Doomstead Diner Menu => The Kitchen Sink => Topic started by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 11:14:59 AM

Title: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 11:14:59 AM
Let's talk about the future.


(Yeah, I know. I'll try not to start any new topics any time soon.)


In the Leonard Cohen song*, The Future, Cohen sings:

Quote
Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
Has crossed the threshold
And it has overturned
The order of the soul

Those of us who like to think and talk about the future may have noticed the tendency of events or processes to "slide in all directions," but the thought that there'd come a time when "there won't be nothing you can measure anymore" leaves us almost silent.  Some things in the future, after all, must have some sort of handle, some stability, something to get ahold of, lest the reeling mind be forced out of the future and back into the almost equally messy present.

In the not so distant past, some things you could count upon. Like climate zones. Climate zones weren't sliding in all directions. And a man (or woman) could count on a dollar being a dollar, and savings being savings, ... and otherwise the world would retain more-or-less the same basic shape and structure, though with fewer rotary dial pay phones about. Changes, we knew, were more or less linear and predictable. And while changes were afoot they were relatively few in number and small in nature. So it seems we're already watching things  slide in all directions -- with almost nothing holding still enough to measure the motion of yet other things. Are we, then, in the future? Are we there yet?

Not so long ago we knew that if the Arctic sea ice should ever disappear in summer, it'd be a hundred years in the future -- and only if we continued with Business As Usual (BAU) regards our fossil fuel habit. We knew the forests in our mountains would always be there. And we knew that we were heading right on into a collective awakening. We were about to enter the Ecological Age and dwell in a culture that cared more for Life than for piles of money, things, property, power....

It's so very strange this Future. (We are in the future we never quite imagined would come.) The big Wake Up never happened. In fact, most people seem pretty much oblivious to the fact -- even -- that the Arctic nearly entirely melted recently. Or what that might mean. And the people in this cafe around me right now don't appear to worry much about things sliding of in every direction. They are not wobbly on their knees the same way I am.

Which brings me to another of the soundtracks for this thread. This one's from Sting (and The Police):

    
Quote
First to fall over when the atmosphere is less than perfect
Your sensibilities are shaken by the slightest defect
You live you life like a canary in a coalmine
You get so dizzy even walking in a straight line

You say you want to spend the winter in Firenza
You're so afraid to catch a dose of influenza
You live your life like a canary in a coalmine
You get so dizzy even walking in a straight line

Canary in a coalmine
Canary in a coalmine
Canary in a coalmine

Life in The Future is Short But Meaningful (But the air in the future is thin, so we have to come back into the present now and then.)

Quote
"Life for an actual canary in a coal mine could be described in three words: 'short but meaningful.' Early coal mines did not feature ventilation systems, so legend has it that miners would bring a caged canary into new coal seams. Canaries are especially sensitive to methane and carbon monoxide, which made them ideal for detecting any dangerous gas build-ups. As long as the bird kept singing, the miners knew their air supply was safe. A dead canary signaled an immediate evacuation.

Even as gas detection technology improved, some mining companies still relied on the canary method well into the 20th century. Other animals were used occasionally, but only the canary had the ability to detect small concentrations of gas and react instinctively."

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-canary-in-a-coal-mine.htm (http://www.wisegeek.org/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-canary-in-a-coal-mine.htm)


I keep singing.

But the question remains, how are we to have an immediate evacuation? Things are gonna slide, slide in all directions. There won't be any things we can measure anymore.

But at the moment some things are just stable or slow-moving enough for us to plan an evacuation. There has got to be a plan. The air in the future is thin. We're going to have to get our boots on the ground. We'll be needing shovels. Right?

The Butterfly Effect

Quote
How Does a Caterpillar Turn into a Butterfly?

To become a butterfly, a caterpillar first digests itself. But certain groups of cells survive, turning the soup into eyes, wings, antennae and other adult structures

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=caterpillar-butterfly-metamorphosis-explainer (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=caterpillar-butterfly-metamorphosis-explainer)

We are digesting ourselves. No wonder things seem so chaotic and messy.

Our stories about ourselves, about our past, about our future -- everything -- is in hyperflux. Some cells survive. The rest becomes soup. We are growing new eyes -- and wings!

Before we wandered beyond the prosaic we found ourselves dissolving into poetry
We found ourselves out beyond the beyond
in a world neither pure dream nor pure fact
Where fresh new possibilities
Cling to the branches
Beside a swift river
Some of us sought gold bullion
Others -- canaries --
Warned of Midas'
Slow starvation
Long hunger
How in his later years he feared soup
Even as much as he longed for
Soup.



 * (Well, I had thought it was written by Cohen, not just sung by him. But some say it was written by Marco E. Beltrami)

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 11:21:24 AM
It's so very strange this Future. (We are in the future we never quite imagined would come.) The big Wake Up never happened. In fact, most people seem pretty much oblivious to the fact -- even -- that the Arctic nearly entirely melted recently. Or what that might mean. And the people in this cafe around me right now don't appear to worry much about things sliding of in every direction. They are not wobbly on their knees the same way I am.

Welcome to the club. I don't get it either, the way almost everyone can ignore reality.

It is the exact future I thought would eventually come, though. I thought this in 1972. I just didn't think it would happen on my watch.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: WHD on January 04, 2014, 11:38:12 AM
Quote
Let's talk about the future.


(Yeah, I know. I'll try not to start any new topics any time soon.)


No worries. Welcome, btw, JRM.  :)

My theory is as follows:

The Mayan end/beginning of their 5126 year long-count is the end of the trajectory of command and control domination, brought on by the rise of ag, cities and the written word.

The precession of the equinox signals the coming of the Aeon of the Waterbearer (Aquarius), in about 200 years.

