Doomstead Diner Menu => Doomsteading => SUN ☼ => Topic started by: RE on February 25, 2017, 05:48:51 AM

Title: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 05:48:51 AM
If "impossibilist" was a word, I'd not be one of those.  But The Diner is populated mostly with impossiblists.

Diners have been name-called by a fellow Diner as being mostly "impossibilists".  I dispute this characterization.  More than 99% of the rest of the population, Diners actively seek to make possible a Better Tomorrow.

What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

2-  Take Political Action to help make a BT:  Surly with OWS and K-Dog as a Delegate for Bernie Sanders both qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.

5- Promote, Fund and Advertize a more Sustainable Future by Blogging & running a non-profit 501c3 corporation dedicated to this task:  RE, GM & LD all qualify.

So why do we get labelled as "impossibilists" by JRM?  Mainly because we generally agree that there will be a significant die off of the population of Homo Sap when cheap energy is not deliverable to all the systems we currently depend on to keep so many people alive on the planet.  Besides the Carz and McMansions, that includes all the water pumping and sewage treatment plants, all the tractors, fertilizer and pesticides produced by fossil fuels, and all the clothing manufactured with fossil fuels and shipped over the ocean using more fossil fuels.

Most of the Diners believe it is POSSIBLE for people to simplify their lives and become more self-sufficient and sustainable, but not for everybody currently walking the earth, or even everybody currently living in the FSoA.  Too many people are city-dependent on getting food from a grocery store and don't know the first thing about growing food.  Besides that, more than half the population doesn't have means to buy land to be able to try to do this even if they do have some knowledge.  Short of a Revolution and land redistribution this won't change, and a Revolution by itself would cause a lot of death and destruction.

What JRM doesn't like is the general consensus on the Diner that a large die off of the population of Homo Sap is inevitable coming down the pipe. He wants to believe it is possible to keep everyone alive living in peace & harmony with each other while a gradual reduction in population is undertaken, presumably through voluntary birth control and not forced sterilization.

While this is a noble ideal, it's just not very likely based on all of Human History.  Even I would not say it is "impossible" though, just highly unlikely.  Probability says that the outcome will be more like the general Diner consensus though.  Given this probablistic determination, the most effective use of your time, money and energy in preparation for the disappearance of fossil fuels from your community is to prepare for many people dying.  If you don't do this, you're just an Ostrich with your head plowed into the sand

If you want to find the REAL impossibilists, it's the folks over on Nature Bats Last following Dr. Death, Guy McSerpent.  GM has declared it is IMPOSSIBLE for any Homo Saps to survive anywhere on Planet Earth with a 4C rise in Average Global Temperature.  He has declared it to be IMPOSSIBLE to stop this Global Warming.  The Oceans will all die, and every last Homo Sap walking the earth today will be dead by Jan 1st, 2026.  Now THAT is a  true "impossibilist".

Here on the Diner, we are Possibilists who work toward a Better Tomorrow.  Characterizing most of us as Impossibilists is innaccurate and unfair name-calling.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 25, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
I would argue that I'm a "possibilist." 

What is possible?  That is the million dollar question.  It also happens to be what I'm most concerned with.  So, what is possible? 

What is certain is that we will get a lower energy per capital near future.  It's certain because of the finite nature of fossil fuels.  Simple analysis, no?  The solar panels that are popping up on every tenth house around here is testament to nothing more than the technotriumphalist delusion of infinite progress.  It won't save anything, and it's wrongheaded to begin with.  All of the sockets in our homes mostly power planned obsolescence.  They mostly deliver energy that is wasted on pointless distractions.  That's necessary so that we don't get busy doing things that matter. 

So what is possible?  What is necessary is a better question.  What is necessary is a new way forward.  What is needed is the vision to see what will work in the future.  Most people are enamored by their black mirrors, and they can't see anything beyond that gnarly reflection.  They don't care about anything beyond that reflection.  It's sad, but true.

http://www.youtube.com/v/RjnLizHnlrQ

God I love Metallica. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 07:55:18 AM
Actually, I did not call most Diners "impossibilists" exclusively because of the commonality of the view, here, that there will be a mass die off when the demand for energy far outstrips the supply.  I do agree that event will happen. I deny that it MUST be so abrupt that humankind cannot meet it's adaptive challenge.

But it's not just that, here in the Diner.  The accusation of generalized "impossibilism" also has to do with the topic at hand when I invented the word "impossibilist" (I suppose I invented it. Maybe not. Hmm.)  Diners are also generally impossibilists about suchlike as the possibility of extraordinary and deliberate social or political change.  A wet blanket gets tossed on nearly every or any idea about taking action in the world which isn't only very personal and private action.  In other words, there is a great deal of skepticism in the Diner about what I call "resistance and renewal".  Many times I have suggested that such skepticism and doubt are hardly unique to the Diner population, but characteristic of many people in our time -- which is a time in which cynicism and doubt about such things is quite the popular attitude among the well-informed.  (Those who are not well-informed about the true nature of our planetary ecological and social crises have no such tendency toward that crisis, being out of the loop altogether.)  Many times I've spoken of a self-fulfilling prophesy at work with such beliefs and attitudes.  Those who hold such attitudes not only tend to propagate those same attitudes in the world but also tend to be disengaged in the social sphere on account of their "nothing can be done" belief.   

I'm considered by some in the Diner to be an optimist.  But I am not an optimist by most dictionary definitions.  I'm just closer to that end of the spectrum than most Diners.  Optimism, to me, is just as distorted and distorting view of the world as is pessimism.  What I am is a possibilist about deliberately cultivated social and political change. Most Diners are not.  I'm also a possibilist when it comes to the possibility of humanity meeting the rather extraordinary adaptive challenge which all humans are now facing, which are adaptive challenges which Diners are well aware of.  They are:
anthropogenic climate change, financial / monetary fragility, corporate capture of government, peak net energy and declining fossil fuel....  All of these in combination are called a "clusterfuck".  I acknowledge that this clusterfuck is indeed unfolding in our world.  But I say they represent an adaptive challenge, not the conditions in which something like 90% of the world population must die in an abrupt die-off. 

I have, over my years in here, explained ... over and over again, why it is that we can meet the adaptive challenge of peak net energy and peak fossil fuels -- or energy decline without mass die-off.  My theory of that transition could be called The Overboard Method (TOM).  TOM says that those living in the so-called "developed world" use vastly more energy (especially in the form of coal, oil, natural gas -- non-renewables) than is necessary for their survival, or even than is necessary for a high quality of life.   TOM says that first-worlders will "throw overboard" (as if on a sinking ship at sea) those things which are causing their boat to sink, or which have become impossible to sustain).  The worst offenders will be thrown out first, such as the car culture.  It will be abandoned -- tossed into the sea.  This will not result in a situation which should require a mass die-off.  We've never REALLY depended on private automobiles half as much as we have imagined or pretended to.  People these days cling to car culture for various reasons, but absolute necessity isn't really one of them.  No one really ever did have no other choice than to live 20, 30, 50 miles from their workplace, for example.  They enjoy living out in the country, perhaps, but the work is in the city.  When car culture ends they will begin living much more close to where they work -- and where they shop, etc.   But car culture is just one example.  We've also never really depended on natural gas or electricity for home heating half as much as we have imagined or pretended.  Where I live, most of the houses could have been built in such a way that the sun would heat our homes through our cold high desert winters.  We get lots of sun here, and some local houses don't use any heat other than from the sun -- so we know this can be done. Through retrofitting along with improved insulation, most of these houses can be made to get most of their needed winter heating from the sun.  Hot water sources (bathing, showering, etc.) need not be gas or electric, either.  Solar water heating is entirely possible here.

No one ever really needed to live with one or two people in three or four thousand square foot houses, either.  If those houses are still being occupied as we throw things overboard TOM's way, they will be occupied by more people per square foot.  Probably a lot more.

What we do with energy, for the most part, is waste it.  When we cut out that waste, we'll discover that we do not simply die off. 

Unless!  Unless our financial system abruptly collapses because this reduction in consumption undermines it's feasibility, sending it into a tail spin because of the mountains of unserviceable dept lingering in now useless hulks of things called banks.  That's an adaptive challenge we should do something about as soon as possible, because that financial collapse could happen at any moment -- resulting in a failure of our delivery systems for pretty much all things, including necessities like food and water.

It's NOT impossible to repair the fragility in our financial systems so that we can buy enough time to unfold TOM.  TOM is doable.  He's a handsome fellow.

It's also NOT impossible to bring down the giant menace which is the fossil fuel industry, which threatens us with even worse climate problems down the trail.

It's NOT impossible to address corporate capture of our governments, thus installing systems which are much more genuinely democratic, and which serve our real political and social needs.

We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 25, 2017, 08:23:49 AM


We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.

Well that's not true because you are attempting the impossible here on the Diner. 

As I have said, I appreciate your perspective, but I don't agree.

Now, attitude can get you a long way.  If the right attitude is associated with an intelligent will, than a lot of Earth can be moved.  That is true in our personal lives.  We can fashion a reality within the realm of possibility, but there is that pesky probability to work with.  There are things that are possible and then there are more things that are probably...like a lower energy per capita future with a lot less homo sapiens walking around eating shit, much higher cancer rates compliments of Fukupukey, much less diversity by way of species on planet Earth, sea food as myth, more watery water in the ocean, and more profit from weapons of mass destruction manufacture.  Those things are all probable.  Those things, are in fact, certain.

Enough informed Merikans getting together to address the real problems we are facing is improbable.  Lot's of Merikans massing in the streets to protest the reality of our shrinking pie is inevitable.  They will protest about a ding-a-ling-a-ling in the urinal free public restroom.  Oh my, it might rape a vagina!!!  It's not a ding-a-ling...it's an oversized clitoris.  There have always been lady boys.  And!  We don't need laws associated.  You can do whatever you want to behind close doors as consenting adults.  Get over it...

but that is what they are all up in arms about.  That and the gaul of Dump with his stupid hair. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 25, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
I'm certainly not an impossibilist.  I've always considered the steps I'm taking to be more of a harvester of low hanging fruit.  Obvious easier first steps to be taken by a creature of the very comfortable world I was born into.  Energy efficiency, small living, local food production, bartering, fossil fuel replacement.  I'm only 30 percent there as yet but the process is accelerating.  I'll leave it to the cultural analysts to figure out if the positive acceleration can overcome the drag failing systems are imposing. It's a race without a finish line with huge hidden obstacles as yet unknown that could easily swamp you or you could just as easily sail around them.  You just don't know until you go out there and TRY; Your risk of failure is 100 percent if you dont.
Best regards, David Baillie
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 08:34:42 AM
Actually, I did not call most Diners "impossibilists" exclusively because of the commonality of the view, here, that there will be a mass die off when the demand for energy far outstrips the supply.  I do agree that event will happen. I deny that it MUST be so abrupt that humankind cannot meet it's adaptive challenge.

