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Messages - luciddreams

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1
Who is saying that black lives don't matter to begin with?  I mean other than actual white supremacist that wear robes are are actually racist.  What percentage of the population are they?  It's probably even a smaller percent of the population than that taken up by transgender folk.  It's a very small percentage. 

Going and making someone out to be a racist just because they think that all lives matter is just dumb. 

Black lives matter, as a movement, appears to mean that black lives matter more than other lives.  It's not about equality, it's about anger.  It really is more a reflection of the economic disparity in the fsoa.  That's not about race, it's about haves and have nots. 

Whites are killed by cops as well, but you don't know any of their names.  Tony Timpa comes to mind, but I only know that name because George Floyed died, after Timpa I might add.  Nobody has gone and made Timpa into a saint.  I just don't buy that cops are racist as a while.  I'm sure there are racist cops out there, but it's got to be a very small minority. 

The fact is that there is more black crime in America due to poverty than any other factor.  There is more police violence perpetrated on blacks due to that fact.  It's not because we have an epidemic of racist cops. 

To be a racist you have to hate somebody just because they are a different race.  That's what racism is.  I don't hate any race.  I don't care about race.  I think that's the majority in Murika these days.  It's just not an issue for the most part.  Now it is, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.  I think people lost their minds during the covid lockdown.  That's got a lot to do with it.  People are generally getting screwed these days, people of any color.  Collapse is starting to bite down.  It just so happens that this was the movement that was canned and ready to go, George Floyd set it off, and here we are.  I also think this has a lot to do with social media. 

At any rate, I'm done arguing about it.  I just don't care enough about this non-issue to continue giving it any of my attention.  I'm not on social media.  Maybe that's why I haven't lost my mind to this madness. 

2
To disagree with BLM's agenda is not synonymous with being a racist. 

Yes, it is. This is where we disagree.

Are we going to pretend that this country was not built on chattel slavery until 1865, and then legal slavery after that? that civil rights to formerly enslaved persons were not denied via a combination of domestic terror and legal constructs until at least 1965, and continue via a variety of other means (including voter suppression) to the present day? Are going to pretend that it was not built on relocation and extermination of native Americans? Are we going to pretend that for black men in America, it is open season every day for "warrior cops" with no bag limit? And that US incarcerates more citizens than. any nation. on earth, with the vast majority being black?

The United States has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. With 655 inmates per 100 thousand of population, the U.S. is by far the leader among large industrialized nations in incarceration. Russia comes closest at 381. Blacks comprise 14 per cent of the total US population, but account for 34% of the total male prison population, white males 29%, and Hispanic males 24%. So nearly 60 percent of the incarcerated population is nonwhite.

Don't dodge me by saying that I need to go reading and get re-educated.  That's not an argument.  You can't show how I'm a racist because I'm not, nor is Eddie.  We've all met in person, we've broke bread together, drank together, and generally had a good time together.  You are being unreasonable.

I have no need to dodge you. I am confronting you. Get your facts straight and your mind right. Racist is as racist does. the fact that we have met and been collegial has nothing to do with the issues in question.

Answer this: if you "disagree with the BLM agenda," then whose is it that you do support? If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Alright, why don't you put those stats together for crime rate by race.  Blacks commit 50% of the crime.  It's convenient to just sweep that under the rug and not talk about it though.  If they commit more crime, and if we have a law enforcement system that works, then we would expect the black incarceration rate to be higher. 

It's not so much that I disagree with BLM's agenda in total.  It's that I'm not free to disagree with ANYTHING about BLM without being labeled a racist.  That is a dangerous attribute to this movement.  If I argue anything on their list I'm a racist.  I'm not a racist, no matter how many times BLM, you, or anybody else say that I am.  I'm not a racist because I know that I don't care what skin color you have.  I view it just as I view hair color.  It's just a fact of biology.  However I do disagree with a lot of BLM.  So now I'm considered a racist because I won't swallow the entire enchilada. 

But I'm not a racist.  That is the truth as I know it.  I should know better than anyone what's in my own mind. 

