Doomstead Diner Newz Channels => Golden Oxen Newz => Topic started by: g on May 01, 2012, 08:54:29 AM

Title: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 01, 2012, 08:54:29 AM
Missouri politicians aim to simplify use of gold as money
http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/roman-baudzus/missouri-politicians-aim-to-simplify-use-of-gold-as-money.html (http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/roman-baudzus/missouri-politicians-aim-to-simplify-use-of-gold-as-money.html)

Gold coins Missouri is the latest US state that is trying to follow Utah's example by allowing physical gold and silver to be used as legal tender. According to the Constitution, gold and silver coins – such as the American Gold and Silver Eagle – should be accepted as legal tender in all of the US, but of course this has long since ceased to apply in practice. But now some members of the Missouri House of Representatives are working on simplifying the payment process with precious metals, and are hoping to introduce special gold and silver accounts for all monetary transactions done in the state.

This plan is similar to a law passed in Utah, which allows citizens to use a bank card “backed” by physical gold and silver. Such moves could presage similar moves in other states, given the increasing opposition to the Federal Reserve’s easy money policies.

In contrast to the Missouri Republican representatives – most of which support these moves – Missouri Democrats are sceptical and even opposed to simplifying the payment process with physical gold and silver. According to recent statements by the Democrats, the legislature currently has more important issues to deal with.

These are small moves at the moment, which are happening in state legislatures as opposed to Congress in Washington. Nevertheless, this could all be the harbinger of something bigger as far as American sound money is concerned.
GoldBarStack
GoldBarStack
 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 01, 2012, 09:25:40 AM
Thanks Golden Oxen, very interesting to see this movement gaining momentum. Virginia was working on this too last year.

So the question that popped into my mind is, if several states adopt PMs as legal tender and form a block, can the President get away with EO 6102.1?

Seems to me the backlash for confiscating gold a second time, when it's currently NOT used by the Feds as legal tender, would be interesting to watch. I make the distinction because confiscating gold now would be confiscating your home or other property. This gets to my only concern about holding Eagles vs. Kuggerands.

Your thoughts?

Jb
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 01, 2012, 10:31:42 PM
Thanks Golden Oxen, very interesting to see this movement gaining momentum. Virginia was working on this too last year.

So the question that popped into my mind is, if several states adopt PMs as legal tender and form a block, can the President get away with EO 6102.1?

Seems to me the backlash for confiscating gold a second time, when it's currently NOT used by the Feds as legal tender, would be interesting to watch. I make the distinction because confiscating gold now would be confiscating your home or other property. This gets to my only concern about holding Eagles vs. Kuggerands.

Your thoughts?

Jb
                                                                                                                       Jb. I would assume in war time or under a state of martial law the president could just about do anything. It is most unlikely in my opinion that he could pull that stunt in the absence of them. The right to own gold was just won back through the US legal system a few decades ago by the gold community; and it would be difficult to make it illegal again by an EO since FDR's order has been thrown out as illegal, although it took decades to regain the right to own gold legally. There is also the phrase in the Constitution that makes clear only gold and silver are legal money. I would also like to point out that the US Treasury sells gold and silver American Eagle coins to any member of the citizenry that wishes to buy them on a daily basis. How you tell everyone to give it back under our legal system would be a tall order. Even FDR had to exempt numismatic coins from his EO. As to your point that seizure could not be accomplished because it is not legal tender, that is a myth that is no longer true. The legal system and even the IRS have stated that Us American Eagles are the only coins that can be placed in retirement plans, such as IRA'S and 401K'S. For that reason alone i would urge you to buy American Eagles over Krugerrands or Maple Leafs. A block of states guaranteeing your legal right to make gold and silver transactions would add another impediment to federal interference that would be extremely difficult to overcome. I believe you are correct when you state it would be the same as taking your home or paintings hanging on your wall. It is my personal opinion that confiscation is a non issue, constantly brought up by gold haters and promoters of fiat to keep people away from the real money. It may also be worth noting that the amount of gold in the public's  hand is chump change to these fiat printing digital money mad men, they are dealing in the trillions now. Grabbing the little gold the public has would not be worth the effort. Are you aware that the market cap of just one stock like an Apple or Google is worth more or as much as all the gold in Fort Knox? 
Gold Eagle Coin 1997
Gold Eagle Coin 1997
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 02, 2012, 06:28:21 AM
Thanks GO.

I agree with you on all counts but I wonder if this logic depends on whether or not there really is 8k tons of gold in Ft. Knox.

If we're headed for a much deeper Depression, then I expect to see people liquidate their gold as Foss et al suggest. In fact, people might gladly sell their Eagles to the Fed under some 'buy back' program. Why let a crisis go to waste, eh? At least that way it won't end up going to China.

Jb
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 02, 2012, 07:21:29 AM
Thanks GO.

I agree with you on all counts but I wonder if this logic depends on whether or not there really is 8k tons of gold in Ft. Knox.

If we're headed for a much deeper Depression, then I expect to see people liquidate their gold as Foss et al suggest. In fact, people might gladly sell their Eagles to the Fed under some 'buy back' program. Why let a crisis go to waste, eh? At least that way it won't end up going to China.

Jb
                                                                                                                                  I doubt very much if all the gold is still there at Fort Knox. Why is the fed refusing a congressman the stature of Ron Paul permission to audit it? What a disgrace. As to Nicole Foss and her theory of people dumping gold and buying dollars in a depression, my personal belief is that it is a fairy tale. My opinion on deflation is that it could only happen if a sudden unforeseen accident were to happen. Inflation, lots and lots of it, is the path TPTB have chosen, it is difficult to imagine citizens trading gold for their dollars in that most likely of scenarios, most likely the other way around.       
shapeimage 22
shapeimage 22
                                                             
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 02, 2012, 11:02:39 AM
Golden Oxen:

I have a personal friend who had to sell the gold coins his grandfather gave him several years ago before the price went above 1k. He deeply regrets it but they needed the cash. I did the same with savings bonds when I was in college. As a parent, I don't doubt that I will sell anything I have to feed my son.

Maybe this is on a different scale than what N. Foss is talking about. Preppers exchanging FRNs for PMs and vice versa is probably a very small percentage of the global market.

Jb
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 03, 2012, 07:14:14 AM
Golden Oxen:

I have a personal friend who had to sell the gold coins his grandfather gave him several years ago before the price went above 1k. He deeply regrets it but they needed the cash. I did the same with savings bonds when I was in college. As a parent, I don't doubt that I will sell anything I have to feed my son.

Maybe this is on a different scale than what N. Foss is talking about. Preppers exchanging FRNs for PMs and vice versa is probably a very small percentage of the global market.

Jb
   Nothing wrong with selling some gold for fiat you need to pay for a necessity or unforeseen need. That is why the gold is there.  Money has two purposes, to act as a medium of exchange and as a store of value.  Paper and digital money are still working quite well as a medium of exchange, but to use them as a store of value would imply you have brain damage. So things get tough and people sell some gold to make ends meet, isn't that true of all financial assets? Stocks, bonds, real estate, farmland, life insurance policies? Should we all sell all our assets and hoard bankster fiat because some people see a collapse somewhere ahead? What if it is five or ten years from now, and what if it is a hyperinflationary collapse rather than a deflationary one. and then of course there is the question of what comes after the collapse. Remember the last deflationary collapse in the 1930's. Would it have been wise to to sell all your gold to FDR at 20 dollars, or hide it in the back yard in a hole. Kindly note he almost doubled the official price of it shortly after grabbing what he could to rev up the great inflation machine we are still operating in.   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News China Gold Imports Up Sharply
Post by: g on May 09, 2012, 06:27:31 AM
Mainland China’s gold imports from Hong Kong surged more than sixfold in the first quarter, adding to signs that the country may displace India as the world’s largest consumer of the precious metal on an annual basis.

Imports from Hong Kong were 135,529 kilograms (135.53 metric tons) between January and March, from 19,729 kilograms in the year-earlier period, according to data from the Census and Statistics Department of the  Hong Kong government Global Commodities Ltd., talks about the outlook for commodity markets and his investment strategy. He speaks with John Dawson on Bloomberg Television's "On the Move Asia." (Source: Bloomberg)
www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/china-s-gold-imports-advance-as-country-may-become-biggest-user.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/china-s-gold-imports-advance-as-country-may-become-biggest-user.html)   S&I will set them straight on their Asian tour    ::)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 09, 2012, 08:44:44 AM
Demand for physical surging in China as money looks for somewhere to go. Silver approaching my target; feels like it has momentum to get there. I expect metals to return to a longer term tread line; repeat of 2008. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 09, 2012, 08:56:54 AM
Same thoughts as before on your purchases Jb. Tip toe in and dollar cost average, the markets open every day; You wont miss anything that way, let the hedge funds that play with other peoples money, OPM, be the heroes. Heads they win tails the backers loose, you know the game.   :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 10, 2012, 05:46:56 AM
Interesting link from an article on ZeroHedge: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120508f4.html (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120508f4.html)

The Japanese are selling their gold.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on May 10, 2012, 08:14:52 AM
Saw this as well. Wondering just how long that can go on. Probably until they are out of gold...
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 15, 2012, 01:20:20 PM
One last check today: silver at $27.62 US and still falling!

I'm gonna have to revise my target of $25.50....

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on May 18, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Davies says the bottom is in.  ::)

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/5/18_Ben_Davies_-_The_Gold_%26_Silver_Liquidation_is_Over.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/5/18_Ben_Davies_-_The_Gold_%26_Silver_Liquidation_is_Over.html)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 20, 2012, 03:56:09 AM
From one of the best and unusually quiet master investors, Ray Dalio

    Saturday, May 19, 8:31 AM Ray Dalio explains the concept of a beautiful deleveraging and why the U.S. is in one, but the EU, not so much. He expects the ECB will ultimately print money and produce another big rally, "but this is a tougher time to be very confident about that scenario." An "uncivilized" man, Dalio remains a fan of gold, recommending most have 10% of their assets in the metal.It's hard to imagine anyone navigating the rough seas of the past decade more ably than Ray Dalio, master and commander of money-management firm Bridgewater Associates, which oversees $120 billion for a roster of global clients that include foreign governments, pension funds and endowments.

The Westport, Conn.-based company is the world's largest hedge-fund firm and one of just a handful of players to place more than one fund on Barron's annual Top 100 Hedge Funds ranking. This year Bridgewater's flagship Pure Alpha II and its All Weather @12% global macro funds both make the list.  :icon_study:

   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News (Recovery an Illusion: John Williams at His Best!
Post by: g on May 20, 2012, 04:15:18 AM
JW: Your primary hedge is physical gold; precious metals, including silver; and some assets outside the dollar. I still like the Swiss franc—its ties to the euro will not last. I like the Australian dollar and the Canadian dollar. Having funds actually outside the U.S. is a plus. To get through the crisis, you need a hard asset that is liquid for the near term.

Over the longer haul, gold stocks are wonderful hedges, but if the system gets into real trouble, which I think it will, you may have liquidity issues in the market. I am talking about limitations on the physical ability to transact in the market. You may also have liquidity problems with real estate, although over time, real estate is a tremendous hedge against inflation.

TGR: What is the best investment advice you ever received?

JW: Well, I do not generally take investment advice, but the best investment advice I ever gave myself was to buy gold.                                                                                Excerpt Full Article Link Below. Don't miss it chock full of charts and goodies!  http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/ei5Vo4q4g70/13404 (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/ei5Vo4q4g70/13404)        :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on May 25, 2012, 09:05:12 AM
GO, thinking of you on this one:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/bank-russia-buy-%E2%80%9Cconsiderable-figure-gold-tonnage-2012 (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/bank-russia-buy-%E2%80%9Cconsiderable-figure-gold-tonnage-2012)

From GoldCore

Bank Of Russia To Buy “Considerable Figure" Of Gold Tonnage In 2012

Gold’s London AM fix this morning was USD 1,560.50, EUR 1,240.66, and GBP 996.04 per ounce. Yesterday's AM fix this morning was USD 1,558.50, EUR 1,239.27, and GBP 993.62 per ounce.

Silver is trading at $28.30/oz, €22.60/oz and £18.13/oz. Platinum is trading at $1,430.00/oz, palladium at $588.70/oz and rhodium at $1,275/oz.

Gold was off $1.70 or 0.11% in New York yesterday and closed at $1,559.50/oz. Gold fell in Asia prior to gains late in the session and these gains continued in early European trading as lower prices are leading to some safe haven demand.

(http://dzswc0o8s13dx.cloudfront.net/goldcore_bloomberg_chart1_25-05-12.png)
Gold USD Chart – (Bloomberg)

Gold looks set to see a fourth consecutive monthly loss which will be bearish technically. Gold will need to rally nearly $100/oz between now and end of trading of next Thursday May 31st to not incur a monthly loss of some 6% in May.

It will be the first time it has had four consecutive monthly losses since the four months to January 2000 – prior to the current secular bull market.

Gold’s monthly decline is primarily in dollar terms and therefore a dollar phenomenon as it coincides with a very poor month for the euro which currently is down nearly 5% versus the dollar.

Thus, gold is only down 1% against the euro while most European equity indices are down by 5% plus.

Although gold is a safe haven, in recent days speculators and investors burnt by riskier assets like equities, oil and industrial metals have been forced to liquidate their gold paper positions to cover losses in other markets.

While speculative players in futures markets can exert considerable influence in the short term, as ever physical supply and demand will be the ultimate arbiter of price in the long term.

The debt crisis in Europe looks like it may spiral out of control and trigger a global economic slowdown and contagion which will again support gold in the long term.

Holdings in the SPDR Gold Trust, the biggest bullion-backed exchange-traded fund, rose for a second day to 1,270.30 metric tons yesterday. Demand in Asia outside of India was “good” yesterday and interest in Europe is “evident,” UBS said in a report this morning.

Premiums of gold bars in Tokyo rose to as much as $1.50 per ounce above London prices, the highest level since last March, as investors turned from sellers to buyers during this most recent price correction, dealers told Reuters.

The IMF central bank gold demand figures for April were very bullish and suggest that central bank demand in 2012 may be even higher than the 456.4 tons added last year – which was the most in almost five decades.

The World Gold Council estimates that central banks will buy as much as 400 tons this year.

The data yesterday suggests that demand may be even higher than these levels and there is also the near certainty that larger central banks, such as the People’s Bank of China, are quietly accumulating gold reserves and not reporting their purchases to the IMF - as was done previously.

(http://dzswc0o8s13dx.cloudfront.net/goldcore_bloomberg_chart3_25-05-12.png)
XAU/EUR Currency Chart – (Bloomberg)

Today, the deputy chairman of Russia's central bank, Sergey Shvetsov, said that the Bank of Russia plans to keep buying gold on the domestic market in order to diversify their foreign exchange reserves. 

"Last year we bought about 100 tonnes. This year it will be less but still a considerable figure," Shvetsov told Reuters on the sidelines of a financial conference in Milan.

Russia's gold and foreign exchange reserves fell to $514.3 billion in the week ending May 18, from $518.8 billion a week earlier. However, they have risen from the $498.6 billion seen at the end of 2011.

Yesterday, Shvetsov said that Greece has plans for a parallel currency and that it is a “necessity” for Greece to leave the euro.

US exchanges are closed on Monday for Memorial Day.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on May 25, 2012, 09:12:25 AM
Thanks Surly, Marc Faber is speaking of it's wonders on CNBC right now.  :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Merkel Warms to Idea of Gold for Collateral
Post by: g on May 30, 2012, 08:57:52 AM
I am not surprised.    :icon_study:

From: GoldMoney - Gold Research
http://www.goldmoney.com (http://www.goldmoney.com)
Gold reserves as collateral
http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/newsdesk/gold-reserves-as-collateral.html (http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/newsdesk/gold-reserves-as-collateral.html)

London Good Delivery gold bars Yesterday’s big news as far as gold was concerned was a Telegraph report stating that Germany could be about to get into the “cash for gold” business in a big way. Angela Merkel is said to be increasingly favourable to the idea of countries pooling a portion of their sovereign debt into a redemption fund, with the eurozone then taking on a collective obligation to honour this debt. Member states would be obliged to pledge gold and currency reserves as collateral in case they are unable to make good on their obligations.

This so-called “European Redemption Pact” gets around German courts' constitutional objections to “Eurobonds”. It would also allow PIIGS governments to in effect share “Germany’s credit card”, thus lowering borrowing costs in the eurozone periphery and so taking the pressure off of embattled governments in Spain, Greece, Italy and elsewhere. And a big plus point as far as Germany is concerned is that this is no free lunch: if countries cannot honour their commitments, then they will lose their collateral.

But of course, things are never as simple as that. The fly in the ointment here is the always-emotive subject of gold, with many in southern Europe sure to object to the idea of pledging their gold to such a venture. Italy’s sovereign gold reserves stand at 2,451 tonnes – worth €98 billion as of March – while France sits on a hoard of 2,435 tonnes, and Portugal 383 tonnes (Portugal actually owns around 72 tonnes more then the European Union’s second largest economy, the United Kingdom). Having thus far resisted pressure to sell gold in order to shore up state finances, many in these countries will no doubt be wary of this EU take on a “cash for gold” shopping mall kiosk.

This idea bears close attention. If it looks like taking off, it will be yet another indicator that gold is slowly but surely re-entering the financial calculations of governments around the world.
GoldBarStack
GoldBarStack
 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on May 30, 2012, 10:35:23 AM
Somebody somewhere is already packaging derivatives on this concept, with "rehypothification" to come next week.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News FDIC Rule Will Return Gold To The Center Of The Banking
Post by: g on June 20, 2012, 10:39:11 AM
Yesterday, June 18, 2012, the FDIC distributed a rule-making notice to member banks, telling them it intends to change collateral rules, among other things. The changes are not purely the work of the FDIC alone. Prior to the notice, the agency got the approval of all US federal bank regulatory agencies. These include the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), Federal Reserve Board of Governors and the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC).

The purpose is to harmonize and address perceived shortcomings in the measurement of risk-weighted assets, in part by implementing changes made by the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision (BCBS) to international regulatory capital standards. It is also intended to implement aspects of the Dodd-Frank Act. The proposed rule would:

1) Revise risk weights for residential mortgages based on loan-to-value ratios and certain product and underwriting features;
2) Increase capital requirements for past-due loans, high volatility commercial real estate exposures, and certain short-term loan commitments;
3) Expand the recognition of collateral and guarantors in determining risk-weighted assets;
4) Remove references to credit ratings; and
5) Establish due diligence requirements for securitization exposures.

One key provision significantly strengthens restrictions on the way banks estimate their exposure to derivative risks. Banks use these estimates, and disseminate them to regulators, for purposes of setting and/or justifying capital levels. Estimates of exposure using so-called "net current credit exposure" (the cost of canceling the contracts prior to the occurrence of a trigger event) and/or purely subjective mark-to-fantasy "models", concocted by the bank financial team, would no longer be acceptable. Notional exposure would become a mandatory part of calculating the "risk" of derivatives.

Under new rules, the following would be entitled to a zero percent risk weighting:

1. Cash;
2. Gold bullion;
3. Direct and unconditional claims on the U.S. government, its central bank, or a U.S. government agency;
4. Exposures unconditionally guaranteed by the U.S. government, its central bank, or a U.S. government agency;
5. Claims on certain supranational entities (such as the International Monetary Fund) and certain multilateral development banking organizations
6. Claims on and exposures unconditionally guaranteed by sovereign entities that meet certain criteria, as listed in the notice.

A set of other assets, which are considered less reliable, are assigned a 20% risk weighting:

1. Cash items in the process of collection;
2. Exposures conditionally guaranteed by the U.S. government, its central bank, or a U.S. government agency;
3. Claims on government sponsored entities (GSEs);
4. Claims on U.S. depository institutions and NCUA-insured credit unions;
5. General obligation claims on, and claims guaranteed by the full faith and credit of state and local governments (and any other public sector entity, as defined in the proposal) in the United States;
6. Claims on and exposures guaranteed by foreign banks and public sector entities if the sovereign of incorporation of the foreign bank or public sector entity meets certain criteria.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on June 21, 2012, 01:21:52 PM
Silver at $26.88 as of 4:20 EST. Getting close to my target.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Ignore The Noise Dark Years are Here
Post by: g on June 22, 2012, 03:41:30 AM
IGNORE THE NOISE - KWN & Egon von Greyerz
Egon von Greyerz
Matterhorn Asset Management AG - 18 June 2012
IGNORE THE NOISE

For several years I have stressed to investors that they must focus on real issues and the big picture and ignore all the background noise that is produced by the media and so called financial experts. The scene for what is happening today and will happen in the next few years has been set for years and even decades. What happens to Greece, what the Fed or the ECB do has no effect whatsoever on the extremely severe long term economic and social decline which the world will experience in the next few years.

These daily events just create short term volatility caused by irrational and short term oriented investors/gamblers. As I have been stating in many articles and interviews over the last few years like "Alea Iacta Est" (the die is cast), or the "Dark Years Are Here", the world is virtually certain to experience a hyperinflationary depression of a magnitude that will have a massive impact for the majority of the world's population for years and probably decades. And there is no short term action taken by governments that can change the outcome.

The depression has already started in countries like Greece and Spain and will soon spread to most European countries as well as the USA, Japan and even China.

As Richard Russell of Dow Theory Letters who experienced the 1930s has been saying for years, in a depression everybody suffers, it is just a question of who suffers the least. As the depression spreads, governments and central banks will continue to destroy the value of money by printing unlimited amounts of worthless paper. This is when the suffering worldwide will accelerate. Not only will many people be without jobs, they will also be without a social security support system and with virtually no pension. And whatever little money people will have will have no value due the hyperinflationary prices of goods and services. For a few privileged investors it is still time to preserve assets and purchasing power by purchasing physical gold and storing it outside the banking system. Although gold has gone up around 6 times in the last ten years, it is still cheap and will continue to reflect the destruction of paper money.

In a audio interview with Eric King of King World News (KWN) from 17 June, I cover these very important events in more detail. KWN has an impressive stable of independent thinkers who are interviewed every week. On 16 June for example there is an important interview with Gerald Celente who is a (or rather 'the') world renowned trend forecaster. Since most of the media only covers conventional wisdom and what happened yesterday, KWN has a very important position in featuring interviewees who clearly and objectively can understand the real issues. In my interview with KWN of yesterday I also cover what is likely to happen to gold in the next 12 months. I do agree with James Turk that we are likely to see a major move in gold starting this summer.      :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on June 22, 2012, 06:12:21 AM
This is certainly the right place for this post.

What is interesting is he posits a "hyperinflationary depression" which seems a contradiction in terms. If any of the trillions which Helicopter Ben has created on his laptop were to actually reach the proles, that would be one thing. But from where I sit (and I hasten to add I am no economist) it loks like he is just inflating the balloon enough to keep the Great Ponzi going for another day. All the hyperinflationistas, like Speedy, keep waiting, waiting...

Of course, the hyperinflation might be managed as a slow motion event, witnessed daily in increased food and energy costs, smaller package sizes, etc. , much in the same way as the Zionist Apartheid State is managing the extermination of the Palestinians... slowly, and cut-by-cut.

Egon is certainly a doomy doomster, and he can feel free to nestle around the campfire with Kunstler and all the members, posters and lurkers (and lurkettes) on this board.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on June 22, 2012, 06:54:46 AM
Quote Surly " Of course, the hyperinflation might be managed as a slow motion event, witnessed daily in increased food and energy costs, smaller package sizes, etc. , much in the same way as the Zionist Apartheid State is managing the extermination of the Palestinians... slowly, and cut-by-cut."

We have been on that path here also in my opinion Surly. Have you noticed the 4 1/2 oz tuna fish cans and 11 1/2 tins of what used to be a pound of coffee on top of the price increases. Reminds me of an interview I watched of Pigman Kraft on CNBC a few months ago. He was bragging about how he cut the thickness of a slice of cheese by 50 % and no one even noticed, he was laughing at his novel approach to raising prices. The panel of nit wits was applauding his genius at raising prices in such a brilliant manner. Imagine bragging about such a thing on TV in front of millions of your customers. Incredible what imbeciles our society have become.  I do hope for our sake however that you are correct and it can be managed slowly, but I have my doubts.      :'(
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on June 22, 2012, 07:29:43 AM

//Have you noticed the 4 1/2 oz tuna fish cans and 11 1/2 tins of what used to be a pound of coffee on top of the price increases. Reminds me of an interview I watched of Pigman Kraft on CNBC a few months ago. He was bragging about how he cut the thickness of a slice of cheese by 50 % and no one even noticed, he was laughing at his novel approach to raising prices. The panel of nit wits was applauding his genius at raising prices in such a brilliant manner. Imagine bragging about such a thing on TV in front of millions of your customers. Incredible what imbeciles our society have become. 

The 100 year war on public education has resulted in a system that rewards conformity, teaches people, in Carlin's words, to be "just smart enough to push the levers and fill out the paperwork" but not smart enough to elucidate one's self-interest.

You are familiar, I am sure, with the execrable movie, "Idiocracy?" Awful movie, but the premise is right on the money.

http://www.youtube.com/v/y0O7_3o3BrI?rel=0
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News ( Unusual US Gold Activity Report 1st Qtr 2012 )
Post by: g on July 07, 2012, 05:04:16 AM
 U.S Gold Net Exports Increased Substantially During First Quarter 2012
By Steve St. Angelo
Created 6 Jul 2012

Something very interesting took place in the first three months of 2012. Last year, the United States was a net importer of gold during the first quarter. However this year, the U.S. became a huge net exporter of gold during the same time period. This information was acquired from the latest USGS Gold Mineral Industry Surveys.

Below, we can see the actual data:

u.s. imports and exports of gold [1]

I have focused on the first three categories as these are the predominant sources used in the gold bullion trade. This first chart lists the amount of gold imported during the first quarter of 2012. If we look at the bottom highlighted figure we will see that 75.1 metric tonnes of gold were imported into the U.S. between January and March (These figures are listed in kilograms). The top highlighted figure (507 metric tonnes) shows the total amount of gold imported in 2011.

The chart below displays the amount of U.S. gold exported during Jan-Mar:

u.s. exports of gold 2011 to 2012 [2]

Here we can see that during the first three months of 2012, the U.S. imported only 75.1 metric tonnes, but exported 178 metric tonnes. Thus, the United States was a net exporter of 103 metric tonnes of gold during the first quarter of 2012.

The reason why this is interesting is due to the fact the U.S. was a net importer of 38 metric tonnes of gold during the same time period last year. The next chart reveals just how much gold is leaving the U.S. continent.

u.s. gold imports vs. exports 2011 to 2012 [3]

What a difference in a year – the tide has indeed changed. This turns out to be a net export difference of 141 metric tonnes of U.S. gold compared to last year – or 4.53 million ounces of gold in just three months. When the USGS releases the next Gold Mineral Industry Survey, it will be interesting to see how much more gold is leaving the country. Not only is gold leaving the continent, look at the drop of gold imports during this time period.
U.S. Gold Imports

Q1 2011 = 172 metric tonnes (MT)

Q1 2012 = 75.1 metric tonnes (difference of 97 MT)

So where is all this gold going? That’s a good question. If you look up at the Gold Export chart above, you will notice that top three countries receiving U.S. gold were Hong Kong, the United Kingdom, and Switzerland.

top 3 u.s. gold exports q1 2012 [4]

Of the total 178 metric tonnes of gold exported from the U.S. during Q1 of 2012, Hong Kong, the United Kingdom and Switzerland acquired 161.7 metric tonnes or 91% of the total amount. If the rumors are correct, the majority of this gold is being shipped to these countries and being purchased by the Big Eastern Buyers.

Of course this information is from a U.S. governmental agency and it can’t be a guarantee of complete data, but at least this gives us a good idea how the situation has changed from the prior year.
Retail Investment Demand Is a Mere Pittance

As I have mentioned before, retail investment demand is not a good barometer for the precious metal market. If the figures are correct, the U.S. had net exports of 103 metric tonnes (3.3 million ounces) of gold during the first three months of 2012. If we look at the chart below, we can see how little Gold Eagles sales are compared to overall U.S. gold exports:

u.s. mint gold eagle sales 2011 vs. 2012 [5]

Gold Eagle sales in the first half of the year were 343,500 ounces (down 40% yoy), while U.S. gold net exports were over 3.3 million ounces from Jan-Mar 2012. If this trend of U.S. gold exports continues, half year figures could reach 5-6 million ounces. This would mean that retail Gold Eagle demand may only account for 6-7% of the forecasted 5-6 million ounces of U.S. gold net exports.

This proves the case that the majority of Americans are still quite clueless when it comes to understanding gold’s role as money. As the world financial system continues to crumble, the large Eastern buyers and a small minority of Europeans are rapidly exchanging fiat paper notes for gold.

At some point in time the game of music gold chairs will end and the public may not have the opportunity to buy physical gold…. even if they had the means to do so.

Got gold?
                   http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/1uU5l-Rrrgs/u-s-gold-net-exports-increased-substantially-during-first-quarter-2012 (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/1uU5l-Rrrgs/u-s-gold-net-exports-increased-substantially-during-first-quarter-2012)   Link will show chats of this unusual behavior.   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Olympic Gold Coin Farce
Post by: g on July 29, 2012, 07:40:54 AM
The con job continues everywhere.

Do you need any further proof of Central bank currency debasement? They can spend $42 million on the opening ceremonies but put less than 2% gold into the gold medals for the greatest athletes in the world. This again shows the true nature of this farce. The Olympics are about Coke, GE, McDonalds, NBC and the reputations of governments and politicians - and nothing else matters. 
Austerity At The Olympics: Each “Gold” Medal Contains 1.34% Gold
Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Tyler Durdenon 07/28/2012 20:27 -0400

As every Olympic athlete knows, size matters. The London 2012 medals are the largest ever in terms of both weight and diameter – almost double the medals from Beijing. However, just as equally well-known is that quality beats quantity and that is where the current global austerity, coin-clipping, devaluation-fest begins. The 2012 gold is 92.5 percent silver, 6.16 copper and… 1.34 percent gold, with IOC rules specifying that it must contain 550 grams of high-quality silver and a whopping 6 grams of gold. The resulting medallion is worth about $500. For the silver medal, the gold is replaced with more copper, for a $260 bill of materials. The bronze medal is 97 percent copper, 2.5 percent zinc and 0.5 percent tin. Valued at about $3, you might be able to trade one for a bag of chips in Olympic park if you skip the fish.

 http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=38033 (http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=38033)     :icon_study:

Athens Goldmask
Athens Goldmask
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Trust Starts with Truth and Ends with Truth.
Post by: g on August 07, 2012, 08:08:36 PM
A Matter of Trust - Part Two
By James Quinn
Created 7 Aug 2012

This is Part 2 of my three part series on trust. Part 1 [1] addressed the history of bubbles and busts and the role trust plays in these episodes. In the end, truth is what matters.

