Doomstead Diner Menu => Conspiracy => Topic started by: g on December 27, 2015, 06:05:10 AM

Title: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 27, 2015, 06:05:10 AM

Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy along side taxes

                                          (http://armstrongeconomics-wp.s3.amazonaws.com/2015/12/Bill-Hillary-shutterstock_13713790.jpg)

QUESTION:  Dear Mr. Armstrong,
Since watching ‘The Forecaster’ I read your blog daily: thank you for all you have done to make sense out of the current phase of the economic cycle we are in.  Some call it the fourth turning or winter and it helps to see the bigger picture.
About the loans: how do we go about reversing this “…standard consumer fraud since Hillary is the one who supported the bankers in making student loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy.”  How do we undo this new ruling?  Will we have to wait until the economy stops functioning, or is there a legal process to undo it.
Respectfully,

Laura

ANSWER: Excluding student loans from bankruptcy was the Clinton gift to the bankers. It was very detrimental for it encourages education to expand prices dramatically knowing there was no now practical check and balance. so it made education far worse.

The end-result will be a default, but it is unlikely that politicians will rise up in favor of students. The bankers pay for their elections so do not count on government for or by the people. That does not exist.

History says this will end very badly. We will see a rise in civil unrest and this can be the seed to a major political revolution down the road. The bankers converted student loans into debtor’s prison, which was outlawed because it was so abusive. There is no reasonable way out of this mess because the bankers bought Washington and if Clinton were to get in, forget it. She will NEVER admit the Clintons ever did anything wrong.

 http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/41027 (http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/41027)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: roamer on December 27, 2015, 09:02:33 AM
Out of all the scams in our increasingly racket driven scam ridden economy this one strikes me as the most perverse.  The whole educational system drills it into kids heads college is the one and only way to success, the parents the schools all reinforce.  Too bad it turns out to be largely a way to indebt and indoctrinate most of our ambitious youth into total muddle headed confusion.  I recommend trade schools, internships, apprenticeships, real world experience, and technical schools to anyone not very clear on their educational objectives and its financial costs. 
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 27, 2015, 09:53:26 AM
Out of all the scams in our increasingly racket driven scam ridden economy this one strikes me as the most perverse.  The whole educational system drills it into kids heads college is the one and only way to success, the parents the schools all reinforce.  Too bad it turns out to be largely a way to indebt and indoctrinate most of our ambitious youth into total muddle headed confusion.  I recommend trade schools, internships, apprenticeships, real world experience, and technical schools to anyone not very clear on their educational objectives and its financial costs.

Hi Roamer,  Would like to view this in the context of the exchange you were having with RE as to responsibility and blame.

While fully sharing your view that we all share in this travesty to an extent, namely, what the elite do to us;  my honest feeling is that these kids are being duped and chained to debt by evil scuzz balls.

Yes, your correct we all share responsibility for allowing it.  Yes, we voted the scum bags in.

However, my view that you were stretching it a bit with regard to responsibility is illustrated by this posting.

Certain folks are entrusted by the majority of us to be responsible, honest, caring for the interests of the folks who empowered them to be leaders.
These people betrayed that Trust and Honor, sold eager impressionable kids down the river for life to feather their own filthy pockets. On any scale, their evil and responsibility would tip the scales in their direction and overwhelm the other side.

This is why war tribunals seeking justice for war crimes prosecute the generals and government officials, not the foot soldiers, in most cases.

Your points in the exchange with RE were valid, please don't regard this as dismissing them, it's just that in the Blame and Responsibility department the blame tilts heavily toward TPTB. RE was more accurate IMO, not totally; as you point out we have to have personal responsibility as well, to be an informed educated citizenry.

