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Messages - Farmer McGregor

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91
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 19, 2017, 10:17:31 AM »
and Farmer McGregor, we are a 21st century internet family here and we fight a lot...just a heads up...also you'll probably be referred to as FM.

Or AM-FM. 

Or Radio.
Funny!  'Radio' reminds me that I used to hold a ham license -- still have all the equipment, now ancient vacuum tube behemoths.

As to the "21st century internet family here and we fight a lot" my initial response is to be a little disturbed by it.  Being a little thick-headed, I'm not sure where the friendly horseplay leaves off and vicious personal assaults begin.  One of the things I really hate about the internet is the opportunity to say (write) things that one would never (hopefully ever) say to someone's face.  I keep an eye on a number of blogs since I'm interested in the topics of peak oil and collapse -- realities that I'm convinced we must respond to -- but the only ones I regularly read the comments to are Club Orlov and JMG's ADR precisely because they are moderated and kept refreshingly civil.  Disagreement is to be expected, but I have a thin skin for incivility.  Flame-baiting trolls are in the category of brute beasts fit only to be caught and killed.

Being new to the forum side of this site, I'm only recently digging in to read old threads to get a feel for the various members, so I don't know the histories or relationships between them.  Again, I'm not good at discerning where teasing becomes meanness.  If I find myself being harassed in an unfriendly, uncivilized manner I will take my grub in a to-go box and go find some nice park to dine.  Frankly, GO, I'm wondering a little bit why you are still sitting at the counter; the accusation that "You're a disrespectful and insulting person" has not (yet?) been my observation.  Perhaps if I hang around long enough I will learn otherwise.  I hope not.

Not that I have no sense of humor or can't take friendly and ornery banter.  But life has been pretty effing hard on me with the result that I tend to be serious-minded.  My lifestyle choice to struggle to relearn the lost arts of self-sufficiency through sustainable small-scale regenerative agriculture and animal husbandry keeps me dangerously close to destitution -- I easily qualify for welfare but choose not to avail myself of it.  I have no disposable income and have not had even a short vacation in decades.  But compared to 80 or 90 percent of the globe's population -- especially from a long-term historical perspective -- I'm a rich man who lives in opulent luxury (a hundred year old farmhouse that should be bulldozed by modern American standards).  I'm drawn to The Diner by the topics that are regularly discussed here.  As a result of my circumstances, not being a bored retiree, I have little time for pointless nonsense even though it can be fun, though I will indulge in some occasionally.  Mostly I will just lurk.
Note to Mr. Chief Spelling Gestapo:  I love a good literacy challenge. :partytime2:
I was totally puzzled when I saw this in the comments on this forum topic (Driverless Cars etc.):
I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

Later I discovered
Fifty States Research Project etc...
Man-oh-man, I'd ask where to sign up, but some of these...
...involve collaboration between the appropriate department/s of state colleges or universities...
give me the whillies.

SG Alert!:  It's willies, not whillies.

RE
SG Chief of Police
on a completely different forum topic.  Clearly you are not above cross-forum intimidation!
The fact that you were totally correct just sucks!  :oops:
Fair enough.  You may be the boss here, but two can play at that game.  I'm a-gonna fetch out my fine-tooth dictionary comb and go a-huntin'. :whip:

I hope all involved here can keep The Diner a pleasant place to hang around.  Certainly this would make it more hospitable to other potential diners.
Cheers,
Farmer Greg

92
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 07:02:56 PM »

Yes Farmer, get your drift exactly. Half a century later and they haven't come close to what Mr Kubrick presented to us.

Glad you enjoyed the brief visit back in time. I'm one of the old timers, geezers :laugh: here and am fond of  reflecting on the past.

Makes you wonder what Kubrick could have done with the high-tech cinematic toys Hollywood plays with nowadays.
Things haven't necessarily gotten 'better' in spite of all the 'progress' we've made.  Brings to mind JMG's Retrotopia and related discussions (I assume you're up on that?).