    “Trust starts with truth and ends with truth.” - Santosh Kalwar [2]


Hundred Year Bust

share of silver roman coins

    “Debasement was limited at first to one’s own territory. It was then found that one could do better by taking bad coins across the border of neighboring municipalities and exchanging them for good with ignorant common people, bringing back the good coins and debasing them again. More and more mints were established. Debasement accelerated in hyper-fashion until a halt was called after the subsidiary coins became practically worthless, and children played with them in the street, much as recounted in Leo Tolstoy’s short story, Ivan the Fool.” – Charles P. Kindleberger – Manias, Panics, and Crashes [3]

The Holy Roman Empire debased their currency in the early 1600s the old fashioned way, by replacing good coins with bad coins. Any similarities with the U.S. issuing pennies that cost 2.4 cents to produce and nickels that cost 11 cents to produce is purely coincidental. I wonder what the ancient Greeks would think of our Olympic gold medals that contain 1.34% gold. The authorities have become much more sophisticated in the last one hundred years. Digital dollars are so much easier to debase. The hundred year central banker scientifically manufactured bust relentlessly plods towards its ultimate conclusion – the dollar reaching its intrinsic value of zero.

dropped only four cents founding of fed

    “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” – Henry Ford [4]

Henry Ford made this statement decades before the debasement of our currency entered overdrive. The facts reflected in the chart above should have provoked a revolution, but the ruling class has done a magnificent job of ensuring the mathematical ignorance of the masses through government education, mass media propaganda, and statistical manipulation of inflation data to obscure the truth. Mainstream economists have successfully convinced the average American that inflation is good for their lives and deflation is dangerous to their wellbeing. There are economists like Kindleberger, Shiller and Roubini who have brilliantly documented and predicted various bubbles, despite being scorned a ridiculed by the captured mouthpieces for the oligarchs. But even these fine men have a flaw in their thinking. They can see speculative manias spurred by irrational beliefs and delusional thinking, but are blind to the evil manipulations of bankers, politicians, and corporate titans. They believe that humans with Ivy League educations can outsmart markets and through the fine tuning of interest rates, manipulation of the money supply and provision of liquidity through a lender of last resort, can control the financial system and avoid panics.

Kindleberger understood the dangers, but still concluded that the Federal Reserve lender of last resort was a desirable entity which would be a benefit to the smooth functioning of the economic system and people of the United States.

    “I contend that markets work well on the whole, and can normally be relied upon to decide the allocation of resources and, within limits, the distribution of income, but that occasionally markets will be overwhelmed and need help. The dilemma, of course, is that if markets know in advance that help is forthcoming under generous dispensations, they break down more frequently and function less effectively.

    The dominant argument against the a priori view that panics can be cured by being left alone is that they almost never are left alone. The authorities feel compelled to intervene. In panic after panic, crash after crash, crisis after crisis, the authorities or some “responsible citizens” try to bring the panic to a halt by one device or another. The learning has taken the form of discovering the desirability and even the wisdom of a lender of last resort, rather than relying exclusively on the competitive forces of the market.” -– Charles P. Kindleberger – Manias, Panics, and Crashes [3]

Kindleberger’s reasoning seems to be that since egomaniac busy bodies in power always interfere in markets in order to convince voters they care; it is desirable to institutionalize this intervention. Book smart academics always think they can outsmart the markets and correct the errors caused by the flaws endemic across all humanity. Well-meaning brainy economists like Kindleberger, Shiller, and Stiglitz easily identify the irrationality of human nature in creating havoc with our economic system, but somehow conclude that human constructs like the Federal Reserve, tinkering with interest rates, controlling money supply, and applying fiscal stimulus can be managed to the benefit of the American people. This is a foolish notion and has been proven to be disastrous for the majority of the American people.

Why wouldn’t the same human flaws that lead to booms and busts manifest themselves in the actions of bankers and politicians selected to manage and control our economic system? Therein lays the problem and the need for a true free market method of dealing with our human frailties. The false storyline of Democratic socialism versus Republican free market capitalism is nothing more than propaganda talking points designed to keep the non-critical thinking public distracted from the looting and pillaging of the nation’s wealth by our owners – the wealthy powerful elite who have captured our political, economic and financial system. The “solution” to create a private central bank has created more crises than it has prevented.

When examining Kindleberger’s list of manias, panics and crashes, you will note that prior to 1913 almost all of these crashes occurred over the course of two years or less. The creation of the Federal Reserve was supposedly in response to the 1907 panic, created by J.P. Morgan, who then nobly came to the rescue of the banking system. He then secretly led the effort to create a central bank that would function as the lender of last resort during future panics. Forbes magazine founder B.C. Forbes [5] later described the meeting that hatched the malevolent plan for the creation of a banker controlled Federal Reserve:

    “Picture a party of the nation’s greatest bankers stealing out of New York on a private railroad car under cover of darkness, stealthily riding hundreds of miles South, embarking on a mysterious launch, sneaking onto an island deserted by all but a few servants, living there a full week under such rigid secrecy that the names of not one of them was once mentioned, lest the servants learn the identity and disclose to the world this strangest, most secret expedition in the history of American finance. I am not romancing; I am giving to the world, for the first time, the real story of how the famous Aldrich currency report, the foundation of our new currency system, was written.”

The American people should have been alarmed that a small group of powerful bankers designed the Federal Reserve and it was passed into law in the dead of night on December 23, 1913 with 27 Senators not even in Washington D.C. to vote on the bill. Something done this secretively never leads to a positive outcome. It is beyond question the creation of a private lender of last resort has not ended the boom and bust cycles of our economic system, but it has intensified and protracted them.

The Great Depression, which was precipitated by Federal Reserve easy money policies during the 1920s, Federal Reserve missteps in the early 1930s, and FDR driven government intervention in the markets, began in 1929 and did not truly end until 1946. The easy money Federal Reserve policies during the 1970s, along with Nixon’s closing the gold window, and commencement of our welfare/warfare state, led to a prolonged crisis from 1973 through 1982. The Federal Reserve easy money policies in the late 1990s and early 2000s, along with the repeal of Glass Steagall, belief that bankers could be trusted to regulate themselves, and capture of regulators, rating agencies, and politicians by Wall Street, has led to two prolonged epic busts between 1999 and 2009, with the biggest bust still coming down the track. Putting our trust in a secretive society of bankers has worked out exactly as expected, with bankers and their cronies becoming obscenely wealthy, while the average person has seen 96% of their purchasing power inflated away since the Federal Reserve’s inception.

The illusion of prosperity through debt and inflation does not change the fact that the inflation adjusted wages of blue collar manufacturing workers are lower today than they were 40 years ago. Luckily for your owners, 98% of Americans don’t know or care what the term “inflation adjusted” means. As long as they can keep buying stuff with one of their 15 credit cards, life is good. Ignorance is bliss.

aheman cpiaucns100 1930 to 2012

The debate regarding whether markets should be allowed to correct themselves or be saved by the authorities has transcended the centuries. Kindleberger poses the dilemma succinctly:

    “There is of course much truth in these contentions, and some danger in coming to the rescue of the market to halt a panic too soon, too frequently, too predictably, or even on occasion at all. The opposing view concedes that it is desirable to purge the system of bubbles and manic investment but that a deflationary panic runs the risk of spreading and wiping out sound investments that may not be able to obtain the loans necessary to ensure survival.” – Charles P. Kindleberger – Manias, Panics, and Crashes [3]

The lack of historical understanding and politically correct education doled out in public schools perpetuates the myth that Herbert Hoover was a do nothing non-interventionist that allowed the Great Depression to worsen because he refused to intervene. The truth is that FDR just continued and expanded upon the massive intervention begun by Hoover. It was Hoover, not Roosevelt, who commenced the policy of piling up huge deficits to support massive public-works projects. After declining or holding steady through most of the 1920s, federal spending soared between 1929 and 1932, increasing by more than 50%, the biggest increase in federal spending ever recorded during peacetime. Public projects undertaken by Hoover included the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Los Angeles Aqueduct, and Hoover Dam. His description of the advice of his Treasury Secretary has been passed down to the ignorant masses as his actual policy. But it’s another false storyline propagated by the mainstream media.

    “The leave-it-alone liquidationists headed by Secretary of Treasury Mellon felt that government must keep its hands off and let the slump liquidate itself. Mr. Mellon had only one formula: ‘Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.’ He insisted that, when the people get an inflationary brainstorm, the only way to get it out of their blood is to let it collapse. He held that even panic was not altogether a bad thing. He said: ‘It will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people.” – Herbert Hoover [6]

In retrospect, Andrew Mellon’s advice, if followed, would have resulted in a short violent collapse, with a true recovery within a year or two (aka Iceland). This exact scenario had played out over the prior three centuries, as detailed by Kindleberger. The monetary intervention, tariffs, mal-investments, price controls, intimidation of businesses, and overall interference in the markets kept a true recovery from happening. Unemployment was still 19% in 1938, after years of stimulus. It wasn’t until 1946 that the U.S. economy started a real recovery, and that was due in part to the rest of the world being left in a smoldering ruin.

Based on the catastrophic results over the last hundred years, you would think the non-interventionist view on markets would be gaining traction. But, the interventionists gain even more power as they propose and implement more resolutions to the disasters they created with their previous solutions. The belief in the wisdom and ability of a few men to control the levers of a $70 trillion world economy for the good of the many is staggering in its naivety and basis in delusion. “Experts” can barely predict tomorrow’s weather, this month’s unemployment rate, the value of Facebook stock, or the next $5 billion snafu from the Prince of Wall Street – Jamie Dimon. But, we trust that Ben Bernanke, his fellow central bankers, and bunch of political hacks like Geithner know how to micro-manage the world economy.

Kindleberger understood exactly the risks in having an institutionalized lender of last resort:

    “One objection to helping either the borrowing banks and industry or lending to capitalists abroad was that it made both less prudent. In the insurance area this effect is called “moral hazard.” It is a strong argument for letting a financial crisis recover by itself, provided one is willing to take a long term view and worry equally, or almost equally, about a future financial crisis, as opposed to the present one. It requires a low rate of interest for trouble.” – Charles P. Kindleberger – Manias, Panics, and Crashes [3]   Link to full article and many useful charts
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/YtTAJLoK1CU/a-matter-of-trust-part-two (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/YtTAJLoK1CU/a-matter-of-trust-part-two)        :icon_study:


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: A High Frequency Attack on Gold
Post by: g on August 09, 2012, 05:19:46 PM
The swill are getting bolder and bolder with their manipulations and flaunting of their computer weapons of robbery and intimidation. The authorities kiss their asses for campaign money and jobs.


A High Frequency Attack on Gold
By Dimitri Speck
Created 9 Aug 2012

On June 7th, 2012, the price of gold dropped by $22 in less than a second, guided by a computer algorithm during late trading

Sharp price drops in gold, for example $10 within a few minutes, can be observed frequently. Often they occur several times per week. The decline that happened on June 7, 2012 looks, at first glance, like such a drop as well, although some observers immediately noticed the extremely high speed. Market reports assessed the timeframe from “43 seconds” to “less than 5 minutes”. According to spot price data with minute precision, the decrease was $20 in less than 2 minutes. The intraday chart below shows the price development in the spot market on June 7, 2012. The relevant decline is marked in red.

gold intraday 7 jun 2012 [1]
Fig. 1
A High Frequency Attack

However, what took place in the late evening hours of June 7th on the futures market is of a wholly different quality. As part of the CME Group, COMEX is the largest exchange for gold futures contracts. The exchange records each single trade with the exact time, price and quantity. These records are called Times & Sales report and are available from the CME. They reveal for June 7, 2012 for the period of one second, namely at 9:21 PM and 20 seconds CDT, a complex price attack in the high frequency range which can be performed only by specially programmed computers.

During that one second 501 prices were determined, among them 490 with volume, while during all other 3599 seconds of this trading hour on average only 1.87 trades per second were registered. In this one second the number of trades suddenly rose 260-fold! Figure 2 shows an excerpt of the Times & Sales report with the start of the relevant second for the most active August contract.

future exchange provides times and sales with all trades          Many interesting charts and proof with time sales data for the technically proficient in full article.           http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/EhBFye-rerw/a-high-frequency-attack-on-gold (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/EhBFye-rerw/a-high-frequency-attack-on-gold)                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                            :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on August 10, 2012, 09:35:32 AM
Thanks GO.

I'm still waiting sitting on my hands waiting to re-enter the market. Looking at the charts on Jesse's Cafe, we're getting into a technical wedge. I think I may wait to see what happens. http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/08/gold-daily-and-silver-weekly-charts_9.html (http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/08/gold-daily-and-silver-weekly-charts_9.html)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 11, 2012, 03:13:37 AM
Thanks GO.

I'm still waiting sitting on my hands waiting to re-enter the market. Looking at the charts on Jesse's Cafe, we're getting into a technical wedge. I think I may wait to see what happens. http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/08/gold-daily-and-silver-weekly-charts_9.html (http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/08/gold-daily-and-silver-weekly-charts_9.html)

Again JB, With all the humility possible from a man who has been humbled by the markets many a time, I urge you to tip toe in and dollar cost average. Understand they are insurance as well as investments and I think you will come to the conclusion you should have some at all times. So you buy some silver at 28 and it falls to 25, your target, and you buy some more, big deal. It could fall under twenty or go straight to fifty at least you have some and if it goes lower you buy more at more attractive prices. Ditto for Gold.
Buying it all at a preconceived price is not a good idea with any investment. Charts can be helpful but keep in mind two astute observers can interpret a chart in two different ways.         :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Billionaires Go For Gold
Post by: g on August 14, 2012, 07:04:37 PM
Billionaires go for gold
Updated 08:54 AM Aug 15, 2012

NEW YORK - Billionaire investors George Soros and John Paulson increased their stakes in the biggest exchange-traded fund backed by gold as prices posted the largest quarterly drop since 2008.

Soros Fund Management more than doubled its investment in the SPDR Gold Trust to 884,400 shares as of June 30, compared with three months earlier, a United States Securities and Exchange Commission filing for second-quarter holdings showed yesterday. Paulson & Co increased its holdings by 26 per cent to 21.8 million shares.

Gold slumped 4 per cent in the second quarter, the biggest such loss since Sept 30, 2008. Prices fell as European Central Bank President Mario Draghi and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S Bernanke failed to increase stimulus measures, damping the outlook for global growth and demand for the metal as a hedge against inflation. The price is down 0.1 per cent since June 30.

"It's all about easing, and people are waiting for the Fed since investors expect prices will rise," if the central bank announces more bond purchases, said Mr Walter "Bucky" Hellwig, who helps manage US$17 billion (S$21.2 billion) of assets at BB&T Wealth Management in Birmingham, Alabama. "People are willing to hold on to gold to see what the Fed will say."

The metal surged 70 per cent from the end of December 2008 to June 2011 as the Fed kept borrowing costs at a record low and bought US$2.3 trillion of debt in two rounds of so-called quantitative easing. Gold erased its gains this year in May as investors favored sovereign debt and the dollar as economic growth slowed.

Spokesmen for Mr Paulson and Mr Soros declined comment. BLOOMBERG
URL http://www.todayonline.com/Business/EDC120815-0000070/Billionaires-go-for-gold (http://www.todayonline.com/Business/EDC120815-0000070/Billionaires-go-for-gold)              :icon_study:
Title: China Gold Hoarding Acceleration
Post by: agelbert on August 15, 2012, 04:27:43 PM
Is China in the last stages of positioning to dump the dollar?

Quote
The Hoarding Continues: China Has Imported More Gold In Six Months Than Portugal's Entire Gold Reserve
Quote
China continues to do one thing. Buy. Because while earlier today we were wondering (rhetorically, of course) what China is doing with all that excess trade surplus if it is not recycling it back into Treasurys, now we once again find out that instead of purchasing US paper, Beijing continues to buy non-US gold, in the form of 68 tons in imports from Hong Kong in the month of June. The year to date total (6 months)? 383 tons. In other words, in half a year China, whose official total tally is still a massively underrepresented 1054 tons, has imported more gold than the official gold reserves of Portugal, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, the UK, and so on, and whose YTD imports alone make it the 14th largest holder of gold in the world.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/hoarding-continues-china-has-imported-more-gold-six-months-portugals-entire-gold-reserves (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/hoarding-continues-china-has-imported-more-gold-six-months-portugals-entire-gold-reserves)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold: Escape from Slavery
Post by: g on August 23, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
Vice President Joe Biden was accused of racism when suggesting a Romney administration would “unchain banks” that in turn might put the black audience he was talking to back into “shackles.” The political uproar overshadows a reality that knows no racial boundaries: a person in debt is not a free person; a nation in debt is not a free nation. Does it mean those with large bank accounts are free? Not so fast…

We don’t want to downplay the horrific crime of slavery, but want to provide food for thought: debt is often taken on voluntarily; once taken on, however, one is forced to work to pay off one’s debt. To be unshackled from banks and creditors, investors may want to consider living debt free and owning gold. Let us explain.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/sO9V25MvwV0/gold-escape-from-slavery (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/sO9V25MvwV0/gold-escape-from-slavery)

2012 08 22 chains dollar axel jpg
2012 08 22 chains dollar axel jpg
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on August 23, 2012, 07:47:42 AM
Aannnnd, I'm back in. Interestingly, when I called the broker to add to my position, he had to double check to make sure that the silver was available... I kid you not.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 23, 2012, 09:20:27 AM
Aannnnd, I'm back in. Interestingly, when I called the broker to add to my position, he had to double check to make sure that the silver was available... I kid you not.

Glad to hear it Jb, you just missed your 25 buy target, but you are a long way from the old high of 50. Best of luck, in there myself, not today, but over forty years.   :emthup:   
Morgan Silver Dollar
Morgan Silver Dollar
    :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on August 23, 2012, 10:32:56 AM
I was looking at the 5 year trend line for the bottom which was in the $25 -$26 range. It found a bottom just above that and held. I wanted to make sure this wasn't just a head fake. Once it crossed $30 I was sold. This comment on ZH this morning mirrors my own thinking:

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-08-22/my-predictions-august-come-true#comment-2729864 (http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-08-22/my-predictions-august-come-true#comment-2729864)

I figure the odds of the Fed letting the markets crash between now and elections is pretty low. If anything, I expect the longer trend line to continue as long as the situation around the world continues to deteriorate slowly. At some point I will cash out of the market completely, take the 30% early distribution hit and be happy about it. Timing is everything.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 23, 2012, 10:57:32 AM
I never sell my positions. Long term investor in the precious metals sector.

However I do trade the precious metal stocks and appreciate what you are saying. You never get hurt taking a profit, and I like the work silver did right above 25. They pummeled it forever and it never broke down from that area. By the way 25 is a very important Gann Number, if you are at all familiar with the famed technician. Certainly looks like a major bottom has been put in. Strong seasonal influences also for the precious metals from now until February March.                                                                                              :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on August 23, 2012, 12:22:21 PM
GO,

I am long physical and gamble with unallocated thru my IRA broker. I was lucky to get in at $16, took profit (on the way down) at $38 so I more than doubled my bet. Put that off to the side and then got back in today.

I've never heard of Gann; will look it up. It looks like we could be forming the bottom of a major bowl or cup and handle with previous high of 49 as first lip. We'll see. In the meantime, here's what I'm watching out for:

http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/08/descending-metals.html (http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/08/descending-metals.html)

(I've forgotten how to insert an image; how embarrassing!)

Thanks.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 23, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
GO,

I am long physical and gamble with unallocated thru my IRA broker. I was lucky to get in at $16, took profit (on the way down) at $38 so I more than doubled my bet. Put that off to the side and then got back in today.

I've never heard of Gann; will look it up. It looks like we could be forming the bottom of a major bowl or cup and handle with previous high of 49 as first lip. We'll see. In the meantime, here's what I'm watching out for:

http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/08/descending-metals.html (http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/08/descending-metals.html)

(I've forgotten how to insert an image; how embarrassing!)

Thanks.

Great charts Jb. amazing how they have that roughly the same pattern and successful tests of the lows. Still have my fingers crossed however, charts can be helpful but are far from infallible. Here are a few that show the work at the bottom you allude too.

sc
sc
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Republicans Eye Return to Gold Standard
Post by: g on August 24, 2012, 06:32:27 AM
 
The gold standard has returned to mainstream U.S. politics for the first time in 30 years, with a “gold commission” set to become part of official Republican party policy.

Gold
Comstock Images | Getty Images
Drafts of the party platform, which it will adopt at a convention in Tampa Bay, Florida, next week, call for an audit of Federal Reserve monetary policy and a commission to look at restoring the link between the dollar and gold.

The move shows how five years of easy monetary policy — and the efforts of congressman Ron Paul — have made the once-fringe idea of returning to gold-as-money a legitimate part of Republican debate.

Marsha Blackburn, a Republican congresswoman from Tennessee and co-chair of the platform committee, said the issues were not adopted merely to placate Paul and the delegates that he picked up during his campaign for the party’s nomination.

“These were adopted because they are things that Republicans agree on,” Blackburn told the Financial Times. “The House recently passed a bill on this, and this is something that we think needs to be done.”    :icon_sunny:   :icon_study:      www.cnbc.com/id/48770752 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/48770752)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Doug Casey Says Day of Economic Reckoning Is Near
Post by: g on August 26, 2012, 04:19:02 PM
It is a deal with the devil: Governments churn out more and more cash for the promise of continued prosperity. But the day of reckoning is near, according to Doug Casey, chairman of Casey Research and an expert on crisis investing. As the epic battle between inflation and deflation continues, Casey discusses his predictions for the new world market in this exclusive interview with The Gold Report.

The Gold Report: There will be a Casey Research Summit on "Navigating the Politicized Economy" in Carlsbad, Calif., in September. The thesis behind the summit is that governments have made a Faustian bargain, a pact with the devil, that saves the empire with overspending, but drives it to the brink of collapse by creating fiat currencies. Doug, where in that story is the economy currently?

Doug Casey: It's extremely late in the day. Since World War II, and especially since 1971 when the link between the dollar and gold was broken, governments around the world have accepted the Keynesian theory of economics, which boils down to a belief that printing money can stimulate the economy and create prosperity. The result has been to create huge amounts of individual and government debt. It's become insupportable. All it has done is purchase a few extra years of artificial prosperity, and we're heading deeper into a very real depression as a result.

    "We have been consuming more than we have been producing and living above our means."

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/WM04eZJdJsE/14199 (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/WM04eZJdJsE/14199)          :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on August 26, 2012, 04:36:32 PM
Excellent; thank you GO.

I would argue that the governments around the world did not "accept(ed) the Keynesian theory of economics," but rather bastardized it on purpose to suit their needs.

The only questions are How and When this all goes to hell in a hand-basket.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 26, 2012, 05:04:31 PM
Quote Jb
"Excellent; thank you GO.

I would argue that the governments around the world did not "accept(ed) the Keynesian theory of economics," but rather bastardized it on purpose to suit their needs.

The only questions are How and When this all goes to hell in a hand-basket."


Hi Jb, I am in the big inflation soon camp, then a flirtation with hyperinflation, followed by an epic deflationary bust that is totally destructive to all asset values, but who the hell knows anything anymore.? Nothing adds up anymore and we all know it will end somewhere, sometime, but it is all just a guess. Hope I am not sounding foolish but I think they can play games and hold it up for as long as a decade perhaps, subject to changing my mind 5 minutes from now.    :dontknow: :dontknow:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on August 27, 2012, 03:22:46 AM
 Gold and silver off to the races?
http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/newsdesk/gold-and-silver-off-to-the-races.html (http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/newsdesk/gold-and-silver-off-to-the-races.html)

Excited spectator Gold and silver prices posted very strong finishes to the end of last week, and look like they could at long last be at the start of a significant trending move higher. Gold gained 3.46% over the week, with silver recording an impressive 8.98% weekly gain. The white metal has broken above an important resistance level at $30, and judging from the price action this morning looks like it could launch a quick assault on $32.50 – a level that marked stubborn resistance for much of the first half of this year.

Over at KingWorldNews, commodity guru Dan Norcini notes the rash of short covering that took place in the silver market last week. He points to $35-$35.50 as the last “line in the sand” for these speculative shorts, and thinks that we could see a huge new influx of money on the long side of the market if this price level is bested. $40 will then be in play again.

The story is similar in gold. If the yellow metal rises above $1,700, we can expect to see speculators dashing to cover their short positions. Aside from the increasing likelihood that the Federal Reserve is getting ready to launch another money printing scheme within the next few weeks, gold bugs have also been encouraged by chatter about the Republican National Convention (due to meet in Tampa this week, barring problems with hurricanes) including a plank in the convention platform calling for a “gold commission” to study the feasibility of relinking the US dollar to gold.

Of course, a similar congressional commission was convened in the early 1980s, and to nobody’s great surprise endorsed the (non gold standard) status quo. Given the restraints that a genuine gold-dollar link would impose on federal spending, it is in fact almost inconceivable to imagine Washington voluntarily agreeing to return to a gold standard. But even accounting for these caveats and the fact that this latest idea probably owes more to Romney-Ryan trying to secure votes from Ron Paul supporters (many of whom will be tempted to stay at home on election day), it is at least encouraging to see gold once again becoming a mainstream discussion point.

Less encouraging are the continuing misconceptions fostered by lazy and/or ignorant journalists about gold’s use as money. But that’s a discussion for another article.     :icon_sunny:                                        :icon_study:
         
 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Eric Sprott Cautions " Fear the Financial System"
Post by: g on August 28, 2012, 04:24:42 AM
The Gold Report: You've stated before that the price of gold should be above $3,200/ounce (oz) and the price of silver above $200/oz but market manipulation keeps both metals artificially low. Who is manipulating it?

Eric Sprott: I suspect the G6 central banks have a hand in subverting the gold price because as the canary in the coal mine, high gold prices might tip everyone off to the severity of the ongoing financial crisis. I don't think anyone can doubt that we're in the middle of a financial crisis, primarily in the banking system, when month after month one program after another is rolled out to save somebody, whether it's Long-Term Refinancing Operations (LTROs), quantitative easings (QEs), bank bailouts in Spain or rollovers of debt in Greece.         :icon_study:
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/TfuWkwMvLgg/14210 (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/theaureport/Ajgh/~3/TfuWkwMvLgg/14210)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 04, 2012, 07:11:27 AM
December Gold at 1700, December silver over 32.

Nice going Jb, nice entry point on silver.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 04, 2012, 07:34:59 AM
Mornin' GO,

I'm not celebrating yet, but glad I didn't wait any longer. We'll see if this is truly a return to the longer trend. My own novice opinion is that beginning in 2008, the metals and in particular silver, stop being commodities and reverted to money as last resort.

Interesting that the metals did well last week despite Bernanke's lack of specific details. I was worried that the metal market was looking heavily to Jackson Hole for an excuse to go higher. Apparently, that is no longer the case. Spain is in real trouble, Obama is pulling troops out of Afghanistan in a hurry (and go where?), Egypt will collapse without subsidies from her traditional allies, failure of the US corn crop and the effects on food and fuel prices, etc. It seems to me the Fed is losing the battle and becoming irrelevant as events move beyond it's sphere of influence. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 04, 2012, 07:43:53 AM
Morning Jb. Sure is a horrible picture out there. Black swans everywhere possible and probable. Big inflation in food prices almost a certainty.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 04, 2012, 08:01:49 AM
And here we go, right on cue:

http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/09/greece-exits-euro-usd-rallies-gold.html#more (http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/09/greece-exits-euro-usd-rallies-gold.html#more)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 04, 2012, 08:11:31 AM
This chart highlights my concern well enough.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zmS9BAtDPh4/UEX6OnGEdoI/AAAAAAAAQNM/pirk3_0Di8U/s1600/120904-D.png)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 04, 2012, 03:46:08 PM
Aaannnd then you read stuff like this and want to buy anything tangible, physical, and hold it your possession...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-04/saudi-arabia-may-become-oil-importer-by-2030-citigroup-says-1-.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-04/saudi-arabia-may-become-oil-importer-by-2030-citigroup-says-1-.html)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 04, 2012, 04:52:58 PM
Aaannnd then you read stuff like this and want to buy anything tangible, physical, and hold it your possession...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-04/saudi-arabia-may-become-oil-importer-by-2030-citigroup-says-1-.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-04/saudi-arabia-may-become-oil-importer-by-2030-citigroup-says-1-.html)

We certainly have some pressing problems to deal with, and it had better be real soon.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:How Long Will Dollar Remain the World’s Reserve Currency
Post by: g on September 04, 2012, 05:24:57 PM
From Ron Paul
We frequently hear the financial press refer to the U.S. dollar as the “world’s reserve currency,” implying that our dollar will always retain its value in an ever shifting world economy. But this is a dangerous and mistaken assumption.

Since August 15, 1971, when President Nixon closed the gold window and refused to pay out any of our remaining 280 million ounces of gold, the U.S. dollar has operated as a pure fiat currency. This means the dollar became an article of faith in the continued stability and might of the U.S. government.

In essence, we declared our insolvency in 1971. Everyone recognized some other monetary system had to be devised in order to bring stability to the markets.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/-LuHmo2HPOw/how-long-will-dollar-remain-worlds-reserve-currency (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/-LuHmo2HPOw/how-long-will-dollar-remain-worlds-reserve-currency)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on September 05, 2012, 01:59:23 AM
As has been discussed her before, the sole underwriter of the USD is the Big Ass Military (BAM) and its thousands of nukes.

It says here that one of the reasons that Gaddafi got it in the neck was that he proposed the Gold Dinar. Also, you'll recall that all the "nuke Iran" talk started in earnest a few years ago when Iran proposed an oil bourse that would bypass the USD.

Just coincidences, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Why is Putin Stockpiling Gold?
Post by: g on September 06, 2012, 04:47:40 AM
 


Sept. 5, 2012, 4:16 p.m. EDT
Why is Putin stockpiling gold?
Commentary: Russia is bulking up its gold reserve

By Brett Arends

I can’t imagine it means anything cheerful that Vladimir Putin, the Russian czar, is stockpiling gold as fast as he can get his hands on it.

According to the World Gold Council, Russia has more than doubled its gold reserves in the past five years. Putin has taken advantage of the financial crisis to build the world’s fifth-biggest gold pile in a handful of years, and is buying about half a billion dollars’ worth every month.                          
INVESTING STRATEGIES
• Is it too late to buy gun stocks?
• More bad news — this time from insiders
• ‘Fiscal cliff’ tax hike won’t kill dividend income

It emerged last month that financial gurus George Soros and John Paulson had also increased their bullion exposure, but it’s Putin that’s really caught my eye.

No one else in the world plays global power politics as ruthlessly as Russia’s chilling strongman, the man who effectively stole a Super Bowl ring from Bob Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, when they met in Russia some years ago.

Putin’s moves may matter to your finances, because there are two ways to look at gold.

On the one hand, it’s an investment that by most modern standards seems to make no sense. It generates no cash flow and serves no practical purpose. Warren Buffett has pointed out that we dig it out of one hole in the ground only to stick it in another, and anyone watching this from Mars would be very confused.

You can forget claims that it’s “real” money. There’s no such thing. Money is just an accounting device, a way of keeping track of how much each of us produces and consumes. Gold is a shiny and somewhat tacky looking metal that is malleable, durable and heavy. A recent research paper by Duke University’s Campbell Harvey and co-author Claude Erb raised serious questions about most of the arguments in favor of gold as an investment.

But there’s another way to look at gold: As the most liquid reserve in times of turmoil, or worse.

