Doomstead Diner Menu => Economics => Topic started by: RE on July 05, 2014, 10:42:05 PM

Title: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 05, 2014, 10:42:05 PM
Graham Summers of Capital research is a regular contributor to ZH, and a regular predictor of Financial Doom as well.  His schtick is how you need to set up your portfolio for Doomsday.
 
In his latest piece below, Graham talks about how TPTB will come after anyone with financial assets over around $200K, striking FEAR into the Heart of every 1%er out there.

The idea here is, TPTB will do anything and everything they can to try to keep the financial system floating another day, and if that means they have to confiscate the paper wealth of 99.9% of the people with some money in the bank, they will do so.

While worrisome to the 1% crowd out there, this is probably not quite so worrisome to the .01% with wealth measured in $Billions$.  These folks are "Key Men", and though they may take a Haircut at the beginning, they won't lose it ALL.

For the average Millionaire though without the ability to sequester money in Tax Havens and the like, there is a likely chance your money will be confiscated along with the Pension Funds of J6P.

Who besides the Billionaires does NOT have anything to worry about here in such a scenario?  The 50% or more of people with either ZERO money in the bank or in Graham's analysis, less than $200K. If you go up that far, this is probably 90% of the population of the FSoA.

Anybody with a net worth BELOW $200K should be IN FAVOR of such a Haircut. Nothing to lose here for them.   So on a Democratic Level, one would expect this to be quite popular.  Not too popular an idea on Zero Hedge of course.

I will not be surprised at all if such means are undertaken to try to salvage the financial system.  I would be surprised if it actually WORKED.

The issue here is probably 99% of the Assets that will be confiscated are various forms of Irredeemable Debt.    After they Repo these Bonds and Corporate Paper you have in your Portfolio, who will they sell them to?  Certainly nobody will buy them at par, and why would the .01% buy them even for pennies on the dollar?

The deal here is of course is that such a confiscation won't Zero Out anybody's debt, certainly not the Trillions in debt of the FSoA Goobermint.  In fact, even confiscating the wealth of the .01% won't do that.  However, on the way down the Toilet here, the folks to get flushed first are those who still have some money, but little to no power as far as Da Goobermint is concerned.

If you are amongst those in the population with maybe 2 months of bills in the bank, you have little to worry about here that you are not already worried about.  If confiscating the "Wealth" of 1% of the population will keep the Banking System floating another day so you can still access your 2 months of savings, this is GOOD for you.  The worse outcome is where the whole system crashes at once and NOBODY gets out alive.

In the end, even confiscation won't work, since the resource deficit relative to population size is so great.  However, it remains a likely possibility in the spin down, so if you have assets in $200K+ territory, it's pretty likely the Tax Man Barber will arrive soon to give you a Haircut.

RE

When the Defaults Come, So Will the Wealth Grab


Submitted by Phoenix Capital Research on 07/04/2014 15:56 -0400


The biggest problem with the epic Central Bank rig of the last five years is that propping up a bankrupt financial system by printing money only works for so long.

 

The reason for this is that no one, whether it be a country, company, or person, can defy mathematics.

 

A loan can be extended, it can be restructured, or it can be finagled in countless financial ways. But at the end of the day, if your creditors lost faith in your ability to repay it… it’s GAME OVER.

 

History has shown many times that countries try to inflate their debts away until the inevitable restructuring occurs. As Argentina is now showing us, when the “D” word becomes palpable, markets move quickly.

 

Anyone who is truly concerned about their wealth in the coming years needs to assess what has happened in Europe: higher taxes on top earnings and bail-ins (meaning your bank deposits are raided to fund bank bailouts).

 

Indeed, the IMF recently proposed a “global wealth tax” to “restore debt suatainability.”

 

Here’s the critical quote:

 

Recurrent taxes on net wealth (assets less liabilities) have been declining in Europe over the last 15 years (repealers include Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, and Sweden). But this may be changing: Iceland and Spain reintroduced the tax during the crisis, and it is now actively discussed elsewhere. (There has been interest, too, in the possibility of a one-off wealth tax to restore debt sustainability, taken up in Box 6.)

 

The revenue potential is subject to considerable uncertainty (related, for instance, to the valuation of real estate) but is in principle sizable. Based on Luxembourg Wealth Study data, a 1 percent tax on the net wealth of the top 10 percent of households could, in principle, raise about 1 percent of GDP per year…

 

TAKEN FROM PAGE 49

 

The sharp deterioration of the public finances in many countries has revived interest in a “capital levy”—a one-off tax on private wealth—as an exceptional measure to restore debt sustainability.1 The appeal is that such a tax, if it is implemented before avoidance is possible and there is a belief that it will never be repeated, does not distort behavior (and may be seen by some as fair)

 

TAKEN FROM PAGE 59

 

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fm/2013/02/pdf/fm1302.pdf (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fm/2013/02/pdf/fm1302.pdf)

 

Anyone who has assets worth over $200,000 should note that the Governments of the world WILL be coming for your money to prop up the insolvent banks. And they’re going to be taking MORE instead of less.

 

Indeed, in the case of Cyprus, the proposed wealth tax of 7% of all deposits over €100,000 quickly rose to an incredible 47%!  Those individuals whose deposits were seized received equity in the banks themselves.

 

This scheme has been used in Spain multiple times… though the press has yet to note that when the banks FAIL, that equity is worth ZERO.

 

Cyprus has since released some of these funds though they are subject to capital controls (READ: YOU CANNOT GET YOUR MONEY OUT OF THE COUNTRY).

 

So…

 

1)   Cyprus staged a bail-in, froze accounts, and took 47% of wealth over the first €100,000.

2)   EU Finance ministers announced this policy will be a “template” for bailouts going forward.

3)   The IMF hints that a global wealth tax might be a good thing.

 

Connect the dots...
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 06, 2014, 05:19:36 AM
I'm always amused at the e-mails I get from some of these financial experts who want to tell me how to protect my "wealth" as the system falls apart.  What that tells me is that these guys have not yet come to terms with what is really happening and that their "wealth" will be worth little to nothing once the dust settles and that includes the gold and silver crowd as well.  Their "wealth" is only of use as long as the power stays on and the oil/coal/steel and other metals keep flowing.  Once that stops, food, water, lead, brass, blued steel and gun propellent will be the new wealth and since one can only stockpile so much of that we will see a somewhat more level playing field after a few months when all those wealthy people go the great beyond because they don't have the skills to adapt to the world they find themselves in. It is going to be an exciting time that is for sure....
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 06, 2014, 05:37:02 AM
I'm always amused at the e-mails I get from some of these financial experts who want to tell me how to protect my "wealth" as the system falls apart.  What that tells me is that these guys have not yet come to terms with what is really happening and that their "wealth" will be worth little to nothing once the dust settles and that includes the gold and silver crowd as well.  Their "wealth" is only of use as long as the power stays on and the oil/coal/steel and other metals keep flowing.  Once that stops, food, water, lead, brass, blued steel and gun propellent will be the new wealth and since one can only stockpile so much of that we will see a somewhat more level playing field after a few months when all those wealthy people go the great beyond because they don't have the skills to adapt to the world they find themselves in. It is going to be an exciting time that is for sure....

Yes, an exciting time indeed. No more wealthy folks except for those with the wisdom to store the new REAL wealth such as you RandyC. A wonderful level playing field as you say with folks running around with their blue steel, lead, and gun propellant and water bottles.

I can hardly wait. No more friggin wealthy people, no power, no law and order.  Just a new world with everyone equal like back in the Stone Age.  Exciting time indeed RandyC and exciting time for sure.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 06, 2014, 06:11:12 AM

In his latest piece below, Graham talks about how TPTB will come after anyone with financial assets over around $200K, striking FEAR into the Heart of every 1%er out there.

The idea here is, TPTB will do anything and everything they can to try to keep the financial system floating another day, and if that means they have to confiscate the paper wealth of 99.9% of the people with some money in the bank, they will do so.

While worrisome to the 1% crowd out there, this is probably not quite so worrisome to the .01% with wealth measured in $Billions$.  These folks are "Key Men", and though they may take a Haircut at the beginning, they won't lose it ALL.

For the average Millionaire though without the ability to sequester money in Tax Havens and the like, there is a likely chance your money will be confiscated along with the Pension Funds of J6P.

Who besides the Billionaires does NOT have anything to worry about here in such a scenario?  The 50% or more of people with either ZERO money in the bank or in Graham's analysis, less than $200K. If you go up that far, this is probably 90% of the population of the FSoA.

Anybody with a net worth BELOW $200K should be IN FAVOR of such a Haircut. Nothing to lose here for them.   So on a Democratic Level, one would expect this to be quite popular.  Not too popular an idea on Zero Hedge of course.


