blaming the victim is not only inaccurate, it serves the purposes of the MATRIX by keeping the heat of the REAL PARASITES. Do your part. Blame the guilty, not the innocent.
Title: Zombie Rehab: The Black Armband
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 01:16:29 AM
OK, I am going to drop in here with a few thoughts.  Sadly, I simply do not have time to go point by point in either LDs or ABs posting to say what I think is right or wrong about it.

The main thing here is I think 2 ideas are being conflated here, the "Zombie" idea and the "Parasite" or "Leechfuck" idea.

Zombies are not RESPONSIBLE for the problems we face, they are VICTIMS, just as those of us who are Non-Zombies are Victims.  I don't BLAME Zombies, I feel sorry for them.

Nevertheless, some folks are so far gone, despite the fact it is not their fault really, THEY CANNOT BE SAVED.  Where are you going to make your effort, with those who still have a CHANCE, or those who are so Brainwashed by the Hologram nothing you say will ever even make a DENT in what they think?

It is Triage, the World is a MASH Unit now, and there are a very few people with a Green Armband on who still might be saved, but MOST people already wear the Black Armband of DEATH.  Expending effort and resources to save these people is a waste of time and resources, and even beyond that, in the Full Collapse Scenario these folks present a DANGER to you.  When they can't get hold of Goobermint Cheese, they won't go looking for Wild Edible Plants, they'll go shopping in your Garden first, then go Shopping in your store of Preps, then they'll EAT YOU if you are not ready for that eventuality with enough NUMBERS to turn them away and Protect & Defend yourself and your Loved Ones.

We all write here on the Diner, and this material is for the most part available to anyone in an industrialized culture who owns an Iphone to read.  The opportunity is out there to educate yourself, YOU all found the Diner, now didn't you?  I in turn found the Peak Oil Message Board, found Antal Fekete, found Carroll Quigley, found Gibbon's Rise & Fall of the Roman Empire....man it is all OUT there to read if you look for it a bit.  I am going to continue to waste my time with people who will not READ, will not LISTEN, will not THINK?  I am sorry, no I will not, they are too far gone, they wear the Black Armband now.  I triage them off.  I hope they die a relatively painless death.  I expend my energy to SAVE AS MANY AS I CAN.  I CANNOT SAVE THEM ALL.

My emotions, my hopes and dreams for the survival of Homo Sapiens do not reside with the Zombies out there, or the Parasites and Leechfucks that run Corporate Amerika either.  They are dead people.  I SEE DEAD PEOPLE.

(http://blsciblogs.baruch.cuny.edu/eng3940h/files/2010/04/i-see-dead-people.jpg)

I harbor my resources, I don't invest in the Black Armbands.  I invest in DINERS.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 12, 2013, 02:55:23 AM
PLEASE tell me you are going to adapt these two posts into a blog post.

Supurb analysys, and parentheetically sheds light on why people pay Frank Luntz big $$$ to test language and "frame" issues.

Get to writing, AG.

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 03:06:43 AM
PLEASE tell me you are going to adapt these two posts into a blog post.

Supurb analysys, and parentheetically sheds light on why people pay Frank Luntz big $$$ to test language and "frame" issues.

Get to writing, AG.

 ;D ;D

Which 2?  There's a bevy of entertaining and informative posting here in the thread thus far.

I split it off so that the totality of the ideas would be consolidated, because it is a very good thread concept overall.  So yea, my plan is/was to fashion it into a Blog Post, but since YOU mentioned the idea, and YOU are an ADMIN, now this is YOUR job.  LOL.

Consider this a lesson on when it is a good idea to keep your mouth shut.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 12, 2013, 03:22:04 AM
PLEASE tell me you are going to adapt these two posts into a blog post.

Supurb analysys, and parentheetically sheds light on why people pay Frank Luntz big $$$ to test language and "frame" issues.

Get to writing, AG.

 ;D ;D

Which 2?  There's a bevy of entertaining and informative posting here in the thread thus far.

I split it off so that the totality of the ideas would be consolidated, because it is a very good thread concept overall.  So yea, my plan is/was to fashion it into a Blog Post, but since YOU mentioned the idea, and YOU are an ADMIN, now this is YOUR job.  LOL.

Consider this a lesson on when it is a good idea to keep your mouth shut.  LOL.

RE

I think not.

Am happy to excerpt, find images and Dinerize, of course, but AG is far too cogent a writer for me to put words in his mouth for attribution. Best done by him, IMO.

Let's hear from him.

This whole "zombie" thread started by LD has occasioned much useful discussion.

Quote
The world is full of two kinds of people:
Those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 03:34:40 AM

I think not.

Am happy to excerpt, find images and Dinerize, of course, but AG is far too cogent a writer for me to put words in his mouth for attribution. Best done by him, IMO.


Hello.  Have you ever read one of my Consolidation Posts of Diner Threads?  I don't "put words in ANYBODY'S Mouth", I just Copy/Paste out of a thread the most well conceived posts that talk to the topic.  I leave out the stupid dickering posts like this one. LOL.  It's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!  LOL.

Anyhow, I will do this one tomorrow night, and Demonstrate the Technique to you GRASSHOPPER. SNATCH THE PEBBLE FROM MY HAND!

(http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/pebble-500x298.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 04:21:57 AM
Quote
The world is full of two kinds of people:
Those who finish what they start...
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 04:41:54 AM
Quote
The world is full of two kinds of people:
Those who finish what they start...

...AND THOSE WHO START WHAT THEY FINISH?''

How about those who Say What They Believe, and those who Believe What They Say?

Not to mention those who Walk the Walk; those who Talk the Walk,; others who Walk the Talk; some who Talk the Talk and others who are Deaf, Dumb and BLIND?

Then there are those who Reap what they Sow, and others who never planted Jack Shit in their whole lives.

I think there are more than two kinds of people.  ::)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 06:55:09 AM
once again I find myself without the time to comment much today.  Gaggle of exams back to back due to it being an abbreviated semester.  Made an 83 on the one I thought I'd fail BTW.

I didn't get a chance to read all of Agelberts last long post, just the intro bit before he got into talking about nature, which I would love to break down.  In fact I've seen several points where I disagree with Agelbert. 

The main point is that zombies aren't a victim of society, they are society.  They're no more a victim than I or anybody else living in this clusterfuck, but their apathy and laziness is largely responsible for this clusterfuck.  That's the point, holding people responsible.  The people have the real power, we have the numbers that compose hordes.  Nobody has the power to stop a big enough horde. 

Anyways...off to micro yet again...maybe I'll skip today :icon_mrgreen:

if you see another post anytime soon from me that's what happened. 

I'd like a chance to respond to Agelbert before the blog goes up to btw...
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 08:16:02 AM

I read your article and I think it is a thought binary. The negative part of the binary defines a zombie (evolutionary failure) while the positive part defines an evolutionary success.

The evolutionary success or failure argument is weakened by the FACT that you allow for the possibility that zombies can morph into non-zombies. So, you aren't REALLY talking about evolution, as in positive or negative mutations, but ADAPTATION inside the Homo SAP gene pool.

I thought a gene mutation is an adaptation to the gene pool?  Either way I think you're splitting hairs.  Besides I'm speaking more in terms of this is something that's being set up.  I mean those who survive the bottleneck will probably not be zombies...although they could be.  Take the bad ass, drug flingin', gun wieldin' biker gang type...or the gang bangin' type...or prisoners released from prison en mass due to the government subsidies that probably keep them in prison drying up.  Lot's of "alpha males" to fight and some will survive the bottleneck...so maybe that theory of mine doesn't have much merit...although it was mostly just something uttered sort of poetically.  I like the way it sounds at least.  Not something I'm prepared to spend time defending really...so I'll just let you have that one ;D

Quote
The ability to adapt to the imposition of the matrix, by recognizing that it is a system that must fail due to it's thermodynamically impossible goal of infinite growth in a finite biosphere, is limited by some skill, awareness, intelligence or all of them together in sufficent amounts, right?

If you can read then you can figure it out.  Shit, if you can look around you can figure it out.  Hell I can smell it myself :laugh:  It just require you be willing to pull your head out of your ass.

Quote
Somewhere along the road of life, you became aware of the matrix.  :o :P :( With the zeal of a convert, you set out to warn your fellow humans. :stop: :argue:

No, by the time I got around to learning about PO I had largely given up on society giving two shits about the truth.  My zeal was spent trying to convince people that 9/11 was an inside job.  Mike Ruppert handled that one expertly with Crossing the Rubicon.  It's a tome to be sure, but he ties 9/11 and peak oil to each other...if you haven't read it you should, but that's another topic for debate.  My point is that after I realized people weren't willing to objectively look at the facts due to bias and brain programming, and...well...just laziness, I then realized trying to convince them was worse than pissin' on an electric fence.  I mean unless you're a masochist...in which case piss away I guess. 

Quote
as Maslow's hierarchy attests, lack of peer group acceptance is painful.  :( It is, moreover, a powerful force in behavioral modification. :whip: That is, it is a TOOL of the matrix propaganda machine, is it not?  :icon_scratch:  ;)

or just human psychology.

Quote
IOW it may be quite possible that you DID convince your fellows of the insanity and danger of the matrix and, privately fearing ostracism, they pretended NOT to understand the gravity of your warning ("Hey, let's watch the big game - this subject is depressing!"   ;)).

Yes, but I think that's probably the exception to the rule and not the rule. 

Quote
Your reaction, a road I have been down many many times, is anger at their stupidity, willfull ignorance OR cowardice. :angry5:

I'm long past anger brother.  Believe me.  I don't lose any sleep over zombies...I promise. 

Quote
Do you notice I used the word "OR" just now? After all, YOU get it. If THEY don't get it and they aren't mentally retarded, then they are cowards, right?

I mean they can be all kind of things.  They could be just lazy, or to preoccupied with football, or buying and trading toys online!  I mean there are an infinite number of reasons they would decide to cram their head back in the sand.   :icon_scratch:

I think JMG is correct with his advocacy for the use of ternaries.  You see they break those little binaries you are so fond of.   :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Now this gets complicated because I am going to make the case that you aren't holding them responsible for their behavior; you are holding them responsible for YOUR present and future behavior. 8)

Only person I hold responsible for my behavior is me.  That goes for every other "adult" on planet Earth. 

Quote
Let's rewind your life to the Navy. You get trained in radar electronics instead of nukes. You never see combat and you never go AWOL after 117 days at sea. You do your full hitch and land a nice job in IBM after leaving the service.

Somebody comes up to you that had a hard time in the war and tells you about the matrix. You promise to look into it   :icon_study:  because you respect that guy's opnion and, after some research  :o,  you are able to see the propaganda pattern out there labeling everyone that questions the "approved" historical and present status quo as a conspiracy nut.

You study the numbers and you realize that, not only is there a matrix going on keeping people numb, but the system cannot help but implode. :o 

You start saving money and prepping but you don't tell the dude that alerted you. What you tell him is that there is a good game on TV that you can't miss.  :icon_mrgreen: WHY? Because you UNDERSTAND how the matrix propaganda machine goes all out to RUIN anyone that smells a rat. :evil7:  You don't want to be labelled a conspiracy nut at work because you might lose your job so you just do what you can do on the side to prepare (buy a piece of land, learn permaculture, etc.).

You say you would never go that route.   :emthdown: That's cowardly. :emthdown:  It may not QUITE be zombie behavior but, since said person isn't doing anything to counter the matrix, they are part of the problem, not part of the solution.  :emthdown: :P


So you're saying had I been "successful" after quitting the navy I'd have been more cowardly?  When I got out I could have went to any nuclear power plant...probably in the world after completing NNPTC, Prototype, and then makin' B-Nuke quals on the Vinson, CVN-70, and got a job starting in the six figures.  The USN nuclear pipe line is known throughout the world as some of the best nuke training there is.  I chose not to be "successful" because I realized that that success was a dead end road and I didn't want to go down it.  I had to pay for my soul first, after spending six months in the Arabian Sea droppin' bombs on innocent nomads, red cross centers, hospitals, and Mosques.  Money was the least of my concern after liberating myself from the navy. 

Quote
Well my friend, there are over 450 people in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

Not at all.  If you're on the Diner, and you come back to it for at least one more click, than you ain't a Zombie...well I suppose you could be a troll, or bored, or government/corporate agents, or bots, or...shit...here we go again :laugh:

Quote
I studied your zombie research. Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

I mean this with all due respect Sir...Fuck politics...don't get me started on politics Agelbert.  My cussometer pegs out at about 9 cuss words for every 10 towards the end of the politics debate.  It's a puppet show...end of story.  Another form of football for a different, more egg head shaped form of idiot.  I tried politics when I campaigned for Ron Paul in 2007.  Just more zombie food IMO :P

Quote
If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 
 

I hear you, I could say the same about almost causing a reactor scram at sea...during war...or a life depending on whether or not you can get this petroleum tube down this 300 pound overweight, Congestive Heart Failure victim's trachea before his face turns even more purple.

Quote
So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

I get it, but those ass holes don't get to define my language for me.  That's called New Speak.  Orwell wrote all about that in 1984.  There's a New Speak Dictionary doncha know :laugh:  As my wiki research demonstrated, the word did not start as propaganda.  Just witchcraft in a culture and time different from our own.  And those Zombies had very real cohorts.  Those thrown from a train after being brutally beaten for refusal to be a slave I imagine. 

We had the same problem with the word Vixen.  You see it as a derogatory word, and I see it as a beautiful one.  I see it as the beauty incarnate in my wife, mother to my children, and lover...as that beauty emanating from each of her pores.  That's Vixen like.  But I make no secret about the fact that I turn into a fox at night  :laugh:

Quote
It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets. :emthdown:

all the more reason to co-opted the co-opted word back from the co-opters in the 1984 copters man O0. 
Quote
The incredible IRONY of this SHIT is that the predatory capitalists on Wall Street and Madison Avenue are the MAIN DRIVERS of the matrix, NOT the federal government!  Yeah, they have turned the governemnt into their lakey but I DESPISE the flipping of the order of EVIL here to label the GOVERNMENT (a mere TOOL that can be use for good or bad) as the bad guy when the predatory capitalists are BY DEFINITION, the bad guys. And the predatory bastards are the ones pushing the ZOMBIE label 24/7.

The main drivers of the Matrix are the lost souls that allow it to continue to exist.  I'm in line with those lost souls...part of me at least.  The part that has to feed his children no matter what becomes of this world.  I have two be two people.  One...concerned with collapse issues 100% of the time, and Two, playin' this stupid fuckin' game of "can I have some credentials for food" and a position at the Ministry of Health please :'(

Quote
Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimentional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.

We are all victims of that evil fuckin' machine Agelbert...even those at the highest levels...the 1% or whatever the fuck you wanna call'em. 

Quote
LD, you are where you are because of certain experiences that WOKE YOU UP. If you hadn't had them you would be quietly living on 50 acres or so right now, making a $100,000 a year or more, and prepping your ass off for when the shit hits the fan while telling all your acquaintances everything is hunky jake (to avoid workplace ostracism or job loss for the sake of your family) and bragging about how your team won last night...(http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae51.gif)

That sounds familiar to you Agelbert.  Am I sensing some regret here perhaps?  The experience that "WOKE ME UP" was when I woke up one day from a mid day siesta...I was 18 at the time...yawning real big, getting up from bed to go eat some cereal, and I get a weird feeling I need to turn around.  So I do so, and what I saw altered my consciousness like the bacteriophage's lytic conversion does to a bacterial cell ;D  What I saw that did that was myself, lying in bed, sound asleep.  When I returned a short while later (and short here is up for interpretation seeing as how your real time  double's time is quite different from your normal interpretation of time) I did not return as the same person. 

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Sure, you wouldn't be acting CRAZY LIKE A FOX.

yes I would be, I are a fox homey...I can't help myself.   :laugh:







So this point by point stuff is getting tiresome Agelbert.  Don't get me wrong...I enjoy it...but it takes time.  Time that is much better spent in conversation in real time, face to face, as people. 

My biggest issue with you is that you're allowing one entity, a political, libertarian one...to be precise, to define what a Zombie is and is not.  Zombies are real, my man, and they ain't welcome at the foxstead.  They will be removed from the premises with all means at our disposal.  I don't have time for knuckleheaded knuckleheads.  I mean I'm a knucklehead from time to time myself, but my guidance system is not.  It's one thing to play around and have a good time, and quit another to just never have a moral direction, or compass...or True North as I think Joseph Campell put it once. 

I'm in it to win it Agelbert.  I'm going to do everything I can to ensure my son's get to spread their genes into the world...hopefully one that's not ravaged by man any longer...but whatever the case may be...my boys will know how to survive in it.  A lot of that battle is done on a mental landscape.  I'm giving them many different lenses to see the world with...a toolkit of lenses. 

But when it comes to Zombies...well I'm the Zombie Whisperer after all  :roll2:

And BTW, this message was brought to you by a 33 year old practicing the long lost art of...hookey.  Why go to college if you're not going to skip class every now and then :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 12, 2013, 09:32:13 AM

Quote
So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets.

I personally can't tell the difference between the "zombie" who works for gov or the "zombie" who works for corp. In my experience, the average minion is equally unquestioning of TPTB, more often than not making excuses for gross institutional insanity, so as not to have to question their own service to grossly insane, demonic institution, public or private. What is the difference between big bank charging me $800 in fees on $80 of overdrafts, or city gov charging two weeks pay because I dared to try to honor an ancient white pine, to save it from the fire, some zombie neighbor cut down because he couldn't grow grass underneath it? In fact, I'd say the capitalist fucks and their gov counterparts have created a nice little racketeering enterprise, by which city inspector Harold writes me up for whatever, enters it into the bureaucratic system, by which it comes to private contractor. Private contractor gets paid, Harold keeps his job (and maybe drives me out of my house and buys it and destroys everything I've done here?), City gets it's cut to pay it's pensioners with, etc, AS IF I AM SOME KIND OF ATM. Which Harold inspector fuck I saw parked outside my house this morning. Here we go again...

Which "zombies" public and private btw are a secret power of the State, often heard of late defending the State, regurgitating something to the effect of "I have nothing to hide." I.E. the State can crush anyone as long as it isn't ME.

Excuse my grumpiness. All that "zombie" consuming has the climate-changed jet stream parked over Minnesota. Saw the sun for the first time in about 2 months yesterday, though it was  :icon_sunny: :rain: :icon_sunny: :rain: :icon_sunny: :rain:, often at the same time all day. Today on my day off: non stop rain.  :(

 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 09:52:11 AM
As long as anyone with a secure job as an employee is demonized as a zombie and or a parasite, the real parasites are accelerating us towards OUR and THEIR self destruction.  :(  :emthdown:

Our and THEIR self destruction may be baked into the cake at this point.  I don't think it is entirely, but I think billions dieing in the coming years is likely.  Which is why the foxstead is so important.  It's true, there are many "eco-villages" out there, which are arguably close enough to the same thing as the foxstead, so why not just go join an existing one? 

I've looked into existing ones...one really, the permaculture scene in Asheville NC mostly.  There are a lot of good people there, who are awake to the doom we spend our time talking about.  They are at least doing something about these problems.  I think the reason I'm into the foxstead is because the process is extremely meticulous this way.  We are creating it every day at the Diner actually. 

Point is, nothing is going to change about the direction those ticks are taking our planet.  We have to deal with the facts that are all ramifications of their destruction.  Yet they are just people to are they not?  I mean if we're all equal and shit.  If egalitarianism is true than it's true for all...even the 1%. 

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Blaming the victim is not only inaccurate, it serves the purposes of the MATRIX by keeping the heat of the REAL PARASITES. Do your part. Blame the guilty, not the innocent.

I no longer give a shit who's to blame Agelbert.  It's a fucked up mess at this point.  Beyond all repair even.  Or to go extreme Navy acronym for you, it's SNAFU, TARFU, AND FUBAR all at the same time.  Government has been lobotomized and neutered, Corporations are the Wax of Icarus's wings as well as the hubris in his head, and the masses are mostly pharmaceutically altered on fukitol and hopium with their hopes in technotriumphalism.  What's it matter who's to blame. 

IMO the 1% are zombies too, or worse than zombies even, they're the Witchdoctors makin' all of those zombies in the first place...for purposes of slavery.  Freedom is Slavery after all.  The point is to wake up and stop being a zombie.  Start dealing with the reality of our world.  Take the power back. 

I'll let Rage say it:

Quote
"Take The Power Back"

Bring that shit in! Uggh!

Yeah, the movement's in motion with mass militant poetry
Now check this out...uggh!

In the right light, study becomes insight
But the system that dissed us
Teaches us to read and right

So called facts are fraud
They want us to allege and pledge
And bow down to their God
Lost the culture, the culture lost
Spun our minds and through time
Ignorance has taken over
Yo, we gotta take the power back!
Bam! Here's the plan
Motherfuck Uncle Sam
Step back, I know who I am
Raise up your ear, I'll drop the style and clear
It's the beats and the lyrics they fear
The rage is relentless
We need a movement with a quickness
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the power back

Yeah, we gotta take the power back
Come on, come on!
We gotta take the power back

The present curriculum
I put my fist in 'em
Eurocentric every last one of 'em
See right through the red, white and blue disguise
With lecture I puncture the structure of lies
Installed in our minds and attempting
To hold us back
We've got to take it back
Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears
One-sided stories for years and years and years
I'm inferior? Who's inferior?
Yeah, we need to check the interior
Of the system that cares about only one culture
And that is why
We gotta take the power back

Yeah, we gotta take the power back
Come on, come on!
We gotta take the power back

Hey yo check, we're gonna have to break it, break it,
break it down
Awww shit!

Uggh!

And like this...uggh!

Come on, yeah! Bring it back the other way!

The teacher stands in front of the class
But the lesson plan he can't recall
The student's eyes don't perceive the lies
Bouning off every fucking wall
His composure is well kept
I guess he fears playing the fool
The complacent students sit and listen to some of that
Bullshit that he learned in school

Europe ain't my rope to swing on
Can't learn a thing from it
Yet we hang from it
Gotta get it, gotta get it together then
Like the motherfuckin' weathermen
To expose and close the doors on those who try
To strangle and mangle the truth
'Cause the circle of hatred continues unless we react
We gotta take the power back

Yeah, we gotta take the power back
Come on, come on!
We gotta take the power back

No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies
No more lies

Uggh!

Yeah!

Take it back y'all
Take it back, a-take it back
A-take it back y'all, come on!
Take it back y'all
Take it back, a-take it back
A-take it back y'all, come on!

Uggh!

Yeah!



http://www.youtube.com/v/APmUWC8S1_M




Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 10:17:39 AM
I studied your zombie research. Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

I mean this with all due respect Sir...Fuck politics...don't get me started on politics Agelbert.  My cussometer pegs out at about 9 cuss words for every 10 towards the end of the politics debate.  It's a puppet show...end of story.  Another form of football for a different, more egg head shaped form of idiot.  I tried politics when I campaigned for Ron Paul in 2007.  Just more zombie food IMO :P

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So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

I get it, but those ass holes don't get to define my language for me.  That's called New Speak.  Orwell wrote all about that in 1984.  There's a New Speak Dictionary doncha know :laugh:  As my wiki research demonstrated, the word did not start as propaganda.  Just witchcraft in a culture and time different from our own.  And those Zombies had very real cohorts.  Those thrown from a train after being brutally beaten for refusal to be a slave I imagine. 

We had the same problem with the word Vixen.  You see it as a derogatory word, and I see it as a beautiful one.  I see it as the beauty incarnate in my wife, mother to my children, and lover...as that beauty emanating from each of her pores.  That's Vixen like.  But I make no secret about the fact that I turn into a fox at night  :laugh:

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It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets. :emthdown:

all the more reason to co-opted the co-opted word back from the co-opters in the 1984 copters man O0. 
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The incredible IRONY of this SHIT is that the predatory capitalists on Wall Street and Madison Avenue are the MAIN DRIVERS of the matrix, NOT the federal government!  Yeah, they have turned the governemnt into their lakey but I DESPISE the flipping of the order of EVIL here to label the GOVERNMENT (a mere TOOL that can be use for good or bad) as the bad guy when the predatory capitalists are BY DEFINITION, the bad guys. And the predatory bastards are the ones pushing the ZOMBIE label 24/7.
Quote
Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimentional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.

We are all victims of that evil fuckin' machine Agelbert...even those at the highest levels...the 1% or whatever the fuck you wanna call'em. 

My biggest issue with you is that you're allowing one entity, a political, libertarian one...to be precise, to define what a Zombie is and is not.

Personally I'm sick of this NewSpeak by people calling themselves Libertarians.  The proper term for the people who call people with government jobs 'zombies' is Corporatists.  Maybe I was deluded to begin with, but my understanding was that Libertarianism was an advocate for individual freedoms, something which I strongly believe in.  Now they seem to have been taken over by corporate advocates.  I'm sorry, as far as I'm concerned Big Business = Big Government = Mass Media.  They're all in it together, and they're all against us, and if you support any of them, you're a useful idiot to them.
Title: LD said
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 10:39:45 AM
Quote
I no longer give a shit who's to blame Agelbert.

You keep sayin' that.  But you, like WHD, care A LOT who is to blame!  :icon_mrgreen:

How do I know your secret? Because you plan to survive this clusterfuck and have PLANS, like RE does, to make SURE it doesn't happen again.  ;)

You, and all that venture into the Foxstead, SUN project or whatever are keen observers of the status quo and have taken GREAT PAINS, as is obvious by all your analytical prose, to understand HOW this happened and, more importantly, WHY.

You have tracked down the historical path of perversion to its greed filled, giant ego, hubris tainted CORE.

You KNOW that it all goes back to a predator that doesn't understand biosphere boundaries and rules. You KNOW this because YOU, WHD, RE and many others here CARE!

Ya ain't foolin' me, friends!  :icon_mrgreen:



(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d57/Vibiana/Defiance.jpg)
Doomstead Diner mouse that CARES!  :icon_mrgreen:

The FINE PRINT not seen on the above overtly QUIXOTIC graphic is a deep and narrow hidy hole just behind our SURVIVOR MOUSE...  ;)  :icon_mrgreen: :laughing7:
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: Surly1 on June 12, 2013, 10:49:45 AM
Personally I'm sick of this NewSpeak by people calling themselves Libertarians.  The proper term for the people who call people with government jobs 'zombies' is Corporatists.  Maybe I was deluded to begin with, but my understanding was that Libertarianism was an advocate for individual freedoms, something which I strongly believe in.  Now they seem to have been taken over by corporate advocates.  I'm sorry, as far as I'm concerned Big Business = Big Government = Mass Media.  They're all in it together, and they're all against us, and if you support any of them, you're a useful idiot to them.

Indeed. Review the bidding. One of the ironies in the NSA flap is that Snowden is one of 500,000 private employees hired by the government to do their snooping. 500,000 self-made John Galts out there, living large off the government tit.

The truth of the matter is as WHD laid it out, below:
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I personally can't tell the difference between the "zombie" who works for gov or the "zombie" who works for corp. In my experience, the average minion is equally unquestioning of TPTB, more often than not making excuses for gross institutional insanity, so as not to have to question their own service to grossly insane, demonic institution, public or private. What is the difference between big bank charging me $800 in fees on $80 of overdrafts, or city gov charging two weeks pay because I dared to try to honor an ancient white pine, to save it from the fire, some zombie neighbor cut down because he couldn't grow grass underneath it? In fact, I'd say the capitalist fucks and their gov counterparts have created a nice little racketeering enterprise, by which city inspector Harold writes me up for whatever, enters it into the bureaucratic system, by which it comes to private contractor. Private contractor gets paid, Harold keeps his job (and maybe drives me out of my house and buys it and destroys everything I've done here?), City gets it's cut to pay it's pensioners with, etc, AS IF I AM SOME KIND OF ATM. Which Harold inspector fuck I saw parked outside my house this morning. Here we go again... Which "zombies" public and private btw are a secret power of the State, often heard of late defending the State, regurgitating something to the effect of "I have nothing to hide." I.E. the State can crush anyone as long as it isn't ME.

Seventy years ago, Smedley Butler wrote "War Is A Racket." Now everything is a racket. Even that Holy of Holies, "Free Enterprise," is a fixed cartel and a racket. If we are employed, we are, in CH Smith's memorable phrase, "Tax donkeys and debt serfs."

Fact of the matter is you can't turn around without bumping into a zombie.

The division is meaningless. It takes a while, but eyes eventually open, and today's zombie is tomorrow's prepping doomer.
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 11:56:00 AM


Fact of the matter is you can't turn around without bumping into a zombie.

The division is meaningless. It takes a while, but eyes eventually open, and today's zombie is tomorrow's prepping doomer.

That's correct...if they get a chance to prep.  Cause until that point they are a zombie.  The first thing a non-zombie does, when they wake up from zombie status, is to start figurin' out WTF they are going to do about it.  That's the difference between us.  A zombie temporarily woken up by whatever means, who buries his/her head back in the sand, is nothing more than an almost rehabed zombie...almost doesn't cut it IMO. 

It's a disease with a cure.  Zombyitis is...just gotta resist cramin' your head back up your ass and deal with the reality that is collapse.  Or don't.  Choice is yours, but if you don't, you will be held responsible for your lack of action.  Regardless of who's to blame.  Nobodies to blame really. We're all people right?  All of us equal according to the tenets of egalitarianism?  Which means we're all responsible for ourselves and what we do and don't do.  If we medicate on fukitol than it's our choice. 

We're all adults whether we're adults or not (which is the problem with my dad's generation...they never grew up and faced the music).  They thought just working hard at whatever job to support the family was all that was required.  Challenging the prevailing acquisitive culture generated by the hologram and dubbed The American Dream was never on their radar...at least not my parents. 

Again, I'm not pointing fingers...just telling the truth as I have experienced it.  So maybe I shouldn't say my parents generation and just say my parents.  Lest I get some Doomer Boomer's feathers all in a fluff.   :laugh: 
Title: Nope
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 12:01:35 PM
Quote

Quote

LD, you are where you are because of certain experiences that WOKE YOU UP. If you hadn't had them you would be quietly living on 50 acres or so right now, making a $100,000 a year or more, and prepping your ass off for when the shit hits the fan while telling all your acquaintances everything is hunky jake (to avoid workplace ostracism or job loss for the sake of your family) and bragging about how your team won last night...



That sounds familiar to you Agelbert.  Am I sensing some regret here perhaps?  The experience that "WOKE ME UP" was when I woke up one day from a mid day siesta...I was 18 at the time...yawning real big, getting up from bed to go eat some cereal, and I get a weird feeling I need to turn around.  So I do so, and what I saw altered my consciousness like the bacteriophage's lytic conversion does to a bacterial cell ;D  What I saw that did that was myself, lying in bed, sound asleep.  When I returned a short while later (and short here is up for interpretation seeing as how your real time  double's time is quite different from your normal interpretation of time) I did not return as the same person. 

Uh, no LD. You had your head firmly up your propagandized patriotic ass when you joined the NAVY.  Your spiritual experience may have STARTED at 18 but that didn't keep you from being SUCKERED by the MATRIX.

As for me, you are damned right I don't like being poor. But my understanding of the MATRIX is not political or simple cause and effect environmental consequences of predatory capitalism. MY journey is a spiritual one that DEFINES the NEXT LIFE as MORE IMPORTANT than THIS ONE.

Once I got in that groove, all the trouble started for me. I learned that, not only did most people not give three shits about the next life, but they were doing exactly the wrong things even if they cared about THIS one.  :icon_scratch:

It just isn't logical, I said to myself. So, I began studying the whys and wherefores of this mess. That's how I discovered the MATRIX and how it works. I found writings of brave Americans (some who died young for some reason...) that identified HOW IT WORKS in our "society". You know the drill.

I take seriously my God's instructions to be a good steward of this garden, regardless of my belief that the next life is far better. That is my common ground with most Doomstead Diners. We want a better planet so we write about what is wrong and what can be done about it. GOOD!

I understand your position perfectly. It's analogous to someone in Germany watching Hitler rise to power and KNOWING that his fine upstanding and friendly neighbors would eventually become a threat to his existence because they would be cowardly lakeys for a fascist government. You label them a priori zombies.

Your claim that we can counter the mainstream pushed definition, now firmly lodged in the brains of most people, is quixotic. Propaganda works because it takes a NEGATIVE TERM and twists it into a POSITIVE ONE of VICE VERSA. Taking a NEGATIVE TERM like ZOMBIE and REDEFINING the negative COHORT will fail because you are still on the same side of the binary. The trick is to make something flip from one side of a binary to the other (good to bad or bad to good) so you can sucker a bunch of twits into working against their own best interests in order for you, the propagandist, to reap more profits and/or power.


Zombie labeling is a CLEAR bifurcation from the environmental catastrophe we are faced with. It is a separate issue.  It's fortress mentality that narrows your choices of future co-survivors helping to make a better world.

But it's more purist, less messy. You like it for reasons of moral clarity.

I'm being a pain in the ass to you because I'm getting into a lot of, from your point of view, useless nuance.   :icon_mrgreen:

You say you are WAY PAST ANGER.

Would you approve of RE putting a poll up to see whether the Doomstead Diners believe you are an angry young man or not?  I'm not saying you don't have valid reasons for being angry; I'm saying pretending you aren't perpetually pissed is fakin' it!

But I'll admit I'm wrong if the poll of our peers says you are NOT angry about the MATRIX driven lakeys that surround you. 
 

Surly,
Thanks again.  :icon_mrgreen:

With all due respect, your command of the king's English is far better than my own. RE says "go for it" with the cut and past". I'll go you one better. I suggest you take the views of LD and myself, compress them to core themes and sprinkle them with personal anecdotes and opinions from yourself , RE and others. The fact that YOU are doing it lends objectivity to the discourse. I approve ANYTHING you come up with based on my reading of your devotion to objectivity that I have observed here since day one.  :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :icon_sunny:

However, I'll keep up the discourse on this thread as long as LD doesn't send a KARATE KICK by e-mail.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: BC2K on June 12, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
Doomer's/Prepper's first rule of thumb:

Save the last bullet for yourself.

(Some day there will be no more coffee)
  :coffee:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
Quote
Zombies will most likely be shot on sight and burned in large piles.

WTF?  Okay, I can maybe see wasting precious ammo on zombies if you don't know whether they are armed, but wasting good fuel on them when they are dead?  I don't think so!  Do you have any idea how much wood or methane it takes to burn a human body?

I think the relevant question after TSHTF is whether the zombie layer goes above or below the wood layer in the hugelkulture beds...  :exp-evil:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 01:28:38 PM
Quote
Zombies will most likely be shot on sight and burned in large piles.

WTF?  Okay, I can maybe see wasting precious ammo on zombies if you don't know whether they are armed, but wasting good fuel on them when they are dead?  I don't think so!  Do you have any idea how much wood or methane it takes to burn a human body?

I think the relevant question after TSHTF is whether the zombie layer goes above or below the wood layer in the hugelkulture beds...  :exp-evil:

well I won't argue with that logic :emthup:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 01:34:50 PM
Agelbert...WTF man?  I'm not going to be happy about the most destructive machine ever devised by man.  I don't know what that would make me...but not something I'm going to be.  Maybe I have an angry sounding outlook, but I'm not an angry person.  I'm a gentle one whom holds and sleeps with a baby on a daily basis, and loves a toddler and wife. 

I'm not loosing any sleep on account of the Matrix.  Definitely not on account of Zombies either.  Far as gettin' suckered goes...yeah...I got suckered...I'd never deny that.  But I woke up and more than made up for it IMO.  It wasn't an easy endeavor gettin' myself kicked out of the navy...I had a few failed attempts before going UA. 

I think this whole discussion between you and I just comes down to the fact that you don't like the term Zombie and I think it does a great job at defining a real condition in the human mass mind.  I'm no agent of the Matrix...just another ass hole with an opinion when it comes down to it.   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: For LD, WHD, Karpatok, Monsta, RE & OTHER DINERS concerned with...read on
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 03:56:41 PM
Quote
I think this whole discussion between you and I just comes down to the fact that you don't like the term Zombie and I think it does a great job at defining a real condition in the human mass mind.  I'm no agent of the Matrix...just another ass hole with an opinion when it comes down to it.   :icon_mrgreen:

NOW WE"RE COOKIN' WITH GAS!  :icon_mrgreen:

Likes, dislikes and opinions are an integral part of the discourse, OF COURSE.

You came up with the term "zombie" to define a certain segment of Homo SAP. I countered that the MATRIX CASTRATED your efforts because THEY command the propaganda machine, not you. THAT IS A FACT, not an opinion. EVERY SINGLE TIME you utter the word "ZOMBIE", 70 to 80% of the readers unconsciously attach ALL the pejorative connotations to people like ME who are retired, have pace makers, orthostatic hypotension so they can' t bend over or squat without getting faint (can't garden worth a SHIT) and, as if THAT wasn't enough are pushing 70 with BPH (benign prostatic hyperplasia - we have to PISS OFTEN  :icon_mrgreen:). I REALLY don't like having a "useless eater" sign/target on my back. Can you blame me?

I'm sure you don't blame me. I'm just letting you know that words have some very negative repercussions sometimes that you didn't really mean. You aren't MARRIED to the use of the term you coined unless you suffer from endowment bias (i.e. it's your idea so you will defend it to the death). You don't want to be ruled by opinion, but by objectivity.

Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one and most of them stink. Our job is to extract the germ of truth from our opinions through objective discussion, is it not?

I read all kinds of jokes here from many diners about hanging, drawing and quartering, burning, shooting, etc. the parasitic human robots that are like a pack of voracious caterpillars on a planetary mulberry tree.  I used to hear the same kinds of jokes in the FAA by some jokers that though Germany should have "finished the job". While the "Jews are the problem" meme was going among some assholes on my crew, the term "Fire up the ovens" was greeted by chuckles (I was new so I mostly pretended not to hear it).

After I became a journeyman radar controller (about 2.5 years after being hired), one fellow who had been a Georgia State Trooper before the FAA told the "hilarious joke" that the "reason blacks had chickens on their farms is so they could teach their kids how to walk". Man did THAT PISS ME OFF (and I'm not even black!).

But I said nothing for a couple of weeks. On another occasion, after a crew briefing when more of his stupid, red neck, cracker hate speak "jesting" remarks issued from his bigoted mouth, I waited for everyone else to leave from the briefing room to the control room and told him, You know, one of these days somebody is going to hit you so hard, you are going to be shitting teeth for two weeks. But don't worry, it won't be me. :icon_mrgreen: He kept his jokes to his pals after that.

I was told several times by supervisors that they were just joking and I should have a thicker skin and not be such a bleeding heart (And I was a Republican then!).

I say FUCK THAT! You guys are playing with FIRE here "joking" about offing the "parasitic robots" as if they were Jews in Nazi Germany or Blacks in the deep south for most of US history.

Germans slept with their babies, loved their wives and listened to classical music when they weren't murdering Jews, you know.

My point here for ALL concerned  is, denigration, demonization and coarse jokes about the "bad people" are ALWAYS used by the MATRIX to divide and conquer.  ALWAYS!

I am not advocating an egalitarian utopia. I understand that's NOT the way evolution has worked on this planet. Asymmetrical power relationships have the most evolutionary staying power. That's a fact, not an opinion.

I'll give one last example of lack of objectivity RIGHT HERE at the Doomstead Diner.
 
Several diners have taken me to the woodshed for REFUSING to back their population culling fantasies. I say that the problem will "solve itself" by more deaths from pollution caused disease and greater knowledge among survivors of our responsibility to maintain harmony with the biosphere.

I am flogged and castigated for failing to see we MUST lower the population. RE brings out his guillotines, Monsta protests and even Karpatok flailed me. I refuse to be part of a culling. All this talk about parasitic robots and overpopulation leads to GENOCIDE!

I am scoffed at. No, no, no the "carrying capacity" must not be exceeded. It's all for the great goddess gaia, you know...

I say, OH YEAH!? You mean like the Spartans leaving the babies who were deformed, lacked a father that could support him or were a reject in some other way on a hill to die?

WHD says, YES! THAT'S THE natural way. LIVE WITH IT! No one has the right to overpopulate gaia...:whip:

The other day we celebrated the FACT that LD and GM had duplicated themselves. They now have TWO treasures from God according to agelbert's quaint views.

GM made a comment about the future size of her family. I say, if they want a "full quiver" (Christian expression for large family), then it's a great idea.  :emthup: They are young, strong, intelligent, well educated, know the score and love the land.

BUT, NOT ONE WORD CAME FROM THE ADVOCATES OF A LOWER POPULATION ADVISING GM that she had actually PASSED her quota of ONE by having TWO and GAIA wouldn't like it if she had three or more. No, all I heard were the sounds of silence.

Which one of you population culling advocates will put Zen or Tribann on the side of a hill if a tree crushes LD's pelvis and knocks him on the head so hard he is a blithering idiot for the rest of his days? WHICH ONE!!!?

NOT ME! I'll do whatever I can (even if I have to kill you) to STOP you from putting LD, Zen or Tribann ON THE SIDE OF A HILL EVEN IF I DIE TRYING TO STOP YOU BECAUSE IT'S JUST fucking wrong!

PEOPLE! Stop playing with FIRE!

The "PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTANCE' from killing "zombie vermin" to putting "people unable to FEND for themselves" to DEATH is EXTREMELY SHORT! Just study NAZI Germany if you don't agree.

Education and the golden rule for ALL LIVING THINGS is the answer. Selective genocide is a road that will BITE YOU IN THE ASS like it did NAZI Germany. Jokes about killing parasitic robots in various ways are dehumanizing. We want a more humane society, not a less humane one.

It's a lot harder that way. It may not work because we humans just love to kill each other too much to learn to respect ourselves, let alone the biosphere.

But anything else is just MORE FAILED tribal bigotry that got us where we are today. If we make that choice, we ARE an evolutionary dead end.

THINK. The children you save may be your own.



Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 04:01:34 PM

It's a disease with a cure.  Zombyitis is...just gotta resist cramin' your head back up your ass and deal with the reality that is collapse.  Or don't.  Choice is yours, but if you don't, you will be held responsible for your lack of action.  Regardless of who's to blame.  Nobodies to blame really. We're all people right?  All of us equal according to the tenets of egalitarianism?  Which means we're all responsible for ourselves and what we do and don't do. 

Crimes Against Humanity are evident, and there are Perps here and Victims.  The Perps are the Illuminati Pigmen running Monsanto and DOW Chemical, the Zombies are the Victims who have been brainwashed since birth and completely lack the ability to overcome this anymore.  They wear the Black Armband of Death, along with the Pigmen.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 12, 2013, 04:41:08 PM
Agelbert makes a good point, imho. Have you given much thought as to WHY the whole Zombie phenomenon in movies and television has gotten so incredibly popular?

I mean, I'm not sure I even know the answer to that, but I think it's a good question. Why Zombies? Why now?

There's more to it than just entertainment. It's a cultural archetype. Zombies are a symbol. A symbol of TEOTWAWKI. A symbol of death by epidemic.

A zombie is someone you can kill without remorse, because, let's face it, they are walking dead anyway. Isn't that convenient, to have an enemy who is nothing like you and me? Just a shuffling corpse. Blowing it's head off is an act of mercy...right?

I think when you start calling people zombies, you're on a slippery slope of the worst kind. I don't travel in circles with many Wall Street Pigmen, but I have met a few...I don't like 'em much, but I don't think hanging them from lamp posts is the way to go. There are several broad categories of folks out there that I despise, more or less, but at their worst, they are people...even neo-cons, even welfare queens. Even Christian evangelicals. LOL.



Title: Re: For LD, WHD, Karpatok, Monsta, RE & OTHER DINERS concerned with...read on
Post by: Ashvin on June 12, 2013, 04:52:04 PM
I'll give one last example of lack of objectivity RIGHT HERE at the Doomstead Diner.
 
Several diners have taken me to the woodshed for REFUSING to back their population culling fantasies. I say that the problem will "solve itself" by more deaths from pollution caused disease and greater knowledge among survivors of our responsibility to maintain harmony with the biosphere.

I am flogged and castigated for failing to see we MUST lower the population. RE brings out his guillotines, Monsta protests and even Karpatok flailed me. I refuse to be part of a culling. All this talk about parasitic robots and overpopulation leads to GENOCIDE!

I am scoffed at. No, no, no the "carrying capacity" must not be exceeded. It's all for the great goddess gaia, you know...

I say, OH YEAH!? You mean like the Spartans leaving the babies who were deformed, lacked a father that could support him or were a reject in some other way on a hill to die?

WHD says, YES! THAT'S THE natural way. LIVE WITH IT! No one has the right to overpopulate gaia...:whip:

The other day we celebrated the FACT that LD and GM had duplicated themselves. They now have TWO treasures from God according to agelbert's quaint views.

GM made a comment about the future size of her family. I say, if they want a "full quiver" (Christian expression for large family), then it's a great idea.  :emthup: They are young, strong, intelligent, well educated, know the score and love the land.

BUT, NOT ONE WORD CAME FROM THE ADVOCATES OF A LOWER POPULATION ADVISING GM that she had actually PASSED her quota of ONE by having TWO and GAIA wouldn't like it if she had three or more. No, all I heard were the sounds of silence.

Which one of you population culling advocates will put Zen or Tribann on the side of a hill if a tree crushes LD's pelvis and knocks him on the head so hard he is a blithering idiot for the rest of his days? WHICH ONE!!!?

NOT ME! I'll do whatever I can (even if I have to kill you) to STOP you from putting LD, Zen or Tribann ON THE SIDE OF A HILL EVEN IF I DIE TRYING TO STOP YOU BECAUSE IT'S JUST fucking wrong!

PEOPLE! Stop playing with FIRE!

The "PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTANCE' from killing "zombie vermin" to putting "people unable to FEND for themselves" to DEATH is EXTREMELY SHORT! Just study NAZI Germany if you don't agree.

Education and the golden rule for ALL LIVING THINGS is the answer. Selective genocide is a road that will BITE YOU IN THE ASS like it did NAZI Germany. Jokes about killing parasitic robots in various ways are dehumanizing. We want a more humane society, not a less humane one.

It's a lot harder that way. It may not work because we humans just love to kill each other too much to learn to respect ourselves, let alone the biosphere.

But anything else is just MORE FAILED tribal bigotry that got us where we are today. If we make that choice, we ARE an evolutionary dead end.

THINK. The children you save may be your own.

Wow, you cut right to the core of all this shit with that one brother!

My attempts to make this same point have been much too subtle...

BUT, someone should probably throw in some intellectual ambivalence here. At the core it will all depend on what you believe is TRUE, because we can all imagine a reality in which "human population culling" could be justified in certain circumstances, yes... even putting the burdensome baby on the the hill to die...

but do we believe that's the reality we actually exist in?

It's not only a matter of recognizing the practical genocidal consequences of our suggestions or "jokes", but also recognizing the inability of those suggestions to cohere with the Truth.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Thanks Eddie!  :emthup:

I've been on the internet since 1996. Around 1998 I started seeing, in the newspapers and on the internet LOTS of adds about "JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND GET A FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION!". I smelled a rat called WAR. I thought the Kosovo thing would blow up to some European war but I also remember the web site "World Net Daily" screaming about the Ayatollahs in Iran and how we had to fight them...

I told my wife they are cooking up a war. I told everyone that would listen that the "free college" was a hook to beef up the size of the "volunteer US military" with cannon fodder. We all know what happened. 

People just don't GET that the stuff that is OUT there WORKS the mindfuck for the MATRIX quite well. To dismiss the silly repetition as nonsensical gibberish is laziness. It's there for a reason and the more people figure out that reason, the less the propaganda works.