Your profile fails to reveal your age.  So just how geezery (OMG watch out for the SG!) are you?  I'm not exactly young if I watched 2001 at first run in the theatre as a teenager, though I still have a fairly low coefficient of geezerness.  I, too, enjoy reflecting on the past.  Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but it seems like much of it was a better time...

93
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 06:00:59 PM »
Mr Kubrick is a true genius, His Space Odyssey is one of the most impressive visual experiences ever witnessed by me in the art world. Unforgettable Masterpiece...
Couldn't agree more.  First saw 2001 as a kid in the local theatre with BIG screen.  Awesome!
Have yet to see any outer space movie that even comes close to depicting the endless emptiness and distance of space the way Kubrick did.  Instead they bop around between 'star systems' and galaxies like running down to the corner pub.  Not the same at all.  Pathetic, really.

Thanks for the prod to revisit some old classics.

94
Geopolitics / Re: Thee "YOUR FIRED" thread
« on: February 18, 2017, 05:37:59 PM »
Whoa Dudes!
My little avatar pic is getting really nervous!
(Notice the expression of alarm)

95
Environment / Re: Fifty States Research Project (FSRP)
« on: February 18, 2017, 04:30:25 PM »
As RE has pointed out, over and again, all of the necessary and good projects require money -- funding.  And the money's not going to come rolling in unless folks believe in the project.  One is already having to play Marketer to sell a project, whatever it is.  But Marketing is corrupt. Right.

Nothing can be done.

....  I proposed having at least one new project in each of the fifty states because no one would therefore have to drive across the freaking country to visit a place where IT is happening.  This thing which cannot be done.

Nothing can be done.

For twenty five years I've heard the refrain from most folks who know what our problems are.

"Nothing can be done".

And guess what they have done?

Take a guess.
Dude, I apologize for contributing to your frustration.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, institutional solutions rarely produce good results.

I've grown to prefer homegrown organic processes where people throw in their labor and passion, not just some bucks.
I'm doing everything I can, personally educating, instructing and encouraging many dozens of folks toward good ends.
And it's costly.  Keeps me well below the poverty level since I don't focus my time and energy on generating cash income.
I don't say 'it can't be done'.  Far from it.  I'm doing a lot, and I know others who are as well.  But it's quiet and in the background, not spectacular or showy.  I think a lot more will get done once the easy money gravy train slows down and folks are faced with the necessity to get to work and get 'er done or perish.  It can be done.  Just maybe not so much through big bureaucracies.

Gotta go.  Chore time.  Critters to feed.
--Greg

96
Environment / Re: Fifty States Research Project (FSRP)
« on: February 18, 2017, 03:56:06 PM »
...SHOULD BE GOING ON IN COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.  Right?  So maybe we should enlist them BACK into their original purpose, which was (ostensibly) to be a place of learning and ... well, education (?)!

That would be fabulous.  It was exactly why Lincoln established the land grant college system.  Problem is that corporate money has thoroughly overwhelmed that system.  Read Wendell Berry's essays from his book The Unsettling of America to get a good perspective on this.  The students are trained pretty exclusively in modern techno-agribusiness, and the echo-chamber environment of academia keeps them believing that they've got all the right answers.

Mention words like permaculture and you get disgusted expressions and rolled eyes as a response.  I've been dismissed with the phrase "that hippy-dippy nonsense."

Move on without them. We need to do what we need to do. Those that decide to come along with us (and they are out there) are always welcome.

97
Environment / Re: Fifty States Research Project (FSRP)
« on: February 18, 2017, 03:37:27 PM »
Fifty States Research Project etc...
Man-oh-man, I'd ask where to sign up, but some of these...
...involve collaboration between the appropriate department/s of state colleges or universities...
give me the whillies.

SG Alert!:  It's willies, not whillies.

RE
SG Chief of Police
So THAT'S what you're bragging about nailing me for over at the Driverless Car forum!?!
Dang it! And worst of all, you're right!
That does it. I'm watchin' you...