"To Whom Much is Given, Much is Required"

But he who, without knowledge, did things for which punishment is given, will get only a small number of blows. The man to whom much is given, will have to give much; if much is given into his care, of him more will be requested.
- Basic English Bible

Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: roamer on December 27, 2015, 10:55:26 AM
GO, Its not that I don't agree that elites have in many situations rigged the deck when allowed.  That is to be expected and blaming them is like blaming the fox for raiding the hen house.  I blame us because we have lost our vigilance and let ourselves become disengaged and filled with so much sensless bullshit.  I also blame us because it is only the broader populace that could do anything about the future of the US.  It takes an engaged interested populace to have  a democracy, we've lost that and that is IMO is the cause while the evil elites are the symptom.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 11:08:00 AM
It takes an engaged interested populace to have  a democracy, we've lost that and that is IMO is the cause while the evil elites are the symptom.

We've never had a Democracy in the FSoA, it's been a Plutocracy since the very beginning.  In fact I would make the case that democracy has never existed in any large nation state since the idea of democracy first sprang up in Greece a few millenia back.  The Greeks and Romans certainly weren't democratic, they had slaves all over the place.  Here in the FSoA, we had explicit slaves right up through the 1850s, replaced after that by economic slavery to the Elite and their banking & credit system.  "Democracy" is Window Dressing to make J6P THINK he has some power, and to trick people into blaming themselves for the misery caused by the Elite with their rapaciousness and greed.  They are the responsible ones, they have the power, not J6P.  Blaming the Victim is counterproductive to real change and a Better Tomorrow.

RE
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: roamer on December 27, 2015, 11:17:19 AM
RE, I think we had a short period that approximated a democracy.  Post WWII until 1970ish saw the rise and beginning of decline of the middle class.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 27, 2015, 11:19:16 AM
GO, Its not that I don't agree that elites have in many situations rigged the deck when allowed.  That is to be expected and blaming them is like blaming the fox for raiding the hen house.  I blame us because we have lost our vigilance and let ourselves become disengaged and filled with so much sensless bullshit.  I also blame us because it is only the broader populace that could do anything about the future of the US.  It takes an engaged interested populace to have  a democracy, we've lost that and that is IMO is the cause while the evil elites are the symptom.

IMO you are projecting your mental status and abilities upon others who do not have your gifts.

A fox, despite his name, is a dumb animal that kills to eat or survive.

An elitist who takes advantage of those weaker, who trust him because he is supposedly wiser and a leader, is an evil depraved human that has to be held to a much higher standard than the ordinary man who goes about his life earning a living and who entrusts these people to do the business of governing and representing fairly.

If I get ill I go to a doctor. If he sticks me with a prescription for a harmful drug in a company he owns stock in and gets paid for each scrip he writes, is he a fox, or a no good evil prick? A responsible moral Dr would do what is best for his patient.

We have to trust certain people Roamer, and when they betray us they should be held accountable by our legal system.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 11:34:35 AM
RE, I think we had a short period that approximated a democracy.  Post WWII until 1970ish saw the rise and beginning of decline of the middle class.

I lived through some of that period Roamer.  By no means was it a Democracy.  During this time you had the McCarthy purge, the Assassination of JFK, the Vietnam War, etc.  None of this was democratic.  It goes back way further than that as well.  In the words of Woodrow Wilson:

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByxbngeIAAAxxPw.png)

RE
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: roamer on December 27, 2015, 12:46:25 PM
GO, I agree with you about holding our leaders accountable.  We ought to be having a trial for many of the TBTF banksters who helped precipitate the 2008 crash and then profited.  But we'll only arrive such actions if we can actually discuss and identify such crooks as a public.  Iceland managed to do this and that we are not is our fault not the crooks.


RE, None of those events disprove that we had a democracy.  There has never been a perfect government in known history.  The point I was making was that during that period we had a large middle class and that class had the ability to make choices much more conducive to a democracy due to their relative financial stability.  There isn't any obvious reason this has to be stripped from us we still are productive enough economically, its just the gains are concentrating to the corps and elites.  Which is quite a complex problem in itself but one we might have a chance of sorting out if we started really examining it.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 12:58:50 PM
RE, None of those events disprove that we had a democracy.  There has never been a perfect government in known history.  The point I was making was that during that period we had a large middle class and that class had the ability to make choices much more conducive to a democracy due to their relative financial stability.  There isn't any obvious reason this has to be stripped from us we still are productive enough economically, its just the gains are concentrating to the corps and elites.  Which is quite a complex problem in itself but one we might have a chance of sorting out if we started really examining it.