Remember when Bush was in Iraq in secret and they announced all kinds of details of the Turkey dinner that Condolezza Rice was invited to at the RANCH just beforehand? I do. I went back and read how the Washington Post and the New York Times MADE SURE people read this inane bit of ""innocent" Thanksgiving food prattle. I have gone as far as to say the very top dogs in the MATRIX are media moguls. But generalizations are no good. Whenever something sounds like a non sequitur, they are confusing you to get your mind off something else. Just like the big flap about a "leak" now and Obama's "endangered term" made me ask, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? They are trying to hide the fact that the empire is LOSING in SYRIA by making as much noise as possible in an attempt to blackmail Obama to start the war. I checked the news within ONE day of this "leak" shit. Low and behold, Assad is wiping the death squad strongholds out. Panic time for the MATRIX. Bring out another "scandal".

If more people did the critical thinking leg work to see how the game is played, less people would be taken in by it.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 06:02:37 PM
Thanks Ashvin!

Yes, I know that population thing is a hot potato. Surly will no doubt smile at my "spiking the ball" AGAIN.  :icon_mrgreen:

But, as you said, these hard subjects cut to the core of our belief systems and we should NOT shy away from discussing them.

NOW, when things aren't that hard YET, is the time to hash this out. Disparate and dissonant value systems will destroy a community quicker than bad weather of an outside threat. A house divided will not hold up under the coming challenges. If people are to decide it's "OKAY" to kill humans and even eat them in certain situations, then the RULES can't just be applied to the OTHER. 

We aren't preparing for weekend camping here. Bravado about shooting first and asking questions later is fine in Western films but rarely works well in actual human, day to day, hard scrabble existence.

Now I'll remain silent for a while and see what the population culling crowd has to add.

I welcome any more thoughts of yours on this and the "zombie" issue as well.  :emthup:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 12, 2013, 06:22:53 PM
Just to be clear here, I have never personally advocated that we must manufacture a die-off to avoid the overshoot problem. I merely suggested that a die-off is a inevitable outcome especially if you consider that most of the problems facing humanity are actively DENIED and will continue to be denied until it is impossible to do so. It seems doubtful that any organised action will be taken until the crisis happens and when that moment does arrive the options for mitigation will be very limited. It will be about damage control and not damage prevention. I see a die-off as a natural event and not one that should be forced. I would not advocate for the mass killing of people.

The only thing I would say is that once the whole die-off process is complete then the population of future societies must be controlled in some manner lest the same overshoot problems happen again. We either have a situation were population is maintained at a equilibrium over a long period of time or accept that populations will go through boom and bust periods if we prefer that nature makes those difficult population decisions. I tend to believe it is better that man makes those decisions rather than leaving it to nature to decide because in the latter case I feel the pain is likely to be distributed in a less equitable manner. Population control can be achieved by only allowing certain members of society to reproduce and those reproductive rights can be gained by passing a test to see if a person exhibits the correct moral traits. To make this process fair and not turn this into another policy of eugenics all members of society must be subject to the same test and no member can be exempt or given extra allowances due to status or other privileges. It must be a level playing field. In many ways this process could be seen as a coming of age test.
Title: Monsta said
Post by: agelbert on June 12, 2013, 06:33:04 PM
Quote
To make this process fair and not turn this into another policy of eugenics all members of society must be subject to the same test and no member can be exempt or given extra allowances due to status or other privileges. It must be a level playing field. In many ways this process could be seen as a coming of age test.
:emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 06:35:42 PM
That's a lot to think about Agelbert.  But these matters deserve as much power of thought as possible I suppose. 

I'm not trying to kill anybody...or advocate for the killing of anybody for any reason...aside from possibly raping babies...I think we put those sick fucks down...but I realize the slippery slope that corporal punishment is.  Still...I had a patient that was under a year old whom had been raped by a grown man...so I've seen the result of that type of depravity...technically I treated it...and I never want to see it again.

But what are you advocating humanity to do when faced with these horrible situations?  Do you give up and die because you can't defend your tribe?  Is that what you are saying?  Cause I'm not going to lay down and die...fuck that.

Triage is a real event that I've participated in a few times.  It sucks.  I've never had more than probably 8 patients at once.  The worst one was a wreck with five mexicans in a little rice mobile.  The guy that was the worst off was lying on our cot in the back of the truck with the medic attempting to RSI (rapid sequence intubation...where we chemically take your ability to breath from your body to do it for you) him because blood was filling his oral cavity coming from his split open scalp.  A piece of the frame of the car had basically scalped him if I remember correctly....there was a million things going on at once due to the four other critical patients that were still around and about the road.  Just my partner and I...I'm a rookie EMT Basic at the time....that shit was hard to deal with homey.

Point is...I have made those decisions from a medical standpoint.  I only bring this up because I know what this looks like from experience. 

So I ask you again, do you lay down and die because you can't deal?  Or do you do whatever it takes to survive?  Cause that's what the near future may come to for most of us? 

Or not...everything is great...go back to sleep America...

I've got to think some more on the topics presented here.  You have challenged my brain sir :emthup:  I will not hold onto a description...a word...such as Zombie...just because I happen to like it.  If it really is that destructive to use it...then I won't.  But I'm not convinced that this is true. 

 :icon_scratch:

As far as the population culling thing...I'll definitely have to address that issue as a blog.  That's really the root of this debate at this point I think.  I sense religion is fixin' to become an issue on this thread.

Hello Ashvin :laugh:

Good to have you comment...so far

hell...maybe you'll surprise me :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
Quote
Population control can be achieved by only allowing certain members of society to reproduce and those reproductive rights can be gained by passing a test to see if a person exhibits the correct moral traits. To make this process fair and not turn this into another policy of eugenics all members of society must be subject to the same test and no member can be exempt or given extra allowances due to status or other privileges. It must be a level playing field. In many ways this process could be seen as a coming of age test.

Stark Raving Madness in my view. Will not even argue or discuss the point further.  :emthdown:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
I'm not trying to kill anybody...or advocate for the killing of anybody for any reason...aside from possibly raping babies...I think we put those sick fucks down...but I realize the slippery slope that corporal punishment is.

Capital Punishment is OK for Baby Rapists, but it's not OK for people running Monsanto killing Farmers by the Truckload in India AND and Starving their Families in the process AND providing everyone else with a poisoned food supply?  WTF?  Which crime is causing more Havoc here in the world, your local Baby Rapist or your International Conglomerate Baby Killer and Mass Poisoner? How about your TEPCO Executives at Fuk-U-shima?  How many Babies did they PENETRATE with radioactive poison here already?  This isn't serious non-consensual FUCKING?   You are OK with letting these Scumbags LIVE and just Offing Baby Rapists?

Not me.  These folks gotta go.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 07:25:54 PM
I'm not trying to kill anybody...or advocate for the killing of anybody for any reason...aside from possibly raping babies...I think we put those sick fucks down...but I realize the slippery slope that corporal punishment is.

Capital Punishment is OK for Baby Rapists, but it's not OK for people running Monsanto killing Farmers by the Truckload in India AND and Starving their Families in the process AND providing everyone else with a poisoned food supply?  WTF?  Which crime is causing more Havoc here in the world, your local Baby Rapist or your International Conglomerate Baby Killer and Mass Poisoner? How about your TEPCO Executives at Fuk-U-shima?  How many Babies did they PENETRATE with radioactive poison here already?  This isn't serious non-consensual FUCKING?   You are OK with letting these Scumbags LIVE and just Offing Baby Rapists?

Not me.  These folks gotta go.

RE

I wasn't trying to go down that road really. 

I used that example because it illustrates a real up close and personal type of evil...evil that requires damaged brains to do...at least IMO. 

The people perpetuating the evil you speak of are cowards.  Evil fuckers to be sure, but I wouldn't use them to debate capital punishment really.  Baby fuckers are much more visceral fuckers to hate. 

As far as capital punishment goes...I'm not sure that's an issue that matters too much.  I mean in the future, WTSHTF...those issues will just take care of themselves. 

Title: Zombie Rehab: Compilation Blog Article
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 07:26:09 PM
At this point the thread has gone so deep that doing it real Justice with a Compilation Post is nigh impossible, though I still will put a brief one together with some Highlights here so far.

I invite both LD and AB to write their own Blog Articles using the ideas thusfar presented in the thread as well as part of a Series for the Diner Blog.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab: Compilation Blog Article
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
At this point the thread has gone so deep that doing it real Justice with a Compilation Post is nigh impossible, though I still will put a brief one together with some Highlights here so far.

I invite both LD and AB to write their own Blog Articles using the ideas thusfar presented in the thread as well as part of a Series for the Diner Blog.

RE

I think that's a good idea...but I've pretty much already committed to at least one more blog...which that makes two that Agelbert has punched out of me (one so far). 

It's always good to be mentally challenged by someone :laugh:

Now that's a funny play on words :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 07:34:20 PM

I wasn't trying to go down that road really. 

I used that example because it illustrates a real up close and personal type of evil...evil that requires damaged brains to do...at least IMO. 

The people perpetuating the evil you speak of are cowards.  Evil fuckers to be sure, but I wouldn't use them to debate capital punishment really.  Baby fuckers are much more visceral fuckers to hate. 

As far as capital punishment goes...I'm not sure that's an issue that matters too much.  I mean in the future, WTSHTF...those issues will just take care of themselves.

IMHO, because it is "up close & personal", this form of Evil is a distraction preventing people from focusing on where the TRUE Evil is.  Misdirection of ANGER by Satan so the goals of Evil can be better achieved.

Far as letting these issues "take care of themselves", that is an invitation to Mayhem.  Without a Rule of Law to administer such Justice, you will end up with Mad Max.  I cover this stuff in Part 3 of my Podcast with Monsta.  I will leave it until then to further discuss this issue.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 12, 2013, 07:39:05 PM
Capital Punishment is OK for Baby Rapists, but it's not OK for people running Monsanto killing Farmers by the Truckload in India AND and Starving their Families in the process AND providing everyone else with a poisoned food supply?  WTF?  Which crime is causing more Havoc here in the world, your local Baby Rapist or your International Conglomerate Baby Killer and Mass Poisoner? How about your TEPCO Executives at Fuk-U-shima?  How many Babies did they PENETRATE with radioactive poison here already?  This isn't serious non-consensual FUCKING?   You are OK with letting these Scumbags LIVE and just Offing Baby Rapists?

What are your views about the economist who promotes austerity and bail-outs in places such a Greece? Those disastrous economic advice result in the death of thousands of Greeks through suicide. Unlike the cases you mentioned about Monsanto or TEPCO though you could argue that the economists have more plausible denial ability i.e. this could be a case of gross negligence and no willing crimes were committed. Do those people deserve capital punishment or is banishment enough for those folks?

I am sure when things get more desperate in the US there will be similar equivalents in the States where their advice will cause abject misery for many Americans who had little part in the crisis, at the same time those policies will enrich the already rich financial elite that largely instigated the financial crisis. Again though these economists while heavy promoters of free market they have, for the most part, not actively committed crimes or at the very least you could argue their intentions were not bad. They are simply deluded on a grand scale.

As for the word plays... Some times it is best to back out. You wouldn't want to dig that rabbit hole too deep. Even PhD hole diggers have their limits! :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 07:45:59 PM
I'm not trying to kill anybody...or advocate for the killing of anybody for any reason...aside from possibly raping babies...I think we put those sick fucks down...but I realize the slippery slope that corporal punishment is.

Capital Punishment is OK for Baby Rapists, but it's not OK for people running Monsanto killing Farmers by the Truckload in India AND and Starving their Families in the process AND providing everyone else with a poisoned food supply?  WTF?  Which crime is causing more Havoc here in the world, your local Baby Rapist or your International Conglomerate Baby Killer and Mass Poisoner? How about your TEPCO Executives at Fuk-U-shima?  How many Babies did they PENETRATE with radioactive poison here already?  This isn't serious non-consensual FUCKING?   You are OK with letting these Scumbags LIVE and just Offing Baby Rapists?

Not me.  These folks gotta go.

RE

RE, You make valid points for sure, but there are all sorts of problems with generalizing such evil. Who exactly is responsible at Monsanto, certainly not every employee.

My idea is to kill no one. Have adopted the idea of the famous author Truman Capote. He wrote a famous crime book about two killers who murdered a family called In Cold Blood. The two killers were as different as night and day, one was truly sorry, not too bright, coerced into the crime by the other.

Truman said of the one he felt was truly guilty, that there was something missing in his head that all normal sane people had. He could not pin point it but said he was devoid of feeling or conscience.

He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 07:53:22 PM


As for the word plays... Some times it is best to back out. You wouldn't want to dig that rabbit hole too deep. Even PhD hole diggers have their limits! :laugh:

No shit Monsta...that's one thing this thread has taught me. 

All the jacked up shit that I've seen and there are people out there that make those things look like child's play.

I think there is a rift that's happened here.  On the one hand we have a world that we are talking about that's potentially in the near future.  One that looks more like Mad Max in places at times.  How you act then, and how you act now, are two different things. 

On the other hand we have the world in which words live.  The one that we hypothesis about with ideas to be applied to the present world.  Your moral compass can easily be disturbed by starvation.  I'm sure there have been otherwise good and noble people in the history of man whom have resorted to cannibalism.  Something you could never imagine doing in your life...and yet there you are...eating another human to stay alive.  A fact that is fact where collapse of civilizations are concerned.     
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 07:54:42 PM
Population control can be achieved by only allowing certain members of society to reproduce and those reproductive rights can be gained by passing a test to see if a person exhibits the correct moral traits. To make this process fair and not turn this into another policy of eugenics all members of society must be subject to the same test and no member can be exempt or given extra allowances due to status or other privileges. It must be a level playing field. In many ways this process could be seen as a coming of age test.

WRONG!!!!

I'm sorry, a flat-bladed digging implement is a spade, and WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING IS EUGENICS!!!!

Not that that is of necessity wrong, but let's not mince words... anything which attempts to artificially enhance the gene pool is eugenics.

If you want an equitable policy, enforce sterilization after a person has had a second kid.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 07:57:47 PM
He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.

That is just another form of Capital Punishment, "Escape From New York" style.  If you sentence anyone to such a Walled Off prison with no Prison Guards, no food and no water other than what naturally falls in such a neighborhood (not much nowadays), they'll just Cannibalize each other.  It is the Sentencing that determines Life or Death.

I am fine with this one if it is the Consensus Means of Capital Punishment, we can set up "Eye in the Sky" cameras to watch the Action.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
Population control can be achieved by only allowing certain members of society to reproduce and those reproductive rights can be gained by passing a test to see if a person exhibits the correct moral traits. To make this process fair and not turn this into another policy of eugenics all members of society must be subject to the same test and no member can be exempt or given extra allowances due to status or other privileges. It must be a level playing field. In many ways this process could be seen as a coming of age test.

WRONG!!!!

I'm sorry, a flat-bladed digging implement is a spade, and WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING IS EUGENICS!!!!

Not that that is of necessity wrong, but let's not mince words... anything which attempts to artificially enhance the gene pool is eugenics.

If you want an equitable policy, enforce sterilization after a person has had a second kid.

fuck you John :D

My Vas Deferens is gonna be cut by no man...or woman for that matter. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 08:01:53 PM
Truman said of the one he felt was truly guilty, that there was something missing in his head that all normal sane people had. He could not pin point it but said he was devoid of feeling or conscience.

He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.

The problem with that idea is that not all of those kind become killers.  Some become international bankers and multinational CEOs.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 08:04:40 PM
He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.

That is just another form of Capital Punishment, "Escape From New York" style.  If you sentence anyone to such a Walled Off prison with no Prison Guards, no food and no water other than what naturally falls in such a neighborhood (not much nowadays), they'll just Cannibalize each other.  It is the Sentencing that determines Life or Death.

I am fine with this one if it is the Consensus Means of Capital Punishment, we can set up "Eye in the Sky" cameras to watch the Action.  :icon_sunny:

RE

Entertainment at it's finest ;D

lloyd takes on Jamie in a rock throwing fight over a rabbit for supper. Had a feeling you would see the merit in Mr Capote's plan, presented it just for your contemplation DM. Execution the fun and easy way GO calls it. Look Ma no blood on my hands.  ;D ;D :D :D :laugh: :exp-grin: :exp-grin: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
fuck you John :D

My Vas Deferens is gonna be cut by no man...or woman for that matter.
Okay, how about the Illuminati plan of sterilizing everyone through the drinking water and only those who can afford in vitro fertilization can reproduce?   ;)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
I'm sure there have been otherwise good and noble people in the history of man whom have resorted to cannibalism.  Something you could never imagine doing in your life...and yet there you are...eating another human to stay alive.  A fact that is fact where collapse of civilizations are concerned.   

I have no issues with Eating another Human, even without a BBQ first, long as said "Human" is Lloyd Blankfein or John Corzine.  In the words of Magua from Last of the Mohicans

Quote from: Magua
When the Grey Hair is dead, Magua will eat his heart. Before he dies, Magua will put his children under the knife, so the Grey Hair will know his seed is wiped out forever.

(http://www.pitch.com/binary/e90b/indiana_jones_heart_l.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 08:11:19 PM
Truman said of the one he felt was truly guilty, that there was something missing in his head that all normal sane people had. He could not pin point it but said he was devoid of feeling or conscience.

He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.

The problem with that idea is that not all of those kind become killers.  Some become international bankers and multinational CEOs.

Understood JD, my intent was to cast all who harm with no conscience or feelings into the same play pen.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 08:11:56 PM
well the master of stand up said it already...so I'll just let him say it again...from the grave
http://www.youtube.com/v/OmJ2snsLxWw

at 7:34 he even says the word Zombie
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 08:17:21 PM
That is just another form of Capital Punishment, "Escape From New York" style.  If you sentence anyone to such a Walled Off prison with no Prison Guards, no food and no water other than what naturally falls in such a neighborhood (not much nowadays), they'll just Cannibalize each other.  It is the Sentencing that determines Life or Death.

Actually, if you drop in food and water daily, you'll get a pretty much what I've heard Mexican prisons are like.  The guards are only on the outside to make sure you don't escape.  With the regular supplies, though, it doesn't quite turn to cannibalism. The prisoners end up setting up a hierarchy, with the strongest getting the supplies first.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 08:22:06 PM
Actually, if you drop in food and water daily, you'll get a pretty much what I've heard Mexican prisons are like.  The guards are only on the outside to make sure you don't escape.  With the regular supplies, though, it doesn't quite turn to cannibalism. The prisoners end up setting up a hierarchy, with the strongest getting the supplies first.

We already stipulate Water & Food resources will be Scarce relative to the Population at Large.  I am going to waste said reources making Air Drops into the Prison?  I don't think so.

Far as this methodology "absolving you from guilt" and "taking the Blood off your Hands", it doesn't.  The Blood is on your hands as soon as you Pass Judgement and sentence someone to such a Prison.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
I have no issues with Eating another Human, even without a BBQ first, long as said "Human" is Lloyd Blankfein or John Corzine.  In the words of Magua from Last of the Mohicans

Gross!! With all the garbage that humans put into their bodies!?!?  :13344-6:  Who'd want to eat that?  Give me something that ate some good fresh grass any day....
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 08:27:21 PM
I have no issues with Eating another Human, even without a BBQ first, long as said "Human" is Lloyd Blankfein or John Corzine.  In the words of Magua from Last of the Mohicans

Gross!! With all the garbage that humans put into their bodies!?!?  :13344-6:  Who'd want to eat that?  Give me something that ate some good fresh grass any day....

I've been eating Feed Lot Cattle Rib Eye Steaks my whole life, not to mention the crap I ate for 6 years at Truckstops.  I got a cast iron stomach.  I doubt a couple of Human Hearts would touch me.  :icon_mrgreen:

Anyhow, I'll take the Risk.  Call it Taking one for the Gipper.  LOL

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 12, 2013, 08:30:18 PM
We already stipulate Water & Food resources will be Scarce relative to the Population at Large.  I am going to waste said reources making Air Drops into the Prison?  I don't think so.

Far as this methodology "absolving you from guilt" and "taking the Blood off your Hands", it doesn't.  The Blood is on your hands as soon as you Pass Judgement and sentence someone to such a Prison.

RE

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make a suggestion, I was just pointing out that Mexican prisons were only one step removed from this.  There could easily come a point at which the supply drops stop and the situation does devolve that way.

As to absolution, far from it, in my case it has much more to do with making the punishment fit the crime.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 08:33:41 PM

As to absolution, far from it, in my case it has much more to do with making the punishment fit the crime.

I was referencing GO's post there, not yours.  Sorry, was not clear on this.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 08:42:43 PM
Quote
Far as this methodology "absolving you from guilt" and "taking the Blood off your Hands", it doesn't.  The Blood is on your hands as soon as you Pass Judgement and sentence someone to such a Prison.

RE

If you assume they all die. JD suggests factions will be formed, my view as well, some may turn others into slaves to provide for a select group.  You never can be sure what will come about. Don't forget you are adding new citizens regularly, and who can be sure what structure they take after trial and error and realization that survival of some is necessary. Maybe ones with big brains will be rewarded by those in power if they can produce what is desired.  :dontknow:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 12, 2013, 08:56:28 PM
He thought the government should barb wire fence off a large portion of a state like Texas lets say, and just turn all that kind loose to fend for themselves. He had little doubt they would suffer a just penance for their sins there, a hell on earth as it were, and we wouldn't have to pick and choose, they would accomplish the task for us.

That is just another form of Capital Punishment, "Escape From New York" style.  If you sentence anyone to such a Walled Off prison with no Prison Guards, no food and no water other than what naturally falls in such a neighborhood (not much nowadays), they'll just Cannibalize each other.  It is the Sentencing that determines Life or Death.

I am fine with this one if it is the Consensus Means of Capital Punishment, we can set up "Eye in the Sky" cameras to watch the Action.  :icon_sunny:

RE

Entertainment at it's finest ;D

lloyd takes on Jamie in a rock throwing fight over a rabbit for supper. Had a feeling you would see the merit in Mr Capote's plan, presented it just for your contemplation DM. Execution the fun and easy way GO calls it. Look Ma no blood on my hands.  ;D ;D :D :D :laugh: :exp-grin: :exp-grin: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:

GO shows up with some humor! Finally, somebody breaks the spell! LOL

I wonder what the good NSA thinks of our comparing CEOs and baby rapers?  :o Hello, spooks  8), what do you REALLY think? That is why you are building that big spook machine, right, so YOU aren't the ones who get EATEN. Munch munch. EMMMMMMMM...

Reality is, nature gonna take care of most of them "zombies." That, or by their own hand. What! No TEEVEE! No SHOPPING! Down goes the WHOLE bottle of FUKITOL.

Anybody here REALLY ready for fast collapse, the whole MF thing collapsing on our heads? What about that trailer park across the street LD? Me, in the CITY! DHS parked at the fringes with three .40 cal rounds for every soul in the metro. That should be fun. 

Probably still be havin this conversation a decade from now.



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 09:06:27 PM
Probably still be havin this conversation a decade from now.

Not according to Elvis.  His Triangle of Doom predicts a 2 year Window here before TSHTF in earnest. By the Numbers, in the Elvis fashion.

I'll give it 5 before the consequences of the ToD work inward enough in the FSoA to really make some changes here.  A decade though seems unlikely to me.

Time is now to Shit or Get off the Pot.  It is Now or Never for SUN  :icon_sunny: Time.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 12, 2013, 09:14:48 PM
Quote
I'll give it 5 before the consequences of the ToD work inward enough in the FSoA to really make some changes here.  A decade though seems unlikely to me.

I can see ten or maybe twenty if the oil price breaks big here.  Would have thought that to be impossible a short while back, but the crashing world economy, and fracking frenzy could postpone the oil horror for a decade or more.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 12, 2013, 09:23:58 PM
Quote from LD, on the Off The Grid In Minneapolis thread:

Quote
    Seems the Doomstead just upt it's dose of doom here lately doesn't it William?

    What gives man?  You need to be countering my Zombie Whispering ass...not agreeing with me :icon_mrgreen:


Zombie still a unique, astonishing, utterly beautiful manifestation of the spirit, a divine being, a child of the earth, a child of the sun, Homo sapien sapien, SACRED.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 12, 2013, 09:26:41 PM
Probably still be havin this conversation a decade from now.

Not according to Elvis.  His Triangle of Doom predicts a 2 year Window here before TSHTF in earnest. By the Numbers, in the Elvis fashion.

I'll give it 5 before the consequences of the ToD work inward enough in the FSoA to really make some changes here.  A decade though seems unlikely to me.

Time is now to Shit or Get off the Pot.  It is Now or Never for SUN  :icon_sunny: Time.

RE

Agreed. a little more or less, with Elvis, on that point. And RE.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 12, 2013, 09:54:20 PM
Quote from LD, on the Off The Grid In Minneapolis thread:

Quote
    Seems the Doomstead just upt it's dose of doom here lately doesn't it William?

    What gives man?  You need to be countering my Zombie Whispering ass...not agreeing with me :icon_mrgreen:


Zombie still a unique, astonishing, utterly beautiful manifestation of the spirit, a divine being, a child of the earth, a child of the sun, Homo sapien sapien, SACRED.

see, that's the kind of shit that you can get away with saying gracefully.  If I said it I would sound like I didn't know what I was talking about. 

SACRED is important.

As long as we still have something that is sacred and shared among us we should be good to go.  My sacred is nature and all things natural...which includes death. 

You just gotta have the courage to proceed as if you are not afraid.  That's been my experience of the dark nights.  The nights I was locked away in a solitary cell illuminated by fluorescent light and Big Brother.  I looked at it's face and expressed that I was not afraid.  And I'm not. 

Not for me...for my sons on the other hand.  There is that awful force out there that I must contend with on their behalf.  Gotta fight to the bitter end cause I'm not planning on checkin' out any time soon.  I figure I've got at least another 20 years...even in a fast collapse scenario.  I'm good with that.  Zen will be 23 and it will be 2033.  Oh shit...did I just predict my own demise ::)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 12, 2013, 10:15:02 PM
I figure I've got at least another 20 years...even in a fast collapse scenario.  I'm good with that.  Zen will be 23 and it will be 2033.  Oh shit...did I just predict my own demise ::)

I'm Hopin' for 10.  I think that will be enough for me to see TEOTWAWKI from the 50 Yard Line here on this side of the Great Beyond.  Then when the time comes at the Foxstead, after LD field amputates my Gangrene PAD ridden legs,  drop me in a Blind with my Barrett, and let the Zombies  and the Army of the Illuminati come.  I'll knock 'em down like Lame Caribou at 1000 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ut7aMC9POyo?feature=player_detailpage

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 13, 2013, 03:59:22 AM
I have no issues with Eating another Human, even without a BBQ first, long as said "Human" is Lloyd Blankfein or John Corzine.  In the words of Magua from Last of the Mohicans

Gross!! With all the garbage that humans put into their bodies!?!?  :13344-6:  Who'd want to eat that?  Give me something that ate some good fresh grass any day....

I've been eating Feed Lot Cattle Rib Eye Steaks my whole life, not to mention the crap I ate for 6 years at Truckstops.  I got a cast iron stomach.  I doubt a couple of Human Hearts would touch me.  :icon_mrgreen:

Anyhow, I'll take the Risk.  Call it Taking one for the Gipper.  LOL

RE

What, you didn't read/see "The Road?" Not talking truck stop BBQ here; talking about a hyperconcentration of heavy metals and industrial toxins right from the top of the food chain.

Worse for you than even a Big Mac.

That's time to go veg.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 13, 2013, 04:24:55 AM
Thanks Eddie!  :emthup:

I've been on the internet since 1996. Around 1998 I started seeing, in the newspapers and on the internet LOTS of adds about "JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND GET A FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION!". I smelled a rat called WAR. I thought the Kosovo thing would blow up to some European war but I also remember the web site "World Net Daily" screaming about the Ayatollahs in Iran and how we had to fight them...

I told my wife they are cooking up a war. I told everyone that would listen that the "free college" was a hook to beef up the size of the "volunteer US military" with cannon fodder. We all know what happened. 

People just don't GET that the stuff that is OUT there WORKS the mindfuck for the MATRIX quite well. To dismiss the silly repetition as nonsensical gibberish is laziness. It's there for a reason and the more people figure out that reason, the less the propaganda works.

Remember when Bush was in Iraq in secret and they announced all kinds of details of the Turkey dinner that Condolezza Rice was invited to at the RANCH just beforehand? I do. I went back and read how the Washington Post and the New York Times MADE SURE people read this inane bit of ""innocent" Thanksgiving food prattle. I have gone as far as to say the very top dogs in the MATRIX are media moguls. But generalizations are no good. Whenever something sounds like a non sequitur, they are confusing you to get your mind off something else. Just like the big flap about a "leak" now and Obama's "endangered term" made me ask, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? They are trying to hide the fact that the empire is LOSING in SYRIA by making as much noise as possible in an attempt to blackmail Obama to start the war. I checked the news within ONE day of this "leak" shit. Low and behold, Assad is wiping the death squad strongholds out. Panic time for the MATRIX. Bring out another "scandal".

If more people did the critical thinking leg work to see how the game is played, less people would be taken in by it.

Exactly, exactly, AG.  :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:

The only way to decode the MSM is the way you watch a magician: watch what he is doing with his off or away hand. Consider everything you arre seeing a distraction, if you want to understand how the trick works. Trouble in the middle east? Play the runaway bride story hard. And the Natalie Holloway story got the better part of a year of play...

In Virginia, the administration of Gov. Transvaginal Ultrasound and his AG made significant war on women last year, occasioning a lot of counter demonstration and activist effort. I counseled Contrary, "Wait for the other shoe to drop." The other shoe (s) were plans to privatize road/tunnel construction projects and the Port of Viirginia, plus the effort to end an existing ban on Uranium mining, essentially selling off the commons to commercial (and foreign) interests.

The politics of distraction.

An age old game: fleece the rubes.

My personal rule of thumb is tha thte only thing in the daily paper that is not a lie are the box scores.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 13, 2013, 04:44:44 AM
Now I'll remain silent for a while and see what the population culling crowd has to add.

I welcome any more thoughts of yours on this and the "zombie" issue as well.  :emthup:

Well, judging by the comments, your Truth to Power rants hardly made a dent in the Lebensunwertes Leben crowd... not sure what there is left to say...

As far as "Zombies" go, I think monsta made a fine point about this earlier... there is a proliferation of them in pop culture entertainment, conveniently representing the purely evil, robotic, heartless, mindless, etc. ex-humans who have been "INFECTED" and we should not even hesitate to exterminate en masse. As you said, SHOOT, STAB, BURN, GAS first... ask questions later!

(he then went on to propose a future eugenics policy, which was disappointing... and a tad bit ironic...)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 13, 2013, 04:49:04 AM
Hello Ashvin :laugh:

Good to have you comment...so far

hell...maybe you'll surprise me :laugh:

Nope, probably not... ;) But maybe YOU will surprise ME and start thinking of "religion" like this:

Quote from: LD
To me it's just fact, and not a value judgement.  I was a zombie until I got out of the Navy...pretty much.  It's not about thinking the way I do, or having the same humor, or cussin' or not, it's about knowing the objective truth about our society.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: BC2K on June 13, 2013, 05:07:57 AM
I'll weigh in on my impression of "true Zombie", (from a very long veteran Doomer-Prepper career and point of view...)

- Has all the resolutions and intentions of being ready for TEOTWAWKI
- Joins survivalist, preppers groups or forums and spews a battery of buzz-words, inexperienced useless advice and cool inuendos
- Spends countless hours on the net participating in fantasy plans and proposals
- Envisions bugging out in the woods and living off the land, like flipping a switch to "Daniel Boone" or "Little House on the Prairie" times
- Has procured a number of "defensive" weapons and ammunition, but no supplies, equipment and provisions to guard with all of them
- Continues to squander money (and increased debt) on pleasures, toys and useless artifacts, neglecting absolutely vital essentials to secure survival WTSHTF
- Procrastinates to the very end and on "Day X" comes to the true realization he/she is truly f... -er- doomed i.e. "a Zombie"

oops... sorry, I forgot what Carl Jung said that "people can take only so much reality"  :-\
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 13, 2013, 10:48:11 AM
I'll weigh in on my impression of "true Zombie", (from a very long veteran Doomer-Prepper career and point of view...)

I kind of like where you are going with this, but I hate, HATE, *HATE* calling them "true zombies".  The quintessential condition of being a zombie is being completely mindless.  These people are not.  They are delusional, but they are not mindless.

So, let's pick out a different name for them.  Let's look at their characteristics again:

1.  Enhanced awareness
2.  Can transmit their condition
3.  Appear normal
4.  Sudden transformation
5.  Predatory
6.  Violent (after the transformation)
7.  Likes to be in packs

Sounds to me like... WEREWOLVES!

The distinction is very much not trivial.  The danger from zombies is their massive numbers.  Like a plague of locusts, zombies are a one-time problem and then it's over, one way or the other.  Werewolves will be much more dangerous for much longer.

Okay, anyone else want to try some other undead?  Vampires should be pretty easy.  How about mummies, wraiths, ghouls, ghosts, goblins, etc.?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 13, 2013, 11:41:24 AM
Okay, anyone else want to try some other undead?  Vampires should be pretty easy.  How about mummies, wraiths, ghouls, ghosts, goblins, etc.?

Nope...I'm done.

This is what Mike Ruppert has to say on the topic...which is where I got the idea to begin with.  It's from the collapsenet website...not sure if Mike wrote it, but it's been on their site from the beginning of it. 

Quote
Zombie -- (Zom-bee): A moving but brain-dead and soul-dead creature in a human body who functions on the biological, moral, spiritual and intellectual precept that everything in existence is there for its consumption and destruction; without awareness or consciousness of  the ramifications on any other life forms -- including other zombies.

Zombies are living dead. The only proven recourse for living humans is to avoid contact with zombies as much as possible. Zombies automatically and unquestionably believe in the principle of infinite growth and are incapable of conceptualizing other life paradigms. Zombies believe that everything in the universe must be classified and treated as either left or right... without actually defining the terms or using conveniently changing definitions of them. When faced with shortages of anything, zombies frequently revert to cannibalism by eating the lives of other humans to satisfy their insatiable hunger and arrogant and belligerent stupidity. Zombies prefer to eat the living first, thus forcing them to become zombies.
Zombies cannot hear and do not listen to simple scientific laws or do simple arithmetic. Zombies are known for their ability to ask extremely stupid questions and to try and engage in futile arguments with the living, thus paralyzing or retarding useful debate and discussion. Zombies are closely related to vampires in that they exist to suck life and energy out of anything that has life and energy. The zombie paradigm is one of infinite growth in that zombies always need to create more zombies.

Zombies can revert back to living status but this usually happens only when zombies are faced with imminent death. Collapsenet will always welcome former-zombies who have become human again. Current zombies are not welcome here.

http://www.collapsenet.com/core-documents/item/7836-zombie-free-zone (http://www.collapsenet.com/core-documents/item/7836-zombie-free-zone)

Still not sure what else to say on the topic, but it's clear my opinion is a minority one...at least on the Diner. 

I've fallen into a slight funk contemplating the issue.  Not sure where to go from here. 

I'm not a proponent for eugenics and I'm not advocating anybody be killed.  Saying "zombies will be shot on sight" was my idea of a joke, but I can see now maybe not a good one.  I was just playing with the zombie meme really. 

Another George Carlin bit comes to mind.  He talks about euphemisms and how they are really just dishonest.  I agree with him.  No reason to be hurtful with speech, but no reason to sugar coat shit either. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/vuEQixrBKCc

Not exactly applicable here.  But something about what he's saying seems important to me. 
Title: Ashvin said
Post by: agelbert on June 13, 2013, 12:05:59 PM
Quote
Well, judging by the comments, your Truth to Power rants hardly made a dent in the Lebensunwertes Leben crowd... not sure what there is left to say...

Yep.  :( Despite my best efforts, that slippery slope Eddie mentioned is alive and "well" here.  :emthdown:

Eugenics, as in the coming of age test Monsta advocates, is already practiced by our hierarchical society that severely limits opportunity for economic advancement for the less privileged UNLESS they show outstanding intelligence. Society doesn't exactly kill the "losers" but they ARE doomed to a shorter life span on the whole. And eating more polluted foods lowers sperm count. That sounds like eugenics to me. The 1% practices a kind of REVERSE Eugenics in that they perpetrate parasitism, rather than productivity and social responsibility.

So I don't have the scruples about the coming of age test that GO has. I do recognize, of course, that GO is merely extrapolating from the present reality of our corrupt society that a "good" law that is, on the surface, objective, will be quickly twisted to favor the 1% and shaft the Lebensunwertes Leben.

I'm with GO on non-violence but I understand LD and RE's frustration at alluding to our apparent cowardice in the face of hard reality. I take issue with them because they polarize the situation to the extreme where it is either you or the bad guys. Life, even in a jungle, is FILLED with nuance. I refuse to give them a pass on their a priori decision to shoot first and ask questions later. When RE DOES have his legs amputated from PAD or LD DOES become a paralytic from a tornado cracking his pelvis, THEN let's hear whether they have revised their views on Spartan hillsides and Lebensunwertes Leben. WTF happened to NUANCE among these extremely intelligent proliferators of prose? ???  :icon_scratch: :dontknow:

They seem to have it all figured out and my claim to conscience and nuance is branded as a form of cowardice ("ARE YOU GONNA JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE?", ETC.).

Are my words that obscure? Eddie and you heard and understood. So did several others, I'm sure. Your initial "WOW" comment was, from my understanding, an admission that I had successfully questioned a sacred cow.

I guess it may be a LOT MORE "SACRED" to them than I thought.  ;)

The point is that agreeing that we have "too many people" doesn't mean SQUAT if you don't set up rules that include YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. As you said, most don't want to go there and prefer banter to serious introspection. LD has at least agreed to ponder the population issue. I appreciate that. I also love his anecdotes about EMT experiences and how he dealt with them.  :emthup:

That said, RE makes valid points that, regardless of the PTSD level of emotional impact that said gut wrenching experiences have, a general perspective of who is dying and why is important. Thirty six thousand people die of the FLU EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the USA. Comparing that with other deaths and WHY they occur is proper perspective. We need that to be objective.

One very positive outcome of this discussion is that some timelines have been proposed for the collapse. I have placed them in my memory banks for future reference.  ;)

When they DON'T take place, I expect some introspection from the parties in error.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 13, 2013, 12:30:30 PM
Frankly I'm not so much worried about the human population dying off. Every human alive now is bound to die. It's whether or not we can keep having children and getting them raised that may present the more insurmountable problem at some future date. It only takes one generation of no babies to wipe us out forever.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 13, 2013, 12:49:45 PM
Frankly I'm not so much worried about the human population dying off. Every human alive now is bound to die. It's whether or not we can keep having children and getting them raised that may present the more insurmountable problem at some future date. I only takes one generation of no babies to wipe us out forever.

That's the script for Children of Men.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9CFcTY_pik?feature=player_detailpage

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 13, 2013, 12:52:58 PM
Quote
One very positive outcome of this discussion is that some timelines have been proposed for the collapse. I have placed them in my memory banks for future reference.  ;)

When they DON'T take place, I expect some introspection from the parties in error.  :icon_mrgreen:

Agelbert,

So are you saying you do not anticipate a collapse of the existing financial system at any time in the next decade?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 13, 2013, 12:58:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun)

From Wikipedia

John B. Calhoun (May 11, 1917 – September 7, 1995) was an American ethologist and behavioral researcher noted for his studies of population density and its effects on behavior. He claimed that the bleak effects of overpopulation on rodents were a grim model for the future of the human race. During his studies, Calhoun coined the term "behavioral sink" to describe aberrant behaviors in overcrowded population density situations and “beautiful ones” to describe passive individuals who withdrew from all social interaction....

In the early 1960s, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) acquired property in a rural area outside Poolesville, Maryland. The facility that was built on this property housed several research projects, including those headed by Calhoun. It was here that his most famous experiment, the mouse universe, was created.[1] In July 1968 four pairs of mice were introduced into the Utopian universe. The universe was a 9-foot (2.7 m) square metal pen with 54-inch-high (1.4 m) sides. Each side had four groups of four vertical, wire mesh “tunnels”. The “tunnels” gave access to nesting boxes, food hoppers, and water dispensers. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.

Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly. The last surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against. After day 600 the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed “the beautiful ones”.

The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ALL THIS, DESPITE THAT THEY HAD PLENTY TO EAT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 13, 2013, 01:26:56 PM
The term zombie was never really a complete serious term so I don't think it is productive to analyse the term with a microscope. Zombies don't really exist so it can never be true if one wishes to get real literal with the term. It is a semi-series term and should be treated as such, it is useful because it captures a complex phenomenon and distils into a simple concept that is easy to grasp. Like most generalisations though it will have its flaws but then the term was never meant to be seen as such. It is just a tool to get people to develop a line of reasoning...

As for the population issue, I see the eugenics idea wasn't too popular. I just want to be clear that solution I suggested is not something I advocate to prevent population overshoot. I know the idea will never gain any traction today so it is a waste of time promoting it now. It could be seen as a more realistic solution once people have seen the horrors that population overshoot will bring. At that point people would be more open to the idea of actively controlling the population. The idea I did suggest however is different to the traditional view of eugenics because there is no end-goal of trying to develop a better race of humans. That is not the objective of this exercise. The object of the exercise is to weed out personality traits that are damaging to greater society and/or to ensure population is kept within the carry capacity of the local environment. If no population control measures are exercised the populations will naturally rise until most of society is living at a subsistence level. I personally do not believe this scenario is optimal so I believe it is best that some method of population control must be utilised if we wish to maximise the quality of life for members of society. As a final note this suggestions of a coming of age test is not the only way this end could be achieved so I would be open to the idea of other methods of population control. If you wish to call this eugenics however so be it. I just wanted to convey what I wanted with this idea, it is not to make the human race better.

As for the actual human population issue in some ways I feel a natural die-off is needed. The problem I see is people firmly believe in the idea that infinite growth is possible and that there are no real consequences to overconsumption because, as the story goes, human ingenuity and technology can overcome ALL LIMITS. This idea is so deeply embedded in the human psyche because this dynamic has always worked out as human ingenuity has always won out. It only when this dynamic ends that this dangerous idea can be shattered and go to the great beyond. There must be REAL CONSEQUENCES to overconsumption and it is only in that moment when people will realise that there are actual consequences to mindless consumption.

To me, the whole dynamic is playing out like someone who is suffering from depression. You can tell, scream or cajole the person into seeing the light until you are blue in the face but until they can really see the depth of your words then they will not change their ways. In rare circumstances the message can seep through but often the effort is futile. In many cases the only way people will learn is through harsh experiences. I feel mankind is the same position. Even if we could throw the best theories and explain everything perfectly with exact detail and precision people would not believe it because they don't want to believe it. For them to change they must want to be changed; it cannot be forced. It is this reason why I feel we should not spend too much energy trying to convince zombies (or insert term of your choice for zombie).

At the same time, like I mentioned earlier, real change in public attitudes will only come out if something bad happens. Once the real horrors occur then people will finally get that overconsumption of critical resources does in fact lead to your own destruction. The concept will no longer be a mere theoretical concept but a physical reality. At that point it will become possible to offer real solutions and a better tomorrow. The Diner exists in my eyes so that theories of a better tomorrow can be hashed out in a relatively calm environment before the shit hits the fan. When the shit hits the fan and peoples' theories of how life should be fall apart then that is the time you peddle your alternate theory on how things should be. Once the current paradigm is dead then it becomes that much easier to promote other theories. As another note in a period of chaos and lack of order people are more suggestible to radical ideas. Often the pigmen use this chaos for their own ends but for the Diners this can be seen as an opportunity. However for that to work you must hash out a theory today so it is sound for the day of judgement. Just remember if we look at human population:

(http://www.paulchefurka.ca/World%20Population.JPG)

We see a clear explosion in the last century or so. If we saw human population as a price of a stock in the stock exchange every trader would be shorting that stock like crazy. Yet if you insert the words "human population" on the top of that stock then everyone will say this time it is different. Dangerous words that and histrionically they have proven wrong time and time again. How humans are behaving is like a first time bull. First time bulls can never be convinced that there stock will go anywhere but up. Doesn't matter what facts you can dish out on those folks. The only way first time bulls learn is if they lose their shirts. Man needs to lose his shirt to realise he is not actually god and can reverse the laws of nature.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 13, 2013, 02:24:44 PM
I don't get why it's so difficult to see the problem in labeling people "zombies", esp when Ruppert's definition is used:

Quote
Zombie -- (Zom-bee): A moving but brain-dead and soul-dead creature in a human body

Don't have to go any further than that. If we ("collapse doomers") can't see the major problems with dumping large swaths of people into this category, then we need to get our vision checked!

I know people think of it as a useful "term of art" around here, but I think AG did an excellent job of explaining why we should think of it as much more than that. This is especially true if we legitimately believe in our repeatedly harped on "convictions" about societal decay/collapse.

(btw, I'm well aware I have an article in the public domain doing EXACTLY this type of zombie classification - http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-2-2011-debt-walkers-strike.html (http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-2-2011-debt-walkers-strike.html) - so please don't try to use that against me  :-\ )

Quote
That said, RE makes valid points that, regardless of the PTSD level of emotional impact that said gut wrenching experiences have, a general perspective of who is dying and why is important. Thirty six thousand people die of the FLU EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the USA. Comparing that with other deaths and WHY they occur is proper perspective. We need that to be objective.

Yeah, I see what you're saying here. My main problem is with the demonization of people. Justice should be served and it is hugely lacking for corporate criminals, but I believe we should seek justice out of a desire to either right wrongs or promote deterrence, not for pure retribution or to make people suffer. And justice should be served on an individualized basis, not some kind of ex post group classification.

If I were a reasonable person just visiting this forum, my impression would be that wholesale demonization is being advocated, rather than justice, despite, or perhaps even because of, the humorous overtones included, of which I will admit there are plenty.

On the issue of collapse timelines, I will make the daring doomer admission that my ambivalence about "fast collapse" has greatly increased over the past year.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 13, 2013, 02:31:03 PM
Lebensunwertes Leben...man that's just fucked up to equate this with what I'm saying. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensunwertes_Leben (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensunwertes_Leben)

"Life unworthy of life"!!!

Who the fuck said anything about life not being worthy of life?  I know I've never said anything to that effect...at least nothing that was meant by me to be taken that way. 

I've said it many times...I'm not advocating anybody be killed.  I'm against anything resembling eugenics. 

Quote
Eugenics:  the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)  or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eugenics?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eugenics?s=t)

Monsta already dealt with this issue I think.  He's just trying to alleviate suffering for our species...and that's a noble thing.  Just because it feels eugenicish to talk about doesn't mean you can't.  There is a clear difference. 

I never said anything about eugenics.  The worst thing I said was that zombies will be shot on sight...which I dealt with already.  However, if it came down to my family or a zombies family...not really a decision IMO. 

So I'm not advocating eugenics and don't appreciate the Lebensunwertes Leben Nazi shit either.  No ones trying to build any master races here...we're just trying to figure out how to not be a knuckleheaded species in an unwelcome, probable near term, future.  Zombies are dangerous now in a still chaos free society.  I've seen too many zombies in real life to give up that title.  While they are not the Hollywood creature that's become so popular, they are real if we are to use the definition that I have provided at Epiphany Now...or even just Collapsenet's definition is fine with me.  Same creature. 

