Doomstead Diner Menu => Geopolitics => Topic started by: Guest Blogger on August 06, 2013, 10:30:20 PM

Title: Remember
Post by: Guest Blogger on August 06, 2013, 10:30:20 PM

Off the keyboard of George Mobus


Published on Question Everything on August 6, 2013



Discuss this article at the Epicurean Delights Smorgasbord inside the Diner




The Clearest Evidence of Lack of Sapience


This day represents what, for me, is the clearest evidence that the human species as currently constituted lacks sufficient sapience to manage its own cleverness. This day, in 1945, the Americans, ostensibly the good guys in WWII(!), dropped the atomic bomb on a civilian population in Hiroshima, Japan just to show them we meant business. Two days later, one demonstration not being enough, we dropped a second bomb on Nagasaki. That should show them.


We were clever enough to figure out how to split the atom and do so in an explosive device. But we were completely without wisdom in doing so. And by ‘we’ I mean all of humanity. Yes I know that there are many who believed that the wisest course of action, at that time, was to drop the bombs. It was “conventional wisdom” that doing so ended the war sooner and saved American lives. And conventional wisdom is just that – conventional. It is what the masses think. Unfortunately the masses are deeply foolish.


Homo sapiens was the first species to display a radically higher level of judgment, moral motivations, eusociality, language, and abstract symbolic reasoning. But even so it was not the epitome of sapience. I have often suggested that the truer species name should be ‘calidus’ (clever) or even ‘pseudo-sapiens’. But the latter is not quite right since the capabilities listed are related to the brain capacity of sapience. So, what humans possess isn’t ‘false’ sapience, it is just ‘weak’ sapience. It is too new a capacity to have been honed by evolution for its role in modulating cleverness.


The evidence has certainly mounted over the years. Now here we stand having painted ourselves into an energy corner and seriously modified the atmosphere, hydrosphere, soils, and biosphere to our own detriment (along with that of many, many of our fellow passengers on Space Ship Earth). What remains really remarkable to me is that we actually knew enough early on to have prevented or very much lessened the current crisis. In WWII we were wildly ignorant of so many aspects of atomic power, including the political evolution that ensued. We rushed in, propelled by war (another piece of clear evidence) where wise men would have feared to tread. The precautionary principle applied equally to then and the recent events. But this situation is worse because we have actually gathered sufficient scientific information about the consequences that we should have known better. And, to a large extent we did, and do, know better. But because our collective judgment puts money over all, we ignore our own knowledge.


Each Aug. 6th I remember Hiroshima and what it represents, not as an historical event, but as a window into the nature of humans as we are. I remain ever hopeful that our species can provide the seeds of a much more sapient species in the future. The current one is no longer fit for the environment it has created.




Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 07, 2013, 02:15:12 PM
By the previously listed measure, using atomic weapons on Japan was one of the most raging successful things ever done in the history of military warfare.

If accelerating the extinction of Homo Sapiens is considered a successful outcome, indeed it was a raging success.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Snowleopard on August 07, 2013, 03:26:23 PM
By the previously listed measure, using atomic weapons on Japan was one of the most raging successful things ever done in the history of military warfare.

If accelerating the extinction of Homo Sapiens is considered a successful outcome, indeed it was a raging success.

RE

I guess i agree with both of you, somewhat.

From a military perspective atomic warfare was a success.    Atomic warfare capability does put humanity in danger of extinction directly, and also from nuclear power plants designed primarily to facilitate bomb making, secondarily to produce power, and with safety a tertiary concern.

As for FSA and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki:  The Lords of Karma have yet to speak.

Title: The Clearest Evidence of Lack of Sapience
Post by: agelbert on August 07, 2013, 04:32:19 PM
Quote
The Clearest Evidence of Lack of Sapience

Quote
In 1887, Heinrich Hertz[2][3] discovered that electrodes illuminated with ultraviolet light create electric sparks more easily.

In 1905 Albert Einstein published a paper that explained experimental data from the photoelectric effect as being the result of light energy being carried in discrete quantized packets. This discovery led to the quantum revolution. Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1921 for "his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect".[4]

Quote
Nuclear fission of heavy elements was discovered in 1938 by Lise Meitner, Otto Hahn, Fritz Strassmann, and Otto Robert Frisch.


The Clearest Evidence of Lack of Sapience is shown by Homo SAPs "priorities" according to Golden Darwin Award (http://www.envisionyourdreamsllc.com/Golden-Pig.jpg) exhibits "A" and "B".

A) Cost effective renewable energy photoelectric devices perfected and massed produced over 100 years after the discovery of the photoelectric effect. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/gen152.gif)

B) Nuclear fission bomb perfected and used in warfare 7 years after the discovery of nuclear fission of heavy elements. :cwmddd:  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/d2.gif)(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-017.gif)


Quote
The very genesis of the Manhattan project lay at the intersection of science and strategic policy, if not ‘diplomacy’, in its widest sense -- of negotiating a course of action seeking to ensure survival.

As we all know, Einstein, Hans Bethe, Edward Teller and a number of other
leading scientists had written to President Roosevelt to draw attention to the possibility of a weapon based on release of fission energy, on the one hand, and the danger of the Germans making it first, on the other.

(All but Teller  :evil4: were to repent later, after they saw what the atomic bomb did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki but it was too late by then for the genie was out of the bottle, as it were.

It is perhaps the biggest ‘if’ of history -- what would have happened if they too had, like Linus Pauling and Rotblat, decided to oppose, or opt out of, the atomic bomb project.)

http://www.nias.res.in/docs/NIAS_AAAS_WORKSHOP_ON_SCIENCE_DIPLOMACY.pdf (http://www.nias.res.in/docs/NIAS_AAAS_WORKSHOP_ON_SCIENCE_DIPLOMACY.pdf)


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/EdwardTeller1958_fewer_smudges.jpg/220px-EdwardTeller1958_fewer_smudges.jpg)
Historic Photo of Edward Teller in 1958  :P




(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uaTe3LIJaKE/TSgVM7Y431I/AAAAAAAAAFo/vvlurEEz3wc/s1600/2241Spaceship.jpg)
These guys have a photo of Edward Teller TOO! :icon_mrgreen:





Historic Photo of Edward Teller in ET Planet of the Naked Apes Observation Flying Saucer



(http://johnnyringoreviews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/nuclear_assault_-_game_over.jpg)
Hey Mking, CAN YOU "ADAPT TO THAT" ?  :evil4:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: funkyspec on August 07, 2013, 04:45:44 PM
The use of the atomic bomb during WW2 was most definitely NOT a military success. From the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Bombing_Survey):

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Plenty of senior distinguished US officers opposed the use of the atomic bomb during WW2 including:

General Dwight D. Eisenhower
Admiral Chester Nimitz
General Douglas MacArthur

and Admiral William Leahy (who served during WW2 as the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs before the position was so called), who said: "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Snowleopard on August 07, 2013, 05:37:45 PM
The use of the atomic bomb during WW2 was most definitely NOT a military success. From the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Bombing_Survey):

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Plenty of senior distinguished US officers opposed the use of the atomic bomb during WW2 including:

General Dwight D. Eisenhower
Admiral Chester Nimitz
General Douglas MacArthur

and Admiral William Leahy (who served during WW2 as the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs before the position was so called), who said: "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

It must have been interesting back then, when flag officers were allowed to speak truth to power, without the following resignation.   Not that it had much effect.  Obviously the defence contractors were in charge even then.

We can't be sure if Japan would have surrendered quickly without the use of the bomb, despite the opinion of those officers.   Nonetheless  atomic warfare was a success for the USA military (&MIC) in growing its budget, growing its strength, and increasing its role in "peacetime", regardless of the effects on the ground.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Randy C on August 07, 2013, 06:26:40 PM
There were officers within the Japanese military that believed that Japan must be extinguished if it could not rise towards the top in world affairs.  Some were ready for Japan to fight to the last man.  After the second bomb dropped the emperor intervened and called an end to the war.

It is easy to play Monday morning quarter back on the end of WWII, but given the way the Japanese had fought I don't think many American service men were looking forward to shipping out of Europe and heading to Japan for an invasion.

Were it not for the fear that the Germans might develop such a weapon, the US might not have pursued it and the Soviets would not have had the help they had from Fuchs in developing their weapons.  Then the issue would have been how Stalin would have behaved in Europe without the believed US atomic deterrent.

One must also keep in mind that the atom bomb didn't win WWII, radar did.  It may have ended the war in the Pacific quicker but it didn't win it.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 07, 2013, 06:47:42 PM
My sense is, both bombs were dropped to assure to the rest of the world, America will control the fate of the world, the next several generations. Empire, boys.  :exp-evil:

They dropped it because they could. And to show the world what would happen...

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 07, 2013, 07:42:32 PM
Quote
They dropped it because they could. And to show the world what would happen...

Ah yes, the same reason a two year old throws a rock at a bird. More evidence of lack of sapience... :emthdown:


(http://www.seanhyatt.ca/jm/images/stories/war/finalmonkeyblackcolour.png)
Planet of the Naked Killer Apes

The best tools are weapons hunt prey and kill the competition - everything else is secondary. So it goes. Not much has changed in several thousand years. Stupid naked killer apes cannot tell the difference between a spear point and an atomic explosion. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/budo.gif) :iamwithstupid:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 07, 2013, 07:45:27 PM

If accelerating the extinction of Homo Sapiens is considered a successful outcome, indeed it was a raging success.

RE

Certainly that wasn't a metric even under consideration at the time.

The fact it was not a metric is exactly the point of Mobus' article, that as a species we lack Sapience, or Wisdom if you will.  He uses the terms more or less interchangeably.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 07, 2013, 08:34:48 PM
Quote
and to win the war.

Dorian Gray could not have said it any better (or more rapaciously).

More evidence of unsustainability for you.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 07, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
Quote
Anything else is shoulda/woulda/coulda Monday morning quarterbacking.

Grieving for the people of those two cities, and the Imperial purpose behind that mass murder hardly befits such a metaphor.

Such callous disregard for murder, not to be unexpected from our most persistent troll.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 08, 2013, 03:35:33 AM
The use of the atomic bomb during WW2 was most definitely NOT a military success. From the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Bombing_Survey):

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Plenty of senior distinguished US officers opposed the use of the atomic bomb during WW2 including:

General Dwight D. Eisenhower
Admiral Chester Nimitz
General Douglas MacArthur

and Admiral William Leahy (who served during WW2 as the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs before the position was so called), who said: "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

Trying to prove a negative never works. Maybe this could have happened, maybe that, maybe the tens of thousands of Marines and millions of Japanese estimated to be killed in an invasion from the sea might have happened, none of this really matters in light of what DID happen.

Two bombs were dropped. The war ended. The purpose of those bombs was to end the war. They worked.

Anything else is shoulda/woulda/coulda Monday morning quarterbacking.

MKing,
Your assertion is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.
Funkyspec cites the relevant evidence, which you dismiss by asserting, "The bombs worked."
The bombs were unnecessary. Many military leaders now revered as near demigods said so. To expend on Funkyspec's:

Quote
The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)
Posted on October 14, 2012 by WashingtonsBlog
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-to-contain-russian-ambitions.html (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-to-contain-russian-ambitions.html)
Atomic Weapons Were Not Needed to End the War or Save Lives

Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.

But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

General (and later president) Dwight Eisenhower – then Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces, and the officer who created most of America’s WWII military plans for Europe and Japan – said:

The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.

Newsweek, 11/11/63, Ike on Ike

Eisenhower also noted (pg. 380):

In [July] 1945… Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. …the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude….

Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

General Douglas MacArthur agreed (pg. 65, 70-71):

MacArthur’s views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed …. When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.

Moreover (pg. 512):

The Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face ‘prompt and utter destruction.’ MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General’s advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary.

Assertions that the bombs hastened the end of the war are part of the revisionist history and mythmaking that became necessary to disguise the fact that in 1945 the government of the FSA officially adopted the ethic of the Mongol Horde, the wanton and unnecessary destruction of women and children, as offiicial policy.

Which continues fully in force through today, witness war by drone, the "double-tap," and other warfare by technology practices which future historians will roundly condemn, should any be left to write it.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 08, 2013, 04:50:08 AM
Assertions that the bombs hastened the end of the war are part of the revisionist history and mythmaking that became necessary to disguise the fact that in 1945 the government of the FSA officially adopted the ethic of the Mongol Horde, the wanton and unnecessary destruction of women and children, as offiicial policy.

Which continues fully in force through today, witness war by drone, the "double-tap," and other warfare by technology practices which future historians will roundly condemn, should any be left to write it.
Come, come, now, who's being revisionist?  Are we forgetting the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, to name two?  The wanton and unnecessary destruction of women and children was official policy LONG before Hiroshima, and in terms of total TNT equivalent dropped, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not even the worst bombings of World War II, they just accomplished in a single bomb what took hours of conventional bombing, of course not counting the radioactive aftereffects.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 08, 2013, 06:58:03 AM
Assertions that the bombs hastened the end of the war are part of the revisionist history and mythmaking that became necessary to disguise the fact that in 1945 the government of the FSA officially adopted the ethic of the Mongol Horde, the wanton and unnecessary destruction of women and children, as offiicial policy.

Which continues fully in force through today, witness war by drone, the "double-tap," and other warfare by technology practices which future historians will roundly condemn, should any be left to write it.
Come, come, now, who's being revisionist?  Are we forgetting the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, to name two?  The wanton and unnecessary destruction of women and children was official policy LONG before Hiroshima, and in terms of total TNT equivalent dropped, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not even the worst bombings of World War II, they just accomplished in a single bomb what took hours of conventional bombing, of course not counting the radioactive aftereffects.

Fair enough. But to assert that Fat Man and Little Boy did not usher in a new age featuring weapons of mass destruction is disingenuous at best.

My point was that we began a moral slide when we decided to accomplish with two weapons which formerly took hours or days.
The moral slide continues.

Both Jaded Prole and I are privileged to know personally at least one man who has put his body into the gears of the machinery of war in order to stop it. for him, it is a moral imperative. This he has done at great cost, both personally and to his family. By comparison, like most of us, I sit silently complicit, unable to summon the courage needed. But I do not accept what is being done every day, all over the world, in our names.

Here's an example of your tax dollars at work, and the good work done by the military industrial complex to secure "the American way of life:"

Bureau Investigation Finds Fresh Evidence of CIA Drone Strikes on Rescuers
If proved, US targeting of rescuers who respond to scene of earlier explosions are clearly "war crimes"
by Chris Woods with additional reporting by Mushtaq Yusufzai

(http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/imce-images/double_tap_banner.jpg)
The Bureau’s field researcher found five double-tap strikes took place in mid-2012, one of which also struck a mosque.

A field investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism in Pakistan’s tribal areas appears to confirm that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) last year briefly revived the controversial tactic of deliberately targeting rescuers at the scene of a previous drone strike. The tactic has previously been labelled a possible war crime by two UN investigators.

The Bureau’s new study focused mainly on strikes around a single village in North Waziristan – attacks that were aimed at one of al Qaeda’s few remaining senior figures, Yahya al-Libi. He was finally killed by a CIA drone strike on June 4 2012.

Congressional aides have previously been reported as describing to the Los Angeles Times reviewing a CIA video showing Yahya al-Libi alone being killed. But the Bureau’s field research appears to confirm what others reported at the time – that al-Libi’s death was part of a sequence of strikes on the same location that killed up to 16 people.

If correct, that would indicate that Congressional aides were not shown crucial additional video material.

The CIA has robustly rejected the charge. Spokesman Edward Price told the Bureau: ‘The CIA takes its commitment to Congressional oversight with the utmost seriousness. The Agency provides accurate and timely information consistent with our obligation to the oversight Committees. Any accusation alleging otherwise is baseless.’

Tactic revived

The Bureau first broke the story of the CIA’s deliberate targeting of rescuers in a February 2012 investigation for the Sunday Times. It found evidence of 11 attacks on rescuers - so-called ‘double-tap’ strikes – in Pakistan’s tribal areas between 2009 and 2011, along with a drone strike deliberately targeting a funeral, causing mass casualties.

Reports of these controversial tactics ended by July 2011. But credible news reports emerged a year later indicating that double-tap strikes had been revived.

International media including the BBC, CNN and news agency AFP variously reported that rescuers had been targeted on five occasions between May 24 and July 23 2012, with a mosque and prayers for the dead also reportedly bombed.

The Bureau commissioned a report into the alleged attacks from Mushtaq Yusufzai, a respected journalist based in Peshawar, who reports regularly for NBC and for local paper The News.

Over a period of months, Yusufzai – who has extensive government, Taliban and civilian contacts throughout Waziristan – built up a detailed understanding of the attacks through his sources.

His findings indicate that five double-tap strikes did indeed take place again in mid-2012, one of which also struck a mosque. In total 53 people were killed in these attacks with 57 injured, the report suggests.

Yusufzai could find no evidence to support media claims that rescuers had been targeted on two further occasions.

No confirmed civilian deaths were reported by local communities in any of the strikes. A woman and three children were reportedly injured in one of the attacks. Yusufzai says: ‘It is possible some civilians were killed, but we don’t know’.

However a parallel investigation by legal charity Reprieve reports that eight civilians died in a double-tap strike on July 6 2012 (see below), with the possibility of further civilian deaths in a July 23 attack.

Islamabad-based lawyer Shahzad Akbar says Reprieve’s findings are based on interviews with villagers from affected areas.

‘On both occasions [in July] our independent investigation showed a high number of civilians who were rescuers were killed in the strikes,’ says Akbar.

