Doomstead Diner Menu => Doomsteading => Topic started by: luciddreams on July 09, 2013, 02:21:37 AM

Title: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 09, 2013, 02:21:37 AM

Off the keyboard of Lucid Dreams


Published on Epiphany Now on February 12, 2012


ninja fox


Discuss this article at the Doomsteading Table inside the Diner


It’s interesting to note that with the increasing bouts of synchronicity in my life, the amount of irony has increased as well. The starkest bit of irony would be that I have resigned from the Matrix while at the same time increased the amount of online computer time required of me. This doesn’t bother me much, and that is mainly because it’s winter, and what else am I going to do? Winter is definitely the time for reflection and personal psychological investigations. Winter also lends itself magnificently to the writer in us. One doesn’t have to look out from a window at a beautiful spring or summer day that is begging, indeed demanding, assistance from us in our many post petroleum endeavors. During the winter one looks outside and is thankful to be inside, where it is warm. Not only are we thankful, we are aware that this is the time for guilt free planning for the year ahead. Even the most adept muddler increases his success by thinking and planning about what changes he must make in reality to continue following his (or her) bliss (I see people use “her” in place of “his” often and I’m always struck by how it reads differently…I use the male version simply as a matter of habit…not out of a sense of chauvinism).


In the month that has past I have been busy paying attention to my changing life circumstances. The 15th is the day that our POD will be picked up, and it’s also the day that we will be leaving the house we have called home for the last five years. There has been a small amount of melancholy on my part in response to this move. Mostly I reside somewhere between equanimity and joy when I think about my life now, but there are times when sadness is not only desirable but healthy and needed. It seems, here again, that Winter lends itself to these emotional states of mind. “The Winter of Our Discontent” comes to mind here. John Steinbeck has long been my favorite American author, and I’ve read about 50% of the work he left behind. I always identified with him on a personal level. My favorite aspect of John Steinbeck are the true human idiosyncrasies that he had such a brilliant way of writing about. He was sort of like the arbiter of commentary on the condition of man in the 20th century. He wrote about everyman and his struggle. He wrote about me.


The Winter of our Discontent applies directly to my current Resignation from the Matrix. The protagonist, Ethan Allen Hawley, is every American following the dictates of the American Hologram in pursuit of the American Dream. He thinks he wants success, and in typical American fashion that means anything goes. Robbery, extortion, usury, bribe, black mail, and all other measures of moral turpitude are fair game where “success” in the American sense of the acquisitive life are concerned. The logical conclusion to a life spent absorbed in hucksterism is one of suicide and this is largely what The Winter of our Discontent is about. Ethan is saved by a talisman that his daughter sticks in his coat in place of the razor blades that were to assist him in the dispatch of his own failed huckster lifestyle. His own lack of a moral North (beyond the hologram that is) fructified into a son whom saw no dilemma in plagiarizing his way into society’s recognition. After getting an honest man deported, and taking advantage of a drunken friend to service his endless desire for more, what could he say to his son about a simple plagiarism? In perfect symbolism his son is given an accolade from society for his ethical nihilism.


Herein lies the difference between the life of following your bliss and the life of following the dictates of the Matrix. On the one hand you are true to yourself and therefore everyone else, and on the other you are the mythical embodiment of the trickster. One you can stand beside your soul and hold your head up amongst your own harshest critique, and the other you must hide and never reveal who you are lest somebody take advantage of you. One leads to happiness, joy, and equanimity, and the other leads to losing the will to live. It’s important to note that the acquisitive lifestyle will always end in misery, because in servicing all of the material acquired, your life force gets siphoned out from you by inanimate objects. This while those in your life vie for your attention and time. America has no soul because it has been transferred to all of the loot we busy ourselves with jacking from whomever isn’t strong enough to defend against our infectious wanting.


What is the “Matrix” exactly. I’ve had more time to think about this lately since I resigned from it. In many ways it’s the perfect metaphor from within the Myth of the Machine (MOTM). This myth is a dying myth. It was the myth that serviced the 20th century, and the one that Steinbeck busied himself with outlining through all manner of magnificent fiction (he contributed much more than that to the American psyche, but he was living in the apex of the MOTM thinking). The 21st century needs a new Steinbeck, and one that will busy himself with writing fiction at a time when all that is left is a dying myth. What is to replace the MOTM? It seems to me that scavenging will be the default winner. John Michael Greer calls the economy of the future the “scarcity economy.” By future one should understand that this is the very near future. For many Americans this has already become the way in which they live, and not by any voluntary means either. For those of us who see the future clearly, we are entering into the “scavenge economy,” as I like to call it, now. It is a largely untapped economy that is literally found at the ass hole end of the empire. The American Empire is a gluttonous and inefficient digester, and so it’s quite easy to find whole and undigested bits of wealth in said shit pile.


This is what it means to be a scavenger. It helps to look at the animal kingdom to glean some information about how to scavenge. Look at the Crow, the possum, or the perfect embodiment of the scavenger…the Raccoon. Raccoons are professional scavengers that grow fat amidst our gluttonous society. A raccoons life is a good life and they don’t want for anything. I’ve watched many a raccoon help themselves to the cat food that gets left over by my outdoor cats. Urban Raccoons are a fearless lot, and I have had them walk to within a foot of me to get the cat food only slowly scampering off if I make the wrong move. They move at night and they seem to me to be overly satisfied with their place in our shit pile. However this is not the animal that I want informing me. The animal that is coming into view for me as a mentor is the Fox. This is an animal steeped in mythic lore. Yet again, here is more of that irony I was speaking of in the beginning of this essay because the fox is the mythical trickster. However this is not the same trickster as the one that keeps us from enlightenment. The evil trickster is the one Steinbeck wrote about in The Winter of our Discontent. This is the animal trickster whom gets what he needs by taking it as if by magic. In fact, the fox is amongst the magical adept of the animal kingdom and this shows up in fox lore. I must be honest and admit that I know very little about fox lore, but I intend on educating myself on the matter and reporting about it here. For now, I can simply say that the fox has introduced himself to me by way of dream epiphany.


Michael Ruppert recently found himself being ruthlessly teased by Joe Rogan when he brought up “fox magic.” Indeed, fox magic is the magical path at who’s gate I am standing and about to enter in earnest on the 15th when my POD is picked up. I see myself as a trickster fox as viewed by the matrix. Rather than hustling within the Matrix, all while paying homage to the corporate Bankster masters, I’ll be hustling just out of reach of the Matrix. Don’t misunderstand me, cause like the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar, I’ll be stealthily dropping in on the Matrix when need be. I spoke of bending the rules in my resignation, and I have begun doing just that. Dumpster diving is a great place to start bending the rules. It’s probably not going to get you arrested around here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.