I'm not saying Zombies should be killed.  I'm saying they will die just fine on their own, but if they come around a future foxstead in times of chaos they will be dealt with swiftly.  I want all of the zombies to wake up and start dealing with reality.  I don't want them to be put to death, or for them to perish needlessly.  I don't want to spread suffering.  However, I'm not an idiot, and I know that Zombyitis cannot be cured by anybody other than the infected.  They either want their head out of the sand, or they don't.  I realize there are all of the gray areas in-between, but I have a family to be concerned with.  I don't care about those gray areas.   



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 13, 2013, 03:02:44 PM
As for the population issue, I see the eugenics idea wasn't too popular. I just want to be clear that solution I suggested is not something I advocate to prevent population overshoot. I know the idea will never gain any traction today so it is a waste of time promoting it now. It could be seen as a more realistic solution once people have seen the horrors that population overshoot will bring. At that point people would be more open to the idea of actively controlling the population. The idea I did suggest however is different to the traditional view of eugenics because there is no end-goal of trying to develop a better race of humans. That is not the objective of this exercise. The object of the exercise is to weed out personality traits that are damaging to greater society and/or to ensure population is kept within the carry capacity of the local environment. If no population control measures are exercised the populations will naturally rise until most of society is living at a subsistence level. I personally do not believe this scenario is optimal so I believe it is best that some method of population control must be utilised if we wish to maximise the quality of life for members of society. As a final note this suggestions of a coming of age test is not the only way this end could be achieved so I would be open to the idea of other methods of population control. If you wish to call this eugenics however so be it. I just wanted to convey what I wanted with this idea, it is not to make the human race better.

Monsta, this is eugenics, and the objective meaning of what you just stated above is an "end-goal of trying to develop a better race of humans". How can you deny that when you say the object is to "weed out personality traits". The concept of optimal population is also one that implies an end goal of optimizing the human species. You may not be thinking in strictly biological terms, but certainly in social terms.

I have to wonder, were you upset by all this recent hoopla about the NSA invading privacy? If so, how would you feel if there was a National Population Control Agency that routinely invaded the citizenry's fundamental right to live and reproduce, and the potential right of future humans to exist? Some type of executive institution like that would be required.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 13, 2013, 03:20:52 PM


I have to wonder, were you upset by all this recent hoopla about the NSA invading privacy? If so, how would you feel if there was a National Population Control Agency that routinely invaded the citizenry's fundamental right to live and reproduce, and the potential right of future humans to exist? Some type of executive institution like that would be required.

This is true, and it's depressing isn't it.  But what is the alternative?  What are you advocating Ashvin?  There's a good chance nature is going to take care of this for us.  Probably will actually.  So maybe the entire discussion about overpopulation is a non sequitur?  If I understand what a non sequitur is properly. 

Maybe overpopulation is already a reality.  At least if we are to compare present population to what the Earth can support in anything resembling a sustainable fashion. 

I know, to answer you question to Monsta, that I definitely do not want any governmental agency telling me that my vas deferens needs to be cut.  As an aside, I applied for medicaid back when we applied for Zen and GM.  I was denied with the exception of the family planning side of things.  If I want to get sterilized the state will already pay for it...bu that is the only medical thing they will pay for.  If that tornado comes and I get my pelvis broke, as Agelbert has highlighted...I'm shit out of luck and jolly well fucked.  But if I want my balls cut they'll do it tomorrow for free.   :icon_scratch:

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 13, 2013, 03:43:43 PM

As for the population issue, I see the eugenics idea wasn't too popular.

What you described wasn't Eugenics, that's a strawman.  It would only be eugenics if you had people applying artificial criteria, like say IQ tests to determine who lives and who dies.  What you described was more like a Darwinian selection system, much like the Rites of Passage tests many tribes have in place for passing into Manhood.  Such tests are not as common for females, who get their own test in Childbirth.  Enough women get knocked off that way they don't need any further tests.

Anyhow, even if nobody else supports the idea Monsta, I think it is one of the most fair systems devised for population control.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 13, 2013, 04:02:34 PM


This is what Mike Ruppert has to say on the topic...which is where I got the idea to begin with.  It's from the collapsenet website...not sure if Mike wrote it, but it's been on their site from the beginning of it. 

Quote
Zombie -- (Zom-bee): A moving but brain-dead and soul-dead creature in a human body who functions on the biological, moral, spiritual and intellectual precept that everything in existence is there for its consumption and destruction; without awareness or consciousness of  the ramifications on any other life forms -- including other zombies.

Good description of 99% of people living in Industrialized Culture.

Anyone currently walking the Earth who doesn't grasp that most people are Imbeciles is an Imbecile.  Given that I can't Save Everyone, Imbeciles are lower down my list for saving than Diners.  This is CFS.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 13, 2013, 04:08:08 PM
Just to weigh in here uninvited, I would like to ask why no one seems to have found Calhoun's experiment that WHD reported to be of significance. You know that we already had the Scopes trial long ago in one of our most unenlightened Fundamentalist communities. Is it necessary to rehash it again. You have to understand,People, that there is what is, and then again there is what ain't. By that I mean to say that all the warm fuzzy feelings pertaining to HSS's so called higher nature are not going to deter "Survival of the Fittest". Who ever or WHATEVER invented or started this whole system of predator and prey did not give a hoot in Hell for the pain of the prey or the fact that the Parasites in actuality will most definitely outlast us. PEOPLE! You are all extremely intelligent. "WE"HSSes are not the center of the known and unknown universe, no matter how much pain we are in. IT IS NOT NOR EVER HAS BEEN A BENEVOLENT ENVIRONMENT DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR US! GET OVER IT AND GET ON WITH IT. Some of us are capable of feeling compassion and a longing for JUSTICE and most are not. Most people are numb just from the abuse directed at them from birth, starting from having been brought into the world to suit somebody else's agenda. THAT IS WHY THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE SEEK TO MEDICATE THEIR PAIN THROUGH DRUGS, ALCOHOL, SEX, PREYING ON OTHERS LESS POWERFUL,and last but not least projecting their own garbage onto others and the world outside their crazed minds. Pitiably, they are ZOMBIES, the walking dead. You don't really have to worry about killing them because NATURE BATS LAST. Get on with your own preparations and for CHRIST'S SAKE get off of Lucid's back. He is entitled to whatever feelings he has. And WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO PROPOSE OTHERWISE?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 13, 2013, 04:11:49 PM


I have to wonder, were you upset by all this recent hoopla about the NSA invading privacy? If so, how would you feel if there was a National Population Control Agency that routinely invaded the citizenry's fundamental right to live and reproduce, and the potential right of future humans to exist? Some type of executive institution like that would be required.

This is true, and it's depressing isn't it.  But what is the alternative?  What are you advocating Ashvin?  There's a good chance nature is going to take care of this for us.  Probably will actually.  So maybe the entire discussion about overpopulation is a non sequitur?  If I understand what a non sequitur is properly. 

Maybe overpopulation is already a reality.  At least if we are to compare present population to what the Earth can support in anything resembling a sustainable fashion. 

Here are the facts:

According to the Population Reference Bureau's "2010 World Population Data Sheet," 4.45 people are born every second worldwide, on the average, and 1.8 people die every second.

Another way to look at it is:
Per minute: 267 born, 108 die, (net population increase: 159)
Per day: 384 thousand born, 156 thousand die, (net increase 229 thousand)
Per year: 140.4 million born, 56.7 million die, (net increase 83.6 million)

As to the efficacy of central planning and birth control, look to china's one child policy, which has led to a generational shortage of young and marriageable women.

Hitler got many of his eugenics ideas from America, especially from california, which passed race based legislation in the early 29th century. HHitler studied American eugenics laws to legitimize his anit-semitism by medicalizing it. The rockefeller foundation funded German eugenics programs and even funded a program Mengele worked in before he headed to Auschwitz.

One Leon Whitner of the American Eugenics Society declared of Nazism, " While we are pussy-footing around, the Germans are calling a spade a spade." And in 1934, even in virginia, the head of Western State HOSPITAL
complained that "The germans are  beating us at our own game" in the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

Made in America.

Eugenics programs are always and everywhere an "Orkin Man" solution. And I will simply refer you to my body of work as to what I think of that.

Meanwhile, we add 230,000 souls every day. Since we can't be trusted to keep it in out own pants, our handlers are orchestrating a "Great Culling..". Since we have little appetitite for compulsory sterilization or euthanasia, our leaders execute it over a longer term via weakening the bloodlines of we muppets, so that they might leave the earth's bounty to their own progeny..
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 13, 2013, 04:24:13 PM
My main problem is with the demonization of people. Justice should be served and it is hugely lacking for corporate criminals, but I believe we should seek justice out of a desire to either right wrongs or promote deterrence, not for pure retribution or to make people suffer. And justice should be served on an individualized basis, not some kind of ex post group classification.

If I were a reasonable person just visiting this forum, my impression would be that wholesale demonization is being advocated, rather than justice, despite, or perhaps even because of, the humorous overtones included, of which I will admit there are plenty.

Thank you introducing "justice."  Ultimately administration of justice depends on the theory that each individual is thus entitled, yes? And that such adminstration is possible.. As you note, there is plenty of evicence to suggest that theory does not measure up to practice. Banks and corporations wield far more power and enjoy greater privileges than mere human "persons."

On the issue of collapse timelines, I will make the daring doomer admission that my ambivalence about "fast collapse" has greatly increased over the past year.

I'll bite. Why?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 13, 2013, 04:26:40 PM
Quote
Quote

One very positive outcome of this discussion is that some timelines have been proposed for the collapse. I have placed them in my memory banks for future reference.  ;)

When they DON'T take place, I expect some introspection from the parties in error.  :icon_mrgreen:

Agelbert,

So are you saying you do not anticipate a collapse of the existing financial system at any time in the next decade?

Oh, I go a LOT farther than that. The financial "system" is an illusion that collapsed in 2008. It is held together now as a power and propaganda exercise. People didn't KNOW the game was rigged with the heart stopping assurance they have now. And those that rig it have the guns.  So the dystopian hologram will continue.

What I am saying WON'T continue is the lackadaisical attitude towards the biosphere POWER to destroy civilization the 1% now have.

I have predicted the first ice free summer in the arctic in 2017. THAT will mark the turning point where the I% rallies all the world economies to do whatever is necessary to make peace with a biosphere at war with humanity. The storms. winds and havoc will REQUIRE the use of the military to help the populace in various countries and will DISTRACT the 1% ASSHOLES from planning new wars for profit.

All this HUMAN HUBRIS about fucking with the biosphere will END.

The HUMAN propensity to dominate other humans will NOT end; it will just be paused for a while.  During WWII, the mafia in the USA worked WITH the US Government to get intelligence info and engage in sabotage  with the mafia in Italy. When the war ended, it was back to "business" as usual.

I agree with you that the population "problem" will mostly take care of itself.


The mouse experiment is great for mice. Sperm count is going down everywhere in human males but I think the dynamics are far more sophisticated than what was observed in the mice populations.

Large cities, at this time, have lots of food and exploding populations too, even though people are practically living on top of each other.

People aren't mice. Culture, entertainment and quality of life (whether a plastic multicolored hologram polluted city illusion or not) makes people feel happy.

Humans aren't like plants that, when they are severely stressed, put out a LOT of seeds in the hopes of getting some offspring to make it through the rough spot. No, they multiply when they are well fed AND happy.

If people feel imprisoned, they will probably NOT have offspring. The issue isn't crowding but a perception of community and freedom of action or lack of it.

Those DE-population dynamics are NOT enough to bring down the financial make believe we are surrounded with. You can hold me to that. And HELL NO, I'm not rooting for this financial con game to go on. I'm just being realistic.

I agree with Ashvin's perception that a newbie here monitoring this will interpret the banter as a form of calloused, blood thirsty attitude towards some humans that don't "DESERVE TO LIVE".

If I don't think there will be a big collapse anytime soon, why do I wail and moan about leaving babies and/or people who can't fend for themselves on a hillside? After all, I don't expect for things to get that bad except in isolated, severely weather beaten areas of the planet.  :icon_scratch:

Because it is filling your minds with HATE and PREJUDICE. It is EMBITTERING your souls and making you grim. You claim you are happy as pigs in shit and nothing really bothers you that much because you know all these bad guys are going down.

That's NOT how you come across. Your anger spewing venom at TPTB is certainly accurate but I sense a branding by you and others here of a group of humans. That's worse FOR YOU than for them, you know. You can handle it, you say. If you keep this up, you may have hypertension soon.

Get this, William. Every DAY that goes by and THE COLLAPSE does NOT occur is feeding your anger and frustration. Did you know the Finnish assholes are building a NEW NUCLEAR REACTOR!!? How do you think that makes me feel? But I'm also aware of competing technologies that are cheaper so I think, eventually, CFS will win out there.

Every time I hear you get pissed about supporting some "zombie" with your taxes, I cringe. You are sitting there calmly saying that, if you were in charge, agelbert's pension stops and I can fucking starve for all you care because I'm not "pulling my weight", RIGHT?

What's more, you can hardly wait for the collapse. You dream about it and plan your vengeance on all the "zombies" that made your life miserable now.

How long can you keep it up William? If the collapse doesn't occur on your time schedule, do you have an exit strategy from that mindset? For your mental and physical health, I recommend that you envision the future I envision as a LOW PROBABILITY EVENT even if you think I'm full of shit.  :icon_mrgreen:

LD, for example, is on a 100% future bet hedging plan of action despite all his "zombie" talk. If civilization just muddles along, he'll be able to raise a family of two or more kids on a piece of land with his nursing pay and his wife's help. He spends a lot more time planning on saving lives than terminating them. That's smart. ;)

Hold on to your integrity and love of the biosphere. Just don't forget your species is part of it, warts and all.

Title: Can We Build Sharing Into The Culture?
Post by: agelbert on June 13, 2013, 04:50:47 PM
Can We Build Sharing Into The Culture?                 
Meet Janelle Orsi, a brilliant young lawyer who wants to see us share a whole lot more of everything. She co-wrote the book The Sharing Solution: How To Save Money, Simplify Your Life and Build Community.

"It makes life FUN" she exclaims. She wants to see the culture move in the direction of more sharing, as a solution, literally to saving the consumer world from itself. We're talking about sharing child care, elder care, establishing tool lending libraries, co-housing communities, household goods, sharing cars and much much more.

Orsi dedicated her practice to working out the legalities of sharing. She helps with things like regulatory and tax issues when people share a car or home.

She and fellow lawyer Jennifer Kassan co-founded the Sustainable Economies Law Center to help people formalize collaborative structures of all kinds.

Get ready for the new sharing economy!

Janaia Donaldson of Peak Moment TV asks all the right questions!

--Bibi Farber

This video was produced by www.peakmoment.tv (http://www.peakmoment.tv), offering programs on locally reliant living for challenging times.


Even if you only have 90 seconds, the very beginning of this video gives you enough to inspire you all day.

Video (27:11)

http://www.youtube.com/v/cXmfKOpnzpY#&fs=1
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 13, 2013, 05:01:57 PM
Monsta, this is eugenics, and the objective meaning of what you just stated above is an "end-goal of trying to develop a better race of humans". How can you deny that when you say the object is to "weed out personality traits". The concept of optimal population is also one that implies an end goal of optimizing the human species. You may not be thinking in strictly biological terms, but certainly in social terms.

I have to wonder, were you upset by all this recent hoopla about the NSA invading privacy? If so, how would you feel if there was a National Population Control Agency that routinely invaded the citizenry's fundamental right to live and reproduce, and the potential right of future humans to exist? Some type of executive institution like that would be required.

The problem with most civilisations is they are unsustainable. Why are they often unsustainable? It is because they are artificial constructs made by man to service his own needs. He makes the environment adapt to his needs rather than the other way round as occurs in uncivilised societies. While at the beginning civilisations can be good the general tendency is for these societies to keep expanding until the population exceeds its natural carrying capacity. The issue of population is a recurring one and this problem is only made worse by the disposition of always wanting to have more. What trait gives rise to this need to always want more? It is greed and this is the trait that should actively be weeded out of society. Problem with modern industrialised society which has played much to our current quagmire is greed is actively rewarded. As Thatcher once said: greed is good. It is this trait that I propose that should be weeded out. The Bible and most religions consider greed to be a vice so actively fighting against this trait cannot be seen as such a terrible thing especially if you consider that weeding out this trait can do much to allowing the general population to lead a more sustainable lifestyle that can also yield a higher quality of life for members.

But even if you were to argue this reasoning for population is unacceptable and unjust you still have the problem of natural carrying capacity. The land can only support so many people and this natural carrying capacity will also be dependent on the quality of life. If you wish for people to have a greater material standard of living the natural carrying capacity will be lower. If on the other hand you feel all forms of population control are unacceptable then you must accept that most people will live a subsistence lifestyle. This has historically been the case so it is reasonable to assume this will apply in the future. Now personally I believe that quality of life is more important and it is my personal opinion that some population control measures should be made to ensure that greater society enjoys a higher quality of life. This is only my personal opinion however. If you think this choice is immoral and feel such issues should not be controlled then you must accept the consequences of those actions, or more accurate inactions. There is no free lunch in this kind of deal and you will face some kind of blow back whatever decision you take. Another important point to grasp is you can't have something from nothing. There is always a price to pay for whatever action you make. I do not suggest my solutions will have no sacrifices they will have sacrifices I just think the benefits for general society would outweigh the costs.

As I said earlier, I do not consider this eugenics because the objective is not to make humans better. It is to ensure society remains sustainable. The greed disposition is only target because this trait poses a threat to maintaining a sustainable society. The other safeguard would ideally be to limit the amount of power each member has because another problem man has they get corrupted by power so small societies that have less hierarchal structures and are more anarchy in nature would be favoured also. This also has the bonus of limiting the potentials for greed to be rewarded as no one member can accumulate excessive amounts of wealth or power. Two conduits that greedy would abuse.

As for NSA and all the violations made in the name of "security" I am outraged by all of these things. You are right these are more pressing issues and feel people should focus more on that. At the end of the day these population control issues are just academic exercises as the only time these ideas could become relevant is when I will long be dead. As it stands it is best for man to experience a natural die-off. I have faith man will not go extinct in this die-off and I also have faith that lessons will be learned that they must respect the environment and overconsumption does have consequences. Those lessons can only be learned through suffering so this punishment as it were has to come. The main task should just be to form lifeboats to personally survive the coming storms and try not to save all of humanity. Save as many as you can and leave it at that. I don't plan on changing the world.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 13, 2013, 05:28:15 PM
Quote
Because it is filling your minds with HATE and PREJUDICE. It is EMBITTERING your souls and making you grim. You claim you are happy as pigs in shit and nothing really bothers you that much because you know all these bad guys are going down.

That's NOT how you come across. Your anger spewing venom at TPTB is certainly accurate but I sense a branding by you and others here of a group of humans. That's worse FOR YOU than for them, you know. You can handle it, you say. If you keep this up, you may have hypertension soon.

Get this, William. Every DAY that goes by and THE COLLAPSE does NOT occur is feeding your anger and frustration. Did you know the Finnish assholes are building a NEW NUCLEAR REACTOR!!? How do you think that makes me feel? But I'm also aware of competing technologies that are cheaper so I think, eventually, CFS will win out there.

Every time I hear you get pissed about supporting some "zombie" with your taxes, I cringe. You are sitting there calmly saying that, if you were in charge, agelbert's pension stops and I can fucking starve for all you care because I'm not "pulling my weight", RIGHT?

What's more, you can hardly wait for the collapse. You dream about it and plan your vengeance on all the "zombies" that made your life miserable now.

How long can you keep it up William? If the collapse doesn't occur on your time schedule, do you have an exit strategy from that mindset? For your mental and physical health, I recommend that you envision the future I envision as a LOW PROBABILITY EVENT even if you think I'm full of shit.  :icon_mrgreen:

agelbert,

Um, are you sure you have the right William? LOL.  :icon_scratch:

Where precisely do you get the idea that I have vengeance in me? Where do you get the idea that I want the society to collapse so my nine year old niece and 2 year old nephew can live in the midst of roving bands of crazed, starving people?

I don't like being preyed upon by city inspectors or bankers any more than I care to be characterized as bloodthirsty. Smoke pot, get drunk, make music, grow things, build things, is basically my message. You think I wrote that SUN prospectus because I want to kill people? Do I write commentary and send it to my local city newspaper about the madness of nuclear because I want vengeance? What did I say to LD, in this thread and another? Zombie still a unique, astonishing, utterly beautiful manifestation of the spirit, a divine being, a child of the earth, a child of the sun, Homo sapien sapien, SACRED.

BTW, here's a link from a guy who says the arctic will be ice free THIS YEAR. http://www.apollo-gaia.org/Arctic%20Dynamics.pdf (http://www.apollo-gaia.org/Arctic%20Dynamics.pdf)  What though, are TPTB doing, to distract from the NSA? Claiming now with "certainty" that Assad is gassing his people - so that we can commence WWIII.

I am no threat to your pension, agelbert. I hope you receive that pension until you die of old age. I wouldn't bet on it though. Better to take that SUN prospectus seriously.

And for the record, I think all this eugenics/orkin man/zombie talk BLOWS.  :(

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 13, 2013, 06:03:57 PM
Just to weigh in here uninvited, I would like to ask why no one seems to have found Calhoun's experiment that WHD reported to be of significance.
K, I always am glad to see your input...

I did want to thank William for the reference on Calhoun's experiment.  I had seen an exhibit on it at a science museum, so it was old news to me, but it was nice to see the reference again.  Quite frankly, I can see a lot of myself in "the beautiful ones".
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 13, 2013, 06:08:31 PM
Quote
I wouldn't bet on it though. Better to take that SUN prospectus seriously.


I don't bet. I'm retired.  :icon_mrgreen: The fact that YOU don't think I should bet on it is telling.  Nevertheless, I'm glad you aren't targeting my pension. Thank you (I mean that quite seriously). And, according to Roamer, I took the SUN prospectus more seriously than most people here, did I not?

Yeah, I consider THAT a low probability event but it is a serious possibility that needs to be pondered seriously. The SUN project does not REQUIRE a collapse to exist  and thrive.  :icon_sunny:


Quote
And for the record, I think all this eugenics/orkin man/zombie talk BLOWS.  :(


I stand corrected and apologize for thinking you were in the "herd em' and burn em' crowd. :sorry:

I'm glad you're main concern is keeping people, as well as plants, alive and well.  :emthup:

However, every time I read talk about the need for DE-population, I am going to bring it DIRECTLY TO THE DINER"S POPULATION to ensure broad sweeping statements translate to BOOTS ON THE GROUND PAIN.

And ANYONE advocating depopulation that remains silent when ANYBODY HERE talks about having a number of offspring that, if all humans do it, will cause a population INCREASE, is a hypocrite.

It's not okay for US to do it but claim somebody else can't. We Americans have been doing that with ENERGY  for over a century. Hypocrisy is in our blood. I can still remember reading about our disproportionate per capita energy use compared with other countries in National Geographic in the early 1970s! I said, SO WHAT? :iamwithstupid: I am no longer that ignorant fuck.  :emthup:

I DID, however, resolve long before I married to have no more than two. I first married in 1972 and had a vasectomy after "my"(that's another story) second child. I figured if I wanted more, I'd adopt. Human DNA just isn't that different by and large and environment is a bigger influence on a person getting a healthy mind and body than heredity most of the time.

I don't do hypocrisy so I tend to be a pain in the ass when I think my friends are engaging in it. 8)

 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 13, 2013, 06:13:38 PM

Eugenics programs are always and everywhere an "Orkin Man" solution. And I will simply refer you to my body of work as to what I think of that.

Nobody is advocating an Orkin Man Final Solution for Zombies.  The idea is to stop Subsidizing Imbeciles.    Without subsidies, said Imbeciles will die off at a more Rapid rate than Diners.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 13, 2013, 06:55:06 PM
Quote
On the issue of collapse timelines, I will make the daring doomer admission that my ambivalence about "fast collapse" has greatly increased over the past year.

Hi Ashvin, May I ask what caused this new outlook? One or many items over the past year?

Hope you do not mind my curiosity about your statement?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 13, 2013, 07:14:51 PM
JDWheeler42: How nice to meet you. I first read your replies over on Williams blog. I like to think that I've learned something from your style and tone of posting. At least I hope so. Alas I think many of us have been reduced to the category of "The Beautiful Ones". Smugly, I don't think the "beautiful ones" are causing the problems. Do you?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 13, 2013, 08:09:10 PM
JDWheeler42: How nice to meet you. I first read your replies over on Williams blog. I like to think that I've learned something from your style and tone of posting. At least I hope so. Alas I think many of us have been reduced to the category of "The Beautiful Ones". Smugly, I don't think the "beautiful ones" are causing the problems. Do you?

I have no delusions that I am not part of the problem.  But this does remind me of a group I became familiar with about a decade ago, and I see they still have a notable web presence: the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (http://www.vhemt.org/).

Just to be clear, while I think they have a lot of good arguments, they have one fundamental fatal assumption: that all humans everywhere always inevitably have a net negative impact on the environment.  While it may be very hard, I definitely have heard anecdotal evidence that people who do have a net positive impact exist, and this planet can use as many of them as it can get.

If people would just "do more good than harm", the whole question of carrying capacity would be moot.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 13, 2013, 08:43:29 PM
Well JD, I think I may be going soon enough without the voluntary extinction. I will leave that to my fellow slime on the downtown streets of Oakland. I do not own a vehicle, I very rarely fly, I have reduced the amount that I eat, I purchase small amounts of locally grown produce. I share the use of one spiral lightbulb, wash clothes by hand and hang them in the sun to dry. I do not patronize any in the medical profession nor use any of their poisons or their insurance. This is about the best I can do at this time, and I wager it is a fair enough amount comparatively. I may probably become one of those 80 year olds that RE felt should willingly go into that good night but probably having stuffed myself with antioxidants and vitamins and veggies for most of my life I will just wait for the nineties and to Hell with what anybody else thinks. As I have stated before, going out on the ice flow is painless and no big deal whenever I DECIDE TO MAKE THE CHOICE MYSELF. Scotch and Oxycodin are OK too and miasma from starvation is also painless if it should come to that. But not to worry. I am not leaving anytime soon voluntarily unless that ASSHOLE in the White House calls down the wrath of all the other nations upon us. And that is exactly why I would prefer to  be living somewhere else if I can manage it soon. Because in spite of everything, LIFE is and has been a glorious if precipitous gift for which I am eternally grateful. K
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 13, 2013, 08:53:48 PM
Quote
Because in spite of everything, LIFE is and has been a glorious if precipitous gift for which I am eternally grateful. K

It certainly has been a precious gift Karpatok, in spite of everything. Trying to stay around as long as possible as well.

" I would have written of me on my stone:
       I had a lover’s quarrel with the world.”


Robert Frost
Title: Re: Agelbert said
Post by: Eddie on June 13, 2013, 08:55:18 PM
And ANYONE advocating depopulation that remains silent when ANYBODY HERE talks about having a number of offspring that, if all humans do it, will cause a population INCREASE, is a hypocrite.

I knowingly chose to have more than the standard 2 offspring because I wanted more good, conscious, aware  people to be on the earth. Yes..more of MY people. I have no regrets. I am not a hypocrite. A bigot maybe, but not a hypocrite. I'm glad I did it. I think that's part of the problem, especially now. The best and brightest people have few or no children, and the ignorant masses reproduce like there is no tomorrow. It's a bit of a Catch-22, this "let's not have kids for the good of the planet" phenomenon.
Title: Re: Agelbert said
Post by: g on June 13, 2013, 09:20:07 PM
And ANYONE advocating depopulation that remains silent when ANYBODY HERE talks about having a number of offspring that, if all humans do it, will cause a population INCREASE, is a hypocrite.

I knowingly chose to have more than the standard 2 offspring because I wanted more good, conscious, aware  people to be on the earth. Yes..more of MY people. I have no regrets. I am not a hypocrite. A bigot maybe, but not a hypocrite. I'm glad I did it. I think that's part of the problem, especially now. The best and brightest people have few or no children, and the ignorant masses reproduce like there is no tomorrow. It's a bit of a Catch-22, this "let's not have kids for the good of the planet" phenomenon.

Hi Doc, It is a Catch 22 topic for sure. Have no answers or solutions, a brain TILT for me, just a few comments.

The ignorant might not be that ignorant by building a large family.  Their children could also have amongst them valued productive members that help solve our vast array of problems.

There are some who would place you in that category because of your large family, I wouldn't, but there are many who would.

Just Saying.  :icon_scratch: :-\
Title: Re: Agelbert said
Post by: Karpatok on June 13, 2013, 09:23:19 PM
And ANYONE advocating depopulation that remains silent when ANYBODY HERE talks about having a number of offspring that, if all humans do it, will cause a population INCREASE, is a hypocrite.

I knowingly chose to have more than the standard 2 offspring because I wanted more good, conscious, aware  people to be on the earth. Yes..more of MY people. I have no regrets. I am not a hypocrite. A bigot maybe, but not a hypocrite. I'm glad I did it. I think that's part of the problem, especially now. The best and brightest people have few or no children, and the ignorant masses reproduce like there is no tomorrow. It's a bit of a Catch-22, this "let's not have kids for the good of the planet" phenomenon.
Eddie, those are exactly the reasons why I had my two children who are now very caring responsible human beings. I participated in PEOPLE MAKING as Virginia Satir might have said. I made many mistakes as perhaps did my own parents but I would not have missed that for the world. If only, if only, the abandoned and abused ones could have had that care and concern. And there is nothing in MHO that can be done about that. I cannot, for example, go now and spend the rest of my life in Moldova caring for the infants that the Roma procreate so carelessly and throw away, the products of incest and alcohol. As I stated in the earlier post, this is the scheme as it has and is playing out. Though it breaks my heart, I did not make this happen, that responsibility belongs to the ONE they so adore to worship.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 13, 2013, 10:50:18 PM
And ANYONE advocating depopulation that remains silent when ANYBODY HERE talks about having a number of offspring that, if all humans do it, will cause a population INCREASE, is a hypocrite.

I knowingly chose to have more than the standard 2 offspring because I wanted more good, conscious, aware  people to be on the earth. Yes..more of MY people. I have no regrets. I am not a hypocrite. A bigot maybe, but not a hypocrite. I'm glad I did it. I think that's part of the problem, especially now. The best and brightest people have few or no children, and the ignorant masses reproduce like there is no tomorrow. It's a bit of a Catch-22, this "let's not have kids for the good of the planet" phenomenon.

Eddie,

It does not bother me in the least, that you have had four children (not that you need my support for that.) By what I understand of you, they are all good, sound, grounded people. I admit I do however cringe a little every time I hear a Christian who is otherwise a cornucopianist, who thinks we can go on consuming the resources of the earth the way we do indefinitely, as if God favors them in their wealth gleaned from the rape of the biosphere, speaking proudly of their brood of six or eight. I know of a blogger I much admire for his work speaking about the abuses of the police state, who is Christian, who has six kids, who is perpetually financially on the brink of dissolution, who otherwise seems to believe that if government got out of the way the world would be awash again with cheap oil.

Otherwise, I say people, whoever they are or whatever they believe, should have as many kids as they can support. Just be clear about the world they are born into, and the fact that resources are going to be harder and harder to come by, irrevocably, as long as those children are alive, and for every child after for the next two hundred years, probably.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 02:13:06 AM
Surly and GO,

As for my ambivalence about fast collapse, it's just a feeling. And you know how I feel about "feelings".. I feel they aren't worth talking about here, because they lead to non-objective, speculative, spurious arguments. I have no good evidence or counter-arguments to fast collapse in terms of finance, energy, environment, and I wouldn't be surprised if things turned South in earnest. Just saying, I have a vague feeling they may not for awhile.

Note that I'm talking about all-out Havoc here, not the clear economic, social, political, cultural, etc. declines that are already taking place across the world. 

Thank you introducing "justice."  Ultimately administration of justice depends on the theory that each individual is thus entitled, yes? And that such adminstration is possible.. As you note, there is plenty of evicence to suggest that theory does not measure up to practice. Banks and corporations wield far more power and enjoy greater privileges than mere human "persons."

Yes, we must first accept that all people are entitled to Justice. If perfect justice is not possible by human administration, it doesn't follow that human administration of justice is not a strict (even sacred) duty. Anything that is not just is unjust, so we can always promote more justice than injustice.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 02:42:38 AM
This is true, and it's depressing isn't it.  But what is the alternative?  What are you advocating Ashvin?  There's a good chance nature is going to take care of this for us.  Probably will actually.  So maybe the entire discussion about overpopulation is a non sequitur?  If I understand what a non sequitur is properly.

The alternative? The alternative is to NOT promote or practice eugenics. The discussion is not about over-population, it's about eugenics. If you guys don't like that term, then we can call it "a small # of people using direct force or the threat of force to determine the reproductive rights of a large # of people based on man-made (and therefore inherently flawed) criteria". I prefer the term eugenics, because it highlights the selfish EVIL that underlies such a mindset. No matter how many times someone claims it is for the ultimate benefit of humanity, we can rest assured it is motivated by pure selfishness.

One could argue that we have no option but to be selfish, based on theories of Neo-Darwinism, but that's an entirely different argument. One could argue about overpopulation, carrying capacity and all of that until the cows come home, but that's a different argument too. This discussion is not Malthus vs. Marx, it's Eugenics vs. No Eugenics. (at least my part in it)

To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

"It's not eugenics, it's sensible Darwinian selection. It's not about creating a better species, it's about weeding out 'greed' and creating sustainable society. It's not about impuning the beautiful, divine, sacred spirit of humanity, it's about cringing 'a little' at those 'cornucopianist' Christians with large families"

At least Eddie had the sense to admit he is a Bigot who believes "his people" need to outnumber the "ignorant masses".
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 02:59:21 AM
Well JD, I think I may be going soon enough without the voluntary extinction. I will leave that to my fellow slime on the downtown streets of Oakland.
Perhaps I should have said this explicitly, voluntary extinction is not about suicide, it's about not having kids.  Their motto is "live long and die out".
Quote
I do not own a vehicle, I very rarely fly, I have reduced the amount that I eat, I purchase small amounts of locally grown produce. I share the use of one spiral lightbulb, wash clothes by hand and hang them in the sun to dry. I do not patronize any in the medical profession nor use any of their poisons or their insurance. This is about the best I can do at this time, and I wager it is a fair enough amount comparatively.
Those are all wonderful things, K, and I commend you on them.  They are, however, only half the equation.  Everything you mentioned is about reducing your negative impact.  The problem with that is it is theoretically limited to 0, and suicide is about the only way to reach that.  But I was talking about a NET positive impact, doing MORE GOOD than harm.  There are things you can do that have a positive impact, and there is no theoretical limit (although, there definitely are diminishing returns).  Things on that list include building wildlife habitat, removing trash, planting trees, propagating native plant species, removing invasives, restoring wetlands, making compost... the list is only limited by your imagination and understanding.  That's the way out of the predicament we find ourselves in.  All the things we do to reduce our negative impact are very useful -- it's very hard to make up for flying down to the Caribbean to take a cruise -- but ultimately the focus needs to be on restoring our biosphere.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 03:05:01 AM

To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

Thanks for the Mathematical Analysis.  What is the +-10% you find non-equivocational?  ::)

Hit the points Watson.  Broad generalizations with specious mathematics don't cut it here on the Diner.  We all realize I think a good portion of the Population has a First Class Ticket to the Great Beyond already, even if they don't know it yet.  Monsta presents some of his ideas on how to handle that, so do I, and it is NOT Orkin Man, neither is it Eugenics.  Both you and Surly are pulling down Straw Man arguments that relate more to my personal opinion on what to do about Pigmen then what to do about Zombies.  EVERYBODY KNOWS I am all for an Orkin Man Solution for Pigmen.  I am NOT for an Orkin Man Solution for Zombies.  You are both conflating the issues, and it is confusing the argument.  In Surly's case, I think it is probably because he hasn't yet separated the problems in his head, in your case I think you are doing it deliberately.

Address the issues, Counselor.  Otherwise I hold you in Contempt of Court.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 03:20:59 AM
The alternative? The alternative is to NOT promote or practice eugenics. The discussion is not about over-population, it's about eugenics. If you guys don't like that term, then we can call it "a small # of people using direct force or the threat of force to determine the reproductive rights of a large # of people based on man-made (and therefore inherently flawed) criteria". I prefer the term eugenics, because it highlights the selfish EVIL that underlies such a mindset. No matter how many times someone claims it is for the ultimate benefit of humanity, we can rest assured it is motivated by pure selfishness.

One could argue that we have no option but to be selfish, based on theories of Neo-Darwinism, but that's an entirely different argument. One could argue about overpopulation, carrying capacity and all of that until the cows come home, but that's a different argument too. This discussion is not Malthus vs. Marx, it's Eugenics vs. No Eugenics. (at least my part in it)

To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

"It's not eugenics, it's sensible Darwinian selection. It's not about creating a better species, it's about weeding out 'greed' and creating sustainable society. It's not about impuning the beautiful, divine, sacred spirit of humanity, it's about cringing 'a little' at those 'cornucopianist' Christians with large families"

At least Eddie had the sense to admit he is a Bigot who believes "his people" need to outnumber the "ignorant masses".

Thank you, Ashvin.  My only quibble is if you look up the definition of eugenics, it says something to the effect of "the deliberate improvement of the human race through genetic selection".  So these tribal rites of passage can fall under the category, too.  What you describe is the moral hazard, that the process will be taken over by a small group for its own selfish purposes.  In the context of a small tribe with a rite of passage, this is not a problem, as everyone in the tribe agrees to the value.  But trying to do it on a global basis very much has the risk of being co-opted.  That's why the equivocation is dangerous.  If a substance can combust at an exponential rate, we call it explosive, and we handle it accordingly.  I'm just the kid telling the other kid with matches that maybe we shouldn't be playing with them next to the gasoline cans.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 03:36:26 AM
EVERYBODY KNOWS I am all for an Orkin Man Solution for Pigmen.  I am NOT for an Orkin Man Solution for Zombies.  You are both conflating the issues, and it is confusing the argument.  In Surly's case, I think it is probably because he hasn't yet separated the problems in his head, in your case I think you are doing it deliberately.
My issue is that I'm pretty sure at this point that the pigmen have settled on the Orkin Man solution for Zombies.  Anything you say can and will be used against you by the pigmen to further their agenda, so you have to be very, very explicit and not say anything that could be taken as supporting an Orkin Man solution for Zombies.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 03:37:30 AM
My only quibble is if you look up the definition of eugenics, it says something to the effect of "the deliberate improvement of the human race through genetic selection". 

That is an extremely broad definition of Eugenics, which goes well beyond even what Wikipedia defines as Eugenics.  From Wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

Quote
Eugenics is the applied science of the bio-social movement which advocates practices to improve the genetic composition of a population, usually a human population.[2][3]

It is a social philosophy advocating the improvement of human hereditary traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of more desired people and traits, and reduced reproduction of less desired people and traits.[4]

History

Main article: History of eugenics

Eugenics, as a modern concept, was originally developed by Francis Galton. Galton had read his cousin Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, which sought to explain the development of plant and animal species, and desired to apply it to humans. In 1883, one year after Darwin's death, Galton gave his research a name, Eugenics.[5] Throughout its recent history, eugenics remains a controversial concept.[6] As a social movement, eugenics reached its greatest popularity in the early decades of the 20th century. At this point in time, eugenics was practiced around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Many countries enacted[citation needed] various eugenics policies and programs, including: genetic screening, birth control, promoting differential birth rates, marriage restrictions, segregation (both racial segregation and segregation of the mentally ill from the rest of the population), compulsory sterilization, forced abortions or forced pregnancies and genocide. Most of these policies were later regarded as coercive and/or restrictive, and now few jurisdictions implement policies that are explicitly labeled as eugenic or unequivocally eugenic in substance...

Eugenics is a very modern concept, which had its genesis with Darwin and took hold in the late 19th Century, but has about ZERO to do with traditional Tribal Practices of Rites of Passage.

It is based on large scale social norms, none of which were present in small scale Tribal Societies.  Such societies HAVE to limit reproduction in some way, and to do so they choose practical tests which do this.  The tests are applied across the board to ALL Coming of Age Males, whether born to the Tribal Leader or to a lowly Beta Male.  This is NOT Eugenics as Wiki defines it, it is a form of basic Selection that the Tribe makes for Reproduction and it is applied fairly and across the board for all born to the tribe.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 03:42:38 AM
Anything you say can and will be used against you by the pigmen to further their agenda, so you have to be very, very explicit and not say anything that could be taken as supporting an Orkin Man solution for Zombies.

Understood.  I will be Hiring Watson to Defend me when I face the Court of the Inquisition.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 04:17:05 AM
My only quibble is if you look up the definition of eugenics, it says something to the effect of "the deliberate improvement of the human race through genetic selection". 
That is an extremely broad definition of Eugenics, which goes well beyond even what Wikipedia defines as Eugenics.

Eugenics is a very modern concept, which had its genesis with Darwin and took hold in the late 19th Century, but has about ZERO to do with traditional Tribal Practices of Rites of Passage.
Well, I'm from the "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" camp.  I don't give a damn about the how the concepts developed.  USDA Inspections arose out of germ theory and Kosher rules didn't, but they're both about food safety, and germs worked the same way 6000 years ago.

Tribal rites of passage are still a way of limiting who can reproduce and who can't.  But even if they aren't eugenics because they don't involve "large scale social norms", what was proposed here as a way to limit population globally does, so in that way is not like tribal rites of passage, thus the proposal is eugenic.

Personally I draw the line around the Amish.  They grow their own food, they don't take anything from the government, they put their kids to work as soon as possible, and they don't try to keep the weak alive through modern medical care.  I am opposed to any solution which directly limits their right to have as many kids as they want.  Now, I could see refusing to let them have more land or to accept their young adults who don't want to be baptized and follow the Ordnung, so they'd have to make adjustments, but I'd let them decide how to deal with it.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 04:28:10 AM

To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

Thanks for the Mathematical Analysis.  What is the +-10% you find non-equivocational?  ::)

10% was probably generous... more like .01% in this latest comment.

Quote
Hit the points Watson.  Broad generalizations with specious mathematics don't cut it here on the Diner.  We all realize I think a good portion of the Population has a First Class Ticket to the Great Beyond already, even if they don't know it yet.  Monsta presents some of his ideas on how to handle that, so do I, and it is NOT Orkin Man, neither is it Eugenics.  Both you and Surly are pulling down Straw Man arguments that relate more to my personal opinion on what to do about Pigmen then what to do about Zombies.  EVERYBODY KNOWS I am all for an Orkin Man Solution for Pigmen.  I am NOT for an Orkin Man Solution for Zombies.  You are both conflating the issues, and it is confusing the argument.  In Surly's case, I think it is probably because he hasn't yet separated the problems in his head, in your case I think you are doing it deliberately.

The burden is on you to show how monsta's "ideas on how to handle" population issues, which you presumably endorse, do not fit within a CFS definition of eugenics, seeing as how they REEK of the philosophy underlying eugenics from TOP to BOTTOM, THROUGH and THROUGH.

I have not once mentioned your Orkin Man solution for Pigmen in this thread, and I never said anything about you wanting to wipe out zombies, so I'm not conflating anything with anything, and this is just another distraction by you from the main issue.

Once again, this discussion is about your stance on population control and species improvement policies, otherwise known as EUGENICS, as expounded by monsta several times on this thread.

I object to all of your Orkin Man arguments, defenses, rationalizations and equivocations as IRRELEVANT and INADMISSIBLE in the case-in-chief about... that's right... EUGENICS.

Please wake up and honestly confront the realistic implications of the views you promote on your website!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 04:38:48 AM

Personally I draw the line around the Amish.  They grow their own food, they don't take anything from the government, they put their kids to work as soon as possible, and they don't try to keep the weak alive through modern medical care.  I am opposed to any solution which directly limits their right to have as many kids as they want.  Now, I could see refusing to let them have more land or to accept their young adults who don't want to be baptized and follow the Ordnung, so they'd have to make adjustments, but I'd let them decide how to deal with it.

The Amish Squirrel Out of a lot of reproductive problems because Excess Amish can be pitched out into the Industrial Economy.  Only a certain number Inherit the Farm of course, what happens to the 2nd or 3rd born Son of an Amish?

This of course is why there is always a good amount of dissention occurring in the Amish Community, which occassionally you do hear about.  Recently there was a big to-do about Beard Cutting (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/us/amish-sect-leader-gets-15-years-in-beard-cutting-attacks.html?_r=0) going on with them by disaffected Amish.

Quote
The leader of a dissident Amish sect was sentenced on Friday to 15 years in prison for a series of bizarre beard- and hair-cutting attacks on other Ohio Amish that drew national attention.

Members of Mr. Mullet’s community of about 135, who stood by him throughout the trial.

Samuel Mullet Sr., 67, the leader, was sentenced in Federal District Court in Cleveland for coordinating assaults that prosecutors argued were motivated by religious intolerance. Fifteen of his followers, including six women, were given lesser sentences, ranging from one year and one day to seven years.

The breakaway Amish were convicted last year of multiple counts of conspiracy and hate crimes, which carry harsher punishment than simple assault.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 14, 2013, 04:48:43 AM
Well, I'm from the "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" camp.  I don't give a damn about the how the concepts developed.  USDA Inspections arose out of germ theory and Kosher rules didn't, but they're both about food safety, and germs worked the same way 6000 years ago.

Tribal rites of passage are still a way of limiting who can reproduce and who can't.  But even if they aren't eugenics because they don't involve "large scale social norms", what was proposed here as a way to limit population globally does, so in that way is not like tribal rites of passage, thus the proposal is eugenic.

Personally I draw the line around the Amish.  They grow their own food, they don't take anything from the government, they put their kids to work as soon as possible, and they don't try to keep the weak alive through modern medical care.  I am opposed to any solution which directly limits their right to have as many kids as they want.  Now, I could see refusing to let them have more land or to accept their young adults who don't want to be baptized and follow the Ordnung, so they'd have to make adjustments, but I'd let them decide how to deal with it.

In a post-collapse world it unlikely there will be the energy to push a globalist solution to any problem. As people lose the energy that comes from fossil fuels governments will become more decentralised and they will not be as big. Couple this with the fact populations will be considerably lower and the amount of available wealth in the world would be dramatically reduced so what you will get is less potential for corruption.

In any case it unlikely every local government across the board would promote population control, some will others won't but what we can be sure is there will be no central authority controlling this process. All decisions will be made on a local level because that would be the maximum capacity a government could exercise and project their power. Notice how I always mentioned that carrying capacity must be determined at a local level? I said that because I know it would not be possible to stretch this dynamic beyond a relatively small area. There will not be the energy to form larger more complex government institutions so arguing about this possibility and all the pitfalls that entails becomes a red herring. Decisions will be made at a local level and it is likely multiple solutions will be tried across the globe with varying degrees of skill.

I would still argue against calling this eugenics because if this argument is made against this form of population control then you can pretty much say any form of population control is eugenics with a very loose definition. For example you can consider that people in the middle ages also practised eugenics as populations were controlled by the fact that mating rights were regulated through marriage. People could not have children unless they were married and people that did were shunned. Also in that dynamic were those that were deemed unsuitable for marriage and by extension reproduction were often turned into nuns or priests who were explicitly forbidden to have children. This whole institution of marriage was even controlled and abused by the elites of the world to further their own ends, privilege was bestowed if only you came from a certain bloodline and you could only get to certain places if you married in. However marriage and the selection of a marriage partner was closely controlled by the head of families who wielded the power. Marriage was a political tool. This sounds like a duck and quacks like a duck as you stated but I wouldn't class this as eugenics even though an argument could be made it is on the fact of the loose definition given. If we use that definition we could say that eugenics has always been present but it is merely hidden. I don't buy this argument.