But it's not just that, here in the Diner.  The accusation of generalized "impossibilism" also has to do with the topic at hand when I invented the word "impossibilist" (I suppose I invented it. Maybe not. Hmm.)  Diners are also generally impossibilists about suchlike as the possibility of extraordinary and deliberate social or political change.  A wet blanket gets tossed on nearly every or any idea about taking action in the world which isn't only very personal and private action.  In other words, there is a great deal of skepticism in the Diner about what I call "resistance and renewal".  Many times I have suggested that such skepticism and doubt are hardly unique to the Diner population, but characteristic of many people in our time -- which is a time in which cynicism and doubt about such things is quite the popular attitude among the well-informed.  (Those who are not well-informed about the true nature of our planetary ecological and social crises have no such tendency toward that crisis, being out of the loop altogether.)  Many times I've spoken of a self-fulfilling prophesy at work with such beliefs and attitudes.  Those who hold such attitudes not only tend to propagate those same attitudes in the world but also tend to be disengaged in the social sphere on account of their "nothing can be done" belief.   

I'm considered by some in the Diner to be an optimist.  But I am not an optimist by most dictionary definitions.  I'm just closer to that end of the spectrum than most Diners.  Optimism, to me, is just as distorted and distorting view of the world as is pessimism.  What I am is a possibilist about deliberately cultivated social and political change. Most Diners are not.  I'm also a possibilist when it comes to the possibility of humanity meeting the rather extraordinary adaptive challenge which all humans are now facing, which are adaptive challenges which Diners are well aware of.  They are:
anthropogenic climate change, financial / monetary fragility, corporate capture of government, peak net energy and declining fossil fuel....  All of these in combination are called a "clusterfuck".  I acknowledge that this clusterfuck is indeed unfolding in our world.  But I say they represent an adaptive challenge, not the conditions in which something like 90% of the world population must die in an abrupt die-off. 

I have, over my years in here, explained ... over and over again, why it is that we can meet the adaptive challenge of peak net energy and peak fossil fuels -- or energy decline without mass die-off.  My theory of that transition could be called The Overboard Method (TOM).  TOM says that those living in the so-called "developed world" use vastly more energy (especially in the form of coal, oil, natural gas -- non-renewables) than is necessary for their survival, or even than is necessary for a high quality of life.   TOM says that first-worlders will "throw overboard" (as if on a sinking ship at sea) those things which are causing their boat to sink, or which have become impossible to sustain).  The worst offenders will be thrown out first, such as the car culture.  It will be abandoned -- tossed into the sea.  This will not result in a situation which should require a mass die-off.  We've never REALLY depended on private automobiles half as much as we have imagined or pretended to.  People these days cling to car culture for various reasons, but absolute necessity isn't really one of them.  No one really ever did have no other choice than to live 20, 30, 50 miles from their workplace, for example.  They enjoy living out in the country, perhaps, but the work is in the city.  When car culture ends they will begin living much more close to where they work -- and where they shop, etc.   But car culture is just one example.  We've also never really depended on natural gas or electricity for home heating half as much as we have imagined or pretended.  Where I live, most of the houses could have been built in such a way that the sun would heat our homes through our cold high desert winters.  We get lots of sun here, and some local houses don't use any heat other than from the sun -- so we know this can be done. Through retrofitting along with improved insulation, most of these houses can be made to get most of their needed winter heating from the sun.  Hot water sources (bathing, showering, etc.) need not be gas or electric, either.  Solar water heating is entirely possible here.

No one ever really needed to live with one or two people in three or four thousand square foot houses, either.  If those houses are still being occupied as we throw things overboard TOM's way, they will be occupied by more people per square foot.  Probably a lot more.

What we do with energy, for the most part, is waste it.  When we cut out that waste, we'll discover that we do not simply die off. 

Unless!  Unless our financial system abruptly collapses because this reduction in consumption undermines it's feasibility, sending it into a tail spin because of the mountains of unserviceable dept lingering in now useless hulks of things called banks.  That's an adaptive challenge we should do something about as soon as possible, because that financial collapse could happen at any moment -- resulting in a failure of our delivery systems for pretty much all things, including necessities like food and water.

It's NOT impossible to repair the fragility in our financial systems so that we can buy enough time to unfold TOM.  TOM is doable.  He's a handsome fellow.

It's also NOT impossible to bring down the giant menace which is the fossil fuel industry, which threatens us with even worse climate problems down the trail.

It's NOT impossible to address corporate capture of our governments, thus installing systems which are much more genuinely democratic, and which serve our real political and social needs.

We can do all of these things and more, without absolute catastrophe of a mass-die off kind.  But we have to use our knowledge and intelligence, and we have to educate the public about what's going on, and why.  That CAN be done, but it cannot be done if we don't think it is possible.  Because no one ever attempts the impossible. They just don't.

Sadly, Wet Blanket time has arrived again. :(

(http://thepositivemindblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Wet-Blanket-Policy.png)

Indeed, here in the 1st World we WASTE a huge amount of energy.  So if you could somehow more equitably distribute the energy, you might be abe to keep more people alive longer.  But the problem here is infrastructure and how the system was built out.  It's all designed to take energy from far flung corners of the earth and deliver it to a few central locations.  That's what all the Pipeline building is about.  In fact, we can't really afford to keep the current pipelines maintained in the locations they do exist, and there is no way that new pipelines and refineries and electric grids will be built out into places like India.  So a fair and equitable distribution of the remaining energy is unlikely to occur.

The next issue is that of building a huge Social Movement that will change the overall direction here.  We witnessed what occured with OWS, and now again with Standing Rock.  Thousands of people gathered to protest, but in the end the inertia of the juggernaut was too large for them to overcome.  Even protests which draw MILLIONS such as those recently in Romania don't stop the juggernaut.  In the end, it can only stop itself, which it will when it runs out of the energy necessary to run a Global War Machine.

I write on the internet in my small effort to reach more people and say what I think it is possible to accomplish here, within reasonable limits based on what has occured before in Human History.  It is not "necrophilia", nor am I an "Impossibilist", nor am I Stupid or Ignorant, and I resent being characterized by all these labels.  J am just making my best analysis of what I consider is most likely to occur, and what a given person can best do to prepare for the likely eventuality.

As to how quickly the die off of the population will occur, that is an open question.  It could be spread over as much as 50 years as a reasonable WAG.  But even spread over 50 years, this is 100s of millions of people dying every year in excess of the number still being born.  In all of WWII, around 60M people were estimated to have died, and that is over 6 years, so 10M/year.

Then of course you have vested interests, the Elite mainly here who wish to maintain control and privilege.  Unseating these folks from their positions of power is quite difficult as long as they have the Military and the Militarized Police protecting their power and privilege.  The kind of uprising globally you would need to accomplish that task is far larger than even 1M people surrounding the White House and Congress, and this level of organization on this scale is really unlikely. Not impossible mind you, just the probability is less than you winning the Lotto twice in a row.

So all in all, you're set up here for a pretty fast crash of Industrial Civilization, and making gross changes on the grand scale very unlikely.  So I council to put your energies toward more local solutions, where maybe you can have a little effect for a few people.  If of course you can raise the $MONEY$ you need to do it.  ::)

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 11:43:41 AM
What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.
I'm insulted, RE, not being mentioned though I qualify on these three items -- arguably more so than other Diners listed.

1. Let's pony up here: how many of us live on less (a quite a bit less) than $20k/year because spending time chasing cash income takes away from time spent prepsteading?  We qualify for Earned Income Credit, taking money BACK from Uncle Sam.  If we didn't grow a lot of our own food, we'd be in trouble.

3.  Duh!  (I'll accept that I qualify among "other Lurkers".)

4.  We live where we work, and avoid driving to town unless we must.  If I didn't have to drive my salvaged '82 Chevy 1-ton dually flatbed to the local mill (16 mile round trip) to restock our feed warehouse, I could go for weeks on end without leaving the property.  Have the bikes for local stops and recreation.

As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 25, 2017, 12:52:37 PM
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Ka on February 25, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
@JRM

As I see it, warning of massive die-off is the way to educate. What RE is saying is that IF nations don't IMMEDIATELY stop their wasteful nature AND IMMEDIATELY retool infrastructure to let people live at hugely lower material standard of living THEN there will be massive die-off. RE does not think the conditions will be met and hence the consequence will happen. (I also don't think the conditions will be met, though I do give a low but non-negligible chance of the conditions being met through a military takeover following a thorough financial/economic meltdown.)

But of course this message is not generally heard. You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 25, 2017, 01:10:39 PM
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 01:12:00 PM
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.
Key Word: Collectively.
I'm one puny termite. A house I cannot bring down in my lifetime.
Hook me up with those other thousands that can get something done, and I'm all in.
But they have to be doing something real, not just making noise and piles of trash.
I've wasted way too much of my time and resource with groups (all sought to become, or already were some sort of bona fide organization or institution) which ended up spinning a lot of wheels going nowhere truly useful.  But gosh, they felt good about themselves while doing it.
The planet would be better off if I'd stayed home and made compost.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 25, 2017, 01:15:53 PM
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

The planet would be better off if I'd stayed home and made compost.
Thank you that made me laugh. How often I have felt the same way!
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 25, 2017, 01:35:08 PM
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.

You have to understand that our states rights were already lost in a bloody war (at least two of my GG Grandfathers died in it), which was all about the consolidation of federal power. There is no way for a split to happen here until such time as the federal armies can no longer be financially and logistically supported. Talk of secession is just that, talk, and cheap talk at that. the last thing TPTB want is any loss of centralized control over us tax donkeys.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 02:31:08 PM
@JRM

".... You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?