Now for the history of Murika.  Yeah, and?  We MADE FUCKING PROGRESS racially in Murika.  Haven't we?  It's not 1950 down in Mississippi now, it's 2020 and the biggest issue has become the color of ones skin.  At a time where we have more interracial marriages, black cops, black lawyers, black correctional officers, black wardens, black politicians, and even had a black president, black actors, black entertainers, black entrapraneurs, black professors and presidents of colleges, black CEO's.  What the fuck is everybody talking about?  It's not racist Murika any longer. 

There are more blacks in professional basketball.  I assert that this is not fair.  If it were fair there should only be 14% of blacks professionally playing basketball.  At least, if we are to use your logic about demographic numbers and those incarcerated. 

I believe that blacks should have the same rights (they do), and I believe they should have a fair shake out in society.  There is room to argue for the BLM cause there.  I will concede that it's not completely fair based on race.  But it's not that way because of systemic racism.  It's not that way because of STEM or enlightenment values, or science. 

A lot of it has to do with positive feedback loops due to poverty and economic injustice.  It creates a space for crime to make a lot of sense.  If you do the crime you will likely get arrested and do the time.  If you do a lot of violent crime you are much more likely to be killed by a cop.  But we can't talk about any of that.  It doesn't fit the injustice due to race narrative. 

Guess what, if you are black and law abiding then you will likely not be incarcerated.  You can find plenty of examples of innocent people locked up.  They will have black skin.  They will also have white skin. 

I do believe that all lives matter.  Now, since the world has collectively gone insane, that makes me a racist.  However, I'm not a racist.  As a country we have lost our fucking minds.  Common sense packed up and left for some other planet. 


3


You loudly declaim you can "do your own research." Then feel free. These disagreements, and there have been many, are splashed all over the many threads here. I don't feel the need to take on your re-education as a project.

Re-education?  I'm not asking to be a project of yours Surly.  I don't feel the need to go excavating through the tombs of the Diner threads to find examples either.  I don't come here to do a bunch of research.  I've got a line of books on my docket all waiting to be read.  I come here for discourse and the exchange of ideas via conversation. 

Give me an example of something racist I have said or done.  Just the nearest one to now that you can cough up.  I submit that you can't because I'm not and don't say racist shit.  That's the problem with BLM.  To disagree is to automatically be a racist because, why, "black lives matter, and you are anti black lives therefore you are racist."  That's why it's a scam.  You can't even question it without being labeled a racist.  How is that educated thinking? 
Quote
Black POTUS? You mean the one that Senate Republicans swore, on the night of his inauguration, to stonewall and oppose by any means possible with the goal of making sure he could achieve nothing? THAT Black POTUS? Yeah, swell. I guess that is supposed to mean that nothing is about race anymore because nothing is ever about race. Fuck that. Trump mis Cracker America's revenge for Obama, and Trump has made it his business to obliterate every single thing Obama touched with the assiduousness of Egyptian temple priests erasing the carvings of the last, hated pharaoh.

Yeah, that POTUS.  He was a black president.  That's progress.  How could we be a racist country and elect a black president?  That makes no sense.  Sure, there are racist in America, there are racist in every country.  That doesn't mean all of Murika is nothing but blacks and white racist.  To disagree with BLM's agenda is not synonymous with being a racist. 

Don't dodge me by saying that I need to go reading and get re-educated.  That's not an argument.  You can't show how I'm a racist because I'm not, nor is Eddie.  We've all met in person, we've broke bread together, drank together, and generally had a good time together.  You are being unreasonable.

4

As far as blacks are concerned, if  you have any black in you then you are considered black.  I get that information from this guy


If your great-great grandmother was Jewish, you're Jewish.

RE

In Murika we are all mongrels. 

5
It's astonishing how many YouTube videos there are about the "Evergreen Spring".

Here's another.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mJ109-BvQV4&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/mJ109-BvQV4&fs=1</a>

https://youtu.be/mJ109-BvQV4

Watched it.  He's clearly a racist student.  If you want to have any kind of debate about anything at all you are a racist sir.  Stop questioning the BLM narrative.  You've been warned! 

The students narrative matches well with what I know about what happened at Evergreen. 