While some 2012 double-tap strikes appear to have been aimed at al Qaeda’s Yahya al-Libi, Reprieve believes both July attacks were focused on killing another senior militant, Sadiq Noor.

Noor is deputy to militant leader Hafiz Gul Bahadur. Both men are long-time targets for the CIA because of their support for the Taliban’s Afghan insurgency. Noor had falsely been reported killed on at least two previous occasions. It is not known whether he survived either of the strikes.

Read the rest here:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/08/01-4 (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/08/01-4)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Eddie on August 08, 2013, 07:07:21 AM
A major effect of the BUILDING of the atomic bomb was that it was in effect , the beginning of our secret military. Bureaucracies like the NSA and NRO trace their lineage directly back to the Manhattan project.

From essentially NO secret government in 1939... to today when we have an approximate 4 MILLION U.S, gov't employees with a job that they can't even talk about. I'd say that's been a slippery slope, and a huge contribution to the abuse and loss of our civil liberties.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 08, 2013, 07:24:34 AM
A major effect of the BUILDING of the atomic bomb was that it was in effect , the beginning of our secret military. Bureaucracies like the NSA and NRO trace their lineage directly back to the Manhattan project.

From essentially NO secret government in 1939... to today when we have an approximate 4 MILLION U.S, gov't employees with a job that they can't even talk about. I'd say that's been a slippery slope, and a huge contribution to the abuse and loss of our civil liberties.

Indeed.

Another thought occurred the other day: cnsider the number of people who now have a financial stake in the Natioonal Security State. Not only the members of the client defense corporations, who have a direct stake and skin in the game, but now the 2) network of  contractors a la Snowden hired by the NSA to sift through data and create "actionable intelligence" (what did you reall think was in Dick Cheney's celebrated safe, Snickers bars?); militarized and SWAT-hardened local cops (think Barney Fife in SWAT armor and a tank); the armies of TSA drones emboldened to sexually assault those foolish enough to travel; and those "security firms" and individuals hired by a variety of alphabet agencies to "watch the watchers," and their name is legion.

At a time when young people are living six to a house because they can not find meaningful or remunerative work because we passed laws to encourage off-shoring of American jobs, employment can be found in these parasitic and pointless "security" endeavors, which have less utility that theatre, but which continue to serve to remind a pasive and feckless people that they are being watched. and listened to. And fondled. All with malice.

Make no mistake: this government fears the people.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 08, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Certain things require no "more" evidence. They are a given. One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight. Those schmoes are sure gonna be surprised, when they realize that regardless of what they did, or hoped, or worked for, their gardening plot and solar panels sure can't help out much when what they REALLY needed was to find a way to get a couple more billion tons a day of hydrogen fed to the local nuclear furnace to keep the lights on!
Actually MK you have it all wrong.  Global warming will do us in long before peak hydrogen.  The Sun is gradually heating up and within a billion years the Earth's oceans will have all boiled away.  Before that though, I've seen estimates that in as little as a million years there would need to be 0 carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to keep the average wet bulb temperature under 95 F, which is what humans need to survive.

This is the best argument against extinction, IMHO.  Letting ourselves go extinct is morally equivalent to suicide in my book.  The responsible thing to do is to stick around and clean up the mess we've made.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 08, 2013, 10:55:26 AM
Quote
and to win the war.

Dorian Gray could not have said it any better (or more rapaciously).

More evidence of unsustainability for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

Certain things require no "more" evidence. They are a given. One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight. Those schmoes are sure gonna be surprised, when they realize that regardless of what they did, or hoped, or worked for, their gardening plot and solar panels sure can't help out much when what they REALLY needed was to find a way to get a couple more billion tons a day of hydrogen fed to the local nuclear furnace to keep the lights on!

I.E. More BAU, fuck the little guy, it goes without saying we had to drop those bombs on those little people, fuck them - from our resident troll, who thinks since peak hydrogen on the sun will come eventually, the only thing to be done is rape each other and the planet, to whatever degree we can.

I know you didn't say it exactly like that, troll. I'm just interpreting for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 08, 2013, 12:20:04 PM
One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight.

Anybody else notice that whenever Socrates is getting destroyed in an argument  he brings us Peak Hydrogen on the Sun? :icon_sunny:  How much mileage can he get from this strawman?  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 08, 2013, 02:12:38 PM
Quote
I.E. More BAU, fuck the little guy, it goes without saying we had to drop those bombs on those little people, fuck them - from our resident troll, who thinks since peak hydrogen on the sun will come eventually, the only thing to be done is rape each other and the planet, to whatever degree we can.

I know you didn't say it exactly like that, troll. I'm just interpreting for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

WHD


My dear fellow! I have now confirmed the fact that you can perceive MKing's rapaciously reprobate, felonious celebration of barbarity for fun and sadistic joy quite accurately! :emthup:

IOW you've got MKing's NUMBER!  :icon_mrgreen:   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)



(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mY0CgRuJi-Q/UaHOy7RuI_I/AAAAAAAAEOY/wgEoi5JasBI/s320/9.jpg)
MKing hard at troll duty.  :evil4:
Title: Manhattan Project = $20 billion All OTHER WWII explosives = $31.5 billion
Post by: agelbert on August 08, 2013, 03:52:03 PM
The Costs of the Manhattan Project

- All figures in constant 1996 dollars -

Expenditures through August 1945:*

*Includes costs from 1940-42 for the National Defense Research Council and the Office of Scientific Research and Development. Excludes $76 million spent by the Army Air Forces on Project SILVERPLATE from September 1943 through September 1945 (Project SILVERPLATE covered the modification of 46 B-29 bombers in support of the Manhattan Project, trained the personnel of the 509th composite bombing group, and provided logistical support for units based at Tinian Island, launching point for the attacks on Japan).

$20 billion  =  $29.8 billion in 2013


Comparison With Selected WWII Expenditures:

Cost data are for 1942-1945. The total cost to the United States for World War II was approximately $3.3 trillion.)

All bombs, mines and grenades — $31.5 billion  =   $46.2 billion in 2013

Small arms materiel (not incl. ammunition) — $24 billion
All tanks — $64 billion
Heavy field artillery — $4 billion
All other artillery — $33.6 billion

Atomic devices/bombs produced and date detonated:
 
Gadget   July 16, 1945   Alamogordo      
Little Boy    August 6, 1945   Hiroshima      
Fat Man   August 9, 1945   Nagasaki      
Bomb No. 4   unused      

Average cost per atomic device/bomb:
$5 billion        =         $7.5 billion in 2013 (GOLDEN DARWIN AWARDED 4 TIMES!) (http://www.envisionyourdreamsllc.com/Golden-Pig.jpg)
 

WE DIDN'T NEED THE BOMB OR THE EXPENSE, PERIOD!

But SOMEBODY MADE A LOT OF MONEY...

Here's WHO:



Site/Project                                Then-year Dollars      Constant 1996 Dollars
 
OAK RIDGE (Total)                               $1,188,352,000   $13,565,662,000      
—K-25 Gaseous Diffusion Plant   $512,166,000   $5,846,644,000      
—Y-12 Electromagnetic Plant                    $477,631,000   $5,452,409,000      
—Clinton Engineer Works, HQ and central utilities   $155,951,000   $1,780,263,000      
—Clinton Laboratories                 $26,932,000   $307,443,000      
—S-50 Thermal Diffusion Plant   $15,672,000   $178,904,000      
HANFORD ENGINEER WORKS              $390,124,000   $4,453,470,000      
SPECIAL OPERATING MATERIALS   $103,369,000   $1,180,011,000      
LOS ALAMOS PROJECT                  $74,055,000   $845,377,000      
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT   $69,681,000   $795,445,000      
GOVERNMENT OVERHEAD                  $37,255,000   $425,285,000      
HEAVY WATER PLANTS1                 $26,768,000   $305,571,000      

Grand Total                       $1,889,604,000      $21,570,821,000 =  $32,147,274,217 in 2013
 
   


Sources: Richard G. Hewlett and Oscar E. Anderson, Jr.,

The New World: A History of the United States Atomic Energy Commission, Volume 1, 1939/1946

(Oak Ridge, Tennessee: U.S. AEC Technical Information Center, 1972), pp. 723-724. Includes capital and operations costs from 1942 through 1945. Costs adjusted using a base year of 1944 (the year of highest Manhattan Project expenditures). Actual costs per facility per year are apparently unknown.  :evil4:  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/acigar.gif)
1

Designed and constructed by E.B. Badger and Sons and the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada in Trail, British Columbia and by E. I. duPont de Nemours and Company in Morgantown, West Virginia, Montgomery, Alabama, and Dana, Indiana.
 
http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/archive/nucweapons/manhattan (http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/archive/nucweapons/manhattan)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 08, 2013, 04:26:43 PM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-032.gif)      (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/245.gif)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 08, 2013, 06:11:13 PM

You might not like the facts of the physical world, but fortunately you not liking them doesn't make them go away.

The fact the Sun will eventually go Red Giant is not a fact of the physical world I lose the least bit of sleep over.  We have nearer term issues to deal with here. I can put off worrying about that one until I am reincarnated a bunch more times.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 08, 2013, 10:39:08 PM

That is the spirit! Once you accept the doom of the species regardless of what and how and why we do things to each other and our planet, the much more jovial fellow you will be!

The fact in the the long run, the survival rate of everyone drops to ZERO (thank you Tyler Durden) is not a good rationale for turning the Planet into a Sewer and accelerating the process.  That is basically on a species level choosing Suicide as opposed to living out your lifespan and succumbing to Death from Old Age.

Quote
Excellent progress you are making! Pretty soon you might not even feel the urge to hide in the woods any more!

I'm not "Hiding in the Woods".  I am not doing subsistence living out in the Bush.  I just live in one of the lowest population zones on the Planet with the best resources still available that you can get a 24/7 Wireless Connection to the Internet.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 08, 2013, 10:52:15 PM
Quote
The bombs were dropped. Japan surrendered in days. The guilt felt by those who always think there should be another way can in no way prove that without the bombs the Japanese would have surrendered in early August, 1945. Why? Because the bombs obviously worked, and that fact cannot be disputed without some convoluted, after the fact tap dancing.

Remember,

MKing will sanction the dropping of nuclear bombs on you if it will quell your rebellion.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 09, 2013, 03:35:45 AM
Trying to prove a negative never works. Maybe this could have happened, maybe that, maybe the tens of thousands of Marines and millions of Japanese estimated to be killed in an invasion from the sea might have happened, none of this really matters in light of what DID happen.

Two bombs were dropped. The war ended. The purpose of those bombs was to end the war. They worked.

Anything else is shoulda/woulda/coulda Monday morning quarterbacking.

MKing,
Your assertion is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.
Funkyspec cites the relevant evidence, which you dismiss by asserting, "The bombs worked."
The bombs were unnecessary. Many military leaders now revered as near demigods said so. To expend on Funkyspec's:

You cannot prove the negative. And I am quite happy to break most things down to factual component pieces to make sure that it is always the other party having to come up with convoluted semantics to dodge basic, factual issues.

The bombs were dropped. Japan surrendered in days. The guilt felt by those who always think there should be another way can in no way prove that without the bombs the Japanese would have surrendered in early August, 1945. Why? Because the bombs obviously worked, and that fact cannot be disputed without some convoluted, after the fact tap dancing.

Quote from: Surly1
Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.
But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.
The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

Thanks for putting a date on exactly when the Monday morning tap dancing officially began.

You are nothing of not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Coincidence is not causation. History, as you would know if you would allow any sunlight into the airless vault of your mind, is written by the winners. Other viewpoints are ignored, shunned, or ridiculed. In much the same way as you are doing here.

As a man I once worked for once said, "Often wrong, but never in doubt."
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 09, 2013, 03:58:43 AM

You are nothing if not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Let me Translate that to Diner Lingo, RE style.  IMHO, Surly lacks enough Surliness.  :icon_mrgreen:

Socrates is a PUKE FACTORY.  The VOMIT coming off his keyboard will make you SICK.

I hope this makes it clear to the newbies.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 09, 2013, 12:06:04 PM
You are nothing of not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Some might just call it "give reality a chance", but I understand the need for everything to fit into some greater, America is bad context, empire this, GMO that, regardless of the facts of the matter, the logical inconsistencies, those sorts of issues.

Quote from: Surly1
Coincidence is not causation.

Go teach your grandmother to suck eggs, this one gets taught in "How To Be A Scientist 101".

And sure, you are right, the Japanese were already preparing for the big surrender party on September 2, 1945 and the bombs just got in the way of collecting the sushi and saki for the party. Right.

Hey Dickless!

That's right.

You. Dickless.

I will not deal with the rest of your masturbatory diatribe, although rest assured I could dispatch it with the easy aplomb that I will this argument here.

Let's talk history, shall we? Let's consult the evidence. These are what the smart kids call facts.

Quote
   "It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima
    and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.
    The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being
    the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the
    barbarians of the Dark Ages."

    ---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
    Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II

*
A timeline of events in the Pacific Theatre

January 1945 - *MacArthur forwarded to the President a Japanese offer
to surrender to which was exactly what we accepted 7 months later. Had
it been accepted when first offered, there would have been no heavy loss
of life on Iwo Jima (over 26,033 Americans killed or wounded,
approximately 21,000 Japanese killed) and Okinawa (over 39,000 U.S. dead
and wounded, 109,000 Japanese dead), no fire bombing of Japanese cities
by B-29 bombers (it is estimated that the dropping of 1,700 tons of
incendiary explosives on Japanese cities during March 9th-10th alone
killed over 80,000 civilians and destroyed 260,000 buildings), and no
use of the atomic bomb (200,000 killed). **
*
5 April 1945 -* Japan appointed Prime Minister Suzuki Kantaro who was
known to be a peace advocate.

*8 May 1945 -* Japan tried to surrender through the Soviet Union.

*June 1945 - *Both the US Army and Navy recommended to Truman that he
clarify the US demands in regard to the Emperor. It was recognized that
he was absolutely essential so he could order his men to lay down their
arms. Without him, there would have been anarchy in Japan.

*11 July 1945 -* Japan offered to surrender unconditionally, with one
exception - they wished to retain their monarchy. They didn't insist on
retaining Emperor Hirohito. They were willing to replace him with his
small son, for example. The US wouldn't even talk to them - the bomb was
dropped on them without the US ever responding to any of their peace
feelers. Since we let them keep their monarchy (they never
unconditionally surrendered - the US offered assurances to the Emperor
on August 11 after both bombs were dropped, when they had the
assurances they surrendered), there was no difference between this
offer and what happened on August 14. Every death after July 11, both US
and Japanese, was a war crime committed by Harry Truman. In July, Japan
was totally helpless and was being shelled from sea and air. Japan had
been bombed back to the stone age. Its population was facing imminent
starvation. Much of the Japanese Army was stranded in China or scattered
across islands like the Philippines or New Britain.

The Japanese Navy had, capable of unaided movement, two aircraft
carriers (one damaged) with no planes, three damaged cruisers, 41
destroyers, most damaged to some degree, and 59 submarines. There were
829 vessels incapable of movement, some lying on the bottom in shallow
water, some floating upside down, some listing, others awash.


Here are a few of the Japanese attempts to end the war in July:

Quote
July 11: "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or
taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result
of the war; we hope to terminate the war".

July 12: "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".

Quote
July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to
communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to
dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal
letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" /(for
above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879). /

Quote
July 18:  "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good
offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for
negotiations with England and America." /(Magic-Diplomatic Summary,
7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457,
Box 18, National Archives). /

Quote
July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the
Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to
the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government." The July
21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the
Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in
preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (/Magic-Diplomatic
Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files,
RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).

Quote
July 26  Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting
Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese
Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good
offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war."
/(Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security
Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives). /

1945 Truman used atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, Hiroshima on
August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9. Now generally considered a war crime,
at the minimum it was the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent
civilians. There was no lack of military targets or a demonstration in a
remote place was possible, so the selection of targets is indefensible,
leaving aside the issue of whether the bombing was justified in the
first place. To make this decision Truman had to wave aside concerns
about post blast radiation, which was an unknown quantity at that time,
and even the possibility of an unstoppable chain reaction in the
atmosphere which would destroy the world. It was pointed out to him that
one bomb dropped on a city would have an effect undistinguishable from
and no greater than a big B-29 incendiary raid of the kind already in
progress, in terms of immediate casualties and total damage. In other
words, this was utterly senseless.


Whatever point Truman thought he was making was made with the first one.
Dropping the bomb to "end the war sooner" was a falsification of history
because Truman, in fact, lengthened the war in order to drop the bomb.
First he postponed the Potsdam Conference and thereby the Russian
declaration of war on Japan for two weeks until the bomb was ready and
then he had the language for assurances to the Emperor deleted so the
Potsdam Declaration would be unacceptable to the Japanese.

The US Strategic Bombing Survey explicitly stated that the war would
have ended sooner if they had chosen different targets – but the goal
was not to end the war but to support an invasion . As to the argument
that the bomb saved American lives - it is spurious to assert as fact
that obliterating Hiroshima in August was needed to obviate an invasion
in November - the date we had planned. The April 30, 1946 study by the
War Department's Military Intelligence Division concluded, "The war
would almost certainly have terminated when Russia entered the war
against Japan." This remains the only use of atomic weapons in anger.

Before the bomb was dropped, some scientists of the Manhattan Project
produced the Franck Report which questioned the ability of destroying
Japanese cities with atomic bombs to bring surrender when destroying
Japanese cities with conventional bombs had not done so. It recommended
a demonstration of the atomic bomb for Japan in an unpopulated area.