The big story of our era is not that the Spanish government is broke, nor is it that Paul Ryan apparently feels the need to embellish his running record. It’s that the United States, which has dominated the world’s economy for several lifetimes, is in relative decline.      :icon_study:                             

www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/print?guid=9F27FB2E-F793-11E1-A4AB-002128049AD6 (http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/print?guid=9F27FB2E-F793-11E1-A4AB-002128049AD6)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 06, 2012, 05:51:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxVsosT3GAw&feature=youtu.be# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxVsosT3GAw&feature=youtu.be#)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 06, 2012, 07:27:38 AM
Murphy has done a great job exposing the swill Jb. All the markets of course are now rigged but none greater than gold and silver.

Remember that nothing is more powerful than a bull market that has been held back by lies, propaganda and manipulation. When it finally breaks loose from those shackles you can usually expect a real fireworks display.

Conversely if the manipulation is to the upside, as for stocks and bonds, "Look Out Below".     :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 06, 2012, 08:53:11 AM
Quote
In a desperate bid to save the U.S. dollar, Volcker increased the funds rate to an unprecedented 20% in mid 1981, pushing the prime interest rate to a usurious 21.5% by the middle of 1982. Finally, Volcker's radical intervention slowed the rate of CPI inflation and restored confidence in the U.S. dollar. It also brought the price of crude oil down and smashed the prices of gold and silver.

I was too busy playing high school soccer to pay any attention to this.

Quote
What was more important was that the prices of gold and crude oil tended to correlate. The implication of Gibson's Paradox was that interest rates could remain low as long as the price of gold did not rise

Ah, now I understand the need to manage the price.

Quote
The flaw was that the Federal Reserve had absolutely no control over the flow of increased liquidity resulting from its policies.

Yep, noticed that.

Quote
Setting aside flat to declining supplies of sweet light crude oil (Peak Oil), the fact that the price of gold has risen roughly 500% in a single decade suggests much higher oil prices in the future.

Ah, but now we come to Chris Nelder's 'Narrow Ledge'... Who will pay more than $147/b?

Quote
A successful invasion of Iran would eliminate the largest non U.S. dollar oil exporter, delaying the breakdown of the U.S. dollar's status as the world reserve currency. Although a war with Iran would cause a spike in oil prices, U.S. control of Iran's oil would increase the supply of oil available for purchase in U.S. dollars, which would bring the U.S. dollar price of oil down and enhance the ability of the U.S. to manage the price of oil to meet the needs of the U.S. economy.

According to this logic, gold would decline alongside the price of oil IF the regime were replaced through a negotiated cease fire or go back to selling oil for dollars, and the oil infrastructure remained undamaged. The process of shifting Iranian oil to US friendly markets could take longer than the US economy could survive on higher prices. And what will India, China and Russia have to say about this oil grab, hmmm? I don't think it's the Iranian response we're worried about.

In the meantime, it sounds to me like gold should move higher as interest rates around the world remain flat and central banks keep buying it.

Source: http://seekingalpha.com/article/499411-pending-iran-military-action-and-the-historical-effect-of-wars-on-the-u-s-dollar (http://seekingalpha.com/article/499411-pending-iran-military-action-and-the-historical-effect-of-wars-on-the-u-s-dollar)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Draghi Launches Unlimited Bond Purchases by ECB
Post by: g on September 07, 2012, 04:35:23 AM
Ho hum, No surprise here for Gold Bugs       :icon_study:

Markets reacted exuberantly as the European Central Bank’s President Mario Draghi announced Thursday in Frankfurt that there will be “unlimited bond purchases” by the central bank, which oversees the common euro currency.

Judging by the market’s reaction to the central bank’s announcement, the ECB is now taking center stage when it comes solving the debt crisis in Europe and boosting market confidence. While the market hardly moved following recent Fed meetings in the United States, where expectations were high but largely not met, stocks were up across the board Thursday following the ECB’s announcement to buy peripheral bonds—bonds issued by heavily indebted eurozone countries.
www.theepochtimes.com/n2/business/draghi-launches-unlimited-bond-purchases-by-european-central-bank-289326-print.html (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/business/draghi-launches-unlimited-bond-purchases-by-european-central-bank-289326-print.html)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on September 07, 2012, 08:59:26 AM
There could be no other way for the ECB.  Just a matter of when.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on September 07, 2012, 01:42:39 PM
USD Down more than 1% today.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 07, 2012, 02:23:02 PM
USD Down more than 1% today.

Against mostly the Euro, another piece of toilet paper. Amazing how the lemmings jump from one piece of paper to another seeking safety.

Wonder if they will ever realize their folly?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 07, 2012, 02:57:14 PM
There could be no other way for the ECB.  Just a matter of when.

True enough, but you would be surprised at the people that don't see it that way. It always amazes me how they con them into thinking no more printing.

Of course that doesn't mean there will not come a time that it doesn't work, but that is another topic. I talk to seemingly sane people all the time that think deflation is the option they are going to take, that defend the currency talk, after 4000 years of debasement gets them all the time. Utterly amazing.       :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on September 07, 2012, 03:35:33 PM
Euro Pump & Dump.  The currency traders are Pumping the Euro before it crashes.  Getting the Low Hanging Fruit to sell dollars and buy Euros right before they pull the rug out.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 07, 2012, 03:44:37 PM
Euro Pump & Dump.  The currency traders are Pumping the Euro before it crashes.  Getting the Low Hanging Fruit to sell dollars and buy Euros right before they pull the rug out.

RE

For sure. Word is a massive short squeeze taking place also. Big players caught, hedge funds etc. It won't last long IMHO. The Euro is another ass hole politicians idea. A fiat currency without a country, how ridiculous can you get.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Gold Imports To China Double Again
Post by: g on September 08, 2012, 10:30:08 PM
China has already imported more gold in 2012 than all the gold held by the ECB (502 tons). China, now the world's largest gold producer and importer of bullion, is accumulating gold as the West divests. Only one is right.  full article...

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/2012/09/07/gold-imports-to-china-from-hong-kong-double-again?t=mining-investments (http://www.resourceinvestor.com/2012/09/07/gold-imports-to-china-from-hong-kong-double-again?t=mining-investments)      :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 11, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
Interesting article at ZH this morning:

"“Gold is being used as an instrument for payment. Under the guise of exportation, gold is being sent to Iran in exchange for oil,” Sinan Aygün, a deputy from the Republican People's Party (CHP), has told Turkish daily Today's Zaman."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/iran-gold-imports-turkey-surge-8-billion-ytd-gold-increasingly-used-currency (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/iran-gold-imports-turkey-surge-8-billion-ytd-gold-increasingly-used-currency)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 13, 2012, 09:56:44 AM
Rickards was correct (again):

"So look for the following sequence of events. On August 31, the Fed will give strong indications that more quantitative easing should be expected if economic conditions do not show substantial improvement. On September 6, expect the European Central Bank to lower its main lending rate by 25 basis points to 0.50 percent. Then on September 7 look for an employment report weaker than consensus estimates due partly to quirks in seasonal adjustments. This will give the Fed economic justification and political cover for the start of a new quantitative easing program on September 13. This double-dose of ECB and Fed ease should give stock markets a lift through the fall at least until the twin dangers of the fiscal cliff and war with Iran stare investors in the face later this year."

Source: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/08/20/how-china-is-driving-federal-reserve-policy (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/08/20/how-china-is-driving-federal-reserve-policy)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/market-response-goldsilvertreasury-yields-spike-equities-less-sure (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/market-response-goldsilvertreasury-yields-spike-equities-less-sure)

I might have to open a home-brew this afternoon.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Gold Imports To China Double Again
Post by: alan2102 on September 13, 2012, 07:55:23 PM
China has already imported more gold in 2012 than all the gold held by the ECB (502 tons). China, now the world's largest gold producer and importer of bullion, is accumulating gold as the West divests.

Yes. India, too. This one reason -- one of many -- that China is NOT toast. Quite the contrary. It is WE who are toast, at least relatively speaking.

The big question is: what is China's REAL gold holding? As opposed to the official stat of circa 1000 tons, that is.  I'll bet it is at least 5,000.

The common people of India (i.e. NOT the banks, not the rich) hold an astonishing 20,000 tons!  After the big reset -- after gold is re-priced to some astronomical number, as it will be -- the people of India will suddenly have, collectively, far more financial (and other) power than anyone would have dreamed before the moment it happens.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Gold Imports To China Double Again
Post by: RE on September 13, 2012, 09:21:37 PM

The common people of India (i.e. NOT the banks, not the rich) hold an astonishing 20,000 tons!  After the big reset -- after gold is re-priced to some astronomical number, as it will be -- the people of India will suddenly have, collectively, far more financial (and other) power than anyone would have dreamed before the moment it happens.

Plenty-o-Gold, no Food, no Water, no Electricity...the Indians are...

(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dco0336l.jpg)

Where ya been Alan?  Vacation?

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Gold Imports To China Double Again
Post by: g on September 14, 2012, 02:44:21 AM
China has already imported more gold in 2012 than all the gold held by the ECB (502 tons). China, now the world's largest gold producer and importer of bullion, is accumulating gold as the West divests.

Yes. India, too. This one reason -- one of many -- that China is NOT toast. Quite the contrary. It is WE who are toast, at least relatively speaking.

The big question is: what is China's REAL gold holding? As opposed to the official stat of circa 1000 tons, that is.  I'll bet it is at least 5,000.

The common people of India (i.e. NOT the banks, not the rich) hold an astonishing 20,000 tons!  After the big reset -- after gold is re-priced to some astronomical number, as it will be -- the people of India will suddenly have, collectively, far more financial (and other) power than anyone would have dreamed before the moment it happens.

True Alan, They have lots of the precious yellow, they are not shy in the hoarding of silver department either. They are a people that have been ravaged by fiat currencies much more than most others.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Karpatok on September 14, 2012, 03:12:04 AM
   Yes. Just waiting to cash in my family hoard so that I can eat again.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Gold Imports To China Double Again
Post by: alan2102 on September 14, 2012, 03:22:18 AM
Plenty-o-Gold, no Food, no Water, no Electricity
Plenty-o-Gold... with which to buy that other stuff. And it will buy PLENTY. That's where this is heading.

Quote
Where ya been Alan?  Vacation?
My policy is to spend time on these fora only occasionally, in spurts, or dribs and drabs, as the spirit moves me, when I feel like expressing something that needs expression.  No forum is worth more than a modest total slice of my time.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: alan2102 on September 17, 2012, 06:03:40 PM

Implications of China’s Appetite for Gold

China’s appetite for gold is featured in this post found on the gold-eagle forum, and apparently not available anywhere else (I did some searching on bing and google to verify). This one is worth reading, IMO.

Money quote (pardon pun): China’s dire need to diversify its foreign reserves will propel the price of gold to unprecedented new all-time highs … regardless of what action the US Federal Reserve bank takes in cutting the Fed Funds rate.

Well all RIGHTY then!

It has been obvious for many years. The fundamentals are all in alignment, and grow stronger by the month. As admirably as gold and silver have performed over the last 10 years, the best is clearly yet to come.

—alan2102

…………………………

http://www.gold-eagle.com/cgi-bin/gn/get/forum.html (http://www.gold-eagle.com/cgi-bin/gn/get/forum.html)

(Ho_Yen_Tsi) Sep 17, 17:28

Monumental ramifications of China’s necessity to buy gold to diversity foreign reserves

text continues here:
http://alan2102.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/implications-of-chinas-appetite-for-gold/ (http://alan2102.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/implications-of-chinas-appetite-for-gold/)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 18, 2012, 06:15:42 AM
alan2102,

Thanks for the links. It seems like such a Herculean task for the Chinese to diversify at this point. If the Chinese continue on this path, then I think you're right: 'the present secular bull market in gold is today in its early infant stages.'
Title: Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry Distri
Post by: agelbert on September 25, 2012, 02:43:20 AM
Quote
Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry District

UH OH...

fake gold 1
fake gold 1
fake gold 2
fake gold 2
fake gold 3
fake gold 3
fake gold 4
fake gold 4



Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/18/2012 20:42 -0400

Quote
It is one thing for tungsten-filled gold bars to appear in the UK, or in Germany: after all out of sight, and across the Atlantic, certainly must mean out of mind, and out of the safe. However, when a 10 ounce 999.9 gold bar bearing the stamp of the reputable Swiss Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux (PAMP, with owner MTP) and a serial number (serial #038892, likely rehypothecated in at least 10 gold ETFs across the world but that's a different story), mysteriously emerges in the heart of the world's jewerly district located on 47th street in Manhattan, things get real quick.

Moments ago, Myfoxny reported that a 10-ounce gold bar costing nearly $18,000 turned out to be a counterfeit. The discovery was made by the dealer Ibrahim Fadl, who bought the PAMP bar in question from a merchant who has sold him real gold before. "But he heard counterfeit gold bars were going around, so he drilled into several of his gold bars worth $100,000 and saw gray tungsten -- not gold. The bar was filled with tungsten, which weighs nearly the same as gold but costs just over a dollar an ounce."

What makes so devious is a real gold bar is purchased with the serial numbers and papers, then it is hollowed out, the gold is sold, the tungsten is put in, then the bar is closed up. That is a sophisticated operation.[/color]

MTB, the Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.

Raymond Nessim, CEO Manfra, Tordell & Brookes, said he has reported the situation to the FBI and Secret Service.

The Secret Service, which deals with counterfeits, said it is investigating.

And cue panic on the realization that virtually any gold bar in the world, not just those in Europe and Australia, which have already had close encounters with Tungsten substitutes, but also New York may be hollowed out and have a real worth of a few dollars max. Which, sadly, is fitting considering our main story from last night was the realization that an unknown amount of Chinese iron ore had either never existed or had simply vaporized, and was no longer serving as the secured collateral to various liabilities circulating in the electronic ether. After all, only the most naive out there could conceive of gold being sacrosanct when every other asset class is being diluted to infinity by a regime that has long since run out of money.

As for gold-based transactions on West 47th street: look for that market to grind to a halt at least for as long as it takes for this scandal to be forgotten too.
The only open question remaining will be how much of the gold located 90 feet below Libert 33 is in the same Tungstenized format. For what it's worth: it is unlikely we will ever find out.

This is what glaring gold counterfeiting looks like.

And for the reading challenged:

New York News | NYC Breaking News

All that said, with false flags rampant these days, we would not be surprised if this is merely yet another attempt to discredit gold, this time physical, as an undilutable medium of warehousing wealth. So buyer beware: in a time when everyone is broke, triple check before exchanging one store of wealth for another.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district)
Title: Gold Bar and Coin Counterfeiting
Post by: RE on September 25, 2012, 03:12:35 AM
Quote
Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry District

This is one of the numerous reasons I don't think it is possible to return to a PM standard of any type.

Coin Counterfeiting is actually EASIER to do than Paper Currency counterfeiting, just about anybody can make the Molds in Plaster to do this.  Much harder to make finely engraved Plates printed on Special Paper only Da Goobermint has access to.

With Gold skyrocketing to the MOON here in value, the temptation to Counterfeit is enormous.  How are you going to Test a Coin you buy from a Coin Dealer?  He's not going to let your Drill into the Coin.  With Tungsten so close in Density to Gold, you can't detect the difference with Archimedes Testing.  Unless somebody comes up with a cheap tester that measures Magnetic properties or something like that which might identify the purity of the Coin, the chances it is a Counterfeit grow by the day and until you cut it open you won't know if it is Counterfeit or Real.

Similarly, the idea you could TRUST a Centrally held Gold Horde in either a Private Bank or a Goobermint CB is exceedingly small here.  They can easily Inflate their Gold Paperweight in the Vault by hollowing out a few Bars now and then, and even it you HAD good Auditors who were not on the Take, the bad bars get hidden deep under the pile and don't get sniffed out for quite some time if ever.

Then comes the problem that if indeed the Currency is truly Convertible to Gold (or Silver), who in their right mind would hold onto savings as the Paper Certificate?  You go to the Bank and ask for the Gold Equivalent.  So pretty quick the Horde of Gold held by the Bank is now distributed out, and the Bank holds nothing but PAPER!  Said Bank of course will not remain in Bizness too long after that happens.

One wonders with all these stories coming out here now about Counterfeit Gold Coins how many Gold Bugs are busy Drilling Out their Coins to see if there is a Tungsten Slug inside?  Gotta be a bit worrisome for a Gold Bug.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 25, 2012, 04:31:26 AM
Quote from Agelbert's posted article, All that said, with false flags rampant these days, we would not be surprised if this is merely yet another attempt to discredit gold, this time physical, as an undilutable medium of warehousing wealth. So buyer beware: in a time when everyone is broke, triple check before exchanging one store of wealth for another.

That is all it is Diners. Another tactic from the banker filth to keep the dim dim and the brainwashed brainwashed as they turn in the toilet paper they created for you into gold and silver as most of the dim watch with their head up their ass.

I hope there is no one here silly or idiotic enough to think it has been any of the 99% or OWS that has sent gold into its orbit of recent years as they struggle with the USURY and Inflation that their evil bankster filth have bestowed upon them.

"Doing God's Work" is what the bankster dog shit call it.  " Gold Sucks Paper and Credit are Good"  so sayeth my friendly bankster.

They do good work, don't be conned again by them.
1 oz Gold Ox
1 oz Gold Ox
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on September 25, 2012, 09:11:03 AM
This above would be another worthy avatar for you, GO!

 :emthup:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 25, 2012, 09:36:58 AM
This above would be another worthy avatar for you, GO!

 :emthup:
Thanks Surly, Strange you mentioned it , had the same thought, but after the events around here lately, I just hate to join the group that has two faces; pun intended.   ;D :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 25, 2012, 09:46:20 AM
 Quote Surly "FWIW, this exchange is one of the reasons I come to the Diner and have invested so much tme and effort in it. It is difficult to have a genuinely human exchange in a virtual community, but here it is. The humanity and decency in AG's approach is a model we all ought to emulate. Well done.

Glad to see you back.

And take heart-- some of us are reading, and listening, whether we reply or not."

No truer words ever uttered Surly, Agelbert has fast become one of our treasured posters, a truly outstanding person.

How I laugh to myself when I think of Ilargi beating up on him with his billy club, what a dunce.

Oh God forbid, there is that friggin Censorship topic brought up again. Sorry everybody, it was just a slip of the tongue. No way, it slipped out, please believe me.   :icon_mrgreen:    ;D
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: From China's Leading Credit Agency(Our Largest Creditor)
Post by: g on September 27, 2012, 07:46:25 PM
Sounds reasonable to me.       :icon_study:


U.S. QE3 signals deepening credit crisis: Dagong
English.news.cn   2012-09-28 00:07:21    [RSS]    [Feedback]    [Print]    [Copy URL]    [More]

BEIJING, Sept. 27 (Xinhua) -- China's leading credit rating agency Dagong said Thursday that the third round of quantitative easing implemented by the United States signals the country's deepening credit crisis and dropping solvency.

Dagong Global Credit Rating Co., Ltd. said in a statement commenting on the U.S.'s third round of quantitative easing, also known as the QE3, that the policy cannot promote the country's economic recovery and may further worsen its macroeconomic environment in the mid- and long-terms.

Dagong said the QE3 cannot alleviate the private sector's debt burden in a short time and rid the financial system of excessive liquidity, and, thus, will not serve to provide new impetus for economic growth.

The policy will also weaken the private sector's willingness to save and will drive up international commodity prices, Dagong said.

"It will plunge the country's economy into a long-term recession, create reliance on loose monetary policy and expansionary fiscal policy, and lead to a rising debt burden and increased credit risks," Dagong said.

The open-ended QE3 signals a drop in the country's solvency and has caused the continuous decline in its national credit, it said.

On Sept. 13, the U.S. Federal Reserve announced a new round of bond-buying program and extended the duration of its ultra-low interest rates to bolster the country's weak economic recovery.
Editor: Mu Xuequan

news.xinhuanet.com/english/business/2012-09/28/c_123772151.htm
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on September 28, 2012, 05:09:37 AM
Agreed; thanks GO.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 28, 2012, 05:26:18 AM
Gold perking along nicely huh Jb?  I have never seen a 250 point rally in gold draw so little attention, a very very good sign me thinks. Triple witching Friday today, the markets could get quite crazy.

Gold stocks finally coming to life, strong seasonal influences at work also.   GO
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on September 29, 2012, 10:29:48 AM
Any bets that gold will reach $2000 within the next 12 months?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 29, 2012, 01:03:22 PM
Any bets that gold will reach $2000 within the next 12 months?
I think it is highly likely Monsta, but what is your point?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on September 29, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
I think it is highly likely Monsta, but what is your point?
It will be a significant landmark since gold has not reached the $2000 mark. There was not a big point to this remark but jumping to $2000 would send a large message that the state of the overall economy is weakening even further. Moreover, if gold rallies and beats inflation year on year investing in gold will become a more mainstream idea that will not be limited to paranoid gold bugs. At least the MSM can no longer use that argument against gold if the price keeps going up. You can argue this wider acceptance of gold is a good thing but this greater acceptance could also get unwanted attention namely through gold counterfeiters. 

In any case what could be interesting is to make a bet on the price of gold for the coming year. The one with the best guess wins a price of some sort?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on September 29, 2012, 02:12:46 PM
I think it is highly likely Monsta, but what is your point?
It will be a significant landmark since gold has not reached the $2000 mark. There was not a big point to this remark but jumping to $2000 would send a large message that the state of the overall economy is weakening even further. Moreover, if gold rallies and beats inflation year on year investing in gold will become a more mainstream idea that will not be limited to paranoid gold bugs. At least the MSM can no longer use that argument against gold if the price keeps going up. You can argue this wider acceptance of gold is a good thing but this greater acceptance could also get unwanted attention namely through gold counterfeiters. 

In any case what could be interesting is to make a bet on the price of gold for the coming year. The one with the best guess wins a price of some sort?
Yes Monstsa, I get your point about the fanfare and attention those round numbers cause in the minds of the simple. Amazing how a move to over 1900 has very little significance to them, but 2000 causes the horns and trumpets to come out.
Will pass on making a bet, have quite a few Quid laid down upon the green felt on real money vs make believe already. It has been a winning bet for forty years in my case and wish to just stay pat for now. GOOD LUCK
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 01, 2012, 07:12:19 AM
Quote
Gold perking along nicely huh Jb?

Went away for the weekend; wife and I celebrating our 20th. Nice to come back to the pop in PMs today; silver going over $35.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-01/gold-touches-2012-highs (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-01/gold-touches-2012-highs)

Although I was extremely disappointed to read:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/28/us-cftc-positionlimits-idUSBRE88R1C120120928 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/28/us-cftc-positionlimits-idUSBRE88R1C120120928)

Onward!
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Pimco on Gold-The Simple Facts
Post by: g on October 02, 2012, 05:01:18 AM

GOLD – The Simple Facts

When it comes to investing in gold, investors often see the world in black and white. Some people have a deep, almost religious conviction that gold is a useless, barbarous relic with no yield; it’s an asset no rational investor would ever want. Others love it, seeing it as the only asset that can offer protection from the coming financial catastrophe, which is always just around the corner.

Our views are more nuanced and, we believe, provide a balanced framework for assessing value. Our bottom line: given current valuations and central bank policies, we see gold as a compelling inflation hedge and store of value that is potentially superior to fiat currencies.

We believe investors should consider allocating gold and other precious metals to a diversified investment portfolio. The supply of gold is constrained, and we see demand increasing consistent with global economic growth on a per capita basis. Regarding inflation in particular, we feel that the Federal Reserve’s decision to begin a third round of quantitative easing makes gold even more attractive.


A unique store of value

For more than a millennium, gold has served as a store of value and a medium of exchange. It has broadly managed to maintain its real value, even as various currency regimes have come and gone. The reason is that the supply of gold is not at the whim of any governmental power; it is fundamentally supply constrained. Total outstanding above-ground gold stocks – the amount that has been extracted over the past few millennia – are roughly 155,000 metric tons. Each year mines supply roughly 2,600 additional metric tons, or 1.7% of the outstanding total. This is why gold can be thought of as the currency without a printing press.      :icon_study:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-01/pimco-gold-simple-facts (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-01/pimco-gold-simple-facts)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 03, 2012, 08:49:21 AM
Here's Bill Gross:

"Unless we begin to close this gap, then the inevitable result will be that our debt/GDP ratio will continue to rise, the Fed would print money to pay for the deficiency, inflation would follow and the dollar would inevitably decline. Bonds would be burned to a crisp and stocks would certainly be singed; only gold and real assets would thrive within the “Ring of Fire.

http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Damages.aspx (http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Damages.aspx)

Sounds like the default plan to me.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 03, 2012, 09:10:10 AM
Here's Bill Gross:

"Unless we begin to close this gap, then the inevitable result will be that our debt/GDP ratio will continue to rise, the Fed would print money to pay for the deficiency, inflation would follow and the dollar would inevitably decline. Bonds would be burned to a crisp and stocks would certainly be singed; only gold and real assets would thrive within the “Ring of Fire.

http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Damages.aspx (http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Damages.aspx)Sounds like the default plan to me.
Hi JB, Bernanke has made it rather clear, at least it certainly sounds that way to me; that they are going to default through inflation. Actually it has been going on for quite some time.

The only question is can it work with a debt load this gigantic, and for how long. Would seem having a stash of gold and silver would be prudent since no one knows for sure. The debt can never be paid in current dollars, that's the only thing that appears absolutely factual as I see it.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 03, 2012, 10:38:39 AM
Quote
The only question is can it work with a debt load this gigantic, and for how long.

Maybe they only have to keep it going until something or someone else blinks first. Speaking of which, Iran's economy is imploding: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19812482 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19812482)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Signs of The Gold Standard Emerging in China
Post by: g on October 04, 2012, 03:38:20 PM
Signs Of The Gold Standard Emerging In China?                                                                               

To get rich is glorious.

– Deng Xiaoping
                                                                                                                                                 :icon_study:
(Photo Source: Wikipedia, http://bit.ly/UDxkau (http://bit.ly/UDxkau))

As noted in last week’s column about the rising recognition by authorities in Germany about the virtues of gold, the gold standard is receiving impressive new recognition internationally. The GOP plank calling for a commission to study “possible ways to set a fixed value for the dollar” — with an unmistakable nod to gold — is the most prominent element of the 2012 GOP platform still being heard to “reverberate around the world.” Meanwhile, it continues to gain impressive momentum in the United States.

CNN’s Kevin Voigt writes, in The China Post, “Currencies: Re-evaluating the ghost of gold:”

    “One platform of the recent U.S. Republican National Convention that, ultimately, could reverberate around the world is a plan to study a possible return of the U.S. to the gold standard. While it was perceived as a move to appease the party’s extreme right wing, economists like Mundell think the world needs a limited return to the gold standard.”

This is by no means an isolated blip on the economic radar screen of China watchers.  As Christopher Potter, president of Northern Border Capital Management, so astutely observed in a column entitled China’s Preparing for the End Game — Are We Paying Attention, published in The Lehrman Institute’s TheGoldStandardNow.org — which Potter advises (and this columnist professionally edits):

    China is … increasing its monetary gold reserves at an alarming rate.  Five years ago China surpassed the US in gold production and five years from now it will own more gold than the US Federal government.
    China is preparing for a world beyond the inconvertible paper dollar, a world in which the renminbi, buttressed by gold, becomes the dominant reserve currency.
    The Chinese government has recently removed all restrictions on personal ownership of gold; legalized domestic gold exchange traded funds; is currently purchasing 100% of domestic gold mine production; has imported over 750 tons of gold (27% of global output) in the last 12 months; stated publicly its intention to add 1,000 tons per year to its central bank gold reserves; and is buying major stakes in foreign gold mining companies.  The scale of this initiative is extraordinary.
    Commenting on the recently announced acquisition of African Barrick Gold Ltd. by state-owned China National, CEO Sun Zhaoxue stated, “As gold is a currency in nature, no matter if it’s for state economic security or for the acceleration of renminbi internationalization, increasing the gold reserve should be one of the key strategies of China.”
                           
800px DatongJiulongBi
800px DatongJiulongBi
                :icon_study:
www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2012/10/01/signs-of-the-gold-standard-emerging-in-china/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2012/10/01/signs-of-the-gold-standard-emerging-in-china/)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Australian Gold Exports to China Surge over 900%
Post by: g on October 20, 2012, 05:13:42 AM
10/19/2012
Australian gold exports to China surge over 900%, iron ore drop 5%
China buys the West's gold. China is the world's top gold producer and the number one gold buyer. China's on a mission. The West isn't. full article...           :icon_study:

www.mining.com/australian-gold-sales-to-china-surge-over-900-63201/ (http://www.mining.com/australian-gold-sales-to-china-surge-over-900-63201/)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: South Africa Gold Fields Workers 'End Strike'
Post by: g on October 20, 2012, 06:54:03 AM

BBC News Africa
19 October 2012 Last updated at 05:20 ET
South Africa Gold Fields workers 'end strike'

Nearly all the 15,000 South African gold miners who faced dismissal for going on an illegal strike have reported for duty, their company says.

Gold Fields said that only 1,500 miners did not return for work on Thursday and so have lost their jobs.

South Africa's mining sector - one of the world's biggest - has been hit by a wave of unrest recently, which has left almost 50 people dead.

Workers at several other gold mines remain on strike.

The unrest over pay has badly hit South Africa's economy, with the rand losing value and its credit rating downgraded.

In a bid to end the disputes, President Jacob Zuma this week called on workers to return to work and urged company executives to freeze their pay.

Equipment seized

Gold Fields says that some 11,000 miners reported for duty on Friday at its KDC West mine.

It says all the 2,800 workers at the Beatrix mine turned up for work on Thursday.

Anglo American Platinum (Amplats) - the world's biggest platinum producer - last week fired 12,000 striking workers.

On Tuesday, police arrested 40 striking workers who had seized equipment worth millions of dollars at Anglo American's Kumba Iron Ore mine in the Northern Cape province.

Mines belonging to AngloGold Ashanti have ceased production for almost a month, while workers at another Gold Fields mine - KDC East - have not yet returned to work but this relates to a local union dispute not wages.

South Africa is one of the most unequal societies in the world, while analysts say some of the unrest is being fuelled by disputes between rival unions.

Some miners say the official National Union of Mineworkers is too close to the governing African National Congress (ANC) and so is no longer standing up for their rights.

Some also link the disputes to December's ANC conference, at which Mr Zuma faces calls for him to be replaced.

Mr Zuma has set up a judicial commission of inquiry into the killings of 44 people at the Marikana mine, 34 of whom were shot by police.

The investigation will determine the roles played by the police, the management of the platinum mine, Lonmin, the unions and government.
More Africa stories

    M23 rebel soldiers patrol near Rutshuru, 17 October 2012UN to target DR Congo rebel group

    The UN Security Council says it intends to impose sanctions against leaders of the M23 rebel movement in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
    Somali militants 'arms seized'
    AU agrees to leave Somali stadium

BBC

BBC © 2012 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold Can Save Us From Disaster
Post by: g on October 21, 2012, 04:21:55 AM

A new gold standard is crucial. The disasters that the Federal Reserve and other central banks are inflicting on us with their funny-money policies are enormous and underappreciated. An unstable dollar is wreaking havoc on our capital markets, depriving us of money for productive enterprises and future enterprises while subsidizing government debt on a scale never before seen in U.S. history. The zero-interest-rate policy destroys capital by punishing savers and enabling the central bank to allocate where capital goes. By definition such central planning means subpar or negative returns. No one believes, given the finances of the U.S. government, that a ten-year Treasury bond should yield only 1.8%.