I feel the main qualifier to class a process as such is if the explicit motive is to improve the human race in some fashion. I will allow that this explicit could be instigated in a coercive manner but the qualifier remains the enforcers of this law must do it with the intentions of making humans better. If population control is purely done to insure society remains within its local carrying capacity then that is NOT eugenics that is population control. In any case the implicit assumption I keep seeing is if no measures of population control are made then somehow there will be no population problem and the issue of overshoot simply disappears in some fashion. I think this assumption is false and you will get overshoot. The only argument that can be made is the problem of overshoot is the price to pay to maintaining the freedom to mating rights for all members of society. If you value reproduction over the environment and even quality of life of people then fair enough but I just feel it is important to understand the consequences of not enforcing some means of population control. I also feel if we come clean about controlling populations the process can be done in a more fair and just manner. Population control is likely to happen even if it is openly frowned upon when resources get scarce and in such a case it will take on a form that is far less fair.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 04:49:26 AM

I object to all of your Orkin Man arguments, defenses, rationalizations and equivocations as IRRELEVANT and INADMISSIBLE in the case-in-chief about... that's right... EUGENICS.

Please wake up and honestly confront the realistic implications of the views you promote on your website!

 :emthdown:  You are in Contempt of Court!

Bailiff, take the counselor to the Holding Pen to cool his heels for a while and reconsider his arguments!  :icon_mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/v/I3tKLD615DQ?feature=player_detailpage

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 14, 2013, 06:36:01 AM
I find it interesting that a thread started about zombies ended up being about eugenics :icon_scratch:

I get what Monsta is trying to accomplish by population control.  His intentions are good.  Like I said earlier, he just wants to limit suffering for humans.  How can he be faulted for that? 

I personally would not want to live in a China, or anywhere where I'm told if I can reproduce and then whether I can keep the baby once it's born.  Some problems are really predicaments with no solutions, and the problem of overshooting the Earth's carrying capacity is one of those predicaments with no real anthropomorphic solutions.  Nature takes care of overpopulation in every case (cept maybe war...which is just human nature...).  I think having a conversation about eugenics is pointless and more derisive than anything else.  Nobody wants to live in an overpopulated world...I think we can all agree on that. 

GM and I decided to have children because we love each other and that's what humans who love each other do...they have children together.  This is a natural process.  I don't know if we'll have another one...but we both want another one.  At this point we've replaced each other and have not added to overpopulation as we will both die eventually.  But going down that road is jut more population control talk.  It's okay to have two but not three?   :icon_scratch:

Nature does bat last.  Utopia is not a real place and it will never be socially engineered.  Humans are flawed and so destined for flawed civilizations.  They rise and fall and this is the nature of man and his social creations.  During the falling process zombies are reality.  Simply put, zombies are those hypnotized by the hologram...that's it.  They aren't useless eaters, or any other political definition of the term.  They are simply humans hypnotized by the hologram.  So please, stop conflating and rewriting the definition to suit your own agenda.  Nobody here is advocating eugenics, or genocide, or suicide, or any other such nonsense. 

The purpose of this thread was to explore the topic of zombies (which I'm the thread drift master so I can't really complain). 

My point, is that in the face of hard fast collapse realities, if one wants to survive, one has to be clear about certain things.  Zombies are mostly docile morons when law and order exists like it does now.  However, in times of chaos where law and order dissipates (post-katrina anyone?)  zombies become extremely dangerous because they are reckless and shell shocked by having the hologram shut down temporarily.  Zombies freak out when the hologram blinks off.  They are dangerous because of this potential and should be dealt with accordingly. 

Are they less of a person than I, or any other collapse aware, hologram free individual?  No, they are not, they still have the same Buddha nature as you...Agelbert, Ashvin, Eddie, and Surly  :laugh:  Buddha nature or not, if you aren't preparing personally to feed all of the zombies that come your way during a fast collapse scenario than you are in denial and a hypocrite.  If you don't have plans to feed all of the zombies around you then you better have plans to either end it for yourself, or perish with the zombie hordes. 

We all know the world is overpopulated (no human solution for that predicament...sorry to be the bearer of bad news).  We all know civilization is dependent on fossil fuels which are a limited resource.  We all know what this means for the 7 billion of us on the planet.  Zombies only matter in a fast collapse scenario (although as Katrina showed us, there is such a thing as a local fast collapse). 

So imagine you are a resident of New Orleans, and you got trapped in your home or could otherwise not be evacuated.  Along comes four 20 year old men, hungry, hot, tired, sick from dehydration/starvation, and armed with crude weapons such as say a baseball bat, pipe, chain, and maybe a knife.  You have food and water because you planned for such an eventuality because you are not a zombie.   You also have an elderly family member, maybe an uncle and his child, and your own spouse with your couple of kids.  The uncle is off scavenging supplies maybe, and you are the only capable adult present.  These thugs are making no secret of the fact that they're about to fuck you up for your supplies.  These are zombies.  What are you going to do?  Let them take your shit and therefore allow your kids to become hungry and dehydrated?  Nobody here would just lay down and let those thugs take their shit.

I wouldn't.  I'd fuck their zombie asses up if that's what they decided for themselves.  To protect my family and my tribe.  Zombies are potentially very dangerous in the unpredictable and collapse prone world that we are living in.  I don't give two shits about egalitarianism.  Our world is rapidly taking away such luxuries from us.  Accepting zombies is just a psychological tactic for survival in a collapse laden world. 

Zombies are about collapse...not eugenics, or overpopulation for that matter. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 14, 2013, 07:23:16 AM
You can't really prep enough to protect yourself against criminal thugs, who are likely to try to kill you while you sleep as their "Plan A".

I mean, you can do the stuff James Wesley Rawles talks about if you want to go all out for security. But I don't see myself having a 24 hr watch to keep out bad guys. It might come to that, but I hope that fifty miles of hot dusty road between me and the city might help a great deal. And that I'm surrounded by large ranches on all sides, with limited egress to my property.

But I have no compunction about dispatching criminals who mean harm to me and mine. Everyone has a contribution to make...for some that contribution might be to become compost.  ;D

I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I'd much prefer to share what I have to the extent I'm able, and send out the kind of vibrations into the universe I want to get back.

Right now I have problems with the logistics of feeding myself in a SHTF scenario. I will tackle that problem before I worry about having to shoot people to protect my garden.

Question for you and WHD and JD. I have been trying to grow heirloom tomatoes...but I have much better production from the one hybrid transplant I put in than the 10 or 15 various heirloom strains. The plants are awesome,nearly four feet tall, but not much fruit and not many blooms. I've seen products that are said to promote blooms. Any arcane knowledge you guys can share in this area?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 14, 2013, 08:06:28 AM
To clarify..I don't have 10 or 15 heirloom strains...just three or four strains, but 10 or 15 plants total. I've harvested maybe twenty or thirty tomatoes off the hybrid already, and I only have a few small green tomatoes on the heirlooms.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 14, 2013, 08:53:50 AM
Quote
Question for you and WHD and JD. I have been trying to grow heirloom tomatoes...but I have much better production from the one hybrid transplant I put in than the 10 or 15 various heirloom strains. The plants are awesome,nearly four feet tall, but not much fruit and not many blooms. I've seen products that are said to promote blooms. Any arcane knowledge you guys can share in this area?

Eddie,

Such is the nature of heirlooms. They are more interested in producing viable seed, than making an abundance of fruit. Hybrid seed is inconsequential, and so the vibrancy of both parent plants is invested in vigorous growth. I doubt though you are saying 1 hybrid = 10-15 heirloom in production. My experience is 1-2 or 1-3. It could be too, the heirlooms you have planted were bred for cooler climates.

For natural means of increasing blooms, if you do any fishing, save the left-overs after freezing and bury them between plants, or a few inches below the tomato before you plant it.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 14, 2013, 09:04:45 AM
Quote
To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

Nothing "frank" about that statement, Ashvin. First of all, I don't equivocate - I come right out and say what I really think. Contrarily, you are saying 90% of what flows out out of my fingers here to be designed to conceal my true motives, which you apparently are the only one here capable of ascertaining. So get to it, punk ass. Lay it out. You want to back up that statement with some fact, or are you just going to let that slander hang?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 14, 2013, 09:17:31 AM
No, I literally bought one largish pot of hybrids (several plants in one pot) that had been started very early in the greenhouse, got it in the ground in mid-March. The heirlooms are also transplants, but the ones I planted in March didn't so well, had some late near freezes, so I planted more in April.

But that one hybrid has given me 100% of my tomato production so far (it did have small green tomatoes already on it when I bought it). I'm guessing it might have been planted as early as December?

I'm beginning to think I'm going to have to start all my tomatoes in the green house in mid-winter to get any production. As of right now i don't have a functional greenhouse, so I'm going to have to work on that. I'm guessing I have a window of 30 to 60 more days to see if i get anything off the heirlooms, and that's only because the summer has been very mild so far.

Thanks for the advice on the fish thing. I'll try it next time I plant. I should have put this on it's own thread. Please return to your regularly scheduled eugenics and zombie topics.

My take on eugenics is that humans are far too emotional to make reasonable decisions regarding rules for reproducing, unless coerced..and I for one, am not the least bit interested in coercing anybody to do anything.

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 14, 2013, 09:52:57 AM
Quote
My take on eugenics is that humans are far too emotional to make reasonable decisions regarding rules for reproducing, unless coerced..and I for one, am not the least bit interested in coercing anybody to do anything.

I would add that humans are also often FAR too rational to make reasonable decisions about population control, i.e. the Final Solution et al. Keeping in mind too that John Mayard Keynes was long time president of the English Society of Eugenics. And as RE pointed out, the Rockefeller family's enthusiasm for such thinking.

As to the eugenics thing, if over-shoot leads to a speculated reduction of the human population to 5% of current population, I fail to see how there could possibly be anything like a "need" to decide who gets to breed and how. And if it comes to that, the biosphere is likely to be so denuded, that over-shoot is unlikely any time for the next few thousand years. After that, if people over-shoot again, if they can, I suppose that is the way of things. Too bad.

That said, I am AGAINST anything like a political solution to breeding, or "improving" the human race. As clearly only fiends rise politically, political fiends would be the ones who are making the decisions and enforcing them, about what characteristics are desirable. Which "desirable" characteristics defined by said political fiends seem ever to spell socio-pathy.

The native peoples of this continent, in North America, didn't seem to have much of a problem maintaining population equilibrium. That was a function of their belief generally that everything is connected, and all the world is also spirit. Our over-shoot is a function largely of our technological ingenuity, coupled with a belief that all the world is matter only. Science has realized that all the world is energy, while maintaining that everything is separate, and while denying spirit. So it seems to me, how does humanity balance its technological ingenuity, while cultivating a belief in connection, and in spirit, as native peoples had when white folk got here?

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 10:04:58 AM
I feel the main qualifier to class a process as such is if the explicit motive is to improve the human race in some fashion. I will allow that this explicit could be instigated in a coercive manner but the qualifier remains the enforcers of this law must do it with the intentions of making humans better. If population control is purely done to insure society remains within its local carrying capacity then that is NOT eugenics that is population control. In any case the implicit assumption I keep seeing is if no measures of population control are made then somehow there will be no population problem and the issue of overshoot simply disappears in some fashion. I think this assumption is false and you will get overshoot. The only argument that can be made is the problem of overshoot is the price to pay to maintaining the freedom to mating rights for all members of society. If you value reproduction over the environment and even quality of life of people then fair enough but I just feel it is important to understand the consequences of not enforcing some means of population control. I also feel if we come clean about controlling populations the process can be done in a more fair and just manner. Population control is likely to happen even if it is openly frowned upon when resources get scarce and in such a case it will take on a form that is far less fair.

Why would you want to make sure a community remain within a certain carrying capacity?

Why would you want to make sure certain people are not within this community, such as "greedy" people or "sociopaths" or whoever?

Clearly, the reason is because you believe these things lead to a more optimal state for humanity, a better state for you and others than we currently have. And you could be absolutely right... but that's irrelevant. Your motive is still to "improve the human race in some fashion", and your means to accomplish that motive is through some form of top-down restriction of fundamental rights via artificial criteria imposed on a generalized population (let's say a few thousand people).

The BIG problem is who establishes this criteria and applies it? How do you identify the "greedy" and "sociopathic" individuals? How do you determine what the local carrying capacity is and who must sacrifice their reproductive rights to make sure the community stays within it? What will you do to enforce the rules and to punish those who break them? Banishment of individuals and families? Sterilization? Killing of "excess" children? What safeguards will be in place to make sure the whole process doesn't get corrupted and deviate from its original goals?

You may be thinking all of this is hypothetical and something not to be taken too seriously until much later, but there have been and will continue to be people who have similar schemes, who believe they are in the best interests of humanity and are ready, willing and perhaps even able to implement them in the near future. These are real ideologies with REAL consequences. I agree with you that's it better to think about them now rather than in the midst of chaos when such "solutions" will be officially proposed, or after the dust settles and people need to figure out how to reestablish their communities, but that's about the extent of our agreement on this issue... thinking about it NOW, I see "BAD IDEA" written all over it.

So to be clear, I have no problem with the mere fact that you have suggested this idea. I have a problem with you and others not being completely forthright about what we're actually talking about here, given the extremely serious implications, and I have a bigger problem with the idea itself.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 10:30:17 AM
Quote
To be a bit more frank, I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS.

Nothing "frank" about that statement, Ashvin. First of all, I don't equivocate - I come right out and say what I really think. Contrarily, you are saying 90% of what flows out out of my fingers here to be designed to conceal my true motives, which you apparently are the only one here capable of ascertaining. So get to it, punk ass. Lay it out. You want to back up that statement with some fact, or are you just going to let that slander hang?

I didn't say a THING about your "true motives". I said you were equivocating in a recent comment, and I gave an example. Maybe you didn't intend to equivocate, but that's what it looked like to me.

Quote from: WHD
It does not bother me in the least, that you have had four children (not that you need my support for that.) By what I understand of you, they are all good, sound, grounded people. I admit I do however cringe a little every time I hear a Christian who is otherwise a cornucopianist, who thinks we can go on consuming the resources of the earth the way we do indefinitely, as if God favors them in their wealth gleaned from the rape of the biosphere, speaking proudly of their brood of six or eight.

...

Otherwise, I say people, whoever they are or whatever they believe, should have as many kids as they can support. Just be clear about the world they are born into, and the fact that resources are going to be harder and harder to come by, irrevocably, as long as those children are alive, and for every child after for the next two hundred years, probably

So does it bother you if the family having children don't seem like "good, sound, grounded people" to YOU? What about families that have children YOU don't believe they can support? What if the family is not clear about the world their children is being born into?

All of that implies equivocation to me, because the issue is whether there should EVER be a situation in which ANY conditions/restrictions are placed on reproductive rights, thereby impugning the divine, beautiful, sacred, etc. nature of what it means to be human.

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 14, 2013, 11:08:16 AM

Quote
I didn't say a THING about your "true motives". I said you were equivocating in a recent comment, and I gave an example.

I'll say it again, as I have said many times before, you have little idea what you have said, and no compunction whatever in contradicting yourself to cover your ass, even with the evidence readily available for anyone to see. "90% equivocating BS" In EACH comment, you say one minute. Than you say equivocation in ONE comment. And, WHAT EXAMPLE?


Quote
So does it bother you if the family having children don't seem like "good, sound, grounded people" to YOU? What about families that have children YOU don't believe they can support? What if the family is not clear about the world their children is being born into?

All of that implies equivocation to me, because the issue is whether there should EVER be a situation in which ANY conditions/restrictions are placed on reproductive rights, thereby impugning the divine, beautiful, sacred, etc. nature of what it means to be human.

If I made an error in that statement you take as such equivocation, it was that i said people SHOULD have as many people as they can support. I should have just said CAN have as many babies as they want, whatever your finances, whatever you believe, whatever your circumstances - it doesn't matter one wit to me. But in case that isn't clear enough for you, I stated it clearly enough in a follow-up comment:

Quote
I would add that humans are also often FAR too rational to make reasonable decisions about population control, i.e. the Final Solution et al. Keeping in mind too that John Mayard Keynes was long time president of the English Society of Eugenics. And as RE pointed out, the Rockefeller family's enthusiasm for such thinking.

As to the eugenics thing, if over-shoot leads to a speculated reduction of the human population to 5% of current population, I fail to see how there could possibly be anything like a "need" to decide who gets to breed and how. And if it comes to that, the biosphere is likely to be so denuded, that over-shoot is unlikely any time for the next few thousand years. After that, if people over-shoot again, if they can, I suppose that is the way of things. Too bad.

That said, I am AGAINST anything like a political solution to breeding, or "improving" the human race. As clearly only fiends rise politically, political fiends would be the ones who are making the decisions and enforcing them, about what characteristics are desirable. Which "desirable" characteristics defined by said political fiends seem ever to spell socio-pathy.

The native peoples of this continent, in North America, didn't seem to have much of a problem maintaining population equilibrium. That was a function of their belief generally that everything is connected, and all the world is also spirit. Our over-shoot is a function largely of our technological ingenuity, coupled with a belief that all the world is matter only. Science has realized that all the world is energy, while maintaining that everything is separate, and while denying spirit. So it seems to me, how does humanity balance its technological ingenuity, while cultivating a belief in connection, and in spirit, as native peoples had when white folk got here?


So if that isn't clear enough for you:

BREED LIKE RABBITS. HAVE AS MANY BABIES AS YOU WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just pull your head out of the sand, and THINK about infinite growth, infinite progress, infinite consumption, on a finite planet.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 14, 2013, 11:57:38 AM
I'll say it again, as I have said many times before, you have little idea what you have said, and no compunction whatever in contradicting yourself to cover your ass, even with the evidence readily available for anyone to see. "90% equivocating BS" In EACH comment, you say one minute. Than you say equivocation in ONE comment. And, WHAT EXAMPLE?

And you have a persistent desire to nitpick trivial distinctions in order to avoid the ACTUAL POINT being made in my comments. Even IF you were right, who cares whether I meant every comment on this thread or just recent comments or just ONE comment, or whether the exact words I used were the right ones? You understood just as well as everyone else who read the comment the basic point I was making about equivocation on this issue.

That being said, you aren't right about this and need to read more carefully.

Quote
I find 90%+ of each recent comment by monsta, RE, WHD to be equivocating BS

... (example) It's not about impuning the beautiful, divine, sacred spirit of humanity, it's about cringing 'a little' at those 'cornucopianist' Christians with large families


Quote
If I made an error in that statement you take as such equivocation, it was that i said people SHOULD have as many people as they can support. I should have just said CAN have as many babies as they want, whatever your finances, whatever you believe, whatever your circumstances - it doesn't matter one wit to me. But in case that isn't clear enough for you, I stated it clearly enough in a follow-up comment:

LOL, a follow up comment posted after my comment about equivocation... I guess I was supposed to predict that?

Yes, you should have used CAN and left off the qualifier of "as they can support" if you wanted to be more unequivocal about it, along with most other parts of the comment.

But whatever, now you have been unequivocal about your lack of support for anything resembling monsta's proposal... so we agree. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 04:40:41 PM

Why would you want to make sure a community remain within a certain carrying capacity?

To insure that the 7th Generation down the line still has a livable environment maybe?

Short sighted "Live for Today" psychology permeates Industrial Culture, and "Going Forth and Multiplying" has had some mighty bad consequences to it here, so this was not exactly good advice from Genesis, eh?

Quote from:  Genesis 9:7
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”

"Teeming on" per the instructions of the Judeo-Christian God is precisely what we have done, and that sure had some nasty Blowback to it, now didn't it?  God didn't KNOW IN ADVANCE that by ordering his Human Creation to follow this really STUPID Policy they would end up consuming everything ELSE He created?  Talk about setting the Kill Switch on Humanity right from the Get-Go!

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 14, 2013, 05:04:17 PM

Why would you want to make sure a community remain within a certain carrying capacity?

To insure that the 7th Generation down the line still has a livable environment maybe?

Short sighted "Live for Today" psychology permeates Industrial Culture, and "Going Forth and Multiplying" has had some mighty bad consequences to it here, so this was not exactly good advice from Genesis, eh?

Quote from:  Genesis 9:7
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”

"Teeming on" per the instructions of the Judeo-Christian God is precisely what we have done, and that sure had some nasty Blowback to it, now didn't it?  God didn't KNOW IN ADVANCE that by ordering his Human Creation to follow this really STUPID Policy they would and up consuming everything ELSE He created?  Talk about setting the Kill Switch on Humanity right from the Get-Go!

RE
Well, You have certainly expressed the point more succinctly than I have RE. As I have been saying right along, what kind of a God would set that up in advance? Is that what you would call a "benevolent god"? And who would worship such a god? A fallen angel? A Devil Worshiper?
Title: Ashvin said
Post by: agelbert on June 14, 2013, 05:09:53 PM
Quote
I prefer the term eugenics, because it highlights the selfish EVIL that underlies such a mindset. No matter how many times someone claims it is for the ultimate benefit of humanity, we can rest assured it is motivated by pure selfishness.

One could argue that we have no option but to be selfish, based on theories of Neo-Darwinism, but that's an entirely different argument. One could argue about overpopulation, carrying capacity and all of that until the cows come home, but that's a different argument too. This discussion is not Malthus vs. Marx, it's Eugenics vs. No Eugenics.

YES! Exactly!

And you know what, they just DON'T WANT TO GO THERE. I think RE is pretty clear where he stands and I respect him for making no bones about it.

But I can't shake the drumbeat of fortress mentality breeding an 'us versus them' mindset HERE. That is a necessary denigration/demonization modus operandi precursor to "justifiable" genocide or murder.

Eddie is more realistic and down to earth abut human frailty. That's good. He is even admitting a level of bigotry by assuming that HIS contribution to society is somehow BETTER than, for example, mine. ??? I am a little older and DECIDED that, even though I'm pretty smart and consider myself an asset to society, I made a conscious DECISION on the basis of the HUMAN RACE (I was an ATHEIST at the time I did that, WHD) to STOP INCREASING the population of the earth by limiting myself to two.

Assuming that YOUR brood is somehow superior or better for the world is unscientific. Even genius mentalities have SELDOM come from the marriage of geniuses (idiot savants or mongoloids can result but by and large their children are AVERAGE). Those are the FACTS.

We also know, as Eddie said, that humans are IRRATIONAL about offspring count in view of the present sad facts of population pressures and limited resources. Wrapping the reproduction issue in emotional terms is irrational. Love is a function mainly of hormones and boredom. It's been proven over and over again SCIENTIFICALLY. No woman is THE ONE for another man.

From a scientific point of you, the NET pressure of a species on resources doesn't have BEANS to do with the low class breeders ruining the gene pool and the high class breeders dying off. That's just another giant dodge of the facts born of selfishness, not rational thought.

LD stated this was NOT about eugenics or overpopulation but about "zombies".  :icon_mrgreen: IRONY ALERT.

The WHOLE POINT of my questioning LD's definition of a "zombie" is based on this logic, one that you, Ashvin, have pointed out and warned about:

A) Doomstead Diners agree the world is OVERPOPULATED.

B) They also agree the 1% are bad guys
.
C) HOWEVER, they AGREE with the 1% that the world is OVERPOPULATED. ???

D) Doomstead Diners understand the world is running out of resources and Homo SAP is harming the biosphere.

C) They learn how to a survive a biosphere attack on Homo SAP through permaculture and plan to REPOPULATE the planet with the "good" versions of gaia loving and respecting Homo SAP.

D) Doomstead Diners SLAM anyone questioning the 1% propaganda out there pushing depopulation. They pull out the hard stats about how overpopulated the world is at the idiot that dares to question the threat to gaia of human overpopulation.

E) Then they celebrate THEIR group's reproductive efforts as if item "D" didn't have JACK SHIT to do with them.

My BRAIN GOES TILT! I celebrate the love for a new treasure from God and those celebrating with me CONTINUE to claim the world needs to be depopulated for the sake of gaia.

And then I'M THE HYPOCRITE!

And, I'm unrealistic because I WILL try to help LD if he cracks his pelvis or RE if he loses his legs.

I WILL try to negotiate with any and all comers and trust in God that we can work things out. I DO NOT assume that sharing leads to the death of a community because "you were stupid and gave what you shouldn't have". YES, that can happen. BUT, most of the time that is a statistical outlier! To base your entire future behavior with strangers in need on the premise that you will NOT share is PURE SELFISHNESS.

I see a WEALTH of "it's okay for THE ENLIGHTENED ONES" to be fruitful and multiply but the "ZOMBIES" (be they the 1% or the gophers for them) are NOT entitled to further fuck up the planet with their reproductive, resource consuming piggery.  ::)

And it gets BETTER.

We just want to dance among summer sunflowers with our children in flower festooned clothing, smiles all around and guns nearby to off the zombies that want our stuff. It's us or them, period. No nuance. If we don't have enough to share, tough shit for the zombie. There's ALWAYS going to be MORE zombies than "we enlightened few" so we must harden our hearts for the children's sake and "defend" our STUFF!!

You Christians have this pie in the sky stupid idea that "God" will provide and that has caused most of the problems we have today. You are NAIVE, UNREALISTIC, HYPOCRITICAL and COWARDLY to think conscience driven NUANCE has any value in a post collapse scenario. Didn't they teach you dumb Christians the 10 people in a boat adrift story (Thank you, RAND CORPORATION  :evil4:) in EVERY GRADE SCHOOL in the USA since about 1975? [ It is taught to American children BEFORE they can think critically - that was the idea of using game theory to produce conscience free killers. :evil4: I have written about that here before.] Hey, when there ain't enough FOOD, it's not just OKAY to use the weak as bait or throw them overboard to extend the food supply, IT'S YOUR DUTY to the STRONG!

All the above is 100% WRONG, UNETHICAL and leads to GENOCIDE WITHOUT REMORSE!

They don't see it, Ashvin. It seems we Christians are the bad guys here. The "Christians" that broke the word of God and trashed the planet for the sake of greed are what these fine people think a God Fearing Christian IS. Too bad.

Thanks for trying, Ashvin. They just do not want to DO serious introspection about the DANGER of "Star Chamber" type thinking that is brandished about here sometimes as a joke and sometimes not.

George Bush, our recent war loving president claimed he was a Christian but he WASN'T.

He also famously claimed his base was composed of the HAVES and HAVE MORES.
He was loyal to them and did absolutely everything he could to make sure THEY did whatever the fuck they wanted while NOBODY ELSE had that privilege. He considered THEM the "ENLIGHTENED ONES".

He also said, "I DON"T DO NUANCE".

The people of the earth love to simplify and stereotype other humans that surround them. It's easier. It lacks nuance. IT results in HORRENDOUS UNJUSTICES commited by well meaning people that just started out wanting to "take care of their own".

"OUR OWN" ARE THE ENTIRE FUCKING BIOSPHERE! Of course you don't let a lion in your living room but you must be guided in your relations with fellow humans and fellow creatures with NUANCE.  Every single situation has many, many variables. Life is NOT a Gregory Peck Western.

When my brother in law Jon Adair (a dentist married to my sister for about 20 years at the time) was drowning in some huge surf rip tide, I remembered my conversation with him not 15 minutes before. I said, "It looks kind of rough out there and you aren't feeling well today". Jon was 6'3", powerfully built and an expert scuba diver. He said, "I'll be alright".
NOW, according to the "10 people in a boat adrift on the sea" empire propaganda exercise we have all been taught , this DUMB FUCK refused valid advice so FUCK HIM. He was up for the Darwin DESELECTION natural culling award! IF I went out there I had a MUCH better than even chance of drowning. :-\

But, you know what? As a Christian, I just didn't think I could live with myself if I didn't try. I accepted the high probability of my death as the breaks of the game. I wrote about that terrible day on the beach here. I don't remember where the post is buried here.

I managed, barely, to survive.

Jon drowned. We managed to get his body in and I started CPR. My sister (a nurse) was working his lungs while I worked his chest. We worked for about 20 minutes and he just kept getting bluer and bluer. Finally we gave up as the ambulance arrived. I slammed his chest diaphragm area with my fist and screamed, "COME ON, JON!". He was gone.

What I did was the RIGHT THING TO DO. And I didn't even get along too well with Jon, for that matter. He was a bit of an establishment greedy prick. Some might even have called him a .... ;)



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 05:16:34 PM
Quote
My take on eugenics is that humans are far too emotional to make reasonable decisions regarding rules for reproducing, unless coerced..and I for one, am not the least bit interested in coercing anybody to do anything.

I would add that humans are also often FAR too rational to make reasonable decisions about population control, i.e. the Final Solution et al. Keeping in mind too that John Mayard Keynes was long time president of the English Society of Eugenics. And as RE pointed out, the Rockefeller family's enthusiasm for such thinking.

More Famous Eugenics Supporters:

Winston Churchill, Margaret Sanger, Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, Norman Haire, Havelock Ellis, Theodore Roosevelt, George Bernard Shaw,  John Harvey Kellogg, Linus Pauling, Woodrow Wilson, Alexander Graham Bell, John D. Rockefeller, Charles Davenport, Lewis Terman and Sidney Webb.  Let's not forget Uncle Adolf either.  ::)

A virtual List of Illuminati in here.  I suspect if you wandered around Bilderberg, you would find quite a few Modern Day Eugenics supporters now as well.

What is being conflated here is that Eugenics and Rites of Passage are one in the same thing, and they are not.  Eugenics uses artificially developed ideas about Intelligence & Social Worth to make selection, and the selection is done from without by those in control of the society.  Rites of Passage use tests nature develops, all are subject to the same Tests and Nature makes the selection, not other people.

Our society as it stands already uses Eugenics with artificial Tests to maintain itself, that is what the SAT does.  You don't Score Big on the SAT, you don't get in to an Ivy League Skule.  Nobody knows this better than I do.  It's the TICKET.  You don't get that ticket, you are then shut out from the top positions in the top corporations.  It is rumored the first thing Bill Gates asked Melinda on their first Date is what she scored on the SAT.

Sending your Reproductive Age Adolescents out into the Wilderness to Test for Survival is not Eugenics.  It is Survival of the Fittest, pure Darwinism.  You make it back ALIVE after a year out in the Bush, you are WORTHY of Reproducing.  Very Straightforward, Very Fair.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 14, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
Well, You have certainly expressed the point more succinctly than I have RE.

On EXTREMELY RARE occassions, I can be Succinct & Brief.   :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 14, 2013, 05:47:35 PM
Pitiably, they are ZOMBIES, the walking dead. You don't really have to worry about killing them because NATURE BATS LAST. Get on with your own preparations and for CHRIST'S SAKE get off of Lucid's back. He is entitled to whatever feelings he has. And WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO PROPOSE OTHERWISE?

Thanks Karpatok.  I like hearing from you.  Maybe you can speak out on the Diner more. 

You do enough...don't worry bout your meager energy footprint. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 14, 2013, 06:04:20 PM
Pitiably, they are ZOMBIES, the walking dead. You don't really have to worry about killing them because NATURE BATS LAST. Get on with your own preparations and for CHRIST'S SAKE get off of Lucid's back. He is entitled to whatever feelings he has. And WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO PROPOSE OTHERWISE?

I'd also like to thank you Karpatok - LD was taking a beating and I was puzzled.
 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 14, 2013, 07:10:44 PM
Pitiably, they are ZOMBIES, the walking dead. You don't really have to worry about killing them because NATURE BATS LAST. Get on with your own preparations and for CHRIST'S SAKE get off of Lucid's back. He is entitled to whatever feelings he has. And WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO PROPOSE OTHERWISE?

I'd also like to thank you Karpatok - LD was taking a beating and I was puzzled.

So did I make it out the other side clean JoeP? 

I feel pretty clean...nothin' permanent at least.   :icon_mrgreen:

I'm ready for the next round :emthup:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 07:14:13 PM
I feel the main qualifier to class a process as such is if the explicit motive is to improve the human race in some fashion.
QUACK!  Um, exactly, I agree....
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 14, 2013, 07:25:10 PM
Thanks Karpatok.  I like hearing from you.  Maybe you can speak out on the Diner more. 

You do enough...don't worry bout your meager energy footprint.

Ouch!  Karpatok, I'm sorry if what I said came off as an admonition to do more.  Obviously LD thought so.  What you are doing is very admirable.  I was just using what you said to try to illustrate a different way of thinking, one that is ultimately more hopeful.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 14, 2013, 07:33:25 PM
Pitiably, they are ZOMBIES, the walking dead. You don't really have to worry about killing them because NATURE BATS LAST. Get on with your own preparations and for CHRIST'S SAKE get off of Lucid's back. He is entitled to whatever feelings he has. And WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO PROPOSE OTHERWISE?

I'd also like to thank you Karpatok - LD was taking a beating and I was puzzled.

So did I make it out the other side clean JoeP? 

I feel pretty clean...nothin' permanent at least.   :icon_mrgreen:

I'm ready for the next round :emthup:

Somewhere in the thread, I sincerely felt everything KK communicated. That's all I meant to say.

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 14, 2013, 11:17:12 PM
Went to work today, totally obsessed, distracted, focused on the fact that gov has built Big Brother, and has just sent the first full salvo of WWIII. So in the break room, before I punched in, ten of fifteen people in there, someone asked me how I was, and I said loud enough for everyone to hear, "Fine, except for the fact that we are going to war again, and our government is using it as cover, for the revelation that they have built a total surveillance state." It very much appeared to me that no one in that room had any idea what I was talking about.

I spent the first two hours bringing it up to everyone I could. No one appeared to have given it a previous thought, no one had much to show but indifference to say about it. I finally gave it up.

In a democracy, EVERYONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT. All night, I didn't hear a customer or an employee say a thing about it. This is not a democracy. This is a consumer cult.

After that, all I could hear was Gaia: "I feel every joy. I feel every pain. Almost none of your kind, my children, feel me."
Title: War Is A Racket
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 12:04:56 AM
Went to work today, totally obsessed, distracted, focused on the fact that gov has built Big Brother, and has just sent the first full salvo of WWIII.

WWIII?

WWI never ended.

War Is A Racket (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1)

Quote from: Smedley Butler

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few -- the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

And what is this bill?

This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations. ...

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 01:32:05 AM
Went to work today, totally obsessed, distracted, focused on the fact that gov has built Big Brother, and has just sent the first full salvo of WWIII. So in the break room, before I punched in, ten of fifteen people in there, someone asked me how I was, and I said loud enough for everyone to hear, "Fine, except for the fact that we are going to war again, and our government is using it as cover, for the revelation that they have built a total surveillance state." It very much appeared to me that no one in that room had any idea what I was talking about.

I spent the first two hours bringing it up to everyone I could. No one appeared to have given it a previous thought, no one had much to show but indifference to say about it. I finally gave it up.

In a democracy, EVERYONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT. All night, I didn't hear a customer or an employee say a thing about it. This is not a democracy. This is a consumer cult.

After that, all I could hear was Gaia: "I feel every joy. I feel every pain. Almost none of your kind, my children, feel me."
I'm so sorry WHD. If truth be told it has been that way for me my whole life. So I just decided to shoulder on anyway hoping that I was capable of speaking truth to power without being totally suicidal about it. I did later have a partner who taught me  a whole lot and he in turn had  been mentored at Columbia by some of the best, long long ago when Columbia was truly fine. It can get pretty lonely out there without a support system and I suspect that's one of the things the internet is good for and specifically Doomstead Diner. A virtual community. But I would urge you to keep trying. You did good today. Probably more than you know.K
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 01:41:04 AM
Thanks Karpatok.  I like hearing from you.  Maybe you can speak out on the Diner more. 

You do enough...don't worry bout your meager energy footprint.

Ouch!  Karpatok, I'm sorry if what I said came off as an admonition to do more.  Obviously LD thought so.  What you are doing is very admirable.  I was just using what you said to try to illustrate a different way of thinking, one that is ultimately more hopeful.
No problemo JDWheeler, rest assured. I thoroughly agreed with the suggestions for constructive lessening of the planet's plight. Actually there are some organizations here in the Bay area that do just those activities. I just haven't been able to hook up with them yet.k
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 02:44:06 AM

Why would you want to make sure a community remain within a certain carrying capacity?

To insure that the 7th Generation down the line still has a livable environment maybe?

Short sighted "Live for Today" psychology permeates Industrial Culture, and "Going Forth and Multiplying" has had some mighty bad consequences to it here, so this was not exactly good advice from Genesis, eh?

Quote from:  Genesis 9:7
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”

The fact that you took my [rhetorical] question completely out of context to make a deceitful argument and then took a Genesis quote completely out of context to make ANOTHER deceitful argument, really STRAINS my ability to be reasonable with you...

Have some intellectual integrity, man! Despite your profound intelligence and practical knowledge, you are as duplicitous as they come.

Answer this simple question: should specific human beings be granted coercive power to determine how other specific human beings "go forth and multiply", or should that be a matter of free will and moral conscience? And don't come up with some equivocating bullshit avoidance of the question... just answer it.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 03:05:36 AM

Answer this simple question: should specific human beings be granted coercive power to determine how other specific human beings "go forth and multiply", or should that be a matter of free will and moral conscience? And don't come up with some equivocating bullshit avoidance of the question... just answer it.

No.  It should not be a Human Arbitrated Decision for Zombies and Adolescents on the cusp of Reproductive Age.

I already EXPLICITLY STATED that ALL PEOPLE should be subject to the SAME tests, with NATURE rather than other Homo Sapiens as arbiter of whether they live to reproduce or not at Puberty.

Pigmen are another story.  They ARE subject to Human Arbitrated Decision if they are found GUILTY of Crimes Against Humanity by the Court of the Inquisition.  If so found GUILTY, they should be TERMINATED WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE.

HANG 'EM HIGH!

(http://gifsoup.com/view1/3873508/hang-em-high-o.gif)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 15, 2013, 04:21:47 AM
Went to work today, totally obsessed, distracted, focused on the fact that gov has built Big Brother, and has just sent the first full salvo of WWIII. So in the break room, before I punched in, ten of fifteen people in there, someone asked me how I was, and I said loud enough for everyone to hear, "Fine, except for the fact that we are going to war again, and our government is using it as cover, for the revelation that they have built a total surveillance state." It very much appeared to me that no one in that room had any idea what I was talking about.
//
In a democracy, EVERYONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT. All night, I didn't hear a customer or an employee say a thing about it. This is not a democracy. This is a consumer cult.

I'm so sorry WHD. If truth be told it has been that way for me my whole life. So I just decided to shoulder on anyway hoping that I was capable of speaking truth to power without being totally suicidal about it. // But I would urge you to keep trying. You did good today. Probably more than you know.K

FWIW, Karpatok has given you some good advice. Take heart that some of the seeds you distributed today will reach fertile ground. Law of averages.

OF COURSE we live in a consumer cult; nothing has changed. Yet our only home is to awaken our friends and neighbors, gently, because their slumber has been very long. And many prefer the comfort of the pillow.

To "de-zombiefy" them, if you will, to nod to the original point of the thread.

When K says "you did good today," take heart. It's why old men plant trees.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 15, 2013, 05:22:12 AM
 
Quote
As I have been saying right along, what kind of a God would set that up in advance? Is that what you would call a "benevolent god"? And who would worship such a god? A fallen angel? A Devil Worshiper?

Perhaps a person who is glad he was created.

A person who loves life.

A person who loves the Earth and all of creation.

A person who loves his parents and his children.

A person who is humble and knows he might not understand.

A person that possesses hope that problems can be solved.

A person that views life as a struggle to arrive in heaven.

A person who thinks the earth and this worldly life is a very small part of our future existence.

A person who thinks the earth can support 10 billion people quite well, if greed, war, ignorance, waste, all the assorted evils are conquered.

A person that thinks the only thing important is our soul, that our body only hosts it for a very short time.

A person that believes in Jesus and his example for us as to how to live properly, and our ignoring of his teachings as the main problem.   :-\    :dontknow:



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 05:32:02 AM
(http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/3/3a/Facepalm_-_-.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Ashvin said
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 10:09:39 AM
I see a WEALTH of "it's okay for THE ENLIGHTENED ONES" to be fruitful and multiply but the "ZOMBIES" (be they the 1% or the gophers for them) are NOT entitled to further fuck up the planet with their reproductive, resource consuming piggery.  ::)

And it gets BETTER.

We just want to dance among summer sunflowers with our children in flower festooned clothing, smiles all around and guns nearby to off the zombies that want our stuff. It's us or them, period. No nuance. If we don't have enough to share, tough shit for the zombie. There's ALWAYS going to be MORE zombies than "we enlightened few" so we must harden our hearts for the children's sake and "defend" our STUFF!!

You Christians have this pie in the sky stupid idea that "God" will provide and that has caused most of the problems we have today. You are NAIVE, UNREALISTIC, HYPOCRITICAL and COWARDLY to think conscience driven NUANCE has any value in a post collapse scenario. Didn't they teach you dumb Christians the 10 people in a boat adrift story (Thank you, RAND CORPORATION  :evil4:) in EVERY GRADE SCHOOL in the USA since about 1975? [ It is taught to American children BEFORE they can think critically - that was the idea of using game theory to produce conscience free killers. :evil4: I have written about that here before.] Hey, when there ain't enough FOOD, it's not just OKAY to use the weak as bait or throw them overboard to extend the food supply, IT'S YOUR DUTY to the STRONG!

All the above is 100% WRONG, UNETHICAL and leads to GENOCIDE WITHOUT REMORSE!

They don't see it, Ashvin. It seems we Christians are the bad guys here. The "Christians" that broke the word of God and trashed the planet for the sake of greed are what these fine people think a God Fearing Christian IS. Too bad.

Thanks for trying, Ashvin. They just do not want to DO serious introspection about the DANGER of "Star Chamber" type thinking that is brandished about here sometimes as a joke and sometimes not.

George Bush, our recent war loving president claimed he was a Christian but he WASN'T.

He also famously claimed his base was composed of the HAVES and HAVE MORES.
He was loyal to them and did absolutely everything he could to make sure THEY did whatever the fuck they wanted while NOBODY ELSE had that privilege. He considered THEM the "ENLIGHTENED ONES".

He also said, "I DON"T DO NUANCE".

The people of the earth love to simplify and stereotype other humans that surround them. It's easier. It lacks nuance. IT results in HORRENDOUS UNJUSTICES commited by well meaning people that just started out wanting to "take care of their own".

Yes indeed!

And our current Tyrant in Chief told us the Sermon on the Mount would reduce the MIC to rubble, as if that was a bad thing! I guess it would be for him and his cronies. And these people have the nerve to swear an Oath on the Bible...

How this thread wandered into the familiar territory of demonizing Christians, I'm not exactly sure... but I'm not surprised. It was bound to happen.

Like I said in my original comment, core beliefs have A LOT to do with this, just like blind FAITH in biological and social Darwinism had a lot to do with 20th century Eugenics and Atrocities of all sorts. Yet people here can't even manage to remember this:

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 02:29:37 PM

Answer this simple question: should specific human beings be granted coercive power to determine how other specific human beings "go forth and multiply", or should that be a matter of free will and moral conscience? And don't come up with some equivocating bullshit avoidance of the question... just answer it.

No.  It should not be a Human Arbitrated Decision for Zombies and Adolescents on the cusp of Reproductive Age.

I already EXPLICITLY STATED that ALL PEOPLE should be subject to the SAME tests, with NATURE rather than other Homo Sapiens as arbiter of whether they live to reproduce or not at Puberty.

Well maybe I'm just being dense, because AG seems to think your position is clear, but I'm still pretty confused about it.

I know you explicitly stated monsta's proposal was not any form of Eugenics earlier in the thread, which I disagree with.

Above you say there should be no human arbitration, with the added phrase "for Zombies and Adolescents on the cusp of Reproductive Age". If by that you basically mean "all human beings", then I would agree, but the plain meaning suggests some group of human beings could be reproductively regulated.

You also imply that some form of "testing" would be acceptable, as long as it is uniformly applied within the community. You imply that this would actually be natural selection rather than human selection. I strongly disagree...

Quote
Pigmen are another story.  They ARE subject to Human Arbitrated Decision if they are found GUILTY of Crimes Against Humanity by the Court of the Inquisition.  If so found GUILTY, they should be TERMINATED WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE.

Right, I'm well aware of your Orkin Man views... and that's a whole different issue. But I have no inherent problem with dispensing justice via capital punishment.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 02:45:53 PM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 02:51:20 PM

Above you say there should be no human arbitration, with the added phrase "for Zombies and Adolescents on the cusp of Reproductive Age". If by that you basically mean "all human beings", then I would agree, but the plain meaning suggests some group of human beings could be reproductively regulated.

I used those labels to distinguish them from Pigmen.  They are Sub-categories of Homo Sapiens.  The other sub-Categories are Children and Diners.  Children are dependent and cared for by the community until Adolescence.  Diners are the Adults in the community who make it back from the Wilderness alive after a year in the Bush.  Pigmen are Adults in the community who turn Greedy and face the Court of the Inquisition.  Zombies are a facet of our current culture who will soon be facing their own Test for Survival, and will FAIL by the Truckload.

The reproductive regulation occurs because not everybody makes it through the Test for Survival to live to reproduce.

Quote
You also imply that some form of "testing" would be acceptable, as long as it is uniformly applied within the community. You imply that this would actually be natural selection rather than human selection. I strongly disagree...

What is more Natural than Survival out in the Wilderness?  It's how we did it for millions of years on the way up the Evolutionary Ladder, and was highly successful in creating a tough, smart and adaptible creature.  When you have a successful paradigm, why mess with it?  It works.
Title: Ashvin said
Post by: agelbert on June 15, 2013, 03:04:18 PM
Quote
Like I said in my original comment, core beliefs have A LOT to do with this, just like blind FAITH in biological and social Darwinism had a lot to do with 20th century Eugenics and Atrocities of all sorts. Yet people here can't even manage to remember this:

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
YEP. And thanks to GO for some kind words to defer the very valid frustration many here feel about the negative effects of Orwellian "Christians" (they just claim the label  :evil4:) on society.

I just posted this on my channel but it fits here:

Evolution myths: 'Survival of the fittest' justifies 'everyone for themselves' (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-034.gif)
             

by Michael Le Page

The "fittest" can be the most loving and selfless, not the most aggressive and violent. In any case, what happens in nature does not justify people behaving in the same way


The phrase "survival of the fittest", which was coined not by Darwin but by the philosopher Herbert Spencer, is widely misunderstood.

For starters, there is a lot more to evolution by natural selection than just the survival of the fittest. There must also be a population of replicating entities and variations between them that affect fitness - variation that must be heritable. By itself, survival of the fittest is a dead end. Business people are especially guilty of confusing survival of the fittest with evolution.

What's more, although the phrase conjures up an image of a violent struggle for survival, in reality the word "fittest" seldom means the strongest or the most aggressive. On the contrary, it can mean anything from the best camouflaged or the most fecund to the cleverest or the most cooperative. Forget Rambo, think Einstein or Gandhi.

What we see in the wild is not every animal for itself. Cooperation is an incredibly successful survival strategy. Indeed it has been the basis of all the most dramatic steps in the history of life. Complex cells evolved from cooperating simple cells. Multicellular organisms are made up of cooperating complex cells. Superorganisms such as bee or ant colonies consist of cooperating individuals.

Suicidal cells

When cooperation breaks down, the results can be disastrous. When cells in our bodies turn rogue, for instance, the result is cancer. So elaborate mechanisms have evolved to maintain cooperation and suppress selfishness, such as cellular "surveillance" programmes that trigger cell suicide if they start to turn cancerous.