Facing the long-term consequences with Russia, the report stated
prophetically:

Quote
    "If no international agreement is concluded immediately after the
    first demonstration, this will mean a flying start of an unlimited
    armaments race."

The report pointed out that the United States, with its highly concentrated urban areas,
would become a prime target for nuclear weapons and concluded:
Quote
    "We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs
    for an early, unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the
    United States would be the first to release this new means of
    indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public
    support throughout the world, precipitate the race of armaments, and
    prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on
    the future control of such weapons."

Quote
When Eisenhower was told of the bomb he said: "...the Japanese were
ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful
thing." - Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Herbert Hoover
wrote to Army and Navy Journal, "The use of the atomic bomb, with its
indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded
in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to
Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives
would be accomplished.

"MacArthur said that was correct and that we would
have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia
into Manchuria."


The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to
study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946:

Quote
    "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by
    the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the
    Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all
    probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered
    even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had
    not entered  he war, and even if no invasion had been planned or
    contemplated."


But feel free to ignore the testimony of those who were there, who witnessed what happened, who had the actual intelligence. Let's not believe Eisenhower, Mac Arthur, the historical record of the various offers of surrender, or the USSBS. Let's believe MKing because the the Official Wisdom is Good For Business.

Squat down and squeeze out another opinion, like a good corporate servant and acolyte.

I haven't had this much fun beating a troll since my TBP days.

Evidence. Get you some.

Thanks for playing our game.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 09, 2013, 12:27:24 PM

You are nothing if not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Let me Translate that to Diner Lingo, RE style.  IMHO, Surly lacks enough Surliness.  :icon_mrgreen:

Socrates is a PUKE FACTORY.  The VOMIT coming off his keyboard will make you SICK.

I hope this makes it clear to the newbies.

RE

Fell free to check out my latest for surliness. And I haven't even brought out the fastball yet.
MKing is no Smokey.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 09, 2013, 06:52:38 PM

Quote
But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.

So drop some nukes on women, children and old people. That'll show 'em.

Fuck you, MKing.  :( I think you will use that same rational for drone strikes and the like, here in America. 'May the most rapacious bastard win.'  What do you suppose Socrates would have to say about that? Where is Plato's  dialogue on the virtue of annihilating civilian populations, or the virtue of empire at all costs?

Sit on the tip of an upright warhead, troll. See how it feels.

WHD
Title: WHD
Post by: agelbert on August 09, 2013, 07:49:48 PM
WHD,
If you want to have a little fun with MKing, ask him how he would do in the Prisoner's dilemma?

It should be most entertaining. Don't forget to ask him to answer what he would decide in 5 consecutive iterations of the Prisoner's Dilemma.  :icon_mrgreen:


Quote
The normal game is shown below:



                              Prisoner B stays silent (cooperates)        Prisoner B betrays (defects)


Prisoner A stays silent (cooperates) Each serves 1 year                Prisoner A: 3 years
                                                                                                         Prisoner B: goes free

Prisoner A betrays (defects) Prisoner A: goes free                       Each serves 2 years
                                         Prisoner B: 3 years


Here, regardless of what the other decides, each prisoner gets a higher pay-off by betraying the other ("defecting").

The reasoning involves an argument by dilemma:

B will either cooperate or defect.

If B cooperates, A should defect, since going free is better than serving 1 year.

If B defects, A should also defect, since serving 2 years is better than serving 3. So either way, A should defect. Parallel reasoning will show that B should defect.

In traditional game theory, some very restrictive assumptions on prisoner behaviour are made.

It is assumed that both understand the nature of the game, and that despite being members of the same gang, they have no loyalty to each other and will have no opportunity for retribution or reward outside the game.

Agelbert note: I.E. The prisoners are conscience FREE and quite RAPACIOUS! :evil4:

Most importantly, a very narrow interpretation of "rationality" is applied in defining the decision-making strategies of the prisoners.

Given these conditions and the payoffs above, prisoner A will betray prisoner B.

The game is symmetric, so Prisoner B should act the same way. Since both "rationally" decide to defect, each receives a lower reward than if both were to stay quiet.

Traditional game theory results in both players being worse off than if each chose to lessen the sentence of his accomplice at the cost of spending more time in jail himself.
[/color]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma)

According to OUR Government and the Rand Corporation "rationalist", cold blooded, dispassionate, 'winning is all that counts' view of what DEFINES a RATIONAL, SUCCESSFULLY COMPETITIVE HUMAN BEING (Wall Street and Freud agree!), the above behavior is A-OKAY. The prisoners are NOT EXPECTED TO BE ALTRUISTIC and therefore will always end up serving more time than if the both had blindly trusted the other.

 
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 09, 2013, 08:11:56 PM

Damn right there was causal correlation. Damn right September 2 was picked as the day, and by those who were THERE, on the side doing the surrendering, and it had nothing to do with the guilt ridden shoulda/woulda/coulda revisionist rewrite by the victors after the fact, who can only discuss what MIGHT have happened, versus what DID.

The thing I like about Socrates' posting is that he can accomplish what I never could, convincing Surly that the reintroduction of the Guillotine would be a good idea.  :icon_sunny:

Socrates appears at 2:05 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 09, 2013, 08:14:36 PM
There was an interesting competition done vis-a-vis the prisoner's dilemma.  They had different programs compete against each other repeatedly, and it knew the identity of the other program and the result.  The one that was most successful?  Tit-for-Tat.  It always cooperated with another program the first time it encountered it ("Do unto others....") and subsequently always made the choice that the other program had made previously ("Eye for an eye....").
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 09, 2013, 08:23:10 PM

Damn right there was causal correlation. Damn right September 2 was picked as the day, and by those who were THERE, on the side doing the surrendering, and it had nothing to do with the guilt ridden shoulda/woulda/coulda revisionist rewrite by the victors after the fact, who can only discuss what MIGHT have happened, versus what DID.

The thing I like about Socrates' posting is that he can accomplish what I never could, convincing Surly that the reintroduction of the Guillotine would be a good idea.  :icon_sunny:

Socrates appears at 2:05 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE

gross.  :P
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 09, 2013, 08:34:33 PM

gross.  :P

Gross is relative.

Below is REALLY GROSS.

(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/hiroshima_08_05/h29_19773763.jpg)

(http://japanfocus.org/data/hiroshima_survivors.png)

(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00319/3189035_hiroshima_319678c.jpg)

(http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/11/04/1226186/151857-111105-hiroshima.jpg)

(http://666moon.webs.com/Hiroshima_victim1.jpg)

(http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/u/U/hn10.gif)

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 09, 2013, 08:58:01 PM
Quote
There was an interesting competition done vis-a-vis the prisoner's dilemma.  They had different programs compete against each other repeatedly, and it knew the identity of the other program and the result.  The one that was most successful?  Tit-for-Tat.  It always cooperated with another program the first time it encountered it ("Do unto others....") and subsequently always made the choice that the other program had made previously ("Eye for an eye....").

What about real people playing it?

Our government doesn't think a rational being is anything but automatically selfish. I can understand the one prisoner that KNOWS the other guy is going to remain silent deciding to ALSO remain silent. But neither of them KNOW that. The game theory assumption is that an average human is quite prone to give the other THIS:


(http://www.virtualherbarium.org/images/A.titanum5-15-01CA.jpg)
Amorphophallus Titanium  :evil4:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 09, 2013, 08:58:43 PM
RE,

Touche'  :'(

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 09, 2013, 09:50:56 PM
What about real people playing it?

Our government doesn't think a rational being is anything but automatically selfish. I can understand the one prisoner that KNOWS the other guy is going to remain silent deciding to ALSO remain silent. But neither of them KNOW that. The game theory assumption is that an average human is quite prone to give the other THIS:
This is part of the reason people join gangs; it changes the payoff matrix.  If both prisoners are part of the same gang, now the guy who squeals no longer gets off; he either dies or has to go into the witness protection program.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 10, 2013, 06:10:46 AM
Quote
Thanks for the history Surley. And for proving my point. Nowhere in there does it say the Japanese were preparing for a September 2 surrender party, just maybe they would, maybe they could, some Americans figured they might.

But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.


Afraid of nothing, especially teabagger trolls. As you will see. Keep your left up.


Quote
You want to pretend Operation Ketsu-Go wasn't being dreamed up? Discussed? Of course you do, because you only want a perspective which verifies your preconceived notions. Sorry Surly1.

Not at all. Let's review the bidding on Ketsu-Go.

For those light on history, Ketsu-Go was the plan developed by the Japanese High Command to defend the Japanese mainland. Near the end of 1944, the Japanese high command took stock. They had lost a succession of naval battles, including losing the Mariana Islands and the Battle of the Philippine Sea, at a high cost of men and materiel not easily replaced. Japan's planners realized that the decisive battle was likely to be fought on Japan's main islands. They reasoned well and planned accordingly. Sources say that Japanese strategists predicted correctly that Americans would assault Iwo Jima and then Okinawa, where the Japanese hoped fierce resistance would force a negotiated peace. The Japanese also prepared for an invasion of Japan from Okinawa. American fighter planes' range indicated where the landing would be -- on the island of Kyushu, and from there on to Tokyo. The Japanese called this plan Ketsu-Go, which I am unable to translate, but which either seems to mean "conclusion" and/or "a bite on the ass."

Quote
Japan was finished as a warmaking nation, in spite of its four million men still under arms. But...Japan was not going to quit. Despite the fact that she was militarily finished, Japan's leaders were going to fight right on. To not lose "face" was more important than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives. And the people concurred, in silence, without protest. To continue was no longer a question of Japanese military thinking, it was an aspect of Japanese culture and psychology.

- James Jones, WWII

By spring 1945, the emperor had his doubts. In Japan, the emperor's role was to sanction and ratify the government's unanimous decisions. In spite of the fact that the emperor had ratified this plan twice, in June 1945, both the emperor and his chief adviser, Marquis Koichi Kido, began to seek a diplomatic solution, asking the Soviet Union to mediate an end to the war. The emperor and his war cabinet also were also obliged to face facts, including reports that doubted Japan's ability to continue the war. One report stressed the depletion of Japanese industry, food was short, and a low fall rice harvest could mean mass starvation, and local police were concerned about popular unrest. Other reports said the Imperial Navy was done and the Imperial Army in China depleted, and busy with resistance forces. A historian, Edward Drea, observed that "The extremity of their situation actually propels them to seek a decisive battle before their condition becomes so hapless, they can't even do that."

Two weeks later, on June 22, the emperor did something highly unusual. He opened a conference with his war cabinet by announcing he wanted to send a special envoy to Moscow. The war cabinet agreed for different reasons. The peace faction hoped it would lead to peace; The hard-liners hoped it would keep the Soviet Union from declaring war. They clearly didn't read Stalin very well.

On July 27,  Japan's government ignored an Allied ultimatum from Potsdam, warning of "prompt and utter destruction" unless it surrendered unconditionally, it was still waiting to hear back from Uncle Joe. The Japanese were in the initial phases of planning Ketsu-go, and it may have been unclear to them whether they could enact the preparation and training phases in time.

Does this add to the record and consider Ketsu-go in context?


Quote
The beauty of reality is that even a lopsided censorship of history and careful assembly of only those wishing/hoping/guiltily wanting something else pales into insignificance in the face of reality.
//
Next time try not to give away your natural bias by highlighting only things supporting your view, it comes across as less "true believer" if you at least try to head off the obvious riposte. Not that it matters in this case, but you could have least tried to fire off a synapse or two on your own.

Lopsided censorship? I certainly understand how evidence one as fully invested in the received wisdom and official dogma as you.

For my part, I rely on the testimony of those who were there, rather than the musings of internet trolls who know only what they have been taught to parrot. Even Gen. George Marshall, who agreed with Truman's decision, did so but said that it was a political rather than a military decision.I also note that the only "lives" that figure into your calculus are American lives. Yes, I know that in the throes of prosecuting a war, from the US those are the only lives that matter. Yet there are such things as unintended consequences to our decisions. I believe it to be disingenuous in the extreme to ignore the precedent set by the use of this weapon, especially when strong and respected voices within the administration were counseling otherwise. Use of Atomic weapons on Hiroshima and nagasaki has been debated since we dropped those bombs. I am willing to believe that by this opening Pandora's box, history will judge us harshly.

Let's now resume our regularly scheduled programming, where you shill for the energy extraction industries and otherwise serve Mammon with a posture of a bended knee, head tilted back, lips parted, ready to accept the Koch.
Title: Remember: The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Milit
Post by: RE on August 10, 2013, 07:57:48 PM

The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Military History (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hiroshima-myth-unaccountable-war-crimes-and-the-lies-of-us-military-history/5344436)

By Dr. Gary G. Kohls
Global Research, July 31, 2013
Region: Asia
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: Nuclear War


This coming Tuesday, August 6, 2013, is the 68th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima, the whole truth of which has been heavily censored and mythologized ever since war-weary Americans celebrated V-J Day 10 days later.

In the pitiful history lessons that were taught by my uninspired/bored history teachers (which seemed to be mostly jocks) came from patriotic and highly censored books where everything the British and US military ever did in war time was honorable and self-sacrificing and everything their opponents did was barbaric. Everybody in my graduating class of 26 swallowed the post-war propaganda in our history books. It was from these books that we learned about the “glorious” end of the war against Japan.

Of course, I now know that I had been given false information, orchestrated by war-justifying militarists (and assorted uber-patiotic historians) starting with General Douglas MacArthur. MacArthur successfully imposed total censorship of what really happened at Ground Zero. One of his first acts after taking over as viceroy of Japan was to confiscate and/or destroy all the photographic evidence documenting the horrors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 Back in 1995, the Smithsonian Institution was preparing to correct some the 50-year-old pseudo-patriotic myths by staging an honest, historically-accurate display dealing with the atomic bombings. Following the vehement, orchestrated, reactionary outrage emanating from right-wing veterans groups and other patriot groups (including Newt Gingrich’s GOP-dominated Congress that threatened to stop federal funding of the Institute), the Smithsonian was forced to censor-out all of the unwelcome but contextually important parts of the story. So again we had another example of politically-motivated groups heavily altering real history because they were afraid of revealing “unpatriotic” historical truths that might shake the confidence of average Americans in our leaders, sort of like the near-total media black-out about the controlled demolitions of the three World Trade Center buildings on 9/11/01 that killed thousands of innocent people and unleashed the dogs of war against innocents in Afghanistan (explore  www.ae911truth.org (http://www.ae911truth.org) for the  documentation of that assertion).

(http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/nagasaki2.jpg)
Nagasaki on August 9, 1945

The Smithsonian historians did have a gun to their heads, of course, but in the melee, the corporate-controlled mainstream media – and therefore the public – failed to learn an important historical point, and that is this: The war could have ended in the spring of 1945 without the summer atomic bombs, and therefore there might have been no Okinawa bloodbath for thousands of American Marines and soldiers. Also there would have been no need for an American land invasion of Japan – the basis of the subsequent propaganda campaign that justified the use of atomic weapons on defenseless civilian populations and meets the definition of an international war crime and a crime against humanity.

American intelligence, with the full knowledge of President Truman’s administration, was aware of Japan’s desperate search for ways to honorably surrender months before Truman gave the fateful order to incinerate Hiroshima.

 Intelligence data, revealed in the 1980s, showed that the contingency plans for a large-scale US invasion (planned for no sooner than November 1, 1945) would have been unnecessary. Japan was working on peace negotiations through its Moscow ambassador as early as April of 1945. Truman knew of these developments because the US had broken the Japanese code years earlier, and all of Japan’s military and diplomatic messages were being intercepted. On July 13, 1945, Foreign Minister Togo said: “Unconditional surrender (giving up all sovereignty, especially deposing the Emperor) is the only obstacle to peace.”

Truman and his advisors knew about these efforts, and the war could have ended through diplomacy by simply conceding a post-war figurehead position for the emperor Hirohito – who was regarded as a deity in Japan. That reasonable concession was – seemingly illogically – refused by the US in their demands for unconditional surrender, initially demanded at the 1943 Casablanca Conference between Roosevelt and Churchill and reiterated at the Potsdam Conference between Truman, Churchill and Stalin. Still, the Japanese continued searching for an honorable peace through negotiations.

 Even Secretary of War Henry Stimson, said: “the true question was not whether surrender could have been achieved without the use of the bomb but whether a different diplomatic and military course would have led to an earlier surrender. A large segment of the Japanese cabinet was ready in the spring of 1945 to accept substantially the same terms as those finally agreed on.” In other words, Stimson felt that the US had unnecessarily prolonged the war.

After Japan did surrender, MacArthur allowed the emperor to remain in place as spiritual head of Japan, the very condition that coerced the Japanese leadership to refuse to accept the humiliating “unconditional surrender” terms.

So the two essential questions that need answering to comprehend what was going on behind the scenes are these:

1) Why did the US refuse to accept Japan’s only demand concerning their surrender (the retention of the emperor) and

2) why were the atomic bombs used when victory in the Pacific was already a certainty?

 Shortly after WWII, military analyst Hanson Baldwin wrote:

    “The Japanese, in a military sense, were in a hopeless strategic situation by the time the Potsdam Declaration (insisting on Japan’s unconditional surrender) was made on July 26, 1945.”

Admiral William Leahy, top military aide to President Truman, said in his war memoirs, I Was There:

    “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons. My own feeling is that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”

And General Dwight D. Eisenhower, in a personal visit to President Truman a couple of weeks before the bombings, urged him not to use the atomic bombs. Eisenhower said  (in a 1963 interview in  Newsweek):

    “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime.”

There are a number of factors that contributed to the Truman administration’s decision to use the bombs.