6
We had a black potus.

Obama was an Oreo.


RE

Wow!  Talk about "micro-aggression."  That one might even be a "macro-aggression."  I'm sure our resident woke leader will let you know. 

As far as blacks are concerned, if  you have any black in you then you are considered black.  I get that information from this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Chatterton_Williams

He wrote a recent memoir titled "Self Portratin In Black and White."  His father was a black sociology professor and his mother was blonde and blue eyed white.  His father raised him as a black man and insisted that there family was a black family.  Which made his mother a black white lady.  Very interesting story. 

7

Further more, what the fuck is your problem Surly? 

My "problem" is that I clear-mindedly recognize what racism is, and will not tolerate it here, no matter what drag it likes to dress up in. I will continue to call it out and cut the nut-sack out of pious hypocrisy.

As to the rest, read for comprehension. I write clearly enough, and leave little room for ambiguity.

And if you just want to complain, follow the directions to the dingleberries.

Where is the racism Surly?  That's my confusion.  I don't see anyone being racist here.  How is Eddie being a racist?  I think you are suffering from "racism of the gaps."  You see it everywhere.  You see it where it is not. 

We had a black potus.  The president at Evergreen when the protesting started was a black man. 

The stats on police brutality match perfectly with the crime numbers.  Blacks are more likely to get arrested, but they also do more of the violent crime.  I'm all for reforming how we police, but to just get rid of the police is madness. 

I don't see you pointing out how Eddie, or I, are being racist.  Could you do that?  Please. 

8
https://youtu.be/FH2WeWgcSMk

I'd recommend starting there.  It's a series of documentary videos done by an Australian named Mike Nayna.  It's my understanding that he was in the area on another project when Evergreen erupted.  A lot of the video are videos that were taken by students and faculty from their smart phones.  You can actually see a lot of what went down.  I found it very hard to watch.  Especially the bit about the canoe.  I was just embarrassed for them really. 

Bret was told that to even ask for proof of racism was in fact racist. 

For some reason the embed didn't work.  Just youtube "Mike Nayna." 

9
You have said that I owe my humble success in life...which is not even all that much...to my "white privilege".

You owe your humble success in life to being a part of a very large Government Sponsored Criminal Racket (GSCR), the Medical Industry.  You are wildly overpaid for being essentially a Tooth Technician.  You don't work any harder than a Lumper on the Loading Docks at a Target DC.  But you get paid a shit load more than he does!  lol.

RE

I can't tolerate this any longer.  I do believe that Eddie was gracious enough to fix your fucked up cigarette, lack of flossing and brushing, lack of using Listerine or any other mouth wash, lack of any good dental hygiene mouth...basically low rent red neck, dirt neck, drunk mouth...for free...or close to it.

No, he charged me for it, and it was not anywhere near what the Mexian Dentista did for me.

RE

Is that so? 

Does that take into account the cost of getting yourself to Mexico and paying to stay there? 

I spit some invective your way, but I personally know Eddie, as do you, we have hung out together.  I don't understand why you attack him like you do.  You attack his profession.  A profession of which took years of school to qualify for. 

Would you let one of those lumpers handle your dentistry?  I wouldn't.  They can hardly speak outside of a creole language.  If you are honest then you will know that's true.  I've met these people.  I've met them all over the U.S. I wouldn't let them operate on my mouth because they have no idea outside of a pallet jack. 

I would let Eddie operate on my mouth.  I'd be confident that he would do a competent job.  I'd be happy to pay him for his service. 

It strikes me that you attack your closest allies.  You strike your closest friends.  The Diner regulars are your closest friends.  Yet you seem to care very little about us.  Why is that? 

My guess is that it has something to do with your pronouncement that you have the power of God on this forum.  Nice!  Or maybe it has something to do with little child RE? 

All the way to beneath the ground just in front of some complicated stones you spent 10's of thousands of dollars on. 