Looked at from this point of view, the concept of the survival of the fittest could be used to justify socialism rather than laissez-faire capitalism. Then again, the success of social insects could be used to argue for totalitarianism. Which illustrates another point: it is nonsense to appeal to the "survival of the fittest" to justify any economic or political ideology, especially on the basis that it is "natural".

Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it? Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it? Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups? Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

And now a fun emoticon tale of woe courtesy of  agelbert's department of quixotic exhortations   ::)



Perceptive, environmentally conscious Doomsteaders set up a sustainable and secure community of like minded individuals  :icon_sunny: who KEENLY observe the "humans" around them:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif) CHANGES TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) BECAUSE OF -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif)


THEN TSHTF (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-037.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared002.gif)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) SEES THIS  -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif) TURN TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)-->

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) THEN ASSUMES THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif) WILL BECOME THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif) 100% OF THE TIME...

PARANOIA TAKES OVER THE IMAGINATION:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)=(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif)=(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-026.gif) =  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)=  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif) = = :angry2: :angry3: :angry4: :angry5:

SOME THESE APPROACH THE DOOMSTEAD -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)

THEY LOOK LIKE THIS AFTER SURVIVING SOME ACTION IN THE CITIES -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif) BUT OUR PARANOID DOOMSTER ONLY SEES THIS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)

SO THIS HAPPENS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)<----------(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-027.gif)



AND THE SURVIVAL COMMUNITY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER, RIGHT?
:ernaehrung004:(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif):ernaehrung004: 







(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif)



We now return you to this painful, but truthful, article   8)




Powerful grip

Just about every kind of behavior that most of us regard as "unnatural" turns out to be perfectly natural in some nook or cranny of the animal kingdom. No one can plausibly argue that this justifies humans behaving in the same way.

Yet even though such examples expose the
utter absurdity of appealing to what is "natural" to judge right from wrong - the naturalistic fallacy - we seem to have a strange blind spot when it comes to evolution. Survival of the fittest has been claimed to justify all kinds of things, from free markets to eugenics. Such notions still have a powerful grip in some circles.


However, natural selection is simply a description of what happens in the living world. It does not tell us how we should behave.

Read all the myths in our Evolution Special

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13671-evolution-myths-survival-of-the-fittest-justifies-everyone-for-themselves.html#.UbydLIzD_m4 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13671-evolution-myths-survival-of-the-fittest-justifies-everyone-for-themselves.html#.UbydLIzD_m4)

Title: Re: Ashvin said
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 03:20:41 PM
Quote
Like I said in my original comment, core beliefs have A LOT to do with this, just like blind FAITH in biological and social Darwinism had a lot to do with 20th century Eugenics and Atrocities of all sorts. Yet people here can't even manage to remember this:

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
YEP. And thanks to GO for some kind words to defer the very valid frustration many here feel about the negative effects of Orwellian "Christians" (they just claim the label  :evil4:) on society.

I just posted this on my channel but it fits here:

Evolution myths: 'Survival of the fittest' justifies 'everyone for themselves' (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-034.gif)
             

by Michael Le Page

The "fittest" can be the most loving and selfless, not the most aggressive and violent. In any case, what happens in nature does not justify people behaving in the same way


The phrase "survival of the fittest", which was coined not by Darwin but by the philosopher Herbert Spencer, is widely misunderstood.

For starters, there is a lot more to evolution by natural selection than just the survival of the fittest. There must also be a population of replicating entities and variations between them that affect fitness - variation that must be heritable. By itself, survival of the fittest is a dead end. Business people are especially guilty of confusing survival of the fittest with evolution.

What's more, although the phrase conjures up an image of a violent struggle for survival, in reality the word "fittest" seldom means the strongest or the most aggressive. On the contrary, it can mean anything from the best camouflaged or the most fecund to the cleverest or the most cooperative. Forget Rambo, think Einstein or Gandhi.

What we see in the wild is not every animal for itself. Cooperation is an incredibly successful survival strategy. Indeed it has been the basis of all the most dramatic steps in the history of life. Complex cells evolved from cooperating simple cells. Multicellular organisms are made up of cooperating complex cells. Superorganisms such as bee or ant colonies consist of cooperating individuals.

Suicidal cells

When cooperation breaks down, the results can be disastrous. When cells in our bodies turn rogue, for instance, the result is cancer. So elaborate mechanisms have evolved to maintain cooperation and suppress selfishness, such as cellular "surveillance" programmes that trigger cell suicide if they start to turn cancerous.

Looked at from this point of view, the concept of the survival of the fittest could be used to justify socialism rather than laissez-faire capitalism. Then again, the success of social insects could be used to argue for totalitarianism. Which illustrates another point: it is nonsense to appeal to the "survival of the fittest" to justify any economic or political ideology, especially on the basis that it is "natural".

Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it? Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it? Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups? Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

And now a fun emoticon tale of woe courtesy of  agelbert's department of quixotic exhortations   ::)



Perceptive, environmentally conscious Doomsteaders set up a sustainable and secure community of like minded individuals  :icon_sunny: who KEENLY observe the "humans" around them:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif) CHANGES TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) BECAUSE OF -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif)


THEN TSHTF (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-037.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared002.gif)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) SEES THIS  -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif) TURN TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)-->

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) THEN ASSUMES THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif) WILL BECOME THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif) 100% OF THE TIME...

PARANOIA TAKES OVER THE IMAGINATION:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)=(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif)=(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-026.gif) =  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)=  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif) = = :angry2: :angry3: :angry4: :angry5:

SOME THESE APPROACH THE DOOMSTEAD -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)

THEY LOOK LIKE THIS AFTER SURVIVING SOME ACTION IN THE CITIES -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif) BUT OUR PARANOID DOOMSTER ONLY SEES THIS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)

SO THIS HAPPENS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)<----------(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-027.gif)



AND THE SURVIVAL COMMUNITY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER, RIGHT?
:ernaehrung004:(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif):ernaehrung004: 







(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif)



We now return you to this painful, but truthful, article   8)




Powerful grip

Just about every kind of behavior that most of us regard as "unnatural" turns out to be perfectly natural in some nook or cranny of the animal kingdom. No one can plausibly argue that this justifies humans behaving in the same way.

Yet even though such examples expose the
utter absurdity of appealing to what is "natural" to judge right from wrong - the naturalistic fallacy - we seem to have a strange blind spot when it comes to evolution. Survival of the fittest has been claimed to justify all kinds of things, from free markets to eugenics. Such notions still have a powerful grip in some circles.


However, natural selection is simply a description of what happens in the living world. It does not tell us how we should behave.

Read all the myths in our Evolution Special

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13671-evolution-myths-survival-of-the-fittest-justifies-everyone-for-themselves.html#.UbydLIzD_m4 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13671-evolution-myths-survival-of-the-fittest-justifies-everyone-for-themselves.html#.UbydLIzD_m4)
Like I said, Old Man, Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on "REINVENTIVENESS. Something of which the better and smarter and more fit members of HSS are quite capable . So fixed it for you too.
Title: Emoticon King Agelbert goes APESHIT!
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 03:26:27 PM
I see you have visited the Emoticon Repositories.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 03:49:37 PM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.

Thanks, but personally I like the original quote better...

My take is that God already did all the real INVENTING, we just need to constantly reminds ourselves of WHY we were given the privilege to be his moral agents on Earth.

"Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering." Hebrews 13:3
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 15, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
Quote
I see you have visited the Emoticon Repositories.  LOL.

RE

You have created a (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif)      (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-003.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-013.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-028.gif)        (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-007.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 03:54:31 PM
 Like AAshvin  and Agelbery are going to tell us how to behave. That is so sweet. Not wanting anyone to curtail their reptilian replication but setting up their own cults and prejudices to control the behavior of others. "Go forth and multiply indeed". Just what is desired by cult controllers using the bodies of the opposite sex to stay in their places and do their bidding or else. No Thank You Kind Sirs. We have seen the enemy and it ain't going to be us anymore.
Title: K said
Post by: agelbert on June 15, 2013, 03:59:38 PM
Quote
Like I said, Old Man, Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on "REINVENTIVENESS. Something of which the better and smarter and more fit members of HSS are quite capable . So fixed it for you too.

Yes dear. I think I'll get some coffee now.  :coffee:

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-022.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-032.gif)   (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-042.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 04:00:13 PM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.

Thanks, but personally I like the original quote better...

My take is that God already did all the real INVENTING, we just need to constantly reminds ourselves of WHY we were given the privilege to be his moral agents on Earth. BAAARRFFF. Just more of the same BUSHWAH!

"Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering." Hebrews 13:3
[/qu
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 15, 2013, 04:06:39 PM
You have created a (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif)      (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-003.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-013.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-028.gif)        (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-007.gif)

One of these days you will make a post entirely of emotions and everyone will understand you to boot!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 04:10:09 PM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.

Thanks, but personally I like the original quote better...

My take is that God already did all the real INVENTING, we just need to constantly reminds ourselves of WHY we were given the privilege to be his moral agents on Earth. BAAARRFFF. Just more of the same BUSHWAH!

"Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering." Hebrews 13:3
[/qu
Excuse me. Do you need a translation of "BAAARRFFF" and "BUSHWAH"? BLAH,BLAH, BLAH. Somebody please take out the pious, blather garbage and turn on the lights.
Title: Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 04:17:31 PM
You have created a (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif)      (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-003.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-013.gif)     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-028.gif)        (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-007.gif)

One of these days you will make a post entirely of emotions and everyone will understand you to boot!

Agelbert is creating a New Pictographic Writing form for the Diner.

To understand it, you will need to be immersed in Diner culture, it is Metaphorical Language.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

(http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/darmok-and-jalad-at-tanagra-demotivational-poster-1249904439.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 15, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
Quote
Not wanting anyone to curtail their reptilian replication

Uh, it seems to me that I had a vasectomy in 1974 to not have anymore than two. Did you miss that in these pages? I find expected behavior of Christian responsible stewardship of God's garden even though I was an atheist when I had it done.  ;)

I'M THE ONE DEFENDING LD'S RIGHT to more offspring than two IF he applies that to EVERYONE.

What is your PROBLEM with that?

And also dear, have you forgotten this message you sent me or were you just in a "be nice to the enemy" stage that day?

Quote
Re: Where is Agelbert?
« Sent to: agelbert  on: February 24, 2013, 12:29:40 AM » 
i'M VERY SORRY you were so ill. You certainly won't get any vitriol from me. Partly because I went through Hell myself this past fall and also because I,ve just about had it with (NAMES DELETED  OUT OF MY RESPECT FOR YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGE  ;)) here. So have mostly been lurking myself and may just do a fade out. I just didn,t want you to have left without saying goodbye since you are truly one of the good guys here. Of course we are all a mixture and that's what makes us human. However, I'm glad to have heard from you again, and so glad you are still around.

Your bi-polar behavior is unsettling, dear. If you have forgotten the two fellows you named in the above message I will gladly PM them to you. 

I'm not your enemy. But frankly, I don't CARE if you think I am or not. I'm too much of an old fart to get excited about much of anything. I AM glad you are commenting here. I just wish your memory was better.

Comments from you are always welcome. You are smart and, though a bit on the lazy side because you never wrote that health diet article I asked you to, can see through bullshit pretty well when you don't have your "I'M PISSED AT GOD AND ALL THOSE FUCKING CHRISTIANS" hat on. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-023.gif)

The ball is in your court, dear.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-032.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 04:30:58 PM
I used those labels to distinguish them from Pigmen.  They are Sub-
What is more Natural than Survival out in the Wilderness?  It's how we did it for millions of years on the way up the Evolutionary Ladder, and was highly successful in creating a tough, smart and adaptible creature.  When you have a successful paradigm, why mess with it?  It works.

Survival is natural, FORCING people into the "wilderness" against their will is not, your obvious nostalgia for the "glory days" of tribal living and rites of passage notwithstanding.

Besides that, I also obviously disagree with your premise. Pure ability to survive in nature is not what made or makes us human. We are human DESPITE our natural tendencies to put our own survival above everything and everyone else, creating economic, social, cultural, racial, ethnic, etc. barriers in the process.

The reason we travel through the wilderness is to escape that SLAVERY and get to the PROMISED LAND.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 04:38:01 PM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.

Thanks, but personally I like the original quote better...

My take is that God already did all the real INVENTING, we just need to constantly reminds ourselves of WHY we were given the privilege to be his moral agents on Earth. BAAARRFFF. Just more of the same BUSHWAH!

"Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering." Hebrews 13:3

Excuse me. Do you need a translation of "BAAARRFFF" and "BUSHWAH"? BLAH,BLAH, BLAH. Somebody please take out the pious, blather garbage and turn on the lights.

Sorry... I kind of just edited that quotation of scripture in to NEEDLE you  :P. I confess!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 04:43:29 PM

Survival is natural, FORCING people into the "wilderness" against their will is not, your obvious nostalgia for the "glory days" of tribal living and rites of passage notwithstanding.

People are forced by every culture to do things.  You are forced to go to Skule to get your Law Degree and forced to take the Bar Exam if you wanna actually make a living with said Sheepskin.  You don't pass this Rite of Passage, at best you flip burgers the rest of your life.

You got the CHOICE not to do it, but if you choose not to, you are not part of the culture.  You are free to go elsewhere and see who will take you in.

Quote
Besides that, I also obviously disagree with your premise. Pure ability to survive in nature is not what made or makes us human. We are human DESPITE our natural tendencies to put our own survival above everything and everyone else, creating economic, social, cultural, racial, ethnic, etc. barriers in the process.

The reason we travel through the wilderness is to escape that SLAVERY and get to the PROMISED LAND.

Exiting the Wilderness was Exiting the Garden of Eden dude.  The Slavery came AFTER we left that one behind.  I'm about bringing it BACK.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 15, 2013, 05:08:47 PM
This may have already been covered and I missed it - my apology in advance.

Let's just say a family member of a Foxsteader that is considered a "zombie" shows up at a SUN location (post-collapse eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related SUN family is maxed out on their "family membership" quota.  What is the SUN protocol?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 15, 2013, 05:11:54 PM
Quote
One of these days you will make a post entirely of emotions and everyone will understand you to boot!

So, you want me to spell it out? :icon_mrgreen:

You whippersnappers need some synaptic 3D wiring changes! Harrumph!

I'm certain you would NEVER pretend to be deliberately dense to have a little fun so I will not get huffy and demand satisfaction. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-003.gif)

Perceptive, environmentally conscious Doomsteaders set up a sustainable and secure community of like minded individuals  :icon_sunny: who KEENLY observe the "humans" around them:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)(Doomstead survival community = castle)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif)(= Doomsteaders guarding the survival community pre-collapse) CHANGES TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif)(=Angry doomsteader at useless eater overpopulating pigs) BECAUSE OF -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif)(=useless eater overfornicating piggy)


THEN TSHTF (THE COLLAPSE OCCURS!)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-037.gif)(= shit hitting the fan  :evil4:)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared002.gif)(= Fear abounds. Doomsteaders seal the community from outsiders)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) SEES THIS  -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-022.gif) TURN TO THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)(= Post collapse HUNGER AMONG THE USELESS EATER OVERPOPULATING PIGGIES-->

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif) THEN ASSUMES THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif) WILL BECOME THIS (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif)(hunger will dehumanize the useless eater overpopulating piggies and they will morph into ZOMBIES) 100% OF THE TIME...

PARANOIA TAKES OVER THE IMAGINATION:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif)-->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-looney-toons-008.gif)(the doomsteader IMAGINES THE WORSE)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif) MORPHS INTO(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif)MORPHS INTO(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-026.gif) MORPHS INTO (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)WHICH WILL DESTROY THE DOOMSTEAD FOOD AND PEOPLE (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif) (=a VERY ANGRY DOOMSTEADER DETERMINED to TAKE CARE OF HIS OWN EVEN IF HE HAS TO KILL THE "ZOMBIES" (After all, they're dead already so WTF! :evil4:)   :angry2: :angry3: :angry4: :angry5:

SOME OF THESE APPROACH THE DOOMSTEAD -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)(HUNGRY OUTSIDERS LOOKING FOR FOOD AND SHELTER)
THEY LOOK LIKE THIS AFTER SURVIVING SOME ACTION IN THE CITIES -->(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif)(AN OUTSIDER LOOKING FOR SHELTER WITH HIS GUN AND BUGOUT BAG)
 BUT OUR PARANOID DOOMSTER ONLY SEES THIS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-023.gif)

SO THIS HAPPENS --> (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)<----------(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-027.gif)(DOOMSTEADER KILLS OUTSIDER ASSUMING THE OUTSIDER IS UNWORTHY OF LIFE (I.E. ZOMBIE)



AND THE SURVIVAL COMMUNITY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER, RIGHT?
:ernaehrung004:(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif):ernaehrung004: 
(Survival community celebrates death of zombies because it increases the community's share of food and thereby increases their chances of surving and POPULATING the earth with the "enlightened ones".)


A couple of decades go by...Power struggles are born of a scarcity based society instead of one based on sharing...All initial sharing arrangements deteriorate to favor blood relatives...




(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif)(Because the community has an us versus them polarization for "outsiders", soon "lazy" community members that don't "pull their weight" or have pissed off the top dogs somehow get pushed out and warned they will be treated like a zombie if they try to steal veggies. Suspicion and jealousy end up destroying the community when competing cliques based along blood lines accuse each other of stealing hogs, veggies or women.)

Historical precedent:
 
Clan Campbell and Clan MacDonald - The Great Feud
Quote
Memories run long in the highlands of Scotland and, we've heard tell, the bitterness between Clans Campbell and MacDonald continues to this day. The clash between these two ancient Celtic houses, which has lasted for hundreds of years, is not just about lands, religion, Jacobitism, or even betrayal. Rather, it is about power. - See more at: http://www.heartoscotland.com/Categories/CampbellsandMacDonalds.htm#sthash.Oti01mUq.dpuf (http://www.heartoscotland.com/Categories/CampbellsandMacDonalds.htm#sthash.Oti01mUq.dpuf)

I hope that makes the message less of a mystery. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-052.gif)





Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 05:17:47 PM
This may have already been covered and I missed it - my apology in advance.

Let's just say a family member of a Foxsteader that is considered a "zombie" shows up at a SUN location (post-collapse eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related SUN family is maxed out on their "family membership" quota.  What is the SUN protocol?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

This is a question to be asked on the SUN  :icon_sunny: board, not here.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 05:18:14 PM
People are forced by every culture to do things.  You are forced to go to Skule to get your Law Degree and forced to take the Bar Exam if you wanna actually make a living with said Sheepskin.  You don't pass this Rite of Passage, at best you flip burgers the rest of your life.

You got the CHOICE not to do it, but if you choose not to, you are not part of the culture.  You are free to go elsewhere and see who will take you in.

Yet you yourself have written many times about how such economic, social, cultural barriers are the product of a BROKEN system. Just because we must live IN the world does not mean we must be OF the world.

Also, forcing members of a community to, let's say, pay taxes is NOT the same thing as forcing them to prove themselves worthy of liberty, or more importantly, LIFE. That's why we use a presumption of innocence and such a strict standard of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) before taking those rights away, at least in theory.

Quote
Exiting the Wilderness was Exiting the Garden of Eden dude.  The Slavery came AFTER we left that one behind.  I'm about bringing it BACK.

RE

Not according to my history!

Either way, exiting Eden was necessary to get somewhere even better. We should move forward, not back. Perhaps the slavery, actual and metaphorical (or spiritual, if you will), was intensified by the agricultural and industrial revolutions, but that's not where it began and that's not how it will end.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 15, 2013, 05:31:17 PM
Let's just say the retalive of a post-collapse ready tribe/community member that is considered a "zombie" shows up at the property (eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related post-collapse ready tribe/community family is maxed out on their community/tribe "family membership" quota.  What should the post-collapse ready tribe/community protocol be?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 05:35:11 PM

Yet you yourself have written many times about how such economic, social, cultural barriers are the product of a BROKEN system. Just because we must live IN the world does not mean we must be OF the world.

It's broken because the criteria are all wrong, and administered by the Illuminati.  We are not being prepared in the right way or tested in the right way, but there is nothing wrong a priori with preparation and education and followed by testing for proficiency.

Quote
Also, forcing members of a community to, let's say, pay taxes is NOT the same thing as forcing them to prove themselves worthy of liberty, or more importantly, LIFE. That's why we use a presumption of innocence and such a strict standard of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) before taking those rights away, at least in theory.

If your tax burden is such that you no longer can afford to feed yourself and your family, it takes away both life & liberty.  Rites of Passage do not take away Presumption of Innocence, everyone subject to the test is neither Guilty or Innocent, they are just proving their worth.

Quote

Not according to my history!

Your History and My History do not precisely match, granted.  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Either way, exiting Eden was necessary to get somewhere even better. We should move forward, not back. Perhaps the slavery, actual and metaphorical (or spiritual, if you will), was intensified by the agricultural and industrial revolutions, but that's not where it began and that's not how it will end.

"Move Forward", aka the Progress Meme.

In the Podcast we just completed with Guy McPherson, he likens this to an Airplane, which must keep moving Forward to stay up in the air.  Progress stops, the Airplane (civilization) crashes.  Exactly how many times do we need to repeat this same FAILED meme before we try another one?

It's a Dead End.  Time for some REVERSE ENGINEERING.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
Let's just say the retalive of a post-collapse ready tribe/community member that is considered a "zombie" shows up at the property (eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related post-collapse ready tribe/community family is maxed out on their community/tribe "family membership" quota.  What should the post-collapse ready tribe/community protocol be?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

Taking SUN  :icon_sunny: out of the question doesn't resolve the problem for me answering the question.  I can only do that using Protocols we are formulating on the SUN  :icon_sunny: board, and they are not finished yet.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 15, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
Let's just say the retalive of a post-collapse ready tribe/community member that is considered a "zombie" shows up at the property (eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related post-collapse ready tribe/community family is maxed out on their community/tribe "family membership" quota.  What should the post-collapse ready tribe/community protocol be?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

Taking SUN  :icon_sunny: out of the question doesn't resolve the problem for me answering the question.  I can only do that using Protocols we are formulating on the SUN  :icon_sunny: board, and they are not finished yet.

RE

I think my revised version should be allowed in this thread.  Otherwise, I have to call censorship.  (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-012.gif)
 
 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
People are forced by every culture to do things.  You are forced to go to Skule to get your Law Degree and forced to take the Bar Exam if you wanna actually make a living with said Sheepskin.  You don't pass this Rite of Passage, at best you flip burgers the rest of your life.

You got the CHOICE not to do it, but if you choose not to, you are not part of the culture.  You are free to go elsewhere and see who will take you in.

Yet you yourself have written many times about how such economic, social, cultural barriers are the product of a BROKEN system. Just because we must live IN the world does not mean we must be OF the world.

Also, forcing members of a community to, let's say, pay taxes is NOT the same thing as forcing them to prove themselves worthy of liberty, or more importantly, LIFE. That's why we use a presumption of innocence and such a strict standard of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) before taking those rights away, at least in theory.

Quote
Exiting the Wilderness was Exiting the Garden of Eden dude.  The Slavery came AFTER we left that one behind.  I'm about bringing it BACK.

RE

Not according to my history!

{Either way, exiting Eden was necessary to get somewhere even better. We should move forward, not back. Perhaps the slavery, actual and metaphorical (or spiritual, if you will), was intensified by the agricultural and industrial revolutions, but that's not where it began and that's not how it will end}.
  You've got it,Watson. Bravo. "We should move forward,not back." A new Book. A new page. A new day. Karpatok
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 06:03:43 PM

I think my revised version should be allowed in this thread.  Otherwise, I have to call censorship.  (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-012.gif)

The QUESTION is allowed Joe, I just won't ANSWER it here. I AM allowed to SELF CENSOR. :icon_sunny:

Anyone else wants to answer it, they are free to do so, though IMHO SUN  :icon_sunny: board members should not take any information from there to use in the response.  That would be violating Confidentiality.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 15, 2013, 06:06:51 PM
Converting a plane into a helicopter during mid-flight is a very difficult task at the best of times. Many people would say it is outright impossible without experiencing a crash landing first. Sums our current predicament quite nicely.

Growth, technology and progress form the holy trinity of the modern day religion. None of these pillars can be challenged and we are taught indoctrinated into this belief system from a very early age.

Let's just say the relative of a post-collapse ready tribe/community member that is considered a "zombie" shows up at the property (eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related post-collapse ready tribe/community family is maxed out on their community/tribe "family membership" quota.  What should the post-collapse ready tribe/community protocol be?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is "kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

Hard to go into the specifics and I cannot speak for the SUN community but my personal take would depend on how productive this participant would be in the community. If they were willing to get stuck in and become a productive member of the group then I would imagine their chances of being accepted are greater however if they became a bit of free loader it is likely they would be shunned. That is unless their personal genius was to entertain the community but then they would have to be a real genius on that part. If you want to know further details however send one of the more prominent SUN members such as WHD a pm. He will be able to fill you on the genius part of the post I describe!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 15, 2013, 06:08:14 PM
It's broken because the criteria are all wrong, and administered by the Illuminati.  We are not being prepared in the right way or tested in the right way, but there is nothing wrong a priori with preparation and education and followed by testing for proficiency.

A priori, no. The Bible is all about God testing faith, after all. Fallen and fallible humans "testing" other humans for "proficiency" at life... well that's another matter.

Quote
If your tax burden is such that you no longer can afford to feed yourself and your family, it takes away both life & liberty.  Rites of Passage do not take away Presumption of Innocence, everyone subject to the test is neither Guilty or Innocent, they are just proving their worth.

True, excessive and arbitrary tax burdens should be avoided as well.

The point is, we inherently recognize the fundamental right to life should only be forfeited in the most egregious of circumstances, when someone has unjustly terminated the rights to life of other people, and we can determine such a crime has happened by almost absolute certainty.

Yet it suddenly becomes OK if we dress it up as a "proficiency test" for all members of our community? That necessarily shifts the burden of proof and persuasion... I must now prove to my community that I am worthy of a right to life, beyond a very reasonable chance of getting OFFED in the wilderness.

Quote
"Move Forward", aka the Progress Meme.

In the Podcast we just completed with Guy McPherson, he likens this to an Airplane, which must keep moving Forward to stay up in the air.  Progress stops, the Airplane (civilization) crashes.  Exactly how many times do we need to repeat this same FAILED meme before we try another one?

It's a Dead End.  Time for some REVERSE ENGINEERING.

RE

Not really... I think we need an intellectual foundation that transcends both material positivism and modernity, AKA Progress Meme, and post-modern concepts of social anarchy or neo-tribalism (which would still be a way of moving forward, not back). Like AG has said a few times, there's a lot of room for NUANCE here.

You obviously recognize the value in testing humanity, but we differ on the goals of such testing. I beleive we are tested in this world to demonstrate our capacity for virtues, i.e. forgiveness, love, selfless action, moral responsibility, in the face of enormous Evil. THAT is how we are propelled further into our humanity over time by God's grace, not by being smart and trying to make everything around us bigger, better, faster, stronger. The Progress Meme is WAY off, but so is the "Progress is always Bad Meme"
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 15, 2013, 06:19:35 PM

I think my revised version should be allowed in this thread.  Otherwise, I have to call censorship.  (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-012.gif)

The QUESTION is allowed Joe, I just won't ANSWER it here. I AM allowed to SELF CENSOR. :icon_sunny:

Anyone else wants to answer it, they are free to do so, though IMHO SUN  :icon_sunny: board members should not take any information from there to use in the response.  That would be violating Confidentiality.

RE

This is comical..I remember someone moving this thread from "Behind the Curtain".     :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 06:31:39 PM
Yet it suddenly becomes OK if we dress it up as a "proficiency test" for all members of our community? That necessarily shifts the burden of proof and persuasion... I must now prove to my community that I am worthy of a right to life, beyond a very reasonable chance of getting OFFED in the wilderness.

Crux of the matter here methinks, and yes I think you DO need to prove your worth to the community long as you are deriving your life sustenance as being part of such a community.  If you do not add value in some way, but only leech off the rest of the community, why should they support you?

MANY ways to contribute of course, old folks can contribute knowledge gained over many years, arbitrate disputes between Hot Head Millenials, that sorta thing.

To grow into this, at reproductive age you get tested for you strength, intelligence and stamina facing down Mother Nature.  You are not facing other Humans, no arbiter here for your life or death other than Mother Nature and your own abilities.  If you prepared well as a Child, if you PAID ATTENTION to your Elders who tried to teach you means to survive and if you Studied and Practiced, you got a Better Than Even Chance to make it through to the Other Side.  If you were a lazy and disrespectful child, chances are you won't make it. This is very fair IMHO.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 15, 2013, 06:47:43 PM
This is comical..I remember someone moving this thread from "Behind the Curtain".     :laugh:

THAT'S HOW IT GOES JOE.  EVERYBODY KNOWS

ADMIN: POWER OF GOD ON A FORUM.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 15, 2013, 06:52:24 PM
This is comical..I remember someone moving this thread from "Behind the Curtain".     :laugh:

THAT'S HOW IT GOES JOE.  EVERYBODY KNOWS

ADMIN: POWER OF GOD ON A FORUM.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE


OK.  I'm good with that...probably just wanted to hear it.  :emthup:   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 15, 2013, 09:27:01 PM
Quote
Not wanting anyone to curtail their reptilian replication

Uh, it seems to me that I had a vasectomy in 1974 to not have anymore than two. Did you miss that in these pages? I find expected behavior of Christian responsible stewardship of God's garden even though I was an atheist when I had it done.  ;)

I'M THE ONE DEFENDING LD'S RIGHT to more offspring than two IF he applies that to EVERYONE.

What is your PROBLEM with that?

And also dear, have you forgotten this message you sent me or were you just in a "be nice to the enemy" stage that day?

Quote
Re: Where is Agelbert?
« Sent to: agelbert  on: February 24, 2013, 12:29:40 AM » 
i'M VERY SORRY you were so ill. You certainly won't get any vitriol from me. Partly because I went through Hell myself this past fall and also because I,ve just about had it with (NAMES DELETED  OUT OF MY RESPECT FOR YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGE  ;)) here. So have mostly been lurking myself and may just do a fade out. I just didn,t want you to have left without saying goodbye since you are truly one of the good guys here. Of course we are all a mixture and that's what makes us human. However, I'm glad to have heard from you again, and so glad you are still around.

Your bi-polar behavior is unsettling, dear. If you have forgotten the two fellows you named in the above message I will gladly PM them to you. 

I'm not your enemy. But frankly, I don't CARE if you think I am or not. I'm too much of an old fart to get excited about much of anything. I AM glad you are commenting here. I just wish your memory was better.

Comments from you are always welcome. You are smart and, though a bit on the lazy side because you never wrote that health diet article I asked you to, can see through bullshit pretty well when you don't have your "I'M PISSED AT GOD AND ALL THOSE FUCKING CHRISTIANS" hat on. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-023.gif)

The ball is in your court, dear.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-032.gif)
To the old neutered fillibrating babushka with his nose in everybody's business, telling them how to feel, what to believe, how to act, etc.etc.etc. A very wise old Jew taught me on my 18th birthday what to say to such people who obviously have no life or strong personal boundaries or integrity. And this is it in a nutshell. FUCK YOU, FUCK OFF, and DROP DEAD YOU OLD FART!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 16, 2013, 06:25:57 AM
Yet it suddenly becomes OK if we dress it up as a "proficiency test" for all members of our community? That necessarily shifts the burden of proof and persuasion... I must now prove to my community that I am worthy of a right to life, beyond a very reasonable chance of getting OFFED in the wilderness.

Crux of the matter here methinks, and yes I think you DO need to prove your worth to the community long as you are deriving your life sustenance as being part of such a community.  If you do not add value in some way, but only leech off the rest of the community, why should they support you?

Because even "leechy" human beings are born (or conceived) with a right to life. I believe that should be a part of the moral fabric of any community, no matter what scale or organizational structure. And even leeches can learn by example, "it is better to give than to receive". Obviously the goal for any community is for its members to grow into this moral compass towards non-leechlike behavior. No person or community can give what they do not already have, but that is a true natural limitation.

Quote
To grow into this, at reproductive age you get tested for you strength, intelligence and stamina facing down Mother Nature.  You are not facing other Humans, no arbiter here for your life or death other than Mother Nature and your own abilities.  If you prepared well as a Child, if you PAID ATTENTION to your Elders who tried to teach you means to survive and if you Studied and Practiced, you got a Better Than Even Chance to make it through to the Other Side.  If you were a lazy and disrespectful child, chances are you won't make it. This is very fair IMHO.

RE

Just a small step down from Battle Royale, IMHO.

(http://www.thechatcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/battle-royale-screenshot-11-475x267.jpeg)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 06:31:08 AM
This is comical..I remember someone moving this thread from "Behind the Curtain".     :laugh:

THAT'S HOW IT GOES JOE.  EVERYBODY KNOWS

ADMIN: POWER OF GOD ON A FORUM.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE


OK.  I'm good with that...probably just wanted to hear it.  :emthup:   :icon_mrgreen:

I answered the question on the SUN board and it includes the phrase "zombie camp."   :icon_mrgreen:

Which is probably enough for the Neonazi meme pontificators to get their eugenics jargon firing on all cylinders :laugh:

RE, I don't have a problem with answering Joe's question here.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 16, 2013, 07:38:59 AM
This is comical..I remember someone moving this thread from "Behind the Curtain".     :laugh:

THAT'S HOW IT GOES JOE.  EVERYBODY KNOWS

ADMIN: POWER OF GOD ON A FORUM.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

Be threatened with (or have implemented upon myself) RE's ADMIN POWER OF GOD.

Looks like I check that one off my bucket list.   :emthup:  :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
okay, so I got a little behind in reading, but I just caught up.

Seems to me that we have two polarities that have developed here.  One (which is mostly the Christians...which is not ironic) is that we should take all of the zombies in and starve together as one big failed mass of humans.  Their hearts are in the right place to be sure.  It's the noble, egalitarian, altruistic way to be.  It truly is "save as many as you can" which is the expressed goal of the Diner.  My point is that you can't save zombies...they have to save themselves.  We can lead them to the water but that's it.

The second camp is the realistic one IMO...(I'm in that camp) which is the one that says we want to survive and thrive in a post petroleum world with probable loss of law and order.  A world overrun and outnumbered by zombies.  People with their heads up their asses where the finite planet and it's constraints are concerned.  People who are asleep and dreaming the American Dream under the mesmerizing control of the hologram and who see no reason to do anything different with our society.  They think the scientists will figure it out, prosperity is just around the corner, and we're all entitled to a cornucopian world with guaranteed food stocked on every mega box store shelf in this JIT civilization.  It's doomed to failure.  Who is doing anything about it?

We, the people of the SUN  ;D, are trying our damn hardest to come up with something that will work.  We are not doing all of this work out of any religious sense.  Religion/spirituality has been discussed and is being planned for (as in be whatever you want, just coexist and treat each other respectfully and you can believe whatever you want to about the afterlife), but religion is not the guiding principle here, at least not collectively.  As in, we are not planning for a monastery, which is the type of entity that turns nobody away. 

You see, in a monastery you have people who all believe that this life is just a test for the next one (which maybe that's true).  It being just a test for the next life means that sometimes in order to pass that test you have to sacrifice yourself for zombies apparently.  So what would be the point of spending all of this time trying to create a viable alternative to a post petroleum lawless world if we were just to hand it all over to zombies...people who couldn't be bothered with reality until it made itself a reality in their gut by way of intense hunger pains. 

I'm not going to let my children starve to keep your children from starving.  I may allow mine to be a bit hungry for yours, but ultimately my children take precedence over yours.  The tribe we are setting up will hopefully keep my children fed.  That is my goal, to care for my children.  Everything I do is to take responsibility for them.  To provide for them, and to do so in a world that is FUBAR already and gettin' worse by the day.  I will not fail my children. 

I don't want to kill anybody.  I definitely don't want to turn starving children away, but I don't have the luxury of faith in a God that will some how work out this problem for me.  I'm not going to stab my son in the heart simply because this God got drunk and decided it would be entertaining to see if I'd actually do it.  My God is Nature, and nature doesn't give a shit about my sons starving to death.  Nature doesn't care about egalitarianism or any other ism for that matter.  I'm interested in dealing with the facts to ensure the survival of my children and tribe. 

Maybe the answer is what I've been saying since before the beginning of SUN and the foxstead.  The answer is to hide in plain site.  I don't know...maybe we put a zombie mote around the foxstead ;D  I know what's not going to happen if I can stop it.  My kids are not going to go hungry because you wouldn't pull your head out of your ass before TSHTF.  You've got your face buried in your fuckin' iphone waiting on that technoutopia that scientists are steady workin' on figurin' out for you.  The technoutopia that somehow defeats the laws of thermodynamics that have been dictating reality since life began. 

Agelbert, what you did on that beach was courageous and noble, it was indeed the right thing to do.  But that was only one person.  What would you have done if there were ten all out there drowning?  Would you still jump in knowing that you will not be able to save them all to save just one? 

RE said it before.  This is about triage.  We ain't workin' on a zombie soup kitchen, and we ain't makin' no monastery to take in the orphans born into a dead paradigm.  We're trying to come up with a viable means to keep post petroleum humans fed and comfortable in a world that's running out of petroleum. 

The way I see it, this is a problem that man has always had and will always have.  Ultimately it's why we fight with each other.  We naturally form cliques, or clans, or tribes, and then we band together to protect that unit.  This means fighting with other units.  This is just the way it is.  Only in a fictional utopia is this not the case.  We're not dealing with a fictional world at SUN...we are dealing with the very real and natural world. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 16, 2013, 08:35:20 AM
Seems to me that we have two polarities that have developed here.  One (which is mostly the Christians...which is not ironic) is that we should take all of the zombies in and starve together as one big failed mass of humans.  Their hearts are in the right place to be sure.  It's the noble, egalitarian, altruistic way to be.  It truly is "save as many as you can" which is the expressed goal of the Diner.  My point is that you can't save zombies...they have to save themselves.  We can lead them to the water but that's it.

The second camp is the realistic one IMO...(I'm in that camp) which is the one that says we want to survive and thrive in a post petroleum world with probable loss of law and order.  A world overrun and outnumbered by zombies.  People with their heads up their asses where the finite planet and it's constraints are concerned.  People who are asleep and dreaming the American Dream under the mesmerizing control of the hologram and who see no reason to do anything different with our society.  They think the scientists will figure it out, prosperity is just around the corner, and we're all entitled to a cornucopian world with guaranteed food stocked on every mega box store shelf in this JIT civilization.  It's doomed to failure.  Who is doing anything about it?

We, the people of the SUN  ;D, are trying our damn hardest to come up with something that will work.  We are not doing all of this work out of any religious sense.  Religion/spirituality has been discussed and is being planned for (as in be whatever you want, just coexist and treat each other respectfully and you can believe whatever you want to about the afterlife), but religion is not the guiding principle here, at least not collectively.  As in, we are not planning for a monastery, which is the type of entity that turns nobody away. 

You see, in a monastery you have people who all believe that this life is just a test for the next one (which maybe that's true).  It being just a test for the next life means that sometimes in order to pass that test you have to sacrifice yourself for zombies apparently.  So what would be the point of spending all of this time trying to create a viable alternative to a post petroleum lawless world if we were just to hand it all over to zombies...people who couldn't be bothered with reality until it made itself a reality in their gut by way of intense hunger pains.

It's true, our position is a logical outgrowth of belief in a personal living God, and an afterlife, and that was mostly my emphasis (although mostly in relation to eugenics rather than Zombie response).

BUT agelbert, IMO, did an excellent job focusing on the practical side of things. Exhibit A - his last emoticon-riddled post!

Altruism, cooperation, mercy, sharing, etc. are not just pie in the sky virtues, they are extremely practical. The mostly selfish response you are describing will lead to an ongoing state of clan warfare, with violence, hatred, bitterness, paranoia, etc., etc., an existence almost more miserable than existing at all. No one's families or children will be safe, let alone thrive.

How we do know this? Past collective experience! Disappointment, disruption, disorder, economic decline, outright collapse, up and down swings of all sorts, are a REALISTIC part of nature and human society. Even in the glory days of tribal living, a few seasons of unfavorable weather could wreak havoc on the collective psyche. The defining factor has always been how humans RESPOND to these inevitable occurrences in the natural world.

History, and esp modern history, is replete with examples of BAD responses, and really the last 100 years has been a prime case of humans trying to deal with the effects of all those bad responses, mostly piling more bad responses on top, trying to act like we moved past the original bad responses when we really haven't. THE WAR TO END ALL WARS. The way I see it, we can either learn from that and have a CHANCE, however slight, of making some ethical, spiritual and PRACTICAL progress, or we can try the same old tricks of clan mindset convenience and get stuck all over again. 

But I think agelbert has a much better hold on articulating this stuff, so I await his thoughts!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 09:12:28 AM
It's true, our position is a logical outgrowth of belief in a personal living God, and an afterlife, and that was mostly my emphasis (although mostly in relation to eugenics rather than Zombie response).

Well that being the case your "practical" response is only practical for the religious.  Many of us are not religious.  Where do we fit in?

Quote
BUT agelbert, IMO, did an excellent job focusing on the practical side of things. Exhibit A - his last emoticon-riddled post!

I agree entirely Ashvin.  Agelbert has proven to be an extremely invaluable asset to these discussions.  I have a lot of respect for him, and I have a lot to learn from him, and I have sense enough to know that.  He is, for all practical purposes, THE Diner elder.  His breakdown of the inevitable outcome of killing a zombie is pretty hard to argue with.  My only argument with that scenario is to do what we can to keep it from happening. Hence the hiding in plain site recommendation. 

Quote
Altruism, cooperation, mercy, sharing, etc. are not just pie in the sky virtues, they are extremely practical. The mostly selfish response you are describing will lead to an ongoing state of clan warfare, with violence, hatred, bitterness, paranoia, etc., etc., an existence almost more miserable than existing at all. No one's families or children will be safe, let alone thrive.

I agree with all of those qualities Ashvin.  I would hope the foxstead would be populated by people who are doing their best to practice those traits.  You are correct with pointing out the ongoing state of clan warfare, violence, hatred, paranoia and bitterness as well.  I can't argue with you there.  Except to say what is the alternative?  And also to say that those things are pretty much baked into the cake at this point are they not?  In a post collapse TSHTF, TEOTWAWKI scenario there will be little we can do to avoid those terrible realities.  So we must accept their relevance and deal with them.  Giving all of our shit away is not exactly a good way to survive.  It's fine to do as the Buddha (Jesus to for that matter) and give all of your shit away and take the life of a roving mendicant monk with your beggars bowl.  Which, that works in societies that honor and cherish said monks, but in Amerika, where we bomb your brown ass and take your gas as a matter of course...not so much...you mostly just starve while people shout from their car "get a job you lazy bum." 

Which, that is the same zombie specimen I've been talking about.

Quote
How we do know this? Past collective experience! Disappointment, disruption, disorder, economic decline, outright collapse, up and down swings of all sorts, are a REALISTIC part of nature and human society. Even in the glory days of tribal living, a few seasons of unfavorable weather could wreak havoc on the collective psyche. The defining factor has always been how humans RESPOND to these inevitable occurrences in the natural world.

So what are some examples in history of a viable solution to these repeating problems brought on by the collapse of complex societies?  I know one thing that history has shown us about collapse and that's cannibalism.  Just about every case of collapse, according to Jared Diamond in his book Collapse, results in people eating people.  I don't want my son's to eat people.  I'd rather deal with killing people than eating people.  At least it's a tad bit more human to kill an "enemy" than it is to eat a friend. 

Quote
History, and esp modern history, is replete with examples of BAD responses, and really the last 100 years has been a prime case of humans trying to deal with the effects of all those bad responses, mostly piling more bad responses on top, trying to act like we moved past the original bad responses when we really haven't. THE WAR TO END ALL WARS. The way I see it, we can either learn from that and have a CHANCE, however slight, of making some ethical, spiritual and PRACTICAL progress, or we can try the same old tricks of clan mindset convenience and get stuck all over again. 

I agree with your conclusions here except to say that maybe the people in those past examples really had no choice.  Maybe the lesson we can learn is that when collapse is making itself a reality you should deal with that reality and not hide behind the next life being more important.  Or this being just a test.  Maybe that's the case, but how do you explain that to your starving children?  "It's just a test from God son, I know your starving, but just hold on and eventually the pain will stop when you die and God will reward you with snicker bars lined with gold." 

Quote
But I think agelbert has a much better hold on articulating this stuff, so I await his thoughts!

As do I.   ;)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 16, 2013, 09:14:05 AM
Quote
You see, in a monastery you have people who all believe that this life is just a test for the next one (which maybe that's true).  It being just a test for the next life means that sometimes in order to pass that test you have to sacrifice yourself for zombies apparently.  So what would be the point of spending all of this time trying to create a viable alternative to a post petroleum lawless world if we were just to hand it all over to zombies...people who couldn't be bothered with reality until it made itself a reality in their gut by way of intense hunger pains.

Exactly, there is no point to it. The zombies are going to take what is yours, like it or not.

You are looking for a safe spot on the deck of the Titanic, there is None. We have to figure out a way to steer clear of the iceberg to survive.

The spiritual questions and answers on how to treat others are a valid discussion, but do not apply here. If we do not act soon as one entire human family we are all going down. Preventing the collapse is the only way out for us, not discussing how to treat the starving that show up the next day.


Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
Quote
You see, in a monastery you have people who all believe that this life is just a test for the next one (which maybe that's true).  It being just a test for the next life means that sometimes in order to pass that test you have to sacrifice yourself for zombies apparently.  So what would be the point of spending all of this time trying to create a viable alternative to a post petroleum lawless world if we were just to hand it all over to zombies...people who couldn't be bothered with reality until it made itself a reality in their gut by way of intense hunger pains.

Exactly, there is no point to it. The zombies are going to take what is yours, like it or not.

You are looking for a safe spot on the deck of the Titanic, there is None. We have to figure out a way to steer clear of the iceberg to survive.

The spiritual questions and answers on how to treat others are a valid discussion, but do not apply here. If we do not act soon as one entire human family we are all going down. Preventing the collapse is the only way out for us, not discussing how to treat the starving that show up the next day.

This iceberg is collapse, and just as the Titanic could not avoid that iceberg neither can we.  The "Entire human family" is asleep and dreaming the American Dream (unless they are brown and in the "third world" in which case they want to be asleep in that dream).  They are not going to wake up, they are zombies from the top to the bottom.  The 1% all the way to the 99% with a small fraction of a fraction of us "humans" who are trying to deal with these issues.  The rest don't give a shit, there's corn beer and football to watch and the scientists always figure it out so shut the fuck up and get out of the way of the idiot panel.

In short, preventing collapse is already too late.  It's not a predicament with no solution short of entities like SUN IMO...but I'm involved, my address is about to be the SUN HQ in the lower 48.  So yeah...I'm obviously biased, but fortunately RE and I agree on just about everything (NOT however, everything). 

So I guess convince me that there is a snow balls chance in hell of us preventing thermodynamically dictated collapse and we can talk about not dealing with Zombies.  Until then, zombies ain't allowed at the Foxstead.   :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 16, 2013, 09:33:42 AM
Quote
This iceberg is collapse, and just as the Titanic could not avoid that iceberg neither can we.  The "Entire human family" is asleep and dreaming the American Dream (unless they are brown and in the "third world" in which case they want to be asleep in that dream).  They are not going to wake up, they are zombies from the top to the bottom.  The 1% all the way to the 99% with a small fraction of a fraction of us "humans" who are trying to deal with these issues.  The rest don't give a shit, there's corn beer and football to watch and the scientists always figure it out so shut the fuck up and get out of the way of the idiot panel.