The interim will be the collapse of civilization, resulting in a considerable population reduction, ecological devastation, misery for many. It is the unavoidable transition.

Humanity will be more free then, than at any time the last 5000 years. A time of healing of the waters, the healing of the earth.

Our task now is to be the seed of that new Aeon.  ;) http://sun4living.com/ (http://sun4living.com/)  :icon_sunny:

WHD 
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 11:43:34 AM
Eddie,

Could our collective breakdown become a collective breakthrough?

Maybe the necessary preconditions for collective transformation of our culture / civilization is the dissolve, the "soup" -- the chaos and messiness? -- of breakdown?

I'm a hope junky, I guess.

In any case, perhaps a few people (and groups?) -- a small minority -- are like those cells which do not dissolve into soup, having seen through the illusions of the dominant / dominator culture, having and holding a vision of a butterfly?

......

I guess my own answer to this question is that there are pathways to a just and sustainable / resilient culture.  But the dominant culture refuses to dissolve, become soup. It wants to live on.  There are no pathways toward this better future that don't involve dissolve -- dissolution, dis-integration -- of the old (now obsolete) cultural structure.

And then there's the whole probabalistic game of crystal ball gazing.  The metamorphosis of a catapillar into a butterfly cannot happen too quickly. The old World Order cannot be abandoned too quickly -- or if it crashes of a sudden it cannot support the metamorphosis. The timing has to be just right.  It's like skiiing down the downslope of Peak Everything (Heinberg). We don't know if we're going to be able to ski so gracefully. It seems doubtful. But graceful skiing must mean we're already on the slope, going down.... Doubt and fear have no place in it, 'cause there are no brakes.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 12:11:57 PM
My own doomer status is not fixed. I consider myself neither a full-doomer, an uber doomer, nor a doomer lite. All scenarios are possibilities. Along with the other possibilities, and the IMPOSSIBILITIES, which are just another class of possibilities.

It does give me something to do, collapse does. I do believe some kind of collapse is coming. I'm not so worried about me, but I care about my kids and their generation, and the ones that (possibly)  ;D follow. So I prep and read and think and plan...and execute the plan. "Breakthrough" is not word I let myself think. It's too big a word for me.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 12:46:20 PM
"Breakthrough" is not word I let myself think. It's too big a word for me.

Is it? Hmm.

It helps me to place this thing we're all going through in a really BIG contextual container -- in terms of history, in terms of future possibilities, in terms of systems and such....

There are very practical / pragmatic steps we can take that -- perhaps -- don't require such a BIG container/context.  But I guess MY part, or the part I want to play, in this stuff, is largely theoretical.  I enjoy theoretical stuff, I guess. I like theorizing.  I'm not at all sure I'm any good at it. But I try.

Over the years I've discovered that a lot of people think they know all sorts of things which they simply do not, because they haven't really researched their topic prior to making up their mind about the thing at hand.  One important example, I think, is the "Peak Oil (& peak net energy) Situation Means There's Gonna Be A Mass Die-off of Human Population" -- a hypothesis based on the true observation that since the so-called green revolution in agriculture we've been "eating fossil fuels," so to speak.  Well, that's true. We've been eating food calories in the form of converted fossil energy.

See, for example:

10 Calories in, 1 Calorie Out – The Energy We Spend on Food
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2011/08/11/10-calories-in-1-calorie-out-the-energy-we-spend-on-food/ (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2011/08/11/10-calories-in-1-calorie-out-the-energy-we-spend-on-food/)

So many people look at Peak Oil etc. and conclude that there's no path into the future that doesn't amount to a mass die-off of human population through famine. But they're not looking at the thing in its full context -- historical or otherwise (e.g., biological). Often they even lean on completely false claims like "Industrial agriculture is vastly more productive per acre or hectare than non-industrial agriculture" -- and that's nonsense, of course, as any permaculturist worth her salt can demonstrate.  The only way in which industrial ag is more productive is in terms of production per unit of LABOR (measured in human labor hours). That is, it's more "profitable" and better able to compete in a market economy as compared with, say, permaculture.

Folks who worry about questions concerning how we're going to feed the existing population in the future should more or less forget about analyses based on fossil fuel prices or availability and take a look at soil, land, hand tool availability, land access by the economically ordinary, skill and knowledge dispersement....
And they should look at water questions and issues. But just as importantly is the matter of labor. For if the future is going to involve a lot less employment within the capitalist-industrial system, as it appears, then those who still want to eat might like to spend some of their hours working with soil and plants and water and such. Right?

So my Big Picture thinking is really pretty grounded and simple in essence.  I'm interested in seeing through the illusions we live by in the dominant culture.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 01:04:21 PM
Speaking of breakdown vs breakthrough...

Quote
"As Robertson says, historically "the purpose of the money system has been to transfer wealth and well-being to rich and powerful citizens and countries from poorer and weaker ones." The problem is one of an abuse of power by a wealthy élite."

quote is from - http://www.renegadeeconomist.com/news/book-review-future-money-breakdown-or-breakthrough.html (http://www.renegadeeconomist.com/news/book-review-future-money-breakdown-or-breakthrough.html)

This guy has written a book about "Future Money" with the terms breakdown and breakthrough in the subtitle.  I've not read the book, nor all of the article linked, but thought to share it anyway.

I think he's entirely correct in the part I quoted above!
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 04, 2014, 01:11:56 PM
JRM,
I think you can see the way to turn around and the reasons why t will never happen.
All nations must declare a worldwide state of emergency of the environment. Population increase must stop. Not 2 children per couple, to stabilise, or 1 to slowly bring it down, but no reproduction at all for 25 years. People who are between 1 and 10 years old now will be between 25 and 35 years old then to begin reproducing again with a sustainable number of people.