How many mosquito nets could that have purchased?  How many lives could that have saved.  Captain Karl!  At least your DNA will be encapsulated in a never to be found spot until the sun goes red giant.  That's impressive  :emthup:


10
You have said that I owe my humble success in life...which is not even all that much...to my "white privilege".

You owe your humble success in life to being a part of a very large Government Sponsored Criminal Racket (GSCR), the Medical Industry.  You are wildly overpaid for being essentially a Tooth Technician.  You don't work any harder than a Lumper on the Loading Docks at a Target DC.  But you get paid a shit load more than he does!  lol.

RE

I can't tolerate this any longer.  I do believe that Eddie was gracious enough to fix your fucked up cigarette, lack of flossing and brushing, lack of using Listerine or any other mouth wash, lack of any good dental hygiene mouth...basically low rent red neck, dirt neck, drunk mouth...for free...or close to it.  That is he fixed your fucked up mouth.

Then you go and bust his balls for the money he makes.  WTF is wrong with you?

I'd gladly pay Eddie more than market value to fix my mouth.  He'd do it to.  He'd probably do it for free because he knows me.  However I'd insist that he take my money because he provides a very valuable service.  To equate that with hand fork lumpers at a loading dock is to be out to lunch in more ways than I can come up with analogies for.  What the fuck is your problem RE?

Further more, what the fuck is your problem Surly? 

I'm smarter than that?  What the fuck do you imagine I am?  Am I some malleable substance that conforms to your ideal of what I am?  Smarter than what?  I'm as smart as my own critical mind is.  I take in information and validate or vilify it.  I've got a lot of experience to do this with.  I've said often, and I'll say it again for the benefit of those who are reading this and have not been following for the past ten years on the Diner, about my experience. 

You can watch my ego change over the years.  You can do that here as well as on Epiphany Now.  I'm vulnerable in a poetic way.  I have no problem surrendering to vulnerability.  It's now about my ego here, it's about exploration and self actualization.  However I've come to realize that so much of what goes on here is about ego aggrandizement.  It's not about truth, it's about a show, and ego, and being seen as winning.  That's intellectual bad faith.  You can link articles and be outraged.  I have no interest in linked articles. 

I know how to read.  I know how to use the net.  I know how to research.  I don't need your stupid fucking links to some other place on the net.  Speak your piece.  Don't link it.  I won't click the links.  I don't come here for that. 

Lastly, I'm honesty.  I believe in honesty throughout.  Vulnerable honesty.  If all you've got is bullying critique then go fuck yourself.  If it's just about being seen as the victor then you are a small worm.  We should be vetting ideas to come to a consensus.  Or as the weird wizzard of green wizzardy has coined it, a "dissensus."  (possibly spelled differently).  We should be think tanking our way into a viable future here.  This could be a think tank if there wasn't so much ad hom bullshit.  That in the service of just appearing to be intellectually superior.

Let me ask one last question.  What good does ad hom in the service of being correct do for anyone? 

How about some unique ideas? 

Feel free to quote anything I've said to attack it and make your ego feel bigger than it is. 

11

Capitalism simply concentrates "wealth" (really, pseudo-wealth, or money) in the hands of a few while making everyone else poor, or requiring the moderately well off to spend their whole lives working to maintain their standard of living. And capitalism MUST destroy the biosphere, ecosystems, species, habitats... life on Earth. And it must make human habitats into nasty, ugly, polluted places. It cannot allow a healthy world, and depends on ugliness and death for its version of "progress, success, development...".

Capitalism is an evil empire.

I would say that Capitalism as it has been is an evil empire.  It's similar to the U.S. as a whole.  The constitution and the bill of rights are both amazing documents that have stood up remarkably well for hundreds of years now.  It is a resilient way to create a democracy.  Granted it's not perfect.  It's far from perfect, but it's the best humanity has produced to date.  I feel the same about capitalism. 

A lot of facets of BAU need to change.  Lobbyist need to be outlawed just for starters.  Lobbyist are a huge cancer in the body of a democracy.  Government regulations need to be beefed up on big business.  Amazon and the like need to pay more than their fair share of taxes rather than no taxes.  There are many ways taxes could be levied to create a LOT of money.  I'm talking specifically about income tax.  If the wealthiest 5% of Americans paid a flat 20% on their wealth it would create trillions of dollars every year.  We could then take that money and use it to pay for UHC and a UBI of some kind.  Maybe just make it a basic allowance for housing and subsistence similar to how the military handles this matter.  Also we need to level the playing field with education as the meritocracy is no longer a meritocracy.  The rich can spend a lot of money educating their children and giving them a major head start. 