The promiscuous printing of money in the U.S., Europe and elsewhere is enabling governments to put off pro-growth structural reforms and giving them incentive to increase the burdens on the private sector. The poster child here, of course, is France, raising its maximum income tax rate to 75%. Not since the early 1930s have governments of major countries collectively acted so destructively. The only difference between then and today—and it is a gargantuan one—is that we haven’t destroyed the global trading and capital systems. But even they are facing increasing strains and will continue to do so unless policies are changed.     :icon_study:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2012/10/03/gold-can-save-us-from-disaster/2/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2012/10/03/gold-can-save-us-from-disaster/2/)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Fort Knox, an Impregnable Monument to Security Theater
Post by: g on October 21, 2012, 05:12:37 AM
The Great Con Job continues,   ;D

During the panic of 1792, the Bank of North America tried to stave off a run by having employees “carry its specie busily to and from the cellar in order to give a magnified notion of what it had,” historian Bray Hammond wrote. Bank managers “ostentatiously brought in deposits of gold and silver that had unostentatiously been carried out a little while before.”

The show of specie reassured jittery customers, saving the bank from failure. As a young clerk in Iowa during the panic of 1907, Hammond recalled employing exactly the same dodge: heaping impressively large sacks of low-value coin in plain view and ostentatiously counting it to give the impression of overflowing vaults.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt used a similar trick when he authorized the construction of the U.S. Bullion Depository at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

Roosevelt took the U.S. off the domestic gold standard in 1934. Although the nation remained on the standard in international exchange, the Gold Reserve Act made it illegal for private citizens to hold “monetary gold” -- that is, coins or bullion. Banks had to transfer to the U.S. government any title to gold reserves they held, in return for dollars. Individuals could still own gold jewelry and keep their gold dental fillings, but anyone owning monetary gold had to sell it to the government.
Psychic Compensation

In speeches explaining the change, Roosevelt paradoxically stressed the importance of gold reserves.“By making clear that we are establishing permanent metallic reserves in the possession and ownership of the federal government,” he told Congress in 1934, “we can organize a currency system which is both sound and adequate.” But the U.S. already had “metallic reserves” -- the act had actually eliminated that gold’s legal function.

Fort Knox
Fort Knox


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-16/fort-knox-an-impregnable-monument-to-security-theater.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-16/fort-knox-an-impregnable-monument-to-security-theater.html)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Fort Knox, an Impregnable Monument to Security Theater
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 06:29:34 AM
The Great Con Job continues,   ;D

During the panic of 1792, the Bank of North America tried to stave off a run by having employees “carry its specie busily to and from the cellar in order to give a magnified notion of what it had,” historian Bray Hammond wrote. Bank managers “ostentatiously brought in deposits of gold and silver that had unostentatiously been carried out a little while before.”

The show of specie reassured jittery customers, saving the bank from failure. As a young clerk in Iowa during the panic of 1907, Hammond recalled employing exactly the same dodge: heaping impressively large sacks of low-value coin in plain view and ostentatiously counting it to give the impression of overflowing vaults.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt used a similar trick when he authorized the construction of the U.S. Bullion Depository at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

So the argument here is that Gold is good as a monetary standard because Banks and Goobermints always lie about how much they actually have?  I don't get it.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 21, 2012, 07:30:46 AM
The Great Con Job continues,   ;D

During the panic of 1792, the Bank of North America tried to stave off a run by having employees “carry its specie busily to and from the cellar in order to give a magnified notion of what it had,” historian Bray Hammond wrote. Bank managers “ostentatiously brought in deposits of gold and silver that had unostentatiously been carried out a little while before.”

The show of specie reassured jittery customers, saving the bank from failure. As a young clerk in Iowa during the panic of 1907, Hammond recalled employing exactly the same dodge: heaping impressively large sacks of low-value coin in plain view and ostentatiously counting it to give the impression of overflowing vaults.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt used a similar trick when he authorized the construction of the U.S. Bullion Depository at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

So the argument here is that Gold is good as a monetary standard because Banks and Goobermints always lie about how much they actually have?  I don't get it.

RE
There lies and deceptions are not the point, the point is they pretend to have it to calm the waters when they become turbulent with lacks of confidence from their trickery, since the majority of the world's citizens view gold as real money.

It is Inherent in all men, History gave it to them in all it's great works of Art,Literature, and Sculpture, Religions and Ornaments.

It's a Gold Mine.

It's as Good as Gold

Golden Years

Gold Olympic Medal

Golden Wedding Anniversary

Golden Wedding Ring

Heart of Gold

Golden Chalice  To Hold the Blood of Jesus Christ

Gold Crown of all Kings

Gold, The Flesh of The Pharos

The Golden Rule

Pot of Gold at The End of a Rainbow

Ahab's Gold Coin Nailed to the Mast in Moby Dick

Pirate's Treasures of Chests of Gold

King Midas

The Fable of the Golden Goose

10 005
10 005

tutankhamun and the golden age0 1298548292
tutankhamun and the golden age0 1298548292

yhst 38427106709213 2104 14666098
yhst 38427106709213 2104 14666098

golden calf
golden calf






Title: Gold & Silver News: Why a Gold Standard Won't Happen
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 07:43:39 AM
From Martin Sibileau's Blog,  A View from the Trenches.  Hat Tip Zero Hedge.

RE

The mechanics of transitioning to the gold standard and why it won't happen! (http://sibileau.com/martin/2012/10/21/the-mechanics-of-transitioning-to-the-gold-standard-and-why-it-wont-happen/)
                Published on October 21st 2012
 

If you are interested in the mechanics of this fictional process, you are welcome to keep reading. Otherwise, please, accept our apologies. But if you ask us, learning how fiction works always helps to cope with reality


Please, click here to read this article in pdf format: October 21 2012 (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/October-21-2012.pdf)


Today we retake the discussion left two weeks ago, on a return to the gold standard. We had divided the discussion in two parts: The first part (here (http://sibileau.com/martin/2012/10/09/why-a-gold-standard-alone-is-not-enough/)) was based on an historical perspective. Today, we will deal with the technical one.


As a summary of the first part, we left with two important conclusions: a) A gold standard will fail if the banking system is allowed to survive with a reserve requirement below 100%, and b) Establishing a gold standard does not require that gold be confiscated. The question before us today is: How do we transition from this:


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-1-572x422.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-1.jpg)


To this:


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-2-572x378.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-2.jpg)


Note that the in the second chart, there is no central bank. And note that in none of the charts, we make reference to the shadow banking structure that exists and is well alive today. While including it makes matters more complicated, excluding it does not affect the analysis at all. We will write why this is so, further below.


In the first chart, we see a stylized version of the consolidated balance sheets of a central bank, commercial banks and their relation to the money stock. The reserve ratio is the ratio of demand deposits to reserves. If this ratio was 100%, no loans would be made from demand deposits. In this case, we would have a system with no aggregate leverage. Leverage, at the firm or individual level would still be possible. However, for someone to raise debt, there would have to be someone else saving no less than the same amount.


From the first chart too, it is clear that it is not only the private sector that has leverage. The leverage of the public sector is very significant, since all the liabilities of the central bank (reserves and currency) are fully backed by sovereign debt (US Treasuries). The first chart is reproduced from Laura Davidson’s “The Causes of Price Inflation and Deflation (http://libertarianpapers.org/articles/2011/lp-3-13.pdf)”, 2011.


In what follows, we will examine the adjustment process necessary to shift from a system with fiat money and a reserve ratio below 1 (reserve requirement under 100%). Let’s begin clarifying that this proposed delevering process is an ideal situation, applicable if one had the luxury of planning the shift. There is not always time to do so and, if we ever had any, we’re running out of it pretty fast.


The adjustment process below could only be done very gradually, by adjusting the reserve requirement and gold holdings by the central bank a few bps every year (say 200bps). The ultra-necessary condition here is that the nation undergoing this process be able to generate an equivalent fiscal surplus, in percentage terms. For instance, the process could demand to cover 2% per year of the gap in the reserve ratio to reach 1 (50 years long!!!). This means that if the reserve ratio is 10%, the gap is 90% and narrowing it over 50 years would require to increase reserves by 1.8% every year (90%/50).


Because the delevering process should be accompanied by a pari passu reduction in the fiscal deficit and sovereign debt, that 2% annual adjustment, in the US  this would require a surplus of $324BN every year, over 50 years ($16.2 trillion in national debt x 2%). In 2012 terms, spending would have to be cut by $1.52 trillion ($324 billion + $1.2 trillion annual deficit), if the numbers we have are correct. We suspect they are not: The situation is even worse. But, the bottom line is that, once you see these numbers, you realize that going back to a world of no leverage is politically impossible. Even though it is technically feasible, just like the European Monetary Union was planned and built over decades, it is still politically impossible.


(If you are still interested in the mechanics of this fictional process, you are welcome to keep reading. Otherwise, please, accept our apologies for the time we took from you. But if you ask us, learning how fiction works, in the end, always helps to cope with reality)


Now, if the delevering cannot be planned, and if the amounts involved are so colossal, you can have a very good picture of how painful it will be when liquidation eventually happens and how overvalued the US dollar is today. Below, we present you the aggregate, sectorial, balance sheets represented in the first chart:


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-3-572x74.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-3.jpg)


It is completely out of the question that to delever the public sector, the private sector must generate equal savings, and they would have to come from exports. This would require political stability, capitalism, free trade and privatization of public services, among other things.  In this rare context, this is what the accounting side of the story would look like:


Deleverage of the public sector


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-41-572x89.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-41.jpg)


Above, we show one of the two delevering processes required to transition to a commodity-based standard, with a 100% reserve requirement: That of the public sector.


In step 1 we see the generation of savings that is needed to pay off the sovereign debt. Assets produced by the private sector are sold to the rest of the world in exchange of foreign currency. In step 2, the private sector sells the foreign exchange to the central bank, for currency. In step 3, the private sector uses that currency to cancel taxes due to the public sector and to purchase government-owned assets, via privatizations. In step 4, the government applies the currency received from the private sector to repay debt (i.e. Treasuries). In this last transaction, the currency that was initially issued against foreign exchange is withdrawn by the central bank, leaving the monetary base unchanged, but backed by foreign exchange. This is, of course, preferable to allowing the government to cancel its debt with the central bank (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-18/guest-post-should-central-banks-cancel-government-debt). Initially, it is more painful, but the result is more desirable…


Deleverage of the private sector


Simultaneously with the delevering of the public sector, the leverage ex-nihilo in the private sector has to be eliminated, to slowly reduce the risk of further systemic liquidity runs. To reach a reserve ratio of 1, the loans from demand deposits must be cancelled. Just like the deleverage of the public sector, this would have to be done over 50 years (yes, yes, we know…but note that the European Monetary Union took about thirty years and it was way more complex than this simple rule of increasing reserves by 2% every January 1st ). The chart below shows how it would be accounted for:


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-5-572x78.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-5.jpg)


Once again, the source of savings for this delevering process will stem from exports. In step 1, we show the assets produced by the private sector, which are sold to the rest of the world in exchange of foreign currency. In step 2, the private sector sells the foreign exchange to the central bank, for currency. In step 3, the private sector uses the currency to repay the loans originated from demand deposits (2% of total, every year). In step 4, the banks apply that currency to reserves at the central bank. The result is an increase in the level of reserves and, pari passu, of the monetary base. This marginal change is entirely backed by foreign exchange.


Commoditization of the monetary base


Simultaneous with the delevering of the public and private sectors, the central bank should every year, convert 2% of the foreign exchange holdings into gold. This transaction is represented below:


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-6-572x56.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-6.jpg)


The immediate result is a devaluation of the foreign exchange vs. gold. As the local currency is incrementally backed by gold, it appreciates vs. the foreign exchange held by the central bank, albeit at a lower pace.


This appreciation would generate a virtuous cycle, because based on the expectations of a 2% annual commoditization of the local currency, foreign savings would fund local investments and real interest rates would slowly decrease to a Wicksellian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Wicksell), natural level. This is counterintuitive to Keynesians. Keynesians would maintain that this steady appreciation of the currency would damage the local competitiveness and exports. However, IF THE PUBLIC SECTOR HONOURS ITS DELEVERING GOAL, the rest of the world will export capital to the country, lowering real rates and financing growth (i.e. productivity gains). If the public sector does not honour its delivering targets, the whole exercise will have been utterly useless.


Aggregated balance sheets at the end


Once the two delevering processes and the commoditization of the monetary base are finalized, in the new system loans will only be made from time deposits (i.e. real savings) and demand deposits will be fully backed by reserves. The public sector will have no debt and the non-financial private sector will have realized capital gains from the privatized assets and productivity increases.


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-71-572x67.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-71.jpg)


Restructuring of the financial system:


Only at this stage one could restructure the financial system. Banks could spin-off themselves into gold-backed note-issuing banks and investment banks. As the central bank is unwound, the note banks will need to join a clearinghouse to minimize counterpart risk, with all notes denominated in gold (i.e. interchangeable). The market will sort out which ones are the most liquid, based on the liquidity services provided by the each bank, rather than repayment risk. Further below, we show the possible revenue model for such banks.


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-8-572x210.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-8.jpg)


Some would argue that this revenue model is not viable and that these banks would not be profitable. We disagree, although we can only speculate here. For the City of Amsterdam, the Bank of Amsterdam of the 17th century was profitable and in general, senioriage, has been a good business. Even more so under a 100% reserve ratio, because it is stable and grows in volume with time. Cash management and fx services would naturally be ancillary businesses for these institutions. The resulting investment banks would be simple brokers between those interested in saving in credit products and those raising funds via debt. The net interest income would be their main revenue driver.


Revenue sources of a note bank


(http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-9-572x427.jpg) (http://sibileau.com/martin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct-21-2012-9.jpg)


As we mentioned in the beginning, we have not considered the role of shadow banking in our discussion. Why not? Simply because the whole structure, since it is levered, also rests upon the existence of a central bank as lender of last resort. Otherwise, these players would be swallowed either by the investment banks that we just described or by the public debt market.


If there wasn’t a central bank (i.e. lender of last resort), re-hypothecation would not be tolerated and economies of scale would dictate that only the investment banks end up capturing savings, along with the private and public equity and debt markets. But this, of course, is pure speculation and at this time, is nothing else than an intellectual exercise of dubious utility. Hence, we leave the matter aside…


Ron Paul’s Proposal


What we just described is not the only transition possible. Since 2010, Ron Paul has been publicly suggesting that a transition to gold-backed money be simply enabled by allowing gold to be used as money (i.e. capital gains not taxed). In other words, Ron Paul suggested what the US Constitution clearly dictates: …No State shall (…) coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts…” (Section 10 – Powers prohibited of States).


We commented about this idea in our “Open Letter to Ron Paul (http://sibileau.com/martin/2010/12/21/open-letter-to-ron-paul-and-end-of-2010-comments/)” (Dec/10).  We still think that this proposal would unnecessarily lead to hyperinflation and the discredit of the libertarian movement, without solving anything and giving others the excuse to return to the status quo.


Revolutions usually start in the least likely of all places


If the transitions we described today or the one proposed by Ron Paul are not politically possible, are there any chances that we may ever see a system without aggregate leverage? Such a system would have to challenge the financial establishment of the currency zone where it wants to blossom. Perhaps then, the best environment for its development is a place where any potential opposition is weak: A nation without capital markets or an established banking system. There are many examples of such places today: Argentina,Bolivia,Paraguay, in South America; a multitude more in Northern Africa and the Middle East.


Does this make sense? We think it does. There are parallels in history that won’t disappoint you: Protestantism would have never flown in Rome or Spain. Those who opposed the status quo were expeditiously eliminated. However, when Protestantism surged in the Alps, far from the center of power, it was underestimated and allowed to flourish. By the time the status quo sought to quench it, it was too late. The same occurred with the liberal revolutions of the 18th century. When the Americans declared their rebellion, they were underestimated. They were far from the centres of power. When the French declared theirs, they were suppressed. When communism began in Russia  it was unchallenged. When it tried to grow in Britain or the United States, it was immediately repelled. Revolutions then, apparently survive when they start in the backyard, rather than the front yard.


Martin Sibileau
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 07:47:07 AM

There lies and deceptions are not the point, the point is they pretend to have it to calm the waters when they become turbulent with lacks of confidence from their trickery, since the majority of the world's citizens view gold as real money.

See Martin Sibileau above.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 21, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
@Reply Martin Sibelau's blog.

Unfortunately I do not have the looney tune gene and only can deal with the sane and rational.

The world is on the Gold Standard Now and has never gone off it. The wise of the world who understand the fraud of fiat convert it readily to Gold and silver to preserve their labor and wealth, the fools engage in constant discussion and exhortations of how the paper replaced the Gold. It is as simple and tragic as that.

Articles about going back on the Gold Standard are, in truth,  articles asking if it is time to admit that we were collectively all ass holes who have been conned and it is now time to accept the obvious, or continue to be buffoons in a fantasy world of make believe money. 
                                     
1799 sm stars 5 P62
1799 sm stars 5 P62

 
   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 08:33:27 AM
Articles about going back on the Gold Standard are, in truth,  articles asking if it is time to admit that we were collectively all ass holes who have been conned and it is now time to accept the obvious, or continue to be buffoons in a fantasy world of make believe money. 

The world of "Make Believe Money" is the one that has existed since people first started counting numbers.  It is the "System of the World" in Neal Stephenson's phraseology.  It assigns Numerical Values to ALL things, Gold included.  Thing is, relative values change, and change radically when you have resource scarcity.  We haven't had such a period of resource scarcity in a very long time, really on an aggregate level not since the beginnings of Ag.  Now we got one again.  Just remember the words written in the BIBLE, the REVEALED WORD OF GOD:

Quote from: Revelation 18
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
 
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
 
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

(http://christianliberal.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/golden-calf.jpg)
Even if you don't subscribe to the belief that this describes what really went down in Babylon as I do and merely is a prediction of a Future Event, it still does describe a time when Gold goes WORTHLESS, right along with the Souls of Men.  Do you DENY the Word of God written in the Holy Bible?  Will you DENY GOD to worship the Golden Calf?

RE

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: JoeP on October 21, 2012, 09:14:35 AM
Just remember the words written in the BIBLE, the REVEALED WORD OF GOD:

 RE quoting The Holy Bible...Shit's getting real fo shizzle.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 21, 2012, 09:21:50 AM
Articles about going back on the Gold Standard are, in truth,  articles asking if it is time to admit that we were collectively all ass holes who have been conned and it is now time to accept the obvious, or continue to be buffoons in a fantasy world of make believe money. 

The world of "Make Believe Money" is the one that has existed since people first started counting numbers.  It is the "System of the World" in Neal Stephenson's phraseology.  It assigns Numerical Values to ALL things, Gold included.  Thing is, relative values change, and change radically when you have resource scarcity.  We haven't had such a period of resource scarcity in a very long time, really on an aggregate level not since the beginnings of Ag.  Now we got one again.  Just remember the words written in the BIBLE, the REVEALED WORD OF GOD:

Quote from: Revelation 18
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
 
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
 
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

(http://christianliberal.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/golden-calf.jpg)
Even if you don't subscribe to the belief that this describes what really went down in Babylon as I do and merely is a prediction of a Future Event, it still does describe a time when Gold goes WORTHLESS, right along with the Souls of Men.  Do you DENY the Word of God written in the Holy Bible?  Will you DENY GOD to worship the Golden Calf?

RE

Your attempt at mimicking Ashvin is as ludicrous as your recent reincarnation of Pol Pot as a possible saint, or the discovering of America actually being the start of the first biological war; that was a real doozey and was all that was required for me to realize you also were a possessor of the Looney Tune gene

My argument is about Gold, the money of history, compared to bankster devised and created fiat in all it's evil forms; nothing more, nothing less. Stay on topic and stop the muddying of the waters.

I do not worship the golden calf and I am cognizant of the fact there will come a time when nothing will have any value; until then I will continue to argue for sound honest money requiring labor to produce, rather than bankster created toilet paper and its evil credit derivatives.

It is a beautiful Indian Summer day in Boston and I am going out with a good friend of mine this afternoon to enjoy the final beauty of Fall and all it's splendor. I guess one my call it a "Thoreau Moment." Packed up some Lobster rolls a few bottles of St Julien and a pint of single malt scotch in case it gets a bit nippy.  Wish Karpatok was around, would like to have invited her for a ride in my new buggy.    Chow

GO & Oddjob
GO & Oddjob

 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 09:45:11 AM
Your attempt at mimicking Ashvin is as ludicrous as your recent reincarnation of Pol Pot as a possible saint, or the discovering of America actually being the start of the first biological war; that was a real doozey and was all that was required for me to realize you also were a possessor of the Looney Tune gene.

Personally, I though I did a real good Watson Impersonation there.  :icon_mrgreen:

Far as Reinventing Pol Pot, I didn't do that, Israel Shamir did it.

Far as the Dead Injuns go, do you DENY they died of the Smallpox delivered unto them by the Eurotrash?

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 21, 2012, 01:33:13 PM
Fiat currencies certainly have their weaknesses as it encourages governments and central banks to issue excess amounts of money/credit .This overleveraging can lead to catastrophic results to the national currency if no measures are taken to limit this over expenditure. In fact there have been many cases of fiat currencies reaching an end-point of hyperinflation. However just because fiat does encourage overleveraging it does not mean a gold standard currency is immune to this final fate either.

There have been cases of currency devaluation even when following the gold standard and it should be noted that the US suffered numerous financial crises in the 19th century when it did follow the gold standard. I have heard that the term depression was a politically correct way of expressing financial panic where there were numerous crises most notably the 1873-1879 long depression. Indeed this depression was known as the great depression until this event was supplanted by the great depression of the 1930s. All of which occurred during an era when all the major currencies of the world followed the gold standard.

The causes of this long depression are, like the great depression of the 1930s, still debated among economists but the general problems would appear to share striking similarities. Like the 1930s depression the long depression came at a time shortly after a major war. In the case of the long depression this was the American civil war while the great depression was preceded by World War 1. Such wars meant that the central governments issued an excessive amount of credit to fund the war effort and this excessive spending came despite the fact the gold standard places heavy penalties on countries that do not practice fiscal restraint. This scenario of excessive credit creation coming through war times should be noted for it is one of the few instances where governments are prepared to risk mortally damaging their currency. This behaviour of excessive spending under this circumstance can apply to whatever monetary system is applied be it gold or fiat based currency system.

To say the long-depression was caused by excessive war spending would not tell the whole story, not to mention it would neglect to raise another commonality between the two eras. That is, the immediate period after the civil war was a boom period for the US economy (which is similar to the roaring 1920s). This boom occurred because the 1860s was a period where the government and major private companies invested heavily in rail-roads. Much of those railroads were financed by loans, bonds and subsidies which in many cases where backed by the US government. These cheap loans created overinvestment in the industry and eventually lead to a bubble forming (or overcapacity). As it became clear many of these rail companies could never pay back their loans this caused many banks to fail which eventually culminated with the failure of the major banks of Jay Cooke and Henry Clews which brought the financial sector to its knees. The resulting recession would last 6 years and growth was below normal until after the 1890s. Again this period of recession and sluggish growth shares a similar similarity to the great depression.

So why bring up the point of the long depression and great depression? I think the point to take from all these events is that despite being on the gold standard (in the case of the 1870s the gold and silver standard) governments and corporations found ways of overleveraging the monetary system. When those loans could not be paid back it resulted in large scale defaults which almost caused the destruction of the financial system. Now it can be argued that since a fiat currency encourages more spending (as currency is no longer bound by reserves of gold) then the magnitude of the problem will be that much greater so the level of defaults required to bring the system into balance would be greater but then the argument becomes one of a matter of degree.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: pansceptic on October 21, 2012, 01:57:33 PM
Mr Oxen is correct that at some point, for a while, gold may be almost worthless - during a period when everyone is residing at the dead bottom of Maslow's Pyramid.  However, as soon as a warlord or feudal baron or whoever arises, gold will be desired again.  As long as men want signifiers of status and gifts to cement alliances or seduce women, men will want gold.

I often ask a riddle of people at work or met at social events:  Suppose I get in my Time Machine and travel to Ancient Egypt.  I don't want to stand out so much, so I will want to buy some local clothes.  And maybe get some lunch before I head back to the Time Machine.  What should I bring to buy some clothes and lunch?  Or if I stop in Ancient Rome?  Or Shakespeare's London?  Or Inca Peru?  The smart ones figure it out pretty quickly.

Why has humanity settled on gold as a store of value across the centuries and across cultures that were not even aware of one another? 
The rational reasons:
1) Uniform character.  Unlike the bible's "fine linen...and silk...and precious wood" gold is gold, the world over.
2) Pretty much infinitely divisible without destroying its uniform character.
3) Essentially indestructable.  You can bury it without it rusting or corroding.  If your house burns down, you will find your gold pretty much where you left it, as a shiny puddle instead of a shiny coin.
4) Aboveground stock of gold is much larger than annual production; this means that there are no sudden changes in value due to new supplies appearing.
5) Not voluminous, and so easy to transport a significant amount of value.

The cultural reason:
GO mentioned this: "good as gold", "golden opportunity", etc.

The emotional reasons:
1) A gold coin, due to its high density, just feels like something of substance.  Usually when I put a gold coin in a persn's hand, the first thing they comment on is not that it is artistic or shiny, but that it seems heavy for its size.
2) It seems uncorruptable: it doesn't discolor or corrode when worn on salty skin; people call gold a "noble metal".

I'm a pragmatic boy; I think it would be foolish to ignore thousands of years of cross-cultural desire for gold as portable value.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: pansceptic on October 21, 2012, 02:14:19 PM
monsta666, you are right that "gold's honest discipline" alone will not stop boom-and-bust cycles.  The other half of the reform would be the elimination of Fractional Reserve Banking.  FRB permits the growth of credit to far outstrip the growth of genuine production, as well as encouraging malinvestment.

Your analysis of cause of the First Great Depression (1870s) is correct; malinvestment in overcapacity, in that case railroads.  The second Great Depression was similarly caused by overcapacity, in that New Hi-Tech Radio Broadcast System and the Automobile Assembly Line.  The second Great Depression was resolved largely by using that overcapacity to build stuff that would simply get blown up, requiring the production of more stuff.

Some people on this blog and others have suggested that this solution will be applied to the current global productive overcapacity and population overshoot.  Resource Wars would indeed "solve" several problems simultaneously, while provding some juicy "investment" reward opportunities for cronies.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 21, 2012, 02:25:46 PM
Last post contained 666 words :)

To continue with part 2:

The main issue I see with the gold standard - despite assertions to the contrary - is it is not immune to reckless spending. Reckless spending can come through poor lending practices and these practices have a particular tendency of loosening during WAR TIMES and BOOM TIMES. In the case of war the risk of financial collapse is acceptable to fight the war while in the case of boom times the perception of risk becomes distorted so market participants take out excessive loans thinking the risk of failure is lower than reality. This human behaviour must be accounted for when suggestions of moving to a gold standard system are ushered.

If one wants to assure there is no risk of financial mismanagement then one needs to get at the root of the problem and that is one of leverage. Every major currency in existence today follows a debt based fiat currency system with many of the commercial banks operating with a fractional reserve system. This system of fractional reserve banking is not well understood by most members of the public but most of the loans/money generated through the system comes about through here. This point is important as it is the leveraging that ultimately causes the instability in the monetary system NOT whether the currency is backed by gold or promises (as is the case in fiat).

To gain a good idea how a fractional reserve works it is best to find out how the system started in the first place. That way we can learn it simply and not be baffled and confused with all the mumbo jumbo that some smarty pants will put in front of us to confuse us. All these terms and convoluted descriptions are just smoke and mirrors to make the public feel intimidated and not ask further questions about the fraud being committed right in front of their eyes. Notice how no one actually teaches how monetary systems actually operate in school? Anyways, I digress and let us focus on the topic at hand.
The fractional reserve system originally came about when early bankers would help store pieces of gold bullion for various customers. To make transfers more convenient the early banks would issue notes which allowed the customer to redeem their gold. This meant people did not have to travel back and forth with gold bars which were a major drag (literally) not to mention quite dangerous. After sometime however the banks realised that customers would only trade these notes instead of exchanging gold directly. In fact those notes became a form of ad-hoc currency and it became apparent that the more notes that were issued the more money would be generated which meant more profit to the banks. So the banks began the path to the dark side by issuing more notes than they had gold. It was the beginning of the fractional reserve banking.

The banks had already found that since most people did not take out from their deposits creating excessive notes posed no real risk of them being found out or going bankrupt. However this practice did lead to the issuing of more money which while fraudulent benefited the upper class very well as it allowed them greater means to spend and invest money in various major projects. These extra loans also had the effect of extracting more wealth from its subjects via interest payments from the extra loans generated from this operation. As a result even though this form of fraud became known to the government it was not outlawed. Instead laws were made to limit the amount of risk such practices posed to the overall system. From this point onward the financial system developed extra complexity as the article RE posted earlier clear demonstrates but on a fundamental level they all operate on a similar concept. To many this is really a legalised system of fraud and one wonders how the general population would behave if it learnt the truth about how money works.

In any case if one wishes for stability one needs to confront the fractional reserve system. If a person does wish for stability then the reserves must equal 100% of the currency available. Any leverage will create some instability and the more leveraged it becomes the greater the resulting instability. It should be noted however this system - despite its obvious flaws and shortcomings - has one big advantage. This way of generating excess cash has a great effect in delivering growth for the general economy which was a great BOON to an ever expanding industrial economy. In fact if one looks at the term capitalism the main objective of this system is to acquire capital. This can be through actual assets and cash and since fractional reserve banking delivers on this objective one can see why it is so prevalent in modern societies. However as noted by many others this growth cannot go on indefinitely and in a contracting economy excessive credit creation can quickly become a bane to society. In fact one can easily say a fractional reserve system would not be fit for purpose for an economy that is continually contracting. In fact it would be catastrophic.

Still, one should not forget to remove this system if one wants future stability. What needs to be understood however is if one wishes for complete stability with full fractional reserve banking then one must sacrifice growth. Now, with this in mind it can naturally lead to another question: can man curb his desires of greed and power to prevent such a system forming on a future date?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 21, 2012, 04:08:24 PM
Mr Oxen is correct that at some point, for a while, gold may be almost worthless - during a period when everyone is residing at the dead bottom of Maslow's Pyramid.  However, as soon as a warlord or feudal baron or whoever arises, gold will be desired again.  As long as men want signifiers of status and gifts to cement alliances or seduce women, men will want gold.

I think the question that does need to be asked is how long will you need before some warlord takes control and gold regains its value? Will this period be 5 years, 10 years or even a few decades? In the meantime how secure will all that gold be in chaotic times when it is likely you will need to move on a fairly regular basis? Walking with gold bars on the street is dangerous at the best of times just imagine how dangerous it would be with hoards of zombies walking around. The same can be said if you store the gold in your doomstead of even if you have it hidden away.

These long lead times plus the danger of confiscation either by governments, mobs or warlords means that while gold or other precious metals may indeed come handy they cannot be seen as ultimate solutions and any advantage conferred by them could be easily squandered or taken away. The other argument often made is that skills, if useful enough, will be worth their weight in gold and unlike gold skills cannot be so easily stolen.