We only had a large middle class because there was plenty of cheap energy available and because it was beneficial to the Elite for the build out phase of the system.  Said middle class never had any power regardless of the Window Dressing "democracy" they and their children were sold on through the media and the education system.  Most young people think there was democracy back when there was a large middle class.  This is a canard, one apparently you buy into.

RE
Title: Lousiana now REQUIRES HS Grads to apply for College Loans
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 01:24:55 PM
Surreal.  You can't get your HS Diploma if you don't apply for a College Loan in LA.  ::)

RE

investmentresearchdynamics.com/atlas-shrugged/

Atlas Shrugged


December 24, 2015Financial Markets, U.S. EconomyAtlas Shrugged, credit bubble, student loan bubble

A friend sent me a news item from U.S. News and World Report which reported that Louisiana’s board of education is going to implement a new policy which requires all students to fill out a Free Application for Federal Student Aid in order to receive a high school diploma – LINK.

Think about that for a moment.  In order to receive a high diploma, the State of Louisiana is requiring that high school seniors fill out an application which would enable them to go into debt the moment they receive their diploma.

This is a mind-blowing event.  Most jobs available to high school grads do not require a college degree.  But some might require a high school diploma.  I have to wonder what the motive is behind this.  A significant portion of student debt is now being used for corporate-owned “universities” which are largely worthless to everyone except the entities who own the schools.  Goldman Sachs is a big player in this space.   Student debt, backed by the Taxpayer, is just another form of wealth transfer from the public to the banks and big corporations.

(http://i2.wp.com/investmentresearchdynamics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Untitled-9.png?resize=768%2C349)

The amount of student debt issued and outstanding is now over $1.3 trillion. Obama pats himself on the back because student loan delinquency rates are falling a bit.  But this is because he has made it easier to defer payment – LINK.  While 11.5% – roughly $150 billion – is in delinquency, about 50% of this debt is in some form of grace period, deferment or forebearance.  Loans in deferment are not part of the delinquency rate calculation.  The true level of delinquency and technical default is probably somewhere in the 35-45% range.

I have to believe that the requirement being implemented in Louisiana is violating some part of the Constitution.  Of course, with the simple stroke of a pen, Obama can override the Constitution with yet another Executive Order upholding this requirement.

This requirement in Louisiana is exactly the type insane laws which were imposed by the Government as described in the narrative laid out in “Atlas Shrugged.”  Acts of mandate which enabled the Government and the corporate friends of the Government to suck wealth from the populace and from productive workers and redistribute the largesse amongst themselves.

We know how the story unfolds in “Atlas Shrugged.”  Unfortunately, I see the same type of story unfolding in the United States.

    If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies… The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.  – Thomas Jefferson
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: Petty Tyrant on December 27, 2015, 01:59:14 PM
There has never been a perfect government in known history.  The point I was making was that during that period we had a large middle class and that class had the ability to make choices much more conducive to a democracy due to their relative financial stability.  There isn't any obvious reason this has to be stripped from us we still are productive enough economically, its just the gains are concentrating to the corps and elites.  Which is quite a complex problem in itself but one we might have a chance of sorting out if we started really examining it.

if the middle class were capable of making right decisions because they were wealthy,  but are no longer so no longer can,  whats the problem with those with the wealth now making the decisions? Are u less able to vote if u r poor?

Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
Are u less able to vote if u r poor?

You can vote, but you can't fund the campaign of the folks running for office who get on the ballot.

RE
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: Petty Tyrant on December 27, 2015, 03:10:13 PM
Are u less able to vote if u r poor?

You can vote, but you can't fund the campaign of the folks running for office who get on the ballot.