The scavenge economy (black market) is booming right now. There is a lot of cash circulating in the black market because we can’t afford to waste our cash on the empire any longer. We can’t afford to pay ridiculous amounts of currency for things we can barter, thrift, or otherwise acquire for free. People, especially women, still have the want to shop for things. These things can be gotten for free and sold at a very fair price to gain the cash that one may find themselves in need of. All of this can be very easily done under the radar of the Matrix while also using the Matrix. This is what my wife and I are doing now. Last night, when the fox came to visit me, he gave me a nod as he scampered off back into invisibility. He imbued in me the source of his invisibility just as I presume he did with Mike Ruppert. It seems to me that the fox should be the animal mascot of our movement out of the Matrix. The fox is the perfect candidate to uncover the myth that we will write together. The myth that will service the 21st century Scavenge Economy of the Post Petroleum Human Nation. I can think of no better animal. As I’ve said I intend on writing more about the Fox and what kind of myth he may uncover for those like me (and likely you since you find yourself reading this). There is a business descending in my life, and it’s been dubbed “The Fox Den.” Good luck finding it…however if you are prepared it may find you.

Title: The Foxstead Chronicles 1
Post by: GypsyMama on July 09, 2013, 02:23:21 AM

Off the keyboard of Gypsy Mama


Published on The Butterchurn on July 8, 2013


our-sun


Discuss this article at the Doomsteading Table inside the Diner


sun-whdThe SUN Project


Sustaining Universal Needs: Journal Entry 1


I’m going to have to throw this blog up there, without putting the time I need into it to make it marketable…but I have to say, quickly (I’m a tired Mommy who can’t stay up too much later)… that the Foxstead is HERE.  I’m not sure why I didn’t see it before, but here it is.


Tonight I stood in our yard, holding a sleeping Tribann.  I saw our property and the surrounding land around us in a new, moonlight, light.  Moonlight was not the only light out there tonight, however.  These strange power surges echoed across the sky tonight too…shedding lots of new light onto this subject:  “Where will the Foxstead become a reality?”


In my mind, tonight it did.  It is now a reality.


When we first moved here, LD posted this blog:  http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/2012/03/epiphany-now-photojournal-1.html 


He knew, long before me, that we were building a future here.  THIS IS THE FOXSTEAD.


I’ve also composed a quick, mental, unedited list as to where I see the future of the Foxstead emerging that I want to share.  A sort of timeline, really.  It may change…it is preliminary, it is a vision and I am excited…so I am typing frantically to try to get all of these ideas out there to share.  I know it will take some time for these ideas to emerge, and be visible to the members of the Diner so I will have to be patient.  Please be patient with me, as well, as I begin the journey into telling you why I feel the Foxstead has already been created, right before my eyes, in my own backyard.


Tonight, as I stood in our back yard holding Tribann, I saw beyond the confines of our property’s chain link fence in a new way.  It was as if someone smacked me across the face, using some power electric technology…offering my bliss back, tangibly.  I took the bait.


Strangely, all of this talk about “Seeing” things in a new way is ironic.  I have a pretty severe case of eczema going on right now on my right eye.  It is all swollen and itchy.  Pretty unbearable at times.  It makes my eye water constantly.  Zen asks me frequently if I am crying.  It’s pretty ugly.  I took a few pictures of myself holding Tribann tonight.  I’ll share them later so that you’ll be able to judge for yourself whether or not I have a magic gypsy eye.  I’m thinking I might.  It may just need to itch and weep for me to see things the way I should, sadly.  I’ll have to find a way to welcome it in without such a painful emergence next time around.  So…let it be said, MAGIC GYPSY EYE, you are WELCOME!!!!  You don’t need to break out with eczema anymore for me to be able to see the Future more clearly.


Anyhow….when Roamer visited this weekend, we discussed how the trailer park/RV park model was THE way to begin our model.  Then I realized that there is a trailer park next door to us…a bunch of tin cans and EMPTY ELECTRIC AND SEWER HOOKUPS!!!!! COME on DOWN, Diners!!!!!  Reanteben?  Monstaa and girlfriend?  Ships ahoy, mates!


Then, I connected that RE had allowed us to make this address, this location, the center of the SUN project, which is essentially the Foxstead’s gossamer veil for the public.


Then I realized that when Roamer was here, we had shared the dream of owning a large piece of property to create a Foxstead.  I was pushing wanting to own property with  a Farmhouse on it.  Tonight in the yard, I realized that there is a FUCKING FARM HOUSE just across the field from us.  The empty, more than likely for SALE field just sitting there, waiting to be purchased.


Now…purchasing the farm house is going to be far into the future…but so will purchasing the RESTAURANT across the street from the Farm house.  Anyone who pays any attention to LD and his posts knows that he loves hole diggin’ and cookin’ up concoctions.  Be it ferment, mexican themed wraps, pancakes or biscuits…the man is a CHEF.  Lucky me!  Lucky boys, too!  Aunt Bee will pretty much jump the baby gate for some of LD’s pancakes.  Ask JoeP about the fermented hot sauces.  Ask Roamer about LD’s mexican cookin’ and AM biscuits.  We shall hold onto the dream of owning that restaurant.


Then…I see an empty field (also probably purchasable…easily purchasable, in fact.  Perfect for cattle, sheep, goats and some permaculture production of nut trees and perennials using Mark Shepard’s methods as brought to “light” in my eyes via LD and Roamer.


Then, I envision a sort of English garden where sheep are the lawnmowers of our paths.  The paths that connect the garden beds to the flower beds to the gypsy house.


Then I envision living in the Gypsyhouse.  Then I see our current house as a converted apartment for Diners to come.  Then the top garage becomes an idea for conversion into two small rental properties to bring money in to fund the diner…to promote it, to make it profitable.


THEN, those trailers next door look even more appealing for the money making profitability of the future.  I think of how the owner of the trailer park is elderly.  He’s knockin’ on his 80?s at least.  His son is apparently planning on clearing out the trailer park to build apartments.  Could we buy the land from them before that happens?  DO we have enough funds to convince the elderly father and perhaps his son, to sell us the land that the trailer park sits on?  Do they have a good enough relationship as to where the Father won’t sell the land to us before his eventual death?  Will the son accept a decent amount of money for the land to be bought before his father’s death?  These questions rolled around in my head.


Soon, I saw that we owned the trailer park.  We owned the land, owned the plots, and were BRINGIN’ in the RENT from the current occupants.  We spoke to one of those occupants recently.  He owns his trailer, but pays $300 a month parking fees for his lot on the property, plus electric.  Say we buy the trailer park…the current residents sure would be happy with their new owners if we lowered their rent to $250/month for good measure.  We’d create great connections with them from the start.  They’d like us.  They’d be interested in what we were doing or they would move their tin can.  That’s cool.  More room for RE to pull in his RV!!!!!!


Anyhow…that is as far as I think I can go tonight.  The screen is getting blurry through my magic gypsy eye.  I need rest.  Tribann is in my lap snoring, so that doesn’t help me make the process of staying awake to get my message across any easier.


So…maybe I’ll continue what else is around these parts of the Foxstead to the potential soon-to-be residents in a following blog.  For now, just study the below photo that I drew out tonight with the Wacom tablet that my former rich photographer ass purchased to be super master photographer.  Funny how things connect full circle.  Zen.


The photo shows that across the street from our property.  The blue is water.  The orange is peaches, the red is danger, the green is forest, the yellow is fields (empty, and established with vegetables and edible growth), the black is road, the gray is gravel.  NOTE:  the land with the pond and the fields connecting to the peach fields and swamp is FOR SALE and I am in LOVE WITH IT!!!!!  I plan on speaking with LD’s Mom and Dad about a co-purchase of this land.