However this would still be capitalism.  I'm just spit balling here myself, but I imagine that's what Kdog referred to with "socialist capitalism."  There is no reason why the two can't coexist under an actual democracy.  This would provide everyone with a life where their needs are met and they are free to pursue whatever interest them.  However, if what interest a person is making more money to have a better life they will have the means to do so in a fair way.  They can pursue free education that will allow them to contribute to the betterment of human kinds predicament.  We will happily pay money for their creations just as we do now.  Or we can just be.

Everything is so fucking polarized these days.  The left/right paradigm is old and wore out.  There is no reason why we should be forced to chose between shitty and perhaps a bit less shitty but still shitty.  The BLM movement is misplaced.  The anger is real and valid but the target is wrong.  Yes there is racism, just as their is terrorism.  There will always be racism.  Even if the government wrote a 10 trillion dollar check and all descendants of slavery in America got a big ass check.  There would still be racism.  And there would still be blacks that would be insulted at the suggestion that they could just be bought off.  The first iteration of OWS had the target correct, at least they were hitting in the vicinity of the correct place. 

The polarized binary is a mental trap that we are controlled by.  I have to guess that this is an intentional strategy being used against us.  There is never just two options.  There are always more than two options.  There are as many options as we can conceive of. 

In the end the rich stay rich (and powerful) and the poor stay poor (and mostly powerless).  Idealistically we could fix that situation.  Realistically it seems to be a byproduct of our evolution as creatures of this Earth. 

12
What, then, is the real and actual -- substantive -- disagreement between Eddie and Surly, I wonder.

Are they simply caught up in misrepresenting one another and shadow-boxing? What in heaven's name is happening here?

Read for comprehension. I feel that both of us have made our points-- and our differences-- abundantly clear.

Eddie insists he is not a racist while using the same charged language and framing to make the same points they make. And this goes oil and on and on because, like his Confederate antecedents, he can't admit when he's beat.

More ad hom.

You are implying once again that I'm racist, simply because I do not agree with your extreme views. And if you have the idea that your repetitive, intellectually devoid rants have somehow "beaten" me, you are way more delusional that I thought.

It is NOT ad hom if true. And true it is. You do indeed use the same charged language, tropes, tools and techniques and framing to make the identical points racists make. You are in ideologue. And the only one delusional here is you.

Help yourself to the dingleberries.

No, actually I don't use the language, tropes (that's about your favorite word isn't it, tropes?) or the tools and techniques racists use. And..I am not a racist, no matter how many times you call me one.

But you ARE willing to do or say anything to try to smear me with that brush. Including gladly gilding the lily.

To a BLM sycophant like you, all white people are racist, by definition. But that is some crazy shit, Social Justice Man.

Better watch out or you might trip over your cape.

For fucks sake this is an active thread.  So much has been said that I want to respond to since my last post, but I can't keep up without taking notes.  At least it's lively.  I read everything, and now my response is just where my mind is now having read it all. 

First, nobody said shit about my observation that BLM is using Marxism after having condemned  STEM on the basis of white supremacy; on the basis of not many blacks and mostly white professors.  On the basis of the enlightenment values being European and therefore white.  The scientific method is a human tool.  All humans can use that tool, and they should use that tool.  It has nothing to do with race.  Just as Marxism has nothing to do with race.  It's about economics and sociology. 

The point I would like addressed is my observation about BLM wanting to abolish STEM due to it allegedly being about white supremacy while advocating for Marxism which was brought about by a white man.  Then debated endlessly by egg headed crackers for generations. 

Secondly, Eddie is not a racist.  Nor am I.  Nor am I an "eddie Jr" as RE has charged.  Just because I happen to agree with Eddie does not make me an eddie Jr. 