Some people on this blog and others have suggested that this solution will be applied to the current global productive overcapacity and population overshoot.  Resource Wars would indeed "solve" several problems simultaneously, while providing some juicy "investment" reward opportunities for cronies.

I do agree that some overcapacity issues can be "solved" through using infrastructure for war development and having the subsequent infrastructure blown to pieces. These solutions will not get at the heart of the problem however and that is the reserve system. Until that system is removed overspending in some shape or form will occur in perpetually.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 21, 2012, 05:04:05 PM
Actually, it was my suggestion via Revelation 18 that Gold will go essentially worthless at some point, not GO's. GO would NEVER suggest such a thing. SACRILEDGE!  LOL.

Fractional Banking and Leverage are systemic and necessary parts of the Industrial paradigm.  As Steve from Virginia often hammers down on, Industry never pays for itself, it is always financed on debt.  Through the shield of the corporation, Illuminati borrow their way into huge fortunes, sieving off personal wealth and then leaving behind the bad debts for the Public to pay off on.  Somehow, since the Railroads started going Bust in the 1800s though to the Car companies going bust and the Airlines going bust regularly, J6P doesn't get how this works and how the Illuminati got rich to begin with and stay rich, despite the fact all the Industries they create go BK.

Anyhow, for all the $Trillions$ that Helicopter Ben has thusfar created, its a drop in the bucket compared to the $Quadrillion$ or more created by Private Banksters as a means to finance up the creation of the "modern" world, for so long as there was enough REAL capital to run it, that being Oil of course. You can't Print Oil, so just about all the Collateral banks use to back the Money they create is going worthless and the House of Cards is a-tumbling down.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 21, 2012, 05:43:18 PM
RE
You missed the Bible verse "In one hour your gold has all rusted and moths eaten your money" , stock market crash? long past? Future? tripping out author?

GO I had wondered if the Golden Oxen logo was meant to signify the Golden Calf on steroids or Gold in a Bull Market or both? worthless eventually, well, take the seige of Sarajevo, money was literally good for toilet paper only, essentials such as toilet paper were what people wanted. But as pansceptic pointed out that changes sooner or later.
Poll Pot; Different to Sarajevo altogether. Asians in those times in those places got out litle scales and bought/sold with gold. Where did the poor people get it? They always keep it if they can. When gaudy immigrant asian and indian women from peasant villages immigrate and spend their min wage pay at zamels and Shiels they dont think its just fashion they also think its savings, its in their blood.

Monsta
Its chicken and egg conundrum of war and depression. American Civil war 1860's followed by 1890 crash, Boer war in 1900, 1930's depression in between the war to end all wars and the next one when hitler didnt get the memo.

This one, well where do you start, Im not up to writing as much as you have  and everyone already knows all the same as i woiuld have to say so i will leave it.

On fractional Reserve, RUDE surprise it was for UB when he learned the bank  never had the money it charges him usurious interest to borrow. Well Hell, why cant I just make it up and lend it to myself!?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 22, 2012, 04:10:47 AM
Quote pansceptic  "I'm a pragmatic boy; I think it would be foolish to ignore thousands of years of cross-cultural desire for gold as portable value."

Bulls Eye Sir, It is all about History and the people who refuse to learn from it, isn't it?

My experience from arguing the pro Gold view few for decades is that it's detractors view history as starting on the day of THEIR birth and ENDING on or about the time of their demise. The folks with my view go back a few thousand years before the birth of Christ when they view history and think it will continue long after they are gone.

RE is a perfect example of this phenomenen, a gold detractor who often refers to it as tungsten to vent his dislike of the noble metal.  His view is that the greatest and only view of history worth living through was the time of his birth until the day of his demise, the great age of cheap oil as he calls it. He also expects human civilization to end right around the time of his demise.

Like you pansceptic I prefer the latter view of history, the thousands of years perspective.

Ancient Gold coin used in Pompeii
Ancient Gold coin used in Pompeii
.

Constans II 002
Constans II 002

 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 02:08:01 PM
Nonsense, Strawmen and Lies off your keyboard GO


RE is a perfect example of this phenomenen, a gold detractor who often refers to it as tungsten to vent his dislike of the noble metal.  His view is that the greatest and only view of history worth living through was the time of his birth until the day of his demise, the great age of cheap oil as he calls it. He also expects human civilization to end right around the time of his demise.

First off, I write more history on these pages than anyone here.  I refer you to my Great Library Article, Large Public Works Articles, Articles about Da Fed, Railroads...shall I go on?  To be able to write about it, I had to first read about it so clearly I know more about what happenned before I was born than you know about it, since you don't seem to be able to write anything but the same old tired cliches and coda with pics of Gold Coins.

I ALSO don't expect history to end when I die, I just expect it is coming about the same time the Oil Age comes to a close.  I just happenned to be born around the right time for that to occur.  Might not hit it square on, but pretty close.

Finally, I have NEVER referred to Gold as Tungsten, I merely point out that because it has the same density, if a gold bar or coin is cored with tungsten you can't tell unless you drill it.  Probably 20% of your coin collection are Tungsten Cored Counterfeits.

Anyhow, I don't mind debating Gold issues with you, and in fact Monsta has a Feature Article in the pipeline here on the topic.  I will add more to it after publication.  Meanwhile, try not to LIE and misrepresent what I write in your rebuttals.  Thanks.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 22, 2012, 02:54:06 PM


Quote
Finally, I have NEVER referred to Gold as Tungsten, I merely point out that because it has the same density, if a gold bar or coin is cored with tungsten you can't tell unless you drill it.  Probably 20% of your coin collection are Tungsten Cored Counterfeits.

Anyhow, I don't mind debating Gold issues with you, and in fact Monsta has a Feature Article in the pipeline here on the topic.  I will add more to it after publication.  Meanwhile, try not to LIE and misrepresent what I write in your rebuttals.  Thanks.

RE
[/quote]


1
Market Flambe / Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins: Restore Gold Standard For Price Stability and Jobs
« by RE on June 02, 2012, 02:09:29 PM »

......  the Saudis we would have emptied Fort Knox of Tungsten probably by 1980. Our economy would have crashed  ......
2
Market Flambe / Re: Make a list, check it twice. Introducing My Twin Brother to the Diner
« by Golden Oxen on May 22, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »

......  of course that he would have just been Nuking Tungsten. Third, Goldfinger had a Japanese Butler who  ......

                             
7
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 03:14:34 PM


Quote
Finally, I have NEVER referred to Gold as Tungsten, I merely point out that because it has the same density, if a gold bar or coin is cored with tungsten you can't tell unless you drill it.  Probably 20% of your coin collection are Tungsten Cored Counterfeits.

Anyhow, I don't mind debating Gold issues with you, and in fact Monsta has a Feature Article in the pipeline here on the topic.  I will add more to it after publication.  Meanwhile, try not to LIE and misrepresent what I write in your rebuttals.  Thanks.

1
Market Flambe / Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins: Restore Gold Standard For Price Stability and Jobs
« by RE on June 02, 2012, 02:09:29 PM »

......  the Saudis we would have emptied Fort Knox of Tungsten probably by 1980. Our economy would have crashed  ......
2
Market Flambe / Re: Make a list, check it twice. Introducing My Twin Brother to the Diner
« by Golden Oxen on May 22, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »

......  of course that he would have just been Nuking Tungsten. Third, Goldfinger had a Japanese Butler who  ......                 

Everybody knows the Gold in Fort Knox was replaced by Tungsten when Nixon closed the Gold Window in 1971.  Even Tyler Durden says so. :P

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 22, 2012, 03:19:39 PM

Quote
RE "To be able to write about it, I had to first read about it so clearly I know more about what happenned before I was born than you know about it, since you don't seem to be able to write anything but the same old tired cliches and coda with pics of Gold Coins."

             
9281

             
Joseph Wiseman as Dr No i 001
Joseph Wiseman as Dr No i 001

             
Google
Google

             
121022 cartoon 052 a16897 p465
121022 cartoon 052 a16897 p465

             
e5bc602df7de43efa2b76e6574b9b6e1
e5bc602df7de43efa2b76e6574b9b6e1

             
transbay tower oct2012
transbay tower oct2012

             
angelus
angelus

             
China 1947 Dr SYS Shanghai Dah Tung print $20 000 yellow green red dramatic per shift gem Chan 1039
China 1947 Dr SYS Shanghai Dah Tung print $20 000 yellow green red dramatic per shift gem Chan 1039

             
Gandhi
Gandhi

                       
imagesCAEFF6MA
imagesCAEFF6MA

             
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: reanteben on October 22, 2012, 03:31:37 PM


Quote
Finally, I have NEVER referred to Gold as Tungsten, I merely point out that because it has the same density, if a gold bar or coin is cored with tungsten you can't tell unless you drill it.  Probably 20% of your coin collection are Tungsten Cored Counterfeits.

Anyhow, I don't mind debating Gold issues with you, and in fact Monsta has a Feature Article in the pipeline here on the topic.  I will add more to it after publication.  Meanwhile, try not to LIE and misrepresent what I write in your rebuttals.  Thanks.

1
Market Flambe / Re: Big Slide v2.0 Begins: Restore Gold Standard For Price Stability and Jobs
« by RE on June 02, 2012, 02:09:29 PM »

......  the Saudis we would have emptied Fort Knox of Tungsten probably by 1980. Our economy would have crashed  ......
2
Market Flambe / Re: Make a list, check it twice. Introducing My Twin Brother to the Diner
« by Golden Oxen on May 22, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »

......  of course that he would have just been Nuking Tungsten. Third, Goldfinger had a Japanese Butler who  ......                 

Everybody knows the Gold in Fort Knox was replaced by Tungsten when Nixon closed the Gold Window in 1971.  Even Tyler Durden says so. :P

RE

yeah, come on, ox - noble metal noble obligations. fort knox was an insult.  :P
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 22, 2012, 04:09:16 PM
Out of curiosity I looked up how much gold is held in reserve and it would seem the amount of gold ever mined is roughly about 165,000 tons and assuming prices of $1,900 an ounce or $62.1 million a ton then that would mean the value of all gold ever mined would amount to $10.1 trillion. However what is more useful is the amount of gold held in reserve by countries. The total gold reserves held at the state level is 34.913.7 tons and assuming the prices listed above then that would give a value $2.168 trillion. A high value indeed but considering the world GDP is valued at somewhere around $70 trillion in nominal terms it makes you wonder how feasible a transition to gold standard would be. And this is before we even consider all the debt behind all those assets that gold would have to cover. If we included all that debt we could be going into the quadrillion dollar territory.

Still, even if the gold standard cannot be restored in time gold will retain some value. Question is how long must we wait before people recognise the true value of gold?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 04:10:34 PM
(http://www.viewzone2.com/fakegold.top.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 22, 2012, 05:44:22 PM
Out of curiosity I looked up how much gold is held in reserve and it would seem the amount of gold ever mined is roughly about 165,000 tons and assuming prices of $1,900 an ounce or $62.1 million a ton then that would mean the value of all gold ever mined would amount to $10.1 trillion. However what is more useful is the amount of gold held in reserve by countries. The total gold reserves held at the state level is 34.913.7 tons and assuming the prices listed above then that would give a value $2.168 trillion. A high value indeed but considering the world GDP is valued at somewhere around $70 trillion in nominal terms it makes you wonder how feasible a transition to gold standard would be. And this is before we even consider all the debt behind all those assets that gold would have to cover. If we included all that debt we could be going into the quadrillion dollar territory.

Still, even if the gold standard cannot be restored in time gold will retain some value. Question is how long must we wait before people recognise the true value of gold?

That cannot happen until they realize that Gold is money and the paper is a fiction.

Even you in your sophistication and wisdom about these matters continue to hold on to the fallacious argument that gold has to accommodate the insane amount of fiat created by the madmen, you continue monsta, unwittingly, to give fiat the attribute of being something real.

It is not, it and the amount of it outstanding have no basis in reality whatsoever. It is worthless inconvertible into gold pretty colored paper, that was issued and used by the banksters to screw and control the dim. Once you understand that you will come to realize that gold stands alone as money and all fiat eventually becomes worthless, whatever it's country of origin or the silly numbers one attaches to its value. In other words gold will go up in price in dollars marks and yen etc. for as long as it takes for the fiction to become obvious and the currency to become worthless, and then replaced by a new one for the dim to use. The price is of no consequence, sooner or later the currency becomes worthless and gold stands stable, it has happened to all fiat in all of recorded history and will do so again.
Try and understand that gold is worth it's weight, not a price in some make believe paper currency. You have an ounce of gold or an ounce of silver. Perhaps a ten oz or 100 oz bar, maybe something as small as a gram or a mill. You do not have 1900 gold dollars, the concept is silly. 1900 is the rate you can turn 1 oz of gold in for scrip at the current daily rate in a currency called the US Dollar. Gold and the paper money have been severed from one another by the great con men of the world. Gold doesn't have to back all the worthless fiat in the world to be Gold, although it could.

                                         
1OZ PHILARMONIC
1OZ PHILARMONIC
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 07:05:21 PM

                                         
1OZ PHILARMONIC
1OZ PHILARMONIC

Inside of the above coin:

(http://www.nogw.com/images/tungsten-filled-gold-bar.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 22, 2012, 07:24:25 PM
Gold is money and the paper is a fiction.

You should put this as your signature!

It is not, it and the amount of it outstanding have no basis in reality whatsoever. It is worthless inconvertible into gold pretty colored paper, that was issued and used by the banksters to screw and control the dim. Once you understand that you will come to realize that gold stands alone as money and all fiat eventually becomes worthless, whatever it's country of origin or the silly numbers one attaches to its value. In other words gold will go up in price in dollars marks and yen etc. for as long as it takes for the fiction to become obvious and the currency to become worthless, and then replaced by a new one for the dim to use. The price is of no consequence, sooner or later the currency becomes worthless and gold stands stable, it has happened to all fiat in all of recorded history and will do so again.

Try and understand that gold is worth it's weight, not a price in some make believe paper currency. You have an ounce of gold or an ounce of silver. Perhaps a ten oz or 100 oz bar, maybe something as small as a gram or a mill. You do not have 1900 gold dollars, the concept is silly. 1900 is the rate you can turn 1 oz of gold in for scrip at the current daily rate in a currency called the US Dollar. Gold and the paper money have been severed from one another by the great con men of the world. Gold doesn't have to back all the worthless fiat in the world to be Gold, although it could.

I can buy the idea that all papers will in short time become worthless. Despite this fact I do think it can be useful to find the value of gold by comparing it to other hard assets such as food, oil or other commodities because while we can be fairly paper currencies will devalue we know that real goods will always be wanted so gold should be measured against those commodities that do have long-term value. If we should avoid paper then it is best to look at what our gold can buy. At this moment of time despite the unprecedented high oil prices gold is holding up well and one bar will buy you around 19 barrels of oil.

Gold to oil ratio
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii162/monsta666/Goldtooilratio.png)

This is around the historic norm which is quite telling seeing as the value for all traditional commodities is going through the roof when compared to the dollar. I think going forward this is the way we should measure the value of gold. What it can get us.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 22, 2012, 07:32:54 PM
(http://www.viewzone2.com/fakegold.top.jpg)
Now I am wondering, are you serious or is this made in jest? If true when was the fraud committed or if it has been a process when did the fraud really get going in earnest?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 22, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
(http://www.viewzone2.com/fakegold.top.jpg)
Now I am wondering, are you serious or is this made in jest? If true when was the fraud committed or if it has been a process when did the fraud really get going in earnest?


Monsta, My understanding is its a theory based on the fact they will not allow an audit of fort knox since 1970 or so, but dont quote me on that.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 22, 2012, 07:51:51 PM
Out of curiosity I looked up how much gold is held in reserve and it would seem the amount of gold ever mined is roughly about 165,000 tons and assuming prices of $1,900 an ounce or $62.1 million a ton then that would mean the value of all gold ever mined would amount to $10.1 trillion. However what is more useful is the amount of gold held in reserve by countries. The total gold reserves held at the state level is 34.913.7 tons and assuming the prices listed above then that would give a value $2.168 trillion. A high value indeed but considering the world GDP is valued at somewhere around $70 trillion in nominal terms it makes you wonder how feasible a transition to gold standard would be. And this is before we even consider all the debt behind all those assets that gold would have to cover. If we included all that debt we could be going into the quadrillion dollar territory.

Still, even if the gold standard cannot be restored in time gold will retain some value. Question is how long must we wait before people recognise the true value of gold?

That cannot happen until they realize that Gold is money and the paper is a fiction.

Even you in your sophistication and wisdom about these matters continue to hold on to the fallacious argument that gold has to accommodate the insane amount of fiat created by the madmen, you continue monsta, unwittingly, to give fiat the attribute of being something real.

It is not, it and the amount of it outstanding have no basis in reality whatsoever. It is worthless inconvertible into gold pretty colored paper, that was issued and used by the banksters to screw and control the dim. Once you understand that you will come to realize that gold stands alone as money and all fiat eventually becomes worthless, whatever it's country of origin or the silly numbers one attaches to its value. In other words gold will go up in price in dollars marks and yen etc. for as long as it takes for the fiction to become obvious and the currency to become worthless, and then replaced by a new one for the dim to use. The price is of no consequence, sooner or later the currency becomes worthless and gold stands stable, it has happened to all fiat in all of recorded history and will do so again.
Try and understand that gold is worth it's weight, not a price in some make believe paper currency. You have an ounce of gold or an ounce of silver. Perhaps a ten oz or 100 oz bar, maybe something as small as a gram or a mill. You do not have 1900 gold dollars, the concept is silly. 1900 is the rate you can turn 1 oz of gold in for scrip at the current daily rate in a currency called the US Dollar. Gold and the paper money have been severed from one another by the great con men of the world. Gold doesn't have to back all the worthless fiat in the world to be Gold, although it could.

                                         
1OZ PHILARMONIC
1OZ PHILARMONIC

GO
There was blink and you miss it piece on the news the other night that Perth Mint can not supply orders for coins bercause they are waiting on delivery of said gold. This has never happened before.

Now what have you to say in response to the rumour you are paying Oddjob for services in F I A T
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 09:19:31 PM
Monsta, My understanding is its a theory based on the fact they will not allow an audit of fort knox since 1970 or so, but dont quote me on that.

(http://www.silverdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/fake-gold-3_0.png)
The story I got is that the replacement with counterfeit bars started in the mid-70s but accelerated greatly under the Clinton Administration in the 80s.

Recently the Swiss National Bank found numerous 100oz Tungsten Cored bars in their Basement Safe.

As the value of Gold increases, the rewards for Counterfeiting increase as well, so there are increasingly more coutnterfeit coins and bars circulating.  Unless you drill them you can't tell the difference.  Since Coin Dealers won't let you drill a coin you won't know until after you buy it and only if you choose to drill it, which will take some value away from the numismatic collectibles of course.

Count on it, it Da Goobermint went to a Gold Standard, Gold coins would be cored with Tungsten all the time.  This is an old Playbook the Romans did, though not with Tungsten.  It's just as possible to debase metal coinage as Fiat, and certainly easier to counterfeit than the complex paper notes with special papers.

Gold has about ZERO chance of working as currency, but Gold Bugs can't grasp reality.  Sad.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 22, 2012, 09:48:58 PM
How about a taxonomic classification system for gold-bugs. I think its over-generalizing suggesting they all expect gold to become currency.

That does describe the Fofo fools, but I think the majority just see it as a good investment. Has to be way better than stocks and real estate even with an exchange hit of Around 25%

It looks like China is Stockpiling all gold  available (which is why Perth Mint can not supply coins now, Kalgoorlie gold mines have been majority bought out by Chinese so they ship it out instead of to the mint.)
So with China stockpiling all this gold we have to ask WHY? What is the game-plan.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 22, 2012, 10:39:54 PM
It looks like China is Stockpiling all gold  available (which is why Perth Mint can not supply coins now, Kalgoorlie gold mines have been majority bought out by Chinese so they ship it out instead of to the mint.)
So with China stockpiling all this gold we have to ask WHY? What is the game-plan.

The Chinese are stockpiling metals all across the board.  They got warehouses chock full of copper, nickel, silver too.  They are trying to diversify but they got the same problem with these as they have with too much paper.  If they try to liquidate, it will drive down the price.  The plan is to collect Big Paperweights.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 23, 2012, 01:08:23 AM
 Quote Uncle Bob  "GO
There was blink and you miss it piece on the news the other night that Perth Mint can not supply orders for coins bercause they are waiting on delivery of said gold. This has never happened before.

Now what have you to say in response to the rumour you are paying Oddjob for services in F I A T"

Thank's Unc, Really needed a good belly laugh. You are one Hot Ticket.   Go  :D ;D :laugh: :icon_mrgreen: :exp-grin:

                           
oddjob
oddjob
Title: Ft. Knox Tungsten
Post by: RE on October 23, 2012, 01:31:37 AM

Clintons and Federal Reserve bankers linked to fake gold in Fort Knox. (http://www.zenzoneforum.com/threads/19050-Clinton-Linked-to-Fake-Ft-Knox-Gold)
 
(http://presscore.ca/2011/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tungsten-blanks.jpg)

The New Federal Reserve Gold
 
In October of 2009 China received a shipment of gold bars from the United States Department of the Treasury Bullion Depository in Fort Knox. The gold is regularly exchanged between countries to pay debts and to settle the balance of trade. Most gold is exchanged and stored in vaults under the supervision of a special organization based in London, the London Bullion Market Association (or LBMA). When the shipment was received, the Chinese government ordered special tests be performed to guarantee the purity and weight of the gold bars as China is the largest foreign holder of US Treasury securities. Chinese officials were shocked to learn that the bars were fake. The gold shipment contained a tungsten core with a thin coating of real gold. These tested gold bars originated in the US and had been stored in Fort Knox for years.
 
The Chinese government quickly launched an investigation and issued a statement that implicated the US government in the scheme. The gold shipment serial numbers revealed that these fake bars were made by the Federal Reserve bankers during the Clinton administration. It was during the Bill and Hillary Clinton presidency that the bankers of the Federal Reserve manufactured between 1.3 and 1.5 million 400 oz tungsten blanks. 640,000 of these tungsten blanks were gold plated and were shipped to Ft. Knox where they remain there to this day.
 
According to Chinese investigators, the balance of this 1.3 million to 1.5 million 400 oz tungsten cache was also gold plated and then “sold” into the international gold market. Not only has the United States gold stocks been swapped with fake gold the global market has also been been defrauded by the Federal Reserve bankers and the Clintons. As much as $600 billion dollars worth of gold has been affected by the Clinton Gold Heist.
 
A New York Post article titled, DA investigating NYMEX executive ,Manhattan, New York, –Feb. 2, 2004 indicated that the Clinton Gold Heist was being investigated by US officials. The article, written by Jennifer Anderson, reported that “A top executive at the New York Mercantile Exchange is being investigated by the Manhattan district attorney. Sources close to the exchange said that Stuart Smith, senior vice president of operations at the exchange, was served with a search warrant by the district attorney’s office last week.

Details of the investigation have not been disclosed, but a NYMEX spokeswoman said it was unrelated to any of the exchange’s markets. She declined to comment further other than to say that charges had not been brought. A spokeswoman for the Manhattan district attorney’s office also declined comment.”
 The offices of the Senior Vice President of Operations — NYMEX — is exactly where you would go to find the records [serial number and smelter of origin] for EVERY GOLD BAR ever physically settled on the exchange. They are required to keep these records. These precise records would show the lineage of all the physical gold settled on the exchange and hence “prove” that the amount of gold in question could not have possibly come from the U.S. mining operations — because the amounts in question coming from U.S. smelters would undoubtedly be vastly bigger than domestic mine production.
 
Why use tungsten?
 
To print fake money you need to have the special paper, otherwise the bills don’t feel right and can be easily detected by special pens that most merchants and banks use. Likewise, if you are going to fake gold bars you had better be sure they have the same weight and properties of real gold.
 
The problem with making good-quality fake gold is that gold is remarkably dense. It’s almost twice the density of lead, and two-and-a-half times more dense than steel. You don’t usually notice this because small gold rings and the like don’t weigh enough to make it obvious, but if you’ve ever held a bar of gold, it’s absolutely unmistakable: A gold bar is very, very heavy.
 
The standard gold bar for bank-to-bank trade, known as a “London good delivery bar” weighs 400 troy ounces (over thirty-three pounds), yet is no bigger than a paperback novel. A bar of steel the same size would weigh only thirteen and a half pounds.
 There are very few metals that are as dense as gold, and with only two exceptions they all cost as much or more than gold. The first exception is depleted uranium, which is cheap if you’re a government, but hard for individuals to get. It’s also radioactive, which could be a bit of an issue.
 
The second exception is tungsten. Tungsten is lot cheaper than gold but it has exactly the same density as gold, to three decimal places. The main differences are that it’s the wrong color, and that it’s much, much harder than gold. Pure gold is quite soft You can dent it with a fingernail.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 23, 2012, 01:59:36 AM
Quote Uncle Bob "It looks like China is Stockpiling all gold  available (which is why Perth Mint can not supply coins now, Kalgoorlie gold mines have been majority bought out by Chinese so they ship it out instead of to the mint.)
So with China stockpiling all this gold we have to ask WHY? What is the game-plan."


A most interesting question that gets very little of the attention that it deserves Unc.

Having thought quite a few years about it and after questioning many friends in the gold community it becomes more of  puzzle as time goes on.

They are the largest producers now domestically and continue to buy on the market in excess of their own domestic consumption, and publicaly announce their intention to keep doing so. Most unusual

Even more fantastic is their open exhortations to their people to buy all the gold they can, they ACTUALLY advise them to do so on TV and in the press. An unheard of proposal for a government with a paper currency.

You will kindly note that Russia, India, South Korea and even very poor Bangladesh join the Chinese in this endevour, albeit in a lesser amount and without the urging of the citizenry to buy.

Many experts in the currency arena feel China is preparing to assume the role of reserve currency for the world and will soon make an announcement, by soon I mean within the decade, that their currency will be backed by gold, convertible, and trade freely.

While I certainly agree with that view my idea is that it is a lot more than that. The Chinese nation just went through one of the worst hyperinflations in history during the 1940's, and have apparently learned a valuable lesson about Fiat. They are most likely hedging themselves from the same disaster they see coming to the US dollar, which is still currently the reserve currency of the world. This, at least to me, explains their concern for their citizens as well as the government treasury.

Enclosing a picture of a stamp from my collection which shows clearly how far the madness went in  China.  Remember China a nation of over a billion people as recent as 1947 is when this happened. Not Zimbabwe or some Banana Republic!

                                           
China 1948 Airmail 50,000 on 1$ Peking Full og nh Suprb Gem Chan A59
China 1948 Airmail 50,000 on 1$ Peking Full og nh Suprb Gem Chan A59
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 23, 2012, 02:05:45 AM
Many experts in the currency arena feel China is preparing to assume the role of reserve currency for the world and will soon make an announcement, by soon I mean within the decade, that their currency will be backed by gold, convertible, and trade freely.

The Chinese are...


(http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/8-897-ZYPJ000Z.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 23, 2012, 02:34:45 AM
RE
Lets assume China and Russia Dont step in with Iran and all their warnings are a bluff, The only thing that would make them toast is shipping cost which at the moment is really cheap. There are plenty of emerging markets with large populations of potential middle class polluters to buy imitation honda and yamaha dirtbikes and everything else. Its not the case that they really need european and american consumer markets to stay strong.
Lets say that 7.8% growth for now is over-optimistic, lets say its really 5%, well thats healthy in a transition period. They have gone all around the world slipping their hand into everyones pocket with trade partnerships, but everyone is waking up to find that hand in their pocket has them by the balls.

On top of this, the more various states and countries can not deliver on their budget black holes the happier they are to sell off assets to the chinese. Bill Clinton bent his own country over way worse than the fort knox heist when he sold all the component contratcts for the miltary to chinese suppliers, mostly for bribes.
Unless the US has some excellent shadow systems immune to ching chong hackers, the weapon systems they have are all russian roullette.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 23, 2012, 05:17:36 PM
Lets assume China and Russia Dont step in with Iran and all their warnings are a bluff, The only thing that would make them toast is shipping cost which at the moment is really cheap. There are plenty of emerging markets with large populations of potential middle class polluters to buy imitation honda and yamaha dirtbikes and everything else. Its not the case that they really need european and american consumer markets to stay strong.
Lets say that 7.8% growth for now is over-optimistic, lets say its really 5%, well thats healthy in a transition period. They have gone all around the world slipping their hand into everyones pocket with trade partnerships, but everyone is waking up to find that hand in their pocket has them by the balls.

A lot of talk is given to the fact that if the US or Europe fail then China, Russia or other nations can still keep expanding by selling their products to other developing nations. Let us look at the maths to see how feasible this theory could be. For sake of argument let us assume the economies of the US and the EU are $16 trillion in nominal terms. 70% of this total GDP figure goes toward consumption, that is $11.2 trillion each or $22.4 trillion. So China and other exporting nation have the potential to tap into a $22.4 trillion market.

Let us suppose due to the West failing economy this market drops by 2% per annum. That 2% would equate to $448 billion dollars. Now consider the biggest economy outside the EU/US would be China with a GDP of $7.2 trillion. Of this $7.2 trillion figure about 34% is devoted to consumption (one of the lowest on record btw). This 34% would equate to $2.45 trillion. As you can see to make up the 2% short fall in Europe and the US the Chinese economy would need to boost consumption by $448 billion per annum or 18%. That is a colossal increase. This is especially so if you consider that China is a mercantilist economy and part of its success derives from the following the export model namely undervalued currency, negative real interest rates, subsidies to various business operations and few welfare benefits to employees. All these factors while great for encouraging exports and investments is terrible to promoting consumption spending habits.

Now off course the question you would say ask is consumption could grow in other developing regions. If you add all the other major economies around the Asian block you get a total close to around $5 trillion (this is excluding Japan who should not be counted on for future growth). Off this let total we can say the consumption rate for this region averages around 50% which is somewhat typical of most countries in the world. Although it should be noted it is probably lower than this figure since many of these economies follow an export model but let us be generous and say it is 50%. That would give another $2.5 trillion. So in total the possible export market for this region including China would be $5 trillion. To make up the short fall in Europe and the US would require this market to rise by almost 10%. This total seems rather ambitious when one thinks most of these Asian tigers all follow the export model that promotes investment at the expense of consumption.

In short I don't think it is going to happen. To me it is a pipe dream that the Asian economies can continue growing while the US/Europe contract. It would be a mighty struggle to maintain 0% growth nevermind 5%. Oh and all this talk ignores the possibility of the whole banking sectors going into meltdown which is a distinct possibility should the Western economies continually contract. Once that happens then the writing would be on the wall for any nation.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 23, 2012, 06:24:58 PM
Quote
Monsta666 "In short I don't think it is going to happen. To me it is a pipe dream that the Asian economies can continue growing while the US/Europe contract. It would be a mighty struggle to maintain 0% growth nevermind 5%. Oh and all this talk ignores the possibility of the whole banking sectors going into meltdown which is a distinct possibility should the Western economies continually contract. Once that happens then the writing would be on the wall for any nation."

Bulls eye Monsta, the down side of Globalization the great planners forgot about.

Why else would China buy ourworthless debt endlessly, but to keep their export game alive.