ImageNext image I’ll post will be of our current set up, and will show the proximity of the trailer park, farm house, LD’s restaurant and purchasable fields and restaurant.


THAT’S NOT ALL FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Before I began this blog post, I began writing a little fictional tale of the future of this Foxstead.  I’ll leave you with what I wrote to lure you back in to the next blog:


—————————————————————————————————————-


This idea is going to have to be a blog, guys.  I’m not sure where my “traffic” is coming from these days, but I have a feeling that a decent number of diners might stop in every now and then.  The Gypsy house at the end of this hilly gravel road doesn’t see very much movement these days.  I’m unsure if anyone is out there, really.  Some of the more skillful minds who have survived the collapse we all knew was coming may know of some way to access the internet.  We wish you were all here.  Luckily, we have Haniel to take care of our server needs here at the Foxstead.  He’s saved our Server’s ass more than once from Big Brother and his burly siblings. RE still receives our messages and manages to get my newest messages posted at the Doomstead Diner.  He has managed to survive the great beyond so far, the old fart.


Here’s an update on what is going on at the FoxStead. The FoXStead newsletter: VoL 2: Article 3


Date: July 07, 2037


Authored by: GypsyMama and LD


GypsyMama:


Roamer is out roamin’ again. He’s put Zen and Tribann in charge of protecting his den. I hope those boys don’t burn it down. Some commune down in Arkansas hired Roamer to introduce another Earth Works Power Plant into their system. He’s still getting paid with room and board and a trade of supplies. The Oregon Trail 2037, some of us call it. I like to call it the Roamin’ Trail. He leaves here with a backpack, a cow and cart and comes back with vegetables we can’t grow in this soil, furs, little pre-petroleum perks like Twinkies and Whole Coffee beans. The Twinkies are zombie bait. They LOVE ‘EM! “Tie a Twinkie on a string and watch them swing” we like to say. The coffee beans are like pre-collapse gold to LD and I. We like to grind them in the mortor and pessel, heat up some rainwater over LD’s kitchen stove and indulge like it’s 2013. One of the last years before TSHTF (no longer only Diner code. That’s as standard as that age’s “LOL” now).


A new couple found their way here. By word of mouth, they say. We’re still a bit skeptical of them because we don’t know who sent them, but our base is so large now, it’s just hard to tell. Word of our Foxstead has apparently already spread to Colorado. That’s where they’re from, so they can’t be all bad.


We’ve set them up in one of the original trailers to the FoxStead. It’s the blue trailer behind our Gypsy House Hubb. Used to be Freddy’s Place. “Pesticide Freddy” the kids know him as. He was always spraying his roundup and seven dust on his collard greens back in the day…thought that was the only way to garden. He had no idea what us hippies were doing over here for so many years. He just figured we were young and unexperienced with gardening. He had never heard of permaculture and didn’t quite understand it when it was explained to him. He was a simple man. Poor Freddy. Those Aldi eggs sure weren’t worth the dollars they saved to try to keep that man healthy. He lost all he had to doctor bills and ended up getting kicked out of the trailer park before collapse hit because he couldn’t pay his rent. We hated to see him go. That trailer was one of the first plots we were able to buy. He was the first to leave the trailer park next to us. We took some of the Diner money and started renting out his lot and trailer each month. We began storing dry goods and lumber over there at first. A place to keep things dry, really. Then Roamer decided he was gonna take the leap, make the move, and begin working in Upstate SC. He scooped up one of the trailers for rent behind the Gypsy House. That was the beginning of our community.


———————————————————————————————————————


I plan to write, possibly CO-WRITE with LD a work of Fiction, the dream of the future of the Foxstead as we envision it.  Hope you’ll join us for the ride.  The bliss has returned.


Title: The Foxstead Chronicle BEGINS!
Post by: RE on July 09, 2013, 02:58:03 AM
A 1-2 PUNCH from the Wife-Husband Blogging Team of Gypsy Mama of The Butterchurn (http://thebutterchurn.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/the-foxstead-chronicles-and-sustaining-universal-needs-journal-entry-1/) and Lucid Dreams  of Epiphany Now (http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/) both UP on the Diner Blog as Feature Articles!

These two articles, The Fox Den (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/07/09/the-fox-den/) by Lucid Dreams and The Foxstead Chronicles 1 (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=1551.0;last_msg=26609) by Gypsy Mama are the first Revelation of what has been going on Behind the Curtain here on the Doomstead Diner for quite some time, the planning and execution of the SUN  :icon_sunny: Project.

A little before I was planning on making this a Publicly known thing, but ah, the ENTHUSIASM OF YOUTH prevails here...

I am EXCITED too.  It is all coming together here now on the Diner.

RE
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 09, 2013, 05:18:02 AM
This is an exciting development, GM.  What a wonderful epiphany to have that you are already where you belong.

Several questions I have for you and LD... I know you guys are into Permaculture, are either of you certified?  Is that something that is at all of interest?  Would you want to host a Permaculture design course at your place, either before or after the new property was purchased?
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 09, 2013, 06:47:28 AM
This is an exciting development, GM.  What a wonderful epiphany to have that you are already where you belong.

Several questions I have for you and LD... I know you guys are into Permaculture, are either of you certified?  Is that something that is at all of interest?  Would you want to host a Permaculture design course at your place, either before or after the new property was purchased?

I have a certificate of completion for a permaculture program with no precedence in the permaculture community..at least to my knowledge.  But no, I don't have a PDC, and yes I want one, and YES we would love to host one here.  Are you offering to teach it?  We could easily put up 20 people or so in tents, and I've got a plethora of permaculture projects and digs cookin' in my mind.  I don't have a "plan" on paper for this property...but I have one in my head. 

The next move, as far as the Foxstead goes, is buying the land behind us.  I've got to find out how much that fucker wants for it.  Think it's 50 acres...nothing but pasture butting up to hundreds of acres of pine forest.  Across the street however, there is land that is for sale, and it's got a large pond on it.  We can explore the details of the land, and acquiring it, on the SUN/Foxstead boards.  Don't wanna give the details away for free :icon_mrgreen:

At any rate, basically GM finally warmed up to the possibilities here...where we are...as a direct result of Roamer being here and us working together for a couple of hours moving Earth.  There is simply no reason for us to go anywhere, and there is no reason why we can't turn this property, with the addition of either the front or back property, into a Foxstead.  In fact, there is a possibility that we could buy the trailer park next to us and have 6 trailers ready for people to move into.  Or just use some of the acreage behind us for the camp ground idea straight from the prospectus.  Only thing is it would be about half the acreage, so we scale down to that, and get moving now.  I'm gonna look into gettin' my mother or father or both to buy the land for now.  Or maybe we can get some resident Diner Doomer Boomers to put some money on the line and invest for cryin' out loud.  Ima work on finding out how much money it's gonna take. 
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 09, 2013, 08:51:38 AM
Sounds fantastic.