Thirdly, I happen to agree with Eddie because I agree with Bret Weinstein, Sam Harris, Paul Bloom, Jonathan Haidt...and many other Hederodox and "Intellectual Dark Web" thinkers.  My opinion, while often influenced by Eddie, does not make me automatically equal in thought. 

I see no reason why our current system cannot continue.  It just needs more taxation, regulation, and social programs like universal healthcare and perhaps even UBI.  Socialism as such does not work because it's antithetical to human nature.  We need to compete, and we need to be rewarded for our efforts.  It just needs to be fair.  UHC and UBI will level the playing field for fairness.  Higher taxation for the wealthiest 5% and more corporate regulation will reign in a lot of the wealth inequality.  We can use the gains to better enrich the lower classes with better education which will also help level the playing field. 

We will never all have the same, and we shouldn't, as that just doesn't relate to reality.  Some people can jump high, some people can run fast, some people can lift heavier weights, some people can paint beautiful pictures, some people can sing, some can play instruments, some are good at math.  We are not equal in ability.  We are equal in worth.  Yet some of us shine brighter than others.  Those of us who shine brighter should make more money.  They do that because we willingly and freely give them our money for the things that they create.  We can't all have the same amount of money, nor should we.  But we all should have our basic needs met and even more beyond that.  There is no reason why we can't all have more than our needs met. 

My main point here is that we don't need to rewrite our capitalist democracy.  We just need to overhaul it, add to it, and delete from it.  Marx is an old fart.  When he farted there was no such thing as a computer.  How could he possibly be relevant to a world with AI and a global internet connection? 

 

13
I'm a bit confused by BLM promoting Marxism.  Why would they do that? 

I'm confused because they want to shut down STEM due to it being a white institution.  At least to the extent that STEM can be said to be an institution all it's own.  I mean it's really just science right?  I mean STEM is at least the fruits of scientific exploration...and they want to shut that down because it's inherently racist right?  Because there are not enough black professors?  Am I understanding their hatred of STEM correctly? 

So by that measure WTF are they doing promoting Marxism?  Marx is a cracker.  He's as cracker looking as they come.  This is some conflated ass confused ass shit is what it is. 

They want to make an omelette with chocolate and no eggs is what it sounds like to me. 

My understanding is that BLM is employing "racism of the gaps."  If there are no blacks it's because it's inherently racist.  We don't have a race problem in Murika, we have a class problem.  OWS's first iteration was correct.  The top 5% is the enemy, and that just because they have way too much of the societal share.  However this can all be fixed with taxation and regulation.  No reason whatsoever to overhaul the system. 

And one more thing.  People talk about Marxism and socialism and communism like you have to have a fucking degree in that shit to get it.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  It doesn't take a genius to figure them out.  You can write a bible about it, but it's not hard to understand the real world implications.  Socialism does not work.  All it does is guarantee that the masses all have a shitty life while the 5% stay the same.  Communism works, but who wants to live that way?  That's just socialism with tyranny.  Bunch of fucking eggheads conflating and confusing something that is simple. 

14
Well fwiw what's going on with heterodox and the Intellectual Dark Web all strike me as the truth. 

Evergreen has most certainly now happened to the entire country. 

It seems that the fsoa has completely lost it's collective fucking mind.  What is happening now is fucking nuts. 

I have a lot of respect for Eddie.  It's a shame that he left, but I get it.  I was unaware that you had to be an extreme lefty socialist to get along here.  I happened to agree with Eddie.  I'm just interested in the truth, but these days that can be a very difficult proposition.  The truth, it seems, has packed up and left. 

Guess I'll follow Eddie out the door. 

15
You are embarrassing yourself.

You are the one who has embarassed himself.  It's pathetic.  Drop it.  It's a go nowhere argument, and not worth the time to spend arguing something we can never agree on, and in the grand scheme of  Collapse is not that important.  I am done with it.

RE

That's cool.  I'm not done with it.  Let me continue...