While normally anything is that disquiets the upper 1/10 of 1% would be a good thing in my book, I have to think that in this country, the plutocrat lobby will create some exotic new laws that have the net effect of going after 401(k) savings first. You see, too many people in this country own their own homes  as well as a handful of other assets. I'd be surprised if "we" go after the 1% before J6P has been reduced to utter serfdom.

While the mental image of one per centers squealing like so many stuck pigs is good for my daily dose of schadenfreude,  ever remember that the only people who really matter in such a scenario are the "Key Men" you reference above.  Those are the people in the lifeboat; all the rest of us are dispensable.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 06, 2014, 06:15:58 AM
I'm always amused at the e-mails I get from some of these financial experts who want to tell me how to protect my "wealth" as the system falls apart.  What that tells me is that these guys have not yet come to terms with what is really happening and that their "wealth" will be worth little to nothing once the dust settles and that includes the gold and silver crowd as well.  Their "wealth" is only of use as long as the power stays on and the oil/coal/steel and other metals keep flowing.  Once that stops, food, water, lead, brass, blued steel and gun propellent will be the new wealth and since one can only stockpile so much of that we will see a somewhat more level playing field after a few months when all those wealthy people go the great beyond because they don't have the skills to adapt to the world they find themselves in. It is going to be an exciting time that is for sure....
Precious metals after TSHTF:

(http://www.swordsknivesanddaggers.com/kas/Japanese_Shinobi_440_Stainless_Steel_Knife_Set_1.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zaMIxtmf1kA/TAc1rUcj4fI/AAAAAAAABAw/Z3vr3fx__0w/s1600/Solid+Brass+Knuckle+Duster+brass+knuckles+WeaponCollector+homemade+home+made+hand+handmade+weaponcollector+custom+(11).JPG)

(http://www.wildfowlmag.com/files/2011/12/Lead-shot.jpg)

(http://www.walkerssos.com/~nexthunt/WalkersSOS.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/bolts_arrows.jpg)
[/list]
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 06, 2014, 06:47:57 AM
Surly, JD, you two are just too funny....  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 06, 2014, 06:53:33 AM
Surly, JD, you two are just too funny....  :icon_mrgreen:

We're here all week. Try the veal, and tip your waitresses…

 JD at least has the virtue of being correct.

Want to hedge for the future? Be long potatoes.  Or rice and beans.

Amassing a store of gold will have the virtue of making you a target.  And it couldn't happen to nicer people.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 06, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
Surly, JD, you two are just too funny....  :icon_mrgreen:

We're here all week. Try the veal, and tip your waitresses…

 JD at least has the virtue of being correct.

Want to hedge for the future? Be long potatoes.  Or rice and beans.

Amassing a store of gold will have the virtue of making you a target.  And it couldn't happen to nicer people.

That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

                                                 (http://static.cinepollo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/007_goldfinger_1964-2-1024x611.jpg)
           
                                                   All I Ever Needed Was a Few Sacks of Spuds  ;D :D
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 06, 2014, 02:13:35 PM

While normally anything is that disquiets the upper 1/10 of 1% would be a good thing in my book, I have to think that in this country, the plutocrat lobby will create some exotic new laws that have the net effect of going after 401(k) savings first. You see, too many people in this country own their own homes  as well as a handful of other assets. I'd be surprised if "we" go after the 1% before J6P has been reduced to utter serfdom.

While the mental image of one per centers squealing like so many stuck pigs is good for my daily dose of schadenfreude,  ever remember that the only people who really matter in such a scenario are the "Key Men" you reference above.  Those are the people in the lifeboat; all the rest of us are dispensable.

As I have mentioned before, McMansions are not Assets, they are liabilities.

Pension Funds are invested in stuff like Facepalm, PoopOn and Municipal Bonds.  They are basically worthless.

I do expect a confiscation of many perceived assets, but I don't think it will work very long to salvage the system once the cascade begins in earnest.

What is getting interesting is that the talk of "De-dollarization" is spreading, now the Frogs have picked up the Banner with Vlad the Impaler and the Chinese.  The Financial WWIII game is picking up just as fast as the physical one, if not faster.

The biggest real asset left in the Industrial Economy are what's left of the Oil in the ground and the refineries and transport system for this stuff.  This of course is what the big boys are fighting for control over.  He who controls this is the one that can issue the credit to buy it.  That credit obviously does not have to be in dollars.

NATO does appear to be losing control over MENA on the regional rather than nation-state level now.  If ISIS will take Renminby for Oil rather than Dollars and there is no convertability, then you would have a mighty crash indeed.  However, with what will the Chinese buy Food with from the FSoA?

The Big Show is underway here now.

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 06, 2014, 02:27:27 PM

While normally anything is that disquiets the upper 1/10 of 1% would be a good thing in my book, I have to think that in this country, the plutocrat lobby will create some exotic new laws that have the net effect of going after 401(k) savings first. You see, too many people in this country own their own homes  as well as a handful of other assets. I'd be surprised if "we" go after the 1% before J6P has been reduced to utter serfdom.

While the mental image of one per centers squealing like so many stuck pigs is good for my daily dose of schadenfreude,  ever remember that the only people who really matter in such a scenario are the "Key Men" you reference above.  Those are the people in the lifeboat; all the rest of us are dispensable.

As I have mentioned before, McMansions are not Assets, they are liabilities.

Pension Funds are invested in stuff like Facepalm, PoopOn and Municipal Bonds.  They are basically worthless.

I do expect a confiscation of many perceived assets, but I don't think it will work very long to salvage the system once the cascade begins in earnest.

What is getting interesting is that the talk of "De-dollarization" is spreading, now the Frogs have picked up the Banner with Vlad the Impaler and the Chinese.  The Financial WWIII game is picking up just as fast as the physical one, if not faster.

The biggest real asset left in the Industrial Economy are what's left of the Oil in the ground and the refineries and transport system for this stuff.  This of course is what the big boys are fighting for control over.  He who controls this is the one that can issue the credit to buy it.  That credit obviously does not have to be in dollars.

NATO does appear to be losing control over MENA on the regional rather than nation-state level now.  If ISIS will take Renminby for Oil rather than Dollars and there is no convertability, then you would have a mighty crash indeed.  However, with what will the Chinese buy Food with from the FSoA?

The Big Show is underway here now.

RE

Things are cascading out of control, and rather quickly in my view as well. To say I sense a horror developing is an understatement for sure.

Our MSM is treating this stuff as a side show, what else is new, but it has the acrid smell of war and economic trouble simultaneously fouling the air.

What is going on in the minds of Israel and Saudi Arabia as well for a few more loose cannons or wild cards to mull over?

Read Mr Kunstler's latest for more on this interested Diners.  http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/30/voila-world-war-three/ (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/30/voila-world-war-three/)   :icon_study: :icon_study: :'(
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 06, 2014, 03:10:49 PM

Things are cascading out of control, and rather quickly in my view as well. To say I sense a horror developing is an understatement for sure.

Our MSM is treating this stuff as a side show, what else is new, but it has the acrid smell of war and economic trouble simultaneously fouling the air.

What is going on in the minds of Israel and Saudi Arabia as well for a few more loose cannons or wild cards to mull over?


It's definitely spreading fast now. I'm turning this thread into a rant as we speak.

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 06, 2014, 03:28:33 PM

Things are cascading out of control, and rather quickly in my view as well. To say I sense a horror developing is an understatement for sure.

Our MSM is treating this stuff as a side show, what else is new, but it has the acrid smell of war and economic trouble simultaneously fouling the air.

What is going on in the minds of Israel and Saudi Arabia as well for a few more loose cannons or wild cards to mull over?


It's definitely spreading fast now. I'm turning this thread into a rant as we speak.

RE

While realizing you are on the left RE, please don't leave out the total ass holes we have at the helm right now in your rant.

Yes Agreed Bush and Cheney were total ass holes as well.

These people are totally fucking clueless. They have nothing on their petty minds but the upcoming elections. Totally incompetent and lost.  :( :( :-\ :exp-angry:

This Kerry should be running a lemonade stand on the White House Lawn.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 06, 2014, 03:42:02 PM

Things are cascading out of control, and rather quickly in my view as well. To say I sense a horror developing is an understatement for sure.

Our MSM is treating this stuff as a side show, what else is new, but it has the acrid smell of war and economic trouble simultaneously fouling the air.

What is going on in the minds of Israel and Saudi Arabia as well for a few more loose cannons or wild cards to mull over?


It's definitely spreading fast now. I'm turning this thread into a rant as we speak.

RE

While realizing you are on the left RE, please don't leave out the total ass holes we have at the helm right now in your rant.

Yes Agreed Bush and Cheney were total ass holes as well.