Dr Fu Manchu learned to play chess thousands of years ago, he's no dummy. Keep your eyes on the Precious Yellow, he has acquired an insatiable thirst for it lately.
Dr Fu Manchu
Dr Fu Manchu
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on October 23, 2012, 09:37:08 PM
Monsta, My understanding is its a theory based on the fact they will not allow an audit of fort knox since 1970 or so, but dont quote me on that.

(http://www.silverdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/fake-gold-3_0.png)
The story I got is that the replacement with counterfeit bars started in the mid-70s but accelerated greatly under the Clinton Administration in the 80s.

Recently the Swiss National Bank found numerous 100oz Tungsten Cored bars in their Basement Safe.

As the value of Gold increases, the rewards for Counterfeiting increase as well, so there are increasingly more coutnterfeit coins and bars circulating.  Unless you drill them you can't tell the difference.  Since Coin Dealers won't let you drill a coin you won't know until after you buy it and only if you choose to drill it, which will take some value away from the numismatic collectibles of course.

Count on it, it Da Goobermint went to a Gold Standard, Gold coins would be cored with Tungsten all the time.  This is an old Playbook the Romans did, though not with Tungsten.  It's just as possible to debase metal coinage as Fiat, and certainly easier to counterfeit than the complex paper notes with special papers.

Gold has about ZERO chance of working as currency, but Gold Bugs can't grasp reality.  Sad.

RE

I'm wondering what is the chance some government is allready there? 

Who drills their new one ounce Gold Eagles to check for tungsten?

Are Maples or Pandas inherently safer?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 24, 2012, 12:15:31 AM
Lets assume China and Russia Dont step in with Iran and all their warnings are a bluff, The only thing that would make them toast is shipping cost which at the moment is really cheap. There are plenty of emerging markets with large populations of potential middle class polluters to buy imitation honda and yamaha dirtbikes and everything else. Its not the case that they really need european and american consumer markets to stay strong.
Lets say that 7.8% growth for now is over-optimistic, lets say its really 5%, well thats healthy in a transition period. They have gone all around the world slipping their hand into everyones pocket with trade partnerships, but everyone is waking up to find that hand in their pocket has them by the balls.

A lot of talk is given to the fact that if the US or Europe fail then China, Russia or other nations can still keep expanding by selling their products to other developing nations. Let us look at the maths to see how feasible this theory could be. For sake of argument let us assume the economies of the US and the EU are $16 trillion in nominal terms. 70% of this total GDP figure goes toward consumption, that is $11.2 trillion each or $22.4 trillion. So China and other exporting nation have the potential to tap into a $22.4 trillion market.

Let us suppose due to the West failing economy this market drops by 2% per annum. That 2% would equate to $448 billion dollars. Now consider the biggest economy outside the EU/US would be China with a GDP of $7.2 trillion. Of this $7.2 trillion figure about 34% is devoted to consumption (one of the lowest on record btw). This 34% would equate to $2.45 trillion. As you can see to make up the 2% short fall in Europe and the US the Chinese economy would need to boost consumption by $448 billion per annum or 18%. That is a colossal increase. This is especially so if you consider that China is a mercantilist economy and part of its success derives from the following the export model namely undervalued currency, negative real interest rates, subsidies to various business operations and few welfare benefits to employees. All these factors while great for encouraging exports and investments is terrible to promoting consumption spending habits.

Now off course the question you would say ask is consumption could grow in other developing regions. If you add all the other major economies around the Asian block you get a total close to around $5 trillion (this is excluding Japan who should not be counted on for future growth). Off this let total we can say the consumption rate for this region averages around 50% which is somewhat typical of most countries in the world. Although it should be noted it is probably lower than this figure since many of these economies follow an export model but let us be generous and say it is 50%. That would give another $2.5 trillion. So in total the possible export market for this region including China would be $5 trillion. To make up the short fall in Europe and the US would require this market to rise by almost 10%. This total seems rather ambitious when one thinks most of these Asian tigers all follow the export model that promotes investment at the expense of consumption.

In short I don't think it is going to happen. To me it is a pipe dream that the Asian economies can continue growing while the US/Europe contract. It would be a mighty struggle to maintain 0% growth nevermind 5%. Oh and all this talk ignores the possibility of the whole banking sectors going into meltdown which is a distinct possibility should the Western economies continually contract. Once that happens then the writing would be on the wall for any nation.

It is the size of the populations of countries like India, Indonesia, and Brazil, and their growing consumer markets, not just nearby asian countries that makes it seem feasible. Im just throwing the idea up, I dont actually believe in it.

My own sense is these are brightly burning but burning out shooting stars, because 1, there isnt enough cheap oil and resources for them all to drive cars and run aircons. 2, They are destroying their rivers and forests so fast, while displacing villagers that it can not continue without some major upheaval.

The chinese Honda plant alone produces almost a million cars a year and most of those are sold domestically. They are betting their food future on owning massive farms in the US, Australia, and Africa, French wineries etc. I think as tensions and conflicts escalate Their access to all this property and ports will have problems of basically being unwelcome and sabotaged in various ways. That is not even taking into account shipping costs screwing their u-name-it export and food import, rising from middle east oil disruption.
Title: The Golden Blind Spot
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 02:41:09 AM
The Golden Blind Spot  (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/10/24/the-golden-blind-spot/) by Diner Monsta666 now UP on the Diner Blog!

Graphics courtesy of RE as usual, in this case chosen to emphasize the COUNTERFEITING problem that occurs with all PM coinage and debases it as readily as printing paper does.  GO never responds to the counterfeiting problem when I detail it in my responses to him, so I figured I would stick it to him with the graphics in this article.  :icon_mrgreen:

Meanwhile in the text, Monsta covers many of the main areas of difficulty with PM based systems, though by no means complete and I don't agree with everything he wrote there either.  However, I will wait a bit to see what this flushes out in terms of argument from other Players before I Pontificate further on the issue.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 03:07:52 AM

I'm wondering what is the chance some government is allready there? 

Who drills their new one ounce Gold Eagles to check for tungsten?

Are Maples or Pandas inherently safer?

I am assuming "Pandas" are Chinese Minted Gold Coins.

Anybody who trusts ANYTHING the Chinese produce as "Pure" needs their head examined.  Elite chinese are evacuating China and taking whatever they can with them.  Same folks run the Chinese Mint.  If you Mint 1M Pandas, all you gotta do to be filthy Rich leaving the country is to drill out 1% of the coin and slip in a tungsten rod to replace what you drilled out, then cover over with Gold on the ends.  Even if you DRILL the coin, unless you happen to drill exactly where the Tungsten Rod inside is, you won't detect it.

With Gold valued now at around $1700/oz, the Profit to be made if you buy say 1000 100 oz Gold bars and core them with say 10% Tungsten is FANTASTIC return on Risk.  For little investment you instantly have 10% more bars to sell than you originally bought. Your chances of being caught are pretty small.  You don't think the Chinese got that figured out?  Or anybody else with access to large quantities of gold bars?  This is older than the hills stuff.

RE
Title: Re: The Golden Blind Spot
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 05:36:27 AM
The Golden Blind Spot  (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/10/24/the-golden-blind-spot/) by Diner Monsta666 now UP on the Diner Blog!

Graphics courtesy of RE as usual, in this case chosen to emphasize the COUNTERFEITING problem that occurs with all PM coinage and debases it as readily as printing paper does.  GO never responds to the counterfeiting problem when I detail it in my responses to him, so I figured I would stick it to him with the graphics in this article.  :icon_mrgreen:

Meanwhile in the text, Monsta covers many of the main areas of difficulty with PM based systems, though by no means complete and I don't agree with everything he wrote there either.  However, I will wait a bit to see what this flushes out in terms of argument from other Players before I Pontificate further on the issue.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

I responded in depth to your absurd views on gold counterfeiting and sent you three videos explaining why your views were in error. Like the statement "you have never called Gold tungsten" was not true, so is this one.

Monsta666 is a great poster, well intentioned and a valued contributor, but like you, he knows very little about Gold. His article is another muddy the waters, although well intentioned, your rantings about Gold are just silly bull shit with no validity whatsoever.

Not having the ability, as others who are smarter than you, Karl Denninger, James Quinn, and others, to just remove you from their presence, I will in the future, as my right of self censorship allows me, no longer comment. or rather should I say lower myself to your level of drivel in comments regarding the Noble Metal.
I have done all I can to try and help and was a complete failure in my efforts, the thickness of your skull is just too much for me to handle. Forgive me, I tried my best, it is just impenetrable.   
 
Confucius say " A FOOL AND HIS GOLD ARE SOON PARTED "
                                   
                                         
2746257 976033 Chinese statue of Confucius with bamboo background
2746257 976033 Chinese statue of Confucius with bamboo background

Title: Re: The Golden Blind Spot
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 24, 2012, 06:34:13 AM
The Golden Blind Spot  (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/10/24/the-golden-blind-spot/) by Diner Monsta666 now UP on the Diner Blog!

Graphics courtesy of RE as usual, in this case chosen to emphasize the COUNTERFEITING problem that occurs with all PM coinage and debases it as readily as printing paper does.  GO never responds to the counterfeiting problem when I detail it in my responses to him, so I figured I would stick it to him with the graphics in this article.  :icon_mrgreen:

Meanwhile in the text, Monsta covers many of the main areas of difficulty with PM based systems, though by no means complete and I don't agree with everything he wrote there either.  However, I will wait a bit to see what this flushes out in terms of argument from other Players before I Pontificate further on the issue.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE


Ok, I will have flushed out of me the plain obvious.

1/You call counterfeiting "old as the hills" in debasing the currency/value. Trading at 1700-1800$ oz up from 350$oz a decade ago, that level of debasement is one we can wear.

2/Using gold as trade on a small scale, Nobody has access to tungsten or technology to take it off the tip of their Kinchrome screwdrivers to put it in gold.

3/ Even if you could do it. Trading in gold for goods means melting tiny amounts out to be weighed on small scales, hard to hide tungsten in these.

Simple solution;Get caught get killed.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: The Dow Jones In Relation to Real Money
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 06:47:05 AM
dow gold ratio 1900 to 2009
dow gold ratio 1900 to 2009
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 07:06:14 AM
Gimmee a break GO.  That was a lame response/insult  even for you.  EVERYBODY KNOWS the reason I got banned from TBP & Ticker is because I squashed the Admins like bugs.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 07:18:31 AM
Gimmee a break GO.  That was a lame response/insult  even for you.  EVERYBODY KNOWS the reason I got banned from TBP & Ticker is because I squashed the Admins like bugs.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
                                               
                                         
SORRY
SORRY
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 24, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
The 3 initial points re the Tungsten Counterfeiting I put forward above deal with the pictorial side of the article as supplied by RE.

With regard to Monsta's main arguments,
Firstly the "long depression" of 1870's following the American civil War is not well known at least I had not heard of it, the 1890's depression is generally more recognized. I would say Monsta was being ethnocentric if he was not a Pom  ;). Secondly Im still not convinced the Chicken/Egg conundrum with war/depression is settled in favour of war first because there is no depression following WW2. Then again despite the whole idea being somehow missed except in very brief passing by Obama "2 wars on a chinese credit card" in the 3 presidential debates on firstly the economy, then another one on foreign policy, the connection right now with War first was never recognised.

Thirdly, Fractional reserve lending of gold backed money does not mean that the value of actually HOLDING the gold does not make sense. I see this as a case FOR gold not AGAINST it. As Monsta points out, they did this in the first place because they realised people were NOT taking their physical gold out of safe deposit in the bank.

The only problem against HOLDING gold is confiscation, which happened in the 1930's depression. Lets say you have it confiscated are recompensed at a dollar value then the dollar hyperinflates, you are screwed.
Title: Re: The Golden Blind Spot
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 04:06:32 PM

1/You call counterfeiting "old as the hills" in debasing the currency/value. Trading at 1700-1800$ oz up from 350$oz a decade ago, that level of debasement is one we can wear.

Value change of the actual metal has nothing to do with debasement.

Quote
2/Using gold as trade on a small scale, Nobody has access to tungsten or technology to take it off the tip of their Kinchrome screwdrivers to put it in gold.

You're joking right?  Go to Tungsten.com[/b]]Tungsten.com (http://[b) or Torrey Hills Technologies  (http://www.torreyhillstech.com/wroddept.html) and order 3/16" wire online.  Next go to Home Depot and buy a Dremel high speed rotary multi tool, soldering iron and clamps and 3/16" drill bits.  Go over to the coin shop and buy a Gold Eagle.  Go home to your basement, drill 5 holes into the side of the coing almost through to the other edge. Save the gold filings you drill out.  Insert the tungsten wire to fill the holes.  Top off with some of the gold dust and melt the spot with soldering iron.  Use the buff wheel on the Dremel to polish.  POOF, you are done!

Quote
3/ Even if you could do it. Trading in gold for goods means melting tiny amounts out to be weighed on small scales, hard to hide tungsten in these

Not really.  You can grind tungsten into dust then coat each tiny particle in a plating appararatus any chem teacher knows how to set up with a couple of buckets and electrodes.  It would be indistiguishable from Gold Dust until melted.

Anyhow, the major problem you have is on the commercial level with the coins and bars, which is what most Gold Bugs store in their Basement Safes.  Like the Swiss National Bank, you don't know how many of them are counterfeit until you start drilling.

Quote
Simple solution;Get caught get killed.

You can say the same for Counterfeiting Paper, and in fact traditionally Counterfeiting has been considered a Crime worse than Rape or Murder.  Isaac Newton as Master of the Mint was notorious for Torturing Counterfeiters.  When the profit margin is big enough though, lots of people will take the risk, especially if they are over in China doing the Tungsten Coring and selling the Coins over the Net to Gold Bugs here in the FSofA.  How you gonna kill them?

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 04:17:36 PM
The 3 initial points re the Tungsten Counterfeiting I put forward above deal with the pictorial side of the article as supplied by RE.

With regard to Monsta's main arguments,
Firstly the "long depression" of 1870's following the American civil War is not well known at least I had not heard of it, the 1890's depression is generally more recognized. I would say Monsta was being ethnocentric if he was not a Pom  ;). Secondly Im still not convinced the Chicken/Egg conundrum with war/depression is settled in favour of war first because there is no depression following WW2. Then again despite the whole idea being somehow missed except in very brief passing by Obama "2 wars on a chinese credit card" in the 3 presidential debates on firstly the economy, then another one on foreign policy, the connection right now with War first was never recognised.

Thirdly, Fractional reserve lending of gold backed money does not mean that the value of actually HOLDING the gold does not make sense. I see this as a case FOR gold not AGAINST it. As Monsta points out, they did this in the first place because they realised people were NOT taking their physical gold out of safe deposit in the bank.

The only problem against HOLDING gold is confiscation, which happened in the 1930's depression. Lets say you have it confiscated are recompensed at a dollar value then the dollar hyperinflates, you are screwed.
       

http://www.youtube.com/v/5FvM_4B7Pkc&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: How to Spot Fake Gold
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 04:27:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/1aY8NKHfCnY&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold bars filled with tungsten... I am not worried
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 04:41:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/rg1t_buRBCs&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 04:57:27 PM
First on the Magnet Test:

Quote
Tungsten has many properties that Gold has making it hard to distinguish. Firstly neither Gold nor Tungsten are magnetic. They do have slightly different magnetic properties as one is diamagnetic and one is paramagnetic, but this isn't easily distinguishable.

Second on the Ultrasound

Quote
So what is the answer? Well I'm afraid that other than intrusive and damaging testing the only option is a sonic or electrical test. An ultrasound can be calibrated to detect Gold and distinguish Tungsten or a sensitive electrical test can be performed to measure the resistive properties. Neither of which I would expect your average person to have to hand.

So, you have an Ultrasound machine?  This will work well when the grid goes down.  Also, that video was a little misleading.  Because Voids and other materials have much different density, they are readily apparent on Ultrasound.  Since Tungsten has the same density as Gold, its not as obvious as those pictures make it seem, though I am sure still detectible if well calibrated.

RE

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold bars filled with tungsten... I am not worried
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 05:08:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/rg1t_buRBCs&fs=1

This guy is s-s-so c-c-confident his c-c-coins are r-r-real he c-c-can't s-s-stop s-s-stuttering.  LOL.

Go with the Twinkies.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 24, 2012, 05:18:02 PM
While I can see a scenario where there is significant gold counterfeiting that will catch out the unwary gold investor out I do think getting too caught up on this issue distracts us from the other issues of this topic. I can certainly see gold fraud as a big issue but I chose not to focus my article on this issue. Yes one could say it is a disadvantage of using gold as it is easier to fake than modern fiat currencies but I think this discussion, if taken too far, generally detracts from the other points which are also equally valid but less widely discussed.

One point I did not really mention about gold in the article I wrote is that of hoarding. In a financial crisis, a lot of the richer players will hold a disproportionate amount of gold and in a period of uncertainty it will be hoarded which in a gold backed currency means a large chunk of the money supply will be effectively cut off. This will cause significant issues on its own to people who do not own significant amounts of gold i.e. the vast majority of the population as it creates a largely deflationary scenario. If people hold debts (which they will likely do the ruling class) then the pain will be that much greater to them.

Also as big as counterfeiting maybe the bigger danger I see in gold investments is that of confiscation either by government decree or violent/zombie hoards. It will be harder to avoid such problems should they develop. The other major issue is if there simply no resources or a scarcity of a said resource then your gold will not help you much. You maybe in a better than the average Joe who is still holding worthless dollars but the step up would not be much. Your gold holdings would however be more beneficial once some kind of salvage economy gets under way but then how long would that take? Plus with any wealth, real or perceived, you need to address the issue of how to defend it. If gold is as valuable as people on this thread suggest then you will be a BIG target to zombies.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 05:37:11 PM
Quote
This guy is s-s-so c-c-confident his c-c-coins are r-r-real he c-c-can't s-s-stop s-s-stuttering.  LOL.


Do you always ridicule people with speech impediments, or just the ones you don't agree with?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 24, 2012, 05:54:12 PM
Theres a bit too much jumping between cornucopia, doom-lite and full doom scenarios wrt gold as currency or gold backed currency.
FOFO fools are cornucopian and  historical examples are also within the normal cycle of boom/bust.

Asians, Arabs and Indians do hold plenty of personal gold, even poor ones strive to do that. They have in the past used it in small amounts to trade with for real goods such as sacks of rice. They are all gold-bugs in hedging.

I didnt object to RE's course in DIY drilling/counterfeiting 101, because in a doom lite situation I would expect to have access to running electricity or a generator or even solar panel and 12v cordless.

What Im saying is arguments for or against need to specify which category they do and dont apply to.

Im not going to take the chance that when GO emerges as a post apocalyptic warlord, he hasnt sent Oddjob into the abandoned ante-natal unit, to pinch the ultrasound to check on my DIY conjob.


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 06:18:07 PM
Quote
This guy is s-s-so c-c-confident his c-c-coins are r-r-real he c-c-can't s-s-stop s-s-stuttering.  LOL.


Do you always ridicule people with speech impediments, or just the ones you don't agree with?

I take my cue from Don Rickles and ridicule everybody.  :icon_mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fyxjEuFfxV0

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
While I can see a scenario where there is significant gold counterfeiting that will catch out the unwary gold investor out I do think getting too caught up on this issue distracts us from the other issues of this topic. I can certainly see gold fraud as a big issue but I chose not to focus my article on this issue. Yes one could say it is a disadvantage of using gold as it is easier to fake than modern fiat currencies but I think this discussion, if taken too far, generally detracts from the other points which are also equally valid but less widely discussed.

One point I did not really mention about gold in the article I wrote is that of hoarding. In a financial crisis, a lot of the richer players will hold a disproportionate amount of gold and in a period of uncertainty it will be hoarded which in a gold backed currency means a large chunk of the money supply will be effectively cut off. This will cause significant issues on its own to people who do not own significant amounts of gold i.e. the vast majority of the population as it creates a largely deflationary scenario. If people hold debts (which they will likely do the ruling class) then the pain will be that much greater to them.

Also as big as counterfeiting maybe the bigger danger I see in gold investments is that of confiscation either by government decree or violent/zombie hoards. It will be harder to avoid such problems should they develop. The other major issue is if there simply no resources or a scarcity of a said resource then your gold will not help you much. You maybe in a better than the average Joe who is still holding worthless dollars but the step up would not be much. Your gold holdings would however be more beneficial once some kind of salvage economy gets under way but then how long would that take? Plus with any wealth, real or perceived, you need to address the issue of how to defend it. If gold is as valuable as people on this thread suggest then you will be a BIG target to zombies.
[/quote]

Quote
Yes one could say it is a disadvantage of using gold as it is easier to fake than modern fiat currencies but I think this discussion

If you really believe that, discontinue reading this, it will be meaningless to you.

Quote
One point I did not really mention about gold in the article I wrote is that of hoarding. In a financial crisis, a lot of the richer players will hold a disproportionate amount of gold and in a period of uncertainty it will be hoarded which in a gold backed currency means a large chunk of the money supply will be effectively cut off.

Correct, good work, and were the currency not convertible into gold they would own a disproportionate share of that, and of course do. What else is new?

Quote
This will cause significant issues on its own to people who do not own significant amounts of gold i.e. the vast majority of the population as it creates a largely deflationary scenario. If people hold debts (which they will likely do the ruling class) then the pain will be that much greater to them.

Correct again the people without either the Gold or fiat will suffer the most, witness Greece. You point that the poor will get dicked by the rich is true and historically accurate. Brilliant observation!

Quote
Also as big as counterfeiting maybe the bigger danger I see in gold investments is that of confiscation either by government decree or violent/zombie hoards.

Right again Monsta, a hat trick, the Zombies are going to come after me for my tungsten filled gold and let you and you paper money stash stay at home with your hoards of canned goods and Twinkies, and let you continue watching the three stooges on TV until Doomsday goes bye bye.

Thanks for your help,  I am going our right now and get rid of my gold for a briefcase full of fiat so the Zombies don't get me. 


Quote
The other major issue is if there simply no resources or a scarcity of a said resource then your gold will not help you much

There is a point that is truly astounding and so insightful. Did you really think that one up on your own or are you a former student of RE?  Such wisdom from a young man has me suspicious.

My pocket full of paper isn't going to be much fucking use to me then either, is it, Your Wizardry?

Leave GO Alone He's got Tungsten. Go to Monsta's House For the Real Thing
Leave GO Alone He's got Tungsten. Go to Monsta's House For the Real Thing


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 06:59:42 PM
I take my cue from Don Rickles and ridicule everybody.  :icon_mrgreen:

He was a funny bastard for sure!

Saw him in Vegas decades ago, he sure can tell a dirty joke. Another thing gone bad, Comedy.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 24, 2012, 07:20:19 PM
Quote Unc""Im not going to take the chance that when GO emerges as a post apocalyptic warlord, he hasnt sent Oddjob into the abandoned ante-natal unit, to pinch the ultrasound to check on my DIY conjob."  ;D ;D :icon_mrgreen: :laugh: :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/v/iHFqDjzkyQQ&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on October 24, 2012, 09:15:58 PM
Quote Unc""Im not going to take the chance that when GO emerges as a post apocalyptic warlord, he hasnt sent Oddjob into the abandoned ante-natal unit, to pinch the ultrasound to check on my DIY conjob."  ;D ;D :icon_mrgreen: :laugh: :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/v/iHFqDjzkyQQ&fs=1

Odd Job will do just fine until he meets up with Smith & Wesson.

(http://gifsoup.com/view/329121/indiana-jones-vs-sword-o.gif)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 24, 2012, 10:01:47 PM
Look carefully at Harrison Ford in that IJ clip and notice how sweaty, weak, and unstable hardly able to stand he is. I saw an intv recently where he said he was meant to get into a long fight scene but was too sick and weak on set with fever to do it so they shortened it...
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: No Financial Crisis Was Ever Caused By Stable Money
Post by: g on October 25, 2012, 04:39:22 AM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2012/10/14/let-it-be-known-that-no-financial-crisis-was-ever-caused-by-stable-money/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2012/10/14/let-it-be-known-that-no-financial-crisis-was-ever-caused-by-stable-money/)


Let It Be Known That No Financial Crisis Was Ever Caused by Stable Money
US gold certificate (1922)

US gold certificate (1922) (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

There aren’t many blanket statements you can make about economics. Usually, “it depends.” But, there’s one thing I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence:

No economic crisis was ever caused by stable money.

For some reason, the gold standard system has gained a reputation for causing crises. This is mostly from the Keynesian camp: they need floating currencies to play their funny money games. The purpose of funny money is to solve some kind of problem whose fundamental cause is typically not monetary at all. For example, we are now in a process of trying to solve a bank insolvency crisis, an unemployment problem, and a fiscal deficit problem, with a monetary solution.

The purpose of a gold standard system is to produce stable money. Nobody has found a better way to do so. For the most part, it works. So, how does this gold-based stable money cause a crisis? It doesn’t.

Of course, many crises happened during the gold standard era, before floating currencies appeared in 1971. In the two centuries before 1971, people got into financial trouble for all kinds of reasons. Banks lent money to people that couldn’t pay it back. Businesses invested in ideas that turned out to be not so hot. Governments borrowed and spent more than they should have. Destructive domestic tax increases were imposed. Countries got into tariff wars with each other. There were even a few World Wars, Civil Wars, communist revolutions, and so forth.

None of them were caused by money that was too stable.  :icon_study: :icon_study:

                                     
Us gold certificate 1922
Us gold certificate 1922

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Telegraph Notes Mystery German Gold Withdrawal
Post by: g on October 25, 2012, 04:58:51 AM
From ZERO Hedge this morning.   :icon_study:

Telegraph notes mystery German gold withdrawal and GATA's clamor about it
   

Submitted by cpowell on 10:47PM ET Wednesday, October 24, 2012. Section: #0066cc [8];">Daily Dispatches

Bundesbank Slashed London Gold Holdings in Mystery Move

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
The Telegraph, London
Wednesday, October 24, 2012

#800080 [9];">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9631962/Bundesbank-sl... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9631962/Bundesbank-sl...)

Germany withdrew two-thirds of its vast holdings of gold from Bank of England vaults shortly after the launch of the euro more than a decade ago, according to a confidential report that emerged on Wednesday.

The revelation came as Germany's budget watchdog demanded an on-site probe of the country's remaining gold reserves in London, Paris, and New York to verify whether the metal really exists.

The country has 3,396 tons of gold worth E143 billion (E116 billion), the world's second-largest holding after the United States. Nearly all of it was shifted to vaults abroad during the Cold War in case of a Soviet attack.

Roughly 66 percent is held at the New York Federal Reserve, 21 percent at the Bank of England, and 8 percent at the Bank of France. The German Court of Auditors told legislators in a redacted report that the gold had "never been verified physically" and ordered the Bundesbank to secure access to the storage sites.

The report called for repatriation of 150 tons over the next three years to test the quality and weight of the gold bars. It said Frankfurt has no register of numbered gold bars.

 

The report also claimed that the Bundesbank had slashed its holdings in London from 1,440 tons to 500 tons in 2000 and 2001, allegedly because storage costs were too high. The metal was flown to Frankfurt by air freight.

The revelation has baffled gold veterans. The shift came as the euro was at its weakest, slumping to $0.84 against the dollar. But it also came as the Bank of England was selling off most of Britain's gold reserves -- at market lows -- on orders from Gordon Brown.

Peter Hambro, chair of the UK-listed gold miner Petropavlovsk, said the Bundesbank may have withdrawn its bullion in self-protection since it did not, apparently, have its own specifically allocated bars in London. "They may have decided that the Bank of England had lent out too much gold and decided it was safer to bring theirs home. This is about the identification. Can you identify your own allocated gold, or are you just a general creditor with a metal account?"

The watchdog report follows claims by the German civic campaign group "Bring Back Our Gold" and its US allies in the Gold Anti-Trust Committee that official data cannot be trusted. They allege central banks have loaned out or "sold short" much of their gold.

The refrain has been picked up by German legislators. "All the gold must come home: It is precisely in this crisis that we need certainty over our gold reserves," said Heinz-Peter Haustein from the Free Democrats.

The Bundesbank said it had full trust in the "integrity and independence" of its custodians, and is given detailed accounts each year. Yet it hinted at further steps to secure its reserves. "This could also involve relocating part of the holdings," it said.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-25/telegraph-notes-mystery-german-gold-withdrawal-and-gatas-clamor-about-it (http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-25/telegraph-notes-mystery-german-gold-withdrawal-and-gatas-clamor-about-it)      ::)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: No Financial Crisis Was Ever Caused By Stable Money
Post by: RE on October 25, 2012, 05:02:29 AM

Let It Be Known That No Financial Crisis Was Ever Caused by Stable Money

"Stable" and "Money" in the same sentence is an Oxymoron.  Think "Jumbo Shrimp" or Military Intelligence".

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 25, 2012, 06:04:33 AM
Correct, good work, and were the currency not convertible into gold they would own a disproportionate share of that, and of course do. What else is new?

I think this issue should not simply be dismissed out of hand. Today issues of inequality are causing a lot of social unrest and distrust between various members of society. It has been shown that the higher the level of inequality present in society the more distrustful it becomes. As a result of this distrust often there is less empathy for other people and more crime or social tensions. If we move to a system that various gold then it is quite likely the existing inequalities we see today will increase further which will only serve to exacerbate existing problems even more. As the collapse unfolds then have nots will become increasingly bitter and reckless and they will target the haves with that much more vigor. If gold increases the gap between the rich and poor then it is likely the conflict between the two will be even greater.

Finally as another point large inequalities are not favourable from an marcoeconomic standpoint. If a smaller percentage of people have all the monetary wealth then there will be less transactions in the economy than if a larger population had access to the same wealth. This is because the richer people are more likely to save (hoard) a larger percentage of their money (in this case gold) than poorer people. The poorer people will spend a larger percentage of their money more quickly to meet their basic needs. If there are more transactions the economy will be more healthy. In fact you could say the desire of the rich to get richer becomes self-defeating if taken far enough. The issue of gold could make this dynamic even worse... With that said, it is not bad if the individual does it but you just need to see that if everyone had this mentality it would be a negative to society.   


Right again Monsta, a hat trick, the Zombies are going to come after me for my tungsten filled gold and let you and you paper money stash stay at home with your hoards of canned goods and Twinkies, and let you continue watching the three stooges on TV until Doomsday goes bye bye.

Thanks for your help,  I am going our right now and get rid of my gold for a briefcase full of fiat so the Zombies don't get me.

Just because there is a large risk of gold confiscation it does not mean that gold should be abandoned. What I was trying to get at is if someone should invest in gold to protect their wealth and the consequences of collapse, then they need to address the issue that governments or people will try to take this gold away from them. Historically this been the case so it seems a little foolish to believe it won't happen again. If you are going to get gold then you need to make some plans to ensure the government or wondering hoards will not steal the precious gold you spent so much time aquiring. It is not a insurmountable problem but it is something that needs to be addressed and you need to consider the ways it can be stolen. Failure to do so could mean all that gold you accumulated would be for nought which would be a shame.

There is a point that is truly astounding and so insightful. Did you really think that one up on your own or are you a former student of RE?  Such wisdom from a young man has me suspicious.