From your drawing you indicate you're close to an interstate?  How far down that road is the closest big (100K+) city?  Hopefully the road is not raised too high that people migrating along the road would see the resources.  Otherwise it's gorilla planting of fast-growing trees to block line of site.

How big is the trailer park, area-wise, a parking spaces?



Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: GypsyMama on July 09, 2013, 09:05:53 AM
Lots of enthusiasm here, for sure.

The interstate is not nearly as close as it is in the drawing.  I basically just sketched out the nearby resources that I think could be useful to the project.  Line of sight from the interstate would not reveal our location.  You can't even see the local farmer and his production from the interstate.

I am horrible, downright embarrassing when it comes to math.  Scale kind of falls into that line, too.  When LD comes home from class, I'm sure he could answer the questions involving numbers so that I don't cause any confusion with "guesstimation."
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2013, 09:48:02 AM
Sometimes you have to dream it before you can build it. A very good post GM. So sorry about the eczema. One of my daughters suffers with that, although it's better now that she has gotten really strict with her diet.
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 09, 2013, 10:56:43 AM
Sounds fantastic.

From your drawing you indicate you're close to an interstate?  How far down that road is the closest big (100K+) city?  Hopefully the road is not raised too high that people migrating along the road would see the resources.  Otherwise it's gorilla planting of fast-growing trees to block line of site.

How big is the trailer park, area-wise, a parking spaces?

Interstate 85 is approximately 8 miles from us, and I-26 is about 10 miles.  Biggest closest cities would be Asheville NC at 70 miles and Charlotte NC at 70 miles from our location.  Although Greenville and Spartanburg are pretty large and we have GSP which is an international airport 25 miles from us. 

The trailer park has 6 trailers on about a 5 acre spread.  Agelbert did a lot of research for us on our area and we started a thread with that research on the SUN board I believe.  I'll find it and post our address and GPS so ya'll can have a look at what we're talkin' bout via space. 
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 09, 2013, 06:43:33 PM
This is an exciting development, GM.  What a wonderful epiphany to have that you are already where you belong.

Several questions I have for you and LD... I know you guys are into Permaculture, are either of you certified?  Is that something that is at all of interest?  Would you want to host a Permaculture design course at your place, either before or after the new property was purchased?

I have a certificate of completion for a permaculture program with no precedence in the permaculture community..at least to my knowledge.  But no, I don't have a PDC, and yes I want one, and YES we would love to host one here.  Are you offering to teach it? 

That's where I was heading with those questions.  ;) I do have an official design certificate so I am authorized to teach the PDC and hand out the same.  In all honesty however there are a lot of people more qualified to teach the course, if they would be willing, and I would be very happy to assist them; if none are willing, I would love to teach the course myself.  Provided, of course, that we could find sufficient number of people interested in taking the course.  Any Diners interested?

Quote
We could easily put up 20 people or so in tents, and I've got a plethora of permaculture projects and digs cookin' in my mind.  I don't have a "plan" on paper for this property...but I have one in my head. 

20 people is way more than sufficient; I'd probably want to limit it to a few less than that if it came to that.  However, that does bring up the question, what is the reasonable tenting season in your location?

Quote
The next move, as far as the Foxstead goes, is buying the land behind us.  I've got to find out how much that fucker wants for it.  Think it's 50 acres...nothing but pasture butting up to hundreds of acres of pine forest.  Across the street however, there is land that is for sale, and it's got a large pond on it.  We can explore the details of the land, and acquiring it, on the SUN/Foxstead boards.  Don't wanna give the details away for free :icon_mrgreen:

I definitely agree, and if I determine there is sufficient interest to hold a PDC there, I would take this discussion over there also.  (Yes, I would finally pony up for the SUN board because at that point I could make an argument the fee was a Legitimate Tax-Deductible Business Expense against my income from the PDC.)  In addition, I'm thinking I would offer a discount of around $110 for the course to anyone who was a member of the SUN board.  (A direct contribution for other people would not be quite so deductible, but people would be silly not to take that deal.)

Quote
At any rate, basically GM finally warmed up to the possibilities here...where we are...as a direct result of Roamer being here and us working together for a couple of hours moving Earth.  There is simply no reason for us to go anywhere, and there is no reason why we can't turn this property, with the addition of either the front or back property, into a Foxstead.  In fact, there is a possibility that we could buy the trailer park next to us and have 6 trailers ready for people to move into.  Or just use some of the acreage behind us for the camp ground idea straight from the prospectus.  Only thing is it would be about half the acreage, so we scale down to that, and get moving now.  I'm gonna look into gettin' my mother or father or both to buy the land for now.  Or maybe we can get some resident Diner Doomer Boomers to put some money on the line and invest for cryin' out loud.  Ima work on finding out how much money it's gonna take.
If it's not going to take that much, that could be a great selling point, you might not want to keep that a secret.  If the price is going to be daunting, though, maybe that should be revealed just to people who are already committed to the project.
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: GypsyMama on July 09, 2013, 06:47:50 PM
Sometimes you have to dream it before you can build it. A very good post GM. So sorry about the eczema. One of my daughters suffers with that, although it's better now that she has gotten really strict with her diet.

As soon as we are set with LD scoring us insurance, I'm finally going to take every food allergy test they offer.  Heck...any and ALL allergy tests I can gather.  We were close to finding out my allergies before LD resigned from the Matrix, but then I took a Claritin just before the test after leaving a house with cat dander, who claimed their cats stayed outside.  I couldn't breathe and had to take the Claritin.  Ruined any chance I'd have of getting a logical test result.

Eczema is just evil.  If I were alive in ages past, they'd have burned me at the stake for questionable witchery.

I'm workin' on it...getting tired of trying to find relief  though, I'll tell ya that.  Mine is stress induced, and we have a newborn I'm still getting to know...so I'm all sorts of flared up at the moment.  Sucks.  Thanks for your concern.

Happy to finally see this place for what it is, too.  Lots of options around...we were just meant to move here, I suppose.  Feeling good about a chance to get a few of the Diners here...or to perhaps host some permaculture classes.  That sounds wonderful. 
I would love to have a certificate someday.  Just watching a class in action would be enough for now, though.  Hope we can host a design course, for sure.  I think having one as soon as possible would be best.  We have a lot of ideas that we could use some help with.  We also really want to get this plan into action. 

We want to get some videos rolling for a YouTube channel, too.  I was thinking of doing a demo for a hugelculture bed.  We have a dry creek bed out there right now that could possibly bring in some interest.  Lots to think about. Excitement is high.  I have large dreams of this becoming the first location toward the cause.
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: RE on July 09, 2013, 08:05:13 PM

That's where I was heading with those questions.  ;) I do have an official design certificate so I am authorized to teach the PDC and hand out the same.  In all honesty however there are a lot of people more qualified to teach the course, if they would be willing, and I would be very happy to assist them; if none are willing, I would love to teach the course myself.  Provided, of course, that we could find sufficient number of people interested in taking the course.

We are looking to get Toby Hemenway for a Podcast.  We can ask him if he would like to teach it.  Even if he doesn't have time, during that Podcast we can advertise it.  I'm sure some fans of Toby would be interested.