There is no single answer or strategy for this.  Instead, the project requires a lot of people experimenting, playing, working, trying... lots and lots of different things -- but not in isolation from one another. Rather, in dialogue with one another.  A MOVEMENT is required, in other words, and not a top-down, centralized one with one, two or three basic and universal and un-changing (non-adapting) strategies.  Some will attempt to transform schools k-12, others high schools, others universities. Others, media. 

Our experimental, exploratory and adapting strategies would not be wildly willy-nilly, however, but would be based on a sound and thoroughgoing mapping and diagnosing of our situation ... in at least three dimensions (meaning simply that our map and diagnosis represents a serious and ongoing, deepening encounter with the actual territory to be mapped and diagnosed).  It addresses the real world vis-a-vis a good map.  It acurately diagnoses and treats our patient.  It isn't bullshit, in other words -- and that's a lot of its attraction and appeal in this current insane asylum we call our culture / society.  Which is a madhouse of carnival mirrors, distortions, lies, fraud and wild ignorance.

We appeal to our better human attributes, like kindness, warmth, affection, care for one another, care for life, sharing, cooperation -- and we create living examples of real world places (micro-eutopias (e.g., ecovillages) semi-macro-eutopias (e.g.,  the emerging Cascadia [bioregional]).

All the things we need to have happen are happening, but without the almost explosive expansion rate necessary -- which is to say we've not yet reached "critical mass" as a movement.  What I'm calling for here is enthusiastic movement building rather than wet blankets. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 04:02:32 PM
As a Canadian I've often wondered if the US wouldn't just split into more manageable pieces to cope with the various collapse scenarios we talk about.  Debt  default, followed by withdrawing support for the larger federal level. Local control would be more flexible.   Canada is different. Our founding period corresponds to watching your civil war unfold. Watching the feds pound their southern members into submission (rightly or wrongly) had an effect on our founding fathers.  The feds have a very limited role compared to the U.S. .  It's just one of those things that makes me ponder how things would unroll.

You have to understand that our states rights were already lost in a bloody war (at least two of my GG Grandfathers died in it), which was all about the consolidation of federal power. There is no way for a split to happen here until such time as the federal armies can no longer be financially and logistically supported. Talk of secession is just that, talk, and cheap talk at that. the last thing TPTB want is any loss of centralized control over us tax donkeys.

Regional breakup is inevitable for both the FSoA and Canada as the access to cheap energy diminishes.  It basically will arrive together with the collapse of the monetary system.  Likely to come with it is a protracted Civil War in both countries.  A while back I identified the 8 main regions on the NA continent that each could be self sufficient in resources, although to differing levels of total population. The Pacific Northwest & Cascadia for example has the best water supply and can support more people then the Southwest, which puts Mexico, TX, NM, & AZ together.  The Northeast has good water too, but there the population density is too high and so that neighborhood will experience the most extreme dieoff in gross numbers.  Alaska is basicall it's own beast and isolated from all the other regions.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 04:12:18 PM
What are some things you can do to make this BT possible, that Diners have done?

1-  Reduce expenses to the bare minimum so that you are paying less in taxes to the Military-Indutrial-Banking Complex:  Diners LD & GM, Agelbert, Palloy and RE all qualify.

3-  Work on building a more sustainable off grid life:  Diners Eddie, Palloy, JDW, DB, UB, JoW and numerous other Lurkers all qualify.

4-  Reduce dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles (including high power EVs which operate on grid power mostly not solar PV cells) by using a bicycle or low power electric scooter: RE qualifies.
I'm insulted, RE, not being mentioned though I qualify on these three items -- arguably more so than other Diners listed.

1. Let's pony up here: how many of us live on less (a quite a bit less) than $20k/year because spending time chasing cash income takes away from time spent prepsteading?  We qualify for Earned Income Credit, taking money BACK from Uncle Sam.  If we didn't grow a lot of our own food, we'd be in trouble.

3.  Duh!  (I'll accept that I qualify among "other Lurkers".)

4.  We live where we work, and avoid driving to town unless we must.  If I didn't have to drive my salvaged '82 Chevy 1-ton dually flatbed to the local mill (16 mile round trip) to restock our feed warehouse, I could go for weeks on end without leaving the property.  Have the bikes for local stops and recreation.

As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg

Mea Culpa FM!  I knew I would forget somebody.  ::)

Anyhow, you're a definite Possiblist, not Impossiblist since you're actively doing what you can to improve the situation.

As far as some massive global movement goes which will tear down the MIC, educate people to better living on the grand scale, solve resource depletion and population overshoot, all at the same time?  Another one of those highly unlikely events.  You have to plan realistically,not hope for fairy dust to arrive and solve the problems.  What you are doing is realistic.  It makes CFS.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 04:58:16 PM
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

This analogy perfectly conveys the potential power of social and political movements.  They are comprised of people who are basically powerless strictly on the level of the individual.  As the coordinated, intelligent activity of a kind of intelligent hive, they can -- and have -- work(ed) miracles.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 05:12:16 PM
As an 'impossibilist' I will confess that I'm somewhere on the spectrum.  Life on the whole has beat the shit out of me so I feel very insignificant -- just can't see that I have any power to have an effect on that gargantuan world of very far away, rich, powerful, ambitious, entrenched movers and shakers.  I hate to think about how things are probably going to go, especially since it involves my loved ones.  But I just can't see how I can have any influence outside my little tiny impoverished bubble and the many local individuals that I connect with.
--Greg
Look how tiny a termite is, but collectively, they can bring down a house -- or build up huge mounds in the desert.

This analogy perfectly conveys the potential power of social and political movements.  They are comprised of people who are basically powerless strictly on the level of the individual.  As the coordinated, intelligent activity of a kind of intelligent hive, they can -- and have -- work(ed) miracles.

I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 05:21:05 PM
@JRM

As I see it, warning of massive die-off is the way to educate. What RE is saying is that IF nations don't IMMEDIATELY stop their wasteful nature AND IMMEDIATELY retool infrastructure to let people live at hugely lower material standard of living THEN there will be massive die-off. RE does not think the conditions will be met and hence the consequence will happen. (I also don't think the conditions will be met, though I do give a low but non-negligible chance of the conditions being met through a military takeover following a thorough financial/economic meltdown.)

But of course this message is not generally heard. You frequently say that what we need to do is educate, but I have to ask what your plan is to do so? Buy out the MSM? Take over teachers' colleges? How, otherwise, can you make people listen to what you want them to hear?

As many of us here in The Diner well know, if enough people in the so-called 'developed'  world, or 'first world', abandon mass consumerism and mass consumption to live much more materially simple and appropriate lives (appropriate in an ecological sense), this will crash or economy.  Few of us here  in The Diner have bought into the various pathetic myths about all of this, which are the popular mainstream myths, tropes and memes.  But many Americans have deeply internalized the quite mistaken view that economic growth is essentially and always the highest, most necessary and best thing for humans to do.  It's not going to be easy for "us" -- whoever "we" are -- to challenge this very cult-like belief system, even with a mountain of facts and explanations.  At least not with those prone to cultish mentalities.

I for one think most Americans essentially identify High Consumption (and 'Standard of Living') with Quality of Life, which, when I investigated that question, turned out to be wildly false.  There is almost zero necessary correlation between these two. Which is to say that one can have a very high quality of life at a relatively low "standard of living" -- which is largely measured in terms of consumption.

The gaping chasm between quality of life (QOL) and standard of living (SOL) is near the heart of the educational project I have in mind, because when folks begin to imagine a way of life and a culture based on much lower consumption they generally will knee-jerk associate lower consumption (e.g., fo fossil fuels) with LACK and POVERTY.   But MOST  of that is pure negative fantasy.  It's not a fact at all.  It's not even close to being a fact.  It's a total falsehood, really.  And that this is demonstrably true should, in my opinion, be at the very center of our educational project.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 05:38:07 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

What is an example of a figurative and secular miracle in history?

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 05:38:29 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 06:47:28 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE


Naturally, I expected you to say that. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 25, 2017, 06:53:31 PM
As far as some massive global movement goes which will tear down the MIC, educate people to better living on the grand scale, solve resource depletion and population overshoot, all at the same time?  Another one of those highly unlikely events.  You have to plan realistically,not hope for fairy dust to arrive and solve the problems.  What you are doing is realistic.  It makes CFS.
My motto is hope for the best, be prepared for the worst, and expect something you never even thought of.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 07:12:22 PM
I am unaware of any miracles in recorded history, either individual or collective that have ever been proven to have occured.

I used the term in a figurative and secular, not a literal and religious, sense.  Your objection likely does not take this fact into account.

In the sense I'm using the term, "miracle,"  I would include the fruits (incomplete and imperfect as they are) of the American Abolitionist Movement, African American Civil Rights Movement, the Women's and Feminists Movements, the Gay and LGBT movements, and even -- for a while -- the Environmental and Conservationist Movements -- though this last item has been essentially crushed recently.  I'd also include other examples, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the Anti-Apartheid Movement (South African). 

Have any of these resulted in Paradise on Earth or an Ideal Utopia.  Certainly not, but each have been miraculous in the secular sense I mean.  And I'm sure the list can be grown for pages and pages.

None of those seem particularly miraculous to me, and they certainly would not solve problems of resource depletion and population overshoot.

RE


Naturally, I expected you to say that.

Yes, and I expect your "solutions" to continue to feature Miracles, Pixie Dust and a big Global Movement with everyone singing Kumbaya together.  ::)

http://www.youtube.com/v/CktNV97ga9Y

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: K-Dog on February 25, 2017, 07:37:58 PM
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 07:45:56 PM
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 07:55:57 PM
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...

Then you sprinkle on Pixie Dust, Pray for a Miracle and have the Band play Kumbaya.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 08:05:05 PM
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...
Then you sprinkle on Pixie Dust, Pray for a Miracle and have the Band play Kumbaya.

RE
No pixie dust, RE.
My point is that rather than scurrying around like an idiot (re-arranging the chairs) do something useful, prepare for the inevitable using what you have available -- you might just have a chance at saving your fat sorry ass.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 08:11:15 PM
As far as some massive global movement goes which will tear down the MIC, educate people to better living on the grand scale, solve resource depletion and population overshoot, all at the same time?  Another one of those highly unlikely events.  You have to plan realistically,not hope for fairy dust to arrive and solve the problems.  What you are doing is realistic.  It makes CFS.
My motto is hope for the best, be prepared for the worst, and expect something you never even thought of.