All fossil fuel burning must stop post haste. Private cars banned in favour of bycicle and public transport. If you are not up to riding to your workplace in that way then you should be forced to retire and give the young unemployed a chance. Stay at the place if you need to.

Banks abolished, all debt wiped out. People then dont need to burn fuel to pay debt can be more ecologically conservative.

Stop mining and manufacturing. There is enough stuff around already to recycle into basic needs supplies.

I dont really know how humanure works to be used properly, but all permaculturists etc believe in it so I say all the fossil ful fertilizer sustaining our food productionis replaced by humanure. For every tractor or harvester no longer burning fuel a hundred men need to be there to do the same work anyway. Theres a lot of fertilizer.

Reorganize for growing food wherever the water sources are without requiring pumping. Human bucket passing chains can serve as shorter distance pumping.

Everyone eat a minimum of food and not more than needed. Disassemble buildings to use the materials to build shelters closer to the food production.

Set up solar reflector metal melters to repurpose any steel into agricultural tools like shovels as required without burning fossil fuels.

It could be done. The earth would recover. Everyne would be fitter healthier and happier. Nobody at all is a CONSUMER of anything other than food, simple.

Shipping and seeing the world can be done with sailing, a traveller can be fed for free, everyone who loves travel should get a holiday to another country or continent every few years in this way. Lots of other sustainable fun to be had.

Imagine the gen next holding interests andattention on 100 or even 1000 pages of a book instead of 100 characters in pointless personal updates.

wheeled motorsport on steep downhill runs at speed.

All the usual sports, just not under lights for prime time.(http://)

Solar panels can be ammased to power in amps and speakers for daytime concerts, or home hifi or even ipods. I wont live in a world without listening to the great guitarists wail, keith richards, jimmy hendrix, angus young, eddy van halen, mark knopfler, edge etc.

Once we are on an even keel wrt the environment, we look at utilising resources in a sustainable way again.

Never gunna happen, for the same reason every environmental summit has achieved nothing at all. No country wants an economic disadvantage. Most citizens dont want any economic disadvantage. Govts rely on economic activity to raise taxes and might not exist as legitimate leadership with that economic disadvantage. Banks and corporations which really rule the world would certainly have an economic disadvantage.

Its too late to transition economies to sustainable and renewable existence. Only a complete cessation of pollution and singleminded pursuit of that could work. Current power structures and authorities become immediately redundant. They die anyway, so would rather die later than sooner, so will never bite the bullet.

Think about being the change you want to see to use a clich'e. Begin feeding yourself and living sustainably yourself and being independent of debt and even money as much as possible. Join and form a community of others doing it. Get ahead of the game or get left behind.

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 04, 2014, 01:26:38 PM
JRM,
I think you can see the way to turn around and the reasons why t will never happen.

Uncle Bob,

Saying and believing that "it will never happen" sets up a self-fulfilling prophesy.

And setting the hurdle so high insures no jumpers.

I realize the situation is dire, and that's why I'm choosing not to be cynical or hopeless about it.

>hugs<
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 04, 2014, 02:14:30 PM
You can set up your own self fulfilling prophesies with your own actions and your own life. If I voted neocon instead of green as my method of getting govt to act, that would be true. I would be cynical and look after number 1 that way and pollute as much as everyone else waiting for govt to act.

Voting green and signing the odd petition are my token gestures at waiting for someone else to do it. Meanwhile our leaders argue endlessly over a 5% reduction in emissions by 2020 target is too hard on the economy. Even that insignificant bar is too high.

But how do you sell disolving into soup for the govts and economies and 100 men replacing every large tractor and harvester as the human labour replacement potential, which seems like the same thing? 

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 03:33:33 PM
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

This will go up as a compilation Blog article under Guest Author byline next week.

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 04:11:03 PM
My own doomer status is not fixed. I consider myself neither a full-doomer, an uber doomer, nor a doomer lite. All scenarios are possibilities. Along with the other possibilities, and the IMPOSSIBILITIES, which are just another class of possibilities.

Obviously we need a new category for Eddie.

FENCE SITTER OF DOOM  :icon_mrgreen:

(http://idyeah.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/fencesitter-1024x332.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 04, 2014, 04:25:05 PM
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

This will go up as a compilation Blog article under Guest Author byline next week.

RE

Post no 8080 at 3.33.33.

8 is sense of justice, judge & jury orkin man meme.  33 master number is strong family connection, double it and its the human family, RE's saving as many of his human family as he can LOL.

If you follow numerology.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 04:45:03 PM
My technical scientific side leans toward uber-doom.

My CFS side leans toward Doom Lite, with occasional bouts of painful deflation (possibly followed by hyperinflation).  Rinse, repeat, for a long time. (See Diner Abbreviations for CFS definition, if needed.)

My Inner Warrior longs for Full Doom.

My spiritual, mystical side believes that all possibilities are ongoing in some parallel universe or another.

Does that make it clear? That is not fence sitting. It's admitting I don't know.

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 04:58:15 PM
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

This will go up as a compilation Blog article under Guest Author byline next week.

RE

Post no 8080 at 3.33.33.

8 is sense of justice, judge & jury orkin man meme.  33 master number is strong family connection, double it and its the human family, RE's saving as many of his human family as he can LOL.

If you follow numerology.

Weird stuff like this has been occurring to me more often lately. Several of the Music Vids I used showed up on the Playlist of the Radio Station I listen to in the car on the way to work the next day.  I'm only in the car for around 15 minutes a day each way.  Not commonly played songs either, even on a Classic Rock station.

The FORCE is getting stronger.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/06/060ec21017e667e3f8041664f8fb7b6b9cc8bbaee97d2e4d120a4871b50911a5.jpg)

Sadly however, picking up the Louisville Slugger today after reading your post and making another try with

BEHOLD! THE MIGHTY HAND OF GOD!
(http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/12622moses-parting-red-sea.jpg)

as far as I know the Mariner Eccles building in Washington and Goldman-Sachs Headquarters in NY Shity are still standing. :(

I'll keep trying though.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 05:00:02 PM
It's admitting I don't know.