In short, preventing collapse is already too late.  It's not a predicament with no solution short of entities like SUN IMO...but I'm involved, my address is about to be the SUN HQ in the lower 48.  So yeah...I'm obviously biased, but fortunately RE and I agree on just about everything (NOT however, everything).

So I guess convince me that there is a snow balls chance in hell of us preventing thermodynamically dictated collapse and we can talk about not dealing with Zombies.  Until then, zombies ain't allowed at the Foxstead.   :icon_sunny:

If you are correct Lucid, and I am not saying you are not; your next address will most likely be Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

Preparation for which of the three you are moving into would be more appropriate in my view.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 09:47:50 AM
Ox Said:

Quote

If you are correct Lucid, and I am not saying you are not; your next address will most likely be Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

Preparation for which of the three you are moving into would be more appropriate in my view.

Well that's an interesting way of framing it Christian  :D

I guess Purgatory cause I'm not an idealist cornucopian who thinks we can socially engineer some type of utopian heaven.  I'm not going to hell cause I don't believe in hell, at least not a hell as a counterpoint to heaven. 

I'm I to understand that you are basically saying there is no solution to this predicament in this incarnation...or this reality?  You're saying that heaven is the ultimate goal and that this heaven is reached via Jesus Christ? 

I suppose it's inevitable.  Questions such as the questions we are pondering really do end up being religious/spiritual in nature.  Better to die and move onto heaven with Jesus than to fight, suffer, and bloody your conscience with matters of surviving TEOTWAWKI.  Which I'd probably just give all my shit away and become that mendicant monk if I hadn't decided to procreate.

Which brings up an interesting point.  I decided, after contemplating the issue of procreating in a collapse ready world, that life has been worth living.  On those grounds I surmised that I'm nobody to turn down new life created in love between two people.  Now I don't have the option of throwing my hands up and going to church to lift my worries in the promise of eternal salvation.

I'm a child of Nature.  I put my faith in Nature.  Nature doesn't care about my faith, and won't do anything on my behalf to keep me and mine from suffering.  I know this, and so I must do what I can do to prevent that suffering.  Although I will admit that in placing my faith in nature I place myself outside of natures wrath.  I realize this makes no logical sense and that it's a contradiction.  I believe it all the same. 

I have faith that Nature will provide for me if I don't ignore her.  To be clear, I'm not trying to "save Gaia" either.  Gaia can take care of herself and humans have been nothing much more than a surface nuisance...like fleas or crabs.  However, we are a part of nature...possibly the spearhead of consciousness.  Either case, either way it is, we have to do all that we can to maintain a liveable world for our progeny. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 16, 2013, 09:50:38 AM
You are looking for a safe spot on the deck of the Titanic, there is None. We have to figure out a way to steer clear of the iceberg to survive.

The spiritual questions and answers on how to treat others are a valid discussion, but do not apply here. If we do not act soon as one entire human family we are all going down. Preventing the collapse is the only way out for us, not discussing how to treat the starving that show up the next day.
GO, you are hilarious!!

The time for avoiding the iceberg was Jimmy Carter's second term.

We hit the iceberg in 2008.

The Titanic is already taking on water.

The question now is whether you can get to a lifeboat and get it far enough away not to get sucked under when the ship makes its final plunge.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 16, 2013, 09:56:22 AM
You are looking for a safe spot on the deck of the Titanic, there is None. We have to figure out a way to steer clear of the iceberg to survive.

The spiritual questions and answers on how to treat others are a valid discussion, but do not apply here. If we do not act soon as one entire human family we are all going down. Preventing the collapse is the only way out for us, not discussing how to treat the starving that show up the next day.
GO, you are hilarious!!

The time for avoiding the iceberg was Jimmy Carter's second term.

We hit the iceberg in 2008.

The Titanic is already taking on water.

The question now is whether you can get to a lifeboat and get it far enough away not to get sucked under when the ship makes its final plunge.

Understand your point of view JD. Until Doomsday however,  it is still just conjecture. Some would say you are a man of "Little Faith."
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 09:56:36 AM
just to be clear, I realize I contradicted myself saying that nature doesn't care about my faith and yet that nature will protect me from it's wrath. 

I know it makes no sense.

I believe it all the same.  I could go on and on in an attempt to make it make logical sense, but it doesn't.  This is how faith works, if your honest with your faith.  It doesn't make sense and can't be proven. 

Maybe it's how I stay optimistic enough on the pessimistic spectrum to keep going.  I have faith in Nature.  I'm a Druid after all :icon_mrgreen:

 :icon_sunny:

I'm not, however, into Druid apologetics :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 16, 2013, 10:40:10 AM
Understand your point of view JD. Until Doomsday however,  it is still just conjecture. Some would say you are a man of "Little Faith."
LOL, okay, the other question is whether we are on the Titanic or its sister ship the Britannic.  I don't see how any sane, knowledgeable person can question that the fossil-fuel driven industrial economy is going away.  But the reason the Titanic was a mythic disaster and the Britannic a historical footnote was because there were enough lifeboats for everyone on the Britannic and not on the Titanic.  So, yes, there is still room for faith that the people can be saved, but not the system.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 16, 2013, 10:44:01 AM
just to be clear, I realize I contradicted myself saying that nature doesn't care about my faith and yet that nature will protect me from it's wrath. 

The way I make sense of what you're saying is that nature doesn't care about your faith, but your faith in nature will steer your thinking and acting so as to avoid nature's wrath.  Does that sound right?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: monsta666 on June 16, 2013, 10:52:41 AM
I did a first aid course not that long ago and one of the first points made in that lesson is the number one objective must be to insure that no danger comes to you as the first aider. If you endanger yourself you risk becoming a casualty yourself and actually add to the problem rather than fix it. In many ways I feel this type of logic applies to this whole zombie argument.

The first priority one must make is to insure they are capable of meeting their needs. If the local community is self-sufficient then it can consider bringing more people in need into the community. An honest assessment must be made in what is readily available so if there is enough surplus then new people can be accepted. Refusing others on the grounds that one merely wishes to preserve wealth would not be morally sound. However if there is not enough or you lack the capacity to feed yourself nevermind other needy people it is foolish to take others on.

I am not sure what it is like in Christianity but in Islam every Muslim is supposed to practice Zakat. Zakat is a form of obligatory donation towards charity that all Muslims must practice. The only exemption made for Zakat is if the person themselves is in a state of poverty so they do not have to pay. In the case of a community which lacks the ability to provide for itself or can only provide for itself barely i.e. they are existing on a subsistence level then it is permissible not to accept others in under the grounds you can be considered to be living in poverty. This does make the person greedy or lacking in empathy it is just about being practical. As a personal note, I don't want to bring religion into such a future community but since there has been some religious talk enter this debate I thought it was worthwhile to put my own spin if people want to go down that route.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 16, 2013, 01:22:10 PM
LOL, okay, the other question is whether we are on the Titanic or its sister ship the Britannic.  I don't see how any sane, knowledgeable person can question that the fossil-fuel driven industrial economy is going away.  But the reason the Titanic was a mythic disaster and the Britannic a historical footnote was because there were enough lifeboats for everyone on the Britannic and not on the Titanic.  So, yes, there is still room for faith that the people can be saved, but not the system.

In the long run, the system can't be saved, but it can in the short run. Given this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism) (Guardian article on how the Pentagon is preparing for protests in the case of major disruptions) it would seem that TPTB are preparing for the industrial system to survive -- after all, they aren't stupid, and want to continue to be in power. Hence, I think the more likely analogy is not a ship hitting an iceberg and sinking, but a train derailment. In that event, there is a time of panic, but when the dust settled, "only", say, 20 percent of the cars are off the rails. So they are cut loose, and the train goes on. Call it the 80/20 solution, where "solution" is, of course, from the point of view of TPTB.

So the scenario is: financial collapse, followed by commercial collapse, resulting in empty shelves, power outages, etc. Emergency is declared, the military stomps out riots, and after a few months, things are back under control, but with some changes:
- Entitlements are downsized, if not eliminated. Which is to say that the 20% of "useless eaters" are cut loose -- probably herded into refugee camps.
- The 80% are fed with a new propaganda of "sustainable living", i.e, have their expectations lowered, which they accept because of having gone through the panic stage, and because they know the alternative is life in the camps.

I don't really know how realistic this scenario is, but I think it more likely than a full political collapse, followed by social collapse. For at least the next 40 or more years. How it plays out internationally is one variable I can't really guess at. Does it require that US and Chinese and European powers be in cahoots? I don't know.

But if it does play out this way, how to prepare. One obvious thing is to have a few months supply of basics to get through the panic months. But beyond that, I figure doomsteading has no better odds than positioning oneself so that one is a useful eater in the eyes of TPTB, i.e., be doing a necessary job in an industrial system. Though for quality of life reasons, the former is preferable. For useless eaters like myself, the key thing is to avoid landing in a camp, unless one finds a life of queuing for rice and beans and to use the toilet worth living.


Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 01:46:54 PM

Because even "leechy" human beings are born (or conceived) with a right to life. I believe that should be a part of the moral fabric of any community, no matter what scale or organizational structure. And even leeches can learn by example, "it is better to give than to receive". Obviously the goal for any community is for its members to grow into this moral compass towards non-leechlike behavior. No person or community can give what they do not already have, but that is a true natural limitation.

Just being born doesn't confer any rights whatsoever.  It just gives you opportunity to live, no guarantee you will.  When a cat has a litter of kittens, if there are more of them than there are spots to dine at, the weak ones get pushed out of the way.  Their test for survival comes right at Birth.

Homo Sapiens takes a bit longer to develop, and except in times of real famine the tribe can usually support the children up to puberty, but once they themselves can reproduce, they have to be able to pull their own weight.  If somebody can make it out in the Wilderness for a year, you know they can pull their own weight.

There is no absolute obligation for the Tribe to provide for someone in perpetuity simply because they were born.  If the person does not value add to the community, there is no reason to provide support for that person.  You could just let them hang around and starve over time, but this is unpleasant both for the starving person and for the rest of the community.  The Test for Survival ends the life of those who cannot at least self-support quickly.  This then leaves more resources for new children being born, some of whom will value add to the community and the cycle continues.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 16, 2013, 02:36:29 PM
These are exactly "the facts of life", no ifs and or buts. In Collapse as it has been described and is in the process of unfolding there really is no place for wishy washy dreamy fabrications of magic and the superstitions that HS has clung to in her precipitous very short life. Please spare me from leaders who fall on their knees and cross themselves before handing out the ammunition or the life jackets. In addition, there will not be the possibility of saving every infant with a mongoloid head, three arms or spinal bifida.Especially the progeny of fuckers who have disabled their own genetic material through self destructive behaviors. Ditto for incontinent busybodies who do not have the courage or integrity to suck up the end and drag themselves to the ice flow or sinkhole. Karpatok
Title: Luciddreams and all interested parties
Post by: agelbert on June 16, 2013, 04:19:48 PM
Luciddreams said,
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Agelbert, what you did on that beach was courageous and noble, it was indeed the right thing to do.

Thank you, my friend. My old man, who had difficulty believing in electricity, let alone God  :icon_mrgreen:, when he learned of the efforts my brother Larry and I exerted to save Jon, said, with tears in his eyes (that old soldier NEVER cried), this is how men prove themselves (in a broken voice).

I was grateful for his approval and praise. However, I asked myself, does that mean he DIDN'T think I had "proven" myself before? ??? I know he believed Larry had proven himself because Larry did a hero thing in Viet Nam by planting explosives in a downed helicopter and dragging the wounded gunner to his crew's chopper (He got a Silver Star for that).

And being the incorrigible introspective geek that I am, I decided to ponder the issue. Was this one of those, "throw yourself on the grenade" things done from instinctive bravery or not?  :icon_scratch:  Was I marching into hell for heaven's sake? Fuck no! I was scared shitless. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared003.gif) "My" children were both less than 10 years old! This was a no win situation.  :P  I either had to trust in God or not. The issue of this life being a test for the next one was, of course, part of my being as a Christian BUT, while I was watching those HUGE breakers dwarf Jon, the last thing on my mind was heaven. I wanted to LIVE here a while longer, you see. That ocean where Jon was and "living a while longer" did not compute!  :o

Here's how it went (it took a few seconds at the most):

Jon is going to drown because he ignored my advice-->

Jon is going to DIE!-->

If I go out there, I'm going to die too-->

If I don't, I'll hate myself for being a pussy [uh, those feminists in the crowd should NOTE that my sister, my mother and my wife as well as Larry's wife had ABSOLUTELY NO compulsion to go out there to save Jon - Gail, a feminist Cosmopolitan Magazine lover and fierce defender of "girl's night out", Larry's wife, ran up to me with a pair of swim fins (that were too small for me so I refused them) saying, "You  aren't a great swimmer so you should use mine".]-->

Somebody was running to drive to a police station and get some rope but I knew that wouldn't be in time.-->

Only God can get me out of this one because I cannot stay on this beach and live with regrets and what-ifs.-->

Praise God for saving me and helping me save Jon (I began repeating to myself -->

I hyperventilated for 60 seconds and dove in with Larry.


So, thinking back, my behavior didn't seem too John Waynish or noble to me. It was a box canyon. It was a life situation none of us EVER want to be faced with.  :emthdown: But I had no way out of it.(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared002.gif) In summary, I did what I did because I had PRACTICED in my mind, as a Christian, the notion that humans are expected to sacrifice themselves for each other, even if the outcome looks rationally hopeless (No greater love has one man for another than he that gives his life for the other). I assumed God has the big picture of cause and effect, loves me and my offspring more than I am even capable of loving, and if He allows me to drown, He's got a plan to take care of the kids. BUT I knew God is really good at working miracles and this was an excellent opportunity for Him to do some fancy footwork.

So, yes, it was the right thing to do. But I just did what I HAD to do and not be a hypocrite. I honestly did NOT want to go into that mess out there. I let dad continue with his illusions about "men proving themselves" but my behavior was irrational, not brave. I survived miraculously (as detailed in the long post on it. You, as an EMT, after reading the whole account will see that It was, for all practical purposes, impossible for me to come out of that alive). I stayed away from beaches after that. Does that sound like a brave man to you?

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But that was only one person. What would you have done if there were ten all out there drowning? Would you still jump in knowing that you will not be able to save them all to save just one?

I would keep trying to save them one by one until I saved them or drowned.

Fate dictates where I'll be and when. I just dictate the behavior I will engage in.

The situation you describe is extreme. It lacks nuance. Isn't it better to picture yourself risking yourself 10 times out of ten and only sacrificing your life on ONE of those occasions? A priori overwhelming weight on your survival as the caregiver and provider of your children (as Monsta was taught in his first aid life saving course - wrongly - I think of that course as further evidence of a selfish, dysfunctional society(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-053.gif)) starts building a psychological wall of justification for withdrawing help in many NON-extreme situations where your efforts will be successful, even if they appear irrational on the surface.

The fear of overextending yourself (and thereby failing your offspring) must be balanced by your loyalty to your species. If it isn't, selfishness will rule your behavior instead of harmony, despite your best intentions. Sophie's choice, a horribly extreme situation, DOES happen and it is gut wrenching but the NORM is nuanced, measured respect for life in all its forms.

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I decided, after contemplating the issue of procreating in a collapse ready world, that life has been worth living. On those grounds I surmised that I'm nobody to turn down new life created in love between two people

GOOD! I celebrate love in all its forms because it breeds harmony and mutual respect.  :emthup:

That said, you have a scientific biological education and you understand that procreation is a brief amount of hormonally influenced behavior designed to multiply a species. WHO designed that is a rather large bone of contention but that's not the issue I wish to bring to the fore.

You are accutely aware that humans need to limit their numbers out of respect for the other life forms on this planet. In order to be true to the principle of biosphere harmony, you must defend a balanced niche for all species.

This necessarily means your species should be allowed to thrive as long as it isn't overpopulating (and thereby crowding out other species). Your biological imperative must include ALL of your fellow humans' survival, not just your DNA (you don't have to wait to have a minimum number of breeding couples to understand the underlying principle of a REQUIRED intra-species diverse gene pool for species survival - you and your seed aren't enough).

Hormones, of course, don't do that but, as a self aware being, you are certainly aware that the desire to multiply isn't necessarily a rational one. You are part of a giant package called the biosphere. Your natural tendency is to push hard at the boundaries to rule as big a roost as possible but that NATURAL tendency can lead to biosphere harm.

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I'm a child of Nature. I put my faith in Nature. Nature doesn't care about my faith, and won't do anything on my behalf to keep me and mine from suffering. I know this, and so I must do what I can do to prevent that suffering. Although I will admit that in placing my faith in nature I place myself outside of natures wrath. I realize this makes no logical sense and that it's a contradiction. I believe it all the same.

I have faith that Nature will provide for me if I don't ignore her. To be clear, I'm not trying to "save Gaia" either. Gaia can take care of herself and humans have been nothing much more than a surface nuisance...like fleas or crabs. However, we are a part of nature...possibly the spearhead of consciousness. Either case, either way it is, we have to do all that we can to maintain a liveable world for our progeny.

Nature, as you have alluded to, isn't a framework for morals. It doesn't decide what is good and proper behavior for humans. Our natural instincts will destroy us along with a large piece of the biosphere because our self aware nature has limited itself to increasing our access to energy/food without planning and behaving accordingly to ENSURE that the biosphere we depend on is not harmed in the process. Our threat horizons are cave manish and we need to SEE AND FEEL the death of some strain of photsynthetic algae as a lion attacking us in a forest in order for our species to survive and thrive. Furthermore, we need to SEE and FEEL the threat of death to fellow humans from lack of food,/energy/education/awareness/principles/integrity/respect as the threat of death to our own offspring. That's balanced biosphere logic devoid of hormones. 

The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

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Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Distorted religious views that we can trash it at our liesure notwithstanding, self awareness INDEED makes us stewards of this planet. The FACT that we ARE trashing the planet means we are the greatest threat to the biosphere this planet has ever encountered.

Sure, it can recover when we are gone but the ability to trash the place means we have the ability to REALIZE we are trashing it and can MEND OUR WAYS. That is happening now slowly but surely. Suicidal gestures ARE NOT hard wired in us; we just have to adjust the threat horizon 7 generatons beyond the "lion in the jungle" thing.

We can do it. Atheists, nature lovers, gaia worshippers, Christians, etc. CAN DO IT. But we WILL have to do it TOGETHER. :circle: We have the self aware intelligence to achieve biosphere harmony here.

Harmony is a pretty word, is it not?(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-103.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-042.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-062.gif) The very real possibility of gun shots from survivor communities killing "zombies" attempting to steal food is cacophony  to me. Yes, it can happen. But most of the time ( 9 times out of 10 maybe ) a happy medium will be produced IF the survivor community mindset is A PRIORI altruistic and gift giving instead of (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-031.gif) scarcity and clan resource priorty orientated.

I'm not saying you should overextend yourself. I just recommend that you let the golden rule to the seventh generation be your guide (all earthlings included) recognizing that, the attitude that all REALLY belongs to ALL, is the most successful strategy for a balanced biosphere.

We can never be like the other critters here no matter how much we want to "worship and emulate nature as its children". That won't work. Just ask the MacDonalds and Campbells from Scotland that started slicing each other up because one group was ignoring the hospitality rules.(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-017.gif)

No, in order to be truly NATURAL like the rest of the earthlings, we would have to VOLUNTARILY genetically modify ourselves to NOT be self aware tool makers. :cwmddd:  After the new non-self aware naked apes were full grown and reproducing on their own, we self aware humans would have to kill ourselves.  :emthdown:

THEN the biosphere would return to the balance.

We can't go back to that. I KNOW that isn't God's plan. I think everybody here (you too, WHD  ;)) knows we are DIFFERENT enough from the rest of nature that it will ALWAYS be a struggle for us to fit in. Anybody that sees it differently is naive.

We are not an aberration of nature; we just have to adjust our threat horizon so that we consider fellow earthlings OUR OWN FAMILY TOO. :sunny:


And NOW we return you to the Doomstead Diner Afternoon Soap  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-106.gif)         :argue:         (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-anime-074.gif)           (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-103.gif)          (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-001.gif)         (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared004.gif)              (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif)              (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-games-022.gif)        (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-064.gif)       (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-042.gif)      :icon_mrgreen:


Changing the subject to a somewhat more lively one  ;), I wish to draw your attention to our warrior princes, (I have demoted her from goddess - So there! (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-005.gif)) Special K.

This marvel of interesting descriptive phrases and vocabulary  :icon_mrgreen: has recently had "words" for me.(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-034.gif)
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-anime-074.gif)       (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-020.gif)               (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-004.gif)


Does this lady have spunk or what! I haven't seen such passion since my wife noticed I glanced at a pretty girl!  ;D

K must be mad because I burried  the hatchet with my Christian brother Ashvin, ya think?

Karpatok, flattery will get you nowhere. I'm married already. You may be a hot number but it is my Christian duty to be true to my wife. Sorry. :icon_mrgreen:

Signed,
Your friendly Eunoch (I looked into becoming a member of the castrati but they said I'm too much of an old fart  :().(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-036.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-tv-003.gif)
Title: Re: Luciddreams and all interested parties
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 04:35:02 PM

The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

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Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 16, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Just being born doesn't confer any rights whatsoever.  It just gives you opportunity to live, no guarantee you will.  When a cat has a litter of kittens, if there are more of them than there are spots to dine at, the weak ones get pushed out of the way.  Their test for survival comes right at Birth.

We are not cats and kittens, but even if we were, this is a different issue. It's not about whether you will manage to live in a naturally scarce environment, but how your life can be taken from you.

A right to life is exercised against someone, like a contract right. The enlightenment political philosophers, such as Locke, figured that was the State, Church and anyone generally in charge of making centralized decisions, and I think the logic still applies today and can be applied to future communities.

We are born with a natural right against OTHER PEOPLE taking our lives (not against nature or "acts of God"). This should be as true of a Tribe as it is an entire Nation-State. When the central authority wants to take your life or make it conditional on some test, it should be presumed they have absolutely no right to do this, and, in fact, it has an affirmative DUTY to protect your right to life from violation by other human beings and state actors. This includes external invading forces, internal murderers and the central authority itself (of course, that is why Montesquieu's "separation of powers" is required)

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There is no absolute obligation for the Tribe to provide for someone in perpetuity simply because they were born.  If the person does not value add to the community, there is no reason to provide support for that person.  You could just let them hang around and starve over time, but this is unpleasant both for the starving person and for the rest of the community.  The Test for Survival ends the life of those who cannot at least self-support quickly.  This then leaves more resources for new children being born, some of whom will value add to the community and the cycle continues.

True, no one has a right to be cared for their entire lives. But I say you let them hang around and starve slowly in front of the entire community, so at least we are faced with the consequences of our decision to let them die. Either way, I think it is clear that the "test for survival" goes WAY beyond "failing to care for non value adders", but into the realm of Hobbes' Leviathan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book)), where the sovereign is responsible for securing the community against... potential non value adders, interestingly combined with his "state of nature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_nature)", where there are NO rights, only the freedom to try your best and live.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 16, 2013, 05:15:22 PM
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Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE


What if the survival of the tribe threatens the biosphere by consuming a scarce resource that will ultimately doom the tribe? Our science has reached a point where we can KNOW what resources to protect and nourish even if our numbers are curtailed in the biosphere balance tradeoff. It's not about having enough stuff; it's about having enough mutual respect. With mutual respect for ALL earthlings, a permaculture paradise GUARANTEES that scarcity situation is remote. And if it arrives (large meteor impact) even in a "perfect" balanced biosphere, the MINDSET of sharing and respect will DICTATE an equitable and balanced approach to survival without every human out to kill everybody else that is in need.

Are you saying that the gift economy doesn't work? Because I'M saying it is our ONLY CHANCE to make it, not just as a primitive "gift" economy but a sophisticated one based on science; something NEW AND IMPROVED, RE.

Does it hurt the biosphere to the 7th generation of humans AND the equivalent time span of the other earthlings? DON'T DO IT. Otherwise, DO IT. That can get pretty complicated be we have the brains to accomplish It. We don't have to go back to sticks and stones.

Justifying plundering resources to ensure progeny viability is tail chasing biosphere destruction. Our whole problem as a species has been more about lack of respect for the other earthlings even than the wars among ourselves.

Sure, you can let this tail chasing we are in now proceed apace and eat itself alive until a big die off occurs and start the same illogical and destructive cycle based on justifying absolutely no limits on destructive resource annihilating behavior just for progeny viability.

That shows ameba intelligence but not much more. Surely we can do better than that as self aware beings.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 05:21:35 PM

True, no one has a right to be cared for their entire lives. But I say you let them hang around and starve slowly in front of the entire community, so at least we are faced with the consequences of our decision to let them die.

I don't agree.  While they are gradually starving, they are still consuming resources others need to live.  By keeping around the dependent folks, you diminish the total available resources for everyone, and weaken the tribe as a whole this way.

The Test for Survival pits the Reproductive Age tribe member against Nature, not other Homo Sapiens.  It is something every child in the community has opportunity to prepare for in childhood while supported by the Tribe.  When Puberty Hits, it is time to Put Up or Shut Up, Shit or Get Off the Pot.  MANY different abilities people have could help you Survive.  Being Big & Strong as LD is confers him a Survival Advantage.  Being Wicked Smart like you are confers you a Survival Advantage, least as long as you apply the smarts in the right way anyhow. LOL.  Being At One with the Goddess and Mother Nature confers on WHD a Survival Advantage.  If you do not have at least ONE survival advantage, guess what?  YOU DON'T SURVIVE!  You were not MEANT to survive, when God handed out your Gifts on Birth, he shorted you.  If He wanted you to LIVE to reproduce, he would have handed you at least one decent Tool to use for Survival.

As Dean Wormer said to Flounder in Animal House:

(http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/893/6f1/dc3/resized/dean-wormer-meme-generator-fat-drunk-and-stupid-is-no-way-to-go-through-life-son-730e05.jpg?1346865287.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 05:31:18 PM

What if the survival of the tribe threatens the biosphere by consuming a scarce resource that will ultimately doom the tribe?

The whole POINT of the Test for Survival is to insure that the Survival of the Tribe does NOT threaten the rest of the Biosphere through out of control breeding!

As long as you apply this, you will not HAVE to make the kind of CHOICES you articulated in your post which other primates, mammals and birds use for insuring THEIR survival.

The Test for Survival is FAIR.  It is applied across the board to EVERY Male in the Tribe.  The Females have their OWN Test for Survival in Childbirth, they do not need another one.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 16, 2013, 05:38:04 PM
It's true, our position is a logical outgrowth of belief in a personal living God, and an afterlife, and that was mostly my emphasis (although mostly in relation to eugenics rather than Zombie response).

Well that being the case your "practical" response is only practical for the religious.  Many of us are not religious.  Where do we fit in?

No, the spiritual and practical issues can be separated out for convenience's sake. Our spiritual beliefs necessitate our conclusions about how to respond in various situations, but even if you are an Atheist, Agnostic or whoever and don't share those beliefs, the argument from practicality still applies. If it's truly practical to live by those virtues, it's practical for EVERYONE.

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I agree with all of those qualities Ashvin.  I would hope the foxstead would be populated by people who are doing their best to practice those traits.  You are correct with pointing out the ongoing state of clan warfare, violence, hatred, paranoia and bitterness as well.  I can't argue with you there.  Except to say what is the alternative?  And also to say that those things are pretty much baked into the cake at this point are they not?  In a post collapse TSHTF, TEOTWAWKI scenario there will be little we can do to avoid those terrible realities.  So we must accept their relevance and deal with them.  Giving all of our shit away is not exactly a good way to survive.  It's fine to do as the Buddha (Jesus to for that matter) and give all of your shit away and take the life of a roving mendicant monk with your beggars bowl.  Which, that works in societies that honor and cherish said monks, but in Amerika, where we bomb your brown ass and take your gas as a matter of course...not so much...you mostly just starve while people shout from their car "get a job you lazy bum." 

Well if all those things are "baked into the cake", that means none of us have free agency. The argument is, we do have free agency here, and rejecting the clan mindset and giving a good deal of your shit away IS the best way to survive, as it is the best way to avoid situations like the ones that arose in the wake of the last Great Economic Declines of the Western world. 

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So what are some examples in history of a viable solution to these repeating problems brought on by the collapse of complex societies?  I know one thing that history has shown us about collapse and that's cannibalism.  Just about every case of collapse, according to Jared Diamond in his book Collapse, results in people eating people.  I don't want my son's to eat people.  I'd rather deal with killing people than eating people.  At least it's a tad bit more human to kill an "enemy" than it is to eat a friend.

Not many, and that's kind of the point... we have responded to various facets of collapse badly just about every time.

There was that guy Jesus, though, who gave us the perfect example of how to live our lives and respond in DEADLY situations. Unless you believe he died and stayed dead...  even then, it's hard to deny he revolutionized much of an Empire and led to the establishment of those monastic communities you were talking about that survived its Collapse.

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I agree with your conclusions here except to say that maybe the people in those past examples really had no choice.  Maybe the lesson we can learn is that when collapse is making itself a reality you should deal with that reality and not hide behind the next life being more important.  Or this being just a test.  Maybe that's the case, but how do you explain that to your starving children?  "It's just a test from God son, I know your starving, but just hold on and eventually the pain will stop when you die and God will reward you with snicker bars lined with gold."

If the people in Wiemar Germany who faced numerous difficulties and tests of their moral resolve truly had no choice how to ultimately respond, then yes we are Doomed.

I don't really know how I would explain any of this to my children, but yes God would be involved in the explanation. And no matter what, I wouldn't tell them "it's all about survival of the fittest now, kill or be killed, so give nothing and take whatever you can from whomever you can, and especially keep an eye on THOSE people over there, because THEY are the reason we are in this mess!"

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But I think agelbert has a much better hold on articulating this stuff, so I await his thoughts!

As do I.   ;)
[/quote]

Look at that, we agreed and, what's more, we were both proven right!  :emthup:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
just to be clear, I realize I contradicted myself saying that nature doesn't care about my faith and yet that nature will protect me from it's wrath. 

The way I make sense of what you're saying is that nature doesn't care about your faith, but your faith in nature will steer your thinking and acting so as to avoid nature's wrath.  Does that sound right?

I answered you and posted it and I think somebody else posted...hate when that happens.

Anyways, yeah, you just about nailed it.  I would only add the mystical/esoteric transmission of knowledge I get from doing things like diggin' permaculture holes, makin' compost...and facilitating the growth of edible/medicinal plants.  Or being surrounded by trees in the woods.  Nature is my God/Goddess.  I put my faith in nature, and that faith has nothing to do with logic and reason.  Logic is antithetical to faith.  I have faith even against my logic. 

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 16, 2013, 07:23:55 PM
The Test for Survival pits the Reproductive Age tribe member against Nature, not other Homo Sapiens.  It is something every child in the community has opportunity to prepare for in childhood while supported by the Tribe.  When Puberty Hits, it is time to Put Up or Shut Up, Shit or Get Off the Pot.  MANY different abilities people have could help you Survive.  Being Big & Strong as LD is confers him a Survival Advantage.  Being Wicked Smart like you are confers you a Survival Advantage, least as long as you apply the smarts in the right way anyhow. LOL.  Being At One with the Goddess and Mother Nature confers on WHD a Survival Advantage.  If you do not have at least ONE survival advantage, guess what?  YOU DON'T SURVIVE!  You were not MEANT to survive, when God handed out your Gifts on Birth, he shorted you.  If He wanted you to LIVE to reproduce, he would have handed you at least one decent Tool to use for Survival.

That's not God's M.O., IMO. God creates everyone, including the child born with a disease that will require life-long care. He expects this child's right to life will be respected and protected just like anyone else's, no matter what the cost. He expects that humans will encounter this test and other similar ones and make an attempt to demonstrate selfless love, rather than selfish survival mentality.

The basic issue here is that I just don't believe in your nature trumps everything, survival of the fittest tribal community paradigm. Not only is it not a place I would want to be in for ethical reasons, I think it will easily get corrupted, used in all kinds of exploitative ways and will ultimately be a miserable failure.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 16, 2013, 07:29:18 PM
RE said,
Quote
The whole POINT of the Test for Survival is to insure that the Survival of the Tribe does NOT threaten the rest of the Biosphere through out of control breeding!

Yep. And my whole point is that, as long as you aren't dead NOW, that doesn't mean you won't be dead SOON because of your resource consuming (eating your children, etc.) behavior NOW.

So YEAH, the "TEST" has to be FAIR. But you are setting yourself up as arbiter of fairness when you favor one progeny of a certain species, or a tribe within that species, over another. ANY approach that does not have a long enough threat horizon on the "test" is short sited.

The coming of age test that Monsta advocated and I supported but Ashvin didn't is a case in point. I agree with YOU that eugenics is ALREADY PRACTICED in human society through poor nutrition (lack of folic acid in pregnancy guarantees below average intelligence and heavy metal pollution in processed foods for the poor prevent normal brain development) resulting in smarter endowment fund kids. What a coincidence! By the time they get old enough to ride a BIKE, the difference is notable! The intelligence gap is GRAND CANYON SIZED by the time they reach the age to take the SAT! Eugenics is alive and wreaking HAVOC.

So I was just trying to make the best of a pretty lousy situation in our present society. Golden Oxen didn't go for it because he RIGHTLY smelled a "corruption rat" that would game the test to favor the 1% or/and some other influential group, setting the stage for more and more eugenics oppression, coercion and conscience free culling; the old slippery slope trick.

Is a test fair if you made sure the kids of clan B (inside the tribe) didn't get appropriate nutrition? NO.

The whole OUTLOOK on, not just tribe, but intraspecies and interspecies activity must be measured and viewed as a biosphere PACKAGE. You don't want to go there. Why not?

You are tying yourself in caloric intake knots, RE. I refuse to believe that this is the basic driver of human behavior that justifies WHATEVER to propagate the seed. It's so short sighted it is tragic. 

You want a FAIR TEST? I'll give you a FAIR TEST. Every decade a supercomputer does a biosphere balance test (several thousand populated geographic areas  all over the planet with distinct boundaries established) checking the diversity of the millions of microbes in the soil and in YOU and the health and interactivity as well as population levels of hundreds of thousands of insects, spiders and thousands of larger life forms and the foliage and fungi  they depend on. Air and water quality and gas distribution is measured. A divergence of 5% from the base line next decade is investigated and if Homo Sap is responsible, YOUR TRIBE IN YOUR AREA FAILED THE TEST. Appropriate corrective measures are taken. NO blood and guts need be spilled. If the issue is population, vasectomies are in order among a percentage of the fertile males chosen RAMDOMLY. If there is another cause and it can be remedied with education or prison, then whatever is needed is done. Rehabilitation will be attempted if possible. 

I just don't get it with your thinking. Eighty PERCENT or MORE of the biosphere trashing by Homo SAP has NOT been caused by the WEAK, USELESS EATERS, SICK, PARALYTICS, OLD FUCKS, ETC. That's just tribal survival in subsistence economies. OUR PROBLEM is from GENIUSES LIKE YOU inventing nitroglycerin, dynamite and atomic bombs. YOU KNOW THAT, RE. You've written about it until you are blue in the face!

But when you picture the Doomstead EPCOT (Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow  :icon_mrgreen:), you're back to fighting over meat scraps against the local bully and may the baddest, strongest motherfucker win. That's not logical.

Your Indiana Jones video says it all. A dude can whip the shit out of Indiana or slice him and dice him with a saber but Indiana just blows him away. How much "survival of the fittest" was involved in pulling a trigger?

We can't go back to tribes when "men were men" and all that. A mental retard with a crossbow can kill your star pupils who just passed the "3 months in the wilderness and killed a lion test" or whatever. There is TOO MUCH POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY in the hands of the "weak".

Our only chance is interspecies cooperation. And to monitor and KNOW whether we are "passing the test" or not, we need a computer that moves faster than the HFT Wall Street super computers with millions of sensors all over the planet. THAT'S YOUR "FAIR TEST".

http://www.youtube.com/v/rB5jJuMP84E#&fs=1
HFT how it works
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 07:34:16 PM
That's not God's M.O., IMO. God creates everyone, including the child born with a disease that will require life-long care. He expects this child's right to life will be respected and protected just like anyone else's, no matter what the cost. He expects that humans will encounter this test and other similar ones and make an attempt to demonstrate selfless love, rather than selfish survival mentality.

Ashvin, when the Hospitals are gone and the Medicines are gone, NOBODY is getting "Life-Long" care.  This is an artifact of outrageous SURPLUS, which is going the way of the Dinosaur quicker than we are as a species.  Selfless Love is a nice ideal, but in time of Contraction it needs to be tempered with CFS.  Triage is in the offing, like it or not.  You can't Save Everybody.  You can only Save As Many As You Can.

Quote
The basic issue here is that I just don't believe in your nature trumps everything, survival of the fittest tribal community paradigm. Not only is it not a place I would want to be in for ethical reasons, I think it will easily get corrupted, used in all kinds of exploitative ways and will ultimately be a miserable failure.

Time will tell.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 16, 2013, 08:16:22 PM
something I thought at some point today when ruminating over this thread is that community is the answer to this debate.  As in, locate the foxstead in an area that is already flush with transition type people.  Say Asheville NC, or the surrounding area.  Now these people may not see things exactly the same, but they see the need for permaculture and transition.  They are at least dealing with the lions share of our problems...at least they see the problems and are trying to deal with them.

So we locate the foxstead in an area that has a lot of non-zombies and then zombies are less of a threat, or problem, and we don't have to worry about them as much.  It seems the whole matter is a catch 22 with no real answer.  Both sides have good points.  Ashvin and Agelbert are fighting the good fight and doing a good job at it.  RE and I are on the same page mostly...I think...with our practicality and CFS...want to survive or not?  These are the facts...lacking in nuance I admit. 

Still, nuance isn't always correct.  I'm not violent.  I don't want to hurt anybody.  However I don't want to fail my children more than I don't want to hurt anybody.  I don't care about genetics being passed on and whatnot.  It's not about genetics...it's about I love my children and want the best for them.  I see a fucked up future and I know I have to use my mind to navigate right now.  Zombies are real, a real threat now, much less in that chaotic future that we all know is possible any day now. 

I think the tribal model that RE advocates is good, tried and true, it works.  But I also agree with Agelbert that there is no reason why we should revert back to sticks and stones devoid of microscopes and scientific knowledge in general.  That doesn't mean that we won't revert back to that. 

KA brought up some good points about what the government/corporatocracy is preparing for.  Good chance that's what's going to happen to.  I see fedghettos in the cities and the machine just giving up control of the areas outside of the cities.  Like Orwell's proles...the Party just doesn't have the energy to give a shit about the proles.  So we need to be the proles in a foxstead hiding in plain site, and we need to do this in an area of the country that is already awash with awakened people. 

I think that is ultimately what I have gleaned from this thread.  The number one priority with where to place the Foxstead needs to be to locate in an area with an already high percentage of non-zombies per capita.  You're most likely going to have to pay for that.  You're gonna have to pay dearly for that. 

I ain't movin' to Alaska either RE...I'd miss the night too much. 

Moving to the right location isn't going to be enough either...probably.  You're gonna have to have community outreach. 

So the upshot of all this is that we need to locate next to an area that already has permaculture farms abounding.  The area surrounding Asheville NC fits this bill.  At least in the South East which is where I'm located...and gonna stay located. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 16, 2013, 08:36:53 PM
I put my faith in nature, and that faith has nothing to do with logic and reason.  Logic is antithetical to faith.  I have faith even against my logic.

I see this as an impoverished view of nature (not to mention of logic and faith, but we've had that fruitless argument). Thanks to nominalism, modern thinking has lost sight of a truth the medieval thinkers knew well: that nature is the outward manifestation of reason. So by being against logic, you are against nature. If the trees have something to say to you, you and the trees are in logical harmony, for without a shared logic there can be no communication.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 16, 2013, 09:16:38 PM
Quote
So the upshot of all this is that we need to locate next to an area that already has permaculture farms abounding.  The area surrounding Asheville NC fits this bill.  At least in the South East which is where I'm located...and gonna stay located. 

Excellent plan!(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-036.gif)                     (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-003.gif)                  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-013.gif)                   

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-022.gif)                        (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-042.gif)                    (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-045.gif)                   (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-041.gif)                      (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-062.gif)

Good Community is the KEY!
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/big/big-smiley-face.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 09:43:46 PM
I ain't movin' to Alaska either RE...I'd miss the night too much.

There's still night in summer, just shorter hours.  Build your bedroom windows with shutters, you won't know if it is night or day outside.  Winter you'll get plenty of night.  Spring and Fall little different from the lower 48.  So basically you are talking about 3 months where you have a couple less hours of darkness than in SC.  Pretty silly reason to blow off the lowest population zone spot on the NA Continent.

You just don't want to leave your locale of the Carolinas, so you are lobbying for it non-stop.  Riddle me this though Batman...if the Investors all vote to drop the Foxstead in say the Driftless region of WI, are you gonna Walk Away from the project because it didn't end up where you hoped it would?

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 16, 2013, 10:13:05 PM

You want a FAIR TEST? I'll give you a FAIR TEST. Every decade a supercomputer does a biosphere balance test (several thousand populated geographic areas  all over the planet with distinct boundaries established) checking the diversity of the millions of microbes in the soil and in YOU and the health and interactivity as well as population levels of hundreds of thousands of insects, spiders and thousands of larger life forms and the foliage and fungi  they depend on. Air and water quality and gas distribution is measured. A divergence of 5% from the base line next decade is investigated and if Homo Sap is responsible, YOUR TRIBE IN YOUR AREA FAILED THE TEST. Appropriate corrective measures are taken. NO blood and guts need be spilled. If the issue is population, vasectomies are in order among a percentage of the fertile males chosen RAMDOMLY. If there is another cause and it can be remedied with education or prison, then whatever is needed is done. Rehabilitation will be attempted if possible. 

What do you do when the Supercomputer runs outta Juice?  How do you prevent hackers from modifying the program to make sure they Pass the Test while other Fail it?  Techno-solutions fail due to complexity.  KISS principle applies here.

To be clear here, the whole idea of a Test for Survival applies only in the situation of resource scarcity when you are at the limit of the carrying capacity of the land you inhabit, and that includes the biomass of the other creatures inhabiting said land.  If there is still surplus and further expansion doesn't mess too much with the biodiversity, you can still grow.  You're always going to have SOME effect on the other life forms in your area, even H-Gs leave a mark on a neighborhood, that's why they need lots of territory, they have to keep moving on to let places they've been recover.

As far as the Biggest and Strongest being the Survivors, this is unlikely.  Large size requires greater caloric intake to maintain, so probably a more medium size is selected for.  Good memory would be selected for, since those who can remember which wild plants are Edible and which are Poisonous have an advantage.  Craftiness would be selected for, since hunting takes out thinking the prey.  Being Big enough to go Mano-a-Mano with a Grizzly utilizing Aikido tactics is not as good a survival advantage as tricking the Grizzly to walking into a Bear trap of course.  Most of all, COOPERATION would be selected for, since those out there who WORK TOGETHER stand a better chance to make it to the Other Side than those who Go It Alone.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 17, 2013, 06:28:58 AM
Ashvin, when the Hospitals are gone and the Medicines are gone, NOBODY is getting "Life-Long" care.  This is an artifact of outrageous SURPLUS, which is going the way of the Dinosaur quicker than we are as a species.  Selfless Love is a nice ideal, but in time of Contraction it needs to be tempered with CFS.  Triage is in the offing, like it or not.  You can't Save Everybody.  You can only Save As Many As You Can.

This whole distinction between "times or surplus" or "times of scarcity", which is mostly a subjective determination of those who COUNT, is wrong-headed when determining which virtues to uphold and which to discard. Time and again such an approach has proven not to work and lead to disastrous outcomes.

Selfless love is not selfless love when it is "tempered". But triage is not incompatible with selfless love either. No one is denying there are strict limitations to who and how many can be saved... In fact, part of being virtuous is not knowing whether your efforts will succeed or fail, and also knowing that YOUR efforts will never be ENOUGH by themselves. If there was no future unpredictability, then there would be no Virtue, and if there was no certainty of falling short, there would be no reliance on others to make things work... no Trust, Faith or Grace.

(btw, "life-long" care is always possible... it just means you care for the person until they die, which may be because you're simply unable to care for them anymore)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 06:52:25 AM
I put my faith in nature, and that faith has nothing to do with logic and reason.  Logic is antithetical to faith.  I have faith even against my logic.

I see this as an impoverished view of nature (not to mention of logic and faith, but we've had that fruitless argument). Thanks to nominalism, modern thinking has lost sight of a truth the medieval thinkers knew well: that nature is the outward manifestation of reason. So by being against logic, you are against nature. If the trees have something to say to you, you and the trees are in logical harmony, for without a shared logic there can be no communication.

You think a tree cares about anything you just wrote KA.

Impoverished view huh? 

I think you're full of yourself KA...and your big brain.  My point is that feeling something is true has nothing to do with logic...maybe a spiritual logic...but not an argumentative one.  Like the one you are so fond of. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 10:00:31 AM


You just don't want to leave your locale of the Carolinas, so you are lobbying for it non-stop.  Riddle me this though Batman...if the Investors all vote to drop the Foxstead in say the Driftless region of WI, are you gonna Walk Away from the project because it didn't end up where you hoped it would?

RE

Well I wouldn't say I'm lobbying for it non-stop.

As far as where the Foxstead shows up at...that would just be the first would it not?  We're planning on more than one correct?  So maybe the second would end up in SC...

However GM and I are game to move under the right set of circumstances.  They just have to be pretty compelling circumstances.  What I know is that once I finish with the RN bit we're gonna be lookin' to move for the last time...hopefully.  SC is not the best place to locate...it's just pretty good IMO.  I have compelling reasons to stay. 

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on June 17, 2013, 10:23:46 AM


You just don't want to leave your locale of the Carolinas, so you are lobbying for it non-stop.  Riddle me this though Batman...if the Investors all vote to drop the Foxstead in say the Driftless region of WI, are you gonna Walk Away from the project because it didn't end up where you hoped it would?

RE

Well I wouldn't say I'm lobbying for it non-stop.

As far as where the Foxstead shows up at...that would just be the first would it not?  We're planning on more than one correct?  So maybe the second would end up in SC...

However GM and I are game to move under the right set of circumstances.  They just have to be pretty compelling circumstances.  What I know is that once I finish with the RN bit we're gonna be lookin' to move for the last time...hopefully.  SC is not the best place to locate...it's just pretty good IMO.  I have compelling reasons to stay.
Be careful FOX. There are many traps in the woods. You have kits at stake. They make tender morsels for the right predator. Remember Hamlet's warning. K
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 17, 2013, 11:50:51 AM

This whole distinction between "times or surplus" or "times of scarcity", which is mostly a subjective determination of those who COUNT, is wrong-headed when determining which virtues to uphold and which to discard.

You won't need the calculus or a supercomputer to know what "times of scarcity" are when JIT shipping fails.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 17, 2013, 11:55:37 AM
You think a tree cares about anything you just wrote KA.

I didn't write it to a tree. I wrote it to you.

Quote
I think you're full of yourself KA...and your big brain. My point is that feeling something is true has nothing to do with logic...maybe a spiritual logic...but not an argumentative one.

And my point is that there is a spiritual logic (polar logic, also called the logic of contradictory identity). Furthermore, conventional logic can lead one to this more encompassing view. It won't, though, if you start from the assumption that logic is antithetical to faith.