RE
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 10, 2013, 06:18:42 PM
We are looking to get Toby Hemenway for a Podcast.  We can ask him if he would like to teach it.  Even if he doesn't have time, during that Podcast we can advertise it.  I'm sure some fans of Toby would be interested.

That would be truly amazing if Toby agreed to teach the class.  That would really place the Doomstead Diner on the map.  I shudder to think what the students' reactions would be if they were expecting someone of Toby's caliber and they got me instead, though.   :P
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: RE on July 10, 2013, 06:37:43 PM
We are looking to get Toby Hemenway for a Podcast.  We can ask him if he would like to teach it.  Even if he doesn't have time, during that Podcast we can advertise it.  I'm sure some fans of Toby would be interested.

That would be truly amazing if Toby agreed to teach the class.  That would really place the Doomstead Diner on the map.  I shudder to think what the students' reactions would be if they were expecting someone of Toby's caliber and they got me instead, though.   :P

I would not advertize Toby as Instructor until after I got his agreement to teach the Workshop.  Also need to find out how much he would want in compensation.

If he did agree though, I would of course PLUG THE LIVING SHIT out of it.  It's a Gift.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Foxstead Chronicles: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 11, 2013, 06:51:24 AM
well I'd have to drum up some local interest in permaculture which I've been unable to do.  I'm just not the best when it comes to seeking out other people.  Or would I?  I know I've looked into traveling to another state for the PDC.  As far as I know I'd have to go to Asheville where I did my permaculture training to find a PDC.  The people who held the "permaculture in action" teach a PDC but they do it over a long period of time.  They teach it twice a week for hour and a half classes and allow you to pay 30 dollars per class (I think) if you can't cover the cost upfront.  It's a great way to go, but I'd have to drive 280 miles a week to attend and I'm not going to do that.  Asheville is 70 miles from here.

So we talked about possibly having a class here, but it all fizzled out and I lost contact with them.  Thing is they really showed no interest in traveling to teach permaculture.  People in Asheville tend to not leave Asheville for any reason, which I completely understand.  There's plenty of interest there, and so permaculture teachers stay plenty busy locally, which local community is a big part of the permaculture/transition picture.  During PIA (permaculture in action) there were six other people who had traveled as far or further than I.  Two of them were from Atlanta Georgia and four were from Charlotte NC (which is actually a good 40 miles or so further away although in the same state).  Point is, people are willing to travel for permaculture because of it's relative scarcity.

So John, how much would you charge per person?  I say we plan for you to teach the class (if we get Toby awesome).  I'd also say we could maybe do it in the fall.  I'm done with micro Aug 25th and I'll be free until Jan 2014.  So the fall would be perfect.  We could maybe plan it for the fall equinox Convocation and just have the Convocation here?  GM and I would be open to that. 
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: BC2K on July 12, 2013, 09:10:05 PM
The last Permaculture class we had, I promised to cook chicken and dumplings for supper.

Little did they know, the chickens didn't come from the supermarket (!)... imagine the shock as I went about the business of the chicken part of the equation  ;D

(http://james-mcwilliams.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/chicken-killer.jpg)

A lot of people just ate salad that night...

BC2K rule # 14: Don't make friends with the food.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: RE on July 12, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
The last Permaculture class we had, I promised to cook chicken and dumplings for supper.

You should make the trip down when we host the Permaculture Workshop and Co-Teach!  If we can't come to you, you can come to us!  We are not quite so Paranoid.  :icon_mrgreen:  Advantage of the Tribal Paradigm, you don't have to cut yourself off from having Friendly Visitors.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: WHD on July 12, 2013, 11:23:56 PM
The last Permaculture class we had, I promised to cook chicken and dumplings for supper.

Little did they know, the chickens didn't come from the supermarket (!)... imagine the shock as I went about the business of the chicken part of the equation  ;D

(http://james-mcwilliams.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/chicken-killer.jpg)

A lot of people just ate salad that night...

BC2K rule # 14: Don't make friends with the food.

Lotta them permaculture types gonna starve then, if they can't eat what they see kilt. LOL  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 13, 2013, 07:36:41 AM
yeah that's the vegan/veggie talking to plants like they're people, typical Transition type.  The type that live in a cloud of their own collective delusional fantasies about the amount of calories the human body needs to do physical work (and be somewhat happy while doing it).  They also tend to think we will all be able to hold hands and sing and that zombies and a tyrannical government will be unable to break the hand held circle.  I mix about like oil in water with that crowd, and there was a healthy bit of that going on at the permaculture training I attended, but by no means was everybody like that.  Maybe 40-50%, shit there were some people there who had never heard of PO.  One of the guys was an Alex Jones fan whom thought PO was a conspiracy  :icon_mrgreen:

My best friends wife won't eat our eggs cause they come from our back yard.  Americans are dumb mostly.

At any rate, back to the proposed PDC.  I think it would be an awesome idea, and we'd love to host it.  It would be awesome to get a group of Diners together, on the ground, to all acquire a PDC.  That would be loaded with all kinds of hopium inducing symbolisms.  We all get together to learn how to design permaculture systems.  Hell, we could even use the time to collectively design the perfect permaculture design for a hypothetical Foxstead (not that it would be too useful in reality seeing as how you design around the lay of the land...which would be hypothetical).  I think an event like that could go a long way towards making the Diner an agent that brings people together in the real world.  Something the Diner needs IMO.  It would take us to the next level to be bringing people together in person. 

I say we shoot for the Convocation being combined with a PDC course.  Doesn't have to be here btw.  Somewhere a bit more north of here would be ideal (although we'd be thrilled to not have to drive anywhere and have plenty of space for tents).  If there was enough interest we'd possibly even be able to go somewhere where there is already an existing class.  Maybe get a group discount.  Does the 4 quarters sanctuary provide a PDC? 
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 13, 2013, 10:00:46 AM
yeah that's the vegan/veggie talking to plants like they're people, typical Transition type.  The type that live in a cloud of their own collective delusional fantasies about the amount of calories the human body needs to do physical work (and be somewhat happy while doing it).  They also tend to think we will all be able to hold hands and sing and that zombies and a tyrannical government will be unable to break the hand held circle.  I mix about like oil in water with that crowd, and there was a healthy bit of that going on at the permaculture training I attended, but by no means was everybody like that.  Maybe 40-50%, shit there were some people there who had never heard of PO.  One of the guys was an Alex Jones fan whom thought PO was a conspiracy  :icon_mrgreen:

Both the Permaculture and the Transition Towns movement have gone down the commercialization route, they are business models now.   


Quote
My best friends wife won't eat our eggs cause they come from our back yard.  Americans are dumb mostly.

Hopefully, when the shit hits the fan, they (or many like them) will still have an aversion to home-grown food and will stay away from yours.   


Quote
At any rate, back to the proposed PDC.  I think it would be an awesome idea, and we'd love to host it.  It would be awesome to get a group of Diners together, on the ground, to all acquire a PDC.

Thanks, I'd love to attend but I'd probably use the certificate for toilet paper, it's about all it worth in real terms. The skills I'd learn from you are what you are teaching are what is important to me.