Channeling Imp?

Now I am worried.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: luciddreams on January 04, 2014, 05:04:55 PM
welcome to the Diner JRM.   :hi:

I like how you write, what you've said so far (that I've read) and your attitude.  Optimist that are reality based are awesome IMO.  Being reality based and optimistic is nearly a paradox.  I'm an optimistic pessimist at best, and that's only because I have two kids and have to be.  What good is a depressed pile of worthless goo gonna be for his children and wife?  So I try my damn hardest to remain as optimistic as reality will permit.  Again, this is no mean feat when we have things like entire nuclear power cores that have gone missing (well, we know they descended into the Earth, and that steam is coming up from the ground where they were), and in a world where "radiation clouds" are not science fiction. 

I've turned my back on the Matrix.  I and my family are hiding in plain sight, and we are attempting to move even further into the margins...where people talk about the reality that's generated via engagement with the natural world rather than electronic screens.  So many of us are trying to figure this shit out without having a sense of direction.  It's like we're submerged in water and it's dark, and nothing can be felt. 

I've been making it up as I go along, muddling along, since I resigned from the Matrix.  It appears to be working for my family.  But then I was able to identify the glitch when it happened, and I jumped on the opportunity to remove myself and family.  It remains precarious out there with no medical insurance or pay check (I refuse to punch a clock for meaninglessness). 

In the real world we struggle.  Now there is no shortage of real world depression to deal with.  Because we are trashing the only home we have in this infinite expanse of space.  I'm sure there are other planets out there that could support life, but we'll likely never know now that we've used up half of the petroleum energy. 

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 05:06:59 PM
Channeling Imp?

That's worse than calling the Diner a gay bar. My feelings are hurt.

No, I just was trying to clarify whether I truly am an uber doomer. Logically it makes the most sense to me...but I could easily see Doom Lite going on until the food chain finally breaks down, maybe fifty more years...

And full doom could happen during that span, as institutions break down and energy shortages occur.

We may have ALL those, right here in the FSofA, as time unfolds.

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 05:15:34 PM
I also agree with UB that there exists no will, political or otherwise, to slow down the slow motion train wreck  that is already quite well underway. Too much institutional madness in this world.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: luciddreams on January 04, 2014, 05:18:03 PM
Channeling Imp?

That's worse than calling the Diner a gay bar. My feelings are hurt.

So, for the record, I said "it would be like going to a gay bar to hook up with a heterosexual."  Now, this is an analogy...a metaphor, or simile...I can't remember...but what I know is that it works.  But then I'm comfortable enough with my sexuality to sit in a gay bar and have a good time (I've done it before...my wife was in theater in college...she's got gay friends). 

Quote
No, I just was trying to clarify whether I truly am an uber doomer. Logically it makes the most sense to me...but I could easily see Doom Lite going on until the food chain finally breaks down, maybe fifty more years...

And full doom could happen during that span, as institutions break down and energy shortages occur.

We may have ALL those, right here in the FSofA, as time unfolds.

How's that saying go?  "It's a recession when your neighbor is laid off, and a depression when you lose yours."  I think that is appropriate here.  Unless you do what I did...quit your job before you get laid off because you've identified a glitch in the Matrix. 

I think knowing that anything is possible is enough reason to be optimistic.  I think JRM might agree with that. 
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JoeP on January 04, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
Channeling Imp?

That's worse than calling the Diner a gay bar. My feelings are hurt.

No, I just was trying to clarify whether I truly am an uber doomer. Logically it makes the most sense to me...but I could easily see Doom Lite going on until the food chain finally breaks down, maybe fifty more years...

And full doom could happen during that span, as institutions break down and energy shortages occur.

We may have ALL those, right here in the FSofA, as time unfolds.

I agree with you Eddie. NOBODY really knows...well, maybe nobody - she's pretty sharp.  :icon_mrgreen:
 
I don't think even the Bilderbergers know, but I suppose when they gather amongst themselves, it's just in their genes to exhibit the utmost confidence they DO know.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 05:29:01 PM
So, for the record, I said "it would be like going to a gay bar to hook up with a heterosexual."  Now, this is an analogy...a metaphor, or simile...I can't remember...but what I know is that it works.  But then I'm comfortable enough with my sexuality to sit in a gay bar and have a good time (I've done it before...my wife was in theater in college...she's got gay friends). 

It was actually I who insinuated that the Diner COULD be a gay bar because there's never any women at the counter when i come in, but I was just kiddin'.

And I've known lots of gay people and been in lots of gay bars. I have no problem with gays, but when I was young I used to get hit on and it made me uncomfortable. I'm too much of an obvious bad-ass now to have to worry about stuff like that.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: luciddreams on January 04, 2014, 05:36:34 PM
I'm too much of an obvious bad-ass now to have to worry about stuff like that.

That's funny.  I feel like a bad-ass now when I'm wearing my cowboy boots.  They've got heels on them that are close to 2 inches.  I'm 6'4 already.  But when I put them on they fit like a glove and it felt good to walk in them.  But I thought to myself just before I settled on them, "what business do you have buying shoes that make you 2 inches taller when you're already always the tallest in the room." 

I just smiled to myself and bought them. 

You can't not feel like a bad-ass when you're wearing cowboy boots.  They're just strong footwear.  I'll likely never go back to pre-cowboy boot life.  I like feeling like a bad-ass in this world full of iphone zombies.  I make sure to walk around with my head up to.  Walking with your head down is asking to be depressed, but I think most people do that. 
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
Tony Lama deerskins are better than a concealed carry license for mojo.