I did not think of that point on my own. A lot of my ideas just come as a result of reading various sources throughout my life and applying common sense to determine whether the source has merit or is bogus. The internet is a vast place with a wealth of knowledge and people can learn much if they took the time to learn. Oh and I should say learn with an OPEN MIND seeing as loads of people simply want to learn about only the stuff they agree with so they get caught in traps of group think. I am not saying you are susceptible to this, the fact you found the Doomstead Diner is proof enough that you are capable of thinking for yourself and not believing all the BS that is fed down your throat through the mainstream media. It just an issue that afflicts many people including highly intelligent people.

Oh and I am no padawan of RE at least not yet. I am not even sure if he teaches the force to younglings to protect them from the evil empire.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 25, 2012, 07:08:50 AM
Correct, good work, and were the currency not convertible into gold they would own a disproportionate share of that, and of course do. What else is new?

I think this issue should not simply be dismissed out of hand. Today issues of inequality are causing a lot of social unrest and distrust between various members of society. It has been shown that the higher the level of inequality present in society the more distrustful it becomes. As a result of this distrust often there is less empathy for other people and more crime or social tensions. If we move to a system that various gold then it is quite likely the existing inequalities we see today will increase further which will only serve to exacerbate existing problems even more. As the collapse unfolds then have nots will become increasingly bitter and reckless and they will target the haves with that much more vigor. If gold increases the gap between the rich and poor then it is likely the conflict between the two will be even greater.

Finally as another point large inequalities are not favourable from an marcoeconomic standpoint. If a smaller percentage of people have all the monetary wealth then there will be less transactions in the economy than if a larger population had access to the same wealth. This is because the richer people are more likely to save (hoard) a larger percentage of their money (in this case gold) than poorer people. The poorer people will spend a larger percentage of their money more quickly to meet their basic needs. If there are more transactions the economy will be more healthy. In fact you could say the desire of the rich to get richer becomes self-defeating if taken far enough. The issue of gold could make this dynamic even worse... With that said, it is not bad if the individual does it but you just need to see that if everyone had this mentality it would be a negative to society.   


Right again Monsta, a hat trick, the Zombies are going to come after me for my tungsten filled gold and let you and you paper money stash stay at home with your hoards of canned goods and Twinkies, and let you continue watching the three stooges on TV until Doomsday goes bye bye.

Thanks for your help,  I am going our right now and get rid of my gold for a briefcase full of fiat so the Zombies don't get me.

Just because there is a large risk of gold confiscation it does not mean that gold should be abandoned. What I was trying to get at is if someone should invest in gold to protect their wealth and the consequences of collapse, then they need to address the issue that governments or people will try to take this gold away from them. Historically this been the case so it seems a little foolish to believe it won't happen again. If you are going to get gold then you need to make some plans to ensure the government or wondering hoards will not steal the precious gold you spent so much time aquiring. It is not a insurmountable problem but it is something that needs to be addressed and you need to consider the ways it can be stolen. Failure to do so could mean all that gold you accumulated would be for nought which would be a shame.

There is a point that is truly astounding and so insightful. Did you really think that one up on your own or are you a former student of RE?  Such wisdom from a young man has me suspicious.

I did not think of that point on my own. A lot of my ideas just come as a result of reading various sources throughout my life and applying common sense to determine whether the source has merit or is bogus. The internet is a vast place with a wealth of knowledge and people can learn much if they took the time to learn. Oh and I should say learn with an OPEN MIND seeing as loads of people simply want to learn about only the stuff they agree with so they get caught in traps of group think. I am not saying you are susceptible to this, the fact you found the Doomstead Diner is proof enough that you are capable of thinking for yourself and not believing all the BS that is fed down your throat through the mainstream media. It just an issue that afflicts many people including highly intelligent people.

Oh and I am no padawan of RE at least not yet. I am not even sure if he teaches the force to younglings to protect them from the evil empire.

Monsta you are essentially dismissing out of hand that Inequality exists, has always existed and always at the macro level, as well as at the individual level also. If an individual was as idealistic and altruistic as you suggest then they would not even be able to pay their internet bill.

Essentially you are saying greed is bad? Success and keeping fruit of success is bad, and bad for the economy to boot, yet a strong economy is a good thing despite it allowing for wealth creation which is uneven and evil?

IN relation to gold this only makes sense if you hope that fiat money devalues and therefore evens the wealth inequality, therefore GO and his gold is the only one who is still wealthy having held his value, which is bad because: other wealthy people who held other assets including paer are now poor and no target for the envious and desperate, these fiat holders now  being poor are going to be zombies.

Wealthy people are bad for the economy because they dont spend all their money out of necessity like poor people. Is it possible poor prople also spend their money on drugs booze and cigarettes, also it could be possible that if the wealthy spent all their money they would no longer be wealthy?

Are you serious people like GO can adress the 16T$ deficit by increasing the velocity of money themself by spending more and that would make even a drop in the ocean in difference.

Does it not go without saying that he needs to not leave his gold out on his front porch? And what is the precaution to take to avoid confiscation by govt when you need to provide everything including a DNA sample to buy gold.  Go around buying jewellery privately, Fake ID, Just tell them you lost or spent it?

What you are saying only makes sense if you hope that the wealthy have their wealth devalued so they are just as poor as the already poor and are therefore not targeted (never mind that that mistrust and lack of empathy as you put them have never been a deterrent to anyone since money was invented). Believe it or not wealthy people take the option of paying for protection in numerous ways along with remaining wealthy as a preferable option to becoming poor just so the poor wont target them. Go to a ghettto and find them saying they are lucky to turn 21 because the poor also target each other a lot.  These poor also have a mistrust and lack of empathy to each other. The rich also have a lack of trust and empathy to each other. Nobody needs to feel responsible for the basic nature of man just because they dont want to see their lifes work go up in smoke.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 25, 2012, 01:11:38 PM
"So given this reality about the nature of gold (they can't print it out of thin air), the Treasury had to turn elsewhere to find the gold necessary (1) to keep these banks from defaulting on their bullion obligations arising from their mismatched gold books in an environment where metal had become increasingly difficult to come by and/or (2) to keep the gold price low so that the likelihood of default by the banks would be lessened, even though metal would remain tight because fabrication year after year was exceeding newly mined supply. Rather than accept the bitter pill that certain banks were about to default on their bullion obligations, the Treasury looked for alternatives and found one – they put their hand into the till, until recently known as the Gold Bullion Reserve at West Point."


http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/10/25_James_Turk_-_The_Entire_German_Gold_Hoard_Is_Gone.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/10/25_James_Turk_-_The_Entire_German_Gold_Hoard_Is_Gone.html)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 25, 2012, 01:28:56 PM
Ok, I'm not an expert, but here's my 2 cents on gold confiscation:

Gold was confiscated because it was being used as currency and hoarded (kept out of circulation) and therefore presented challenges / risks to the government / banks during a 'national emergency.'

Gold is not used as currency today. Hoarding gold does not affect current Treasury operations (see James Turk's post above). Even in 1933, people were allowed to keep certain amounts and types of gold. If you are worried about confiscation, only hold small amounts in small denominations such as 1/10 oz coins.

BTW, it's interesting that the Executive Order #6102 defines a 'person' as an individual, association OR a corporation.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Executive_Order_6102.jpg)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 25, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
 
 
Quote
Quote Jb "Gold was confiscated because it was being used as currency and hoarded (kept out of circulation) and therefore presented challenges / risks to the government / banks during a 'national emergency."

Always amazed me how the Democrats view other peoples property as theirs, to do with as they please, with no regard for private property laws or the Constitution.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 25, 2012, 02:14:50 PM
Quote
Democrats view other peoples property as theirs, to do with as they please,

Aw, c'mon GO.... really? You're smarter than this. You think a Republican, a Tory, a Canadian, or Zaphod-Beeblebrox would have done otherwise in a "national emergency?" You think everyone involved in this decision was a Democrat? What about the Americans who hoarded 'their' gold? No Republicans among them? Hmmm? Gimme a break.


(http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Zaphod-Beeblebrox-2012.jpg)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 25, 2012, 02:33:56 PM
@ Jb  I gather you thought it was the proper thing to do.

Was an unlawful act in my opinion and fortunately overturned by the courts decades later.

People are hoarding their paper money now and are fearful of spending it due to worry about their jobs, pensions, viability of Social Security etc.

Do you think Obama should take it away from them and spend it for them Jb? Or Romney for that matter.?
 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 25, 2012, 03:04:53 PM
@ Jb  I gather you thought it was the proper thing to do.

Was an unlawful act in my opinion and fortunately overturned by the courts decades later.

People are hoarding their paper money now and are fearful of spending it due to worry about their jobs, pensions, viability of Social Security etc.

Do you think Obama should take it away from them and spend it for them Jb? Or Romney for that
matter.?


2 loosely related points,

Hitler confiscated and stole gold anywhere and everywhere he could, first within Germany, then Poland, Holland etc to finance buying weapons.

Not all money is being hoarded, a lot belonging to big playersis sloshing around looking for safe havens as these are shrinking, and of course a lot going into gold.


Title: Economics & Moral Philosophy
Post by: RE on October 26, 2012, 02:42:32 AM
Economics & Moral Philosophy (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/10/26/economics-moral-philosophy/) by Brian Davey now UP on the Diner Blog.

This is a Guest Post published unde Creative Commons Licensing.

I added this post earlier in the thread here to try to get the discussion going on what represents REAL VALUE and how Economic Systems derive from that, but sadly nobody really looked at this in detail.

I will publish here also some other of Brian Davey's material, which overall demonstrates why the Gold Argument does not really work.  Value and Monetary systems which derive from perceptions of value are far more complex than simply attributing Everlasting Value to a Metal on Faith.

I present the material here for the readers to grasp on their own, the concepts are not understood or even acknowledged by Gold Bugs, so you cannot have a reasonable discussion with them about such things.  If you have an Open Mind though, you probably will be able to see why the Gold Bug arguments do not address the fundamental questions of Money and Value that Brian Davey explores in detail.  This analysis provides a much deeper understanding of how Economic systems develop and what Money really IS than Gold Bugs will even address.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on October 26, 2012, 05:33:52 AM
Quote
@ Jb  I gather you thought it was the proper thing to do.

I have absolutely no idea what the President should or should not have done in 1933 during a 'national emergency.' But I will say this: I think removal of the gold standard was inevitable.

As an independent voter, I could care less who gets elected. Neither of them can print oil or suck CO2 out of the atmosphere. Neither Obama nor Romney has the moral courage befitting the Office of the President. That Obama has followed the same path laid out by Bush/Cheney tells me everything I need to know.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 26, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
Quote
But I will say this: I think removal of the gold standard was inevitable.

I was taught the only things inevitable were Death and Taxes Jb.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on October 26, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
Quote
But I will say this: I think removal of the gold standard was inevitable.

I was taught the only things inevitable were Death and Taxes Jb.
But isn't inflation a form of stealth tax? Governments and private enterprises have a recurring habit of spending beyond their means and since they abhor the discipline imposed by gold, they will seek ways of undermining or even eliminating the gold standard and once removed it becomes a form of hidden tax imposed by the ones in power to its citizens. This insidious process of recurring high inflation can be seen in this diagram below:

(https://images3-focus-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/zPkTItOXuN0/hqdefault.jpg&container=focus&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*&refresh=31536000&resize_w=497)

Or to put more simply:















=


1913




2012

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii162/monsta666/bill_washington.jpg)

=

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii162/monsta666/how_100dollar_bill_640_03.jpg)

1913


2012
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 26, 2012, 03:51:59 PM
Quote
But isn't inflation a form of stealth tax? Governments and private enterprises have a recurring habit of spending beyond their means and since they abhor the discipline imposed by gold, they will seek ways of undermining or even eliminating the gold standard and once removed it becomes a form of hidden tax imposed by the ones in power to its citizens. This insidious process of recurring high inflation can be seen in this diagram below:
                        :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

Now your talking sense Monsta. Bulls Eye. Great Chart as Well.   

Us gold certificate 1922
Us gold certificate 1922

Mad Money
Mad Money
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on October 26, 2012, 04:35:53 PM
Quote
But isn't inflation a form of stealth tax? Governments and private enterprises have a recurring habit of spending beyond their means and since they abhor the discipline imposed by gold, they will seek ways of undermining or even eliminating the gold standard and once removed it becomes a form of hidden tax imposed by the ones in power to its citizens. This insidious process of recurring high inflation can be seen in this diagram below:
                        :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

Now your talking sense Monsta. Bulls Eye. Great Chart as Well.   






Us gold certificate 1922
Us gold certificate 1922

Mad Money
Mad Money


All true monsta, consider also, govt is more wasteful than private enterprise by far, but always keep themselves regular payrises to keep pace with inflation. Large private enterprise overspends in expanding and upgrading on the TBTF model. Small business not so, only upgrade and expand cautiously mostly.

Im beginning to see just how hard it is for anything to pay for itself, not just the cars that Steve from econ undertow rails against. Almost everything moves along the line of increasing debt, and govt greed contributes hugely to making things unprofitable.
Title: Re: Economics & Moral Philosophy
Post by: monsta666 on October 26, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Monsta you are essentially dismissing out of hand that Inequality exists, has always existed and always at the macro level, as well as at the individual level also. If an individual was as idealistic and altruistic as you suggest then they would not even be able to pay their internet bill.

Essentially you are saying greed is bad? Success and keeping fruit of success is bad, and bad for the economy to boot, yet a strong economy is a good thing despite it allowing for wealth creation which is uneven and evil?

IN relation to gold this only makes sense if you hope that fiat money devalues and therefore evens the wealth inequality, therefore GO and his gold is the only one who is still wealthy having held his value, which is bad because: other wealthy people who held other assets including paer are now poor and no target for the envious and desperate, these fiat holders now  being poor are going to be zombies.

Wealthy people are bad for the economy because they dont spend all their money out of necessity like poor people. Is it possible poor prople also spend their money on drugs booze and cigarettes, also it could be possible that if the wealthy spent all their money they would no longer be wealthy?

Are you serious people like GO can adress the 16T$ deficit by increasing the velocity of money themself by spending more and that would make even a drop in the ocean in difference.

Does it not go without saying that he needs to not leave his gold out on his front porch? And what is the precaution to take to avoid confiscation by govt when you need to provide everything including a DNA sample to buy gold.  Go around buying jewellery privately, Fake ID, Just tell them you lost or spent it?

What you are saying only makes sense if you hope that the wealthy have their wealth devalued so they are just as poor as the already poor and are therefore not targeted (never mind that that mistrust and lack of empathy as you put them have never been a deterrent to anyone since money was invented). Believe it or not wealthy people take the option of paying for protection in numerous ways along with remaining wealthy as a preferable option to becoming poor just so the poor wont target them. Go to a ghettto and find them saying they are lucky to turn 21 because the poor also target each other a lot.  These poor also have a mistrust and lack of empathy to each other. The rich also have a lack of trust and empathy to each other. Nobody needs to feel responsible for the basic nature of man just because they dont want to see their lifes work go up in smoke.

My main argument was to say that inequality - if taken to an extreme - is detrimental at a social/moral and economic level. I am not against inequality and some of it is needed as it MUST be acknowledged that some members of society are more productive and useful than others. Such work must be rewarded otherwise there will be little/no incentive to providing a good standard of work or improving standards. Inequality must exist and in any case it will always exist whether we like it or not. However just because it exists it does mean there are no limits to inequality. After a certain point the potential benefits of inequality (incentives to provide good work/improving standards) are outweighed by the detrimental effects such as (rampant greed, corruption, social mistrust, less empathy). My main fear and the reason for my original comment was that I feel that we are already nearing the point where more inequality will cause more problems than it solves. A move towards a gold standard in my opinion would likely create even more inequality and this great divide can result in the final collapse becoming more bloody and bitter than it would otherwise be.

As for tackling the $16 trillion debt ($1 trillion+ deficit) that cannot be solved in a world of declining net energy without major defaults or hyperinflation down the line. Increasing the velocity of money while helpful will not be enough to solve this debt problem. However if one were to try and solve a surmountable debt problem then increasing the velocity of money would be something that would be beneficial. The rich in any case will often become richer in the long run if they gave some of that wealth to the poorer people because they would then spend that money on goods and services which would create more businesses and prosperity and that money would then be used to further investments in production leading to greater outputs. This rampant greed is actually self-defeating. The biggest issue of this recession is lack of demand. Now this lack of demand comes about because of declining net energy but if we were to put on our economic hats on then the solution (if one existed) is to find a means of increasing aggregate demand.

Okay, I am not saying all that money the poor spend will be beneficial or productive for the economy but I would say a bigger percentage of the total money would go to productive means. This makes the assumption that the wealth disparities are quite large. If there is relative equality then the issue becomes more muddy and debatable.

Economics & Moral Philosophy (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/10/26/economics-moral-philosophy/) by Brian Davey now UP on the Diner Blog.

This is a Guest Post published unde Creative Commons Licensing.

I added this post earlier in the thread here to try to get the discussion going on what represents REAL VALUE and how Economic Systems derive from that, but sadly nobody really looked at this in detail.

I will publish here also some other of Brian Davey's material, which overall demonstrates why the Gold Argument does not really work.  Value and Monetary systems which derive from perceptions of value are far more complex than simply attributing Everlasting Value to a Metal on Faith.

I present the material here for the readers to grasp on their own, the concepts are not understood or even acknowledged by Gold Bugs, so you cannot have a reasonable discussion with them about such things.  If you have an Open Mind though, you probably will be able to see why the Gold Bug arguments do not address the fundamental questions of Money and Value that Brian Davey explores in detail.  This analysis provides a much deeper understanding of how Economic systems develop and what Money really IS than Gold Bugs will even address.

RE

That is a great article, and I would recommend others to read it as well. While there is nothing actually new in the article for me, it has summarised things nicely and can be easily grasped by anyone non-economists included. In fact I think it is a type of article that is particularly useful to non-economists and I liked how it laid out the outlandish assumptions.

In fairness to some economists, my econ teacher did highlight some of these facts. During my GCSEs (GCSE is the British equivalent to SATS in the US) my economist teacher did highlight the fact these assumptions of perfect information, rational behaviour and maximization do not often occur in real life. Furthermore when it comes to things such as equilibriums he also mentioned the fact that in reality, unlike what is described in economics textbooks is that there can be more than one optimal price for demand or supply of goods. If true, such things as market equilibriums fall apart. He also did mention or hint at fractional reserve banking although I do recall he said and I quote: "that 99% of all money is not real, well maybe it is 98% around Christmas when people are more likely than usual decide to take their money out."

With that said, stuff like history was never taught even at higher levels and that has been a major blind-spot in economists as this ignorance will condemn them to making the same mistakes of the past. In fact, all the stuff about economic history is something that has to be self-taught. The issues of how goods and services are allocated is also a good issue raised. The price of obtaining and pricing of goods is determined by who controls the factors of production and the means of wealth distribution is not solely determined by productivity as commonly suggested but my who has the most influence in commanding various said resources. This final point is an important one, for it is often argued that the inequality that exists today is just because the inequality is a reflection of how productive each citizen is to society. If they are 10 times more productive then they deserve 10 times more pay. In reality productivity does not solely determine worth, the fact that US worker productivity has risen while wages have remained stagnant in real terms is testament to this fact. I found Steve Keen describes this rather well in his book of Debunking Economics.

The most important fact, or blind-spot is the first points made in this article that modern economics has become a study of intermediate means to intermediate ends. When in fact the subject matter would be much more worthwhile and complete if it studied the ultimate means to the ultimate ends. The failure of modern economists to acknowledge the connection between natural resources and production has played a large part in this madness of perpetual economic growth. This ignorance coupled with the maxim that greed is good will lead to the downfall of modern industrial society.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News/Could this be a problem?
Post by: Surly1 on October 29, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
In the wake of the counterfeiting stories... this couldn't end badly, could it?

http://rt.com/business/news/germany-gold-reserves-check-472/ (http://rt.com/business/news/germany-gold-reserves-check-472/)

Germany orders a check on its gold reserves
Get short URL
Link copied to clipboard
email story to a friend print version

Published: 29 October, 2012, 15:15


German federal auditors have requested the Bundesbank checks Germany’s gold reserves, a major part of which has been stored at banks abroad since the Cold War.

­Germany’s gold bars, stored in the United States, Britain and France "have never been physically checked by the Bundesbank itself, or other independent auditors, regarding their authenticity or weight," reveals a report prepared by the Federal Auditors' Office. Instead, the Bundesbank relies on a "written confirmation by the storage sites."

Germany has placed as much as some 3,400 tons of gold worth an estimated $190 billion at current values in the vaults of the US Federal Reserve, the Bank of France and the Bank of England since the late 1940s. The reason was to secure the country’s gold reserves in a case of a possible war with the Soviet bloc. Currently only about 30% of Germany’s gold reserves are kept in Germany, at the facilities of Frankfurt-based Bundesbank.

Since then, the Bundesbank has seen no reason to check its gold reserves. "There is no doubt about the integrity of the foreign storage sites in this regard," it said in a statement.

Concerns about Germany’s gold reserves arose this year after a group of German federal lawmakers wanted to check gold bars stored at the Banque de France in Paris. But they were turned away by local officials who said there were no facilities to visit the vaults, Deutsche Welle reported.

German worries about the situation with its gold reserves reflect the worries of the German politicians that the country has enough gold reserves to resist the spreading eurozone crisis.

The Bundesbank has reportedly decided to ship 150 tons of gold from the New York Federal Reserve to Germany, according to German daily Bild. After returning to Germany the gold will be melted down to test the overall purity of each consignment before being re-cast into standard gold bars.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on October 31, 2012, 10:32:25 AM
Past practice, we'll see a whole bunch of fresh liquidity/debt issued to "aid the Sandy recovery."  Call it whatever you want, it's been a cover story they've used for years.  That hot money will find its way to Au.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on October 31, 2012, 07:02:55 PM
Past practice, we'll see a whole bunch of fresh liquidity/debt issued to "aid the Sandy recovery."  Call it whatever you want, it's been a cover story they've used for years.  That hot money will find its way to Au.

Right on widgeon, my view as well. Bernanke must have his foot all the way down on the gas pedal after this horror.

Just what the economy needed for the Holiday season lift, a damaged infrastructure.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: POMO Fed Permanent Open Market Operation Explained
Post by: g on November 09, 2012, 12:54:04 AM
 :icon_study:

                                    http://www.youtube.com/v/Ibxw95ZC97I&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on November 09, 2012, 10:11:39 AM
If Max Keiser's expectations pan out this is going to be EPIC.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on November 09, 2012, 10:17:29 AM
"The Bernank"

That never ceases to be phunny.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Thracian Gold Treasure Discovered in Bulgaria
Post by: g on November 11, 2012, 03:48:24 AM
From National Geographic Gold Treasure found 2400 Years Old

Toothsome Treasure

                                               
thracian gold bulgaria horse 61089 600x450
thracian gold bulgaria horse 61089 600x450

A golden horse head—an ornament from one end of a long-gone iron horse bit—is part of a 2,400-year-old treasure recently discovered in an ancient Thracian tomb in Sveshtari, Bulgaria, archaeologists announced Thursday.

The Thracians were ruled by a warrior aristocracy that had access to plentiful gold deposits at the mouth of the Danube River, which contained one of the largest ancient supplies of the metal. They enjoyed a vibrant trade with their neighbors, including the Scythians to the north, and the Greeks to the south—a fact reflected in Thracian art.

"The styles that have been found in Thracian art and Thracian gold represent a mix of Scythian, Greek, and Macedonian cultures, and of course Thracian culture itself," said U.S. archaeologist and National Geographic fellow Fredrik Hiebert, who was not involved in the discovery.

Bulgaria has a long history of gold metallurgy. "There are sites on the Bulgarian coast that are literally thousands of years older than any other culture that used gold in a ritual fashion," Hiebert said.

                                                           
thracian gold bulgaria face 61088 600x450
thracian gold bulgaria face 61088 600x450

                                 
gold cache  preserved torc 34022 600x450
gold cache  preserved torc 34022 600x450

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/11/pictures/121109-thracian-gold-hoard-treasure-bulgaria-science/#
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Chinese Central Bank Official Says Buy More Gold
Post by: g on November 12, 2012, 04:51:30 AM
 
A little comment on Mr. Zhang from the Peoples Bank . It comes as no surprise that China in the last 12 months from August 2011 through August 2012 decreased their ownership of US treasury securities from $1.278 trillion to$1.153 trillion. This represents a decline of about 10% according to the US Treasury.

Then on November 8, 2012 Zhang Jianhua, an official of the Peoples Bank of China (the Chinese central bank), stated "The Chinese government should not only be cautious of the imported risk caused by rising global inflation, but also further optimize its foreign exchange portfolio and purchase gold assets when the gold price shows a favorable fluctuation."

Our translation of his central banker speak is… China should buy gold on price declines and not buy so many foreign currency bonds.

We strongly agree with Mr. Zhang. Clearly he knows that there is continued global inflation ahead.

Love to you and the family,

Monty Guild
www.GuildInvestment.com (http://www.GuildInvestment.com)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News GOLD BUG ALERT! Erdoğan Shift From Dollar To Gold
Post by: g on November 13, 2012, 12:09:59 PM
Expecting this notion to get some some much deserved attention.  :emthup: :emthup:

During his stay in Indonesia, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan brought up an interesting suggestion for the International Monetary Fund.

Stating that although IMF assistance may appear to be a prescription for some nations, in fact quite the opposite, the fund has often caused serious problems for countries in trouble, Erdoğan asks why it is that the fund uses dollars instead of gold.

Expressing that he doesn't feel it is right for the IMF to act according to one nation's currency, Erdoğan states, "The IMF extends aid on a who, where, how and on what conditions bases. For example, if the IMF is under the influence of any single currency then what, are they going rule the world based on the exchange rates of that particular currency?

Why do we not switch then to a monetary unit such as gold, which is at the very least an international constant and indicator which has maintained its honor throughout history. This is something to think about."

IT IS IMPERATIVE THE IMF AND OECD CHANGE

Explaining that Turkey had to pay a heavy price for the agreement they made with the IMF, Erdoğan stated, "We have not made a stand-by agreement for the past three periods. In April, we will have zeroed out our debt completely and we have no intentions of working with the IMF again."

Prime Minister Erdoğan went on to state: "One would hope that the IMF would help countries in trouble, however at present this is not the case. This is what we need to achieve."

Erdoğan also said he believed the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, the Organization for Security and Co-operation n Europe (OSCE) and the Organization for Co-operation and Development (OECD) need to all undergo a reform.

english.sabah.com.tr/economy/2012/11/10/erdogan-suggests-shift-from-dollar-to-gold     :icon_study: :icon_study:

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan states that instead of ruling the world under the pressure of the dollar the IMF should switch to using gold.
                             
                                 
488715009107
488715009107




Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on November 13, 2012, 02:06:17 PM
IMF's purpose is to enslave, not to help.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 13, 2012, 05:15:16 PM
IMF's purpose is to enslave, not to help.

They sure seem to create the misery suffering solution to financial problems, and favor the lender over the borrower, never seeming to ask, why did you continue lending to someone who could never pay?

Looking for Gold, sound honest money, to appear out of the paper rubble and restore sanity and confidence to a world gone mad with fiat.

The Turkish premier made much sense and spoke truth in my opinion which can be the building of a strong base of support with such a strong foundation.   "Gold Will Win"
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on November 13, 2012, 05:41:10 PM
I wonder if Turkey can really avoid IMF loans in future, they have been included as part of Europe financially and NATO but are realy part of the middle east, they are very important strategically as a large area frontier to both middle east and old soviet bloc central asia/eastern europe. Accepting being part of Europe and part of NATO has meant a big military beyond their means. Maybe it has something to do with  tradition and pride of being the former Ottoman empire, good on him for speaking out anyway.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 13, 2012, 06:06:44 PM
I wonder if Turkey can really avoid IMF loans in future, they have been included as part of Europe financially and NATO but are realy part of the middle east, they are very important strategically as a large area frontier to both middle east and old soviet bloc central asia/eastern europe. Accepting being part of Europe and part of NATO has meant a big military beyond their means. Maybe it has something to do with  tradition and pride of being the former Ottoman empire, good on him for speaking out anyway.

Yes, Good for him Unc, speaking the truth always is worthy of praise.

His statement  "Why do we not switch then to a monetary unit such as gold, which is at the very least an international constant and indicator which has maintained its HONOR throughout history. This is something to think about." made my day.

Not gold bug talk, but the words of a government leader outside our small gold community, has filled me with hope that gold is at last being seen as the solution to our financial problem, much as it's abandonment was the cause of the paper debt Frankenstein stalking the earth recently. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bart Chilton Appears To Be Trying To Rid the Odor
Post by: g on November 14, 2012, 06:41:24 AM
The judge squashing everything a day before was heartbreaking and spoke volumes to me about our legal system!

http://www.youtube.com/v/eMux5ty90g0&fs=1

  :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Prison of Debt Paralyzes West, Playing Poker w Trillions
Post by: g on November 19, 2012, 04:11:41 AM

 Creating Money out of Thin Air

Until 1971, gold was the benchmark of the US dollar, with one ounce of pure gold corresponding to $35, and the dollar was the fixed benchmark of all Western currencies. But when the United States began to need more and more dollars for the Vietnam War, and the global economy grew so quickly that using gold as a benchmark became a constraint, countries abandoned the system of fixed exchange rates. A new phase of the global economy began, and two processes were set in motion: the liberation of the financial markets from limited money supplies, which was mostly beneficial; and the liberation of countries from limited revenues, which was mostly detrimental. This money bubble continued to inflate for four decades, as central banks were able to create money out of thin air, banks were able to provide seemingly unlimited credit, and consumers and governments were able to go into debt without restraint.

This continued until the biggest credit bubble in history began to burst: first in the United States, because banks had bundled the mortgages of millions of Americans, whose only asset was a house bought on credit, into worthless securities; then around the globe, because banks had foisted these securities onto customers in many countries; and, finally, when these banks began to totter, debt-ridden countries turned private debt into public debt until they too began to totter, and could only borrow money from banks at even higher interest rates than before.

At the moment, the world has only one approach to getting out of this labyrinth of debt: incurring trillions in additional debt.   :icon_study:

image 426133 galleryV9 dqjk
image 426133 galleryV9 dqjk
 


www.spiegel.de/international/business/playing-poker-with-trillions-a-prison-of-debt-on-both-sides-of-the-atlantic-a-867404.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/playing-poker-with-trillions-a-prison-of-debt-on-both-sides-of-the-atlantic-a-867404.html)     :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: We Have a Shortage of Gold-Eric Sprott
Post by: g on November 20, 2012, 05:57:03 AM
Sprott claims the central bank gold isn't there.   :Thinkingof_:

                http://www.youtube.com/v/gk600gFnlrk&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: A Currency War Simulation Jim Rickards
Post by: g on November 22, 2012, 07:13:02 AM
In this video, Jim Rickards offers a play-by-play war game simulation involving China's use of derivatives in securing large amounts of gold, a collapse of the euro, and a move by Iran to close the Strait of Hormuz.  :icon_study:

                        http://www.youtube.com/v/kdPkaCTdxBU&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on November 22, 2012, 08:43:38 AM
scary stuff, GO. It just never mentioned a wider miltary as well as financial war. I think a war with iran and israel will happen by may at the latest and march at the earliest, thats going to put the price of oil up double and that will be it, a blow that never gets recovered in the world economy. after that I just dont know but you can see what they are preparing for. Im sure in any case if you have not sold off and liquidated all assets before then it will be too late.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 22, 2012, 09:40:58 AM
scary stuff, GO. It just never mentioned a wider miltary as well as financial war. I think a war with iran and israel will happen by may at the latest and march at the earliest, thats going to put the price of oil up double and that will be it, a blow that never gets recovered in the world economy. after that I just dont know but you can see what they are preparing for. Im sure in any case if you have not sold off and liquidated all assets before then it will be too late.