These people are totally fucking clueless. They have nothing on their petty minds but the upcoming elections. Totally incompetent and lost.  :( :( :-\ :exp-angry:

This Kerry should be running a lemonade stand on the White House Lawn.

The rant is rather apolitical in terms of Left-Right, Rep-Dem Blame Game goes.  It's more economic in nature.

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 06, 2014, 04:10:22 PM
Quote
The rant is rather apolitical in terms of Left-Right, Rep-Dem Blame Game goes.  It's more economic in nature.

RE

Was referring to their inability to act in decisive statesmanship demeanor.  Asserting leadership, utilizing diplomacy, comprehending, analyzing and producing something coherent and productive rather than this sanctions nonsense, and as JHK say's even analyze what were are doing meddling in the first place, before adding to the flames. Blame was not on my mind but inability to do something constructive and positive rather than make it worse.

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: MKing on July 06, 2014, 04:27:51 PM
As I have mentioned before, McMansions are not Assets, they are liabilities.

Depends on how much you owe on it I imagine, and what it is worth. Certainly this doesn't work as a blanket statement as long as you can sell it. And folks certainly are. Of course, you have to live in some areas with the proper economic mix capable of buying such properties, might be difficult to sell 7 figure homes in rural Kentucky.

Quote from: RE
Pension Funds are invested in stuff like Facepalm, PoopOn and Municipal Bonds.  They are basically worthless.

Mine aren't. So obviously not ALL pension funds fit your generalization. And as long as I can sell the stock in the companies or bonds mentioned, of course they aren't worthless. This one you can prove for yourself…collect one tomorrow…put it up for sale next week. Guess what….it will sell for some amount, you might make a little, or lose a little, but they are certainly worth something. Just as they have been for…well…as long as you've been alive.

I recommend staying away from playing this game in politically unstable areas, might not work out so well.

Quote from: RE
I do expect a confiscation of many perceived assets, but I don't think it will work very long to salvage the system once the cascade begins in earnest.

LATOC expected the same, along with a draft, Fedghettos, all the usual doomer stuff. Didn't happen then. You don't believe it now, but I understand your specialty as of late is in sales, and you and i know how sales works….certainly it doesn't have much to do with reality or facts, but perception, fear, guiding the fear in a direction to your advantage, etc etc.

Quote from: RE
What is getting interesting is that the talk of "De-dollarization" is spreading, now the Frogs have picked up the Banner with Vlad the Impaler and the Chinese.  The Financial WWIII game is picking up just as fast as the physical one, if not faster.

Remember when the Iranians were forever opening an oil bourse? Yeah…such things are certainly neat, and hopefully they will happen sooner rather than later. The US wins games of economic and military competition, and it is hard to even TRY without others around to push against.

Quote from: RE

The Big Show is underway here now.

RE

Yeah, LATOC ran around claiming that as well. But to say it nowadays…might be because you didn't jump into the stock market with both feet after the LAST claims of gloom and doom? Does wonders for one's net worth, you should give it a whirl…of course, what with the market highs and whatnot, you need to wait until this "underway" really IS, and I don't mean just a little, but a BUNCH…so that the herd bolts. Claiming its "underway" during all time stock market highs isn't useful at all, but good luck to you. Carve 8000 points out of the market, get everyone on your side, and then you, me and Eddie's wife can ALL make a mint on the next cycle.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 06, 2014, 05:15:36 PM
From GO:

"Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish.  "

Oh, GO, don't take it so hard, gold and silver were just the thing... before the oil age, then the world changed and even Nixon couldn't resist cutting the dollar loose from a real gold backing. What gold did then was keep the government from printing too much money, and look where that has gotten us!!!  If only they had stuck to that worthless shinny metal that would have kept economic growth in check...

Now here we are nearing the end of the game, and you are right, it will be exciting, but don't think for one second that I favor that outcome.  I simply report it and then accept it and try to deal with it.  Stockpile gold?  Why?  I don't want it... Stockpile food, tools, boots, farm stuff?  Yup, that's what people will come for.  Don't think I don't know that, they will come, there are a half million people living within 50 miles of my little farm.  Come they will, like locust and they will eat everything in their path!

No, not going to stay, had a showing today, hope to see an offer soon.  I'm selling my little farm so I can go off to some far away place with cold winters and a short growing season, maybe to be RE's neighbor or somewhere else.  People might think these mountain valleys of southwest Virginia are defensible, and in a military sense they are but from looters and gangs of people that spill out of the cities?  No, I can't grow food, cut firewood, milk cows and make cheese and guard this place at the same time. 

Oh, and did I mention what the changing climate will do to farming in this country?

I'm really not looking forward to the world ahead.

So, GO, get that gold, keep Pussy Galore happy and enjoy your life.  Times are a changing, changing fast.
Title: Wealth Confiscation & Destruction Rant...
Post by: RE on July 06, 2014, 05:17:55 PM
Now IN THE CAN!

I'll get it up in the next hour or two.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Wealth Confiscation & Destruction Rant...
Post by: Randy C on July 06, 2014, 05:20:38 PM
Now IN THE CAN!

I'll get it up in the next hour or two.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

Happy to have helped with this rant.  Off to milk the dairy girls, look forward to hearing your rant!
RC
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 06, 2014, 05:23:11 PM
From GO:

"Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish.  "

Oh, GO, don't take it so hard, gold and silver were just the thing... before the oil age, then the world changed and even Nixon couldn't resist cutting the dollar loose from a real gold backing. What gold did then was keep the government from printing too much money, and look where that has gotten us!!!  If only they had stuck to that worthless shinny metal that would have kept economic growth in check...

Now here we are nearing the end of the game, and you are right, it will be exciting, but don't think for one second that I favor that outcome.  I simply report it and then accept it and try to deal with it.  Stockpile gold?  Why?  I don't want it... Stockpile food, tools, boots, farm stuff?  Yup, that's what people will come for.  Don't think I don't know that, they will come, there are a half million people living within 50 miles of my little farm.  Come they will, like locust and they will eat everything in their path!

No, not going to stay, had a showing today, hope to see an offer soon.  I'm selling my little farm so I can go off to some far away place with cold winters and a short growing season, maybe to be RE's neighbor or somewhere else.  People might think these mountain valleys of southwest Virginia are defensible, and in a military sense they are but from looters and gangs of people that spill out of the cities?  No, I can't grow food, cut firewood, milk cows and make cheese and guard this place at the same time. 

Oh, and did I mention what the changing climate will do to farming in this country?

I'm really not looking forward to the world ahead.

So, GO, get that gold, keep Pussy Galore happy and enjoy your life.  Times are a changing, changing fast.

After you get that farm sold, you gotta hook up with LD & WHD & Roamer and get the SUNstead going.

Glacier View looked like a pretty good spot...

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 07, 2014, 02:26:10 AM
Surly, JD, you two are just too funny....  :icon_mrgreen:

We're here all week. Try the veal, and tip your waitresses…

 JD at least has the virtue of being correct.

Want to hedge for the future? Be long potatoes.  Or rice and beans.

Amassing a store of gold will have the virtue of making you a target.  And it couldn't happen to nicer people.

That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

Hi Golden Shower,

Always nice to see you raise yourself from between MKing's legs to post up some of that ineffable libertard wisdom you used to be famous for, before leaving with your master to preside over the coprophilia board.

Enjoy your gold. I hope it keeps you warm at night. Slice up a bar and fry it up with some eggs when times get tough.

(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/1619232_595413033883679_1292520260_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 07, 2014, 03:19:42 AM
@Golden Retriever,

Duly noted and filed.

 :icon_mrgreen:

(http://www.toonpool.com/user/1233/files/goldfinger_440695.jpg)
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 06:04:58 AM
From GO:

"Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish.  "

Oh, GO, don't take it so hard, gold and silver were just the thing... before the oil age, then the world changed and even Nixon couldn't resist cutting the dollar loose from a real gold backing. What gold did then was keep the government from printing too much money, and look where that has gotten us!!!  If only they had stuck to that worthless shinny metal that would have kept economic growth in check...

Now here we are nearing the end of the game, and you are right, it will be exciting, but don't think for one second that I favor that outcome.  I simply report it and then accept it and try to deal with it.  Stockpile gold?  Why?  I don't want it... Stockpile food, tools, boots, farm stuff?  Yup, that's what people will come for.  Don't think I don't know that, they will come, there are a half million people living within 50 miles of my little farm.  Come they will, like locust and they will eat everything in their path!

No, not going to stay, had a showing today, hope to see an offer soon.  I'm selling my little farm so I can go off to some far away place with cold winters and a short growing season, maybe to be RE's neighbor or somewhere else.  People might think these mountain valleys of southwest Virginia are defensible, and in a military sense they are but from looters and gangs of people that spill out of the cities?  No, I can't grow food, cut firewood, milk cows and make cheese and guard this place at the same time. 