RE

And if u CAN fund a campaign,  u CANT compete with a sitcom or sports when your candidate appears on tv talking. The lowest common denominator in ethics and apathy winning is the logical conclusion every time.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: K-Dog on December 27, 2015, 03:43:50 PM
There has never been a perfect government in known history.

(http://www.digitales-forum-romanum.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1-Phase-N_Antoninisch_Blick-von-O-601x338.jpg)

Rome under the Antonines.  The Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of wisdom and virtue.  It was not perfect and Commodus shat on the goodness at the end but while it lasted mankind's happiest days were passed in the second century A.D under the rule of the good emperors.  The system failed when succession by merit was replaced by hereditary rule.

Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 03:51:03 PM
The lowest common denominator in ethics and apathy winning is the logical conclusion every time.

Which is the same thing as the candidate most easily purchased by the Elite, which brings you back to the same conclusion, that the blame lies with the Elite, not with J6P.  Blaming the Victim is not the solution here.  Blaming the Perp and then meting out Punishment to Fit the Crime is the solution.  It will however have to wait until the playing field is levelled some though.

RE
Title: Re: Lousiana now REQUIRES HS Grads to apply for College Loans
Post by: K-Dog on December 27, 2015, 04:11:27 PM
Surreal.  You can't get your HS Diploma if you don't apply for a College Loan in LA.  ::)

RE


The evolution of Fascism merges financial interests with government.  It is an inevitable consequence.


(http://qezmoneyfms.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/fascism1.jpg)
Private economic enterprise under centralized government control.

Someone had the idea of making sure all qualified HS graduates had access to loans.  They came up with the idea on their own or someone who is in the business of making student loans put them up to it.  They imagine they have good intentions but their attentions are amiss and instead they participate in the opening of Pandora’s box.  Public education is in the public realm but Americans have been brainwashed into thinking privatization is a good thing so this crossing of the line is noticed by few.





Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 04:20:25 PM
Rome under the Antonines.  The Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of wisdom and virtue.  It was not perfect and Commodus shat on the goodness at the end but while it lasted mankind's happiest days were passed in the second century A.D under the rule of the good emperors.  The system failed when succession by merit was replaced by hereditary rule.

I don't think those were very Happy Days for the Slaves living under the Antonines, even though they were nicer to slaves than other Roman Emperors.

I think that period for Rome was a bit like "Pax Americana", the salad days everyone looks back on in the Post WWII years through the 60s, but as mentioned those weren't really so great either for many people, and who wrote the history books makes a big difference too.

I think the tribes of the Pacific Northwest prior to the invasion of the Europeans was pretty good, and they had a fairly large organization estimated at around 200K involved in their system of Potlach and their respect for their environment.  However, they made war on each other and took slaves too, so not perfect there either.

In all societies of all eras and all types of Goobermint, as long as you are on the side of the "Haves" in the society, it seems quite good.  The Haves also write the history books for their time period.  The Have Nots are relatively quiet in periods of plenty, when even a Have Not has enough food and decent shelter, they only get real upset when the basics disappear and they are the first ones to be triaged off the economy.

Anyhow, if I had a time & place in history to pick as the perfect one, it would not have been Rome under the Antonines, even if I was one of the Elite.  The perfect time for me would have been on that first cat rigged sailing canoe that made it to the Big Island of Hawaii, a millenia or so back in time now.

(http://www.hokulea.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/hokulea_profile.png)

RE
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: Petty Tyrant on December 27, 2015, 04:27:50 PM
I dont think many people are operating under the principle that theyre not interested in politics or will vote for whatever sounds good for their interest,  but are also waiting to punish the politicians. If theyre apathetic, ignorant and self interested they arent also harboring idealistic outrage on behalf of humanity. Any "elite" meeting with an angry mob is probably going to be random and opportunistic rather than targetted for purpose of justice, just 'Lets storm the guards at those gates and get some of what those rich fuckers have'. Whoever goes through bernankes fridge and wallet probably wont recognise the name or face on the cards in it.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: K-Dog on December 27, 2015, 04:32:58 PM
RE, None of those events disprove that we had a democracy.  There has never been a perfect government in known history.  The point I was making was that during that period we had a large middle class and that class had the ability to make choices much more conducive to a democracy due to their relative financial stability.  There isn't any obvious reason this has to be stripped from us we still are productive enough economically, its just the gains are concentrating to the corps and elites.  Which is quite a complex problem in itself but one we might have a chance of sorting out if we started really examining it.