98
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 03:25:33 PM »
Whether I am the right guy or wrong guy for the job, I'm the guy that does it.  I pay for the place and do most of the writing for it.  So you're stuck with me until I buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond.

As to dealing with deliberate misspellings, you are free to explain them in court after being apprehended by the Spelling Gestapo.

RE

I'm good with that.  (Ah be goo wih dat)
Cheers!
Greg

99
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 02:43:39 PM »
He means DIM as in clockwork orange.  Or the DIM who obsess with flat screens so completely they loose any desire for the 'old in out' and fade away to nothingness consumed by the flickering blue light.  Minds wiped so squeaky clean thought slides right off.  What you called dim-witted.

I don't understand this particular violation of the CCs but R.E. is pretty good at keeping everyone playing nice so perhaps he will explain.
Welcome to the Diner Farmer.

Thanks for the explain'n, Dog.  It's been a long time since I've seen Clockwork Orange.  Gonna hafta netfilx it.
And thanks for the welcome.  I hope I can handle this place.  The brawls get brutal at times.  Don't care much for busted dishes.

Is RE the right guy for CoC enforcement?  Seems he can get pretty testy when he wants to.  Eh, RE?
I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

FM?  Did I miss something?
I like deliberate misspellings to mimic conversational speech, or to impart a sense of folksiness or whatever.  Get used to it.

100
Environment / Re: Fifty States Research Project (FSRP)
« on: February 18, 2017, 02:00:15 PM »
Fifty States Research Project etc...
Man-oh-man, I'd ask where to sign up, but some of these...
Quote
...funded through a mix of private donation to a non-profit corporation AND each of the state's governments through the state legislature...
...involve collaboration between the appropriate department/s of state colleges or universities...
give me the whillies.  Not big on suits and the control and domination mentalities that come with them.  If you take gubmint money, you be the gubmint's be-otch.  That's why I don't take advantage of grants or other handouts to build my prepstead farm.  And our wonderful land-grant colleges have played a major role in forking up the entire agricultural system.  I am near Colorado State U. and those boys are all about promoting their corporate masters' agenda of biotech tomfoolery, seed and genome monopolization, and toxic rescue chemistry.  Not a big fan of any of that.  Rather keep a safe distance...

However, I would love to be involved with folks who want to intentionally work toward a more sustainable and locally sufficient future.
--Greg

101
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 01:18:56 PM »
Damn!  What a great bunch of responses.  Thanks for the welcome, Eddie.

First:
like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

I'd like to see this proposition detailed out a bit.  Why? How?
Good question.  My suggestion (notice I said "may not", not "will not") comes from my less optimistic doomer side.  Considering the not unreal possibility that within a decade this country may see a catastrophic economic contraction forcing the shutdown of large corporate enterprises including government entities like the DOT.  Financial hardship accompanied by high fuel prices could see a significant reduction in miles driven.  The Interstate Highway system requires vigilant maintenance to keep it functional.  That requires capital, which could, and probably will, become scarce.

Now keep in mind that I never said we would not need overland roads of various sizes.  But high-speed controlled access interchanges with entrance and exit ramps, overpasses, flyovers, and all the other accoutrements of modern engine-powered transport systems could become just so much overbuilt liability.  To say within a decade is pessimistic for sure.  To say a hundred years is almost a certainty.

Eddie's points are well taken.  For fleet operations and taxi services driverless cars may well become more common.  But my response was in agreement with the author's statement that
Quote
Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence.


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I had thought the Farmer was pointing out it was an absurd falsehood fabricated for the Dim to consume.

Hi Farmer, Welcome aboard the Diner.  :hi:

Thanks to you also for the welcome, Ox.
You pretty much nailed where I was going with that.  But help me out here: is "Dim" the obvious, as in short for "Dimwitted"?
Incidentally, I have a couple of actual Golden Oxen out in my pasture.  They are Jersey steers over 2 years old that are soon to become freezer dwellers.