What's the MIC again? Sheesh.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
My motto is hope for the best, be prepared for the worst, and expect something you never even thought of.

As much as I love you, JDH (and I do), I find your motto, as stated here, as way too passive.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
What's the MIC again? Sheesh.
Undoubtedly it's "Military Industrial Complex".
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 08:16:56 PM
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Well, if they're wooden chairs, and you tie enough of them together...
Then you sprinkle on Pixie Dust, Pray for a Miracle and have the Band play Kumbaya.

RE
No pixie dust, RE.
My point is that rather than scurrying around like an idiot (re-arranging the chairs) do something useful, prepare for the inevitable using what you have available -- you might just have a chance at saving your fat sorry ass.

I am 100% in agreement with you FM.  This is why I pursue this debate with JRM.  I don't see anything concrete in his proposals, and developing a Global Movement of people that will fundamentally change the way they live has even less chance of succeeding than OWS or DAPL did.  At least those movements were composed of people who already had similar belief systems and focused on specific problems in one country.

What is possible is to make changes in your own life, cut your expenses and GTFO of the Big Shities.  The step after that is to start forming communities of like minded people.  These are concrete steps people can take, and they require no pixie dust.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 08:17:27 PM
What's the MIC again? Sheesh.
Undoubtedly it's "Military Industrial Complex".

Makes sense.  But why must everything be abbreviated in this way?!  My brain is getting old.  I process way too much information, and am overloaded all the time.  Type the damn words out fellas! Sheesh!

GNYQ!
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 25, 2017, 08:21:27 PM
GNYQ!
My turn! WTF is GNYQ?  :dontknow:
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 08:23:53 PM
GNYQ!
My turn! WTF is GNYQ?  :dontknow:

It doesn't matter. I'm in the wrong forum.  Forgive my intrusions fellas. I'm going to take another vacation from this miserable place.


Good luck to you all.

Best wishes.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 25, 2017, 08:25:52 PM
I don't see anything concrete in his proposals.

Oh, good. So I get to use one last parting abbreviation.


FU.

See if you can figure that one out.  LOL!


Bye bye ass holes.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 25, 2017, 08:28:33 PM
Collapse fatigue. It's rampant these days.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 08:31:17 PM
GNYQ!
My turn! WTF is GNYQ?  :dontknow:

It doesn't matter. I'm in the wrong forum.  Forgive my intrusions fellas. I'm going to take another vacation from this miserable place.


Good luck to you all.

Best wishes.

Have a nice vacation, and best of luck to you as well.

Far as being on the wrong forum, well it IS named the Doomstead Diner after all, so you can't claim False Advertizing or Bait & Switch here.

If you want to pose a contrarian POV on a forum, you have to be able to take the heat you get for it.  BTDT, Own the T-Shirt. (Been there, Done that).

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 08:38:14 PM
Collapse fatigue. It's rampant these days.

I must have developed special Antibodies protecting me from CF.  :icon_sunny:

After a full decade of slogging this thing out, I still got no problem finding more to write about or to argue my POV in a Forum.

Hopefully after his Walkabout, JRM will return with a recharge.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 25, 2017, 08:44:32 PM
What's the MIC again? Sheesh.
Undoubtedly it's "Military Industrial Complex".

Makes sense.  But why must everything be abbreviated in this way?!  My brain is getting old.  I process way too much information, and am overloaded all the time.  Type the damn words out fellas! Sheesh!

Making acronyms out of commonly used expressions is a habit of mine which comes from keyboarding out so many blogs and posts.  It gets tedious to retype these expressions over and over again, and it speeds up the time it takes me to drop on a post.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 06:11:05 AM
GNYQ!
My turn! WTF is GNYQ?  :dontknow:

It doesn't matter. I'm in the wrong forum.  Forgive my intrusions fellas. I'm going to take another vacation from this miserable place.


Good luck to you all.

Best wishes.

Well shit, gotta say I saw that one coming.  I'm surprised JRM lasted this long. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 08:11:29 AM
GNYQ!
My turn! WTF is GNYQ?  :dontknow:

It doesn't matter. I'm in the wrong forum.  Forgive my intrusions fellas. I'm going to take another vacation from this miserable place.


Good luck to you all.

Best wishes.

Well shit, gotta say I saw that one coming.  I'm surprised JRM lasted this long.

It's a tough row to hoe to be a contrarian to the Group Think on a website, and generally you have to be something of an asshole to do it and last at it.  Our long time contrarians GO and Moriarty enjoyed this role and so lasted a long time.  I did the same thing on TBP and also on Market Ticker where I would regularly go to battle with the Capitalista Pigmen on the site, as well as Karl Denninger himself. In the case of Karl and Jimbo on TBP, they both eventually shit canned me. lol.

JRM doesn't really have the constitution for this, he's not an asshole.  Kind of a prototypical New Age Sensitive Guy.  So to daily do battle with me and with the others here who mostly think we are set up for a significant die off was fatiguing for him.  However, he may not be gone for good, he went Walkabout once before for a couple of months and then returned.  So he may yet return and go another round.  He may even come round to our way of thinking, that happens too.  He reminds me a bit of Deb Ozarko,the bubbly New Age motivational speaker I did a Podcast with about a year ago.  In her case unfortunately, she completely flipped over to the Dark Side of Dr. Extinction Guy McSerpent, although I did try to pull her back from that pit of despair.  To no avail sadly. :(

I feel the SUN☼ philosophy does a good job of straddling the fence of being realistic about the situation we are in, but still presenting hopium that you can work towards practically.  Of course, we could work towards it better if we had more $MONEY$.  ::)

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 08:43:29 AM
I did the same thing on TBP and also on Market Ticker where I would regularly go to battle with the Capitalista Pigmen on the site, as well as Karl Denninger himself.

Parenthetically, if it were not for the time I spent on Market Ticker as a Contrarian, the Diner would not exist.  Market Ticker was where I met Peter, and we both lined up on the same side and took each other's backs in the battle against the Pigmen.  Same as with Surly on TBP, that is where I met him.  You do better at lasting when you find at least one person who will go to battle with you.  JRM didn't find anyone to take his back here, and that is frustrating.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 09:24:51 AM
The psychology in this form of sociological interaction can be challenging. 

Take my recent outburst at Palloy for instance.  I didn't mean to be mean  ;D (question to the SG Chief, what is the literary term for "mean" here?  I mean beyond it being a homonym) to him.  He just jumped in on the tale end of my having had enough shit about spelling, and I snapped.  In fact, I don't recall another time where I have snapped like that?  I'm sure I have though.  At any rate, my apologies to Palloy for cussin' him...but he was being a complete dick at the time.  So be it!  I've officially apologized to Palloy now...specifically for calling his avatar name stupid :D  I don't feel any way about that avatar name.  I was just pissed at the time. 

I think you're right about JRM, and I also have the feeling that he's probably lurking, or will be.  I'm sure he'll be back at some point, and I hope that he does come back.  I like his bit of optimism, although it can get tiring.  I'd love to be an optimist, but it's just that I'm not because the nature of our predicament leaves nothing to be happy about.  Sure, we can grow food, and I'm optimistic about that.  In fact, I think growing your own food is the most important thing you could possibly be doing right now.  It's even more important than being contrary to the philosophy of BAU!  Technically, by growing your own food, you are already contrary to BAU.  At any rate, we all have to eat, and growing food is something we can all do. 

While we endure collapse I might add.  Therein lies the rub!  If you don't think that our society is headed for the compost heap than you might be in the wrong place here at the Diner.  That is the common uniting thread.  We all believe that our civilization is collapsing.  We all believe that we are headed into a lower energy per capita future.  To argue that here is to take on an overwhelming burden.  I'm sure somebody here can prove me incorrect in that regard. 

I welcome debate, differing opinions, and much dissensus (which I think is a word JMG coined, and I honestly believe I'm spelling it correctly).  Either way, dissensus, as I understand it, means different ways of skinnin' a cat and whatnot.  Group think, at times, is nothing more than agreement among people.  And as such is not a negative (I'm aware one should not start a sentence with And). 

 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
question to the SG Chief, what is the literary term for "mean" here?

You have two uses of the word "mean" here.

If you wanted to avoid the problem, you might have used "intend to be cruel" instead of "mean to be mean"

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 09:48:30 AM
question to the SG Chief, what is the literary term for "mean" here?

You have two uses of the word "mean" here.

If you wanted to avoid the problem, you might have used "intend to be cruel" instead of "mean to be mean"

RE

I know, but I meant to use mean here to cause the confusion. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 09:51:49 AM
He just jumped in on the tale end of my having had enough shit about spelling, and I snapped

That'd be tail end. Another good one there, LD. You have a real gift for homonyms.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 10:09:31 AM

While we endure collapse I might add.  Therein lies the rub!  If you don't think that our society is headed for the compost heap than you might be in the wrong place here at the Diner.  That is the common uniting thread.  We all believe that our civilization is collapsing.  We all believe that we are headed into a lower energy per capita future.  To argue that here is to take on an overwhelming burden.  I'm sure somebody here can prove me incorrect in that regard. 

I welcome debate, differing opinions, and much dissensus (which I think is a word JMG coined, and I honestly believe I'm spelling it correctly).  Either way, dissensus, as I understand it, means different ways of skinnin' a cat and whatnot.  Group think, at times, is nothing more than agreement among people.  And as such is not a negative (I'm aware one should not start a sentence with And).

Starting a sentence with a conjunction is usually frowned on by English Grammar teachers, but it's common in good writing.  You just can't do it too often.

Indeed, as I mentioned to JRM in my Au Revoir post, this is the DOOMSTEAD DINER.  The title itself advertizes the spin of the site.  If you are not on board with the idea Industrial Civilization is DOOMED, then you are going to be swimming upstream here all the way.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 26, 2017, 10:19:33 AM
Actually, fellas, I'm not coming back for more in the future, and this is almost certainly my last post here.