1) The US had made a huge investment in time, mind and money (a massive 2 billion in 1940 dollars) to produce three bombs, and there was no inclination – and no guts – to stop the momentum.

2) The US military and political leadership – as did many ordinary Americans – had a tremendous appetite for revenge because of Pearl Harbor. Mercy wasn’t in the mindset of the US military or the war-weary populace, and the missions against Hiroshima and Nagasaki were accepted – no questions asked – by most of those folks who only knew the sanitized, national security version of events.

3) The fissionable material in Hiroshima’s bomb was uranium. The Nagasaki bomb was a plutonium bomb. Scientific curiosity was a significant factor that pushed the project to its completion. The Manhattan Project scientists (and the US Army director of the project, General Leslie Groves) were curious about “what would happen if an entire city was leveled by a single uranium bomb?” “What about a plutonium bomb?”

The decision to use both bombs had been made well in advance of August 1945. Accepting the surrender of Japan was not an option if the science experiment was to go ahead. Of course the three-day interval between the two bombs was unconscionably short if the Hiroshima bomb was designed to coerce immediate surrender. Japan’s communications and transportation capabilities were in shambles, and no one, not even the US military, much less the Japanese high command, fully understood what had happened at Hiroshima. (The Manhattan Project was so top secret that even Douglas MacArthur, commanding general of the entire Pacific theatre, had been kept out of the loop until five days before Hiroshima.)

4) The Russians had proclaimed their intent to enter the war with Japan 90 days after V-E Day (Victory in Europe Day, May 8), which would have been Aug. 8, two days after Hiroshima was bombed. Indeed, Russia did declare war on Japan on August 8 and was advancing eastward across Manchuria when Nagasaki was incinerated. The US didn’t want Japan surrendering to Russia or sharing the spoils of war.

Russia was soon to be the only other superpower – and a future enemy – so the first nuclear threat “messages” of the Cold War were sent. Russia indeed received far less of the spoils of war than they had anticipated, and the two superpowers were instantly mired in the Cold War stalemate that led to the unaffordable nuclear arms race and the possibility of total extinction of the human race. What did happen was the mutual moral and financial bankruptcies of both nations that occurred over the next couple of generations of military madness.

An estimated 80,000 innocent civilians, plus 20,000 weaponless young Japanese conscripts died instantly in the Hiroshima bombing. Hundreds of thousands more suffered slow deaths from agonizing burns, radiation sickness, leukemias, anemias and untreatable infections for the rest of their shortened lives. Generations of the survivor’s progeny were also afflicted with horrible radiation-induced illnesses, cancers and premature deaths, still going on to this very hour.

  Another shameful reality that has been covered up is the fact that 12 American Navy pilots, their existence well known to the US command, were instantly incinerated in the Hiroshima jail on the fateful day

So the official War Department-approved version of the end of the war in the Pacific contained a new batch of myths that took their places among the long lists of myths that Americans are continuously fed by our corporate, military, political and media opinion leaders, the gruesomeness of war being changed to glorification in the process. Among the other censored out realities include what really happened in the US military invasions and occupations of the countries of North Korea, Iran, Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Lebanon, Granada, Panama, the Philippines, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc. This list doesn’t cover the uncountable secret Pentagon/CIA covert operations and assassination plots in the rest of the world, where as many as150 nations contain American military bases (permission lavishly paid for by bribery or threats of economic sanctions).

But somehow most of us still hang on to our shaky “my country right or wrong” patriotism, desperately wanting to believe the cunningly-orchestrated myths that say that the war-profiteering multibillionaire corporate elite (and their politicians, military leaders and media talking heads who are in their employ) only work for peace, justice, equality, liberty and “making the world safe” for predatory capitalism.

While it is true that the US military has faced down the occasional despot, with necessary sacrifice from dead and mortally-wounded (in body, mind and spirit) American soldiers and veterans, more often than not the rationalization for going to war are the same as those of the “godless communists”, the anti-American “insurgents” and “freedom fighters” who want to convince us Yankees to just go home where we belong.

August 6 and 9, 1945 are just two more examples of the brain-washing that goes on in all “total war” political agendas, which are always accompanied by the inevitable human slaughter that is euphemistically labeled “collateral damage” or “friendly fire”.

It might already be too late to rescue and resuscitate the humanitarian, peacemaking America that we used to know and love. It might be too late to effectively confront the corporate hijacking of liberal democracy in America. It might be too late to successfully bring down the arrogant and greedy ruling elites who are selfishly dragging our world down the road to our destruction. The rolling coup d’etat of what I call Friendly American Fascism may have already accomplished its goals.

  But there may still be some hope. Rather than being silent about the wars that the war-mongers are provoking all over the planet (with the very willing assistance of the Pentagon, the weapons industry and their lapdogs in Congress), people of conscience need to start learning the whole truth of history, despite the discomfort we will feel (cognitive dissonance) when the truth can’t be ignored any more.

We need to start owning up to America’s uncountable war crimes that have been orchestrated in our names. And then we need to go to the streets, publicly protesting and courageously refusing to cooperate with those who are transforming America into a criminal rogue nation that will eventually be targeted for downfall by its billions of suffering victims outside our borders, similar to what happened to Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan.

Doing what is right for the whole of humanity for a change, rather than just doing what is profitable or advantageous for our over-privileged, over-consumptive and unsustainable American way of life, would be real honor, real patriotism and an essential start toward real peace.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 10, 2013, 08:34:58 PM
Quote
Quote from: WHD on August 09, 2013, 06:52:38 PM


    Quote
MKing:
        But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.

WHD:
    So drop some nukes on women, children and old people. That'll show 'em.

MKing:
Pretty much.

'Nuff said, there.


Quote
    Fuck you, MKing.  :( I think you will use that same rational for drone strikes and the like, here in America. 'May the most rapacious bastard win.'

MKing:
Oh goodness me, more than a decade in day to day drilling and operations of the oilfield and I have never heard such language! What are you, 12?

Actually, I'm 40, and anytime you want to have a dancing contest, or a singing contest, or a baseball throwing contest, or a hockey skating contest, or a house building contest, or a food growing contest, or a swearing contest, or a sword fighting contest (we'll use wood swords so I don't kill you), or even bowling, I'm game.  ;D

Did you work with churchboys? I hear a bulk of them are meth addicts at this point.  :exp-evil:


Quote
I am not aware of what Socrates might think on the topic of thinking that a military exists

Oh, I know it's out of context, but it's so choice! LOL

Quote
As far as annihilating civilian populations, it is convenient how your wrath appears only pointed at the Americans, versus say the Japanese at Nanking, the Romans and Carthage, and the hundreds of other examples of how the real world works across geography, culture and time.

Well, I am an American, not Japanese or Roman or Carthaginian. What'r u?

Quote
It is called WAR for a reason. Bad things happen during wars. All wars. Bad things are part and parcel of war. And WWII wasn't trying to sustain an empire for the US, you  do know that, right? You can equate a different kind of warfare, unmanned drones, undoubtedly with a complex and near incoherent convolution of random facts and speculation, with the fading days of an American Empire if you ignore the fact that America isn't an empire, and disproves those who want to claim it is one every time they take over a country and then have the audacity to hand it back to its rightful owners, but that angle doesn't tend to hold together very well either.

Better fits the definition of economic hegemony I suppose. Empire doesn't work.

Since you seem to love war so much then, does that make you a bad person? LOL So do you suppose any empire isn't going to pursue, achieve and attempt to maintain economic hegemony? Does an empire depose democratically elected heads of non-client states, replacing as head of new client state, puppet strong man? Or is that an economic hegemon? Wait?  :icon_scratch:

Like I said before, and I think anyone can figure out, you don't have any difficulty justifying dropping bombs on kids, babies, etc. Troll.

WHD









Title: Re: Remember: The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Milit
Post by: Surly1 on August 11, 2013, 04:09:34 AM

The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Military History (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hiroshima-myth-unaccountable-war-crimes-and-the-lies-of-us-military-history/5344436)

By Dr. Gary G. Kohls
Global Research, July 31, 2013
Region: Asia
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: Nuclear War
Russia indeed received far less of the spoils of war than they had anticipated, and the two superpowers were instantly mired in the Cold War stalemate that led to the unaffordable nuclear arms race and the possibility of total extinction of the human race. What did happen was the mutual moral and financial bankruptcies of both nations that occurred over the next couple of generations of military madness.

An estimated 80,000 innocent civilians, plus 20,000 weaponless young Japanese conscripts died instantly in the Hiroshima bombing. Hundreds of thousands more suffered slow deaths from agonizing burns, radiation sickness, leukemias, anemias and untreatable infections for the rest of their shortened lives. Generations of the survivor’s progeny were also afflicted with horrible radiation-induced illnesses, cancers and premature deaths, still going on to this very hour.

  Another shameful reality that has been covered up is the fact that 12 American Navy pilots, their existence well known to the US command, were instantly incinerated in the Hiroshima jail on the fateful day

So the official War Department-approved version of the end of the war in the Pacific contained a new batch of myths that took their places among the long lists of myths that Americans are continuously fed by our corporate, military, political and media opinion leaders, the gruesomeness of war being changed to glorification in the process. Among the other censored out realities include what really happened in the US military invasions and occupations of the countries of North Korea, Iran, Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Lebanon, Granada, Panama, the Philippines, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc. This list doesn’t cover the uncountable secret Pentagon/CIA covert operations and assassination plots in the rest of the world, where as many as150 nations contain American military bases (permission lavishly paid for by bribery or threats of economic sanctions).

But somehow most of us still hang on to our shaky “my country right or wrong” patriotism, desperately wanting to believe the cunningly-orchestrated myths that say that the war-profiteering multibillionaire corporate elite (and their politicians, military leaders and media talking heads who are in their employ) only work for peace, justice, equality, liberty and “making the world safe” for predatory capitalism.

While it is true that the US military has faced down the occasional despot, with necessary sacrifice from dead and mortally-wounded (in body, mind and spirit) American soldiers and veterans, more often than not the rationalization for going to war are the same as those of the “godless communists”, the anti-American “insurgents” and “freedom fighters” who want to convince us Yankees to just go home where we belong.

August 6 and 9, 1945 are just two more examples of the brain-washing that goes on in all “total war” political agendas, which are always accompanied by the inevitable human slaughter that is euphemistically labeled “collateral damage” or “friendly fire”.

It might already be too late to rescue and resuscitate the humanitarian, peacemaking America that we used to know and love. It might be too late to effectively confront the corporate hijacking of liberal democracy in America. It might be too late to successfully bring down the arrogant and greedy ruling elites who are selfishly dragging our world down the road to our destruction. The rolling coup d’etat of what I call Friendly American Fascism may have already accomplished its goals.

Terrific article, RE. Hadn't seen it.
Really encapsulates the consequences, intended or otherwise, of that decision.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 11, 2013, 08:30:00 AM
Quote
I defend nothing but reality Surly1.

Far as I can tell, you have done nothing here but defend as a means to perpetuate the "reality" of the killing of women, children and old people, and the rape of the planet.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 11, 2013, 09:40:51 AM
Far as I can tell, you have done nothing here but defend as a means to perpetuate the "reality" of the killing of women, children and old people, and the rape of the planet.

If you really mean that, then thank you for providing a real world example of why some people have only their labor to sell.

Thank you, MKing, for providing for us a real world example of one who is willing to sell his soul.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 11, 2013, 10:25:28 AM

I defend nothing but reality Surly1.

You don't defend reality at all.  You live in Socrates la-la land, where the big worry is when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen.  You write science fiction about escaping to other galaxies in Dyson Spheres.  You are willfully ignorant about history, and your interpretation of the world is as self-centered as a 2 year old.  Far as I can tell, there isn't a single Diner who doesn't find you to be utterly repulsive and a pathetic example of the species Homo Sapiens.  You are the group punching bag, a fabulous target to Napalm because nobody at all cares if you got insulted enough to leave.  Perhaps you get some sort of masochistic catharsis from this, otherwise unless you are being paid to hang out here and puke out nonsense its hard to imagine why you keep coming back for more.  Perhaps it is because no other board can stand the stink of having you around and the Diner is the only place you aren't banned.

Have a nice day.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
You are the group punching bag, a fabulous target to Napalm because nobody at all cares if you got insulted enough to leave.
Hey, I'd miss him.  It's nice having someone around who make me look sane.  Believe me, THAT'S NOT EASY.  Of course, I wouldn't miss him enough to make me be nice to him, but as long as he's willing to take it....
(http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/db_articles/1d7d8ed5533b7ef32d0bbe80d90511b38c9bc7f9.jpg)
Quote
Perhaps it is because no other board can stand the stink of having you around and the Diner is the only place you aren't banned.
I think you nailed it there.  He does seem to be careful enough about what he posts to not get sent to the Dungeon.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:41 AM
You are the group punching bag, a fabulous target to Napalm because nobody at all cares if you got insulted enough to leave.
Hey, I'd miss him.  It's nice having someone around who make me look sane.  Believe me, THAT'S NOT EASY.  Of course, I wouldn't miss him enough to make me be nice to him, but as long as he's willing to take it....
(http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/db_articles/1d7d8ed5533b7ef32d0bbe80d90511b38c9bc7f9.jpg)
Quote
Perhaps it is because no other board can stand the stink of having you around and the Diner is the only place you aren't banned.
I think you nailed it there.  He does seem to be careful enough about what he posts to not get sent to the Dungeon.

Ah, leave him be.

MKing lives and is comfortable in Alt-world, where Faux News reports and rushbo decides. He likes it there. As I said as he atempted to redirect,
"Often wrong but never in doubt."

Besides, it's been a while since somebody roused me from my Facebook torpor. I needed the exercise.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 11, 2013, 11:41:46 AM
Besides, it's been a while since somebody roused me from my Facebook torpor. I needed the exercise.

You should try Tweeting!  It's FUN!  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 11, 2013, 01:01:01 PM

I defend nothing but reality Surly1.

You don't defend reality at all.  You live in Socrates la-la land, where the big worry is when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen.  You write science fiction about escaping to other galaxies in Dyson Spheres.  You are willfully ignorant about history, and your interpretation of the world is as self-centered as a 2 year old.  Far as I can tell, there isn't a single Diner who doesn't find you to be utterly repulsive and a pathetic example of the species Homo Sapiens.  You are the group punching bag, a fabulous target to Napalm because nobody at all cares if you got insulted enough to leave.  Perhaps you get some sort of masochistic catharsis from this, otherwise unless you are being paid to hang out here and puke out nonsense its hard to imagine why you keep coming back for more.  Perhaps it is because no other board can stand the stink of having you around and the Diner is the only place you aren't banned.

Have a nice day.

RE

I for one find it difficult to be that harsh on  a fellow Diner,  however irritating or out of the norm his views appear.

Having said that, it is incredible to me that anyone could take an opposing view of Surly's powerful article on a shameful tragic pair of incidents which could have been obviously prevented or carried out in a different  way that showed a reverence for the lives of innocent humans.

MKing, I understand your view that the military will do what the military does; kill and kill well.  This heinous deed however was ordered by the elected official of the United States; who was also supposed to act on moral, as well as military principals, when performing this act in the name of the American people. It was a miserable failure and disgrace on the moral end, an act that makes a mockery of all the good we try to do, including the rebuilding of that nation.

You make some valid points MKing, but I entreat you to re think your position on this particular matter.

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 11, 2013, 01:32:14 PM
Quote
I think you nailed it there.  He does seem to be careful enough about what he posts to not get sent to the Dungeon.

Not a place I like to hear even mentioned casually JD. 

It is a despicable place in the cellar of the Diner that should never have been built in my opinion. The Diner was a much better, open and free establishment; Unique and without competition anywhere on the net before it's creation. Still a place where on can speak quite freely, but not totally free since it's inception and therein lies the rub. "If I say this will there be screams to send me to the Dungeon?"

I was soundly trounced by my fellow Diners in my opposition to its creation, and respect and live with their decision; but I just hate the place and what it stands for. Thank goodness it has had so few inmates and I am most hopeful that it remains that way.

Just a personal rant JD, and I hope you don't view it as pertaining to you. It just sets off alarm bells in my head when I hear it mentioned as a way to deal with one of our members with a minority or upsetting to many view of a matter.


Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 11, 2013, 01:34:36 PM

I for one find it difficult to be that harsh on  a fellow Diner,  however irritating or out of the norm his views appear.


It takes a lot to tick me off enough to bring on Nolan Ryan RE and throw SMOKE that hard.  Socrates crossed that line defending the Nuking of Hiroshima.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 11, 2013, 01:55:07 PM

I for one find it difficult to be that harsh on  a fellow Diner,  however irritating or out of the norm his views appear.


It takes a lot to tick me off enough to bring on Nolan Ryan RE and throw SMOKE that hard.  Socrates crossed that line defending the Nuking of Hiroshima.

RE

I understand fully RE, and got the same very bad vibe myself. 
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 11, 2013, 06:06:29 PM

The bomb ended the war.

The War was already over.  The Japanese were stuck holed up on their own islands.  All that was necessary at that point in the war was to simply embargo the islands.  You didn't need to invade at all.  They would have capitulated in a year most with trade embargoed.