Oh, and did I mention what the changing climate will do to farming in this country?

I'm really not looking forward to the world ahead.

So, GO, get that gold, keep Pussy Galore happy and enjoy your life.  Times are a changing, changing fast.

After you get that farm sold, you gotta hook up with LD & WHD & Roamer and get the SUNstead going.

Glacier View looked like a pretty good spot...

RE

Yes, Glacier View looks interesting.  Thanks for posting the July 4th festivities, looking forward to visiting.
Randy
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 07, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

Hi Golden Shower,

Always nice to see you raise yourself from between MKing's legs to post up some of that ineffable libertard wisdom you used to be famous for, before leaving with your master to preside over the coprophilia board.

Enjoy your gold. I hope it keeps you warm at night. Slice up a bar and fry it up with some eggs when times get tough.
C'mon, Surly, GO, play nice....  GO was just being a little sarcastic, you don't have to go ballistic on him, Surly....

What you're missing, GO, is it's not an either/or proposition.  FIRST one should make sure one's necessities are covered, THEN make sure one have the means to defend then, and FINALLY put one's excess wealth into gold and silver.  Okay if someone is very poor they might have to choose, but right now the best return on one's investment is food.  It still is an incredible bargain that one can buy enough calories for a year in bulk grains working less than a week at a minimum wage job.  And it's better to risk having someone take one's food than trying to take food from someone else and finding that no one has any.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 07, 2014, 07:16:04 AM
That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

Hi Golden Shower,

Always nice to see you raise yourself from between MKing's legs to post up some of that ineffable libertard wisdom you used to be famous for, before leaving with your master to preside over the coprophilia board.

Enjoy your gold. I hope it keeps you warm at night. Slice up a bar and fry it up with some eggs when times get tough.
C'mon, Surly, GO, play nice....

What you're missing, GO, is it's not an either/or proposition.  FIRST make sure your necessities are covered, THEN make sure you have the means to defend then, and FINALLY put your excess wealth into gold and silver.  Okay if you're very poor you might have to choose, but right now the best return on your investment is food.  It still is an incredible bargain that you can buy enough calories for a year in bulk grains working less than a week at a minimum wage job.  And it's better to risk having someone take your food than trying to take food from someone else and finding that no one has any.

You are an awful nice person JD and you are only trying to be helpful; however, you miss the point entirely.

I don't appreciate being lumped in with the other guy as not being nice, as you say either. Please JD, before you shoot your mouth off read for comprehension for who is being nice.

Your admonition of me in your posting without reference to your controlling Admin also is quit annoying to me.

Peace my friend, read for comprehension and please cmon and be fair.

My response to the episode has been censored as well, and as far as food goes, I have over 10 grand worth of it in storage, including a ten year supply of various canned fish which was discussed at length in my previous postings on the Diner. Please JD, understand whom you are talking too, an ass perhaps but not an imbecile.  :exp-angry:

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 08:21:52 AM
That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

Hi Golden Shower,

Always nice to see you raise yourself from between MKing's legs to post up some of that ineffable libertard wisdom you used to be famous for, before leaving with your master to preside over the coprophilia board.

Enjoy your gold. I hope it keeps you warm at night. Slice up a bar and fry it up with some eggs when times get tough.
C'mon, Surly, GO, play nice....  GO was just being a little sarcastic, you don't have to go ballistic on him, Surly....

What you're missing, GO, is it's not an either/or proposition.  FIRST one should make sure one's necessities are covered, THEN make sure one have the means to defend then, and FINALLY put one's excess wealth into gold and silver.  Okay if someone is very poor they might have to choose, but right now the best return on one's investment is food.  It still is an incredible bargain that one can buy enough calories for a year in bulk grains working less than a week at a minimum wage job.  And it's better to risk having someone take one's food than trying to take food from someone else and finding that no one has any.

I took GO's comments to be a little annoyed but still tongue and check as the saying goes, so I'm good with that. 

JD, you are very right, it is not an either or proposition.  I don't care if people have gold, that is their call.  I never had the money to buy such stuff even when I worked for Uncle Sam.  Thinking back about that, one of my early revelations was when I realized that with my wife and I working full time in Northern VA, we could only afford a small ranch in Fredericksburg, and could only afford one child.  My parents worked full time, dad was a street sweeper (got that job in 1932!) and my mom was a Med Tech.  They had a similar home and put three boys through school and had a good retirement as well. 

By the time I was 35 I realized that I would have to work until I was 75 to have that golden retirement and by the time I reached 45 I said I had had enough of the US GOV and was not willing to spend another 30 years there so I could then sit in "the home" for my final five or ten years.

So, no I am not one of those $200,000 who will take a haircut.  I was before I bought this farm and started doing this.  My son likes to say that the key to making a small fortune in farming is to start with a large one!

Going back to haircuts I think they will filter down soon enough.  This property has already fallen in value from $360,000 to $300,000 and that is not what I have been offered.  It will probably be less.  We could stay here and just keep working but I know that it is only a matter of time before the next crisis hits (either personal or national) and the average person that likes high quality food won't have the money to buy our products and then the next thing that will happen is the sheriff's auction.  Best to take Nicole Foss' advise and get out while you can with what you can.

When it is all said and done, not many will be sitting pretty.  Food and fresh water are the new gold and without fresh water farming comes to an end in CA and on the high plains no matter how much oil is sloshing around under the ground.  So, maybe MKing can tell us how the Ogallala aquifer can be refilled in a timely fashion, as well as Lake Mead....
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: MKing on July 07, 2014, 09:33:24 AM
  So, maybe MKing can tell us how the Ogallala aquifer can be refilled in a timely fashion, as well as Lake Mead....

On timescales that matter to humans, the flow of the Colorado will be what it is. No chance of recharge in the Ogallala at those time scales.

The answer is again contained within Econ 101, and the organizations and systems that make the basic lessons of economics work.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/national/programs/?cid=stelprdb1048809 (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/national/programs/?cid=stelprdb1048809)

Fortunately, as with oil and natural gas, the issue within any of our lifetimes isn't about running out, or even peaking. Water resources are far more abundant than oil and gas resources, they just aren't all sitting right where humans might hope. As with the original flood control on the Colorado, it becomes an issue of how much are you willing to pay to get it. They actually built desalinization plants along the California coast before....and then turned them off and let them rust...not needing the product. Certainly they may need to turn them back on. Depends on the intersection of those pesky supply and demand curves. Again.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: g on July 07, 2014, 09:39:04 AM
Quote
I took GO's comments to be a little annoyed but still tongue and check as the saying goes, so I'm good with that. 

Hi RandyC. It's a pleasure debating with you and becoming acquainted with you and your most interesting circumstance of being a real farmer.

Try an understand in a nutshell that we are on the same wave length with a difference in timing being our major difference it appears. While seeing the big trouble ahead that you do, my feeling is there will be much and serious inflation from today onwards, long before  the total breakdown occurs, if it does at all.

My buying of Gold is to try and protect myself  from the current and perceived inflation I think is coming before that dreaded arrival of the Apocalypse.. Guess I am what you call a slow doomer or light doomer  as we say on the Diner. I also hold out some hope for our future, probably because of my lovely grandchildren, so I am prejudiced. It is a belief of mine that there are some very extremely smart, constructive members of the human race, I certainly am not one of them, that have the ability to solve problems such as climate change and a weening from fossil fuels and our polluting ways.

We are also on the same wave when it comes to Nicole Foss, much of my food storage tendencies come from her wise council. Right or wrong she is certainly a brilliant well intentioned person as is her business partner Ilargi. You never will go wrong taking some advice or precautions from those two.

My sarcastic remarks from your posting came about only because of my frustration at your thinking I could possible think a Gold coin was going to do me any good on Doomsday, the day the whole system finally unravels. Gold is a financial monetary asset, not food, shelter, or water, let alone a gun.

Perhaps if you knew how many total and complete ass holes have told me you can't eat Gold over the past decades you would understand better my dismay and irritation.

Good luck with the farm and getting your price, the economy might be getting a bit better so perhaps you will get out OK. It is a pleasure talking with you.  GO

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 10:00:12 AM
  So, maybe MKing can tell us how the Ogallala aquifer can be refilled in a timely fashion, as well as Lake Mead....

On timescales that matter to humans, the flow of the Colorado will be what it is. No chance of recharge in the Ogallala at those time scales.

The answer is again contained within Econ 101, and the organizations and systems that make the basic lessons of economics work.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/national/programs/?cid=stelprdb1048809 (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/national/programs/?cid=stelprdb1048809)

Fortunately, as with oil and natural gas, the issue within any of our lifetimes isn't about running out, or even peaking. Water resources are far more abundant than oil and gas resources, they just aren't all sitting right where humans might hope. As with the original flood control on the Colorado, it becomes an issue of how much are you willing to pay to get it. They actually built desalinization plants along the California coast before....and then turned them off and let them rust...not needing the product. Certainly they may need to turn them back on. Depends on the intersection of those pesky supply and demand curves. Again.