Quote
  Like the one you are so fond of.

You make a statement that you know I will object to, and then when I object to it, you accuse me of being "full of myself". If you don't like "argumentative" logic, don't say argumentative things.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 17, 2013, 12:33:14 PM

This whole distinction between "times or surplus" or "times of scarcity", which is mostly a subjective determination of those who COUNT, is wrong-headed when determining which virtues to uphold and which to discard.

You won't need the calculus or a supercomputer to know what "times of scarcity" are when JIT shipping fails.

RE

With parts of Europe facing 20+% general unemployment, or 50% youth unemployment, one could argue times of scarcity are already being known. I'm just worried about which executive figurehead over there or over here will say that phrase, combined with some other fearful rhetoric, and then follow it up with, "THEREFORE..."

On that note, I'll sum up the gist of my entire argument on this thread with a quote from Carl Sagan (the Agnostic):

“I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudoscience and superstition [eugenics and "zombie" warfare?] will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive. Where have we heard it before? Whenever our ethnic or national prejudices are aroused, in times of scarcity, during challenges to national self-esteem or nerve, when we agonize about our diminished cosmic place and purpose, or when fanaticism is bubbling up around us - then, habits of thought familiar from ages past reach for the controls.

The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir.”
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 17, 2013, 12:43:10 PM

With parts of Europe facing 20+% general unemployment, or 50% youth unemployment, one could argue times of scarcity are already being known. I'm just worried about which executive figurehead over there or over here will say that phrase, combined with some other fearful rhetoric, and then follow it up with, "THEREFORE..."

I'm more worried nobody will ever stand up here and speak the TRUTH, tell people what they DON'T want to hear, that unless people give up the Industrial lifestyle, unless the wealthy give up their wealth and priveledge and unless people QUICKLY begin exiting the Big Shities and return to a more agrarian, local economy that most of them will DIE.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 02:26:10 PM

And my point is that there is a spiritual logic (polar logic, also called the logic of contradictory identity). Furthermore, conventional logic can lead one to this more encompassing view. It won't, though, if you start from the assumption that logic is antithetical to faith.

 

Alright Ka...you got a link for the "logic of contradictory identity"?  I wikied logic and got this:

Quote
1 The study of logic

    1.1 Logical form
    1.2 Deductive and inductive reasoning, and retroductive inference
    1.3 Consistency, validity, soundness, and completeness
    1.4 Rival conceptions of logic

2 History
3 Topics in logic

    3.1 Syllogistic logic
    3.2 Propositional logic (sentential logic)
    3.3 Predicate logic
    3.4 Modal logic
    3.5 Informal reasoning
    3.6 Mathematical logic
    3.7 Philosophical logic
    3.8 Computational logic
    3.9 Bivalence and the law of the excluded middle
    3.10 "Is logic empirical?"
    3.11 Implication: strict or material?
    3.12 Tolerating the impossible
    3.13 Rejection of logical truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Rejection_of_logical_truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Rejection_of_logical_truth)

I dropped out of philosophy 101 cause the professor was an arrogant prick whom I didn't feel like paying to deal with...because of that I dropped out of college for the 2nd time (at the time...think I've dropped out 4 times total in my life).  I did read the philosophy 101 text book from that class ten years later from cover to cover just cause.  That was a 101 text book...not exactly in depth study. 

I imagine you've studied philosophy am I correct?

Point is I'm not going to be able to argue with you academically about whether a tree cares about logic or not. 

What I'm saying is that you can get to truth via other ways besides your big monkey brain.  I have a big monkey brain too, and I'm cool with it.  But I'm also cool with my body and it's way of knowing.  I can buy that there's logic in nature.  The complexity is logical as far as we know...well actually it gets rather illogical eventually...that whole quantum thing. 

You're right, we've had this argument before, and we didn't agree with each other.  No sense in rehashing it. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 17, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
Quote
I'm more worried nobody will ever stand up here and speak the TRUTH, tell people what they DON'T want to hear, that unless people give up the Industrial lifestyle, unless the wealthy give up their wealth and priveledge and unless people QUICKLY begin exiting the Big Shities and return to a more agrarian, local economy that most of them will DIE.

RE

Truth! Whose Truth? Your Truth?

You think that quote is the truth? Something people don't want to hear?

It is the most common embraced quote in all of history. The chant and dream of the 99% since the beginning of mankind.

The Truth is much more elusive, infinitely more painful and disdainful, ugly and terrible, unique and personal, to be treated and labeled so irreverently.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 17, 2013, 03:11:52 PM

You think that quote is the truth? Something people don't want to hear?


I think it is a good deal closer to the Truth than the idea we can "Return to Growth" by printing worthless Funny Money.  However, if you can express a closer version than this and edify the group with your insight, we would all be greatful.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 17, 2013, 03:49:12 PM

You think that quote is the truth? Something people don't want to hear?


I think it is a good deal closer to the Truth than the idea we can "Return to Growth" by printing worthless Funny Money.  However, if you can express a closer version than this and edify the group with your insight, we would all be greatful.

RE

That is certainly a quote you will get no argument from me on RE, truer words were never spoken.

Unfortunately THE TRUTH that I was referring to is too terrifying for me to deal with.

Call me a coward, I will understand. Just a few micro second glimpses of it made me scream in anguish mentally; can't even remember it or describe it, some know how to describe just the feel from it and I recoil in horror. Been hiding  from it forever, making believe it doesn't even exist. Can't even function around the fringes of it. Sincerely wish I could be of more help.


                                                         
Study Innocent X
Study Innocent X

                                                         
Pope Innocent
Pope Innocent

                                                     
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 17, 2013, 04:47:54 PM
Ashvin said,
Quote

In fact, part of being virtuous is not knowing whether your efforts will succeed or fail, and also knowing that YOUR efforts will never be ENOUGH by themselves. If there was no future unpredictability, then there would be no Virtue, and if there was no certainty of falling short, there would be no reliance on others to make things work... no Trust, Faith or Grace.

(btw, "life-long" care is always possible... it just means you care for the person until they die, which may be because you're simply unable to care for them anymore)
Now that's what I call beautifully poetic and down to earth nuts and bolts realism in an elegantly delivered package. Thank you. :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :icon_sunny:

The constant efforts of the "dispassionate" fellows that see living in nature as constantly running one gauntlet after another, instead of a dance of many living beings with each other, always reduces the definition of "successful life forms" to biochemistry. :emthdown:

I agree with RE that cooperation among humans is a trait that, when NOT PRESENT, will reduce the viability of the tribe. But to reduce the survival probability of self aware beings to cause and effect based soley on adequate nutrition is denying the tremendous infuence that our brains have on human culture.

It's too short sighted. Is a buddhist monk that never had children and immolates himself to protest despotism or government injustice an example for RE of a human that FAILED THE TEST? YES! And that proves that the "test" based on physical cause and effect is INVALID. The POSITIVE effects of that sacrifice are intangibles that may very well dictate the future survival of the society around that monk. Intangibles CANNOT be quantified into some cause and effect formula. They are ETHICAL subjects VITAL to the survival of Homo SAP outside of cause and effect physical activity. 

It's no coincidence that Christian ethics, when applied in a community, propagate harmony. Our thing is to do what God tells us to. But, from an atheists point of view, what we are doing FOSTERS COMMUNITY because it emphasizes the role of the body of humans as a congregation in enhancing the quality of human life. The GROUP is more important than the INDIVIDUAL. The INDIVIDUAL is subservient to the GROUP.

The biochemical scientific reductionist, on the other hand, does the exact REVERSE,  He emphasizes  INDIVIDUAL survival and INDIVIDUAL successful predation as evidence of TRIBAL success. It is NO SUCH THING.

It is a dynamic in leadership struggles among humans, and an ANTI-COMMUNITY dynamic at that.

ANY mindset that celebrates the individual over society is planting the seeds of division, selfishness and fear based hoarding of resources that will fractionalize, balkanize, polarize, divide and destroy a community. As I wrote about a year ago, if ALL humans were like the super aggressive ones that end up being our leaders, we would have perished long ago.

The problem for a community of like minded individuals as a survival strategy is that the religion, politics, totalitarian government or whatever, that requires lock step  to keep everyone on the same page, puts them on a path of rampant resource destruction. The solution to that is proper ethics that include all life forms in the biosphere.

RE says my computers running the biosphere sampling will be gamed. Not if the stakes envisioned even by the most corrupt segments of humanity are planetary biosphere destruction leading to Homo SAP extinction.

Cooperation can be deadly if a society is cooperating to engage in genocide or resource rape. Christianity, like any human religion or belief system, can be deliberately distorted to achieve destructive behavior. But "every man for himself" produces destructive behavior A LOT FASTER. I'm sure the shit throwing monkeys at TBP would disagree. They are so wrong it's tragic.

So,  Community is half the answer but ethics is the other half. You won't find the answer to proper human ethical behavior in a test tube or a mice lab experiment. You will only be able to OBSERVE whether human behavior RESULTS in biosphere degradation or not. The CAUSE of the degradation is only physical on the SURFACE. UNETHICAL social behavior is the ULTIMATE cause of biosphere degradation and can only be remediated by ETHICAL behavior. ETHICS is a subject of the mind. Looking for it in quantitative cause and effect is ALWAYS going to produce faulty results. :emthdown:

RE never wants to stop believing that man LIVES BY "BREAD" (nutrition) ALONE.

Philosophers and humans from many different religions know this JUST AIN'T SO!
When Jesus Christ said that man didn't live by bread alone, He wasn't being rhetorical, RE.


And if you don't belive anything  J.C said, you will find similar language in practically EVERY SINGLE philosophy, cult, religion, shamanic, nature worshipping human writings and culture from the most primitive tribes to the most industrialized clusterfucks in Asia.

You don't have to be a Christian to KNOW that physical cause and effect is only PART of being a human.

Maybe my giant computer with millions of sensors won't work. But I'm certain ANY individually based eugenics type test is doomed to fail as a tool to ensure the viability of a tribe. This type of test celebrates the individual and erodes the worth of a community making the chief more important than the followers. That's what got us to the mess we are in now.

As a Christian, I already believe God's mind is like a giant computer with sensors in every nucleus of every atom with nanosecond by nanosecond feedback so it was easy for me to think of doing something much cruder and on a tiny scale compared to God's universe. I don't think the universe is the Pantheistic deal that RE envisions. God is still putting his fingers in the pie 24/7, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd give it a shot. We just need several computers and a few million sensors.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 17, 2013, 05:07:47 PM
Alright Ka...you got a link for the "logic of contradictory identity"?

I wrote up my understanding of it here (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html), with an application of it here (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/02/speculations-on-path-of-reason.html). I won't claim it is easy reading, but it is not, strictly speaking, academic.

Quote
What I'm saying is that you can get to truth via other ways besides your big monkey brain.  I have a big monkey brain too, and I'm cool with it.  But I'm also cool with my body and it's way of knowing.  I can buy that there's logic in nature.  The complexity is logical as far as we know...well actually it gets rather illogical eventually...that whole quantum thing. 

This issue (that there is not just one path to truth) is addressed in the first link above. Also, a brief mention of how it ties in with the quantum thing. Obviously, you are not on the path that those links are about, which is fine. What is not fine is that you have attacked it, without knowing what it is about.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 17, 2013, 05:43:04 PM
RE,
I listened to your podcasts. :emthup:

They gave an idea.  :icon_mrgreen:

Would you consider creation of 4 or 5 emoticons that described the different positions on future scenarios? It might be fun and save a lot of writing and possibly prevent misunderstandings.

HERE ARE SOME WOEFULLY INADEQUATE EXAMPLES: ;D

Uber doomer no hope(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-036.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif)

Slow collapse with constantly declining living standards  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-070.gif)




Quick collapse with only surviver communities toughing it out (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-games-022.gif)


Depression and later recovery (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-037.gif)

Cornucopian (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-062.gif)

Techno cornucopian (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Transports/ferrari-046.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 17, 2013, 06:09:41 PM

Would you consider creation of 4 or 5 emoticons that described the different positions on future scenarios? It might be fun and save a lot of writing and possibly prevent misunderstandings.

I'm not a good enough artist to create my own Emoticons.  You have to draw each of the cells in the animation, usually 10-15 is enough.

Keep looking around Smiley Repositories.  You may find something better.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 07:07:11 PM
It's too short sighted. Is a buddhist monk that never had children and immolates himself to protest despotism or government injustice an example for RE of a human that FAILED THE TEST? YES! And that proves that the "test" based on physical cause and effect is INVALID. The POSITIVE effects of that sacrifice are intangibles that may very well dictate the future survival of the society around that monk. Intangibles CANNOT be quantified into some cause and effect formula. They are ETHICAL subjects VITAL to the survival of Homo SAP outside of cause and effect physical activity. 

That's the type of logic I've been referring to, when I refer to logic being antithetical to faith.  "Intangibles cannot be quantified into some cause and effect formula" is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.  Are intangibles logical Agelbert?  Cause I've clearly misunderstood logic to have gotten into a mess with Ka.



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ANY mindset that celebrates the individual over society is planting the seeds of division, selfishness and fear based hoarding of resources that will fractionalize, balkanize, polarize, divide and destroy a community. As I wrote about a year ago, if ALL humans were like the super aggressive ones that end up being our leaders, we would have perished long ago.

gotta say I can't argue with that logic ;D  I agree with every bit of it. 

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The problem for a community of like minded individuals as a survival strategy is that the religion, politics, totalitarian government or whatever, that requires lock step  to keep everyone on the same page, puts them on a path of rampant resource destruction. The solution to that is proper ethics that include all life forms in the biosphere.

How does it put them on a path of rampant resource destruction?  "Proper ethics that include all life forms in the biosphere" sounds like something I can get behind.





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And if you don't belive anything  J.C said, you will find similar language in practically EVERY SINGLE philosophy, cult, religion, shamanic, nature worshipping human writings and culture from the most primitive tribes to the most industrialized clusterfucks in Asia.

I believe that's called the "perennial philosophy" which is one I have agreed with since before I read about it.

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You don't have to be a Christian to KNOW that physical cause and effect is only PART of being a human.

And that part that is not physical is not logical IMO.  At least it doesn't follow the same rules.  It follows different rules...that I suppose are logical in a different way.



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 07:10:05 PM


I wrote up my understanding of it here (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html), with an application of it here (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/02/speculations-on-path-of-reason.html). I won't claim it is easy reading, but it is not, strictly speaking, academic.

I'll take a look


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This issue (that there is not just one path to truth) is addressed in the first link above. Also, a brief mention of how it ties in with the quantum thing. Obviously, you are not on the path that those links are about, which is fine. What is not fine is that you have attacked it, without knowing what it is about.

Dude, how can I attack something when I don't even know what it is?  I would never attack something I knowingly knew nothing about.  So if I attacked you it was a misunderstanding.  Do you want to give me an example of what you're talking about? 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 07:20:05 PM
Quote
Mystery is that which is real, but can never be captured by static intellect, which is to say, can never be understood.

http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html)

WTF Ka? 

Let me say that again...WTF Ka?

Those are your words correct?

Cause me saying "logic is antithetical to faith" is the same damn thing you said in the above quote from your blog.  How is it different? 

If it can't be understood then HTF is it to be logical? 

I mean I stopped reading the blog right there because now I truly have no idea why we are in disagreement.  I agree with the quoted statement of yours btw...to be clear. 

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 17, 2013, 07:42:57 PM
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How does it put them on a path of rampant resource destruction?

If they lose their ethical compass and drift into unethical behavior, they can descend into resource destruction.

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"Proper ethics that include all life forms in the biosphere" sounds like something I can get behind.

Well, that is the ultimate in ethics because it defends a balanced and viable biosphere. That, IMHO, requires the "illogical" logic of the non physical part of the human. If logic has, at it's roots, the object of finding truth, then simply because metaphysical, spiritual or mind over matter reasoning is not based on immediate physical cause and effect, you need not assume it is not logical.

This type of logic looks generations into a dimly seen future and ultimately provides truths for humanity NOW that will ultimately increase the viability of the species BECAUSE it deals with the biosphere as a unit.

RE will, no doubt, protest. But the logic of the mind is paramount in preserving us and nature.

WHY? Because, as the only self aware tool makers on this planet, we are, by default (and for better or worse) the stewards of the biosphere.

It's a tricky situation because our instincts tell us to increase our numbers while our mind tells us we are in a bubble of life outside us with millions of interactions we don't yet fully understand and millions of microbes inside that we don't fully understand BUT, just as we know if we mess around with the bacterial populations in our gut, we are going to have unpredictable (mostly bad) results, whacking down some old growth forest whenever we want more space is no longer (if it ever was) an option we can consider without serious study.

It is only our mind and soul that told us long before we had the population we have today that we must live in harmony with nature. We didn't listen. NOW we have physical cause and effect proof that we have fucked up and cut off our nose, not to spite our faces, but because the "nose" looked like such a tasty morsel!

It's time to grow up. It's time to be responsible to a degree that we never have been. It's time to let the logic of the mind and soul, that has a better handle on what's good for ALL of us earthlings than some science experiment with mice will ever tell us, to lead our thoughts and behavior ethically.

It means we can no longer "shoot from the hip", so to speak, in our actions. I hope we make it.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 07:47:16 PM



                                                         
Study Innocent X
Study Innocent X

                                                         
Pope Innocent
Pope Innocent

                                                     

Love that art Ox.

Very powerful.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 17, 2013, 08:24:40 PM
Quote
Mystery is that which is real, but can never be captured by static intellect, which is to say, can never be understood.

http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html (http://logicsinandlove.blogspot.com/2008/01/path-of-reason.html)

WTF Ka? 

Let me say that again...WTF Ka?

Those are your words correct?

Yes.

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Cause me saying "logic is antithetical to faith" is the same damn thing you said in the above quote from your blog.  How is it different? 

It is different because I am not saying conventional logic is antithetical to faith. Antithesis of X is a denial, or rejection, or in some way contrary of X. All I am saying in that statement is the usual thing that mystical truth cannot be captured in concepts that conventional logic can deal with. But that doesn't mean that mystical truth in any way is a rejection of conventional logic -- just that there are areas where conventional logic can't go. Whereas, saying that logic is antithetical to faith means to me that you think conventional logic in some way works against faith. And as I go on to say, one can use conventional logic in a faith context to show just where its limits lie, and that doing so is worthwhile from a standpoint of faith. Hence I say it is complementary to faith, not antithetical.

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If it can't be understood then HTF is it to be logical? 

With polar logic, which also cannot be understood, but can be -- as Coleridge would put it -- imagined, and which is the difference between static and dynamic intellect.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 17, 2013, 08:56:19 PM
Let me try to put it another way.  To me it seems we are splitting hairs...or arguing with each other because we've been arguing.  My language is not as academic or refined as yours.  I'm more arm chair and empirical.  The things I know that are ultimately true are not things I've read.  They are experiences that I take to be true because I believe in my sensing ability that gives me perception to work with to begin with.  My perceptions must be at least real as an experience that I'm witness to.  So I'm saying I believe them as a transmission of something true.

Logic is useful until it's not anymore.  It stops being useful and you just have to decide for yourself what is ultimately true once your brain activity stops. 

I believe there is consciousness beyond my brain.  I believe there are other levels of existence which are described as spiritual in nature.  I believe when my body has rotted away I will still be participating in some form of consciousness be it via reincarnation or other levels of existence.  Where does logic come in there Ka?  I mean I can make a case for all of my beliefs logically...until I can't anymore...and that's where the logic stops working and we just have to be comfortable in the agnostic corner we are forced into due to requiring monkey brains to exist in this manifestation of consciousness. 

We can't know until we die.  We can't know, and so where does logic fit into not knowing?  How does logic make any sense when what we know is that we don't know?  That's why I say that in the end Faith is not a product of logic.  We can arrive at the door of faith with logic, but that leap we must take is not logical. 

What I mean to say is that leap can be composed of logic but it's not in fact logic once taken.  It's something different.  Intangible as Agelbert said.  The intangible nuances that breath the life out are not logic. 

Logic is nothing more than a tool of the mind.  In the end it might not even be real...just another dream we dreamt up to have something to argue about.  To feel we are being understood amongst our peers.  Which is ultimately what we crave...I believe. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 17, 2013, 10:28:35 PM
LD, it seems like you're using the word "logic" to be synonymous with, or limited to, various qualities such as physical, tangible, known, knowable, scientific, empirical, unemotional, etc., when it really isn't.

I think it's useful to just substitute the word "trust" for "faith" sometimes. You have faith in nature and/or your experiences with nature, meaning you trust in them. But does that mean you have no underlying logic or reason to do so?
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 17, 2013, 11:07:39 PM
Let me try to put it another way.  To me it seems we are splitting hairs...or arguing with each other because we've been arguing.  My language is not as academic or refined as yours.  I'm more arm chair and empirical.  The things I know that are ultimately true are not things I've read.  They are experiences that I take to be true because I believe in my sensing ability that gives me perception to work with to begin with.  My perceptions must be at least real as an experience that I'm witness to.  So I'm saying I believe them as a transmission of something true.

Now we are closer to just splitting hairs, but we weren't when you said "faith is antithetical to logic", while I (in our previous go-round) had said "faith and logic are complementary". The plain meaning of those two phrases indicates a difference significantly larger than a hair's breadth. But after discussion, we can now see that our positions are not as different. But I think they are still different.

On experience as truth-giver, yes, mostly. But there are limits there as well. For example, based on thinking -- not experience -- I (and some others) conclude that space, time, and mass are created in the act of perception. How is one going to conclude this from sense experience? One cannot. One can conclude it from mystical experience, but only if one has had it, which I haven't.

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Logic is useful until it's not anymore.  It stops being useful and you just have to decide for yourself what is ultimately true once your brain activity stops. 

I agree that it is incapable of making that leap to faith. But it doesn't thereby stop being useful. For example, one's leap may be to a false faith (as occurred to me when as an adolescent I acquired a faith in naturalism). Logical thinking cured me of that. Further, I think that with logic one can deepen one's faith, though of course if one's leap was into a false faith, one is then just getting into a deeper hole. However, I hold (following Barfield) that even in that case one is doing oneself good in the long (reincarnational) run, which is to say, that learning to exercise reason is a necessary stage in the evolution of consciousness.

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I believe there is consciousness beyond my brain.  I believe there are other levels of existence which are described as spiritual in nature.  I believe when my body has rotted away I will still be participating in some form of consciousness be it via reincarnation or other levels of existence.  Where does logic come in there Ka?  I mean I can make a case for all of my beliefs logically...until I can't anymore...and that's where the logic stops working and we just have to be comfortable in the agnostic corner we are forced into due to requiring monkey brains to exist in this manifestation of consciousness. 

Well, as you say, logic comes in when you can make a case for your beliefs. When challenged you can strengthen that case. Or decide a belief or two should be modified or abandoned.  I would add that the same complementary relation between logic and faith occurs in other areas than religion. Political stance is one. What kind of doomer one is is another, with major implications in how one prepares. I would assume you agree that in these cases, further exercise of logic is a good thing. Why not in one's faith? Another reason is to find out further implications of one's faith. For example, you say you believe (as do I) that there is consciousness beyond the brain. That implies that the brain is not the source of consciousness. Nor of thinking, since one can also think after one dies. Nor of sense perception (if one has had, or accepts that others have had, OOBE's). So basically you are rejecting the whole mindset of contemporary society's view of the mind. Going further, as mentioned, one can conclude that space, time, and mass are created in the act of perception. What does that do to one's understanding of physical (or social, or personal) evolution? The Big Bang theory? Rather a lot, I would say.

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We can't know until we die.  We can't know, and so where does logic fit into not knowing?  How does logic make any sense when what we know is that we don't know?  That's why I say that in the end Faith is not a product of logic.  We can arrive at the door of faith with logic, but that leap we must take is not logical.

What I mean to say is that leap can be composed of logic but it's not in fact logic once taken.  It's something different.  Intangible as Agelbert said.  The intangible nuances that breath the life out are not logic. 

But they are not illogical either, which to me was implied when you used the word 'antithetical'. And one may speculate that what got you to make the leap is a higher logic. In any case, how is this situation of "not knowing" any different from any other situation in which one applies logic as best one can, e.g., in the examples of politics or doomer stance?

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Logic is nothing more than a tool of the mind.  In the end it might not even be real...just another dream we dreamt up to have something to argue about.  To feel we are being understood amongst our peers.  Which is ultimately what we crave...I believe.

Well here I do disagree, but to spell it out would be a major undertaking. Briefly, I agree with Nishida (of 'logic of contradictory identity' fame) who claims that with it, the logical, the epistemological, and the ontological coincide. If you read further in my 'path of reason' essay, this idea shows up where I say (following Wolff) that contradictory identity isn't just something to say about consciousness, but is consciousness.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 18, 2013, 06:54:04 AM
LD, it seems like you're using the word "logic" to be synonymous with, or limited to, various qualities such as physical, tangible, known, knowable, scientific, empirical, unemotional, etc., when it really isn't.

I think it's useful to just substitute the word "trust" for "faith" sometimes. You have faith in nature and/or your experiences with nature, meaning you trust in them. But does that mean you have no underlying logic or reason to do so?

I think it would help to have a definition of logic that we all agree on don't you? 

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1.the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2.a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.

3.the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4.reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.

5.convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic?s=t)

Not sure dictionary.com is very helpful here...sort of vague in their definitions I think.

got any suggestions for a definition?  Are reason and logic the same things?  Maybe I'll try this way.  Take three people of equal intelligence.  All of them are the same age.  All of them use logic to decide which religious faith they believe.  They come to three different conclusions.  One is Christian, one is Buddhist, and one is Wiccan.  Is one more correct than the other?  They all used different logic to arrive at their conclusions. 

Logic seems pretty malleable to me in this case.   
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 18, 2013, 07:46:10 AM
I think it would help to have a definition of logic that we all agree on don't you? 

...

Take three people of equal intelligence.  All of them are the same age.  All of them use logic to decide which religious faith they believe.  They come to three different conclusions.  One is Christian, one is Buddhist, and one is Wiccan.  Is one more correct than the other?  They all used different logic to arrive at their conclusions. 

Logic seems pretty malleable to me in this case.

Yes it would help to have a definition. I still don't think the issue of which worldview is "more correct" is very relevant to whether logic can be used. Logic COULD be used to determine whether it is likely (not certain) that none are correct, one is correct, all 3 are correct or it's impossible to determine who is more correct.

But I'll let Ka continue with this and provide the definition (though, dictionary.com's isn't too bad). I'll just say for the record I agree with everything is his last response (except for his spiritual conclusions)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 18, 2013, 09:34:01 AM

Yes it would help to have a definition. I still don't think the issue of which worldview is "more correct" is very relevant to whether logic can be used. Logic COULD be used to determine whether it is likely (not certain) that none are correct, one is correct, all 3 are correct or it's impossible to determine who is more correct.


so then logic could be used to determine that you are correct and the other two are incorrect in their beliefs?  Does that mean the other two are using logic incorrectly and are therefore arriving at an incorrect spiritual answer to truth? 

If that's the case, then how could they know they were using logic incorrectly?  Further, how do you know that you used it correctly? 

My stance is that all three could use logic to determine that their beliefs are correct, if indeed nothing but logic could be used.  And by your admission all three COULD be correct using logic.  But if we are to use more than logic, what is it that we use?  If it's not logic it has to be something different from logic.  And if logic can't take us all the way, then what is that other something? 

That point is where I'm saying that logic is antithetical to faith.  Because if all three are correct and used correct logic to form their conclusions than logic could be used to decide the truth about anything you want.  You could say virtually anything is true.  A Jew is correct as is a Christian...but they don't agree with each other. There is a paradox there. 

I maintain that something other than logic must be used to make the final decision about where to place your faith. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 18, 2013, 10:45:51 AM
I think it would help to have a definition of logic that we all agree on don't you? 

I'll take a stab at this, but like most philosophical terms, one can't entirely get universally acceptable definitions (e.g., 'truth', 'reality', 'good'). Anyway....

Most generally, logic refers to patterns of thinking. The study of logic attempts to find those patterns that are trustworthy, that is, which lead to truth, and those patterns which don't, which are called fallacies. By "conventional logic", I have been referring to those patterns which Aristotle identified, that is, which conform to the laws of identity, non-contradiction, and the excluded middle, and the basic syllogisms. One important thing to note is that identifying these patterns and recognizing fallacies is done intuitively -- one cannot use logic to determine what is logical. One just knows, or more commonly, one just knows when someone violates one of these trustworthy patterns. In other words, the study of logic is descriptive, not prescriptive. 

However, the situation gets muddled in that the only place such trustworthy laws operate in a pure fashion is in mathematics. In mathematics, one explicitly states the assumptions one starts with, explicitly defines all subsequently introduced terms, and uses explicit logical rules to prove theorems. In all other rational endeavors, one does not have the luxury of having one's assumptions and definitions and patterns of thinking so explicitly available. Which is why the three individuals in your example came to different conclusions. They had variable cultural, social, and psychological conditions, different experiences, different mentors, different challenges, etc., all of which instills varying habits of thinking, using varying assumptions, and giving varying weights to the same data. This is not to say that given enough time and critical thinking one can make all of that explicit and thus be able to determine the one, true religion through conventional logic alone. And this is not just a matter of practical impossibility, but is a theoretical impossibility. One thing that mathematics can never encompass is the mathematician, or conventional logic the logician. Which is to say that consciousness operates at a level beyond that of conventional logic. If it didn't, there would be no creativity, since conventional logic can only go from given assumptions to implications of those assumptions. Consciousness can create new assumptions. What logic, then, does one use to think about consciousness? Well, you know how I answer that one: the logic of contradictory identity.

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[From your last reply to Ashvin]so then logic could be used to determine that you are correct and the other two are incorrect in their beliefs?  Does that mean the other two are using logic incorrectly and are therefore arriving at an incorrect spiritual answer to truth? 

I would say, no, the other two are not using logic incorrectly, rather, they are using it with faulty assumptions, or on different data, or because they assign different importance to certain data, or they are just unaware of some relevant data, and so forth. But, of course, that also applies to the first person -- as we agree, certainty is just not available. But I would agree with Ashvin that one can make plausibility judgments, and so it is not the case that any faith is just as good, or bad, as any other.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 18, 2013, 11:26:44 AM

Yes it would help to have a definition. I still don't think the issue of which worldview is "more correct" is very relevant to whether logic can be used. Logic COULD be used to determine whether it is likely (not certain) that none are correct, one is correct, all 3 are correct or it's impossible to determine who is more correct.


so then logic could be used to determine that you are correct and the other two are incorrect in their beliefs?  Does that mean the other two are using logic incorrectly and are therefore arriving at an incorrect spiritual answer to truth? 

If that's the case, then how could they know they were using logic incorrectly?  Further, how do you know that you used it correctly? 

It could be they are using faulty logic, or it could be their logic is fine but they are applying it to incorrect facts, bad evidence, faulty assumptions etc. This is something I need to watch out for on the bar exam questions! Perfectly coherent logic won't matter a bit if I get the rule of law and fact patterns wrong.

So correct logic won't always get you to the correct conclusions, but faulty logic will definitely get you to incorrect conclusions (unless you just get there by guessing and dumb luck). There is a leap of faith ultimately required to make a firm commitment to ANY worldview, but making a leap of faith is a logical thing to do IMO.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 18, 2013, 12:17:36 PM


So correct logic won't always get you to the correct conclusions, but faulty logic will definitely get you to incorrect conclusions (unless you just get there by guessing and dumb luck). There is a leap of faith ultimately required to make a firm commitment to ANY worldview, but making a leap of faith is a logical thing to do IMO.

yet that leap is one of faith...not logic...which has really been my point all along.  Seems we've been fighting over a miscommunication.  And if I had to guess I'd say it was due to the loss of nuance that easily occurs via this medium of communication. 

So it would seem the only thing we disagree on now...well the main problem I have with your beliefs at least, all revolves around the question of Hell and who goes there...and the exact nature of...

Which, Hell would be a great topic to embark on seeing as how this is the Zombie Rehab thread... :laugh:

I find that to be pretty damn funny ;D

Although I would participate in another thread that dealt with just the topic of Hell...hell...maybe I'll start it  O0

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 18, 2013, 12:40:21 PM
But I would agree with Ashvin that one can make plausibility judgments, and so it is not the case that any faith is just as good, or bad, as any other.

"Plausibility judgments" needs to be elaborated on homey...cause that seems pretty vague in nature to me. 

This was the only thing I saw in your comment that jumped out at me.  That is to say, that caused my disagree alarm to go off. 

As in something is plausible? 

Also I'd like to have a small synopsis of an elaboration on the "logic of contradictory identity" by you.  Cause I'm not sure I understand what you mean still...and I did go on to finish that blog of yours btw. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 18, 2013, 01:59:41 PM
yet that leap is one of faith...not logic...which has really been my point all along.  Seems we've been fighting over a miscommunication.  And if I had to guess I'd say it was due to the loss of nuance that easily occurs via this medium of communication.

Yeah, we are all forced to make a leap of faith, even Agnostics who say "we just can't know the real truth". That is a faith-based position. And it's quite likely someone will make the WRONG leap of faith if proper logic and reasoning is not used beforehand.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 18, 2013, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: LD
So it would seem the only thing we disagree on now...well the main problem I have with your beliefs at least, all revolves around the question of Hell and who goes there...and the exact nature of...

Which, Hell would be a great topic to embark on seeing as how this is the Zombie Rehab thread... :laugh:

I find that to be pretty damn funny ;D

Although I would participate in another thread that dealt with just the topic of Hell...hell...maybe I'll start it  O0

Hell, may as well start it here... a mod can just siphon it off if need be.

The issue of "hell" is centered around the concept of ultimate Justice for beings with free moral agency, i.e. punishment for freely chosen evil deeds and reward for righteousness. Every major spiritual belief system embraces this concept, whether is it via some form of karma/reincarnation process or via the "afterlife".

In addition, if you accept the eternal nature of spirit, then punishment can have eternal consequences. In the Biblical Christian context, the eternal consequence for rejecting God is not being forgiven of sin, clothed with Christ's righteousness and inheriting your share of his everlasting Kingdom, which is Paradise restored and renewed.

Some people taking this to mean you are quarantined off in some other realm for eternity, in a permanent state of sin and rebellion and separation from God, which really amounts to eternal torment. The logic here is that, even if God offered you a ticket into his Kingdom, you would choose to remain in Hell. Others would argue this means you are extinguished from existence, which is also eternal separation from God and horrendous compared to the alternative (eternal life WITH God), but it does not require God to sustain your existence in a state of eternal conscious torment.

I lean towards the latter.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ka on June 18, 2013, 03:02:54 PM
"Plausibility judgments" needs to be elaborated on homey...cause that seems pretty vague in nature to me. 

The Big Bang theory is a plausibility judgment. Concluding that there will be financial/commercial collapse in the next five or so years is a plausibility judgment. Given the data at hand, you make a decision over which of several possibilities strikes you as most likely, or decide not to choose. You asked in your previous post what it is besides logic that leads to making a particular leap to faith. My answer is that it is the same as what makes one choose one scientific hypothesis over another: the data being focused on, and how one interprets it. The only difference is that science works with easier data to collect and interpret, while a religious conclusion works with data that is much muddier, harder to select, and harder to interpret (assuming one is without direct divine revelation, though even there, error is possible). I assume you wouldn't say that science, or history, is antithetical to logic, so why say it of a carefully thought-out move to a religious conclusion? There is a difference of degree, but not of kind. (Mathematics, by the way, is a difference of kind, because it doesn't work with data at all.)

Quote
Also I'd like to have a small synopsis of an elaboration on the "logic of contradictory identity" by you.  Cause I'm not sure I understand what you mean still...and I did go on to finish that blog of yours btw.

Well, I had thought of those blog entries as being a small synopsis, so I'm not at all sure I can do better here. You might think of it this way. The central maxim of Mahayana Buddhism is that "formlessness is not other than form, form is not other than formlessness". Here we clearly have a claim of identity of two contraries: form and formlessness. Now, assuming one doesn't just reject the maxim, deciding that the Buddha (or at least the Buddhist author of this maxim) is just wrong, how is one to deal with this claim? One way is to basically put it aside, meditate for several years and hope (though you don't admit that you are hoping) that the Truth of the claim appears to you as a mystical insight. But another thing one can do is realize that consciousness cannot be explained in terms of form, nor as formlessness alone, nor as a combination of form and formlessness. It can only be "understood" as a case of form being not other than formlessness, and formlessness being not other than form. And of course, the square quotes around "understood" is because this isn't actually understandable by the static intellect. But one can understand that the answer to the mystery of consciousness lies in what is, to the static intellect, a contradictory identity. Of course, I've left out here how it is that one comes to that realization about consciousness, but that one can find in the second blog entry, where I talk about how the conscious self persists only if it doesn't persist, and doesn't persist (that is, it changes) only by persisting.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on June 18, 2013, 03:44:35 PM
Also I'd like to have a small synopsis of an elaboration on the "logic of contradictory identity" by you.  Cause I'm not sure I understand what you mean still...and I did go on to finish that blog of yours btw.

I think this is a case where a picture is worth a thousand words.... Here's three:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09xTWcsZCI/AAAAAAAApks/UobyGHOsSrQ/s400/octavio_ocampo_34.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09yZOYzetI/AAAAAAAApo0/T5MuHdr7EQo/s400/octavio_ocampo_01.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09yP6tvamI/AAAAAAAApoM/R_ZCSVGgfVM/s400/octavio_ocampo_06.jpg)

What you see depends on what you choose to focus on.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 18, 2013, 05:27:10 PM
Also I'd like to have a small synopsis of an elaboration on the "logic of contradictory identity" by you.  Cause I'm not sure I understand what you mean still...and I did go on to finish that blog of yours btw.

I think this is a case where a picture is worth a thousand words.... Here's three:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09xTWcsZCI/AAAAAAAApks/UobyGHOsSrQ/s400/octavio_ocampo_34.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09yZOYzetI/AAAAAAAApo0/T5MuHdr7EQo/s400/octavio_ocampo_01.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/S09yP6tvamI/AAAAAAAApoM/R_ZCSVGgfVM/s400/octavio_ocampo_06.jpg)

What you see depends on what you choose to focus on.

beautiful John  :D
Title: Zombie Rehab: The RE Spin
Post by: RE on June 19, 2013, 02:52:51 AM
I am about half way through the Text for the next Sunday Brunch Article, entitled ZOMBIE REHAB.

Instead of doing a Compilation article at this point which is about impossible, rather I am writing a synthesis here of questions that came up in the thread and my own perspectives on them.

I still encourage both Agelbert and LD who have been major contributors to the thread to develop their own articles.  Watson also, since he has posted quite a bit to this thread and he does have a Byline on the Diner Blog also.

I think it would make a nice series overall.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 19, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
Quote
I still encourage both Agelbert and LD who have been major contributors to the thread to develop their own articles.

I think you are an excellent editor and a rigorously objective scientist as well. You may say I am being a lazy arse but I'll wait to enjoy your article and post any thoughts I have on it in the comments.  ;) :icon_sunny:

I want to add that I think Monsta is the BEST as far aas page layout and formatting. He redid some my old articles and they were much easier to read IMHO. I like his font selection. Yeah, I know that's just nitpicking but Monsta deserves and At-A-Boy for his formatting skills.   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Zombie Rehab: Coming Sunday to a Laptop Near You
Post by: RE on June 19, 2013, 07:05:59 PM
OK!  My Text for the Zombie Rehab Blog Article is now basically complete, coming in around 2600 words this time, with no Quotes.  May get a bit larger before I publish for the Sunday Brunch article.

For the rest of the participants here in the thread, I encourage you also to write an article on this topic for the Blog.

As a Teaser, here are my Concluding 2 Paragraphs from ZOMBIE REHAB:

Quote
Difficult decisions are coming down the pipe here for everyone, regardless of whether you are a Diner or a Zombie at the moment.  Being aware, preparing and so forth does provide an Advantage for Survival, but it most certainly does not resolve the most DIFFICULT questions that will arrive when real SCARCITY problems hit in the area of JIT Food Distribution.  If you accept the idea that MANY people are going to DIE here once the Conduits of Industrialized living begin to fail earnestly and in Cascade Fashion, then if YOU are to SURVIVE, inevitably you will end up watching many other people, even LOVED ONES, DYING.

How can you live with this problem?  How can you make such a Die Off JUST?  These are the problems we consider every day inside the Diner, and I suspect some of the other Bloggers here will also respond to the questions in their own way as well.  I applaud that, because it is a Conversation we all must have, because this Problem is QUITE REAL, and you cannot WISH IT AWAY.

RE
Title: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 02:12:28 AM
Zombie Rehab (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/23/zombie-rehab/) by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 23, 2013, 09:17:38 AM
Zombie Rehab (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/23/zombie-rehab/) by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE

Great piece RE :emthup:

My question is about looking at just the "carrying capacity" of a doomstead for a tribe.  Because that doomstead won't be in a vacuum and there will be other outlets for acquiring food for survivors for some time to come. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder about calculating the amount of people whom can cooperatively take care of the tribes calorie needs.  I can imagine enlisting new arriving Zombies to help acquire much needed supplies from the failed periphery of society.  As a form of test.  "Go and acquire these items that we need and have been unable to acquire, and if you do that you can have a place here." 

Just saying that my concern is that trying to figure out how many people can exist in a post-petroleum human tribe based solely on what can be grown seems somewhat unrealistic to me as there will be industrial calories that can be obtained for quite some time for survivors.  Especially in a pandemic die off. 

Also.  I don't want to turn my Zombie family away from the foxstead, and I don't want to ask any member of the foxstead to do it either.  However this means that effectively there is no vetting process for who becomes a part of our tribe. 

I'm thinking now that the answer to our predicament is to make a Zombie right of passage into post-petroleum human status post collapse.  So we figure out what that will be and write it into the foxstead prospectus.  You pay the 10 grand and get your 1/3 acre at the foxstead under the condition that if you have family show up post collapse that they be subjected to this test.  The test will inherently be dangerous...as it should be.  But you've got to put some skin in the cooperation game of collective survival to reap the fruit of the collective labor. 

It's not eugenics.  It's transforming Zombies into humans in a post collapse world.  I think I can help with this due to my natural zombie whispering abilities   ;D
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 03:35:09 PM
Zombie Rehab (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/23/zombie-rehab/) by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE

Great piece RE :emthup:

My question is about looking at just the "carrying capacity" of a doomstead for a tribe.  Because that doomstead won't be in a vacuum and there will be other outlets for acquiring food for survivors for some time to come. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder about calculating the amount of people whom can cooperatively take care of the tribes calorie needs.  I can imagine enlisting new arriving Zombies to help acquire much needed supplies from the failed periphery of society.  As a form of test.  "Go and acquire these items that we need and have been unable to acquire, and if you do that you can have a place here." 

Just saying that my concern is that trying to figure out how many people can exist in a post-petroleum human tribe based solely on what can be grown seems somewhat unrealistic to me as there will be industrial calories that can be obtained for quite some time for survivors.  Especially in a pandemic die off. 

Also.  I don't want to turn my Zombie family away from the foxstead, and I don't want to ask any member of the foxstead to do it either.  However this means that effectively there is no vetting process for who becomes a part of our tribe. 

I'm thinking now that the answer to our predicament is to make a Zombie right of passage into post-petroleum human status post collapse.  So we figure out what that will be and write it into the foxstead prospectus.  You pay the 10 grand and get your 1/3 acre at the foxstead under the condition that if you have family show up post collapse that they be subjected to this test.  The test will inherently be dangerous...as it should be.  But you've got to put some skin in the cooperation game of collective survival to reap the fruit of the collective labor. 

It's not eugenics.  It's transforming Zombies into humans in a post collapse world.  I think I can help with this due to my natural zombie whispering abilities   ;D

Thanks LD.

As I mentioned on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board, if you are one of the Investors who has a Campsite, you pretty much can let as many as you feel like taking in onto the site, even though only 4-6 are "recommended.  This will not however entitle them to any of the production off the Foxstead LLCs.  If they can acquire food/money otherwise and said money still works, they will do fine.

Far as becoming true Tribe members goes, at first they are just Guests before they become Diners.  They'll have to Post Up a few times to get a better idea of whether they fit as a Diner.  :icon_mrgreen:  We can subject them to Napalm Contests to test their mettle!  LOL.

Seriously, as long as a person isn't a troublemaker and mostly keeps to themselves in their tent on some relatives campsite, they don't have to Dance around the Campfire naked with Orange Afro Wigs on to stay there.  Only if they cause trouble or dissention would you need a process for pitching them off the island.

The long term proceedure for testing Reproductive Age adolescents is one that probably doesn't need to be addressed for a while.  General Die Off might occur so fast that there is lots of land freely available for any survivors to go an start a New Foxstead.  At the same time though, just because there is lots of available land doesn't mean you want to make the same mistake again and go willy-nilly procreating exponentially.  So this will need to be addressed over time.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 23, 2013, 04:34:32 PM
First, we had this:

This may have already been covered and I missed it - my apology in advance.

Let's just say a family member of a Foxsteader that is considered a "zombie" shows up at a SUN location (post-collapse

eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related SUN family is

maxed out on their "family membership" quota.  What is the SUN protocol?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is

"kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

This is a question to be asked on the SUN  :icon_sunny: board, not here.

RE

And then we just get this:


As I mentioned on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board, if you are one of the Investors who has a Campsite, you pretty much

can let as many as you feel like taking in onto the site, even though only 4-6 are "recommended.  This will not however

entitle them to any of the production off the Foxstead LLCs.  If they can acquire food/money otherwise and said money

still works, they will do fine.

Far as becoming true Tribe members goes, at first they are just Guests before they become Diners.  They'll have to Post

Up a few times to get a better idea of whether they fit as a Diner.  :icon_mrgreen:  We can subject them to Napalm

Contests to test their mettle!  LOL.

Seriously, as long as a person isn't a troublemaker and mostly keeps to themselves in their tent on some relatives

campsite, they don't have to Dance around the Campfire naked with Orange Afro Wigs on to stay there.  Only if they

cause trouble or dissention would you need a process for pitching them off the island.

The long term proceedure for testing Reproductive Age adolescents is one that probably doesn't need to be addressed

for a while.  General Die Off might occur so fast that there is lots of land freely available for any survivors to go an start a

New Foxstead.  At the same time though, just because there is lots of available land doesn't mean you want to make the

same mistake again and go willy-nilly procreating exponentially.  So this will need to be addressed over time.

RE


This is hilarious. (http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif)  I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.   
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 06:18:29 PM
This is hilarious. (http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif)  I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.

Gimmee a break.  I am Throwing a Bone to the Hoi Polloi to encourage them to Pony Up for SUN  :icon_sunny: Board priviledges.  :icon_mrgreen:

It's BAITING Joe.  Did you ever go Fishing?  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: JoeP on June 23, 2013, 06:42:03 PM
This is hilarious. (http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif)  I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.

Gimmee a break.  I am Throwing a Bone to the Hoi Polloi to encourage them to Pony Up for SUN  :icon_sunny: Board priviledges.  :icon_mrgreen:

It's BAITING Joe.  Did you ever go Fishing?  LOL.

RE


OK.  So this means it's an advertising thing and you are the only one here capable of deciding when it's appropriate to do so?
 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 06:53:09 PM

OK.  So this means it's an advertising thing and you are the only one here capable of deciding when it's appropriate to do so?

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Archive/Search/2011/4/21/1303376172454/The-Godfather-007.jpg)
Something like that.  ;)

I actually did think about this before I wrote the response, and was 50-50 on whether to put it up or move it over to the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board.  I decided to drop it on here because it is pretty slow lately so I figured it might perk things up.