Quote
That would be loaded with all kinds of hopium inducing symbolisms.  We all get together to learn how to design permaculture systems.  Hell, we could even use the time to collectively design the perfect permaculture design for a hypothetical Foxstead (not that it would be too useful in reality seeing as how you design around the lay of the land...which would be hypothetical).  I think an event like that could go a long way towards making the Diner an agent that brings people together in the real world.  Something the Diner needs IMO.  It would take us to the next level to be bringing people together in person. 

Why would we want to use designs based on observing the way nature acts and reacts, using the precedents of how things have stood up to observations, rather than expecting nature to conform to our will.  Remember, it's different this time. 


Quote
I say we shoot for the Convocation being combined with a PDC course.  Doesn't have to be here btw.  Somewhere a bit more north of here would be ideal (although we'd be thrilled to not have to drive anywhere and have plenty of space for tents).  If there was enough interest we'd possibly even be able to go somewhere where there is already an existing class.  Maybe get a group discount.  Does the 4 quarters sanctuary provide a PDC?

4Q has done permaculture courses,  not sure if the do them often but they connections close by.


Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: WHD on July 13, 2013, 10:12:47 AM
Quote
At any rate, back to the proposed PDC.  I think it would be an awesome idea, and we'd love to host it.  It would be awesome to get a group of Diners together, on the ground, to all acquire a PDC.  That would be loaded with all kinds of hopium inducing symbolisms.  We all get together to learn how to design permaculture systems.  Hell, we could even use the time to collectively design the perfect permaculture design for a hypothetical Foxstead (not that it would be too useful in reality seeing as how you design around the lay of the land...which would be hypothetical).  I think an event like that could go a long way towards making the Diner an agent that brings people together in the real world.  Something the Diner needs IMO.  It would take us to the next level to be bringing people together in person. 

We'd probably all just sit around watching your chickens, gettin drunk and making fun of each other.  :icon_mrgreen: But I'll organize a hole diggin class, explainin' things, critiquin', while you and Roamer sweat out all that beer. 
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: Surly1 on July 13, 2013, 10:13:27 AM
How about at Four Quarters Interfaith Sanctuary? Might be more centrally located... although still pretty far east for many.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: Surly1 on July 13, 2013, 10:14:25 AM
Quote
At any rate, back to the proposed PDC.  I think it would be an awesome idea, and we'd love to host it.  It would be awesome to get a group of Diners together, on the ground, to all acquire a PDC.  That would be loaded with all kinds of hopium inducing symbolisms.  We all get together to learn how to design permaculture systems.  Hell, we could even use the time to collectively design the perfect permaculture design for a hypothetical Foxstead (not that it would be too useful in reality seeing as how you design around the lay of the land...which would be hypothetical).  I think an event like that could go a long way towards making the Diner an agent that brings people together in the real world.  Something the Diner needs IMO.  It would take us to the next level to be bringing people together in person. 

We'd probably all just sit around watching your chickens, gettin drunk and making fun of each other.  :icon_mrgreen: But I'll organize a hole diggin class, explainin' things, critiquin', while you and Roamer sweat out all that beer.

I would pay to see that.

In b eer.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: BC2K on July 13, 2013, 11:16:06 AM
Thanks, I'd love to attend but I'd probably use the certificate for toilet paper, it's about all it worth in real terms. The skills I'd learn from you are what you are teaching are what is important to me.

You are SO well schooled in understatement, Haniel !  Credentials don't mean shit !!

There are so many "Certified" Permies running around out there like chickens with their heads cut off (and acting like it too) but no where to practice it... like it's a very "in" thing in the Mother-earth / homesteading set, and if you have the luck to push your way up to "Permaculture Instructor", you're on parr with the most elect Gurus chugging down suckerbucks.  Sorry, I've seen it too long.

And behold the number of certified "Master Gardeners" guru set who would probably not be if they could'nt get Miracle Grow to secretly save face with.  What is it about these people who just HAVE to be expert and spout-off, talking down to everybody ?!?!

I'm gonna throw stuff out here and there on the forum, but I'm not an "expert" on anything... I just speak of my own experiences.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: Eddie on July 13, 2013, 11:26:30 AM
A permaculture certificate is on my list of to-do's. My major interest is to make a plan for my land that will hopefully become the guiding force for my next few years of preps. I don't care about diplomas anymore. Very few of them mean shit, anyway, if you've noticed. But permaculture is where it's at in terms of getting sustainable.

I do butt heads with a lot of permies, though. Because some of the more active ones in the local yahoo group regard me a "survivalist"...a term that makes them want to spit when they say it. They are out to save the world through pooping in a bucket and building gardens in unused urban spaces...which is fine by me. My more narrowly focused attempts to take care of me and mine first rub them the wrong way. And, of course, the fact that I still manage to make a decent living puts me in the "them" category. Yeah, I'm one of the one percent. Right.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 13, 2013, 11:27:19 AM
Thanks, I'd love to attend but I'd probably use the certificate for toilet paper, it's about all it worth in real terms. The skills I'd learn from you and what you are teaching are what is important to me.

You are SO well schooled in understatement, Haniel !  Credentials don't mean shit !!

There are so many "Certified" Permies running around out there like chickens with their heads cut off (and acting like it too) but no where to practice it... like it's a very "in" thing in the Mother-earth / homesteading set, and if you have the luck to push your way up to "Permaculture Instructor", you're on parr with the most elect Gurus chugging down suckerbucks.  Sorry, I've seen it too long.

I asked JMG why is was so vehemently opposed to any sort of "Green Wizard" certification - his similar observation of the Permaculture movement was his reason.


Quote
And behold the number of certified "Master Gardeners" guru set who would probably not be if they could'nt get Miracle Grow to secretly save face with.  What is it about these people who just HAVE to be expert and spout-off, talking down to everybody ?!?!

I'm gonna throw stuff out here and there on the forum, but I'm not an "expert" on anything... I just speak of my own experiences.

So let's get together and learn form each other without the bullshit.

Knowing how to feed yourself is too important to be kept behind a paywall.



Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 13, 2013, 11:34:50 AM
Thanks, I'd love to attend but I'd probably use the certificate for toilet paper, it's about all it worth in real terms. The skills I'd learn from you are what you are teaching are what is important to me.

You are SO well schooled in understatement, Haniel !  Credentials don't mean shit !!

There are so many "Certified" Permies running around out there like chickens with their heads cut off (and acting like it too) but no where to practice it... like it's a very "in" thing in the Mother-earth / homesteading set, and if you have the luck to push your way up to "Permaculture Instructor", you're on parr with the most elect Gurus chugging down suckerbucks.  Sorry, I've seen it too long.

And behold the number of certified "Master Gardeners" guru set who would probably not be if they could'nt get Miracle Grow to secretly save face with.  What is it about these people who just HAVE to be expert and spout-off, talking down to everybody ?!?!

I'm gonna throw stuff out here and there on the forum, but I'm not an "expert" on anything... I just speak of my own experiences.

You guys are correct IMO.  Which, btw, means me changing my opinion.  I long suspected something was wrong with the permaculture movement.  Even when I was training with them in Asheville I considered myself a "rogue permaculturalists."  All of the Transition people I met I thought were, if not completely full of shit, then almost completely full of shit.  Shit like Cat Food Carol.  We're gonna evolve to not need to eat living things my ass.  It's complete delusion about the requirements a physical body puts on your reality. 