Oh dear, your quoting the NRCS....
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 07, 2014, 10:11:58 AM
That certainly sounds logical, wish I had been wise enough to figure it out.

Don't hoard Gold because it will make you a target since that is what they come for, the worthless Gold. Plus you will have deserved it being a low life Gold Bug.

Hoard a sack of potatoes instead. That's the way to go. It ain't worth dick, a sack of potatoes, so they won't target  you and you will be one of the good guys as well.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Makes me feel so foolish. 

Hi Golden Shower,

Always nice to see you raise yourself from between MKing's legs to post up some of that ineffable libertard wisdom you used to be famous for, before leaving with your master to preside over the coprophilia board.

Enjoy your gold. I hope it keeps you warm at night. Slice up a bar and fry it up with some eggs when times get tough.
C'mon, Surly, GO, play nice....

What you're missing, GO, is it's not an either/or proposition.  FIRST make sure your necessities are covered, THEN make sure you have the means to defend then, and FINALLY put your excess wealth into gold and silver.  Okay if you're very poor you might have to choose, but right now the best return on your investment is food.  It still is an incredible bargain that you can buy enough calories for a year in bulk grains working less than a week at a minimum wage job.  And it's better to risk having someone take your food than trying to take food from someone else and finding that no one has any.

You are an awful nice person JD and you are only trying to be helpful; however, you miss the point entirely.

I don't appreciate being lumped in with the other guy as not being nice, as you say either. Please JD, before you shoot your mouth off read for comprehension for who is being nice.

Your admonition of me in your posting without reference to your controlling Admin also is quit annoying to me.

Peace my friend, read for comprehension and please cmon and be fair.

My response to the episode has been censored as well, and as far as food goes, I have over 10 grand worth of it in storage, including a ten year supply of various canned fish which was discussed at length in my previous postings on the Diner. Please JD, understand whom you are talking too, an ass perhaps but not an imbecile.  :exp-angry:

The reason GO's post was censored-- by me-- was because he used the same language in reference to me that he has used repeatedly in the subterranean board. And since you have also viewed that board, you know precisely to what I am referring.

Not having it.

Feel free to talk all the trash you want about RE and me behind our backs; clearly no one will gainsay you. But not a speck of that is going to make it to the Diner Forum.

Now go be predictable.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: agelbert on July 07, 2014, 12:58:55 PM
Surly said,
Quote
Not having it.
  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif) :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:

I humbly suggest you also take a look at MKing's repetitive fossil fueler propaganda bullshit about plentiful water resources (leaving out the "clean" part and how fossil fuels make it unpotable as well as reducing the quantity of potable, of course  :evil4:), consistently lying about the ACTUAL costs of fossil fuels and consistently and arrogantly claiming he has the most elementary knowledge of cause and effect in his "econ 101, supply and demand" HORSESHIT perpetual catapulting himself on his own petard. He ignores the COST we are now FORCED to pay for his fossil fuels to shit on our environment and then turns around and says, sure, you can have anything you WANT, as long you are will to pay MORE!

Well, the bill is coming DUE for the MKing's of this world. And believe you me, they are going to PAY. Scoff all you want, MKing. As RE says, you can't fix STUPID. ANYONE that thinks you have ANY objectivity at all on matters of energy use cost and environmental cost computations doesn't understand your REAL (and ONLY) expertise (i.e. pro-fossil fuel bought and paid for propagandist). You should be banned simply because you are about as original as a door bell. Every time someone pushes your "button", you make exactly the same sound.

Randy is on to him! :emthup: :icon_sunny:

Time to do some knitting. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6348.gif)


Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 01:50:52 PM
Surly said,
Quote
Not having it.
  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif) :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:

I humbly suggest you also take a look at MKing's repetitive fossil fueler propaganda bullshit about plentiful water resources (leaving out the "clean" part and how fossil fuels make it unpotable as well as reducing the quantity of potable, of course  :evil4:), consistently lying about the ACTUAL costs of fossil fuels and consistently and arrogantly claiming he has the most elementary knowledge of cause and effect in his "econ 101, supply and demand" HORSESHIT perpetual catapulting himself on his own petard. He ignores the COST we are now FORCED to pay for his fossil fuels to shit on our environment and then turns around and says, sure, you can have anything you WANT, as long you are will to pay MORE!

Well, the bill is coming DUE for the MKing's of this world. And believe you me, they are going to PAY. Scoff all you want, MKing. As RE says, you can't fix STUPID. ANYONE that thinks you have ANY objectivity at all on matters of energy use cost and environmental cost computations doesn't understand your REAL (and ONLY) expertise (i.e. pro-fossil fuel bought and paid for propagandist). You should be banned simply because you are about as original as a door bell. Every time someone pushes your "button", you make exactly the same sound.

Randy is on to him! :emthup: :icon_sunny:

Time to do some knitting. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6348.gif)

This is almost as much fun as having co-workers....
 :emthup: :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 04:21:36 PM
Quote
I took GO's comments to be a little annoyed but still tongue and check as the saying goes, so I'm good with that. 

Hi RandyC. It's a pleasure debating with you and becoming acquainted with you and your most interesting circumstance of being a real farmer.

I'm not sure I'm much of a debater.  We really didn't do much of that at meetings, it was generally make and defend your case and let the big wheels decide who had a better case.  I was trained to go where the data goes.  That training I brought with me after I woke up and smelled the coffee in 2009.  I chose farming over life in Washington D.C. for a variety of reasons and have never regretted leaving the Borg Collective.

Try an understand in a nutshell that we are on the same wave length with a difference in timing being our major difference it appears. While seeing the big trouble ahead that you do, my feeling is there will be much and serious inflation from today onwards, long before  the total breakdown occurs, if it does at all.

By and large we do agree more than we disagree.  Perhaps I am just a bit further down the proverbial road in this journey than you or others.  There is nothing wrong with gold ownership in a functioning world and in that statement I would call the last 8,000 years a functioning world as far as gold is concerned.  It makes a good medium of exchange, must be mined and is limited in supply (expect when you get the Spanish involved ;) ) and worked well as a currency for a very long time.  As I said before, it worked until it was dumped in the oil age.  While it may work as a store of wealth and in a hyper-inflationary situation, it will likely do much better than paper, my concern is that the real problem won't be hyper-inflation, but a lack of things to buy and as that becomes more apparent people will be less willing to part with their consumables in trade for paper or gold/silver if they will not be able to resupply.

My buying of Gold is to try and protect myself  from the current and perceived inflation I think is coming before that dreaded arrival of the Apocalypse.. Guess I am what you call a slow doomer or light doomer  as we say on the Diner. I also hold out some hope for our future, probably because of my lovely grandchildren, so I am prejudiced. It is a belief of mine that there are some very extremely smart, constructive members of the human race, I certainly am not one of them, that have the ability to solve problems such as climate change and a weening from fossil fuels and our polluting ways.

We are also on the same wave when it comes to Nicole Foss, much of my food storage tendencies come from her wise council. Right or wrong she is certainly a brilliant well intentioned person as is her business partner Ilargi. You never will go wrong taking some advice or precautions from those two.

Foss is right on a lot of things.  She is a deflationist and also sees the problems that disrupting supply lines due to a credit collapse would have on the global population that still has money or gold enough to buy products.  Once I can no longer get fuel and electricity, the rest doesn't matter.  Our customers give us about $10 a gallon for fluid milk and while that might sound like a lot there simply are not enough people wanting that product for this business to stay viable for the long term.  Simply put, there is no future in income generating farming at any level.  It will not take hyper-inflation to put us out of business.  Alfalfa pellets have gone up from $14 per bag last year to $19 per bag.  That is a big deal.  If they go up much more that will be the end of having anything to put in front of the cows and I expect a lot more trouble from them.  They really do get pissed off if you don't give them something for their trouble of coming back to the barn.

I would like to be a doomer light but, based on my training as a infrastructure analyst at DIA and DHS I just don't see how we get a slow crash going forward.  This country is physically falling apart.  The slow crash started back in 1971 and is accelerating.  As to how it will unfold I can't say for sure, but I do know the electrical grid is old and out of date and very vulnerable to attack as was witnessed in April 2013 when a substation was attacked and put out of commission by a group of people using AKs in California.  If the grid goes, so goes the nuclear power plants and that is one reason I want to get out of the eastern US.  I once believed in the intelligence of humanity but ten years in the intelligence business cured me of that...  Fukushima didn't help....