Of course you can't claim to know much about something if you have no experience with it.  That's a ridiculous notion.  If you have not had children than you cannot know what it's like to have your own children.  I have an idea what it's like to be a gymnastic coach, but I don't know what it's like because I've never experienced it.  I've taught kids that aren't mine how to do things.  I've coached kids as it were.  I know what it's like to coach kids, but that's not the same thing as teaching gymnastics as a coach for years as a profession.  What you are doing is claiming that you know how to raise children as well as somebody who has actually done it.  Well, I know how to coach gymnastics just as well as you do RE.  By your own logic you cannot refute that fact of mine (which is obviously not a fact as it's preposterous which is my point...and Surly's and Eddies).  Imagine Surly and Eddie agreeing on something  :laugh:

As to the choice to have children to begin with, I'd like to now comment. 

I personally spent a few years marinating on this question before finally deciding to move forward with it.  I started thinking about it before becoming collapse aware, and continued thinking about it after becoming collapse aware.  I arrived at a few conclusions and now have some others in retrospect having procreated twice, both by decision not accident. 

1.  There is a very strong biological element to procreation.  This may seem obvious.  That element weaves itself through our psyches and emotions.  It's not just a physical expression of biology.  I decided that procreation was one of the main experiences to being a biological creature, and it was one that I did not want to miss out on.  I felt that to deny myself that was in some way to deny myself a major expression of what it means to be human.  Calm down RE, I'm in no way saying I'm better than you are.  I'm just saying that it's a big life experience and I wanted to experience it.  I figured there would be a lot of wisdom to be gained via the experience and I was not wrong in that estimation. 

2.  In many ways the point of marriage is to service the family.  I personally saw little point in getting married and then not having children.  To me that's the point of marriage.  I understood even then, I was 26 when I got married, that I would fall out of love and that something more would be necessary to make a marriage a viable institution long term.  As a man I have another strong biological urge to spread my seed far and wide.  That is to have as many partners as I can.  That's biology.  We see that in the difference between men having a virtual endless supply of sperm while as women's supply is limited and fixed.  Why deny myself as many partners as I can acquire by agreeing to monogamy and then not having children?  That made no sense to me.  So a big part of my decision to procreate was because that's one of the big reasons why I decided to get married to begin with. 

3.  Procreation is an expression of love between humans.  At least it should be.  Obviously dick goes in baby comes out.  That's not what I'm talking about here.  We get to create beings that are half us.  This serves to strengthen the marriage, at least it should.  We are unified in our shared love of our children.  Our lives become largely about raising those children.  It fulfills the point of marriage...at least in my opinion.  My wife had our second child naturally.  That is not in the hospital.  I can say unequivocally that my love for her greatly intensified as I witnessed the unbelievable strength and courage it took for her to deliver our child naturally.  The experience for me was to actually meet a living goddess.  I watched her transform into a goddess before my eyes and it was fucking incredible.  It was very transformitive for her as well.   

4.  Lastly, the world has always been a fucked up place.  It's also always been a beautiful place.  It is both of those things.  Often it's just what side of optimism you want to be on.  You can see beauty or you can see ugly.  You can also see both as both exist.  As fucked up as the world is now, and it certainly appears to be getting more fucked up by the day, it's no where near as fucked up as it's been before.  It may well continue to get better.  Anything is possible.  It will get a whole lot worse before it gets better, but who is to say how or when or why.  I mean why don't you just kill yourself if it's so fucked up and getting even more fucked up?  What stops you?  Every second that you don't kill yourself is you voting for life as opposed to no life.  Who are you to deny new life?  Maybe your unborn child wants to come into this world.  Maybe they have something very important to do.  Maybe they are a Bodhisattva and you not bringing them into the world is keeping them from alleviating more suffering for all sentient life.  Maybe not.  Who's to know? 

Nobody can know. 

In the end I decided to procreate.  I decided to do that twice, and I'm glad that I did.  I'm not better than someone who does not have children just as they are not better than me.  It's not a fucking contest.  We are all free to live our lives as we see fit.  For me, my children has provided my life with a purpose.  I had purpose before children, but it was more optional.  I could be a vagabond bum if I wanted to.  I could die in a ditch with a needle in my arm.  Now I have a lot more reason to not do those things.  Whatever the case I experience it as meaningful.  Have kids, don't have kids, adopt kids...they all have merit. 

The above has just been my experience.  Take from it what you will. 

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