As for the labor vs. robotics discussion: WAY above my pay grade.  But I definitely concur with this...

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute (moot) IMO.
--Greg

102
The Kitchen Sink / Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« on: February 18, 2017, 08:49:37 AM »
Quote
Can we just get real here for a minute? Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence. We are no closer to deploying fleets of driverless cars now than we were to having a flying car in every garage, as the illustrated predictions in Popular Mechanics and the like insisted through the 50s and 60s. And 70s and 80s.

File this one right alongside 'colonists on mars' (let alone 'other habitable planets'), cryo-stasis, fusion reactors, high-rise greenhouses, 'the singularity', and so many other techno-fantasies.  The desperate straits of the auto industry in general should be a clue to the fact that there just isn't a market for super high-tech (read: super expensive) vehicles outside the bubble world of the 0.01%; there's hardly a market for less expensive cars or they wouldn't be offering those ridiculous loans.

Just more smoke and mirrors (bread and circuses) to keep the lumpen from focusing on reality, like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

Great commentary.
--Greg

103
Gotta throw in another relevant quote:

"They that desire to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and into many foolish and hurtful lusts which drown men's souls in destruction and perdition."

(Totally from memory so I hope I didn't bugger it up too much...)
--Greg

104
I dunno, RE.  Think there's a definite distinction there.

Ever heard of Stanislaw Lem?  He was a Polish writer that penned some interesting Sci-Fi/Social Commentary stories.  The one that comes to mind involved a planet on which (if I remember right) the colonists that were sent from earth (and again, IIRR, they were chosen to be colonists because they were annoying things like insurance salesmen, etc.) didn't have the means to print money, so they decided, for whatever reason, to use leaves (ie tree leaves) which they would stuff into their clothing to carry around.  As can be expected, before too terribly long they had thoroughly defoliated the entire continent.

Quote
Get rid of the money, and the Greed Plant does not grow from the seed.

If we didn't use money, we would, in our avarice, hoard all the food, or whatever else was the means of storing and accumulating value.  JC was speaking to our intent, not to the physical object.
--Greg

105
Quote
Money: The ROOT of all EVIL  :evil4:

RE
Can't leave this one alone, RE.
The great one you are (mis)quoting actually said that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
Money is just a medium of exchange, neutral and physically innocuous.
It's the damn greedy humans that screw it all up.  That's why he said it the way he did.

I like this from JDWheeler:
Quote
3.  Do not use more energy over the course of a year than can be collected during the year.
Not to be interpreted too strictly; for example, if you have a four-year coppice wood rotation, then you only collect 4-year-old stems, never dip into the 3-year-old ones.

As a corollary to this, or perhaps an Ordnung rule in itself: No resource or potential resource shall be allowed to go to waste, but where possible shall be used to fullest potential.  For example, anything edible by man, beast or bug shall be fed to the appropriate entity or as a last resort shall be composted.  Additionally, all bodily wastes from said men or beasts shall be composted or otherwise used to maximize soil fertility.

I suggest this as a possible corollary to JDW's #3 above since this is very much an energy issue.  All foods are "food" precisely because they embody the solar energy that was used to produce them (through plant photosynthesis, whether that food be a plant product, or the product of an animal that ate plants or ate other creatures that ate plants, and so on).  All foods starts with plants, including phytoplankton and algae, the base of the ocean food chain, and grasses, which are a critical part of the food chain for us beef and cheese eaters.

That embodied solar energy persists through many generations of eaters as our wastes (as well as our ultimately dead bodies), and those of our livestock, are happily consumed by various critters, insects, worms, bacteria and fungi, etc. (each harvesting what energy it can by further breaking down the complex carbohydrates produced during photosynthesis) until the last carbon bonds are broken and all that remains are the humic substances that enrich the soil to produce new plants. lt is entirely an energy economy.  Solar energy, that is.

It is foolish for us to not utilize every available bit of that energy as best we can, ultimately putting what remains back into the soil to be cycled back to us again by the action of water and sunlight.

--Greg

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