Dropping the Bomb was a demonstration of POWER to the Soviets, and besides that after all that money and time spent developing it, they wanted to see it WORK in ACTION.  The Japanese had been utterly dehumanized by this point in the Propaganda War, and no American in 1945 really gave a shit if Japanese Women and Children were incinerated.  Does this mean the Japs were Nice Guys during the War?  Of course not, but it is still barbaric to take out the agression on a Civilian population, and moreover to do it with a weapon so destructive to the environment as well as people.  It was wholly unnecessary, all the evidence from historical documents show that.  You merely parrot an ideological spin of the War Monger that you are.  You disgust me.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 12, 2013, 08:19:53 PM

But of course I do. The same feelings which drove you to the end of the road, and the intellectual construct you assembled to justify it, would indicate that all manner of things related to the modern world and how it works must disgust you.
 

Absolutely.  You are the anthropomorphic representation of just about everything wrong with the world.  It is people like you who turned the planet into a sewer, people who stink of greed and care only about themselves.  It is unfortunate for the world that you were ever born, and the world will be an immeasurably better place when you are gone.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 12, 2013, 11:15:08 PM
Quote
I think you nailed it there.  He does seem to be careful enough about what he posts to not get sent to the Dungeon.

Not a place I like to hear even mentioned casually JD. 

It is a despicable place in the cellar of the Diner that should never have been built in my opinion. The Diner was a much better, open and free establishment; Unique and without competition anywhere on the net before it's creation. Still a place where on can speak quite freely, but not totally free since it's inception and therein lies the rub. "If I say this will there be screams to send me to the Dungeon?"

I was soundly trounced by my fellow Diners in my opposition to its creation, and respect and live with their decision; but I just hate the place and what it stands for. Thank goodness it has had so few inmates and I am most hopeful that it remains that way.

Just a personal rant JD, and I hope you don't view it as pertaining to you. It just sets off alarm bells in my head when I hear it mentioned as a way to deal with one of our members with a minority or upsetting to many view of a matter.

GO

Speaking of Remember! Good call. I didn't trounce on you, did I? I hope not. Why did we do that? Oh right, the widowmaker, or whoever that was. LOL He's the only one, right? Is he still there?  :)

I don't think we should send MKing there, though, even if I think he would drop a nuclear bomb on Minnesota if he thought we were a treat to wherever he lives. Besides, who needs a strawman to kick the shit out of, when MKing is here trying to condition people to the rightness of the nuclear incinerating of people.

WHD

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 12, 2013, 11:38:02 PM

Speaking of Remember! Good call. I didn't trounce on you, did I? I hope not. Why did we do that? Oh right, the widowmaker, or whoever that was. LOL He's the only one, right? Is he still there?  :)


F-Bomb remains in the Dungeon, as its only resident.  He remains free however at any time to post up, and if he is even semi-normal, he'll be reinstated as a regular member.

Thing about F-Bomb was his Napalm was NON-STOP, and the most visceral in nature trying to provoke other board members.  He got warned innumerable times to tone it down some.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg/220px-RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg)
I never deleted any of his posts, and I never banned him.  Neither though could I let him destroy the board, which he was dead set on doing.  I had no choice other than to sequester him, and once I did that, he finally gave up trying.  He tried every trick in the Troll Handbook to use my No Ban/No Censorship policy against me, but I simply wouldn't capitulate to that, and took what SMF provides, great Admin Tools to put a lid on him.  He could not compete with that.  In the end, Admin always wins.

Socrates does not have the same attitude as F-Bomb.  He has an agenda he wants to promote, but that agenda is not to destroy the board.  So I have no plans of sending him to the Dungeon at the moment.  He is a fabulous target to Napalm, he sets himself up for it.  He makes no convincing arguments, he is just the Group Fool.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 13, 2013, 12:01:27 AM
Actually, I'm more like the group Fool, LOL, if you know anything about the Tarot.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg/220px-RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg)

MKing is more like the Ten of Wands

(http://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/thoth/wands-10.jpg)

"The whole picture suggests oppression and repression. It is a stupid and obstinate cruelty from which there is no escape. It is Will which has not understood anything beyond it's own dull purpose, it's 'lust of result', and will devour itself in the conflagrations it has evoked."

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 13, 2013, 05:47:50 PM

But of course I do. The same feelings which drove you to the end of the road, and the intellectual construct you assembled to justify it, would indicate that all manner of things related to the modern world and how it works must disgust you.
 

Absolutely.  You are the anthropomorphic representation of just about everything wrong with the world.

Well, I'm glad you have found a place away from all us fair, even tempered, objective and critical thinking types.  ;D

Quote from: RE
It is people like you who turned the planet into a sewer, people who stink of greed and care only about themselves. 

Oh please, like teachers churning out children taught to be parrots and truck drivers weren't part of the mix as well. You hiding doesn't negate your participation in the process, it only changes your participation in the process at a given moment, what with the number of doomer forums imploding and consolidating over the past few years it isn't like you can't run right back to BAU and treat this phase of your life like you have the others.

How many religious conversions can someone go through before it is reasonable to call them a hypocrite?

Quote from: RE
It is unfortunate for the world that you were ever born, and the world will be an immeasurably better place when you are gone.
RE

We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.
// M King: Thank you for bringing some sanity and rationality to the discussion. As one of the most unpopular posters on this bandwagon of hypocrisy { usually my posts have to be hidden from the normal peruser}, I would like to thank you for calling RE on his SHIT. And SHIT it is, as he has shown himself to be as avaricious and greedy, lying and hypocritical as any other polecat coming down the pike, always pointing the finger at others, ready to condemn at a moments notice and never admitting to the mote in his own eye. Neither do any in his merry band of followers either. They, of course, mostly being commies, could never admit to any participation in collective guilt whatsoever. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 13, 2013, 06:10:19 PM
We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.

Some people are more GUILTY than others.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 13, 2013, 06:14:41 PM
We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.

Some people are more GUILTY than others.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE
//Very feeble retort. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 13, 2013, 06:15:20 PM
M King: Thank you for bringing some sanity and rationality to the discussion.

KK (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-love010.gif) Socrates.

A match made in Heaven.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 13, 2013, 06:17:27 PM
We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.

Some people are more GUILTY than others.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE

That's what the left always says about their shit, that it doesn't stink like the other guy's.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 13, 2013, 06:20:18 PM

(http://www.fimfiction-static.net/images/story_images/121597.jpg?1375340567)
Quote
Some people are more GUILTY than others.
YEP!  :evil4:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 13, 2013, 06:23:03 PM
We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.

Some people are more GUILTY than others.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage

RE

That's what the left always says about their shit, that it doesn't stink like the other guy's.
// That is so true. Truer than RE can comprehend. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: JoeP on August 13, 2013, 06:48:00 PM

Seems the recent conversation here may have split off a new commie/lefty/righty-righty thread.  Or am I just speculating?   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 13, 2013, 06:51:15 PM

Seems the recent conversation here may have split off a new commie/lefty/righty-righty thread.  Or am I just speculating?   :icon_mrgreen:

You haven't been paying attention JoeP. This place has ALWAYS been a Commie Lefty thread.  Rights are trolls and enemies of the status quo around here. No thread for them.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 13, 2013, 06:53:04 PM

Seems the recent conversation here may have split off a new commie/lefty/righty-righty thread.  Or am I just speculating?   :icon_mrgreen:
  Well DUUUUUHH Now. GEE, I'm sooooo bored!
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 13, 2013, 06:55:10 PM

Seems the recent conversation here may have split off a new commie/lefty/righty-righty thread.  Or am I just speculating?   :icon_mrgreen:
// Helloooo. Is anybody home?
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 13, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
Quote
// M King: Thank you for bringing some sanity and rationality to the discussion. As one of the most unpopular posters on this bandwagon of hypocrisy { usually my posts have to be hidden from the normal peruser}, I would like to thank you for calling RE on his SHIT. And SHIT it is, as he has shown himself to be as avaricious and greedy, lying and hypocritical as any other polecat coming down the pike, always pointing the finger at others, ready to condemn at a moments notice and never admitting to the mote in his own eye. Neither do any in his merry band of followers either. They, of course, mostly being commies, could never admit to any participation in collective guilt whatsoever. Karpatok

So I come home after my job, super down because I made the mistake of reading the local paper, about millionaires and billionaires, and how "economists have been predicting a housing recover in 2013 for a long time, and turns out they were dead right," etc etc etc, contemplating a growing pile of petty disappointments, and this is the first thing I read?

Here is a riddle for you. If your elite capitalists are pigs, and elite commies are pigs, who is left, or right?

Go piss in your own drink.  :-*

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 13, 2013, 10:57:54 PM
We all got it coming RE, it ain't like you put your pants on any different than those you so despise.
// M King: Thank you for bringing some sanity and rationality to the discussion. As one of the most unpopular posters on this bandwagon of hypocrisy { usually my posts have to be hidden from the normal peruser}, I would like to thank you for calling RE on his SHIT. And SHIT it is, as he has shown himself to be as avaricious and greedy, lying and hypocritical as any other polecat coming down the pike, always pointing the finger at others, ready to condemn at a moments notice and never admitting to the mote in his own eye. Neither do any in his merry band of followers either. They, of course, mostly being commies, could never admit to any participation in collective guilt whatsoever. Karpatok

Well, I can't say I have quite the feelings you do for RE, while he certainly appears misguided, judgmental and psychologically damaged in some unknown way, that doesn't make him any better or worse than any other member of n interesting group, be they Rapturists, peak oilers, McDoomsters, bums, 1%'ers, or the French.

A splash of grandiose personality adds color to nearly any cocktail party conversation, forum, bar story or the myriad of other places people meet and engage in interesting conversation.

MKing,

Funny, you use the image of Socrates, but you are really a Sophist, which Socrates despised. What else are you being disingenuous about?

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 13, 2013, 11:07:00 PM

Funny, you use the image of Socrates, but you are really a Sophist, which Socrates despised. What else are you being disingenuous about?


Actually, I dropped that Socrates Avatar onto Socrates' account here, he just elected not to change it.  :icon_mrgreen:  I dropped it on after he made the claim that his sort of argument of answering Questions with Questions was Socratic dialogue.  I found it funny to pop that avatar on, though I think he takes it seriously.  He can always change it though.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 13, 2013, 11:29:01 PM

Funny, you use the image of Socrates, but you are really a Sophist, which Socrates despised. What else are you being disingenuous about?


Actually, I dropped that Socrates Avatar onto Socrates' account here, he just elected not to change it.  :icon_mrgreen:  I dropped it on after he made the claim that his sort of argument of answering Questions with Questions was Socratic dialogue.  I found it funny to pop that avatar on, though I think he takes it seriously.  He can always change it though.

RE

No wonder it looks like Socrates after a few morning beers after a night in an Athenian brothel. LOL

WHD
Title: Sour Grapes from the Minority Viewpoint on the Diner
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 03:15:04 AM
Rights are trolls and enemies of the status quo around here. No thread for them.

EXCUSE ME!

Do you not have your OWN Newz Channel?  Do you not have your OWN Gold Bug thread here? Are you not on the MOD SQUAD here?

The fact I can muster up a bigger army of Trolls to knock down your threads than you can to knock down mine is YOUR problem, not MY problem.

Have I EVER stopped you from promoting your agenda?  Have I EVER deleted any of your posts?  Have I EVER prevented you from Napalming me?  NEVER!

I'm just BETTER at it than you are GO, and besides THAT, I am...wait for it...

ADMIN.  POWER OF GOD ON A FORUM.

 :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 14, 2013, 03:20:30 AM

Seems the recent conversation here may have split off a new commie/lefty/righty-righty thread.  Or am I just speculating?   :icon_mrgreen:

You haven't been paying attention JoeP. This place has ALWAYS been a Commie Lefty thread.  Rights are trolls and enemies of the status quo around here. No thread for them.

When you are a right winger, everything short of a corporate boot on the neck looks like Socialism.

Right wing victims have to console themselves with the markets, the economy the government, Fox News, Rushbo, Clear channel, every media entity owned by the six corporations who control speech, the Supreme Court, Breitbart and The Blaze.

Yeah, no thread for them.

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 03:48:51 AM

Quote
EXCUSE ME!

Do you not have your OWN Newz Channel?  Do you not have your OWN Gold Bug thread here? Are you not on the MOD SQUAD here?

The fact I can muster up a bigger army of Trolls to knock down your threads than you can to knock down mine is YOUR problem, not MY problem.

Have I EVER stopped you from promoting your agenda?  Have I EVER deleted any of your posts?  Have I EVER prevented you from Napalming me?  NEVER!

I'm just BETTER at it than you are GO, and besides THAT, I am...wait for it...




What does a Gold & silver thread, a Newz Channel, and being a member of the mod squad have to do with the right having a thread on the diner?

What makes you think I am on the right, the fact that I am a Libertarian?

Have you ever heard of a member of the right that.

Adores Jimmy Carter, Robert Reich, and Ralph Nader.?

That hates fucking Bankster's with a passion?

Whose current most admired blogster is James Howard Kunstler?

That had hoped for much more success from OWS?

That thinks the debt credit economy of today is the work of Satan?

Who thinks the executives of Monsanto should have their nuts chopped off for what they have done to our sacred agriculture.

Who is a peak oiler?

Who thinks Bush and Cheney suck as well as the current crew?

Who is repulsed by the monetization of the diner.

Perhaps like some of the other hate filled lefty's around here, you have taken my fun inspired character of Auric Goldfinger to be a real person?

Read for comprehension Dear Dungeon Master.

                                                             
Read for Comprehension DM
Read for Comprehension DM
     :laugh:

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 04:02:20 AM
Good Grief man, you VOTED FOR NIXON!  You don't get any further RIGHT than that.  LOL
(http://knoji.com/images/user/nixonpinpeaceprosperity.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 04:16:29 AM
Good Grief man, you VOTED FOR NIXON!  You don't get any further RIGHT than that.  LOL
(http://knoji.com/images/user/nixonpinpeaceprosperity.jpg)

RE

That one is getting as old and ridiculous as your "Money is The Root of All Evil" line, and how it must be banned. Except for Good Lefty's like you that is who will put it to good use of course. Just as your shit doesn't stink, money in your hands is Good.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 04:27:11 AM

That one is getting as old and ridiculous as your "Money is The Root of All Evil" line, and how it must be banned. Except for Good Lefty's like you that is who will put it to good use of course. Just as your shit doesn't stink, money in your hands is Good.

Old but true.  Besides which, you persistently get on those of us who believe in and promote Tribal principals as Communists and Lefties, and rev up the righty rhetoric against the social welfare state as well.  You are clearly a Conservatard GO, it is why you do not buy the ideas of the SUN  :icon_sunny: Project and always post negatively when we discuss those ideas. You are very negative about anything communal in nature, you are a classic right winger in all respects.  It infuses everything you write.  Just cop to it for crying out loud.  It is obvious you think "lefties" are idiots, you do not like "liberals", elsewise you would not take me to task for being one.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  End of Story.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 04:38:55 AM

That one is getting as old and ridiculous as your "Money is The Root of All Evil" line, and how it must be banned. Except for Good Lefty's like you that is who will put it to good use of course. Just as your shit doesn't stink, money in your hands is Good.

Old but true.  Besides which, you persistently get on those of us who believe in and promote Tribal principals as Communists and Lefties, and rev up the righty rhetoric against the social welfare state as well.  You are clearly a Conservatard GO, it is why you do not buy the ideas of the SUN  :icon_sunny: Project and always post negatively when we discuss those ideas. You are very negative about anything communal in nature, you are a classic right winger in all respects.  It infuses everything you write.  Just cop to it for crying out loud.  It is obvious you think "lefties" are idiots, you do not like "liberals", elsewise you would not take me to task for being one.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  End of Story.

RE

Read for comprehension, stay on topic, and do not assume things about people.

"Assumption is the Mother of all Fuck Ups"    (Famous Army Quote)    :exp-grin: :exp-grin:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 04:42:29 AM
I make no assumptions here. I only analyze what you write.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  Cop to it.  Show some integrity here man.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 04:52:50 AM
I make no assumptions here. I only analyze what you write.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  Cop to it.  Show some integrity here man.

RE

I am a Libertarian currently who will vote or support anyone, or the member of any political party, who in my opinion is a just honest person with an agenda to do good.  People don't all fit into neat little slots the media and politicians try and place us in RE.  We are all very different and cannot be placed into neat little bins with labels on them.

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 05:42:54 AM
I make no assumptions here. I only analyze what you write.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  Cop to it.  Show some integrity here man.

RE

Okay, I'm about ready to die laughing here. RE telling someone else to show integrity, holy crap that is the funniest thing I've ever seen you write RE.... :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Our savior can be quite funny at times. Actually I find myself breaking out in bouts of intense belly holding laughter at most of what he says. He does however have the Power of God as he often kindly reminds us, so please, let us not laugh too loudly at his Benevolence.   :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 14, 2013, 06:05:19 AM
I make no assumptions here. I only analyze what you write.  You are a CONSERVATARD.  Cop to it.  Show some integrity here man.

RE

Okay, I'm about ready to die laughing here. RE telling someone else to show integrity, holy crap that is the funniest thing I've ever seen you write RE.... :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

This, from Dickless?

MKing, you are advised to handle the word "integrity" with tongs.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Snowleopard on August 14, 2013, 06:47:19 AM
Let us divide the peons into "teams".  Say Red vs Blue,  Blue vs Gray, White vs Black, Black vs Brown.  Doesn't matter, any two colors, races, ideologies, religions, etc. will do.  The more infighting the better.  Then, while they are fighting each other, we can pick their pockets and incite them to blame the losses on each other. 

Good bankster program eh?  Kinda sad to see it running here.  :(
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Eddie on August 14, 2013, 08:17:32 AM
I find plenty to be disgusted about with regards to both the liberal and conservative camps in this country.