We only had a large middle class because there was plenty of cheap energy available and because it was beneficial to the Elite for the build out phase of the system.  Said middle class never had any power regardless of the Window Dressing "democracy" they and their children were sold on through the media and the education system.  Most young people think there was democracy back when there was a large middle class.  This is a canard, one apparently you buy into.

RE

America went into WWII in a depression.  The war created economic conditions which got everyone working and the economy provided prosperity to all as a result of the imposed economy of wartime production.  A working economy is better than none.  There is no mystery here.

When the war ended a consumer economy was immediately implemented to maintain prosperity and growth.  The war had been good to big business and now the consumer economy would do the same.  It shot the wad as far as future survival goes but it was good while it lasted.  Nobody wanted to return to the depression so sacrificing future generations was no big deal.

(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b2/83/69/b28369c2baf4669f35dc58361259d302.jpg)
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: RE on December 27, 2015, 04:50:57 PM
When the war ended a consumer economy was immediately implemented to maintain prosperity and growth.  The war had been good to big business and now the consumer economy would do the same.  It shot the wad as far as future survival goes but it was good while it lasted.  Nobody wanted to return to the depression so sacrificing future generations was no big deal.

Yah, the conversion to the Consumer Economy post-WWII was quite seamless and interesting.

The factories that had been producing Tanks were converted over to producing mass market Carz.  The chemical plants that had been producing Ammonium Nitrate for Bombs were converted to producing Fertilizer that produced the "Green Revolution" in Ag.  Gobs of new debt was issued to build the Eisenhower Interstate and rebuild Europe under the Marshall Plan.  MENA was divied up under Puppet Regimes put in place by the Elite to supply Energy for this build out.  J6P never had any say in any of this, and it is sheer mythology there was ever "Democracy" at work here at any time, either before WWII, during WWII or after WWII.  The media sold everyone in the 1st world that Technology would raise everyone up and we would go Trekking the Starz.  Just about every child who grew up from 1950 onward bought this line of bullshit, but meanwhile in the 3rd world they were being systematically raped and impoverished to make the Illusion seem real here.

Sadly, the vast majority of people in both the 1st & 3rd world still buy this line of bullshit.

RE
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: K-Dog on December 27, 2015, 04:54:14 PM
Quote
The Have Nots are relatively quiet in periods of plenty, when even a Have Not has enough food and decent shelter, they only get real upset when the basics disappear and they are the first ones to be triaged off the economy.

Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.  Everyone was participating in their own personal prosperity and their were apparently few complaints.  Consequently the Antonine people produced little history to tell what they were doing with their prosperity and time.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: Petty Tyrant on December 27, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
There has never been a perfect government in known history.

(http://www.digitales-forum-romanum.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1-Phase-N_Antoninisch_Blick-von-O-601x338.jpg)

Rome under the Antonines.  The Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of wisdom and virtue.  It was not perfect and Commodus shat on the goodness at the end but while it lasted mankind's happiest days were passed in the second century A.D under the rule of the good emperors.  The system failed when succession by merit was replaced by hereditary rule.

Thats roamers quote not mine,  but i agree wirh both of u. The golden age of King Janaka in India or the legendary Camelot Age of King Arthur and the Knights of the ROUND TABLE are other examples. These were not democracies though. The original democracy was where every citizen was effectively a senator who could argue,  debate,  or listen and then vote. Not everyone was a citizen with those rights though,  others were doing the work enabling the citizens to have time to hang around the debates that decided actions.

Being a citizen was a serious responsibility, and if it had been extended to everyone then would have hastened the lowest common denominator eventual outcome. That would have improved the lot of the non citizens some but only until the same endgame as we see today.