I think there's a lot more going on than the mere expression of opinions in here.  What is being expressed, mostly, is the blinding effect of dogma and the inability to perceive or think outside of a pre-conceived and somewhat narrow band.  In other words, these opinions are much too tightly held to allow for the sort of conversations I'm interested in. Most of the time, anyway.   

I was hanging out with you doomers because you all recognize that we've got some daunting and intertwined crises and problems -- matters we've spoken about at length, so there's no need to say what they are.  We all recognized them.

But I'm not a defeatist about those problems. I'm an activist at heart.  I like to understand problems and challenges and use the knowledge so gained to intelligently engage with change, even transformation.  This gets me labelled an "optimist" in here, even though I'm not at all an optimist (a point I've had to make over and again but which never sinks in round here).  One can not be a defeatist and still not be an optimist. There's a difference.  Maybe if you think real hard you will eventually figure that one out. I'll not be holding my breath, though.

RE said some very condescending things to me back a few posts -- about singing kumbaya ... about having no concrete proposals (which isn't true, but my proposals are general principles more than detailed particular items much of the time.  Details can be derived from principles.  But neither can be understood or acted intelligently upon of the principles are not understood.

I've just been wasting my time in here, mostly, because I'm not a defeatist and this Diner is Hog Heaven for defeatists.  They just don't cop to it, and probably never will.  Or, if the atmosphere is not characterized by a cultish defeatism mainly, then the problem must be a lack of imagination.  One does not use imagination only to picture unreal things -- like unicorns.  One can also use imagination to see things which are real, if only in potential.  I think there is often a lack of such imagination in here. Maybe it's both a matter of a lack of imagination and  a cult of defeatist negativity which drove me away? 

It doesn't matter.   

I was glad to have been around you guys for this while because you guys know what we're up against, mostly.  Our chances of turning it around may be slim, but I'm going to devote myself to those slim chances anyway.  That's why I gotta leap out of this place.  This is a place for survivalist sort of stuff, not activism, not social change brewing....  And if one is not a defeatist around here one will be called an "optimist" and dismissed.

I'm done.

Much love to you all!
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: JRM on February 26, 2017, 10:24:56 AM

Indeed, as I mentioned to JRM in my Au Revoir post, this is the DOOMSTEAD DINER.  The title itself advertizes the spin of the site.  If you are not on board with the idea Industrial Civilization is DOOMED, then you are going to be swimming upstream here all the way.


This post really clarifies why I was wasting my time in here.  RE apparently does not think I would agree that Industrial Civilization is Doomed.  !!!

Despite all of my thousands and thousands of words in here, RE has never grokked that I GET THAT.  I just don't think it has to go down of a sudden and land in a flaming, smoking, stinking ruin. It could be transformed on its way down, salvaging only the best and dumping all of that which could not and should not be carried forward into the future.  No matter how much detailed discussion I've brought to bare on that, RE and most others in here have never understood me. No matter how well or carefully I articulated my veiws I have been misunderstood (either deliberately or otherwise).  It's maddening! 

Okay. 

Over and out.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 10:25:22 AM
He just jumped in on the tale end of my having had enough shit about spelling, and I snapped

That'd be tail end. Another good one there, LD. You have a real gift for homonyms.

I know right?  It would be funny if it were not so pathetic.  I actually took a second and considered that word choice and still fucked it up ;D

In my defense, the rules of English are complicated, and the only way to master them are via route memorization. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 10:40:04 AM

Indeed, as I mentioned to JRM in my Au Revoir post, this is the DOOMSTEAD DINER.  The title itself advertizes the spin of the site.  If you are not on board with the idea Industrial Civilization is DOOMED, then you are going to be swimming upstream here all the way.


This post really clarifies why I was wasting my time in here.  RE apparently does not think I would agree that Industrial Civilization is Doomed.  !!!

Despite all of my thousands and thousands of words in here, RE has never grokked that I GET THAT.  I just don't think it has to go down of a sudden and land in a flaming, smoking, stinking ruin. It could be transformed on its way down, salvaging only the best and dumping all of that which could not and should not be carried forward into the future.  No matter how much detailed discussion I've brought to bare on that, RE and most others in here have never understood me. No matter how well or carefully I articulated my veiws I have been misunderstood (either deliberately or otherwise).  It's maddening! 

Okay. 

Over and out.

Well good luck finding another group to share your ideas with.

You know you'll miss the Diner.   :P
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 10:40:27 AM
Actually, fellas, I'm not coming back for more in the future, and this is almost certainly my last post here.

I think there's a lot more going on than the mere expression of opinions in here.  What is being expressed, mostly, is the blinding effect of dogma and the inability to perceive or think outside of a pre-conceived and somewhat narrow band.  In other words, these opinions are much too tightly held to allow for the sort of conversations I'm interested in. Most of the time, anyway.   

I was hanging out with you doomers because you all recognize that we've got some daunting and intertwined crises and problems -- matters we've spoken about at length, so there's no need to say what they are.  We all recognized them.

But I'm not a defeatist about those problems. I'm an activist at heart.  I like to understand problems and challenges and use the knowledge so gained to intelligently engage with change, even transformation.  This gets me labelled an "optimist" in here, even though I'm not at all an optimist (a point I've had to make over and again but which never sinks in round here).  One can not be a defeatist and still not be an optimist. There's a difference.  Maybe if you think real hard you will eventually figure that one out. I'll not be holding my breath, though.

RE said some very condescending things to me back a few posts -- about singing kumbaya ... about having no concrete proposals (which isn't true, but my proposals are general principles more than detailed particular items much of the time.  Details can be derived from principles.  But neither can be understood or acted intelligently upon of the principles are not understood.

I've just been wasting my time in here, mostly, because I'm not a defeatist and this Diner is Hog Heaven for defeatists.  They just don't cop to it, and probably never will.  Or, if the atmosphere is not characterized by a cultish defeatism mainly, then the problem must be a lack of imagination.  One does not use imagination only to picture unreal things -- like unicorns.  One can also use imagination to see things which are real, if only in potential.  I think there is often a lack of such imagination in here. Maybe it's both a matter of a lack of imagination and  a cult of defeatist negativity which drove me away? 

It doesn't matter.   

I was glad to have been around you guys for this while because you guys know what we're up against, mostly.  Our chances of turning it around may be slim, but I'm going to devote myself to those slim chances anyway.  That's why I gotta leap out of this place.  This is a place for survivalist sort of stuff, not activism, not social change brewing....  And if one is not a defeatist around here one will be called an "optimist" and dismissed.

I'm done.

Much love to you all!

Well, I for one will miss you if you are gone for good.  You're a smart guy and have an interesting spin.  Not one I agree with of course, but interesting nonetheless.

Far as placing up the Kumbaya video, that is a form of tactical retaliation you can do on this forum, because it supports embeds.  It was retaliation for calling me a necrophiliac and stupid.  You reap what you sow.

I of course do not agree that we are defeatists here, we perpetually discuss ways to ameliorate the problems we see coming down the pipe.  You just don't want to or can't handle the depth of those problems, and you do not really offer up practical solutions to them.  So I call you out on this.

As with the other contrarians who have inhabited this forum over the years, I suggest to you the same thing I suggested to them.  You have a spin you believe in, so start your own Blog and/or Forum to bring together people of like minds to your own.  That is what I had to do.  You want to build a movement?  It's a place to start.  Chances of success are small, but unless you make the effort you got no leg to stand on.

If you do start your own Blog/Forum, please let us know.

I wish you all the best and I think you are a good man, and a smart one.  Just not one who is very realistic at the moment.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
In my defense, the rules of English are complicated, and the only way to master them are via route memorization.
Oh dear gods I (almost) hate to do this to you LD, but I just can't resist: It's 'rote' not 'route'...
--Radio, self-appointed junior SG cadet
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 26, 2017, 10:47:53 AM
My motto is hope for the best, be prepared for the worst, and expect something you never even thought of.
As much as I love you, JDH (and I do), I find your motto, as stated here, as way too passive.
With my family history, I was prepared to get cancer at some point, but I never expected a strawberry-sized lump on my tongue....

The motto may seem passive, but there is much action embedded it.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 10:56:13 AM
Ughh! Sorry to hear about your tongue. Are you having to get cancer treatment, JD?
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 10:57:51 AM
In my defense, the rules of English are complicated, and the only way to master them are via route memorization.
Oh dear gods I (almost) hate to do this to you LD, but I just can't resist: It's 'rote' not 'route'...
--Radio, self-appointed junior SG cadet

See...I can't help but fuck it up.  Too bad I can't blame it on neurology.  Feel free to point out my mistakes.  I'm not going to take offense.  I guess I'm the village spelling idiot.  So be it! 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 11:05:32 AM

Indeed, as I mentioned to JRM in my Au Revoir post, this is the DOOMSTEAD DINER.  The title itself advertizes the spin of the site.  If you are not on board with the idea Industrial Civilization is DOOMED, then you are going to be swimming upstream here all the way.


This post really clarifies why I was wasting my time in here.  RE apparently does not think I would agree that Industrial Civilization is Doomed.  !!!

Despite all of my thousands and thousands of words in here, RE has never grokked that I GET THAT.  I just don't think it has to go down of a sudden and land in a flaming, smoking, stinking ruin. It could be transformed on its way down, salvaging only the best and dumping all of that which could not and should not be carried forward into the future.  No matter how much detailed discussion I've brought to bare on that, RE and most others in here have never understood me. No matter how well or carefully I articulated my veiws I have been misunderstood (either deliberately or otherwise).  It's maddening! 

Okay. 

Over and out.

I just thought we were having a conversation and discussing the various points of view one can come up with regards to collapse.

There is a world-wide movement called Transition that aims at powering down human society. Although it hasn't been the kind of movement that changes the world overnight, it hasn't died out completely, and it gives a voice to the kind of changes you'd like to see. I personally embrace many of the ideas of Transition....local societies and local economies and less dependence on FF's and the power grid.

No real reason to abandon ship here just because of a little frustration, or a couple of unproductive threads. 

No matter how much detailed discussion I've brought to bare on that, RE and most others in here have never understood me.

That'd be bear, and not bare.


Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 11:09:20 AM
Actually, fellas, I'm not coming back for more in the future, and this is almost certainly my last post here.
I'm done.
Well, I for one will miss you if you are gone for good.
RE
Only been hanging around in the Diner for a couple weeks, but there seems to be a pattern emerging here.
In that time I have witnessed the apparent departure of two members (haven't seen anything from Golden Oxen since the brouhaha a week ago or so) after a lot of insult and torment over what looked to me like trivial issues, or a failure to try to understand someone's position.  Again, I haven't been watching long enough to know all that's transpired.  I know that I definitely dislike some of the tone here.  People's minds are rarely if ever changed by insult and harassment, but by friendly engagement and well crafted persuasion.

Admittedly, this is somebody else's sandbox, and if any of us don't like how its owner treats us, we can take our toys and go home.  But how many neighbor kids can you alienate before you're left all alone?  Looking at this site's stats indicate that it has been a much busier place in the past, apparently peaking some years ago.  For all it has to offer, it appears that there are actually only a few people that frequent the Diner.  Where are all the other Kollapsniks that we know are out there?  Hell, I know a couple dozen right here in my community.

Gonna have a tough time attracting people to intentional real world communities if you can't even get along in cyberspace.

Respectfully,
Greg
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 26, 2017, 11:19:00 AM
JRM doesn't really have the constitution for this, he's not an asshole.  Kind of a prototypical New Age Sensitive Guy.
I've always heard it referred to as a Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG).... mainly from Heartless Bitches International (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/).
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 11:24:26 AM
In my defense, the rules of English are complicated, and the only way to master them are via route memorization.
Oh dear gods I (almost) hate to do this to you LD, but I just can't resist: It's 'rote' not 'route'...
--Radio, self-appointed junior SG cadet

See...I can't help but fuck it up.  Too bad I can't blame it on neurology.  Feel free to point out my mistakes.  I'm not going to take offense.  I guess I'm the village spelling idiot.  So be it!
If I even suspected that you'd take offense I would back off.  I'm glad you're a good sport.
I have a couple of potential advantages in this area:
1. I served six years at a Catholic parochial school -- that should be explanation enough -- under the tutelage of a 300 to 400 pound nun (hard to tell under big black habit (gown)) we called Wart Hog behind her back.  She called us "impudent ill-bred little fools" to our faces.  She was the school's English teacher. We. Learned. English.

2.  I have a natural knack for the language; I'm wired for it.  Learned to read really young and have read voraciously ever since.  That helps a lot.

3.  I cheat.  My posts are double and triple checked, edited, corrected, and sometimes even moved into a word processor temporarily to make sure everything checks out okay.  I keep Dictionary.com on speed dial.  It's part of why I'm so damn slow at responding.

Don't sweat it, it's fun calling out the booboos.  Ironically, I find that the local SG is one of the worst offenders, no doubt because he's a friggin' text machine.  I bet his fingers bleed at times.
--Greg
p.s.  This post has been edited even after posting...
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 11:28:24 AM
Actually, fellas, I'm not coming back for more in the future, and this is almost certainly my last post here.
I'm done.
Well, I for one will miss you if you are gone for good.
RE
Only been hanging around in the Diner for a couple weeks, but there seems to be a pattern emerging here.
In that time I have witnessed the apparent departure of two members (haven't seen anything from Golden Oxen since the brouhaha a week ago or so) after a lot of insult and torment over what looked to me like trivial issues, or a failure to try to understand someone's position.  Again, I haven't been watching long enough to know all that's transpired.  I know that I definitely dislike some of the tone here.  People's minds are rarely if ever changed by insult and harassment, but by friendly engagement and well crafted persuasion.

Admittedly, this is somebody else's sandbox, and if any of us don't like how its owner treats us, we can take our toys and go home.  But how many neighbor kids can you alienate before you're left all alone?  Looking that this site's stats indicate that it has been a much busier place in the past, apparently peaking some years ago.  For all it has to offer, it appears that there are actually only a few people that frequent the Diner.  Where are all the other Kollapsniks that we know are out there?  Hell, I know a couple dozen right here in my community.

Gonna have a tough time attracting people to intentional real world communities if you can't even get along in cyberspace.

Respectfully,
Greg

I get along just fine with almost all people.  Just many of them have trouble getting along with me. lol.

How many forums and for how many years have you been doing this sort of thing?  I go back to before the Internet even existed, on the old Arpanet.

It's a tough medium overall.  Because it is mostly anonymous and there are no real consequences for being an asshole (other than eventually getting banned), people feel free to vent their spleen at each other and arguments get much more vehement than they usually do IRL.  IRL, you get into the kind of arguments we periodically get into here, and somebody throws a punch.  You can't do that over the internet, the closest you come is to put up a ridiculing pic or vid.

I will compose up an analysis of some of our more recent Walkabouts from the Diner.  Perhaps I can help you understand the nature of the medium and be able to tolerate it better.  It's quite difficult really.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 26, 2017, 11:33:32 AM
Ughh! Sorry to hear about your tongue. Are you having to get cancer treatment, JD?
Got a PET scan Friday, seeing about a course of treatment Monday the 6th.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 11:34:55 AM
Scary. Keep us posted. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 11:40:25 AM
It's a tough medium overall.  Because it is mostly anonymous and there are no real consequences for being an asshole (other than eventually getting banned), people feel free to vent their spleen at each other and arguments get much more vehement than they usually do IRL.  IRL, you get into the kind of arguments we periodically get into here, and somebody throws a punch.  You can't do that over the internet, the closest you come is to put up a ridiculing pic or vid.
RE
I certainly can appreciate all that.  I do not, however, have to like it, or put up with it if I don't feel like it.
On the whole, time spent on the 'net is major fucking waste of precious time.  It's an amusement, and that's all.  IMHO, no one is going to have their life changed beyond what their own efforts to self-educate will accomplish.   They don't need to hang out in a virtual space getting harassed to become a productive Collapsiterian.
I sure as hell didn't.  I'll bet LD didn't either.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 11:43:34 AM
Ughh! Sorry to hear about your tongue. Are you having to get cancer treatment, JD?
Got a PET scan Friday, seeing about a course of treatment Monday the 6th.
Scary. Keep us posted. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
Ditto that here.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: azozeo on February 26, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
Ughh! Sorry to hear about your tongue. Are you having to get cancer treatment, JD?
Got a PET scan Friday, seeing about a course of treatment Monday the 6th.

Good luck with that my friend...
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 12:09:10 PM
It's a tough medium overall.  Because it is mostly anonymous and there are no real consequences for being an asshole (other than eventually getting banned), people feel free to vent their spleen at each other and arguments get much more vehement than they usually do IRL.  IRL, you get into the kind of arguments we periodically get into here, and somebody throws a punch.  You can't do that over the internet, the closest you come is to put up a ridiculing pic or vid.
RE
I certainly can appreciate all that.  I do not, however, have to like it, or put up with it if I don't feel like it.
On the whole, time spent on the 'net is major fucking waste of precious time.  It's an amusement, and that's all.  IMHO, no one is going to have their life changed beyond what their own efforts to self-educate will accomplish.   They don't need to hang out in a virtual space getting harassed to become a productive Collapsiterian.
I sure as hell didn't.  I'll bet LD didn't either.

I'm not sure I agree that the Diner is a waste of time (or the internet).  Although I understand your sentiment.  In the end you are sitting on your ass staring at a computer screen doing next to nothing. 

I spend a lot of time on the Diner.  I probably spend more time than I should.  It's not like watching tv as a waste of time though.  At least this is interactive and usually features various degrees of philosophy, and it has it's own psychology and sociology, of which I find interest.  My favorite activities have mostly been reading and writing.  I don't like people much in person, but I have a need for social interaction.  Here I get social interaction without the in person part, and I read, philosophize, receive and share ideas, and I write.  I also keep a blog Epiphany Now. http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/2017/01/plutocracy.html] [url]http://emtmusings.blogspot.com/2017/01/plutocracy.html (http://[url)[/url]  I am nowhere near as active of a blogger as I used to be. 

As far as the editing of posts go.  I correct red squiggles, and I try to be mindful, and I even re-read my posts after posting and edit where I find mistakes.  Sometimes I'll re-read a post and not correct an identified mistake.  It all depends on how I feel at the time.  I just don't see it as that big of a deal.  I don't treat every post as I would a blog because what's the point?  What, I might get made fun of virtually because I chronically fuck up the Queens proper English?  So ;)  My ego is just fine...and humble. 

I also make my life an open book here on the Diner.  I've always been that way.  I tell the truth, and I'm not afraid or feel as though I should hide.  The NSA has a file on me, and they have since I got myself kicked out of the Navy.  I won't live in fear, and I have nothing to hide, so why not share my life?  It's all just 1's and 0's in the end, and we all end up either pumped full of formaldehyde not rotting in a casket entombed in a over priced wooden box surrounded by concrete below ground...or in an urn in the end. 

I just hope to make it through life without being physically tortured at the Ministry of Health.     
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 26, 2017, 12:32:15 PM
I'm not sure I agree that the Diner is a waste of time (or the internet).  Although I understand your sentiment.  In the end you are sitting on your ass staring at a computer screen doing next to nothing. 
Exactly.  I would be ashamed to have you visit my farm for all the messes and unfinished projects, but here I sit cuz' it's cold and windy out there.  Though I am also putzing around the house and organizing my growing library of awesome how-to books.  I like books.  They don't need power to exist or be read.

2 + 2 =  That's you!  I've checked out your blog before -- that's you.  Nice writing.  Do more.

I just hope to make it through life without being physically tortured at the Ministry of Health.     
That line right there is why you should write more.  Classic!
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 12:38:51 PM
I'm not sure I agree that the Diner is a waste of time (or the internet).  Although I understand your sentiment.  In the end you are sitting on your ass staring at a computer screen doing next to nothing. 
Exactly.  I would be ashamed to have you visit my farm for all the messes and unfinished projects, but here I sit cuz' it's cold and windy out there.  Though I am also putzing around the house and organizing my growing library of awesome how-to books.  I like books.  They don't need power to exist or be read.

2 + 2 =  That's you!  I've checked out your blog before -- that's you.  Nice writing.  Do more.

I just hope to make it through life without being physically tortured at the Ministry of Health.     
That line right there is why you should write more.  Classic!