I'm probably closer to GO politically than most here, although I'd vote for the ghost of Karl Marx if I thought he could turn this ship around and keep it from sailing off the edge of the earth. I find these finger-pointing arguments to be pretty much irrelevant in light of the reality of the dire situation we ALL face.

No ignorant-ass conservative is going to fix anything.

The American Left got its balls cut off about 1948. There really is no Left left, if you will.

All political parties and ideologies have been and will be co-opted by our corporate masters, who will repackage them and use them to control us.

Plant a fucking garden and wire up those solar panels. You'll be on your own soon.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 08:28:08 AM
I find plenty to be disgusted about with regards to both the liberal and conservative camps in this country.

I'm probably closer to GO politically than most here, although I'd vote for the ghost of Karl Marx if I thought he could turn this ship around and keep it from sailing off the edge of the earth. I find these finger-pointing arguments to be pretty much irrelevant in light of the reality of the dire situation we ALL face.

No ignorant-ass conservative is going to fix anything.

The American Left got its balls cut off about 1948. There really is no Left left, if you will.

All political parties and ideologies have been and will be co-opted by our corporate masters, who will repackage them and use them to control us.

Plant a fucking garden and wire up those solar panels. You'll be on your own soon.

I hear you Doc, looks like you don't fit into one of the convenient slots TPTB wish to place us into either.  :emthup: :emthup:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 08:37:07 AM
He does however have the Power of God as he often kindly reminds us, so please, let us not laugh too loudly at his Benevolence.   :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:

"Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand."

Mark Twain.

Maybe I can earn a new avatar from our benevolent lord and savior?

 :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:

 How about "THE BRAIN"  MKing, just a suggestion.  :exp-grin: :exp-grin:

                                                           
THE BRAIN
THE BRAIN

                                                               
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 14, 2013, 09:12:07 AM
I'm probably closer to GO politically than most here, although I'd vote for the ghost of Karl Marx if I thought he could turn this ship around and keep it from sailing off the edge of the earth. I find these finger-pointing arguments to be pretty much irrelevant in light of the reality of the dire situation we ALL face.
I think you'd find Karl Marx proudly forging ahead and sailing off the edge of the earth....

I wonder how many people have actually read Das Capital (http://archive.org/download/KarlMarxDasKapitalpdf/KAPITAL1.pdf) (or even looked at a summarized version (http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/marx/section3.rhtml) as I have).  He basically predicted the current crisis we're in.  What he didn't foresee, which helped forestall it for well over a century: Taylorism, or time-and-efficiency studies, which helped raise the productivity of workers many fold; the success of Socialism and Communism, which slowed the growth of Capitalism; and the development of retirement funds, whereby workers in fact did own most of the companies they worked for.  But productivity had diminishing returns, Communism fell, and the 401(k) was invented, and we got back on track to the Crisis of Capitalism.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 14, 2013, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: MKing
Maybe I can earn a new avatar from our benevolent lord and savior?
How about "THE BRAIN"  MKing, just a suggestion.  :exp-grin: :exp-grin:
Ooooh.... I wanna play!!!!
Here's my suggestions:

(http://michaelsfishbowl.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/simon-bar-sinister.jpg?w=600)
(http://autismdragons.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/megamind4.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/kiddykawk/brain.jpg)
(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/508e7e50ecad048b22000029-960/dr-evil.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wn1y_lrYrQI/UTpvbn7ymrI/AAAAAAAABlU/Ue-gHMZ3IIU/s320/StewiesGeneric_2010_R3F.jpg)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 09:34:39 AM
Quote from: MKing
Maybe I can earn a new avatar from our benevolent lord and savior?
How about "THE BRAIN"  MKing, just a suggestion.  :exp-grin: :exp-grin:
Ooooh.... I wanna play!!!!
Here's my suggestions:
(http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/simon.jpg)
(http://autismdragons.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/megamind4.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/kiddykawk/brain.jpg)
(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/508e7e50ecad048b22000029-960/dr-evil.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wn1y_lrYrQI/UTpvbn7ymrI/AAAAAAAABlU/Ue-gHMZ3IIU/s320/StewiesGeneric_2010_R3F.jpg)

The third one down is a toss out, he has Gold in his name which makes him an object of much hate and he would be mistaken for a real person as well  by some of the dim lefty's.

How about his pal Mini Me me instead?    :exp-grin: :exp-grin: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:

                                                             
Mini me
Mini me
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 14, 2013, 09:42:36 AM
Quote
MKing:
When you learn the capability to objectively understand both sides of an issue PRIOR to pretending you have a well considered opinion, then maybe you can offer advice.

Now that is RICH!

Incidentally, I think everyone here (on this thread), whatever their political leanings, has a good heart. MKing on the other hand, is a "rapacious bastard", heart as black as tar.

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmXxqcUoZH8lkqfpU6ouCZw2ZaXQgw_6qoT7FZ2TM9hXs6Si_a)

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 09:57:54 AM
Quote from: MKing
Maybe I can earn a new avatar from our benevolent lord and savior?
How about "THE BRAIN"  MKing, just a suggestion.  :exp-grin: :exp-grin:
Ooooh.... I wanna play!!!!

(http://autismdragons.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/megamind4.jpg)


Love this guy!!

He certainly has merit, a top contender for sure.  :emthup: :emthup: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 14, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
Quote
MKing:
When you learn the capability to objectively understand both sides of an issue PRIOR to pretending you have a well considered opinion, then maybe you can offer advice.

Now that is RICH!

Incidentally, I think everyone here (on this thread), whatever their political leanings, has a good heart. MKing on the other hand, is a "rapacious bastard", heart as black as tar.

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmXxqcUoZH8lkqfpU6ouCZw2ZaXQgw_6qoT7FZ2TM9hXs6Si_a)

WHD

But of course you do. Everyone you agree with is good and noble and true, those who disagree and support their position at least as well as you and your friends do yours must be evil, disgusting and black.

You do realize what projecting onto others using a color comparison like this means about YOU, right?

LOL, that's why I said everybody else here has a good heart, MKing, and here there are lefties and righties. You on the other hand are neither right nor left, nor in between. You are pure dissembler, with a desire to perpetuate elite BAU for TPTB.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 12:42:16 PM
I vote for What, Me Worry Alfred E. Neumann.

(http://sixcentpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/mad.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 02:00:48 PM
I vote for What, Me Worry Alfred E. Neumann.

(http://sixcentpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/mad.jpg)

RE

Thanks, a wise decision, glad to see you have finally seen the light.   :icon_sunny:

                                                         
GO For President
GO For President
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 14, 2013, 02:51:11 PM
Thanks, a wise decision, glad to see you have finally seen the light.   :icon_sunny:

What light?  That Socrates is a Jackass?  I've known that since his first post.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: JoeP on August 14, 2013, 05:01:51 PM
I am a Libertarian currently who will vote or support anyone, or the member of any political party, who in my opinion is a just honest person with an agenda to do good. 

I just do not understand why so many well meaning folks cling to their belief that libertarianism is so "pure"...or at least less tainted than the D or R choice? I mean it's actually more polluted if you just think about it. Some might say L is simply R on steroids.  Maybe you can tell me different after you've read the facts (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=673.msg11212#msg11212). GO, I'm surprized your boy Corzine isn't a L.  Maybe that was just some kinda wierd karma thingie going on in your house?
 
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 14, 2013, 06:37:05 PM
I am a Libertarian currently who will vote or support anyone, or the member of any political party, who in my opinion is a just honest person with an agenda to do good. 

I just do not understand why so many well meaning folks cling to their belief that libertarianism is so "pure"...or at least less tainted than the D or R choice? I mean it's actually more polluted if you just think about it. Some might say L is simply R on steroids.  Maybe you can tell me different after you've read the facts (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=673.msg11212#msg11212). GO, I'm surprized your boy Corzine isn't a L.  Maybe that was just some kinda wierd karma thingie going on in your house?

According to What It Means to Be a Libertarian by Charles Murray, Broadway Books, 1997.


    The American Founders created a society based on the belief that human happiness is intimately connected with personal freedom and responsibility. The twin pillars of the system they created were limits on the power of the central government and protection of individual rights. . . .

    A few people, of whom I am one, think that the Founders' insights are as true today as they were two centuries ago. We believe that human happiness requires freedom and that freedom requires limited government.


    The correct word for my view of the world is liberal. "Liberal" is the simplest anglicization of the Latin liber, and freedom is what classical liberalism is all about. The writers of the nineteenth century who expounded on this view were called liberals. In Continental Europe they still are. . . . But words mean what people think they mean, and in the United States the unmodified term liberal now refers to the politics of an expansive government and the welfare state. The contemporary alternative is libertarian. . . .

    Libertarianism is a vision of how people should be able to live their lives-as individuals, striving to realize the best they have within them; together, cooperating for the common good without compulsion. It is a vision of how people may endow their lives with meaning-living according to their deepest beliefs and taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 14, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
10 Reasons Why Libertarianism is Bullshit
  :icon_mrgreen:

1.  It's impossible.  Libertarianism is impossible except for survivalist nutters and hermits.  Humans need a social structure because we're a social species.  Trusting that humans can moderate their own behavior on their own is just a fantasy.  If we were as sparsely distributed as wolf packs, we could get along in our small groups without intervention from a higher authority in theory.... but the matriarch or patriarch would be the higher authority so even that isn't strictly libertarian.  Anyway, we're long past the point in evolution where we could manage our behavior without a formal structure.  Michael Shermer theorizes the optimal size for a human community to manage without any oversight is about 150.  Those days are gone.

2.  It's naive.  It assumes people are basically good.  This is a nice thought, but it's just plain wrong.  Just as we differ in our DNA we differ in our personalities.  Some of us will go through life making very few decisions that negatively impact others, and some of us are sociopaths.  At its best, government protects the truly good from the sociopaths.  Without a government, we would be reduced to lynch mobs which can only avenge bad deeds, not prevent them.  And we certainly wouldn't have something like the FBI, which can trace the path of a serial killer from one area to the next based on DNA evidence, etc.  I think the people who believe that "survival of the fittest ergo libertarianism" probably assume they are the fittest themselves.  They don't think that they would be the victims of a sociopath.  Bernie Madoff counted on this kind of hubris to make his illegal millions.

3.  It's cold-hearted.  For example, regulations about safety in cars aren't needed because over time car companies would be forced to make safer cars or they'd go out of business.  So the people who died in fires caused by exploding gas tanks in Ford Pintos, or in wrecks caused by the design of their Corvair were just collateral damage in the evolution of better cars.  People who died because of unregulated businesses did nothing to deserve that fate, except perhaps not be able to afford better cars.  And the pseudo-Darwinism of libertarianism really doesn't care what the strong do to the weak.  Rich and powerful people are good and deserve to be rich and powerful.  The poor and powerless deserve what they get.

4.  It ignores history.  We haven't always had a U.S. government.  It's only a little more than 200 years old.  But we do know earlier forms of society.  We've had monarchies.  We've had theocracies.  We had the ancient Roman & Greek systems that privileged people with money.  Modern democracy certainly has its failings, but we really be better off returning to "less" government considering what our previous systems gave us?

5.  It's not natural.  The underlying assumption of libertarianism is that government is an artificial construct that interferes with natural behavior, which they believe works just fine on its own.  There's no evidence that humanity could have survived without some form of social organization.  The instinct for survival that causes some to climb to the top of the heap and others to hide from the climbers just doesn't result in a society that works for large numbers.  It probably won't work for small numbers, either. 

6.  It ignores human failings.  We no longer live in family groups in tiny villages, and if Libertarianism became the "law" of the land, we would pretty much have to go back to that.  In our distant past, we helped each other within our own group and competed against other groups for resources.  Surviving without a government would require all of us to gather into small groups for protection and predation.  Child abuse and spousal abuse would again be perpetrated with no recourse.  Victims of alcoholism or mental illness would have no access to services, and their families would suffer.  A small group's only hope of survival when "infected" with a defective member would be to ostracize that member.

7.  It ignores human compassion.  Libertarianism denies the instinct to help others, which has been shown in other species as well. Government taking a role in "lifting up" the poor is an extension of the instinct we would follow individually in a smaller group.   By blaming the victim, libertarians can imagine themselves the agents of their own good luck.  There's no place in their worldview for helping the blind, the deaf, the physically impaired, or the children of these people.  The mentally ill who are incapable of working for a living due to their illness?  *shrug*  At least religions have charities that make a dent in these issues.  Secular libertarians leave the powerless to their own devices as if blindness or mental illness were somehow the victim's own fault.  There have been hundreds if not thousands of examples of other animals helping each other or even other species, so compassion seems to be instinctual.  I have yet to meet a libertarian who has a relative that needs help to survive.  If I had the power to curse people, I'd curse libertarians with multiple sclerosis.  Let's see how many ways they make use of the ADA law's provisions.

8.  It ignores Somalia.  Somalia is the perfect example of libertarianism in action. There's basically no government in Somalia so we can see what would happen.   Without a government, pirates and tribal groups terrorize others.  Women and children are mistreated.  Disease is rampant.  There's no viable business other than crime.  It's a chaotic mess.  Why would anyone want to copy that model?

9.  It's selfish.  On the surface, a Libertarian saying that he doesn't know what's best for someone else seems humble and charitable.  But really, sometimes he would know what's best.  He would know that a woman being beaten on a daily basis by an abusive husband would be better off if she could get out of that situation.  He would know that someone with asthma would be better off in a world with less air pollution.  His pseudo-humility covers up a basic unwillingness to get involved.  Or, he's got his head in the sand when it comes to the problems of society and of individuals that are just too big or complicated for a family or small group to help with.

10.  It's provincial.  It ignores the fact that the economies and socieities of all the world's nations are now interconnected.  If someone lives in the country with well water, septic tank and a burn pit for their garbage, they can fantasize they are not relying on the government.  But then when their four-year-old comes down with cancer, they're only too happy to take him to the big city hospital for chemo that was studied using federal funding.

 So...  I call BULLSHIT on libertarianism.  It's a stupid position to take.  Even if it could be implemented it couldn't succeed.  Its thinly veiled social "darwinism" but without any of the nuance of true evolutionary theory.

Don't worry about this logic reaching a Libertarian. When they run into hard nosed reality and logic they scream, "tyranny!" Somebody wants to take my STUFF! They never read past the first reason. Libertarians have poor eyesight too and need to see something bright shiny and yellow  in order to pay attention.

(http://cdn03.cdnwp.thefrisky.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/29/gimme-gimme-GIF.gif)(http://www.envisionyourdreamsllc.com/Golden-Pig.jpg)          (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/245.gif)


Title: THE FOUNDERS WERE MANY THINGS, BUT THEY WEREN'T LIBERTARIANS
Post by: agelbert on August 14, 2013, 07:29:20 PM


part of the right's newfound interest in all things constitutional, there's been a related push of late to recast the framers of the Constitution. Today's far-right activists, we're told, are the ideological descendents of the Founding Fathers.

Indeed, in Christopher Beam's widely noted piece this month, we're told, "The Constitution was a libertarian document that limited the role of the state to society's most basic needs, like a legislature to pass laws, a court system to interpret them, and a military to protect them."

This is certainly a welcome characterization for those who prefer to believe most of the progressive bedrocks of modern American society -- Social Security, Medicare, etc. -- are not only unconstitutional, but are wholly at odds with the vision of limited government established by the framers.

The problem, of course, is that the framers weren't libertarians. John Vecchione had a good piece on this the other day.



Quote
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. Thomas Jefferson determined to wage war by simply denying foreigners the right to trade with the U.S. So did Madison. What libertarian has ever thought the government could cut off trade between free individuals?

Further, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine supported the French Revolution. That revolution denied there was anything the state could not do in the name of the people. Jefferson never repudiated his support for that tyranny and Thomas Paine was only slightly more dismissive even after it nearly killed him. [...]

The Founders believed in carefully delineated federal powers either broad (Hamilton) or limited (Jefferson, sometimes) but all believed in a more powerful state than libertarians purport to believe in. If ever there was a libertarian document it was the Articles of Confederation. There was no national power. The federal government could not tax. Its laws were not supreme over state laws. It was in fact, the hot mess that critics of libertarians believe their dream state would be ... and it was recognized as such by the majority of the country and was why the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation is the true libertarian founding document and this explains the failure of libertarianism.  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)



Jon Chait noted a recent piece from historian Gordon Wood that touches on this, emphasizing the similarities between the debates of the framers and those of today."The great irony, of course, is that the Anti-Federalist ancestors of the Tea Partiers opposed the Constitution rather than revered it," Wood explained.


And this, too, speaks to a larger truth. As Ezra Klein noted yesterday, "In reality, the tea party -- like most everyone else -- is less interested in living by the Constitution than in deciding what it means to live by the Constitution."

Or as Matt Yglesias added this morning, "The field of constitutional law has always featured a great deal of what's known as 'motivated belief' where people look at the document and tend to see it as supporting their preexisting policy conclusions."

The same is true of the nation's founders, and the drive on the right to convince themselves that they think as the framers did, which somehow gives contemporary conservatism a weighty, historical legacy, and a strong foundation from which to attack the modern welfare state.

This might be more compelling if it weren't transparent nonsense.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_12/027330.php (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_12/027330.php)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 03:57:40 AM
I am a Libertarian currently who will vote or support anyone, or the member of any political party, who in my opinion is a just honest person with an agenda to do good. 

I just do not understand why so many well meaning folks cling to their belief that libertarianism is so "pure"...or at least less tainted than the D or R choice? I mean it's actually more polluted if you just think about it. Some might say L is simply R on steroids.  Maybe you can tell me different after you've read the facts (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=673.msg11212#msg11212). GO, I'm surprized your boy Corzine isn't a L.  Maybe that was just some kinda wierd karma thingie going on in your house?