Just like a beat-up pick-up truck and a baseball cap in the South are better than camo in the jungle.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 05:49:40 PM

That's funny.  I feel like a bad-ass now when I'm wearing my cowboy boots.  They've got heels on them that are close to 2 inches.  I'm 6'4 already.  But when I put them on they fit like a glove and it felt good to walk in them.  But I thought to myself just before I settled on them, "what business do you have buying shoes that make you 2 inches taller when you're already always the tallest in the room."

Dad of one of the kids on my team is 6'10".  So if I get him involved, you won't be tallest. LOL. Sadly for her, she will not last long as a gymnast if dad's genes kick in here sometime around puberty.

I think if you are outside the Matrix and have an Iconographic mindset, you find a "look" an outfit which suits you.

My "look" is the Indiana Jones thing,with the Leather Fedora, Hunting Vests, and Leather Jackets and so forth.

I'm not tall, I'm small and proud of it.  In the old days before the PAD kicked in, I was one of the most agile people you could ever find. Did you read my story about the time I slid out on my motorcycle on the Park Drive in NY Shity?  No tall person could have done what I did to come through that one alive.  Ya just cannot manipulate around a large body so fast, it's physics. That is why gymnasts are always small people.

Anyhow, you play to your strengths, and you find a "look" that fits those strengths.  It is Iconography, and there is nothing wrong with this.

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 06:15:10 PM
I'd be 6' even if I didn't have a few compressed discs, LOL. I have a brother who is 6'6", but he takes after my Dad's side of the family. I am fine boned in comparison to them.

 But it isn't just size. I cut on people for a living, while they're awake. If you can do that, and you're any good at it, it confers badass-ness eventually. In the same way working the meat wagon does.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: RE on January 04, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
But it isn't just size. I cut on people for a living, while they're awake. If you can do that, and you're any good at it, it confers badass-ness eventually. In the same way working the meat wagon does.

Indeed, you get Bad-Ass Points for doing stuff like yanking teeth from poor souls with a Toothache, no doubt there.  Sir Laurence Olivier was a SERIOUS Badass.

(http://m.cdn.blog.hu/an/antivirus/image/201206/rom1.jpg)

Do you notice Sir Laurence was BALD in this photo?  I worry about BALD Dentists! LOL.

You also get Bad Ass points for being gutsy enough to pitch yourself over a bar or throw a double back.

Jonathan Horton at the 2008 Olympics

http://www.youtube.com/v/k0P6y5BphtE?feature=player_detailpage

I've met Jonathan several times.  I am taller than he is by more than LD is taller than me.  That is one small guy.  Bad Ass for sure though.

RE
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 04, 2014, 06:39:23 PM
Baldness = testosterone+sebum = badass
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: jdwheeler42 on January 04, 2014, 08:38:10 PM
But it isn't just size. I cut on people for a living, while they're awake. If you can do that, and you're any good at it, it confers badass-ness eventually. In the same way working the meat wagon does.
I can't resist....  :evil4:
Little Shop of Horrors - Dentist Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM#)

I hope you're laughing, Eddie... if not, I apologize.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 04, 2014, 09:29:28 PM
I'm very familiar with that song. Jazz singer daughter performed in that musical a few years back.

I relate more to Doc Holliday, the consumptive alcoholic who was buddies with the Earps. Hence the cowboy boots. I'm not a Holliday, but they are cousins. Really.
Title: Tall People got NO REASON to Live
Post by: RE on January 05, 2014, 04:53:58 AM
More on the Tall vs. Small issue, Plaguing me since the days Randy Newman wrote "Short People got no reason to Live" LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/v/uFmv22ghzQw?feature=player_detailpage

Let us talk our fellow Apes.

Here is the LARGEST of the Apes.

(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/blogs/dsc-files-2011-12-gorilla-in-the-wild.jpg)

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/02/article-0-09336CAC000005DC-60_634x711.jpg)

Notice how these Big Guys of the Apes are stuck on the ground, plodding around beating their chests and so forth.

Now here are the SMALLEST of the Apes, the Gibbons, just Hanging Out and cruising the territory.

(http://cdn2.arkive.org/media/C9/C94D05FD-5690-442E-825F-9598628F0032/Presentation.Large/Family-group-of-white-bearded-gibbons.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/v/acy--k7Qww0?feature=player_detailpage

In a World of Big Gorillas, I prefer to swing above them as a Small Gibbon.  We use up less resources, we are more efficient, we are more agile with a greater Strength/Weight Ratio.

Tall People got No Reason to Live.
  Randy Newman got it backwards.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

Title: Re: The Future
Post by: luciddreams on January 05, 2014, 07:05:45 AM

 But it isn't just size. I cut on people for a living, while they're awake. If you can do that, and you're any good at it, it confers badass-ness eventually. In the same way working the meat wagon does.

Well hopefully JRM isn't a female...cause if she is we probably just ran her off talking about how much of a badass we all are  ::)   8)   :laugh:

Welcome to the Diner...it happens...and I'm the worst for thread drift.  So I apologize, but you'll find that we'll address anything you want to talk about.  It can't all be analysis however.  This is a virtual community that hangs out in the Diner pictured above.  We talk about things you might imagine people hangin' in that Diner would talk about at the end of the world and while the smoke is still clearing.  Now that I've got that out of the way.

Eddie, what you said about cutting on awake people made me think of the time I started an I.O. on a seizure patient.  We walked into the room and she was actively seizing, flopping around on the floor like a fish.  It's a bitch to get a line started on a seizure patient whom is actively seizing as you might imagine.  We do it, and often, but sometimes when your patient has shitty veins anyways, you have to just wait and keep them from bashing their brains out on the floor.  Anyways, I tried sticking her several times to no avail, my partner tried, and after a while you're just turning them into a pin cushion, but you have to get that line so that you can push some ativan and get the seizure to stop (at least stop the body from showing signs of seizure activity). 