However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Having said all of that, the PDC is complete shit...I agree.  WTF I'm gonna pay 1000 dollars for a piece of paper?  So why don't we get together on somebodies property and install some rogue permaculture design as the central focus of the Convocation.  I've got plenty of holes need diggin' and food producing experiments need tweeking.  I've got a chicken keeping ecology that is ripe for evolution and transformation based on a bunch Diners throwing ideas off of each other.  We could keep a couple of campers/RV's on the property for while as well as tents.  I know you Doomer Boomers have them. 

So who all is interested in something like this? 
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: funkyspec on July 13, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
On-site PDC would also be a way to start and maybe even complete some labor-intensive projects at the fox den like installing canopy layer trees in a forest garden, earth moving for swales, etc.

Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: RE on July 13, 2013, 12:20:41 PM

4Q has done permaculture courses,  not sure if the do them often but they connections close by.

If we held the Convocation @ 4 Quarters AND get Toby Hemenway to lead the PDC, we could certainly up the Profile of the SUN  :icon_sunny: Project.  Regardless of whether the Certificate is Meaningful or not, a Big Name in the field would draw in more people.

RE
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: BC2K on July 13, 2013, 02:41:46 PM
However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Oh, there's no doubt about that !  Permaculture as such may be the only sustaining way to survive !!

All the stuff Mollison reaserched and wrote about is gold!  I took the course from 2 of his best pupils, but at least they are pretty much down to earth.

I spent weeks studying Sepp Holzer's farm in Austria while I was working over in Europe '89-'97.  He's a great guy, but it's going to his family's heads and they have changed so much I don't even know them anymore.

These are the founders, true Guru's, but the way the movement reveres them as demigods is what bothers me.

I've got people here in Maine that would love to put me on a pedestal, but I can't stand people sucking up to me like that.

What is it with special cliques, tight societies... I'll never understand... been a lone wolf too long, can't handle group dynamics.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 13, 2013, 03:08:01 PM
However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Having said all of that, the PDC is complete shit...I agree.  WTF I'm gonna pay 1000 dollars for a piece of paper?  So why don't we get together on somebodies property and install some rogue permaculture design as the central focus of the Convocation.  I've got plenty of holes need diggin' and food producing experiments need tweeking.  I've got a chicken keeping ecology that is ripe for evolution and transformation based on a bunch Diners throwing ideas off of each other.  We could keep a couple of campers/RV's on the property for while as well as tents.  I know you Doomer Boomers have them. 

So who all is interested in something like this?

Sound good to me, I certainly have enough on my plate as it is.  Here's what I had already planned to do if I were teaching the course:

1. Spend dozens of hours compiling the latest reference materials to put on discs to hand out to refer back to afterward
2. Make a special trip down to the Foxstead beforehand.
  a. Make sure all my systems were working
  b. Make accurate maps of the Foxstead and surrounding areas
  c. Inventory native and cultivated species on the Foxstead
3. Order copies of reference books in bulk
4. Make copies of the Foxstead maps for everyone, laminate several additional as working copies to use with dry erase markers
5. Make sure the material was organized in a manner to cover as effectively as possible in a short amount of time
6. Make sure meals, if any, are provided for
7. Make sure space is available for tenting
8. Make copies of everything that will be used during the PDC

And this is just what I've come up with before seriously starting to think about it.

Yes, I'd much rather just continue with my life and then drop everything for a couple days and head over and have a good time.  I don't need the headaches.
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 13, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Oh, there's no doubt about that !  Permaculture as such may be the only sustaining way to survive !!


When I just asked JMG what technologies he most wants to see survive and flourish, organic gardening and what we've learned about soil management in the last few decades was top of his list.

You'll have to wait for the podcast to know the other two.

Figured out how to convert to them to your walkerman for listening in the garden, BS?


Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 13, 2013, 06:06:21 PM
Oh, there's no doubt about that !  Permaculture as such may be the only sustaining way to survive !!

All the stuff Mollison reaserched and wrote about is gold!  I took the course from 2 of his best pupils, but at least they are pretty much down to earth.

I spent weeks studying Sepp Holzer's farm in Austria while I was working over in Europe '89-'97.

Actually, this brings up another good point: the PDC really doesn't teach you Permaculture, especially when you take it as a one-week class.  I was lucky enough to take it as a 13-week class, but while that was great on the design side, implementation was nonexistent.  What it really does it gives you the framework you need to teach yourself Permaculture through practical experience.

Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
Title: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: RE on July 13, 2013, 06:13:21 PM
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.

How much has to be "Hands On"?  How much can be communicated through Video and online Seminars?

We could set up the Convocation as a 2-3 Day Intensive Introduction to PD at Four Quarters, and then offer anyone who comes to that a 1 year Ongoing Online Course with Lectures and Videos from Experts such as Toby Hemenway, JDW, WHD, LD, BC2K Roamer etc as a FREE BONUS for attending the Intensive Workshop.

Some of the software Haniel sent me to look at is Education software.  Haniel can jack this shit onto a website faster than you can say "TEOTWAWKI"  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 13, 2013, 11:16:58 PM
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

One thing I think you missed was the scare quotes around the "free" for my ideal course.  Basically I would make it self-funding.  The students would not only grow and harvest their own food but also a surplus to sell at farmer's markets to cover their other costs.  Not only does this lower the costs for the students, but it gives them extremely valuable experience if they have any intention of making any kind of a living off of it, an area which is very poorly covered traditionally.
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: RE on July 13, 2013, 11:49:01 PM
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: BC2K on July 14, 2013, 08:40:11 AM
The ESTIA PDC course was given last year at our Epicenter Farm in Bucksport, Maine.  I took care of all the logistics, setting up the facilities, getting electrical power from a nice neighbor for the video projector, hauling spring water and wash water from town. Procuring food, materials, supplies and tools for evrything there.

Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths werw a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).

We had 14 university students who camped on-site for 10 days.  Meals were cooked in a kitchen pavillion by 3 sets of volunteers, each doing a 3 day stint, - one day was "brown-bag" for field trip to Eilliot Coleman's farm and the old Scott & Helen Nearing Foundation estate.

Charles and Julia Yelton, two of Mollisons original students in Australia, gave a VERY inensive course (reputed to be the best).  Every day had 8 -10 hours of lectures, demonstration and labs on every point of the permaculture scene.

Click for pics ==> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=594&q=estia+epicenter&oq=estia+epicenter&gs_l=img.12...3381.6804.0.8934.15.7.0.8.8.0.106.677.5j2.7.0....0...1ac.1.19.img.nYHBoLuNfl8 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=594&q=estia+epicenter&oq=estia+epicenter&gs_l=img.12...3381.6804.0.8934.15.7.0.8.8.0.106.677.5j2.7.0....0...1ac.1.19.img.nYHBoLuNfl8)
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 14, 2013, 11:02:16 AM

Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths were a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).



That reminds me, how onerous are coding laws up there in Maine?  Was it a pain getting the permitting for all your unconventional building techniques?






Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: BC2K on July 14, 2013, 12:08:15 PM
Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths were a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).

That reminds me, how onerous are coding laws up there in Maine?  Was it a pain getting the permitting for all your unconventional building techniques?

It depends upon the town... the most rural ones are fairly relaxed. None are forced to adopt Maine codes except for septic system design requirements.

Bucksport has a large paper mill, the only "industry" per se on the mid-coast of Maine. Hence some of the attitudes are more critical. The buildings on the Estia 'stead were all "grandfathered" before Bucksport adopted several requirements of Maine's more nationally recognized building codes. 

Luckily, the only thing the code enforcement officer demanded out there at Estia (10 miles from town), was a porta-john, and a wastewater collection system for "gray water" as we had no leach field in place. We got around that by having and old 275 gallon flat oil tank with a big enough hole in the top to pour buckets of gray water in. We were allowed to simply dump it into a municipal sewer drain when needed, but since no one came out to check on it we simply watered the gardens with it. We only used Dr. Bronner's hippie-era biodegradable soap out there for everything.

As far as my own solar house is concerned, back when I built it in the mid-70's the only building code on the books here in town (other than sewer system specs) was "Tar paper must be covered within one year by siding."    ;D
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: GypsyMama on July 15, 2013, 08:14:28 PM
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE

I find this idea to be very clever :)  Pretty genius, in fact :)  I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genius after this post. 

I'm just now stepping into studying the permaculture scene,  and know that there are "online" courses...but this is idea of combining "hands-on" with a followup of video interaction among students and continued input from the instructors is F'in BRILLIANT!  I'd be all over being involved with this course if I happened upon it while searching for a way to obtain a PDC.  I think this is gold.
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: RE on July 15, 2013, 08:29:40 PM
I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genious after this post. 

I have GENIUS ideas so often that they appear normal to me.  :icon_mrgreen:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OK0Z1ZEokGQ/TeCgPtZDZ9I/AAAAAAAABXw/a795qnNalvc/s640/batman-robin-1966-tv-egghead.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: DoomerSupport on July 18, 2013, 09:18:18 AM

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE

I find this idea to be very clever :)  Pretty genius, in fact :)  I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genius after this post. 

I'm just now stepping into studying the permaculture scene,  and know that there are "online" courses...but this is idea of combining "hands-on" with a followup of video interaction among students and continued input from the instructors is F'in BRILLIANT!  I'd be all over being involved with this course if I happened upon it while searching for a way to obtain a PDC.  I think this is gold.

How to provide a living for multiple families from urban permaculture and aquaculture is something I've been working on for quite some time.

Take a team of three gardening enthusiasts who need work.  How many aquaculture and/or permaculture gardens can any two of them maintain on an ongoing basis?  How many people can they feed?  I say two people, because that allows the third to take time off from garden work to handle a farmers market stall and other work that is best done as a commons.

Organic gardening techniques are so far advanced from the skills previous generations had that it's not even the same playing field.  It provides tools to allow us to live off the land without destroying it. Maybe not 8 billion of us, but a significant number for the amount of usable biosphere we may have. Of all the technologies that Greer would save for the future, organic gardening techniques were top of is list, as he expounds on the in the forthcoming podcast.

Home owners trade garden space for a percentage of the food produced in that garden, on a sliding scale dependent on homeowner involvement.  A completely hands-off member might give up 50% of the produce, enjoying a basket of fresh produce each week much like a CSA customer. Another may be gardening enthusiast who wants to be part of the network and handles a lot of the day-to-day tasks and trades 20% of the food to the network.

A third is having trouble making the mortgage payment so does a lot of the work, gives up 50% of the produce and gets reimbursed from the cash raised selling at market. After a few months the original three split and this person starts joins one of the second-generation teams, helping a few more neighbors, making enough from their share of the farmers market/CSA share to keep the wolf from the door.

Three teams of three do not need three people at the farmers market. So out the the scheduling of two-can-handle-what's growing you have surplus time in the local "cells" for one person to spend a few hours every week making really good compost, or building an aquaculture setup in a new network-members back yard. 

As the team grows, you'll want to find a person really good at recycling materials to make the aquaculture equipment, keeping costs down. Those who need good, home grown food are often not in a position to afford an expensive setup.

For something to really help to "save as many as possible" it has to be cheap, easily to replicate, and grows naturally, like cell division. 

The danger is this becomes a pyramid scheme instead of a net.

Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: luciddreams on July 18, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
I'll tell you one thing I'm certain of when it comes to food.  I don't want my belly to be reliant upon annuals grown in a garden.  For the most part, IMO, annuals are just spice and extra nutrition but not calories.

Ideally I want all of my calories coming from food producing trees, perennials, and animal husbandry. 

Annuals just have too many pests. 
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: Eddie on July 18, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
There has been some complaining on the permaculture yahoo group here lately that TPTB have restricted farmers to selling ONLY the produce from their own gardens, and won't let them sell the produce produced at another local farm at the local farmers markets. This prohibits them from helping each other out and  means that they each have to pay for a booth. Whatever system you devise, it would be best to figure out a way to stay under the radar of Satan State and local authorities.
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: RE on July 18, 2013, 09:38:13 AM

The danger is this becomes a pyramid scheme instead of a net.

Well, since WHD now has Toby Hemenway signed on for a Podcast, I would say we are well on the way to getting a Permaculture Education Network (PEN Mightier than the Sword! LOL) started!  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: WHD on July 18, 2013, 10:37:06 AM
I'll tell you one thing I'm certain of when it comes to food.  I don't want my belly to be reliant upon annuals grown in a garden.  For the most part, IMO, annuals are just spice and extra nutrition but not calories.

Ideally I want all of my calories coming from food producing trees, perennials, and animal husbandry. 

Annuals just have too many pests.

Root veggies are calories, plus fill, plus storable over a long winter. But yeah, fruit and nuts from trees and shrubs, animals for meat and milk. And ideally enough grains for beer.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Fox Den
Post by: funkyspec on July 18, 2013, 01:55:48 PM
Sorry for this off-topic question, but could anyone direct me to the premium member joinup link?  Thanks.

Title: Premium Dining
Post by: RE on July 18, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
Sorry for this off-topic question, but could anyone direct me to the premium member joinup link?  Thanks.

Blog Homepage Donate Button.  $100 Donation for Premium Membership.  :icon_sunny:

Glad to have you aboard FS!

RE
Title: Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 18, 2013, 04:04:50 PM

The danger is this becomes a pyramid scheme instead of a net.

Well, since WHD now has Toby Hemenway signed on for a Podcast, I would say we are well on the way to getting a Permaculture Education Network (PEN Mightier than the Sword! LOL) started!  :icon_sunny:

RE
Join the PEN and free yourself!!

By the way "Permaculture Education Network" (with the quotes) has 4 results on Google  ;D
Title: PermEdu.Net
Post by: RE on July 18, 2013, 08:26:46 PM

Join the PEN and free yourself!!

By the way "Permaculture Education Network" (with the quotes) has 4 results on Google  ;D

Guess who now owns  PermEdu.Net?   :icon_sunny:

RE