Excellent article. I did not know that david Koch's libertarian project was specifically designed to peel votes from Carter.

My own thought is that libertarianism is just another scheme to debase regulations, loot the commons, and leave the playing field safe for big fish to eat the little fish. End game: Somalia.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7QDv4sYwjO0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Eddie on August 15, 2013, 06:32:01 AM
It comes back to definitions. So many times we are using the same terms and ascribing different meanings to those terms. Libertarian party politics as practiced by the Koch brothers is not what I'm talking about when I call myself a libertarian (note the small L).

When I call myself a libertarian, what that means to me is that I believe, first and foremost, in the right to individual freedom and the concomitant personal responsibility that it takes to live that way. I neither want, nor expect, anyone else, particularly not a conglomeration of people doing business as "the State" to (a) take care of my needs or (b) try to run my life.

I believe, as Ted K. stated, that the direct, inevitable outcome of an overgrown, technological society is the loss of individual freedom. You can fight back, or you can prepare to be enslaved.

I believe that most schemes aimed at taxing working people and giving money to the less fortunate become corrupted by the corporate elites, who always manage to funnel a significant part of the money into their own bank accounts through "administering" these programs.

I believe that it is the working poor and the middle class that do the heavy lifting under this corrupt system, and that big money manages to largely exempt itself from participating in the funding of health care, old age pensions, and veterans benefits.  This offends my sense of fairness.

I'm anti-war, because wars are fought for all the wrong reasons, and it results in a situation where all the money gets spent for guns (and satellites and nukes), and none for butter (or doctors). It enriches some few at the expense of the many, and it sacrifices the lives of poor kids who either don't know better or who have no choice.

I'm leery of programs aimed at "leveling the playing field"or redistributing tax money to people just because they are poor...because I think (actually I know) that it creates a cycle of dependency and a host of other unintended consequences.

I believe I have every right to complain, because, unlike a lot of people, I've paid huge sums of money into this system, far in excess of any possible benefit I can expect to receive. Yes I have received benefits from the system. I don't deny that. And I have no problem with any individual taking what the system offers...but I do plan to cut my support for this system by eliminating most of my own dependency on the currency...and without people like me, who pay the lions share, this system will fall apart like a cheap piece of Chinese consumer crap, sooner rather than later.

I have a pet theory...and that theory is that anybody who supports a system that redistributes the wealth in a major way, as our system now does, probably gets more than they give...or at least feels that the system has been generally fair. If this is you, you probably have never been self-employed. You probably always had your taxes taken from you in the form of a payroll deduction, up front, so that you never were allowed to hold your own money in your hand before handing it over to TPTB.

I am getting out of debt. I am planning a new life that creates a different kind of wealth, the kind that is hard to tax. I'm getting out of the debt economy and into the gift economy. I'm going to concentrate on growing food and producing my own power. In other words, I am quietly withdrawing my support for this unsustainable clusterfuck we call progress.

Good luck on keeping the system going without guys like me.



Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 15, 2013, 08:02:00 AM
8.  It ignores Somalia.  Somalia is the perfect example of libertarianism in action. There's basically no government in Somalia so we can see what would happen.   Without a government, pirates and tribal groups terrorize others.  Women and children are mistreated.  Disease is rampant.  There's no viable business other than crime.  It's a chaotic mess.  Why would anyone want to copy that model?
Sometimes words aren't enough...
(http://samwarren55.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/free-photo-cow-manure.jpg)

Somalia is a strawman!  It is not a libertarian ideal!  It is not libertarianism in action! CHAOS IS NOT ANARCHY.  Alan Moore said it best:
(http://alexpeak.com/twr/vfv/excerpts/chaos.jpg)

You want a good real-world example of libertarian principles in action?  The Amish.
(http://amishbeat.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/amish_21.jpg)
They don't take anything from the government, not public schooling, not social security, not even public water, sewage, or electricity, and they are pacifists.

Does everyone want to live like the Amish?  Of course not.  And some of your criticisms about libertarianism obviously do apply to the Amish: the patriarchs keep the order, the groups are small, they are provincial, and they do require kicking out troublemakers.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 15, 2013, 09:16:25 AM
You want a good real-world example of libertarian principles in action?  The Amish.
...
Does everyone want to live like the Amish?  Of course not.  And some of your criticisms about libertarianism obviously do apply to the Amish: the patriarchs keep the order, the groups are small, they are provincial, and they do require kicking out troublemakers.

The Caveat at the end there is very significant.

I can't see how you can present the Amish as Libertarian.  It is a Religious Cult, with a VERY STRICT Code of Conduct, which goes right down to telling you what you have to wear for clothing and how often you shave (never).  Anybody not adhering to the group norm is summarily ejected.

The Amish also have numerous internal problems which occassionally escape the closed network and get out in the open.  There was the recent Beard Cutting (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/us/amish-sect-leader-gets-15-years-in-beard-cutting-attacks.html?_r=0) scandal, and before that revelations of systemic child sexual abuse (http://amishdarkside.blogspot.com/) within the Amish community.

So while those bucolic pictures of Amish Farms with the horses pulling the plows are nice in an idylllic sense, be careful with holding up the Amish as a Model of Libertarian ideals.  They got a lot of problems.

I think I need to write an article covering this topic.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 15, 2013, 09:36:22 AM
You want a good real-world example of libertarian principles in action?  The Amish.
be careful with holding up the Amish as a Model of Libertarian ideals.  They got a lot of problems.
Please note: I said principles, you said ideals.  The Amish are far from ideal, absolutely.  But they are real.  And they do live by their principles.

Also, I think people are confusing libertarianism, freedom from government oppression, with libertinism, doing whatever you want.  I am partially to blame with my quotes about the "Land-Of-Do-As-You-Please".

Finally, I'm really misspeaking when I say libertarian principles.  There really is only one: do not initiate force or fraud against another person.  Everything else is commentary.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 15, 2013, 09:51:03 AM

Please note: I said principles, you said ideals.  The Amish are far from ideal, absolutely.  But they are real.  And they do live by their principles.


Some do, others do not, but one of the Principles is definitely NOT freedom to choose what clothing you will wear.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 15, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
Some do, others do not, but one of the Principles is definitely NOT freedom to choose what clothing you will wear.
You are quite right on that, and that illustrates an excellent point.  They have decided, as a group, that having a certain look is important to them, and if you want to be a part of that group, you need to adopt that look.  That is not what I mean by coercion.  No one is forcing them to be a part of that group.  Joining the group is voluntary, and they can decide to leave if they want.  No one is holding a gun to their head.

Contrast that with, say, raw milk.  When the government says you can't sell raw milk, eventually they do come with guns drawn and force you to do what they say.  You don't have any choice in the matter.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Eddie on August 15, 2013, 11:22:05 AM
Damn milkleggers with their dangerous unpasteurized, unhomogenized, non-irradiated, no-antibiotic, no- hormone cow juice.
Got to round them up and teach 'em a lesson. This is America. We have a government that protects us against criminal farmers who deliberately try to beat the system.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 15, 2013, 11:25:30 AM
That is not what I mean by coercion.  No one is forcing them to be a part of that group.  Joining the group is voluntary, and they can decide to leave if they want.  No one is holding a gun to their head.

Not a REAL gun, but there is a Metaphorical Gun held to the head of every Amish, which is either buy the Group Think and Group Meme for living, or be CAST OUT.

Joining is also not entirely voluntary either, you really have to be BORN into it.  I don't know of any instances of people who were not BORN AMISH who turned Amish later in life and became accepted as such by the Amish Community.  Perhaps there are some, but none I am aware of.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 15, 2013, 11:29:45 AM
Damn milkleggers with their dangerous unpasteurized, unhomogenized, non-irradiated, no-antibiotic, no- hormone cow juice.
Got to round them up and teach 'em a lesson. This is America. We have a government that protects us against criminal farmers who deliberately try to beat the system.

Hi Doc, I would just love to have a few ears of non GMO corn on the  cob before summer is over, and they won't let them label it as such. Things are really out of control.   :-[

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 15, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
That is not what I mean by coercion.  No one is forcing them to be a part of that group.  Joining the group is voluntary, and they can decide to leave if they want.  No one is holding a gun to their head.
Not a REAL gun, but there is a Metaphorical Gun held to the head of every Amish, which is either buy the Group Think and Group Meme for living, or be CAST OUT.

Joining is also not entirely voluntary either, you really have to be BORN into it.  I don't know of any instances of people who were not BORN AMISH who turned Amish later in life and became accepted as such by the Amish Community.  Perhaps there are some, but none I am aware of.
Yes, you can be shunned, but in this day that is not such an existential threat.  Now, after Englisher society collapses, that threat may very well mean life-or-death, but for now it is purely social.

You are pretty much correct about needing to be born into it.  There definitely have been cases of adoption, but that was still from early childhood.  I believe the main issue is that they don't believe people would choose to live plainly unless that is how they were raised, so you would have to live with them following their lifestyle for many years before you would be accepted.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: agelbert on August 15, 2013, 12:17:36 PM
JDwheeler,
That crack about Somalia was scraping the bottom of the barrel for a something to call a "srawman". Give me afucking break here. You REFUSED to discuss Any OF THE OTHER VALID POINTS BECAUsE YOU ARE DEFENDINFG A CULT Of selfishness. DANCE AROUND THAT, YOU, and anybody else. That dog won't hunt.

There are several points in the Libertarianism is BULLSHIT post. Argue them or keep pretending you are, as a social being, CAPABLE of living independent of GOVERNMENT! I call BULLSHIT on that thought.

I swear, selfish people can justify absolutely ANYTHING to defend their 'right' to do any God Damned thing they want!

I'm glad people self-identify as libertarians. It gives rational and compassionate beings a heads up as to who NOT TO COUNT ON when you need help who WILL SCREAM LOUDEST when they are in a jam and want YOU TO HELP THEM. Hypocrites 'R' THEM  (and PROUD OF THEIR DUPLICITY TOO!).  ;)


This is what Libertarians REFUSE to 'GET' or just DANCE AROUND because of their egocentric world view:


Quote
If we try to stay in the bubble of spiritual self-sufficiency, the hurting of the world sneaks in as various of the new diseases, forcing itself upon our consciousness. Consider, for example, two of the most significant of the new diseases, MCS (multiple chemical sensitivities) and electromagnetic sensitivity. Toxic chemicals and EMFs are the physicalization of our negativity, as well as the byproduct of our mindset of separation that sees nature as an indifferent reservoir for our wastes. For the chemically and electromagnetically sensitive, no amount of retreat is enough. Trying to avoid negativity, we have to retreat further and further, until the repeated intrusion of the world upon our serenity makes us realize we have to cleanse the whole world of toxic chemicals and all they represent, not just avoid them.

Interdependency is something of a euphemism for what is really a form of dependency. The latter word is a trigger. Whether it is emotionally, financially, or spiritually, most people seek to avoid dependency. That, I am sorry to say, is a conceit. By our nature as ecological beings, we are helplessly dependent on other beings to survive, to thrive, even to exist.

In the heyday of the age of science, we thought it human destiny to become independent of all other beings: we aspired to a wholly artificial world in which even food would be synthesized, the flesh transcended, and death overcome. No longer. We are learning, painfully, our utter dependency on the rest of nature.

Interdependency is a sub-category of dependency in that it is mutual and multidirectional, but that doesn’t make us any less dependent. And that is OK! To be dependent is to be alive – it is to be enmeshed in the give and take of the world. And when we allow ourselves to enter it, to release the perceived safety of self-sufficiency, we access and can sustain an intensity of being and of love that we could only glimpse before.

Aristotle quote:

He who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a god.

Aglebert addition to Aristotle's quote: Or a CON ARTIST.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 15, 2013, 02:11:21 PM
JDwheeler,
That crack about Somalia was scraping the bottom of the barrel for a something to call a "srawman". Give me afucking break here. You REFUSED to discuss Any OF THE OTHER VALID POINTS BECAUsE YOU ARE DEFENDINFG A CULT Of selfishness. DANCE AROUND THAT, YOU, and anybody else. That dog won't hunt.

There are several points in the Libertarianism is BULLSHIT post. Argue them or keep pretending you are, as a social being, CAPABLE of living independent of GOVERNMENT! I call BULLSHIT on that thought.

I swear, selfish people can justify absolutely ANYTHING to defend their 'right' to do any God Damned thing they want!

I'm glad people self-identify as libertarians. It gives rational and compassionate beings a heads up as to who NOT TO COUNT ON when you need help who WILL SCREAM LOUDEST when they are in a jam and want YOU TO HELP THEM. Hypocrites 'R' THEM  (and PROUD OF THEIR DUPLICITY TOO!).  ;)
First, I used to identify myself as a libertarian, but quite frankly, I am disgusted by a lot of what is coming out of places like The Burning Platform, Lew Rockwell, and The Daily Bell.  The same sort of Corporatism that infected conservatism and liberalism has gotten its teeth into libertarianism.  I view the corporate veil as a form of government welfare.  I do not think mega-corporations should have the same rights as individuals; personally I call those who do neo-libertarians.

As to Somalia, that wasn't scraping the bottom of the barrel, that was crossing the line.  I think you did have a lot of valid points, although I think you took many too far.  Like using the word "impossible": I reserve that for things that violate physical laws, like a perpetual motion machine or infinite growth on a finite planet.  "Unworkable" is a better word for something that goes against current human behavior.

One major objection to all your arguments is the unstated assumption that people in government are better.  Perhaps if we had a Confucian system where all civil servants had to pass an exam to make sure the government retained the "mandate of Heaven" this would be the case.  Empirically, in the current system in the USA, we seem to select for less moral people to be our leaders.  In that sense I think libertarianism is far less naive than liberalism.

Safety regulations are useful, as is product testing in general.  Ever hear of Consumer Reports?  The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval?  If it's sufficiently useful, and it's not being provided for free by the government, people will pay to know that what they are buying is safe, and that represents an opportunity for private industry.  Plus, classical libertarians always draw the line at fraud, so if a company is lying, then a government response is welcome.

Libertarianism may be unprecedented, but liberalism also ignores history and economics.  Governments fall when they become too heavy of a burden on their citizens.  They have even come up with a number: 18% of GDP is the maximum that can be extracted.  The only reason the USA can get away with spending more than that is by borrowing the difference.  That will end badly.

As to not being natural, you're confusing anarchism with libertarianism, which, quite frankly is not hard to do since a number of people are both.  Strictly speaking, though, libertarianism is just against initiating force or fraud, and many libertarians want a government that helps with that and with redressing cases where force or fraud was initiated.

I think you are absolutely right that under libertarianism we would have to return to living in small, provincial groups.  I also think that is moot.  It's going to happen anyway whether we like it or not.

The part about compassion was really already covered.  Historically, people were compassionate before government stepped in.  Like product testing, people will (and already do) step in if government assistance is not available.  And in the context of small groups, compassion is much more prevalent.

You are absolutely right that there are some problems that are too big for the individual or the small group, but right now, the assumption seems to be that the Federal government should solve all our problems.  Problems need to be solved as close to the source as possible.  If an individual or small group can solve a problem, then they most likely are the best ones to solve it; they are more familiar with it and are most concerned with the outcome.

Overall, you have some very valid concerns with libertarianism.  Some of the people in it have made a mockery out of it.  But that doesn't mean you should throw everything out.  The principle of non-aggression (not initiating force or fraud) is still a good one.


Title: Re: Remember
Post by: JoeP on August 15, 2013, 02:51:04 PM
GO, if you ever consider trying to break into the Amish-Libertarian "club", you could always buy one of these:

(http://www.toytractortimes.com/images/at/1233774691.jpg)

Mount it and then roll into one of their villages exspousing the virtues of libertarianism.  They just might be impressed and let you into their club.  Or maybe not...they might think you are simply disingenuous.   

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 05:36:07 PM
@M King: I discussed personal responsibility over on the Doomstead Diners Favorite Quotations page in case you missed it. Of course it was completely denigrated by the Number one brown nosing sycophant here who sees the march toward the complete Communist Nanny State as a marvel of Progressiveness.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 15, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
    The American Founders created a society based on the belief that human happiness is intimately connected with personal freedom and responsibility.

Holy Crap, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY???

How rare is that nowadays...blame it on the government, the Republicrats, blame it on oil and banksters and civilization, hell I'm not even sure in this modern age of self esteem building exercises and a denigration of any kind of competitive selection that people can even spell the words, let alone understand what they mean.

Dark Ages stuff MKing, like thrift, savings accounts instead of credit scores, working an extra job to bank some dough, doing without, going to a library instead of Amazon, having a family meal with a father at the head of the table, investing in blue chip stocks instead of lottery tickets, learning how to read in school instead of how to put on a condom, all sorts of silly shit like that.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 05:48:56 PM
So true. So honest to God TRUE! But I wonder what M King thinks. I also wonder what Uncle Bob thinks with his great move to independence in Tasmania and all. No fucking progressives there, I bet. K
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 06:07:43 PM
    The American Founders created a society based on the belief that human happiness is intimately connected with personal freedom and responsibility.

Holy Crap, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY???

How rare is that nowadays...blame it on the government, the Republicrats, blame it on oil and banksters and civilization, hell I'm not even sure in this modern age of self esteem building exercises and a denigration of any kind of competitive selection that people can even spell the words, let alone understand what they mean.

Dark Ages stuff MKing, like thrift, savings accounts instead of credit scores, working an extra job to bank some dough, doing without, going to a library instead of Amazon, having a family meal with a father at the head of the table, investing in blue chip stocks instead of lottery tickets, learning how to read in school instead of how to put on a condom, all sorts of silly shit like that.