Well we never could get a line so I had to do an I.O. which stands for intraosseous.  Now this thing is a drill, with a 2 inch needle somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 gauge (can't remember now) that you drill into the patients bone.  There are several places you can do this, but it has to be long bone and have bone marrow cause that's where the cannula goes...into the bone marrow.  In this case it was just below the tibial tuberosity  ;D

She was postictal (unconscious after seizure activity stops) when I placed that EZ IO gun on the top of her tibia and pulled the trigger.  The needle popped through the bone just fine, she didn't so much as move.  I attached the flush to it and aspirated her bone marrow and she shot off of the cot like she'd seen Satan himself and started screaming a scream like I'd never heard and haven't heard since.  She could have woke the dead.  This was my first IO.  That shit fucked my nerves up for the rest of the shift.  I just couldn't shake it for some reason.  It was the first one I'd ever done on an adult(we usually do it on pediatrics due to their small veins, and even then I'd only done a couple).  I felt guilty like I'd done it wrong.  Probably because it freaked everybody out...my partner and supervisor (she was there for some reason). 

So yeah, after that my badass emt went up a notch.  But nowhere near the several levels of badass I received after standing 30 yards from a car on the interstate with a tractor trailer on top of it.  The car burst into flames and then two of the wheels popped from the heat, and it was probably the loudest damn thing I'd ever heard.  We loaded the patients up real quick like after that and got the fuck out of there. 

Also, I find it interesting that you are related to the Holiday's Eddie.  Billy the Kids real name was Henry McCarty.  That's right...I'm related to Billy the Kid 8)  I guess that explains why I can't hack the Matrix ::)
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 05, 2014, 12:50:44 PM
I've been trained on IO.  For dental office medical emergencies, especially in children, I'm sure you can see the advantages. I don't have the kit, they're expensive. I should put one on on the prep list. I've never actually placed an IO line, though. I bow to you badass-ness..

The only two medical emergencies I've eve had in my office were both seizures. One of them was on the monitor at the time and her pulse got close to 300BPM. I just knew she was going to arrest. I just kept her airway open and breathed a little for her, and she made it okay. I had to check my shorts, however.

I have no idea if I'm actually related to the real Doc Holliday, but he spelled his name with two L's like my cousins.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: luciddreams on January 05, 2014, 01:07:52 PM
I've been trained on IO.  For dental emergencies, especially in children, I'm sure you can see the advantages. I don't have the kit, they're expensive. I should put one on on the prep list. I've never actually placed an IO line, though. I bow to you badass-ness..

What...that IO story...shiiiiiit, I've got medical emergency stories for days  O0

Quote
The only two medical emergencies I've eve had in my office were both seizures. One of them was on the monitor at the time and her pulse got close to 300BPM. I just knew she was going to arrest. I just kept her airway open and breathed a little for her, and she made it okay. I had to check my shorts, however.

Yeah 300 bpm is pushin' it a bit.  That patient would get adenosine on the truck.  I've started many lines where adenosine got pushed through.  It's wild because it temporarily stops the heart in hopes that the SV Node will take back over.  They have to be on the monitor of course.  "Okay Miss Smith, now you're gonna feel a little funny, a little light headed and woozy, but it won't last."  Then the paramedic pushes the adenosine and we watch as the patient flat lines for a few seconds as we pray that the heart starts back up.  Craziness. 

I wasn't a paramedic.  I was an EMT-Intermediate.  So I always had a paramedic partner whom was ultimately responsible for things.  I would have gotten a .25 cents per hour raise to go from an intermediate to a paramedic.  The amount of additional responsibilities, heart monitor, narcotics, pediatrics...for .25 cents an hour.  Fuck that...which is why I ultimately quit.  However, lately I've been thinking about going to paramedic school and maybe workin' one day a week.  Just to have that to fall back on.  It's 3 semesters, and I already know everything accept pharmacology.  I'd have to study that, and all the different heart rhythms, but it would be easypeasy for me. 

I just don't want the forced flu shot every year...nor the piss test.  I like the ganga...but it's not necessary.  I don't know...it's tough being a father in this world. 
 
Quote
I have no idea if I'm actually related to the real Doc Holliday, but he spelled his name with two L's like my cousins.

I've always been told by my dad's side of the family that we were related to Billy the Kid.  I just use it on my badass resume :laugh:
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 10:16:39 AM
You can set up your own self fulfilling prophesies with your own actions and your own life. If I voted neocon instead of green as my method of getting govt to act, that would be true. I would be cynical and look after number 1 that way and pollute as much as everyone else waiting for govt to act.

My gawd, if all of the amazing, brilliant, informed, educated people I've met who say "This Juggernaut will destroy everything and there's nothing we can frigging do about it" [paraphrase] were instead to think there's half a chance  we can turn it around, wow, what a force for change they would be!  Honestly, I think we have the 5-10% in the somewhat awake (not in the "Matrix") category -- even here in the overdeveloped world! Problem is, most of them seem to think our Goose Is Already Cooked. So they're not holding a vision of transformation nor working to enact or embody it.
 

Voting green and signing the odd petition are my token gestures at waiting for someone else to do it. Meanwhile our leaders argue endlessly over a 5% reduction in emissions by 2020 target is too hard on the economy. Even that insignificant bar is too high.

Electoral and policy-oriented (read, majoritarian "democratic") politics is SO last century.  The emerging 21st century "politics" is radically democratic, radically egalitarian, radically distributional of empowerment. I'd even say it's anarchistic, but most folks don't really know what that word means, and think it has to do with destruction and bomb throwing.... Read David Graeber's "The Democracy Project" and get back to me on this after. It's a good start toward clearing out the muck and nonsense that people mistake for politics or political discourse.  .... So, yes, of course you are right. Politics as usual is a dead end. But...