Thanks for the compliment Radio!   :)

I blog when the spirit fills me.  I've sort of gotten fatigued I think with blogging because I've said it all so many times.  You can only lament collapse in so many ways before it just gets tiring.  Especially when you spend as much time as I do in these god forsaken halls of internet debauchery.  Still...occasionally something will light a fire and I'll write a blog. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 12:48:22 PM
Actually, fellas, I'm not coming back for more in the future, and this is almost certainly my last post here.
I'm done.
Well, I for one will miss you if you are gone for good.
RE
Only been hanging around in the Diner for a couple weeks, but there seems to be a pattern emerging here.
In that time I have witnessed the apparent departure of two members (haven't seen anything from Golden Oxen since the brouhaha a week ago or so) after a lot of insult and torment over what looked to me like trivial issues, or a failure to try to understand someone's position.  Again, I haven't been watching long enough to know all that's transpired.  I know that I definitely dislike some of the tone here.  People's minds are rarely if ever changed by insult and harassment, but by friendly engagement and well crafted persuasion.

Admittedly, this is somebody else's sandbox, and if any of us don't like how its owner treats us, we can take our toys and go home.  But how many neighbor kids can you alienate before you're left all alone?  Looking at this site's stats indicate that it has been a much busier place in the past, apparently peaking some years ago.  For all it has to offer, it appears that there are actually only a few people that frequent the Diner.  Where are all the other Kollapsniks that we know are out there?  Hell, I know a couple dozen right here in my community.

Gonna have a tough time attracting people to intentional real world communities if you can't even get along in cyberspace.

Respectfully,
Greg

Some people come here to talk about collapse and how to adapt to the changing world. They get along fine.

Others come here to propound their personal POV, and they bring their sacred cows with them. The sacred cows tend to get the shit kicked out of them here.

In general, the ones who leave are the ones who aren't flexible. They are the ones who want to do one of several things...(a) be a cheerleader for some politician. (GO wants to trust Trump, because he needs a strong authority figure he can trust. Trump mostly gets excoriated here.)

or (b) wage war in the comments against some perceived injustice or unfairness:

Uncle Bob has problems with the feminist agenda and female social justice warriors. It has to with his personal experiences in his chosen field, which is full of female bosses, many of whom are off-the-scale ball busting bitches who use their gender to gain advantage in the healthcare bureaucracy he works in. He comes across as mysogynist, but he has some legitimate gripes. But nobody here wanted to completely accept his POV as the only correct one....and he too got real excited by the false hopes around a Trump (outsider) campaign, and he liked that Milo kid who just self-destructed in public this last week. He wanted to defend Breitbart, and it was along about then he went walkabout.

For GO, he has this idea that anybody should be able to log on here and say anything. He has his panties twisted because after four years, RE finally banned a guy we all knew was a troll and  FF industry shill. One person banned here, ever....and that after a million second chances. But that makes this forum, in his eyes, a place where censorship prevails.

Alan just wanted to go on about how great China is, and how bright the future is for the Chinese, and how China is going to take over the role of World Hegemon. He could write ten thousand words in thirty minutes, and he would.....and then disappear for a month or two. Bipolar? Probably.

Ashvin was/is a born-again Christian who swallowed the entire Christian Apologetics doctrine hook, line and sinker, and used his not inconsiderable writing skills and great intellect to try to prove to us beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus really lived, and that the Bible is our roadmap to Eternal Salvation. He finally graduated and got a job, and got a life, I guess.

I can't think of anyone else who just flat got run off. A good number of people who used to post on the forum were just fans of RE's writing who really weren't preppers, or at least never shared their own stories, just wanted to do an occasional drive-by snipe at some POV they disagreed with.

In general, this is a place anybody can write just about anything they want, but they will be called on to defend their POV, and their ideas might be questioned, and their sacred cows might start to whine after a while....

I find the Diner to be fairly congenial, for the most part. Just not many of us out there, and many who are....are trying to fly under the radar.

We had one really excellent prepper who freaked out when he was shown that being on the net made him visible. He didn't realize how easy it is to figure out exactly what somebody's IRL identity and address are for people who know how to look, and I think he dropped off the net altogether, forthwith. We never heard from him again.

Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 01:00:16 PM
We had one really excellent prepper who freaked out when he was shown that being on the net made him visible. He didn't realize how easy it is to figure out exactly what somebody's IRL identity and address are for people who know how to look, and I think he dropped off the net altogether, forthwith. We never heard from him again.

BC2K.  A real loss there.  Terrific Paranoia though, and yes he pretty much dropped off the net, t the point of deleting his email addys.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 01:02:43 PM
God, how could I have possibly forgotten Ashvin?   :laugh:

He was fun.  Especially with Jeebus coming out of left field.  I knew him back when he was blogging before the Diner.  What was the title of his blog? 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 01:06:15 PM
God, how could I have possibly forgotten Ashvin?   :laugh:

He was fun.  Especially with Jeebus coming out of left field.  I knew him back when he was blogging before the Diner.  What was the title of his blog?

Watson (Ashvin) was an Admin on The Automatic Earth with Ilargi (Roel) and Stoneleigh (Nicole).

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 01:07:19 PM
God, how could I have possibly forgotten Ashvin?   :laugh:

He was fun.  Especially with Jeebus coming out of left field.  I knew him back when he was blogging before the Diner.  What was the title of his blog?

Watson (Ashvin) was an Admin on The Automatic Earth with Ilargi (Roel) and Stoneleigh (Nicole).

RE

Yeah, but he had a blog too..."simple" something I think? 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: knarf on February 26, 2017, 01:29:03 PM
In the digital age we are in, I think it is a good idea to keep up with the current "memes" that people are attracted to by using the internet. It tells us the flow of the society in mass, and even world wide. I spend a lot of time writing music, and working around the farm. I get on the internet and it is nuts! I hardly read the news anymore, it is just weird melodrama. I have been on Quora, and it is a pretty good platform for asking any question you want, ( censored of course ) and then answer if you want. I like it because I can feel the concerns that people are currently having. I am Buddhist so I am on a pretty small Buddhist forum. I was getting tired of looking for news on my channel here as the election got rolling. I have checked in multiple times to check out what "memes" that have caught the diner's attention. I don't comment much, everything is too complicated to put into words, and I have been out of society for about 31 years now, and spent most of it in silence.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 01:34:17 PM
In the digital age we are in, I think it is a good idea to keep up with the current "memes" that people are attracted to by using the internet. It tells us the flow of the society in mass, and even world wide. I spend a lot of time writing music, and working around the farm. I get on the internet and it is nuts! I hardly read the news anymore, it is just weird melodrama. I have been on Quora, and it is a pretty good platform for asking any question you want, ( censored of course ) and then answer if you want. I like it because I can feel the concerns that people are currently having. I am Buddhist so I am on a pretty small Buddhist forum. I was getting tired of looking for news on my channel here as the election got rolling. I have checked in multiple times to check out what "memes" that have caught the diner's attention. I don't comment much, everything is too complicated to put into words, and I have been out of society for about 31 years now, and spent most of it in silence.

Well I respect you for that life of inner spiritual dedication.  I toyed with the idea of checking into a monastery before I got married and procreated. 

Now I have to service the role of husband and father and a life in the robes is no longer practical.  Maybe when my kids grow up? 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 01:34:59 PM
Ashvin is gaining a little weight, looks like. (I'm not outing him btw, his full name is all over the net.)

http://www.aplawg.com/attorney/ashvin-pandurangi/ (http://www.aplawg.com/attorney/ashvin-pandurangi/)
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 02:05:09 PM
I forgot to mention Knarf, the only practicing Buddhist monk on the Diner. Once a prodigious news aggregator. Lives a simple life on a lovely rural retreat with a creek and lots of beautiful trees. Only works to support his meditation practice. A fellow swineherd.

Always welcome on the Diner.

We have left the world of common sense, and the news has become Kabuki theater. I don't want to turn on my car radio anymore. I haven't watched regular TV in about 15 years, although I occasionally watch some show online if my wife drags me into it. NPR is skewing anti-Trump. Drudge is a neo-con shithole. I wouldn't click on Breitbart if they paid me a dollar a hit. Google News is a desert. Newser is second rate. Reddit is worthless. Zero Hedge is skewing to the alt-right more every day.

I only follow news about MJ legalization anymore. The rest depresses me. Most of the memes out there depress me.


Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 02:10:56 PM


I only follow news about MJ legalization anymore. The rest depresses me. Most of the memes out there depress me.

There is no shortage of news to be depressed about. 

I've got bamboo shooting!  Not sure if that is good news because when the temp drops back down and it snows next month the boo will be sorry it shot early. 

I look to have a bumper crop of shoots this year.  This is year four for about half of my bamboo.  Year five is when you can expect to have a full grove if your bamboo is healthy. 

Peaches and apples are blossoming as well.  I sure hope it doesn't freeze again...but I'll be shocked if it doesn't because it usually does.  But this year it has been abnormally warm. 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 26, 2017, 02:20:45 PM
I am away from home this week.  A friend has tapped his trees and is already making syrup.  That is 3 weeks early.  He's very ambitious having dropped 30000 on a boiler and tubing for 1500 trees this year... https://www.facebook.com/Esson-Creek-Maple-Bramham-Family-Maple-Syrup-Operation-464233190450935/ (https://www.facebook.com/Esson-Creek-Maple-Bramham-Family-Maple-Syrup-Operation-464233190450935/)
This just shows you how hi tech syrup has become.  Agribusiness as well.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 02:22:05 PM
Personally, I find all the Depressing Newz to be UPLIFTING!  :icon_sunny:  It all reinforces the fact I have been RIGHT!  :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

I visit the Google Newz Aggregator with ENTHUSIASM every day, since it makes it very Quick & EZ to find a Collapse Story to drop onto the r/gobalcollapse Newz Channel.  I hardly have to look anywhere else anymore!  Collapse is EVERYWHERE!

My Life's Work is Chronicling Collapse now, so none of this depresses me at all.  It's just more for me to write about and stay bizzy before I buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 02:26:15 PM
I am away from home this week.  A friend has tapped his trees and is already making syrup.  That is 3 weeks early.  He's very ambitious having dropped 30000 on a boiler and tubing for 1500 trees this year... https://www.facebook.com/Esson-Creek-Maple-Bramham-Family-Maple-Syrup-Operation-464233190450935/ (https://www.facebook.com/Esson-Creek-Maple-Bramham-Family-Maple-Syrup-Operation-464233190450935/)
This just shows you how hi tech syrup has become.  Agribusiness as well.