My sarcastic remarks from your posting came about only because of my frustration at your thinking I could possible think a Gold coin was going to do me any good on Doomsday, the day the whole system finally unravels. Gold is a financial monetary asset, not food, shelter, or water, let alone a gun.

No, I don't think you are dumb enough to believe that.  My initial comment that got this thread going was directed towards the "financial experts" who love to tell us that we can prosper as the world burns.

I had an interesting conversation with a guy on Nature Bats Last a couple of years ago where he was trying to argue that his gold would buy my boots.  Sorry I said, that only works if I have boots to sell and can then take the gold and use it to buy something else.  What I see going forward is not a functioning economy.  At some point it will break down, likely with a failure of the financial system and that will cascade into energy and metals followed by manufacturing and distribution and then finally the social structure.  Yes, that is Richard Duncan's view and I share it.  Foss has said that gold and silver are fine once you cover the basic, and it is good that you have.  My next question would be are you ready to deal with people who will want what you have after they can't get anything else.  In my opinion, the only way to survive that will be being somewhere that there are not a lot of people.  We bought this farm in 2005 before it became obvious that there was a problem.  Initially I thought we and our annual stockpile (from farm grown products) would be just fine.  Then I woke up one day and said.. hum... what do I do when the neighbors come calling?  I then tried to talk to some of them, was told I was nuts, and then told they would just come for what we had.  We then decided that leaving was the thing to do.


As to guns, they are tools, not monetary assets as you point out, they have their place in the world but they are also heavy, require cleaning, ammo and spare parts.  A good recurve bow and hand fletched arrows will be working much longer but also require a lot more skill.  Stockpiling ammo sounds great until you realize that you might have to carry it.  I think I have around 250lbs of mixed calibers, rifle, pistol and shotgun.  That is a lot to carry and I can think of more important things than a half dozen firearms....

Perhaps if you knew how many total and complete ass holes have told me you can't eat Gold over the past decades you would understand better my dismay and irritation.

Oh, I don't doubt it one bit.  Again, gold is a pre-collapse hedge against inflation as you point out.  If you can afford it, good for you.  I personally can't but I also can produce food and some energy so my ability to function is a bit better than most.  Once the game is up, most of what we modern people have will be useless very quickly.  Then it is skills and the right tools that will get people through the bottleneck.

Good luck with the farm and getting your price, the economy might be getting a bit better so perhaps you will get out OK. It is a pleasure talking with you.  GO

Thank you for your encouragement.  As to selling this place, farms are "special" and require the right person to buy them.  Oil prices are a big factor in selling these properties.  If a buyer is a commuter to Blacksburg, or Roanoke, then gas prices matter.  One of my neighbors sold out two years ago because he couldn't afford the gas prices.  Right after the 2008 oil price spike for sale signs sprang up all over the county.  It looked like the realtors were running for public office!  Most of those properties have cleared now but it did take a while.  Yesterday we had a young couple (34 and 36) who were here to see the place and want to buy a working farm.  Maybe they will decided this is a good one to work.






Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Randy C on July 07, 2014, 04:23:12 PM
I still have not figured out how to quote individual paragraphs, so I use bold to distinguish my comments from the person quoted, in this case GO.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 07, 2014, 05:57:44 PM
The reason GO's post was censored-- by me-- was because he used the same language in reference to me that he has used repeatedly in the subterranean board. And since you have also viewed that board, you know precisely to what I am referring.

Not having it.

Feel free to talk all the trash you want about RE and me behind our backs; clearly no one will gainsay you. But not a speck of that is going to make it to the Diner Forum.
I quite understand the desire to maintain standards on the Diner.  I just wish you would apply it to your own writing, Surly.  Moderators and admins should exemplify the behavior they want to see on their boards.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 07, 2014, 06:13:52 PM
as far as food goes, I have over 10 grand worth of it in storage, including a ten year supply of various canned fish which was discussed at length in my previous postings on the Diner. Please JD, understand whom you are talking too, an ass perhaps but not an imbecile.  :exp-angry:
I must have missed those postings.  I didn't really think you were unprepared.  The question is how your message tends to come across.  Most of the time, it seems like you're saying that gold is all you need.  I know you're smarter than that, but that is what someone reading the Diner casually would probably get from your posts.

You're not an imbecile, and that's part of the problem: when you're smart, you expect people to understand things at the level you do.  Sometimes, you have to simplify things like you were talking to an imbecile to get your point across.  Otherwise, they just come back with stuff like "you can't eat gold".
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: agelbert on July 07, 2014, 06:56:27 PM
JD said,
Quote
I quite understand the desire to maintain standards on the Diner. I just wish you would apply it to your own writing, Surly.  Moderators and admins should exemplify the behavior they want to see on their boards.

 (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif)   (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/347/2/6/WTF_Smiley_face_by_IveWasHere.jpg)

If ANYBODY has a long, and very well mannered fuse here, it's Surly!  :emthup:  :icon_sunny:

JD, you've been here quite a long time. There is a HISTORY here. PLEASE, do not pretend you are ignorant of it. I read between the lines in your last comment and I think I understood that you don't like people to act one dimensional (I.E to play DUMB when they are not just to SAND BAG or SET SOMEBODY UP) on issues that are complex and multidimensional, right?  8)

Do you want to talk about the kind of BULLSHIT that makes no fucking sense at all but EVERYBODY HERE just ignores it like it was not a total paradoxical mindfuck? How about having investments in Las Vegas and calling yourself a Christian at the same time? No big deal, right. Who gives a shit? Well, my friend, that is the kind of BLATANT inconsistency that goes right over your head, but not that other people.

Surly NEVER plays "dumb" and neither do I. There is a HISTORY here. If you do not wish to address, it, that's all well and good. But please don't pretend Surly is being a badass or not following some Robert's Rules of Order and decorum. That's simply not the case.

Sure, Surly has a way of using his mastery of the King's English to score mocking hits when he detects puffery and bullshit, no matter how politely delivered in passive aggressive pseudo innocence. That only pisses people off who dance around the merits of an argument instead of getting down to the facts of the matter.

I'm not as good as Surly at it, but I know how to do it too. I HATE false pretenses! :icon_mrgreen:

PRETENSE= (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9HT4xZyDmh4/TOHhxzA0wLI/AAAAAAAAEUk/oeHDS2cfxWQ/s200/Smiley_Angel_Wings_Halo.jpg)
Pretense uncovered! (http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt49/Xxenace13/rageface.gif)    (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/245.gif)

 

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Ka on July 07, 2014, 10:52:39 PM
I would like to be a doomer light but, based on my training as a infrastructure analyst at DIA and DHS I just don't see how we get a slow crash going forward.  This country is physically falling apart.  The slow crash started back in 1971 and is accelerating.  As to how it will unfold I can't say for sure, but I do know the electrical grid is old and out of date and very vulnerable to attack as was witnessed in April 2013 when a substation was attacked and put out of commission by a group of people using AKs in California.  If the grid goes, so goes the nuclear power plants and that is one reason I want to get out of the eastern US.  I once believed in the intelligence of humanity but ten years in the intelligence business cured me of that...  Fukushima didn't help....

A financial/economic collapse is not incompatible with Doom Lite. Say we get another Lehman event, and this time the gov't can't bail out the banks because nobody trusts the dollar anymore. So all the banks fail, everyone's saving, pensions, etc. are wiped out, no letters of credit so nothing moves, shelves go bare, riots ensue. That is, complete financial and economic collapse. But after a week or so of this, Congress and the President declare a national emergency, and basically the military takes over. All gov't debt is defaulted on, a "new dollar" is initiated (from the Treasury, not the Fed, which is now defunct), whatever has to be nationalized to get food distributed is nationalized -- and so on. Think of Germany right after WWII, what Germans refer to as "year zero". They were in much worse shape than we would be in the above scenario. True, it will be impossible for the US to return to growth, but it could manage decline in a fairly equitable way. As for infrastructure, in this scenario, I think the US will forget about world domination and a bunch of other things (like maintaining six lane highways) and have enough wherewithal to keep things patched together.

Note, I'm not saying all this will happen in a reasonable fashion, just that it could.

Quote
I still have not figured out how to quote individual paragraphs, so I use bold to distinguish my comments from the person quoted, in this case GO.

Wherever you want to break up the quoted material, insert
(/quote)

whatever you want to say

(quote)

only use square brackets, not parentheses.

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: RE on July 07, 2014, 11:43:08 PM
Yes, Glacier View looks interesting.  Thanks for posting the July 4th festivities, looking forward to visiting.

Looking forward to the visit.

Arnie (the fellow who owns most of the land in this area) is selling off 160 Acres in Parcels of around 5-20 Acres.  I should have a price on this soon, as another friend is going up there to look at buying one of them.

I think you would have to do a lot of soil ammendation to be able to do Dairy around there.  No shortage of water though for a long time for sure.  I think the community would welcome a Dairy operation though.