But how do you sell disolving into soup for the govts and economies and 100 men replacing every large tractor and harvester as the human labour replacement potential, which seems like the same thing?

In a word, micro-eutopianism. 

Quote
The word utopia was coined in Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean. The word comes from the Greek: οὐ ("not") and τόπος ("place") and means "no place". The English homophone eutopia, derived from the Greek εὖ ("good" or "well") and τόπος ("place"), means "good place". This, because of the identical pronunciation of "utopia" and "eutopia", gives rise to a double meaning.

from Wikipedia

Micro = small. Eu = good. Topia = place

The solution to dystopia is eutopia (not the perfect or ideal Utopia -- that's how most people use and understand the word "utopia" -- dismissively, as a word of derision.)

The macro world we dwell within has become dystopian. It's been more or less dystopian for the entire history of "civilization".  So we have a global dystopia. Right? It's a foul, bad place. And one of the surest ways to ensure that it stays that way is to presume that our only real chance to do anything about this Giant Dystopia is via big, great, and giant (and centralized) movements, politics, yada yada. Big actions. Big changes. --read "politics as usual".

Microeutopians don't ask for the governments approval or permission before getting stuff done -- often by doing very small things. Which add up. Especially when there are many small things done in a coordinated, intelligent way by many, many free people who are contributing only that part which is the part they WANT to contribute. Freely, voluntarily. Because they love life.

Microeutopians don't try to build political majorities in order to create social change -- because that's not how nature works. Changes in culture echo changes in natural systems -- which move or change in bits and pieces, little by little, even if those changes are rapid! Changes build upon changes -- as in a snowball effect. Or a forest fire. Microeutopians are interested in making many small or tiny changes, which they can do individually or in small groups, which add up to the creation of conditions in which yet other changes can be made. That is, they create the conditions of possibility for changes up ahead -- not entirely unlike the way a chess player tries to set up conditions of possibility in future chess board moves.

When the path forward is blocked, microeutopians either go under or around ... or otherwise create a path forward. They don't throw in the towel and walk away. They innovate. They use their imagination. They create opportunities.

And they learn from one another.

[I'm writing a book on the subject.]
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 06, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
I like that premise.  I'd like to think that my own efforts are along those lines. My experience so far tells me that most of us micro-utopians have our own unique vision of what will happen, and/or what needs to happen, over the near future. Getting us to pull TOGETHER is a problem, like herding cats.

But yes, I see lots of individuals making real efforts to change their own world, and I find that very encouraging.

But a part of me understands, too, that the hour is quite late, and that big wheels are in motion. Much of what will transpire is not really within our control at the moment. i do what I can and try not to worry about such things, but it's always there in the back of my mind.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 11:30:32 AM
[....] My experience so far tells me that most of us micro-utopians have our own unique vision of what will happen, and/or what needs to happen, over the near future. Getting us to pull TOGETHER is a problem, like herding cats.

Yes. We're incredibly diverse. And that's hardly a bad thing. Diversity enriches us, empowers us, strengthens us.

In my own version of microeutopian thinking and practice (theory and practice) we would not attempt to herd cats, because  cats are not herd animals. Likewise we'd not waste valuable resources (time, energy, effort) pushing ropes or pulling rivers.

Permaculture, ecological design, bioregionalism, the ecovillage movement, etc., are examples of microeutopian theory and practice. I'm referring to my favorite kind of micro-eutopian spirits here, which are the explicitly "green" variety.

In permaculture, design is oriented toward efficiency in terms of energy and time, etc.  (Zones & Sectors)

Efficiency is an interesting word for folks like us, 'cause we tend to know just what James H. Kunstler meant when he said (in my favorite quote of anyone, ever) "Efficiency is the shortest path to hell.")  He was referring to the kind of "efficiency" which results in strip malls and WalMart, etc. It's the same sort of "efficiency" which also results in industrial agriculture.  Its measures are the wrong measures, and they are too few.

Trying to herd cats is an outrageously inefficient use of time and energy.  So we learn from that! We learn from nature -- our first teacher. Nature says "people are diverse" and we say "Hallelujah".  What we want is the smoothest and happiest pathways to possible and delightful ends. So those of us who agree, after discussing something, on what the steps are we'd like to take, we work together with THEM. We don't cajole much and we don't corral at all.

It's the dominant culture which is unintelligent, not so much people, per se. So people often brighten up when the sparkle of real human intelligence is about. It's contagious. It feels good to be in the presence of heart linked to mind and these two linked rightly with the world. We come alive! Nobody needs pushing or pulling to see what needs doing and what's really necessary and good. Inspiration? Sure. But not pushing and pulling.

(Some of what I've just said, above, is inspired by having read David W. Orr's essay "Some Thoughts On Intelligence," from "Earth In MInd" yesterday. In this essay, Orr distinguishes cleverness from intelligence, and defines intelligence largely in terms of its relation to virtues and values which contrast with shallow and narrow utilitarianism -- and disregard for the long term. This is just the sort of thinking which permacultuists, and microeutopians generally, should appreciate.)

the hour is quite late

Yes. We're now well into the emergency time frame for awakening and transformation.  We used up almost all of the wiggle room we'd like to have. But I think we can work magic -- if only we'll use our magical intelligence (which includes the heart).
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 11:50:17 AM
Where is Diner Abbreviations ?
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 12:15:00 PM
I like that premise.  I'd like to think that my own efforts are along those lines. My experience so far tells me that most of us micro-utopians have our own unique vision of what will happen, and/or what needs to happen, over the near future. Getting us to pull TOGETHER is a problem, like herding cats.