That's a lot of fancy equipment.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Nearingsfault on February 26, 2017, 02:29:34 PM
Yup.  Interest in maple bush has been picking up for the last few years.  They have had the lot forever and have decided to take the plunge.  The gear is incredible... and incredibly expensive.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 04:31:36 PM
God, how could I have possibly forgotten Ashvin?   :laugh:

He was fun.  Especially with Jeebus coming out of left field.  I knew him back when he was blogging before the Diner.  What was the title of his blog?

Watson (Ashvin) was an Admin on The Automatic Earth with Ilargi (Roel) and Stoneleigh (Nicole).

RE

Yeah, but he had a blog too..."simple" something I think?

Not prior to being Born Again and finding Jeezus far as I know.  That came in mid 2012 as I recall.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: luciddreams on February 26, 2017, 04:39:01 PM
God, how could I have possibly forgotten Ashvin?   :laugh:

He was fun.  Especially with Jeebus coming out of left field.  I knew him back when he was blogging before the Diner.  What was the title of his blog?

Watson (Ashvin) was an Admin on The Automatic Earth with Ilargi (Roel) and Stoneleigh (Nicole).

RE

Yeah, but he had a blog too..."simple" something I think?

Not prior to being Born Again and finding Jeezus far as I know.  That came in mid 2012 as I recall.

RE

No, he had a blog that was about economics and peak oil before he was born again with Jeebus.  I know because I was reading it.  This was around 2010.  I learned a lot about economics reading that blog, and that was before the Diner obviously.  I ran into him again on the Diner. 

I think his blog was called "Simple Planet." 
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Eddie on February 26, 2017, 04:46:46 PM
It's still up. Nothing posted since 2011, which coincides with his law school graduation.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on February 26, 2017, 09:23:01 PM
That's about when he started writing for TAE also and became an Admin there.  Roel & Nicole must have read his work on Simple Planet.  I never did.  First of his stuff I read was on TAE, prior to his finding Jeezus in around 2013.  Then he started that short lived Fundy Blog.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Ashvin on March 25, 2017, 05:23:15 AM
That's about when he started writing for TAE also and became an Admin there.  Roel & Nicole must have read his work on Simple Planet.  I never did.  First of his stuff I read was on TAE, prior to his finding Jeezus in around 2013.  Then he started that short lived Fundy Blog.

RE

It's nice to know the memories of my past blogging endeavors live on!

Actually it's nicer to have those fond memories live on amongst fellow bloggers than the writings themselves. Looking back, it's easy to see how misguided my Doomer analysis and predictions were. I know this apostasy can never be forgiven in the Doomer circles, but it's true.

Eddie, a little weight is an understatement! I really need to update that picture as I have been in better shape lately. But I sprained my ankle playing basketball this week, so I'll probably gain it back shortly  :-\
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 25, 2017, 06:08:35 AM
That's about when he started writing for TAE also and became an Admin there.  Roel & Nicole must have read his work on Simple Planet.  I never did.  First of his stuff I read was on TAE, prior to his finding Jeezus in around 2013.  Then he started that short lived Fundy Blog.

RE

It's nice to know the memories of my past blogging endeavors live on!

Actually it's nicer to have those fond memories live on amongst fellow bloggers than the writings themselves. Looking back, it's easy to see how misguided my Doomer analysis and predictions were. I know this apostasy can never be forgiven in the Doomer circles, but it's true.

Eddie, a little weight is an understatement! I really need to update that picture as I have been in better shape lately. But I sprained my ankle playing basketball this week, so I'll probably gain it back shortly  :-\

(http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/holmeswatson2.jpg)

Watson! Gr8 2 C U!  :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

How goes the Lawyering?  What are you doing these days?  Did u get married?

Our words live on the Google Servers forever (well until the chip are vaporized when the Sun goes Red Giant anyhow).  You can't unthink or unwrite anything, even if you later come to not agree with yourself.  It's the legacy of your thinking if you chose to write it down.

I am fortunate in this area, I can go back to the oldest stuff I wrote on the net and can still search down (20 years back about), and I still agree with everything I wrote.  I have been very consistent in my thinking over these years.

Don't be a stranger.  Always interesting to here your latest POV.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Ashvin on March 26, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: RE link=topic=9070.msg127771#msg127771 date

Watson! Gr8 2 C U!  :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

How goes the Lawyering?  What are you doing these days?  Did u get married?

Our words live on the Google Servers forever (well until the chip are vaporized when the Sun goes Red Giant anyhow).  You can't unthink or unwrite anything, even if you later come to not agree with yourself.  It's the legacy of your thinking if you chose to write it down.

I am fortunate in this area, I can go back to the oldest stuff I wrote on the net and can still search down (20 years back about), and I still agree with everything I wrote.  I have been very consistent in my thinking over these years.
Quote

I don't see that as being fortunate for you, RE. You have just defined "confirmation bias" as it applies to you. I seem to remember quite a few predictions of imminent doom off your keyboard, I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 26, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: azozeo on March 26, 2017, 02:47:00 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Technically speaking, trajectory is parabolic.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 26, 2017, 03:27:25 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Technically speaking, trajectory is parabolic.

Only idealized in a vacuum.  If the object is not symmetrical and/or rotating and/or fired into a headwind, it can take wildly different trajectories.

Collapse appears to be taking a "Seneca Cliff" trajectory.  This would be most akin to a "Knuckleball" trajectory in baseball.  They drop off the map in a hurry.

http://www.youtube.com/v/_npsLayG9s8

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: azozeo on March 26, 2017, 04:07:24 PM
Straight up, straight down, details.....
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 26, 2017, 04:17:02 PM
Straight up, straight down, details.....

Well of course.  What goes Up, must come Down.  "The Devil is in the Details.   :evil4:

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Ashvin on March 26, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Our priorities should be based on the timeline or the complete lack of one. Blogging about doom and only doom doesn't make much sense on a vague trajectory.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 26, 2017, 05:51:29 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Our priorities should be based on the timeline or the complete lack of one. Blogging about doom and only doom doesn't make much sense on a vague trajectory.

I disagree with that notion.

Take the example of a farmer who lives in a generally well watered neighborhood, but does not know precisely when a drought will come, other than he knows they do come periodically.

Would it be unproductive for this farmer not to discuss with other farmers in the neighborhood how they might prepare for the inevitable drought?  Build some cisterns maybe?  Would you advise said farmer to ignore that a drought is inevitable, since he has plenty of water right now and can't precisely predict when a drought will arrive?

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: Ashvin on March 26, 2017, 06:01:35 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Our priorities should be based on the timeline or the complete lack of one. Blogging about doom and only doom doesn't make much sense on a vague trajectory.

I disagree with that notion.

Take the example of a farmer who lives in a generally well watered neighborhood, but does not know precisely when a drought will come, other than he knows they do come periodically.

Would it be unproductive for this farmer not to discuss with other farmers in the neighborhood how they might prepare for the inevitable drought?  Build some cisterns maybe?  Would you advise said farmer to ignore that a drought is inevitable, since he has plenty of water right now and can't precisely predict when a drought will arrive?

RE

It would be unproductive for the farmer to do that all or even 90% of the time. This is what collapse bloggers mostly do - preach the Flood like Noah minus the revelation.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: RE on March 26, 2017, 06:42:32 PM
I would hope you can at least admit those were misguided or premature or whatever.

I have acknowledged many times that my timeline wasn't correct at the beginning.  Trajectory remains correct however.

RE

Our priorities should be based on the timeline or the complete lack of one. Blogging about doom and only doom doesn't make much sense on a vague trajectory.

I disagree with that notion.

Take the example of a farmer who lives in a generally well watered neighborhood, but does not know precisely when a drought will come, other than he knows they do come periodically.

Would it be unproductive for this farmer not to discuss with other farmers in the neighborhood how they might prepare for the inevitable drought?  Build some cisterns maybe?  Would you advise said farmer to ignore that a drought is inevitable, since he has plenty of water right now and can't precisely predict when a drought will arrive?

RE

It would be unproductive for the farmer to do that all or even 90% of the time. This is what collapse bloggers mostly do - preach the Flood like Noah minus the revelation.

Well, if people aren't listening, you have to keep hammering down on the point until they do.  In the words of Illuminati Scumbag Winston Chuchill:

(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-if-you-have-an-important-point-to-make-don-t-try-to-be-subtle-or-clever-use-a-pile-driver-hit-winston-churchill-37191.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: azozeo on March 27, 2017, 03:01:07 AM
I am of the mindset to look at both points with the data I've collected.
Doom/collapse/change is all around us, 24/7-365. However so is resonate ascension. The ying-yang is a balanced field.
Title: Re: Diner-SUN☼ Possibilists
Post by: jdwheeler42 on March 27, 2017, 03:19:24 AM
Our priorities should be based on the timeline or the complete lack of one. Blogging about doom and only doom doesn't make much sense on a vague trajectory.
I disagree with that notion.

Take the example of a farmer who lives in a generally well watered neighborhood, but does not know precisely when a drought will come, other than he knows they do come periodically.

Would it be unproductive for this farmer not to discuss with other farmers in the neighborhood how they might prepare for the inevitable drought?  Build some cisterns maybe?  Would you advise said farmer to ignore that a drought is inevitable, since he has plenty of water right now and can't precisely predict when a drought will arrive?
It would be unproductive for the farmer to do that all or even 90% of the time. This is what collapse bloggers mostly do - preach the Flood like Noah minus the revelation.

Well, if people aren't listening, you have to keep hammering down on the point until they do.  In the words of Illuminati Scumbag Winston Chuchill:

(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-if-you-have-an-important-point-to-make-don-t-try-to-be-subtle-or-clever-use-a-pile-driver-hit-winston-churchill-37191.jpg)
I agree with Ashvin that it is a waste of a farmer's time to spend most of his time talking about an upcoming drought.  But RE is not a farmer.  RE cannot actually do all that much BUT talk/write.  So, it is a productive use of his time to write about topics that most people do not want to discuss, even though they are vitally important.