No worries about Zombie Hordes in Glacier View.  Like nobody lives around there, and nobody is getting there either after TSHTF.

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 08, 2014, 02:29:26 AM
The reason GO's post was censored-- by me-- was because he used the same language in reference to me that he has used repeatedly in the subterranean board. And since you have also viewed that board, you know precisely to what I am referring.

Not having it.

Feel free to talk all the trash you want about RE and me behind our backs; clearly no one will gainsay you. But not a speck of that is going to make it to the Diner Forum.
I quite understand the desire to maintain standards on the Diner.  I just wish you would apply it to your own writing, Surly.  Moderators and admins should exemplify the behavior they want to see on their boards.

Well, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

I am certain that in your desire to avoid modeling the effete hypocrisy of others, you will similarly exhort the other "moderators and admins" to behave in similar fashion. We'll all wait back for your report.

There is much that I could say. As I have for the last several months,  I will leave most of that unsaid, save this: the thing I despise most in this life is a hypocrite. So when the kindest thing one has to say about the proprietor of this board is that he is a "lout," and it spirals downhill from there, one shouldn't expect kid gloves staff treatment when he comes up through the manhole cover and into the sunlight.

Let me be clear JD that I'm not directing this comment at you,  aside from a response to your exhortation to be a better role model.  Yesterday was the first time that I deleted the a myself; may not be be the last.   I am not at all sure that in dealing with trolls, the squeeze is worth the juice.



Title: Spelling it out for the Terminally Dense
Post by: RE on July 08, 2014, 03:09:11 AM
Yesterday was the first time that I deleted the a myself; may not be be the last.   I am not at all sure that in dealing with trolls, the squeeze is worth the juice.

While most of the Admins have real difficulty with sending posting to the Duly Noted & Filed folder, I do not have this problem.

Once I decided enough was enough here, I settled on doing what everybody else who runs a blog does to keep the Commentariat from spinning out of control, which was to get rid of posting designed to screw up the board.

Let me be clear here.  If your post contains a complaint about "censorship", it will never see the light of day, so don't bother complaining.

If I can't find anything worthwhile in the post which has not already been hashed over 6 ways from Sunday, it also probably gets duly noted and filed.

If the tone is obnoxious, DN & F too!

If you insult me or any of the other Admins, DN & F!

If I just happen to be pissed off and have a low tolerance day, DN & F for you!  LOL.

Its MY fucking Blog!  I pay the bills here!  Stick it where the SUN  :icon_sunny: Don't Shine if you don't like it, or better yet start your OWN fucking Blog!

As far as Admins setting an example of Righteous Behavior, I do support that idea, and I am trying to uphold it myself.  However, Surly continues to read the Sewer, which I do not do.  So he sees the vitriole pitched there, and he reacts to that.  If it gets pitched out on that board, it is fair game for an Admin here to respond in kind if he so chooses to do so.  You reap what you sow.  Play Nice on your Board, we will play nice here.  Pitch Napalm on yours, expect to get Napalmed back here.

That is all she wrote.

RE
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 08, 2014, 03:45:09 AM
Quote from: El Capo di Tutti Capi
However, Surly continues to read the Sewer, which I do not do.  So he sees the vitriole pitched there, and he reacts to that.  If it gets pitched out on that board, it is fair game for an Admin here to respond in kind if he so chooses to do so.  You reap what you sow.  Play Nice on your Board, we will play nice here.

A small point of clarification here: I do not read the sewer all that often. A decent respect for my mental health prevents doing so.  An occasional  snootful of the mewling and puking that goes on, with each complainant attempting to outdo the other striking a convincing victim pose, is about all that a stomach weakened by age can take.  I used to think that I was a conspiracy theorist, with a penchant for connecting the dots; I have nothing on these guys. The Diner is variously a CIA honeypot, or a front to stand up a kiddie porn ring,  a Boys Club for the weak of mind, or whatever is on Emmie's, etc. mind today.

Life is just too damn short, and I've got enough to do feeding the social media to attend much to the musings of the mentally ill. I just cannot abide a hypocrite. And I no longer feel the need to try.
Title: Re: Spelling it out for the Terminally Dense
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 08, 2014, 07:06:22 AM
As far as Admins setting an example of Righteous Behavior, I do support that idea, and I am trying to uphold it myself.  However, Surly continues to read the Sewer, which I do not do.  So he sees the vitriole pitched there, and he reacts to that.  If it gets pitched out on that board, it is fair game for an Admin here to respond in kind if he so chooses to do so.  You reap what you sow.  Play Nice on your Board, we will play nice here.  Pitch Napalm on yours, expect to get Napalmed back here.

You don't get it.  It's not a question of morals or rights or ethics.  It's a question of perception.  It's the agenda the terrorist uses, keep prodding until you provoke a response that is completely out of proportion.  To the casual lurker, it's the guy who goes ballistic and starts making nasty sexual remarks who looks like the bad guy, and if he has a status of "moderator" or "administrator", it makes the whole place look like somewhere you don't want to be.  I know it's hard, and people are doing a good job of restraining themselves the vast majority of the time.  And if you do lose your cool, hey, we all do at times, just go ahead and chuck your own post in the DN&F bin or modify it to tone it down.  The worst thing you can do is try to defend your behavior because that just makes you look like a complete jerk.
Title: Re: Spelling it out for the Terminally Dense
Post by: Surly1 on July 08, 2014, 09:17:10 AM
As far as Admins setting an example of Righteous Behavior, I do support that idea, and I am trying to uphold it myself.  However, Surly continues to read the Sewer, which I do not do.  So he sees the vitriole pitched there, and he reacts to that.  If it gets pitched out on that board, it is fair game for an Admin here to respond in kind if he so chooses to do so.  You reap what you sow.  Play Nice on your Board, we will play nice here.  Pitch Napalm on yours, expect to get Napalmed back here.

You don't get it.  It's not a question of morals or rights or ethics.  It's a question of perception.  It's the agenda the terrorist uses, keep prodding until you provoke a response that is completely out of proportion.  To the casual lurker, it's the guy who goes ballistic and starts making nasty sexual remarks who looks like the bad guy, and if he has a status of "moderator" or "administrator", it makes the whole place look like somewhere you don't want to be.  I know it's hard, and people are doing a good job of restraining themselves the vast majority of the time.  And if you do lose your cool, hey, we all do at times, just go ahead and chuck your own post in the DN&F bin or modify it to tone it down.  The worst thing you can do is try to defend your behavior because that just makes you look like a complete jerk.

Meaning, in other words, that the tone and tenor of the place gets to be set by the worst elements present: sort of like the US House of Representatives.

I have turned the other cheek so many times in this place that my head feels like its on a swivel.

If by telling the truth about a hypocrite makes me into a jerk,  I can live with that.

This too will pass.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 08, 2014, 10:15:59 AM
Note to MKing:

See RE's above, in re what passes muster and what doesn't. Snark filled ad hom and mockery doesn't.

DN&F. Times 2.

Feel free to try again, though.

Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: agelbert on July 08, 2014, 12:32:58 PM
JD said,
Quote
The worst thing you can do is try to defend your behavior because that just makes you look like a complete jerk.

Now I understand why you rarely defend your sporadic non sequiturs disguised as constructive criticism. That comment of yours sounds VERY stuffed shirty, ya know?

Naa, you said it so it must be rational, above reproach, honest, constructive, balanced, perceptive, in proper context and ... well you get the idea. You, quite simply believe with all your essence and being that you are eminently qualified to decide who is a complete jerk and who makes reasoned arguments, NOT based on morality of ANY sort, which you eschew as some throw back irrational "religious" concept that has no place in modern parlance of erudite luminaries, but based on your vast knowledge and experience of proper decorum in human affairs.

JD, you are a smart man. But it's hell on wheels to get you to admit you have stuck your foot so far down your mouth that you are in danger of self cannibalism. No, I don't expect you to back up and say you just fucked up.

We all have our faults. Your stuffed shirtism is showing.  :emthdown:

And yeah, I think you are the one arguing totally out of context.

HERE IS SOME CONTEXT (YOU IGNORED  (http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID1881227/fileID1340120989/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)IN REGARD TO SURLY) FOR YOU TO PONDER:

Surly,
I agree that you shouldn't feed the trolls. Yet you take enormous pains to avoid calling out a resident doomer troll for playing dumb and pretending to be neutral on renewable energy and global warming. Good luck with that. He loves to throw a rock into a doomer store window and then ask for "calm, objectivity and careful study of a most complex subject". That's bullshit and you know it.  :emthdown:

Your level of erudition, while much higher than mine, is no excuse for using kid gloves on that closet racist rand political reactionary just because he has a nice, fence straddling vocabulary.