Motivated reasoning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning)

Do your own homework.

Ah, gimme dat ol' time religion. How marvelously self-justifying. How  eager to genuflect in the direction of the Received Wisdom. How holier-than-thou. How utterly redolent of pecksniffery.

Why don't you two just get a room and have done?
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 06:10:05 PM
So true. So honest to God TRUE! But I wonder what M King thinks. I also wonder what Uncle Bob thinks with his great move to independence in Tasmania and all. No fucking progressives there, I bet. K

So move. MKing will help you pack your trousseau.

Still waiting on the "pederasty" allegation. Waiting for the citation. Waiting for the proof. Waiting for you to do something besides change the subject, K.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 06:19:34 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 06:23:41 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

Find the quote and produce the post; or stand down. I have read a gracious plenty of the postings here, and Remember none of this.

Many here question your sanity; I now question your honesty. Stand and deliver.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 06:31:18 PM
FUCK OFF SURLY. YOUR LOVERS INTENTIONALLY MADE THAT IMPOSSIBLE IN ORDER TO COVER THEIR TRACKS! Now why don't you get busy like a dog and cover all of this with Algelbarts vomit in a back room somewhere as John likes to do. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 06:33:47 PM
Paradise.

peasants for plutocracyjpg
peasants for plutocracyjpg
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 15, 2013, 06:36:27 PM
FUCK OFF SURLY. YOUR LOVERS INTENTIONALLY MADE THAT IMPOSSIBLE IN ORDER TO COVER THEIR TRACKS! Now why don't you get busy like a dog and cover all of this with Algelbarts vomit in a back room somewhere as John likes to do. Karpatok

"By their deeds shall ye know them."

Produce your evidence. Consider yourself called out. And you will be called out until you either produce this post-- because I want to see it for myself-- or you withdraw this calumny.

This it is written; so shall it be done.

This irrational, hateful bullshit ends.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 06:53:56 PM
Like I said Surly, there went Agelbarts vomit to cover everything up. You dogs must inhabit the same outhouse.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

SUN? Hmm... K. From what I hear, you might benefit if the SUN project gets up and running. But your language lately does not recommend you. Do you have anything to offer such an attempt, or would you just rip every thing attempted just because?

WHD
 
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Ashvin on August 15, 2013, 07:06:46 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

Find the quote and produce the post; or stand down. I have read a gracious plenty of the postings here, and Remember none of this.

Many here question your sanity; I now question your honesty. Stand and deliver.

I don't know exactly what she is talking about, but I remember that Zombie/Eugenics thread certainly exposed some disturbing views...

consider this:


The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

Quote
Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 15, 2013, 07:19:53 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

Find the quote and produce the post; or stand down. I have read a gracious plenty of the postings here, and Remember none of this.

Many here question your sanity; I now question your honesty. Stand and deliver.

I don't know exactly what she is talking about, but I remember that Zombie/Eugenics thread certainly exposed some disturbing views...

consider this:


The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

Quote
Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE

I remember it but was so sick of the tribe bull shit that I decided not to comment. Sorry now that I didn't. It was disturbing as was the sending of people into the wilderness stuff that came around the same time.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 07:24:45 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

Find the quote and produce the post; or stand down. I have read a gracious plenty of the postings here, and Remember none of this.

Many here question your sanity; I now question your honesty. Stand and deliver.

I don't know exactly what she is talking about, but I remember that Zombie/Eugenics thread certainly exposed some disturbing views...

consider this:


The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

Quote
Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE
  // Thank you Ashvin. I had no idea how to retrieve this. There was another discussion as well, which I cannot find. I guess this shows that your formidable intelligence and memory will make you a very great defence lawyer in all probability. Anyway, I do not lie, and I do not forget such things because they are extremely disturbing to me. So thank you again. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 15, 2013, 07:30:31 PM
Quote
// Thank you Ashvin. I had no idea how to retrieve this. There was another discussion as well, which I cannot find. I guess this shows that your formidable intelligence and memory will make you a very great defence lawyer in all probability. Anyway, I do not lie, and I do not forget such things because they are extremely disturbing to me. So thank you again. Karpatok

Ashvin's intelligence is truly awesome and a real gift to the Diner.   :emthup: :emthup:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 07:40:01 PM
@Surly: How can there be a citation or proof when your butt master has buried everything with his second brown noser in the Doomstead garbage of antiquity? Just say it was discussed in the happy tribal sexual practices to come in the Elysian fields of SUN romance. Karpatok

Find the quote and produce the post; or stand down. I have read a gracious plenty of the postings here, and Remember none of this.

Many here question your sanity; I now question your honesty. Stand and deliver.

I don't know exactly what she is talking about, but I remember that Zombie/Eugenics thread certainly exposed some disturbing views...

consider this:


The actual activity of many species in nature does not justify our self centered behavior. Consider this reality:

Quote
Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it?

Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it?

Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups?

Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Depends on circumstances and whether this confers survival advantage or not to the community.  In cases of Surplus, no on all counts.  In cases of deficit where the survival of the Tribe was at stake, any or all could be worthwhile to pursue.

RE

I remember it but was so sick of the tribe bull shit that I decided not to comment. Sorry now that I didn't. It was disturbing as was the sending of people into the wilderness stuff that came around the same time.

I don't think you folks get how a tribe works. In a true tribe, anyone can say whatever they want to, about what they think the tribe should do. The tribe decides what is good for the tribe. If you don't like what RE said, you get to say so. He does not get to say what the tribe is to do, without the support of the tribe. In fact, the tribe may agree to send RE into the Wilderness if the tribe decides his attitude no longer serves the tribe.

That said, this is not a tribe, but an online community of self-appointed pundits. So call him out, don't condemn the whole community.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 07:45:59 PM
I have been calling him out,Duncan, over and over in case you haven't noticed. And all he does is hide it and make a joke of everything. And now I would like an apology from the Capo Surly who carries out his inquisition for him. Karpatok
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Petty Tyrant on August 15, 2013, 07:56:07 PM


Quote from: WHD
Fuck you, MKing.  :( I think you will use that same rational for drone strikes and the like, here in America. 'May the most rapacious bastard win.'

Oh goodness me, more than a decade in day to day drilling and operations of the oilfield and I have never heard such language! What are you, 12? While your inability to articulate the most basic response in any creative way is expected from those existing at the "gee I'm just here for the bandwagon" end of the Doomer spectrum, RE does like to claim this is somehow the brainiac elite of the Doomer world, so do try and do better next time, for the team, as it were.

Quote from: WHD


Hey Surly, WHD, MKing, long time eh?

This is amusing I think so Ill share.....
 I was catching up on a good dose of DD when the maid came to my hotel room to clean up, said about 15 minutes, I went out for over 30 said 'take your time, no rush'. Came Back and shes still here, and computer screen hasn't gone to screensaver, still in this thread but not where I left it.

I said 'been reading, that's ok,  what ya reckon?'

She said that was really interesting and she never knew all that stuff about the ww2 surrender of japan, but it doesn't surprise her with all the things the americans do and make out its all good when you see the news.....

Its good you follow the news.....

No, I don't, my father watches too much of it and then gets worked up and swears at the TV.

I said 'so you don't think the nuclear bombing was necessary to end the war and stop the japs fighting right down to the last kamikaze kid like we always thought?'

She replied' well that's what that So Crates ( sic ) guy reckons isn't it?, but hes not making sense because he doesn't care, probably one of those yanks that loves all the wars'.

This woman also said she left school at 14.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 07:58:46 PM
I have been calling him out,Duncan, over and over in case you haven't noticed. And all he does is hide it and make a joke of everything. And now I would like an apology from the Capo Surly who carries out his inquisition for him. Karpatok

From what I have seen, you weren't calling his words out, as much as calling him a child molester. As for Surly, there is no one here who has called out RE more on his ideas about what to do about TPTB. And for the record, if he has taken a turn toward RE's attitude about that, that I think is a small blind spot about the predations of gov.

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 15, 2013, 08:00:47 PM
I have been calling him out,Duncan, over and over in case you haven't noticed. And all he does is hide it and make a joke of everything. And now I would like an apology from the Capo Surly who carries out his inquisition for him. Karpatok

Lefty's have no shame    Think  Weiner, Slick Willie, John Edwards, Hillary, Kerry, the whole lot of them actually.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: RE on August 15, 2013, 08:01:48 PM
FUCK OFF SURLY. YOUR LOVERS INTENTIONALLY MADE THAT IMPOSSIBLE IN ORDER TO COVER THEIR TRACKS! Now why don't you get busy like a dog and cover all of this with Algelbarts vomit in a back room somewhere as John likes to do. Karpatok

This is of course nonsense, you just have to have enough intelligence to use the Search function.  Watson is expert with this of course since his life's work is searching down citations in Biblical Databases.  LOL.

Anyhow, there is no promulgation of pederasty in the above mentioned series of quotations, merely an acknowledgement that under different circumstances people behave in different ways, just a s Mice which live in overcrowded environments change their behavior.  You don't acknowledge this occurs?  Just read the fucking newzpaper.

KK, admit it, you are a leech off the State living on Social Security which you didn't even contribute to, it came from your ex-husband who no doubt found you as irritating to live with as the rest of us do here on the Diner.  You are fortunate I run the Diner like the Catholic Church does, with a No Divorce policy.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 08:02:12 PM
Quote
This woman also said she left school at 14.

LOL. I like that maid. Did she take pity on you?  ;)

Good to hear from you! Fill us in on the details!

WHD
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 08:05:29 PM
Quote
Lefty's have no shame

Lefty's and Righty's can blow.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Karpatok on August 15, 2013, 08:10:24 PM
Quote
Lefty's have no shame

Lefty's and Righty's can blow.  :icon_mrgreen:
  // Well nobody knows better than you, Duncan
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: WHD on August 15, 2013, 08:13:32 PM
Quote
Lefty's have no shame

Lefty's and Righty's can blow.  :icon_mrgreen:
  // Well nobody knows better than you, Duncan

Thanks for the praise K, but I don't think so.  ;)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 16, 2013, 01:00:20 AM
GO, if you ever consider trying to break into the Amish-Libertarian "club", you could always buy one of these:

(http://www.toytractortimes.com/images/at/1233774691.jpg)

Mount it and then roll into one of their villages exspousing the virtues of libertarianism.  They just might be impressed and let you into their club.  Or maybe not...they might think you are simply disingenuous.

This, BTW, +1.

"Disingenuous," indeed.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Surly1 on August 16, 2013, 01:32:35 AM
I have been calling him out,Duncan, over and over in case you haven't noticed. And all he does is hide it and make a joke of everything. And now I would like an apology from the Capo Surly who carries out his inquisition for him. Karpatok

Pretty pathetic.

So by YOUR peculiar logic, because a poster posed the questions posted above, the Diner endorses "cannibalism, killing your brother or sister, infanticide and pedophilia?"

That's your logic?

You will be skating on the frozen lakes of hell before you get an apology from me. It is you, madam who owe an apology, to the members of this board for offenses against truth. You have been aided and abetted by a couple of churlish pecksniffs who wish to score cheap, personal ad hominem debating points against RE, et al.  Pathetic, really.

Making a charge of pederasty against another adult is one of the most heinous things that one can do. It is a bell that cannot be unrung, even if charges proved to be false.  There are already too many powerless adults in this sick society willing to deprive children of their childhood, witness the Roman Catholic Church, and the serial allegations and coverups on this score.

Like many others here, I have spent too much time on this site to allow someone with a personal agenda to attempt to wreck it with baseless claims based on nothing but a blinding and irrational hatred.

There was a time when we discussed doom related issues here. I, for one, would love to return to those elysian times.  When the presence of lies, deceit, and hypocrisy  sometimes demands an answer. Which I promise you will get.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Petty Tyrant on August 16, 2013, 02:38:23 AM
It comes back to definitions. So many times we are using the same terms and ascribing different meanings to those terms. Libertarian party politics as practiced by the Koch brothers is not what I'm talking about when I call myself a libertarian (note the small L).

When I call myself a libertarian, what that means to me is that I believe, first and foremost, in the right to individual freedom and the concomitant personal responsibility that it takes to live that way. I neither want, nor expect, anyone else, particularly not a conglomeration of people doing business as "the State" to (a) take care of my needs or (b) try to run my life.

I believe, as Ted K. stated, that the direct, inevitable outcome of an overgrown, technological society is the loss of individual freedom. You can fight back, or you can prepare to be enslaved.

I believe that most schemes aimed at taxing working people and giving money to the less fortunate become corrupted by the corporate elites, who always manage to funnel a significant part of the money into their own bank accounts through "administering" these programs.

I believe that it is the working poor and the middle class that do the heavy lifting under this corrupt system, and that big money manages to largely exempt itself from participating in the funding of health care, old age pensions, and veterans benefits.  This offends my sense of fairness.

I'm anti-war, because wars are fought for all the wrong reasons, and it results in a situation where all the money gets spent for guns (and satellites and nukes), and none for butter (or doctors). It enriches some few at the expense of the many, and it sacrifices the lives of poor kids who either don't know better or who have no choice.

I'm leery of programs aimed at "leveling the playing field"or redistributing tax money to people just because they are poor...because I think (actually I know) that it creates a cycle of dependency and a host of other unintended consequences.

I believe I have every right to complain, because, unlike a lot of people, I've paid huge sums of money into this system, far in excess of any possible benefit I can expect to receive. Yes I have received benefits from the system. I don't deny that. And I have no problem with any individual taking what the system offers...but I do plan to cut my support for this system by eliminating most of my own dependency on the currency...and without people like me, who pay the lions share, this system will fall apart like a cheap piece of Chinese consumer crap, sooner rather than later.

I have a pet theory...and that theory is that anybody who supports a system that redistributes the wealth in a major way, as our system now does, probably gets more than they give...or at least feels that the system has been generally fair. If this is you, you probably have never been self-employed. You probably always had your taxes taken from you in the form of a payroll deduction, up front, so that you never were allowed to hold your own money in your hand before handing it over to TPTB.

I am getting out of debt. I am planning a new life that creates a different kind of wealth, the kind that is hard to tax. I'm getting out of the debt economy and into the gift economy. I'm going to concentrate on growing food and producing my own power. In other words, I am quietly withdrawing my support for this unsustainable clusterfuck we call progress.

Good luck on keeping the system going without guys like me.

Excellent post eddie, just superb, you spoke for me entirely. :emthup:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 16, 2013, 05:00:02 AM
Quote
There was a time when we discussed doom related issues here. I, for one, would love to return to those elysian times.

They were wonderful, but that could only last so long with the Left. They have to divide things up into different classes and politicize everything.

Then the hate and envy starts, Doom becomes a discussion about how to get the bastards with money. If they are not poor they are evil. You, AG and RE are the greatest practitioners of the art. My own faults at stoking the flames are acknowledged and I am truly sorry for the ill will and bad feelings my efforts have helped cause.

We all know what happens when politics and religion take over a forum designed for another reason, don't we.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: g on August 16, 2013, 05:31:28 AM
Quote
Excellent post eddie, just superb, you spoke for me entirely. :emthup:

Doc certainly posted one heck of a good posting with that one. Enjoyed it immensely myself.  :emthup: :emthup:
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Eddie on August 16, 2013, 06:10:30 AM
Thanks guys.

My assertion is still that your actions define you better than whatever label you put on yourself. The Koch brothers might call themselves libertarian, but they're still planet rapers with the mentality of common thugs, in my book.

Title: Re: Remember
Post by: Randy C on August 16, 2013, 04:43:01 PM
Great post Eddie, right there with ya buddy....  ;)
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: jdwheeler42 on August 16, 2013, 06:02:50 PM
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There was a time when we discussed doom related issues here. I, for one, would love to return to those elysian times.

They were wonderful, but that could only last so long with the Left. They have to divide things up into different classes and politicize everything.

Then the hate and envy starts, Doom becomes a discussion about how to get the bastards with money. If they are not poor they are evil....

We all know what happens when politics and religion take over a forum designed for another reason, don't we.
:LolLolLolLol:
Really? Surly? Golden?

What do you think is going to happen when JIT fails?

We are all going to stand in a circle and sing Kumbaya and get along?

The material preparations are the easy part.  The hard part of collapse, that part that turns it into doom, are the religious and political divisions.  That is what can tear us apart.

This is what can make the Doomstead Diner have an impact orders of magnitude greater than its size, being a safe place for different sides of issues to come together and discuss them rationally, without personal abuse.  That dialogue can be more precious than a field full of golden tractors.
Title: Re: Remember
Post by: JoeP on August 16, 2013, 06:19:37 PM
Quote
There was a time when we discussed doom related issues here. I, for one, would love to return to those elysian times.

They were wonderful, but that could only last so long with the Left. They have to divide things up into different classes and politicize everything.

Then the hate and envy starts, Doom becomes a discussion about how to get the bastards with money. If they are not poor they are evil....

We all know what happens when politics and religion take over a forum designed for another reason, don't we?

Really? Surly? Golden?

What do you think is going to happen when JIT fails?

We are all going to stand in a circle and sing Kumbaya and get along?

The material preparations are the easy part.  The hard part of collapse, that part that turns it into doom, are the religious and political divisions.  That is what can tear us apart.

This is what can make the Doomstead Diner have an impact orders of magnitude greater than its size, being a safe place for different sides of issues to come together and discuss them rationally, without personal abuse.  That dialogue can be more precious than a field full of golden tractors.

 :emthup:  I think you would be pressed to find a forum less "confined" than The Diner.