Thats a far cry from what we call democracy today, where politicians can make promises but do not have to follow through with them and can also do any number of things that was never part of the election platform, whole secret agendas introduced as bills after elections. That is if anybody even bothets to look into what policies were proposed other than what they might notice on an advert.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: K-Dog on December 27, 2015, 05:08:00 PM

Yah, the conversion to the Consumer Economy post-WWII was quite seamless and interesting.

The factories that had been producing Tanks were converted over to producing mass market Carz.  The chemical plants that had been producing Ammonium Nitrate for Bombs were converted to producing Fertilizer that produced the "Green Revolution" in Ag.  Gobs of new debt was issued to build the Eisenhower Interstate and rebuild Europe under the Marshall Plan.  MENA was divied up under Puppet Regimes put in place by the Elite to supply Energy for this build out.  J6P never had any say in any of this, and it is sheer mythology there was ever "Democracy" at work here at any time, either before WWII, during WWII or after WWII.  The media sold everyone in the 1st world that Technology would raise everyone up and we would go Trekking the Starz.  Just about every child who grew up from 1950 onward bought this line of bullshit, but meanwhile in the 3rd world they were being systematically raped and impoverished to make the Illusion seem real here.

Sadly, the vast majority of people in both the 1st & 3rd world still buy this line of bullshit.

RE

They would buy the bullshit and eat it up not understanding that their lifeblood was being sucked from them by their silent vampire overlords.  Love it or leave it with no place to go.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWcarsKWIAA9VzZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 27, 2015, 05:40:28 PM
Quote
Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 27, 2015, 06:13:20 PM
Quote
Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

A further quick net inquiry led me to this site where a view more to my understanding is presented.

               

The age of the Antonine dynasty has been described as that period of the Roman empire which enjoyed the greatest happiness. The Antonines' policy of avoiding war, determined the Roman empire's historical development to such a degree, that the name 'Antonine' became synonymous with prosperity, as we can see from the 'Panegyric on Rome', delivered by Aelius Aristides in AD 143/4.

It was a time when more and more Roman provincial citizens were rising to equestrian or even senatorial rank, and gradually acquiring more and more access to the Roman administration. Indeed, the second emperor of the Antonine dynasty, Trajan, was the first occupant of the Roman throne to come from a province (Baetica).

The Antonines showed a particular interest in Hellenic culture. Under their rule, art produced some of its finest examples, while the rise of the Second Sophistic movement serviced diplomatic relations between Hellenic cities and the Roman administration. It was a sign of the times and their trend towards the intellectual that Marcus Aurelius became involved with the Stoic, Platonic and Epicurean philosophies; his policy being so much coloured by them that he has gone down in history as 'the philosopher emperor'.

The reasons for this happy state of affairs are complex. The annexation of neighbouring client kingdoms during the first century AD meant that there was a general peace and stability. Provincial administration became more consistent and more effective. Commercial contact was facilitated, and economic well-being promoted by stationing armed units along key commercial routes. An unprecedented population increase was also registered, chiefly in urban centres. An explosion of building in the cities, vigorous intellectual life, flourishing aristic activity, movements in philosophy: all these accurately reflect the universal prosperity. Meanwhile, on the social level a new cultural identity was just beginning to make itself felt -that of the Greek-speaking Roman citizen.

Only when Marcus Aurelius died did the first clouds begin to gather, mainly on the north-west and eastern horizons of the Empire, which were to threaten the existence of this infinitely desirable peace. The person who was called upon to go on campaign and face these problems was the new emperor, Lucius Verus.

http://www.ime.gr/chronos/07/en/politics/index33.html (http://www.ime.gr/chronos/07/en/politics/index33.html) :icon_study:

                                                         (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/ForumRomanumRoma.jpg)
                                                                                                  Trajan's Forum

This forum was built on the order of the emperor Trajan with the spoils of war from the conquest of Dacia, which ended in 106.[1] The Fasti Ostienses state that the Forum was inaugurated in 112, while Trajan's Column was erected and then inaugurated in 113.