Executive Godfather Decisionmaking.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 23, 2013, 07:52:50 PM
RE,
I just read your excellent summary of the monumental gut wrenching decisions a doomer community is faced with after TSHTF. :emthup:

Quote
So, in this situation, are John & Kirsten OBLIGATED to take in Jon, Kristen, Robert, Samantha, Papa & Mama onto the Doomstead?

OBLIGATED? (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif)

1) You are making a valid case that the MAIN OBLIGATION of the doomsteaders is to the other doomsteaders.

2) Furthermore, you are adding the RATIONALLY perceived harm to said doomsteaders by adding more people due to the fact that they are over the planned group size for the land as it is.

You are saying that, as long as "2)" isn't the case, it's okay to take added people.

BUT if "2)" IS the case, there is an OBLIGATION to the other doomsteaders to deny entry to any and all comers.

When you ask, "What is JUST behavior?", you are, because of minimum human nutritional needs, REQUIRING that any ethical considerations about helping people in need MUST be shelved under condition "2)" as CFS. 

IOW, ethics are a luxury produced by having plenty of food and must be dispensed with when there isn't enough food for the survival of the community.

In my view, if sliding scale ethics can be considered JUST BEHAVIOR in even ONE situation, then ethics is, and always was, an illusion.

My life experiences have convinced me that ethical behavior is the only truly JUST behavior. Mind/spirit over matter and all that. :icon_mrgreen:

Here's what I would do. I would perform a modification of a Sophie's choice type decision.  :P

Since, as a member of the doomsteader community, I am well versed in survival techniques and the newcomer family members are not, I'll give up my position for their's. I would let the wife and children decide individually as well whether to stay and deny or go and trade places.

At the anger of my fellow doomsters that I had just won the Darwin award I would offer a compromise. I will appropriate some more land so the new members would be able to join the community without straining the resources.

They say, okay, go and take all the newcomers with you and come back when you have X acres of adjacent, or at least less than a day's travel from here, land. Have a nice day. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/mocantina.gif)

And that's how tribes form and wars for resources occur...(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-021.gif)

I can sit here in the comfort of my home and say I wouldn't kill other people to take their land because it is unethical. I can say I would rather die than kill people for resources. I can say that it's not ethical to engage in that behavior as a Christian. BUT, as YOU say, if all this ethics we humans believe in is SUBORDINATE to nutritional needs, I would "go barbarian"  and feel "justified" in TAKING whatever I could TAKE. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-017.gif)

Maybe you are right, RE, that Homo SAP lives by BREAD (physical nutrition) ALONE. Maybe you are right that friendly, civilized, respectful and cordial behavior is merely a function of a full stomach, a roof over your head, good clothing and excellent health. Maybe you are right that all those niceties are a convenient veneer that we cover ourselves with when there is plenty to go around.

But I don't think so. And I'm willing to bet my life on it. I've done it before so I'll be better prepared next time. I won't hesitate as I did that day on the beach before doing the ETHICAL thing.
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)

See you on the other side.
(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1529/1529939gg8yeanop9.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 08:26:07 PM

But I don't think so. And I'm willing to bet my life on it. I've done it before so I'll be better prepared next time. I won't hesitate as I did that day on the beach before doing the ETHICAL thing.
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)

See you on the other side.
(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1529/1529939gg8yeanop9.gif)

For myself Agelbert, when the time comes for a decision as to whether I with my PAD are to continue living off the proceeds of the Foxstead LLCs or whether a younger, healthier Worthy Refugee who can better help the Tribe survive will be allowed a Place at the Campfire, this is the day I take the Last Kayak Trip Out to Sea.  Those are my ethics.  I will Suicide for the continued existence and betterment of the Tribe.

Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 23, 2013, 08:34:53 PM
Quote
Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE


Well, it depends. :icon_mrgreen: If you are giving your life to save another life, it's NOT ONLY not a sin, IT's the HIGHEST VIRTUE YOU CAN ACHIEVE AS A CHRISTIAN.

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So I suspect JC would HONOR your kayak ride, rather than condemn it AS LONG AS you were convinced that your action would increase the viability of your friends.

So basically, we agree there. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 23, 2013, 08:51:26 PM
Quote
Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE


Well, it depends. :icon_mrgreen: If you are giving your life to save another life, it's NOT ONLY not a sin, IT's the HIGHEST VIRTUE YOU CAN ACHIEVE AS A CHRISTIAN.

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So I suspect JC would HONOR your kayak ride, rather than condemn it AS LONG AS you were convinced that your action would increase the viability of your friends.

So basically, we agree there. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)

Well, the Last Kayak Trip Out to Sea is not my PREFERRED Ticket to the Great Beyond.  I'd more hope to sit in a Blind with my recently Field Amputated Gangrenous Legs by LD with my Barrett .50 Cal taking out the Army of the Illuminati as my friends make their Getaway.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ut7aMC9POyo?feature=player_detailpage

Where do you think JC stands on that one?  How about you?

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on June 24, 2013, 07:04:28 AM
RE
Do you really have a Barret .50? If so, I'm a little jealous. I decided some time back, though, that my .45-70s would have to suffice if I needed a high mass bullet.
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: DoomerSupport on June 25, 2013, 06:06:47 PM
Coming late to the party again, a couple of comments but busy right now, will be a few days before i get through this thread.

It is clear from the above quote that you are quite human because, as Maslow's hierarchy attests, lack of peer group acceptance is painful.

Maslow's hierarchy also gives potential insights into how people will behave when the ladder is pulled out from under them and higher needs are no longer met.


Quote
Well my friend, there are over 450 people in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

And keeping a low profile here as well.   :icon_scratch:


Quote
I studied your zombie research. Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

Right label, wrong reasons.  Right that their job requires a functioning government to feed and clothe them, wrong in that they are seeing government as the problem, rather than a small part of a bigger problem.


Quote
If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 
 


So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets. :emthdown:

Of course.  You co-opt the terms.  Had the 9th circuit ruled in favor of Seattle city versus the Yellow Pages industry, within a year the term "opt-in" in the yellow pages context would have meant, in common parlance, opting into receiving the yellow pages via an electronic delivery.  So any publicity of the term "opt-in", had San Francisco's similar legislation succeeded, been associated with "I can sign up to get an electronic copy" and not "I have to sign up if I want a physical copy (the law we were fighting).

In the modern world, you define the battlefield, not the weapons, if you want to win.


Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: RE on June 25, 2013, 06:15:15 PM
Quote
Well my friend, there are over 450 100 people and 350 Bots in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

Fixed that for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: DoomerSupport on June 25, 2013, 08:27:36 PM
Frankly, the term is deliberately derogatory, cardboard and two dimensional. It's a name calling propaganda exercise. For that reason alone, I don't think it adequately defines the populace who are victimized, willingly or unwillingly, by the matrix.

My take: 

When the shit hits the fan, certain decision makers want the organizations below them to be the whipping boys.  When the government can no longer provide the largess to pay of all the special interests at the bottom of the spectrum - people living on "welfare" and "entitlements" - then why not make the people who worked in the distribution system (public employees) the "bad guys".   

While the desperate and scared population angrily storms the social security and welfare offices, those with the means (money opens doors and buys passage) to migrate elsewhere will do so with little interference.


Quote

But your anger at the cogs in the matrix is, IMHO, misplaced. Your promise to ostracise them just as they ostracized you is based on anger at rejection, not the recognition of the ocean of propaganda they live in.

A good point.  Be prepared to evaluate everyone's skills, not just your own.  Make sure you, and everyone you love, has a post-collapse resume, or you have one for them.

I'm not just talking about when they come to the doomstead, knowing what they can do.  If we go though a major down-step in our living arrangements (a "fast crash" scenario) then everything they have based their sense of self will be gone.  Who are they, when the labels of twenty-first century, infinite growth, the future-is-bright culture no longer apply?  I doubt very much they will know.

We know there will be a lot of suicides if we have such a fast crash.  Being able to help those you love redefine themselves in a way that is relevant to the world that is emerging, may just save a few of them.

if they have nothing to offer a post-collapse world, then I'm sorry, but the prognosis is terminal.  Just like you would take the news of a fatal illness in that person, face the stages of grief for the loss of that person now, and those emotions won't paralyze you when the shit is hitting the fan.   

Who knows, maybe alternative therapies can work. You could take them hunting or fishing, maybe a connection to nature may stimulate some zest for life.  They don't need to know that a skill has post-collapse uses for them to take up a hobby, if you can nudge them in that direction.



Quote
Do you think I'm wrong? Tell me, why do you think last year MORE PEOPLE in the USA died of SUICIDE than car accidents? Air Bags or people being trashed by the MATRIX?  :icon_scratch:

Who do you know who that will likely take the easy way out if TSHTF tomorrow?  Spend a day walking around with that thought in the back of your head, evaluating everyone you meet.


Quote
Our PEERS in the matrix cog are WRONG. It is our job to survive the matrix. But it is also our job not give those in the matrix the finger.

It's bad for our health.  :icon_mrgreen:  Rather, we should work to, with a smile on our face of course, let them know the SCORE without hyperbole and with all our powers of persuasion.


I've been advocating "appearing as part of the system" from day one.  The current system is setup to allow resources to be directed to controlling parties.  Learn the system and play it until it fails. Only be prepared to lose a wooden shoe or two along the way.   :P


Quote
They say everything will work out. You say, sure it will, IF this, that and the other happens.

Ask them if they see evidence of this, that and the other happening or the EXACT reverse.  :icon_scratch:

Then if they remind you half time is over, you just smile and say, IT SURE IS. Let me know when you REALLY want to play ball.  ;)

I had that discussion with one of my staff today.  He started it.  Lol. 

He expressed concern regarding the political stasis in society.  I pointed out how it was going to go - downhill - and why.  I could tell he rejected this information on an emotional level and I was losing rapport.  So I recited some of the myths of American exceptionalism under the guise of "factors that made me move here" to re-establish rapport.  I ended the conversation with the usual, "it may get tough but we'll get thought it, we always do."   

Appeal to what "everyone" knows we losing - specifically values we are losing that they value the most.  Use the most ridiculous PC news story, as a "what is society coming to?!?!" story when gaining rapport with "conservatives", or the flip side when talking to progressives. People interpret the world through stories, so use a quick emotional point of connection that is linked with the downward spiral of society.  it's way, way more effective than changing the subject to "how's the local sports team doing?".

You can be the person who's saying it's all going to shit, if you agree that part of the cause for collapse is a cause they vehemently dislike.

If you want to help the maximize the number of people prepared to face the coming storm, you talk their language.  You're helping them prepare to get through the chaos those terrible liberals/conservatives (please select according to audience) will unleash on society with their madness.

 ;)


Title: Haniel said
Post by: agelbert on June 25, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/thankyou.gif) for your wise advice. It's the best we can do. :emthup: :icon_sunny:
Title: RE said
Post by: agelbert on June 25, 2013, 09:47:19 PM
Quote

Quote

Well my friend, there are over 450 100 people and 350 Bots in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

Fixed that for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

JC is never going to deliver that case of Samuel Adams to you with those numbers! :icon_mrgreen:

Now that is REALLY depressing. :jawdrop:  :crying:   
Title: Re: RE said
Post by: RE on June 25, 2013, 09:53:01 PM
Quote

Quote

Well my friend, there are over 450 100 people and 350 Bots in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

Fixed that for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

JC is never going to deliver that case of Samuel Adams to you with those numbers! :icon_mrgreen:

Now that is REALLY depressing. :jawdrop:  :crying:

Just a guesstimate based on the Podcast Numbers.

Fairly regular Guest Readership that occassionally drops in for a Read is likely a good deal more, 1000-2000 might be a good guess there.

I think the Podcasts will help gain a few more Sentient Souls in the Membership Numbers.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: GM and LD said
Post by: BC2K on June 25, 2013, 11:19:17 PM
In the modern world, you define the battlefield, not the weapons, if you want to win.

...but the battlefield is defined by the weapons, and it changes constantly

- having been a "sniper" all my life, the .50 BMG and it's smaller cousins the 30-06 & .308 are the weapons of choice in my arsenal


Hesse-Vulcan .50 BMG precision target rifle
1000 yards is enough for me - I never liked close-in fighting  ;D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415Fsg5L1OL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
On the doomstead it's "one shot - one kill" anything else is a waste of precious ammo !

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 25, 2013, 11:32:29 PM
(http://www.biggamehunt.net/graphics/photos_talltales/k_wilson_crossbow1.jpg)
Personally, I look forward to the day the Ammo Runs Out and we get back to Sling, Atl-Atl, Bow and Cross Bow.

You'll never have the Kill at a Distance Range as .50 Cal BMG with these methods, but the main thing here is to practice so you are accurate 10 yards further out than your opponent.

Level Playing Field is all I ask for.  WE GOT THE NUMBERS.  When the Death From Above goes the way of the Dinosaur, the Illuminati are TOAST!

(http://thisisnotalovesong.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/toast.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: BC2K on June 25, 2013, 11:52:46 PM
...jeez - Adam Weishaupt was a good guy ! ... what a waste of a good label...

I wish they would spell it "Illuminaughty"  or something else ;D

...and, yes, eventually they may die off (from starvation) - so hiding with your hoard and simply waiting would pay off too !

If you haven't been to the deep Maine woods, there are areas where even an injun hadn't planted foot in 150 years...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/34101/maine-hermit-why-christopher-knight-abandoned-society-for-27-years (http://www.policymic.com/articles/34101/maine-hermit-why-christopher-knight-abandoned-society-for-27-years)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on June 26, 2013, 03:41:35 AM

If you haven't been to the deep Maine woods, there are areas where even an injun hadn't planted foot in 150 years...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/34101/maine-hermit-why-christopher-knight-abandoned-society-for-27-years (http://www.policymic.com/articles/34101/maine-hermit-why-christopher-knight-abandoned-society-for-27-years)

That is one terrific article.
Title: BC2K said
Post by: agelbert on June 26, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
Quote
I wish they would spell it "Illuminaughty" or something else ;D

Good One! :emthup:  :icon_mrgreen: (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-042.gif)
Title: Zombie Snake’n a Box
Post by: RE on June 28, 2013, 05:04:21 PM
Part II of the Zombie Rehab series, Zombie Snake’n a Box (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/28/zombie-snaken-a-box/) by Diner Mod Lucid Dreams now UP on the Diner Blog!

Hoping for Part III & Part IV from Agelbert & Ashvin.   :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 28, 2013, 05:59:47 PM
Quote
Naturally the discussion about killing zombies ended up in the realm of religion. “Man does not live by bread alone,” inevitably came up. True, man doesn’t live by bread alone, but he can’t live without it either. He will die without the bread, and the zombies want his bread, so what’s man to do? Especially a man with children and a wife to keep alive. Recently I’ve had cause to reflect on the action of killing due to participating in some killin’ myself. Basically, best I can tell, life requires death. This is true all the way to the level of virus (which aren’t technically considered living organisms). In order for the virus to replicate cells must die. Seems the only life forms that don’t directly require death are plants and autotrophs. The rest of us need shit to die in order for us to live. To illustrate my point, I’m going to use an anecdote from my recent life.

I think there is still great misunderstanding here. Let me put it this way... if I had to make an educated guess about what AG believes (and what I have endorsed), based on the comments on this thread, I would say he agrees with the following:

-Death is an inevitable consequence of life in this world, as LD also points out. In fact, the Bible says the only path to true life is through death.

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--" (Romans 6:6)

-There are benefits to killing/death in nature - for ex., without predatory behavior, there would be overpopulation and ecological imbalance that ultimately results in more death/suffering for the prey than would occur with predatory behavior.

-Not all human killings are bad or wrong. Personally, I believe there have been justified cases of state execution and war, and I think AG would also agree in theory.

-Similarly, deadly force CAN be justified in cases of self-defense and defending others from deadly force, even people not related to you and people you don't know at all!

HOWEVER, most of these things are very fact-specific and broad comparisons simply do not work. Humans cannot be compared to any other animals on this issue. Broad classifications and equivalencies go beyond the reality of necessary killing/death, and go into the realm of philosophy, morality and ultimate ethical realities. Human beings have a reflexive self-awareness and capacity for abstract thought that make us unique, but when we fail to be prudent, to be critically aware of our surroundings and our nature as human beings, and to strive for a selfless mindset, our unique qualities also allow us to devolve into paranoia, bigotry, racism, hyper-nationalism, etc.

If it is possible to sum up this issue in a single sentence, my main objection here, and what I understood as AG's objection, was that this thread was not at all considerate of or receptive to these moral nuances and these ethical boundaries that MUST be stressed at all times, and especially in times of potential economic, political, social upheaval.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 28, 2013, 06:40:51 PM
Ashvin,
Agreed on all points. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)

As a Christian, one my early struggles was with a thought experiment that seemed like a hopeless paradox UNTIL I understood the MO of the Holy Spirit better. So, I'm basically going off the deep end here  :icon_mrgreen: simply because those that DON'T believe in the existence and guidance of the Holy Spirit in human activity (especially in dangerous or otherwise stressful situations) will claim I have a rather convenient escape clause to cover "unusual behavior" by claiming I was guided by God's Holy Spirit. ::)

My initial quandary was this. I am a Christian and if I die in the state of grace, I'll go to Heaven. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/47b20s0.gif)

But here comes a criminal low life and tries to knife me.  :o

I pull out a gun and point it at the criminal but he keeps coming. I assume, since he is attacking me for no reason, that he is NOT SAVED. That means, if I pull the trigger to save my life, I probably am condemning someone to eternal damnation.

So, am I supposed to let this human kill me so he will get a further chance to be saved while I go to heaven?

Tough call.

I was once at an ATM machine getting $300 out. An individual I was totally unaware of was rapidly approaching behind me. This was a shopping center parking lot that was empty at the time (late afternoon on a holiday). I got the money and, rather than open my wallet and put the money in as was my wont, I contorted my face in a scowl, whipped around to squarely face this guy with a fierce look on my face and the money in my hand. My action gave him pause and he stopped about three steps away. He said, "You've got a lot of money". I answered, "AND IT'S MY MONEY!".:angry5:


He turned and walked away. I waited for him to be gone, put the money in my wallet, got in my car a ways off and drove away.

I had NO IDEA THAT GUY WAS THERE OR WHY I WAS TURNING AROUND RAPIDLY IN AN ANGRY FASHION. However, had I not done so, I'm certain I would have been mugged for $300.

It was the Holy Spirit. Non-believers will scoff. Others will say I'm just psychic and responded to a threat my eyes didn't register. I have no martial arts training. I don't even like to confront people. That wasn't ME.

But it worked. Praise God.  :icon_sunny:

If I have a kill or be killed situation, I'm certain the Holy Spirit will guide my decision. It really is a matter of Faith. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 28, 2013, 08:44:07 PM


If I have a kill or be killed situation, I'm certain the Holy Spirit will guide my decision. It really is a matter of Faith. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)

that's why I like you Agelbert...

that's faith...

we all have it in something be it non-god or god...or even goddess perhaps

the point is faith...not logic :emthup:

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 28, 2013, 08:50:42 PM
Ashvin,
Agreed on all points. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)

As a Christian, one my early struggles was with a thought experiment that seemed like a hopeless paradox UNTIL I understood the MO of the Holy Spirit better. So, I'm basically going off the deep end here  :icon_mrgreen: simply because those that DON'T believe in the existence and guidance of the Holy Spirit in human activity (especially in dangerous or otherwise stressful situations) will claim I have a rather convenient escape clause to cover "unusual behavior" by claiming I was guided by God's Holy Spirit. ::)

My initial quandary was this. I am a Christian and if I die in the state of grace, I'll go to Heaven. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/47b20s0.gif)

But here comes a criminal low life and tries to knife me.  :o

I pull out a gun and point it at the criminal but he keeps coming. I assume, since he is attacking me for no reason, that he is NOT SAVED. That means, if I pull the trigger to save my life, I probably am condemning someone to eternal damnation.

So, am I supposed to let this human kill me so he will get a further chance to be saved while I go to heaven?

Tough call.

I was once at an ATM machine getting $300 out. An individual I was totally unaware of was rapidly approaching behind me. This was a shopping center parking lot that was empty at the time (late afternoon on a holiday). I got the money and, rather than open my wallet and put the money in as was my wont, I contorted my face in a scowl, whipped around to squarely face this guy with a fierce look on my face and the money in my hand. My action gave him pause and he stopped about three steps away. He said, "You've got a lot of money". I answered, "AND IT'S MY MONEY!".:angry5:


He turned and walked away. I waited for him to be gone, put the money in my wallet, got in my car a ways off and drove away.

I had NO IDEA THAT GUY WAS THERE OR WHY I WAS TURNING AROUND RAPIDLY IN AN ANGRY FASHION. However, had I not done so, I'm certain I would have been mugged for $300.

It was the Holy Spirit. Non-believers will scoff. Others will say I'm just psychic and responded to a threat my eyes didn't register. I have no martial arts training. I don't even like to confront people. That wasn't ME.

But it worked. Praise God.  :icon_sunny:

If I have a kill or be killed situation, I'm certain the Holy Spirit will guide my decision. It really is a matter of Faith. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)

I won't argue necessarily about the Holy Spirit, but I will say nice instinctual move. Got a bit of animal left in you.  :icon_mrgreen: :cwmddd:

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 28, 2013, 08:53:39 PM
Try skidding off the Glenn Highway at 60MPH and come out unscathed, without so much as a scratch to the SUV.  That just can't happen under normal parameters.  There is definitely something going on behind the curtain.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: WHD on June 28, 2013, 09:24:58 PM
Try skidding off the Glenn Highway at 60MPH and come out unscathed, without so much as a scratch to the SUV.  That just can't happen under normal parameters.  There is definitely something going on behind the curtain.

RE

The curtain is the thing.  :)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on June 28, 2013, 09:43:48 PM
Try skidding off the Glenn Highway at 60MPH and come out unscathed, without so much as a scratch to the SUV.  That just can't happen under normal parameters.  There is definitely something going on behind the curtain.

RE

When I was 14 I camped at a lake with my father.  I think it was in Arizona.  I caught a 14 pound catfish on my first cast and then neither of us caught anything after that.  My father joked that I must have hit him on the head with a weight and it pissed him off.  We ate him.  That night as I lay on the cot under the stars next to the fire...large red fox nuzzled and sniffed my head wrapped in the mummy sleepin' bag.  I was drunk and remember the sound of him sniffin' my head.  Then I remember pokin' my head out of the bag to see him trot off as a drunken blur lit by the glow of our fire.  There was a similar incident with my fathers father when I was 8.  We were camping in an RV and a bear attacked our camp site in the early morning hours...it was dark.  I remember how afraid my grandpa was...and I was not afraid...I marveled at the sheen of his coat and the strength of his will. 

I've almost died many times. 

I'm still here. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 28, 2013, 10:21:04 PM
Try skidding off the Glenn Highway at 60MPH and come out unscathed, without so much as a scratch to the SUV.  That just can't happen under normal parameters.  There is definitely something going on behind the curtain.

RE

When I was 14 I camped at a lake with my father.  I think it was in Arizona.  I caught a 14 pound catfish on my first cast and then neither of us caught anything after that.  My father joked that I must have hit him on the head with a weight and it pissed him off.  We ate him.  That night as I lay on the cot under the stars next to the fire...large red fox nuzzled and sniffed my head wrapped in the mummy sleepin' bag.  I was drunk and remember the sound of him sniffin' my head.  Then I remember pokin' my head out of the bag to see him trot off as a drunken blur lit by the glow of our fire.  There was a similar incident with my fathers father when I was 8.  We were camping in an RV and a bear attacked our camp site in the early morning hours...it was dark.  I remember how afraid my grandpa was...and I was not afraid...I marveled at the sheen of his coat and the strength of his will. 

I've almost died many times. 

I'm still here.

The Near Death experiences have a tendency to wake you up.

By no reasonable math should I still be alive right now to keyboard out this post. I should be DEAD at least 10 times over, each one of them with a Survival Rate less than 1:1000 I am sure.

I SHOULD BE DEAD
. But I am NOT.

Makes you think.

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: BC2K on June 29, 2013, 05:26:04 AM
There is definitely something going on behind the curtain.

Definitely !!

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2wg4nlg.jpg)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 29, 2013, 05:33:07 AM
My initial quandary was this. I am a Christian and if I die in the state of grace, I'll go to Heaven. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/47b20s0.gif)

But here comes a criminal low life and tries to knife me.  :o

I pull out a gun and point it at the criminal but he keeps coming. I assume, since he is attacking me for no reason, that he is NOT SAVED. That means, if I pull the trigger to save my life, I probably am condemning someone to eternal damnation.

So, am I supposed to let this human kill me so he will get a further chance to be saved while I go to heaven?

Tough call.

Tough indeed. Gotta think, even if you don't pull the trigger and die, how can you know this guy hasn't already reached "The Pharaoh" stage, incapable of choosing God? Every time the guy is shown mercy, he hardens his heart even further! Then you may just be giving him a chance to kill more people...  :oops:

Of course, without the benefit of time for thought experiment, our instinct will be to pull the trigger every time (or maybe something less deadly, if it's a small dude with a small knife  :whip:), which makes me wonder if there is a reason for that. Usually it's not our instincts which lead to evil, but our premeditated fears and desires.

This whole thing raises a good point about killing in general, though... even if you are not robbing the person of salvation, you are certainly defiling the imago dei, robbing them of a chance to grow spiritually.

Quote
I was once at an ATM machine getting $300 out. An individual I was totally unaware of was rapidly approaching behind me. This was a shopping center parking lot that was empty at the time (late afternoon on a holiday). I got the money and, rather than open my wallet and put the money in as was my wont, I contorted my face in a scowl, whipped around to squarely face this guy with a fierce look on my face and the money in my hand. My action gave him pause and he stopped about three steps away. He said, "You've got a lot of money". I answered, "AND IT'S MY MONEY!".:angry5:

He turned and walked away. I waited for him to be gone, put the money in my wallet, got in my car a ways off and drove away.

I had NO IDEA THAT GUY WAS THERE OR WHY I WAS TURNING AROUND RAPIDLY IN AN ANGRY FASHION. However, had I not done so, I'm certain I would have been mugged for $300.

It was the Holy Spirit. Non-believers will scoff. Others will say I'm just psychic and responded to a threat my eyes didn't register. I have no martial arts training. I don't even like to confront people. That wasn't ME.

But it worked. Praise God.  :icon_sunny:

If I have a kill or be killed situation, I'm certain the Holy Spirit will guide my decision. It really is a matter of Faith. (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1402/1402163an5yjq7sxr.gif)

I was held up at gunpoint in a poker game about a year ago. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use your trick!

I just prayed for the safety of the other players and for my safety. I should have prayed for the robbers too, but I didn't...  :emthdown: instead I prayed they get caught... oh, "and if You don't mind", my money back!

But the great thing about prayers is that they don't always get answered... if they did, what would be the point??

"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 29, 2013, 05:46:52 AM
Quote
I was held up at gunpoint in a poker game about a year ago. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use your trick!

This really surprises me Ashvin. Always had an image of your poker play being at a safe casino or friendly neighborhood game.

Difficult for me to imagine you in such an environment, just doesn't seem to mix, like oil and water.

Of course, this comment is meant in a friendly way, could not help relating my surprise to you.   :o
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Ashvin on June 29, 2013, 05:56:23 AM
Quote
I was held up at gunpoint in a poker game about a year ago. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use your trick!

This really surprises me Ashvin. Always had an image of your poker play being at a safe casino or friendly neighborhood game.

Difficult for me to imagine you in such an environment, just doesn't seem to mix, like oil and water.

Of course, this comment is meant in a friendly way, could not help relating my surprise to you.   :o

Well it WAS a friendly neighborhood game. Right in the heart of suburbia, not in the Hood. The host got too comfortable with security, letting people go in and out as they please and spreading the word too much for new players. Someone from the game was definitely involved... the bad guys knew exactly where and when to come and how many players would be there. They had a plan and executed it pretty well!

I only play in one game now, with TIGHT security and a mostly repeat cast of players that I know well.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: g on June 29, 2013, 06:10:09 AM
Quote
Well it WAS a friendly neighborhood game. Right in the heart of suburbia, not in the Hood. The host got too comfortable with security, letting people go in and out as they please and spreading the word too much for new players. Someone from the game was definitely involved... the bad guys knew exactly where and when to come and how many players would be there. They had a plan and executed it pretty well!

Yes, now I get it. Had false images of you playing in the back room of a pool hall or bar room with strangers as an initial reaction to your prior revelation.

What a shame, sure sounds like and inside job. Thank heavens you were unharmed and escaped with learning a valuable lesson!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: BC2K on June 29, 2013, 06:27:21 AM
I was held up at gunpoint in a poker game about a year ago. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use your trick!

I was attempted upon, but my Judge prevailed !

Use this trick:

http://www.youtube.com/v/jl-ZIo-Wztc#]Taurus The Judge - dirtydozensbunker.com forum&fs=1
(please watch carefully @ 1:42 ...you can't miss !)

http://www.youtube.com/v/uprAWN2fjYE#ws]Taurus Judge With Winchester PDX1 Loads&fs=1
"Praise the Lord, but pass the ammunition" - use Winchester PDX1
- the one reason I didn't stay Amish...

Those who die in crime have made thier choice...
I will die in Christ, I have a choice to live that way too...

Yours truly, BC2K

Title: LD, WHD and RE
Post by: agelbert on June 29, 2013, 02:07:07 PM
Thank you Lucid and WHD. It is a pleasure to find approval from men of honor.  :emthup: :icon_sunny:

And thank you, RE, for acknowledging that there IS a curtain.  :icon_mrgreen:

If you discussed that lucky situation you got out of unscathed here at the diner when I was sick, I'd like to read about it if you could provide a link.

If you haven't gone into detail, I'd be interested in the weather, time of day, geography and if there were other vehicles around. I love to read about stories with good endings.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: LD, WHD and RE
Post by: RE on June 29, 2013, 02:41:35 PM
Thank you Lucid and WHD. It is a pleasure to find approval from men of honor.  :emthup: :icon_sunny:

And thank you, RE, for acknowledging that there IS a curtain.  :icon_mrgreen:

If you discussed that lucky situation you got out of unscathed here at the diner when I was sick, I'd like to read about it if you could provide a link.

If you haven't gone into detail, I'd be interested in the weather, time of day, geography and if there were other vehicles around. I love to read about stories with good endings.  :icon_mrgreen:

I wrote an article Defying Death, but never actually wrote the Part II with the Glenn Highway accident.  Its in here somewhere inside the Diner.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/03/31/defying-death/ (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/03/31/defying-death/)

RE
Title: RE Dodges Death on the Glenn Highway
Post by: RE on June 29, 2013, 02:48:54 PM
Found it.  In the Frostbite Falls Daily Rant.  RE Dodges Death on the Glenn Highway (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=69.msg18741#msg18741)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: agelbert on June 29, 2013, 04:10:36 PM
RE,
YEP. Definitely the finger of God.  :icon_sunny:

I went over to the overpass just beyond Seward-Meridian on google earth. The area seems heavily used and could have easily had oncoming traffic that would have done you in.(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-052.gif)


I went along the street view for a while. It seems like most vehicles are pickup trucks, suvs or vans.

Alaskans are not going to like price gouging as gasoline gets scarcer.  :P
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on June 29, 2013, 06:19:34 PM
I went along the street view for a while. It seems like most vehicles are pickup trucks, suvs or vans.

Alaskans are not going to like price gouging as gasoline gets scarcer.  :P

Basically everyone up here owns some sort of 4WD vehicle, it is almost a necessity in winter.  I often can't get out of a parking spot without flipping it on, though I try not to use it once going, since it eats up more gas.

On that note, one thing I did NOT have presence of mind to do when I went into the skid was flip on the 4WD, which you can do on the fly in most 4WD vehicles nowadays.  Had I done that, I probably would have got rolling traction back on the front wheels and been able to straighten out the SUV on the highway.  Not something I was trained for on the Schneider Skid Pad.  If it ever happens again though, this is a new one in my Arsenal of Driving Techniques I will try first, before going Evil Knievel at an Embankment.  LOL.

Man, I really FLEW!  By chance, one of the people I know who was at the same event with me in Chugiak was in a following car and saw the whole thing.  He didn't know it was me, only next day when I was blabbing about it at work did he say, "THAT WAS YOU?!?!?"  He got off the highway at the next exit and went back to see if whoever is was was OK.  By the time he got there, I was already back on the road.  I am semi-famous now as a Stunt Driver.  LOL.

RE
Title: The 10 Actions, NO NUANCE, approach to the Zombie Apocalyspe
Post by: agelbert on July 02, 2013, 09:01:02 PM
The 10 Actions, NO NUANCE, approach to the Zombie Apocalyspe

http://www.youtube.com/v/jdI-OEbyHC4#&fs=1

I admit I do like the "stock up un peanut butter" idea.   :icon_mrgreen: Cheer up, fellow Doomsteaders! The late awaking humans are being advised to AVOID Doomstead communities because they are "armed and ready for a fight" (they probably have BC2K's choice the weapon --> THE JUDGE  (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae51.gif) ).

So what's wrong with this picture? Simply this. The human that woke up a little late seems to have EXACTLY THE SAME GOALS as the "zombies" (Get stuff and eat). NO NUANCE translates to ANYTHING GOES.

Is this a video a joke or is some clever Doomsteader trying to convince the hordes of hungry to stay clear of survival communities? Hmmmm... Could be.  ;)

What to do, aside from saving a lot of peanut butter and becoming self sufficient, etc., BEFORE TSHTF?

As Luciddreams says, "The best we can do is attempt to curtail that eventuality by fostering community.".


After TSHTF every person must obey their conscience.

Your stomach's contents or lack of them is a great motivator but a lousy guide to conscientious behavior. It is most certainly an essential part of the equation but, IMHO, less important than the spiritual side of the equation.

May God have mercy on us and guide us to the proper decision each and every time.
Title: ZOMBIE BUGS! Will humans be next?
Post by: agelbert on July 02, 2013, 09:16:28 PM
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/255/7/d/zombie_bug_wants_brains_by_lesatho-d2ykyik.gif)

Insects As Post-Apocalyptic First Responders? Creepy!
July 2, 2013

(http://i1.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2013/07/roach-scouts.jpg)

Imagine a terrible disaster that leaves the air toxic and the soil contaminated with radiation. A disaster like that, one like Fukushima or Chernobyl or London towards the end of 28 Days Later, that humans might need to – but might not be able to – safely explore. In almost any scenario you come up with, it’s probably easy to imagine that something will be able to survive – thrive, even! Namely: cockroaches.

A team of researchers from North Carolina State University have done exactly that kind of imagining, and they’re using special computer chips hard-wired into bugs’ nervous systems in order to create cyborg insects and control the behavior of some truly massive cockroaches. “Our goal is to be able to guide these roaches as efficiently as possible, and our work with Kinect is helping us do that,” says Dr. Alper Bozkurt of NCSU. “We want to build on this program, incorporating mapping and radio frequency techniques that will allow us to use a small group of cockroaches to explore and map disaster sites.”

The scientists are using a “hacked” version of Microsoft’s Kinect gaming system to control the cyborgs (cybugs? -Ed.). We’ve known for some time that Microsoft’s popular video game controller has a lot of great potential – but who would have thought it would be used to control cockroaches? Frankly, it sounds a bit gross, especially if you are someone who spends a great deal of time trying to smash the ugly critters, but there may be some genuinely good uses for such technology. ??? (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/gaah.gif) On the other hand, I find the way that cockroaches move creepy enough to begin with. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/nocomment.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/v/R-IzkGA9hTc#&fs=1

agelbert note: The above video makes me very, very angry. Such obvious, gratuitous Dr. Strangelove cruelty towards an innocent insect is at the root of everything evil Homo SAP is doing to the biosphere (and consequently and stupidly, himself). Under the guise of some contrived utiltarian function, there seems to be no limit to the horrors we are willing, able and enthusiastically commmitting. It seems we have picked up where the NAZIs left off. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-001.gif)Full Story here:

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/02/insects-as-post-apocalyptic-first-responders-creepy/#ZGprssmxsuZtUtqK.99 (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/02/insects-as-post-apocalyptic-first-responders-creepy/#ZGprssmxsuZtUtqK.99)

Title: Underwater Zombies? I've got just what you need to deal with them!
Post by: agelbert on July 02, 2013, 09:24:18 PM
Slow Motion of an AK-47 Underwater (Part 1) - Smarter Every Day 95 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5K6YymPe_M#ws)
Believe it or not, gas operated cocking is QUICKER underwater than in the air!
Title: Re: Answer to question
Post by: Petty Tyrant on August 20, 2013, 06:19:48 AM
I don't appear to have adequate post stats to reply in the dungeon threads. That's ok, I only wish that prudish put-downs also qualified as napalm to go there.

I think I would have the adequate chef status to participate if I had not quit previously in protest of RE's treatment of GO, and the negativity at the time. GO suggests now that my "absences" were instead due to ashvin. I would have said so if so. I had 800 posts at the time, more recently I did not quit but was just busy, as I had said. Whatever, it seems others can reply, I cant, don't really want to either,  but figure its the post stats.

Anyway, a question has been put to me by Karpatok and I do not want to appear to be ignoring it. The question was to do with the foxstead crew being desperate and dependent on RE for more prepping supplies, or words to that effect.

I don't believe that assessment is accurate. Firstoff they all have their individual  self sufficiency setups, in Alaska, Minnesota, SC, and roamer quitting nuclear power plant to do farms. secondly, RE is sticking to his principle of being equal to others by investing only an equal share rathe than just outright buying the block of land. Probably, if the others were not already well advanced in their setups as well as his own, he would put that principle aside and think it necessary for urgencies sake to take that plunge.

Anything else I cant speak for others, you would be better off to get straight from the horses mouths.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Petty Tyrant on August 21, 2013, 04:19:06 PM
What are you still doing here UB, weren't you going grizzly adams starting yesterday?.... You might ask.

Well I was, but around these parts, everywhere you go, people keep me talking for at least half an hour and I get held up like that and what should take an hour takes 3 or 4. So half the plan for the day gets postponed to the next day. "slow paced lifestyle" they like to call it.

Oddly I find it has its benefits. You cant google up info you need, or even look it up in a directory. Things you need are lying around folks yards, or people who can do things to help are not advertising etc, you get my drift. So by shooting the breeze, you hear who has what and who can do what, so many examples of this so far. Still, I find myself making it obvious I need to go by turning sideways and taking a pose sort of like "on your marks, get set, ready..."runners pose with my head turned back almost 180 degrees. That doesn't work, so until  someone else comes along to distract, Im stuck LOL. The result was yesterday instead of picking up the boy from school and heading to the farm I had to call the school and leave a message for him to catch the bus back and get reception to let him in, and I got back after dark. I was never any good at winding up 50 minute appointments on time  with talkative types either lol.

 So instead of spending the first night in the relative rough last night it will be tonight.
I set off yesterday a 75 mile trip to the nearest town of 3000 popn. to buy things I would need. First stop real estate agents to pick up keys. I learned that in that town there was in fact a martial arts club, MMA in fact, just it isn't advertised. Great news this, it was a big downer for me being here that the boy had no club or competition to carry on his MMA. In Perth there were no other 13 year olds giving him a challenge and he was up there with the handful of best 15 year olds in the state.  Another good thing for him is that the age grouping in Tas for what year you go in is taken in reverse to WA, so they dropped him down a year. This is a big relief for me as he was really struggling previously in school in all Non math, chem, etc, word based subjects. If I wasn't practically doing his homework for him he was failing. At least he was allright in math because I cant help too far with it.

So that will be about an hours trip each way to training from home, or 45 mins from school, that's ok.

Similarly detained at camping and clothing stores then on to hardware store where the only one line conversation was so funny I have to tell it...

In the city the hardware stores are huge warehouses where they have big trolleys to load up stacks of stuff. Not in a little country town, nothing but a basket. So this young fella working there probably 18-20 sees me struggling with my arms full of torches (flashlights), gas lanterns, solar lights and showers etc, and eases me of my burden, saying;


"What are you preparing for, the zombie apocalypse?"  :o



"sure am son!!!" I said.  :laugh: :icon_sunny:

Anyway I want to get some pics of the progress up, but wont be able to upload into computer for a while, so will take some with mobile phone  (only 2 megapixel) or  juniors ipod and email to the dd from the things I can at least keep charged from the car.

Adios again amigos  ;)  8)  UB



Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Eddie on August 21, 2013, 04:25:18 PM
Go well!
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on August 21, 2013, 04:38:01 PM
What are you still doing here UB, weren't you going grizzly adams starting yesterday?.... You might ask.

Is there Wireless 4G Internet where your Doomstead is located?

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on August 21, 2013, 10:11:48 PM
so if GM, Zen, Tribann, and I get a wild hair up our ass and want to move to Australia can we build a hobbit house for giants anglo saxons on your land? 

And yeah, I'll teach the boy some Aikido...but first I'll have to teach him how not to fight just like my Sensei did me. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Petty Tyrant on September 03, 2013, 06:16:38 PM
so if GM, Zen, Tribann, and I get a wild hair up our ass and want to move to Australia can we build a hobbit house for giants anglo saxons on your land? 

And yeah, I'll teach the boy some Aikido...but first I'll have to teach him how not to fight just like my Sensei did me.

No Problem at all LD, I need all the help I can get lol.

Anyway, 2 weeks down without electrickery, and two to go, before I have power to run computer. cant say more now since Im in library with a 10 minute use limit and Im over that already. Best Regards to all.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on September 03, 2013, 08:33:11 PM
so if GM, Zen, Tribann, and I get a wild hair up our ass and want to move to Australia can we build a hobbit house for giants anglo saxons on your land? 

And yeah, I'll teach the boy some Aikido...but first I'll have to teach him how not to fight just like my Sensei did me.

No Problem at all LD, I need all the help I can get lol.

Anyway, 2 weeks down without electrickery, and two to go, before I have power to run computer. cant say more now since Im in library with a 10 minute use limit and Im over that already. Best Regards to all.

That's bad ass UB...that you don't have electricity.  When GM and I went on our first date, I didn't have electricity in my apartment :D

I remember we went to the apartment for some reason, think she wanted to see where I lived, and there was no power.  I did, however, have candles...even when I was a 22 year old fuck up I was still happy without power.   :rain:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Petty Tyrant on September 15, 2013, 10:53:52 PM
last week I bought a small generator but its still in the box. I will start it for the football finals, but for regular tv I think about it and change my mind. Too many ads too much disturbance of the peace and quiet. a deck of cards and chessboard and library card do the trick.

progress so far is Ive bought 18 fruit and nut trees and put in pots, half way through building a temporary possum and rabbit proof cage to keep them in until I work out something with where to plant and how to protect.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: RE on September 15, 2013, 11:39:12 PM
last week I bought a small generator but its still in the box. I will start it for the football finals, but for regular tv I think about it and change my mind. Too many ads too much disturbance of the peace and quiet. a deck of cards and chessboard and library card do the trick.

You should pick up a 120 Watt Solar PV Panel.  It's enough to keep your Laptop charged up and in contact with Global Diners.  :icon_sunny:

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/843401361_1/Free-Shipping-font-b-120W-b-font-Portable-font-b-solar-b-font-module-kit-font.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: GypsyMama on October 15, 2013, 05:16:19 PM
so if GM, Zen, Tribann, and I get a wild hair up our ass and want to move to Australia can we build a hobbit house for giants anglo saxons on your land? 

And yeah, I'll teach the boy some Aikido...but first I'll have to teach him how not to fight just like my Sensei did me.

No Problem at all LD, I need all the help I can get lol.

Anyway, 2 weeks down without electrickery, and two to go, before I have power to run computer. cant say more now since Im in library with a 10 minute use limit and Im over that already. Best Regards to all.

That's bad ass UB...that you don't have electricity.  When GM and I went on our first date, I didn't have electricity in my apartment :D

I remember we went to the apartment for some reason, think she wanted to see where I lived, and there was no power.  I did, however, have candles...even when I was a 22 year old fuck up I was still happy without power.   :rain:

A sexy 22 year old fuck up...obviously  ;D

Something about a man who could still operate without power made me produce my OWN electricity ;)
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on October 15, 2013, 05:28:00 PM
so if GM, Zen, Tribann, and I get a wild hair up our ass and want to move to Australia can we build a hobbit house for giants anglo saxons on your land? 

And yeah, I'll teach the boy some Aikido...but first I'll have to teach him how not to fight just like my Sensei did me.

No Problem at all LD, I need all the help I can get lol.

Anyway, 2 weeks down without electrickery, and two to go, before I have power to run computer. cant say more now since Im in library with a 10 minute use limit and Im over that already. Best Regards to all.

That's bad ass UB...that you don't have electricity.  When GM and I went on our first date, I didn't have electricity in my apartment :D

I remember we went to the apartment for some reason, think she wanted to see where I lived, and there was no power.  I did, however, have candles...even when I was a 22 year old fuck up I was still happy without power.   :rain:

A sexy 22 year old fuck up...obviously  ;D

Something about a man who could still operate without power made me produce my OWN electricity ;)

Ohhh my :D :D

GM's back...she said she feels like Tribann has mellowed out some and she can now spend some energy here.  But don't confuse that wit da electricity she's talkin' bout.  ;)

Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 15, 2013, 06:33:27 PM
They say youth is wasted on the young and theres the proof.

When I was that age I was also too stupid to know that when a woman has made up her mind to go back to your apartment she doesnt really care about seeing the apartment lol.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Surly1 on October 16, 2013, 03:00:12 AM
They say youth is wasted on the young and theres the proof.

When I was that age I was also too stupid to know that when a woman has made up her mind to go back to your apartment she doesnt really care about seeing the apartment lol.

Hah! Made me smile...

Some times we need to learn to be able to take yes for an answer.

 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: luciddreams on October 16, 2013, 03:31:38 AM
They say youth is wasted on the young and theres the proof.

When I was that age I was also too stupid to know that when a woman has made up her mind to go back to your apartment she doesnt really care about seeing the apartment lol.

Hah! Made me smile...

Some times we need to learn to be able to take yes for an answer.

 :icon_mrgreen:

Fellas...she lost her virginity in that apartment ;D

Yes was said many times 8)  and without power. 
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: GypsyMama on October 16, 2013, 04:11:16 PM
They say youth is wasted on the young and theres the proof.

When I was that age I was also too stupid to know that when a woman has made up her mind to go back to your apartment she doesnt really care about seeing the apartment lol.

Hah! Made me smile...

Some times we need to learn to be able to take yes for an answer.

 :icon_mrgreen:

Fellas...she lost her virginity in that apartment ;D

Yes was said many times 8)  and without power.

*sigh*  It's good to be back.  LOL!
Title: Re: one stop shop
Post by: Petty Tyrant on November 05, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
Found this fantastic resource: www.diggers.com.au , Anyway Im going to the capitol city on the 30th for a community food rally demonstration to stand our ground on the govt trying to stop people growing and sharing their OWN fuckin food, should be good.
Title: Re: Zombie Rehab
Post by: Karpatok on August 04, 2017, 01:02:20 AM
  Progress,far from consisting in change, depends on REINVENTIVENESS.  There, fixed it for you AASHVIN. And "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Didn't need fixing. Just a reminder.

Thanks, but personally I like the original quote better...

My take is that God already did all the real INVENTING, we just need to constantly reminds ourselves of WHY we were given the privilege to be his moral agents on Earth. BAAARRFFF. Just more of the same BUSHWAH!

"Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering." Hebrews 13:3
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