My main purpose in writing a book on micro-eutopian thought and practice is to generate vision-sharing, theoretical discussion, sharing of know-how and know-why and know-that.

I think I'm likely to be the first social theorist to point out that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of theory-practice systems (permaculture, bioregionalism, ecovillages, guerrilla gardening...) which amount to hundreds -- or thousands -- of examples of the same thing: microeutopianism.  (This is the first time I've ever explained this theoretical insight in public!)

I'm very excited by the apparent implications of this which I have just said, above. It means we get -- now -- to begin talking amongst ourselves about what we're doing, why.... To share know-how, know-why, know that.... That is -- we are creating a discipline!  Is it a science? Not exactly, but it includes science! It has its science aspect or facet. That's mostly know-how and now-that knowledge, the science. But there is also the know-why -- which, as folks like David W. Orr and E. F. Schumacher have pointed out, tends to be ignored by "science," per se -- which, like technology, tends to imagine itself as "value-neutral".

Micro-eutopian theory/practice is explicitly value-active, not value-neutral. It makes use of science, but it has a WHY: "the good". That's philosophy. The love of wisdom.

And part of the love of wisdom is the wisdom of love. You won't find many scientists saying that. Nor technologists.

Once we begin really talking amongst ourselves, we micro-eutopians, we will discover the great virtue of our wonderful and delightful diversity! I can hardly wait!
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 06, 2014, 12:59:46 PM
Where is Diner Abbreviations ?

This is embarrassing. I don't remember where we put them. Somebody help me out here.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2014, 01:01:41 PM
JRM
Write it on recycled paper please, during the day so not to burn fossil fuels, and dont do signings involving flying all over, ok accept tickets to an interview on the Today Show or Oprah. Im herding a microutopian here ;). I applaud any effort to get more awareness out to awaken more people of the possibilities and making those realities.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 01:28:56 PM
JRM
Write it on recycled paper please, during the day so not to burn fossil fuels,


I'm almost certainly going to make it available for free online, just like Charles Eisenstein has done with some of his books -- e.g., Sacred Economics - http://sacred-economics.com/ (http://sacred-economics.com/) .  So those louzy eco-bastards who use computers  :o  ::) -- hopefully plugged into the sun -- will have a free one on me. Those who insist on having a signed first edition  :laugh: will have the option of an old-fashioned actual book, with paper and pages. I promise to make a sensitive decision on the eco-footprint regards the paper and binding.  Which is better, hemp or kenaf?  Maybe kenaf, so folks aren't tempted to smoke my book!

and dont do signings involving flying all over, ok

I doubt I'll ever fly again, and haven't in decades (with an s).  If the publisher insists I promote the book by "doing signings" (and readings) I'll offer to read in a few cities and towns along a rail route. 


Title: Re: The Future
Post by: jdwheeler42 on January 06, 2014, 01:29:28 PM
Where is Diner Abbreviations ?
http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=2143.msg38430#msg38430 (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=2143.msg38430#msg38430)
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 01:39:05 PM
Wow, I just discovered that Eisenstein's most recent book is also available for free online! Talk about walking your talk ! -- this guy is a living and breathing example of the Gift Economy which is the subject of much of his writing.

http://charleseisenstein.net/project/the-more-beautiful-world-our-hearts-know-is-possible/ (http://charleseisenstein.net/project/the-more-beautiful-world-our-hearts-know-is-possible/)
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 06, 2014, 02:05:12 PM
What a great title though...Smoke This Book.

Like Steal This Book. You probably aren't old enough to remember that one.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 06, 2014, 02:11:55 PM


I doubt I'll ever fly again, and haven't in decades (with an s).  If the publisher insists I promote the book by "doing signings" (and readings) I'll offer to read in a few cities and towns along a rail route.

Theres walking the talk, respect sir.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 06, 2014, 03:48:56 PM

Like Steal This Book. You probably aren't old enough to remember that one.

I'm old enough to have seen it in a few used book stores over the years!

Here's a title for you.: http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Roll-Me-Up-Smoke-When-Die/?isbn=9780062193643 (http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Roll-Me-Up-Smoke-When-Die/?isbn=9780062193643)
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: Eddie on January 06, 2014, 04:15:56 PM
Willie wrote a song to go with that little tome, and I recently heard him perform it at his 80th birthday party.

 2013 was a year for anniversaries. For me, forty years since I went to my first Willie Nelson picnic, and forty years  since my first ZZ Top concert.(Same event). I saw both of them again in 2013, and I'm surprised at how well all of us have held up, considering....LOL.
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 09, 2014, 10:27:36 AM
I think knowing that anything is possible is enough reason to be optimistic.  I think JRM might agree with that.

hmm...


op·ti·mism
[op-tuh-miz-uhm]
noun

1.  a disposition or tendency to look on the more favorable side of events or conditions and to expect the most favorable outcome.

2.  the belief that good ultimately predominates over evil in the world.

3.  the belief that goodness pervades reality.

4.  the doctrine that the existing world is the best of all possible worlds.


______________________

1. Nope. I certainly don't expect the most favorable outcome! I just try to remain open to the possibility and to serve that possibility when and where I can.

2. Wouldn't that be nice to believe! I don't believe it. But I try to help it be so where and when I can.

3. Goodness does pervade reality, but not necessarily as abstracted from badness.  (The classical Taoists say these two arise together. Makes sense.)

4. It's the only world nearby where I can breathe the air and not freeze or cook.  :P -- Other worlds which might possibly support my biology are at distances measured in light years away.  :(
Title: Re: The Future
Post by: JRM on January 12, 2014, 09:11:36 AM
While I'm not an optimist, by most dictionary definitions, I do believe positive social change is possible and worthy of investing one's time and other resources into. In these very cynical times, I guess that makes me some kind of "optimist".