Nevertheless, I continue to admire your take on just about everything, including not feeding the trolls. I get so bent out of shape at the raging, over-the-top, bold faced mendacity and doubletalk of said doomer that I want to disappear from this pointless discourse designed to delay progress and defend the status quo per secula seculorum

Maybe that is the plan. I can tell you it is working. But if he succeeds in driving me out of here, I have a going away present for him. The poser here that pushes propaganda is asking for somebody to publish his home address...

AG,
You know by now that I have great regard for your tireless research into alternative energy and refusal to be deterred by the fossil fuel BAU denialists. As long as there is money to be made in a given enterprise, there will be those eager to make it. And then to brag about how smart they are. . . Your work injects at least a glimmering of promise into a pretty gloomy future outlook; and this os on THESE pages, not NBL.

That said, I have mixed it up with just about every regular on this board, aside from the new folks, and can't say that I can get my adult diapers in a twist about words on a screen. My attitude was refined in this regard during Occupy. People of far different political stripes would come together for a common cause: we can't and won't agree on everything, but we agree on THIS, so let's work together on it. (Whether Occupy could have survived the small group dynamics even if DHS hadn't been calling plays from the sideline is arguable.) But my point is to agree where we can, disagree where we must, and overlook the stupid shit.

It's only words. I'm reminded of something that WHD and Roamer said last weekend during the Google hangout-- that what we have accomplished over the course of a couple years is a lot of WORDS. Time for some action. We were all delighted that some of the intrepid souls here will actually be putting words into action this spring in several venues.

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1723560_793694760658963_1775073630_n.jpg)

This puts me in mind of a running discussion I have with Contrary. She will spend a certain amount of time on Facebook, and find herself drawn into drawn-out arguments on social or political issues, which tend to attract others, which then demands further response, and after an period she will find herself arguing with a horde of mouth-breathers, all to accomplish . . .? Zip. Except a sense of being frustrated and drained. Pointless and counterproductive. The quasi-anonymity of the web seems to confer a license for rudeness that we would never indulge in person. A remarkable squandering of creative essence. Which is why I have been telling her lately,

(http://www.seabreeze.com.au/Img/Photos/Windsurfing/5258495.jpg)

Arguing with trolls gives them air and validation. Should someone require another epic beatdown, as was administered in these pages last summer, I will certainly rise (or sink) to the occasion. But otherwise I read, take in with as many grains of salt as is necessary, and move along.

We can never change anyone's opinion; we can only equip them so that they are moved to want to learn more and perhaps change their own.

I wish you a long fuse, and the wisdom of age, and a double shot of good humor as we fasten our seat belts and prepare a last Manhattan against the coming of TEOTWATKI.

RE and Surly are FINALLY doing what I have been requesting for OVER A YEAR. That is, to CENSOR THREAD TERRORISTS who, by derailing or repeated propaganda bullshit exercises,  achieve THEIR MISSION of a de facto CENSORING of the FACTS and the TRUTH on any given subject. And for that, I am quite pleased. I tire of countering bullshit from thread terrorists, many of which YOU rarely challenge when they utter the most ridiculous statements as if they were obvious realities.

Then you get all prissy when the hammer comes down on the bullshit. Sorry JD, you are the one that DOES NOT GET IT. You are the one who does not perceive the proper context.

Nuff said. I just remembered why I rarely responded to your "impish" context free, pot shots. Stick to teaching permaculture. Human value systems and interpersonal relations and respect are not your thing.

Have a nice day.


Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: jdwheeler42 on July 08, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
We all have our faults. Your stuffed shirtism is showing.  :emthdown:
Yeah, I'm sorry, I do sound like a stuffed shirt.  :(
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: Surly1 on July 08, 2014, 05:33:29 PM
We all have our faults. Your stuffed shirtism is showing.  :emthdown:
Yeah, I'm sorry, I do sound like a stuffed shirt.  :(

Easy, gents. For the record, AG, I have found myself thinking about what JD said a lot. It has merit. Even MK has something to say worth thinking about, say three to five per cent of the time, (with the remainder given to ceaseless ad hom and would be mockery.)

Yet what you said is true, too. It's time for those of us who have admin privileges to make this place safe for discussion once again without letting a handful of cranks ruin it for everyone. Yet it's a conflict of interest to be a player and wear a striped shirt. But no one shows up on the sandlot to ref... so we have to do the best we can.

Sometimes that's a pretty thin soup.

But thanks for your kind words and your insight into recognizing precisely what-- and who-- the problems are.
Title: Re: The Wealth Grab
Post by: agelbert on July 09, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
We all have our faults. Your stuffed shirtism is showing.  :emthdown:
Yeah, I'm sorry, I do sound like a stuffed shirt.  :(

(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/thankyou.gif)

Apology accepted. Surly's "rank" here DOES have RHIP, not because he is an Admin, but because he has earned the respect of all of us who read and enjoy his measured and erudite commentary.

(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-060.gif)
Title: Kraut Munis on the Rocks
Post by: RE on July 12, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
For anyone who thinks the Krauts are anymore solvent than anybody else around the Globe, this should provide a bit of a wake-up call.  They fund their economy on debt just like everybody else, and just like everywhere else this debt is imploding.

As usual, Martin Armstrong hits Da Goobermint as responsible for all this, without ever acknowledging all the real wealth is sucked out of the system by private interests, and the liabilities are all left to Da Goobermint.  Corporate Socialism, Privatize the Profits, Socialize the Losses.

RE

Forget Puerto Rico, German Munis Are In Trouble

Tyler Durden's picture



 

Submitted by Martin Armstrong of Armstrong Economics,

Bremen-buergerschaft

Part of our job is monitoring everything everywhere. We are gathering data om whatever moves on a global basis. I have stated numerous times, it is IMPOSSIBLE to forecast a single market in isolation because the wildcard comes from contagions set in motion elsewhere. It is like sunning on the beach and there is a tidal wave coming because of an earthquake you didn’t know happened. Unless you monitor the world, you cannot even forecast the weather for tomorrow. It would all be just dumb-luck and chance.

I have been warning that about 50% of the municipal governments in Germany are on the verge of bankruptcy.

I have warned that about 50% of the German municipalities are on the verge of bankruptcy. The pensions have been unfunded and are absorbing everything. As we saw in Detroit with more than 50% of current revenue going to pensions, taxes either rise, the borrow more, or they are out of business. We are in a giant bull market for taxes increases on every level. This is the real downside of Marxism – they theory that just keeps taking.

 

The German municipalities currently need more than 100 billion euros to renovate their dilapidated infrastructure. Government has been mismanaged on a grand scale and all politicians can do is think it is the public’s fault for not paying more taxes. They refuse to ever look at how they are running government on every level. It would be nice if there really were smart elite people in charge for only someone without any common-sense would have designed a political system that currently rules the world.

 

God never promised honest politicians nor did He promise qualified ones. Society votes for people who smile nice and we think that there is an honest politicians in the every corner of the world. The problem is, God made the world round and he has been laughing ever since.

 

German municipalities face rising debt levels that mimic Greece. They cannot afford the investment to even maintain schools and roads any more. We are headed into an economic abyss beyond contemplation.

This is part of the reason they are looking for bail-ins and even Merkel has determined they cannot allow any referendums fearing the people will vote against the EU.

The Bremen state government has now imposed a spending freeze today. The reason has been the unexpected expenditure and revenue shortfalls in the total amount of 60 million euros. The Hanseatic city must therefore finance until further notice only mandatory tasks.

Politicians cannot see that this system is doomed. They keep looking for everything possible to raise more and more taxes. They only see what they need, not what they are doing in the total destruction of the economy. Around 350 German companies have to pay back discounts on green electricity. Corresponding changes in the German Renewable Energies Act, the European Commission has confirmed. Compared to the rebates granted by a total of 10 billion euros but the repayment of 30 million euros are required.

german-high-court

Meanwhile, German highest Constitutional Court criticized the applicable tax privileges for corporate inheritances. So far heirs get the tax completely canceled if they continue the inherited company. Heirs of private assets, however, have to give a large part of the state. Moving in this direction wiped out small farmers in the USA forcing them to sell land to pay the taxes. When applied to productive business, applying inheritance taxes forces companies to close and reduce employment. It is not the same as just inheriting money or assets. An ongoing business is the economic engine of the economy.

It is just amazing who disconnected government are from the reality of the economy. Everything is geared to move toward the confiscation of wealth not reforming the system. These people are just brain-dead. Unemployment among the youth if over 60%. In American over 60% of students have been defrauded by telling them they need a college education, saddle them with huge debts that are NOT dischargeable even in bankruptcy, and they cannot find employment based upon the education they just paid for. That is fraud. If I sold you a trading program and it didn’t work, isn’t that consumer fraud? Not if you are a school.