To build this monumental complex, extensive excavations were required: workers eliminated the sides of the Quirinal and Capitoline (Campidoglio) Hills, which closed the valley occupied by the Imperial forums toward the Campus Martius.

It is possible that the excavations were initiated under Emperor Domitian, while the project of the Forum was completely attributed to the architect Apollodorus of Damascus,[1] who also accompanied Emperor Trajan in the Dacian campaign.

During the time of the construction, several other projects took place: the construction of the Markets of Trajan,[1] and the renovation of the Caesar's Forum (where the Basilica Argentaria was built) and the Temple of Venus Genetrix.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Forum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Forum)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: K-Dog on December 28, 2015, 01:47:28 AM
Quote
Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

I tried to find an eloquent passage in 'The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire' which I know is there which describes the situation but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps necessity being the mother of invention (and creative works as well) was asleep in that age of peace and plenty. 

Being relatively fat and happy Romans of that time had no need of a George Carlonius and already existing Greek art and literature satisfied their needs like golden oldies radio stations do for us now without a war to protest. 

Consider that our own art and literature is totally market driven and that the only contribution to it by J6P now is the decision to select which page from an artists book one chooses a tattoo from.  Another form of consumer choice and consumer choice is the only freedom allowed J6P.  Consumerism defines American freedom and to Americans they are one and the same.

Humans are creative and inventive creatures but need stimulates inventive activity and without need to press it forward human creativity atrophies and concerns itself with the trivial.  Had they a consumer economy fashion might have been in constant flux being for them as it is for us now, money driven.  Perhaps a rise and fall of toga hems which would reflect an analogous concentration on trivia is simply not preserved in the historical record.  Yet without mass production new fashion could not have generated the acquisition of new copper and silver coin.  Like art of the times fashion may have atrophied because it is dependent on economic reward.
Title: Re: Clinton’s Gift to Bankers Made Student Loans the ONLY exception to Bankruptcy
Post by: g on December 28, 2015, 03:31:22 AM
Quote
Very true and in Antonine Rome during the longest streak of peace the civilized world has known no great monuments were erected and no great works of literature penned.

This is an amazing revelation for me. My thought would have been the opposite would have been true.

Any further comment on this topic would be appreciated.

Was always under the impression of a flourishing of the arts and literature during a period of peace, tranquility, and a public not engaged in wars or hardship.  :icon_scratch:

I tried to find an eloquent passage in 'The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire' which I know is there which describes the situation but was unsuccessful.  Perhaps necessity being the mother of invention (and creative works as well) was asleep in that age of peace and plenty. 

Being relatively fat and happy Romans of that time had no need of a George Carlonius and already existing Greek art and literature satisfied their needs like golden oldies radio stations do for us now without a war to protest. 

Consider that our own art and literature is totally market driven and that the only contribution to it by J6P now is the decision to select which page from an artists book one chooses a tattoo from.  Another form of consumer choice and consumer choice is the only freedom allowed J6P.  Consumerism defines American freedom and to Americans they are one and the same.

Humans are creative and inventive creatures but need stimulates inventive activity and without need to press it forward human creativity atrophies and concerns itself with the trivial.  Had they a consumer economy fashion might have been in constant flux being for them as it is for us now, money driven.  Perhaps a rise and fall of toga hems which would reflect an analogous concentration on trivia is simply not preserved in the historical record.  Yet without mass production new fashion could not have generated the acquisition of new copper and silver coin.  Like art of the times fashion may have atrophied because it is dependent on economic reward.

I get it K-Dog. Masterful explanation.

An abundance of mediocrity it would appear to an Eye in the Sky.

The topic you presented has brought ancient Rome back to my net travels last night and this morning. How interesting, Thanks

                           
                                                 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dFGnMmwoLNg/Ue3wVrCoOzI/AAAAAAAAHYg/HoDPfoto8N8/s1600/Marcus+Aurelius-live+good+life+gods.jpg)