It sure is frightening stuff Unc, got me thinking today about Ka's theory of a big time engineered smack down. I live in constant fear now after 9/11 and all the subsequent Patriot act horrors they have done to us.

I woke up one morning last year with my money stolen from a primary Government dealer MF global, it taught me how easily and how fast you can be wiped out by these vermin, liquidating doesn't even solve the problem anymore, they will steal your cash balances, and if that doesn't work issue a new currency and declare yours as no good and illegal. Peter is correct when he says they have all the bases covered. It is all very depressing and most disheartening, we are like cattle waiting to be sent to the slaughter house.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on November 22, 2012, 01:00:48 PM
I woke up one morning last year with my money stolen from a primary Government dealer MF global, it taught me how easily and how fast you can be wiped out by these vermin, liquidating doesn't even solve the problem anymore, they will steal your cash balances, and if that doesn't work issue a new currency and declare yours as no good and illegal. Peter is correct when he says they have all the bases covered. It is all very depressing and most disheartening, we are like cattle waiting to be sent to the slaughter house.

I am sorry to hear that Golden Oxen. It makes you that the powers that be can really defraud the masses from any investment even that of gold. It is not impossible to protect yourself perhaps but you really do have to be careful. I am hopeful that some justice will come in time.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 22, 2012, 02:54:16 PM
The solution is to live as off the Money Economy as you can, then TPTB can't steal from you because you have nothing to steal.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on November 22, 2012, 04:43:21 PM

I woke up one morning last year with my money stolen from a primary Government dealer MF global, it taught me how easily and how fast you can be wiped out by these vermin, liquidating doesn't even solve the problem anymore, they will steal your cash balances, and if that doesn't work issue a new currency and declare yours as no good and illegal. Peter is correct when he says they have all the bases covered. It is all very depressing and most disheartening, we are like cattle waiting to be sent to the slaughter house.


Ah I see, Im afraid this explains something extremely frustrating for me. I would say you are probably about the same generation roughly as my father hes 63, the "silents" first boomers as RE calls them and as unshakably cornucopian as an ostrich, Just as RE has characterised and classified them. The difference between you and him is it simply has not happened yet to him but will.

No matter what I say there is some dismissive answer. Two days ago I told him they are planning to Increase the death/inheritance tax from 35% to 55% in the US and lower the exemption from 5m$ to 1m$. He said they will just quickly hand over the properties before the legislation comes into force, and they will get lawyers to deal with it.  I said Farmers and family businessses hit by the drought and depression do not have spare change of 35% of their value, and lawyers always leave you broker than ever.

This all falls on deaf ears literally. I have told him he needs to get a hearing aid, you must shout for him and then because he can not hear himself he often mumbles, but he ignores that too, even though hes still working as an engineer in contact with people all the time, prefacing everything with "Ehhh?" lol. Borrowing to the max on useless ventures means he has to work until he dies.

Just yetserday I had to remind him that I had no excess left over and taken a huge loss from the sale of the last property I sold which finalizes in about a week. Ive told him to forget any stupid stalled developments and just sell out while there is still value in some assets (the ones I found and managed and worked on) even though they are slowly going down about 5% a year. I have said just get out of debt and buy gold, but no. Others have noticed that after every such conversation about collapse he goes and has a smoke. Anyway just one more story of someone insisting everything will be fine come hell or high water until you get hit by the truck.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 22, 2012, 06:54:53 PM
The solution is to live as off the Money Economy as you can, then TPTB can't steal from you because you have nothing to steal.

RE

You are probably correct in theory, but in my current situation I would rather have something to steal rather than nothing to steal. It's a bad enough world to deal in with plenty of dough, I sure would hate to wake up in the morning without any, it would be a lot crueler and a lot colder, at least for the present.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 22, 2012, 07:54:54 PM
Quote
Ah I see, Im afraid this explains something extremely frustrating for me. I would say you are probably about the same generation roughly as my father hes 63, the "silents" first boomers as RE calls them and as unshakably cornucopian as an ostrich, Just as RE has characterised and classified them. The difference between you and him is it simply has not happened yet to him but will.

Yes Unc, In the same age group as your dad, but have been a Doomer since my early twenties. Doom is an old business for me having had the pleasure to become acquainted with the works of C V Myers, Dr Franz Pick, William H Tehan and many others of their ilk while a teenager.

Vern Myers had the most influence on me and I am indebted to him for all he has taught me. Myer's was actually placed in prison in Canada for instigating public fear and warning of a banking collapse, which of course happened. The judge finally let him go remarking that he had received letters of praise of Myers and condemnation of his imprisonment from well intentioned people around the globe, it is astounding the judge said, the number of devoted followers you have. It was a proud day for me when Vern got released as I had been one of the many who wrote the court. 

The thing that shocked me about my loss at MF Global was the ease at which it was stolen. The just went into my account, stole the money, laughed in my face, and I can still see Corzine grinning. The surprise was the ease, not the event itself. What was particularly odious was the fact I had no positions at the time just a cash balance. There is no longer any doubt in my mind we are totally vulnerable to these pigs.

As far as your dad goes, try and understand the world appeared to be a much different place back then, the good guys always won, science cured all problems, and the government was your friend. Keep in mind also that he had the brains to bring a very smart son into the world.  :icon_sunny:



Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 22, 2012, 08:08:10 PM
Quote
Monsta666 I am sorry to hear that Golden Oxen. It makes you that the powers that be can really defraud the masses from any investment even that of gold. It is not impossible to protect yourself perhaps but you really do have to be careful. I am hopeful that some justice will come in time.

Thanks for your concern Monsta, It was  a loss I can live with. As a devoted gold bug and doomster my risks and capital are spread out not concentrated in one spot. It was however a very valuable wake up call as to how far the rot and corruption has spread. No charges have yet been filed against that Goldman Suchs pig Corzine, while they fill the prisons with pot heads and guys that write a bad check at the grocery store trying to feed their family. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on November 23, 2012, 06:46:03 AM
No charges have yet been filed against that Goldman Suchs pig Corzine, while they fill the prisons with pot heads and guys that write a bad check at the grocery store trying to feed their family.

No surprise that a top Obama fundraiser skates on mega grand theft. 

The fact he's still alive though means all the mafias are working for the same boss.  Otherwise, considering the caliber of the people he ripped off, one family or another would have arranged his "confirmation" by now.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 23, 2012, 07:31:07 AM
No charges have yet been filed against that Goldman Suchs pig Corzine, while they fill the prisons with pot heads and guys that write a bad check at the grocery store trying to feed their family.

No surprise that a top Obama fundraiser skates on mega grand theft. 

The fact he's still alive though means all the mafias are working for the same boss.  Otherwise, considering the caliber of the people he ripped off, one family or another would have arranged his "confirmation" by now.

He is definitely protected, but the mafia has been known to act when things quiet down on occasion. They have very long memories. Remember Vito's visit to Don Ciccio.

             http://www.youtube.com/v/gCdXiOssbM0&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: widgeon on November 23, 2012, 09:20:19 AM
Sandy 'money' finding a home today.  BoJ has also used the circumstances to pour out more debt/QE also.  Nikkei up about 10% in 3 weeks - LOL.  Maybe if the poison the other 1/2 of the country they can get a 25% stock market increase.  Lot's of fresh digi-dollars in play.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Brazil Boosts Gold Reserves to the Highest in More Than
Post by: g on November 24, 2012, 03:13:53 AM
Brazil Boosts Gold Reserves to the Highest in More Than 11 Years  :icon_study:

 
Brazil raised its gold reserves for a second month in October to the highest level in more than 11 years as emerging nations from Kazakhstan to Russia boosted holdings by more than 40 metric tons.

Brazil’s holdings expanded 17.2 tons last month to 52.5 tons, the most since January 2001, according to data on the International Monetary Fund’s website. The country’s 1.7-ton purchase in September was the first since December 2008. Kazakhstan’s holdings increased 7.5 tons, Russia added 0.4 ton and Turkey’s reserves rose 17.5 tons, the data show. Germany, the second-biggest holder, after the U.S., cut gold holdings by 4.2 tons, the first reduction since June.

“This is a chunky purchase by a central bank, and the gold market will likely sit up and pay attention,” Edel Tully, an analyst at UBS AG in London, wrote today in a report, referring to Brazil’s addition. “Today’s news confirms much of the market chatter at the time that official sector buying was taking place and was one of the key factors that gave prices a reasonable floor last month.”  :icon_study: :icon_study:

www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-21/brazil-boosts-gold-reserves-to-the-highest-in-more-than-11-years.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-21/brazil-boosts-gold-reserves-to-the-highest-in-more-than-11-years.html) :Thinkingof_:

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Godfrey Bloom MEP on Germany's 'Golden Opportunity'
Post by: g on November 24, 2012, 03:35:38 AM
 
Episode 73: GoldMoney's Andy Duncan talks to Godfrey Bloom, who represents Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire in the European Parliament, and who is a member of the parliament's Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs. They talk about the possibility of Germany instituting a gold-backed Deutschmark, and broader issues to do with European monetary and fiscal policy.

In a recent Mises.org daily article co-authored with Patrick Barron, Mr Bloom states that Germany now has a "Golden Opportunity" to get back to sound money by pulling out of the euro and introducing a gold-backed Deutschmark. However, given the lack of a comprehensive audit, suspicions about the integrity of the German gold reserves remain. Bloom therefore advocates that Germany should repatriate its physical gold from the storage locations abroad.

They also talk about monetary policies of the European Union, the errors of European politicians and whether or not the eurozone can be sustained. In addition, they also discuss Britain's relationship with the EU and Britain's own precarious financial position, particularly in relation to its welfare state and deficit spending.

This podcast was recorded on 21 November 2012.

              http://www.youtube.com/v/8Yez8xdoH2A&fs=1
Title: Gold Bug Heartburn
Post by: RE on November 26, 2012, 04:33:15 PM
Some charts to give the Gold Bugs Heartburn from Chartist Friend from Pittsburgh.

RE

Deconstructing The Price Of Gold - Gold Bugs Better Sit Down For This One (http://chartistfriendfrompittsburgh.blogspot.com/2012/11/deconstructing-price-of-gold-gold-bugs.html)

[BLOCKQUOTE](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FYn8awUSqWU/ULPIaaN34yI/AAAAAAAAYVc/JNG6D9f3oIw/s1600/121126-E.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FYn8awUSqWU/ULPIaaN34yI/AAAAAAAAYVc/JNG6D9f3oIw/s1600/121126-E.png)
Gold has had a huge run over the past decade. I distinctly remember becoming a full-fledged gold bug in January 2001. I had witnessed the NASDAQ collapse and figured as people lost confidence in paper forms of wealth, precious metals would be the prime beneficiary of that trend of disillusionment. (Little did I know the Fed had a few more tricks up its sleeve.)

Well, we all know what happened to the price of gold since then. It has exploded higher by a factor of seven. But once the price action began to recently resemble what I saw happen to tech stocks in the late 90's and sentiment became so absurdly optimistic that retards like Turd Ferguson and his kindergarten level charts could attract a following, I knew it was time to take an objective and realistic technical look at the yellow metal.

Here's what I found: the real top in the price of gold occurred in early 1980, and all of the price action since then has been either trending lower or correcting higher. That's right, perma-gold bugs and Turdites, the real top in the price of gold occurred over thirty years ago, and for all intensive technical purposes it's been all downhill since then.

Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself...


 (http://<A)

[BLOCKQUOTE](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bDcvvIcKBHE/ULPK1GgUGFI/AAAAAAAAYVo/MgFzEQGRcfo/s1600/121126-F.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bDcvvIcKBHE/ULPK1GgUGFI/AAAAAAAAYVo/MgFzEQGRcfo/s1600/121126-F.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oeSD2KQT6NU/ULPLr4PaxJI/AAAAAAAAYWQ/3nB6_QXkDbA/s1600/121126-G.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oeSD2KQT6NU/ULPLr4PaxJI/AAAAAAAAYWQ/3nB6_QXkDbA/s1600/121126-G.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dwSg5JKV1ek/ULPLwIm_lJI/AAAAAAAAYWY/XzXT23mAKYo/s1600/121126-H.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dwSg5JKV1ek/ULPLwIm_lJI/AAAAAAAAYWY/XzXT23mAKYo/s1600/121126-H.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N6wLL6s-3eM/ULPL18-E7pI/AAAAAAAAYWg/IvCetT8MQ88/s1600/121126-I.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N6wLL6s-3eM/ULPL18-E7pI/AAAAAAAAYWg/IvCetT8MQ88/s1600/121126-I.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MVgntfFdyG0/ULPL50rLjFI/AAAAAAAAYWo/2FE88DVrasA/s1600/121126-J.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MVgntfFdyG0/ULPL50rLjFI/AAAAAAAAYWo/2FE88DVrasA/s1600/121126-J.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JU7yUEyK698/ULPL-CzUtfI/AAAAAAAAYWw/MTNbWbJGh9M/s1600/121126-K.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JU7yUEyK698/ULPL-CzUtfI/AAAAAAAAYWw/MTNbWbJGh9M/s1600/121126-K.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xINZ1N5T6bw/ULPMCkonVRI/AAAAAAAAYW4/Dijp-Ul8Z2E/s1600/121126-L.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xINZ1N5T6bw/ULPMCkonVRI/AAAAAAAAYW4/Dijp-Ul8Z2E/s1600/121126-L.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cuLGOsxi6d8/ULPMGlx5zCI/AAAAAAAAYXA/MHYiMDo14Lg/s1600/121126-M.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cuLGOsxi6d8/ULPMGlx5zCI/AAAAAAAAYXA/MHYiMDo14Lg/s1600/121126-M.png)
[BLOCKQUOTE](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f1NMZo2T7WA/ULPMLXDIZeI/AAAAAAAAYXI/yIKOg_jbBww/s1600/121126-N.png)[/BLOCKQUOTE] (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f1NMZo2T7WA/ULPMLXDIZeI/AAAAAAAAYXI/yIKOg_jbBww/s1600/121126-N.png)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: pansceptic on November 27, 2012, 01:57:39 PM
RE, thank you for thinking about us goldbugs  ;D

That is a good collection of charts; in particular the gold/oil chart.  I'm aware that oil is probably the ultimate arbiter of wealth currently, it's just that it's very immobile while still in the ground, and so vulnerable to US "regime change" on the ground above it.  Gold is more portable and compact; nonetheless, I do own some Canadian oil producers - I think it will be a while before we have to declare Canada a sponsor of terrorist activities  ;)

I think it's worthwhile to note that the leading candidate for Prime Minister in Japan is running on a platform of printing however many Yen are necessary to produce a positive rate of inflation and weaken the Yen to help exporters.  Japan is just further down the same road as the US - currently the Fed is monetizing a mere $90 billion or so per month; it is pretty much inevitable that the Fed will eventually have to increase its balance sheet by trillions per month or have the entire ponzi collapse.  China and Russia are well aware of this...while their official gold purchase numbers are modest, they are both buying up ALL of their domestic production as well.  Medvedev has publicly stated that gold is the "money of the future", I take him at his word when they're congruent with Russian actions.

I am indeed sitting - sitting pretty (as pretty as possible for an ugly ole dude, anyway : )
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 27, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
RE, thank you for thinking about us goldbugs  ;D

That is a good collection of charts; in particular the gold/oil chart.  I'm aware that oil is probably the ultimate arbiter of wealth currently, it's just that it's very immobile while still in the ground, and so vulnerable to US "regime change" on the ground above it.  Gold is more portable and compact; nonetheless, I do own some Canadian oil producers - I think it will be a while before we have to declare Canada a sponsor of terrorist activities  ;)

I think it's worthwhile to note that the leading candidate for Prime Minister in Japan is running on a platform of printing however many Yen are necessary to produce a positive rate of inflation and weaken the Yen to help exporters.  Japan is just further down the same road as the US - currently the Fed is monetizing a mere $90 billion or so per month; it is pretty much inevitable that the Fed will eventually have to increase its balance sheet by trillions per month or have the entire ponzi collapse.  China and Russia are well aware of this...while their official gold purchase numbers are modest, they are both buying up ALL of their domestic production as well.  Medvedev has publicly stated that gold is the "money of the future", I take him at his word when they're congruent with Russian actions.

I am indeed sitting - sitting pretty (as pretty as possible for an ugly ole dude, anyway : )
Gold being the money of the future is my view as well, since it is the money of the past and present, it would appear reasonable.

The silly charts presented are always posted by gold detractors and lovers of credit and bankster money. The chart of gold going from 20 Dollars to 2000 Dollars, SO FAR, in my lifetime and the value of the dollar going to a little lower than two cents are the only charts one needs to understand Gold.

Glad your sitting pretty Pansceptic, would die from HEARTBURN if I tried to imagine where I would be sitting without my gold. I guess you would have to call me a Broke ugly ole dude if I hadn't some "Old Yeller"

  :icon_mrgreen:
GOLD
GOLD
Old Yeller is popular in China.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 27, 2012, 03:35:56 PM
Do I sniff an MF Global in the Gold Bug world?

RE

Force Majeure declared by CME Group (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1354024800.php)

CME Group declared a force majeure at one of its New York precious metals depositories yesterday, run by bullion dealer and major coin dealer Manfra, Tordella and Brooks (MTB), due to “operational limitations” posed by Hurricane Sandy.

MTB has “operational limitations” following Hurricane Sandy and can’t load gold bullion, platinum bullion or palladium bullion, CME Group Inc., the parent of the Comex and New York Mercantile Exchange, said today in a statement.

MTB must provide holders with metal at Brinks Inc. in New York to meet current outstanding warrants in relevant delivery periods with compensation for costs, Chicago-based CME said.

The CME said that MTB will not be able to deliver metal as the lower Manhattan company deals with "operational limitations" almost a month after the arrival of Hurricane Sandy.

MTB is one of five depositories licensed to deliver gold against CME's benchmark 100-troy ounce gold contract, held 29,276 troy ounces of gold and 33,000 troy ounces of palladium as of Nov. 23, according to data from CME subsidiary Comex.

In a notice to customers on Monday, CME declared force majeure for the facility, a contract clause that frees parties from liability due to an event outside of their control.

CME said that individuals holding MTB warrants or certificates for a specific lot of metal stored in the depository, may receive gold delivered from Brinks Co. (BCO) in New York. MTB is responsible for any additional costs incurred by customers receiving metal from Brinks, CME said.

"This shouldn't have a material impact on the way market participants are doing business," a CME spokesman said. "They'll still contact MTB if they want to take delivery on contracts," and MTB will arrange for delivery through Brinks according to Dow Jones Newswires.

In a notice posted to its website dated Nov. 12, MTB said the firm "sustained substantial damages" following Hurricane Sandy's arrival in New York City on Oct. 29, and had curtailed its operations.

The force majeure will remain in effect until further notice from the exchange, the CME said. The delivery period for CME's December-delivery precious metals futures begins on Friday.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 27, 2012, 03:54:37 PM
Quote
Do I sniff an MF Global in the Gold Bug world?

Always a threat RE. All paper money, contracts, futures, etf's, are bankster designed toilet paper subject to default and manufactured emergencies at a any time.

The true gold bug's that worship in the Golden temple preach Physical Ownership in the hand as the ONLY way to own Gold to their students. Any other way and the Bankster is holding your Gold for you. We all know how honest and reliable they are.
                                               
Golden Ox coin
Golden Ox coin
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 27, 2012, 11:47:07 PM
Quote
Do I sniff an MF Global in the Gold Bug world?

Always a threat RE. All paper money, contracts, futures, etf's, are bankster designed toilet paper subject to default and manufactured emergencies at a any time.

More from John Ward on The Slog

Quote from: John Ward
GOLD BREAKING: ‘force majeure’ supplier suffered major sales reverse this year (http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/gold-breaking-force-majeure-supplier-suffered-major-sales-reverse-this-year/)

 MTB recently took on massive premises purchase, followed by huge turnover slump
 
 Manfra, Tordella and Brookes, the Top 5 New York gold exchange depositor which announced last night it will not be able to deliver metal until further notice due to force majeure, decided to move from renting to the purchase last February of a ritzy condominium in the Extell Development’s new International Gem Tower. But then in May the firm was badly hit by the slump in precious metal sales.
 
The company claims it is struggling with “operational limitations” following the recent storms. But it’s now nearly a month since Hurricane Sandy.
 
MTB, one of only five US outfits with a license to deliver gold, holds 29,276 troy ounces of gold according to data from Comex. Comex’s owner CME declared what’s called “force majeure” an act of God (but not Mammon) that frees MTB from liability due to events beyond its control.
 
The company did post on its website about having “sustained substantial damage” a fortnight ago. And naturally, anyone can still get The Real Thing delivered via Brinks: plus, MTB is responsible for any additional costs incurred by customers who want to use that process.
 
But this afternoon, I find myself wondering what will happen if (or when) everyone suddenly decides they want their gold right now.
 
MTB is a privately owned bank still largely under the control of the Tordella banking family. Its chairman is Frederic N. Tordella. It converted to being a retail bank in 1993.
 
In February of this year, it took on a new not-yet-finished office condominium in the International Gem Tower. There it will buy the condo – and double its premises size to more than 10,000 square feet on the third floor – with another 2,500 square feet of below-grade space – in the now rising 34-story, mid-block tower on West 47th Street. According to Raizy Haas, senior vice president for development at developer Extell, “They were a little nervous about buying space and moving their operations. They took a long term view and became comfortable with the fact that they were going to own rather than rent.”
 
Nobody was available to comment today about whether the level of comfort had gone up or down. However, what we can be sure about is that MTB President Mike Kramer told the London Financial Times last May, “There are days here where we wonder if the phones are working”. At the time, he estimated that sales of gold, silver coins and small bars had fallen 50% in the previous two months.
 
File this one under ‘informed speculation’.
 
Postscript: At 9/11, MTB had its gold stored under the World Trade Center.

My Gold Scenario now goes like this:

Massive Run on the Gold ETFs and Storage Banks, many Gold Bugs unable to redeem Gold.  Goobermints require all Individuals in Possession of Gold to turn it in to the New Gold Resolution Trust Corporation.  All Trade in Gold halted Indefinitely.  99% Tax on all Conversion of Gold to Goobermint Legal Tender.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 29, 2012, 04:06:50 AM
Would bet my boots this is related to the Force Majeure bullshit from the Crimex. Bankster's doing "God's Work'

 Flash Crash in GOLD A Real Whodunit

Posted by Daniel Duval on November 28, 2012 @ 5:46 pm in General Editorial

Gold saw a massive 24 tonne sell order (7,800 contracts) at 08:20 a.m. New York time – bang on the opening of the world’s largest gold exchange – which produced a fall of 2.25% in the market price.

If the selling was year-end profit-taking then it was inept. Dealers try and finesse big sell orders into the market to get the best (highest) price for the biggest volume they can and thereby optimize profit – that requires stealth. If on the other hand it was a “fat finger” episode as has been suggested with a broker said to be looking to roll his December gold futures contract then it was even more inept.

More likely this could be a short play, with the seller looking to trigger stops below the market at $1730 and thus extend the move significantly lower and thus increase his profits. If so, he certainly caught the market on the hop as the move is counter-intuitive with everything else that is going on in the economy.

Rising concerns about whether Democrats and Republicans can find common ground between tax increases and entitlement spend reduction remains to be seen. More importantly, the US reaches its law-enshrined debt ceiling of $16.4 trillion early to mid February 2012. That promises fireworks again as it did in August 2011 when gold hit an all time high of $1922 as the market stares into the abyss of a possible US debt default.

Against the current economic backdrop, a short seller would have to be quite brave. In short, we will not know the identity or the reason for the sale for a while. Longer term gold investors should not however be deterred – the rationale for buying gold is as favorable as ever and a degree of patience required.

Ross Norman
CEO
Sharps Pixley, London
www.SharpsPixley.com (http://www.SharpsPixley.com) [1]
                                               :hammer: :violent1: :angry4:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 29, 2012, 04:49:20 AM
Remember this. All asset classes are subject to Margin Calls.  MOST gold is held by Big Players.  Unless you can grasp how the valuations can be skewed, you are low hanging fruit.

I dont have more money than God because I am stupid.  Watch the market.  Nobody exits alive here.  You just float as long as you can.

RE           
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 29, 2012, 05:18:49 AM
Remember this. All asset classes are subject to Margin Calls.  MOST gold is held by Big Players.  Unless you can grasp how the valuations can be skewed, you are low hanging fruit.

I dont have more money than God because I am stupid.  Watch the market.  Nobody exits alive here.  You just float as long as you can.

RE           

Every financial asset class is subject to margin calls except cash, gold in hand, paid up real estate, precious stones, art works, rare stamps and coins. 
thumb asp
thumb asp
     
pennyblackNY
pennyblackNY
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Ka on November 29, 2012, 09:13:02 AM
Every financial asset class is subject to margin calls except cash, gold in hand, paid up real estate, precious stones, art works, rare stamps and coins. 

Nothing to do with margin calls, but....

Just read in The Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/business/21567074-fear-litigation-hobbling-art-market-collectors-artists-and-lawyers) that many art works are falling in value, not, so one might think, that people spending tens of millions for status objects are wising up, but because fewer authenticators are willing to authenticate out of fear of being sued (by those whose works don't get authenticated). Poetic justice, it seems to me, or maybe it's just Schadenfreude.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold: The Solution To The Banking Crisis?
Post by: g on November 30, 2012, 02:32:27 AM
 ::) ;D :emthup:

Gold: The Solution To The Banking Crisis?
By Tyler Durden
Created 11/29/2012 - 23:03
Tyler Durden's picture [1]
Submitted by Tyler Durden [1] on 11/29/2012 23:03 -0500

    Bond [2]
    Central Banks [3]
    China [4]
    default [5]
    Eric Sprott [6]
    Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation [7]
    Federal Reserve [8]
    Jamie Dimon [9]
    Meltdown [10]
    Monetary Policy [11]
    Quantitative Easing [12]
    Regional Banks [13]
    Savings Rate [14]
    Sovereign Debt [15]
    Turkey [16]
    World Gold Council [17]



Authored by Eric Sprott and David Baker of Sprott Global Resource Investment [18],

The Basel Committee on Banking Supervision is an exclusive and somewhat mysterious entity that issues banking guidelines for the world’s largest financial institutions. It is part of the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) and is often referred to as the Central Banks’ central bank. Ever since the financial meltdown four years ago, the Basel Committee has been hard at work devising new international regulatory rules designed to minimize the potential for another large-scale financial meltdown. The Committee’s latest ‘framework’, as they call it, is referred to as “Basel III”, and involves tougher capital rules that will force all banks to more than triple the amount of core capital they hold from 2% to 7% in order to avoid future taxpayer bailouts. It doesn’t sound like much of an increase, and according to the Basel group’s own survey, the 100 largest global banks will only require approximately €370 billion in additional reserves to comply with the new regulations by 2019. Given that the Spanish banks alone are believed to need well over €100 billion today simply to keep their capital ratios in check, it is hard to believe €370 billion will be enough protect the world’s “too-big-to-fail” banks from future crises, but it is indeed a step in the right direction.

Initial implementation of Basel III’s capital rules was expected to come into effect on January 1, 2013, but US banking regulators issued a press release on November 9th stating that they wouldn’t meet the deadline, citing a large volume of letters (ie. complaints) received from bank participants and a “wide range of views expressed during the comment period”. It has also been revealed that smaller US regional banks are loath to adopt the new rules, which they view as overly complicated and potentially devastating to their bottom lines. The Independent Community Bankers of America has even requested a Basel III exemption for all banks with less than $50 billion in assets,“in order to avoid large-scale industry concentration that would curtail credit for consumers and business borrowers, especially in small communities.” The long-term implementation period for all Basel III measures actually extends to 2019, so the delays are not necessarily meaningful news, but they do illustrate the growing rift between the US banking cartel and its European counterpart regarding the Basel III framework. JP Morgan’s CEO Jamie Dimon is on record having referred to Basel III regulations as “un-American” for their favourable treatment of European covered bonds over US mortgage-backed securities. Readers may also remember when Dimon was caught yelling at Mark Carney, Canada’s (soon to be former) Central Bank Governor and head of the Financial Stability Board, during a meeting in Washington to discuss the same topic. More recently, Deutsche Bank’s co-chief executive Juergen Fitschen suggested that the US regulators’ delay was “hurting trans-Atlantic relations” and creating distrust... stating, “when the whole thing is called un-American, I can only say in disbelief, who can still believe in this day and age that there can be purely European or American rules.” Suffice it to say that Basel III implementation has not gone as smoothly as planned.

One of the more relevant aspects of Basel III for our portfolios is its treatment of gold as an asset class. Documents posted by the Bank of International Settlements (which houses the Basel Committee) and the United States FDIC have both referenced gold as a “zero percent risk-weighted item” in their proposed frameworks, which has launched spirited rumours within the gold community that Basel III may define gold as a “Tier 1” asset, along with cash and AAA-government securities. We have discovered in delving further that gold’s treatment in Basel III is far more complicated than the rumours suggest, and is still, for all intents and purposes, very much undecided. Without burdening our readers with the turgid details, it turns out that the reference to gold as a “zero-percent risk-weighted item” only relates to its treatment in specific Basel III regulation related to the liquidity of bank assets vs. its liabilities. (For a more comprehensive explanation of Basel III’s treatment of gold, please see the Appendix). But what the Basel III proposals do confirm is the regulators’ desire for banks to improve their liquidity position by holding a larger amount of “high-quality”, liquid assets in order to improve their overall solvency in the event of another crisis.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-29/gold-solution-banking-crisis (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-29/gold-solution-banking-crisis)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 30, 2012, 03:47:07 AM

Every financial asset class is subject to margin calls except cash, gold in hand, paid up real estate, precious stones, art works, rare stamps and coins.

NO.  ALL said Asset Classes are ALWAYS subect to Matgin Calls, because they are  all used as Collateral and all used for Leverage.

The Real Estate market is the obvious example here  You "own" some porperty and use its asessed value as means to buy somethig else.  If you cannot SELL said property to cover what you bought when it loses value,  you are FUCKED.

Large holders of GOLD hold many other things as Property, and if forced to SELL due to Mergin Calls, they gotta drop their Gold on the market to Sell.  If there are not enough buyers with MONEY for the Gold, it is going to drop in value.

EVERY asset class has this problem, artwork and stamps too.  There is NO Asset Class that is ever independent of Mrrgin Calls as long as there is debt out there, and there always is.  You are a fool GO in this respect.  You just do not understand valuation. Perhaps eventually I can get you to understand this.  I eep trying anyhow.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 30, 2012, 04:12:27 AM

Every financial asset class is subject to margin calls except cash, gold in hand, paid up real estate, precious stones, art works, rare stamps and coins.

NO.  ALL said Asset Classes are ALWAYS subect to Matgin Calls, because they are  all used as Collateral and all used for Leverage.

The Real Estate market is the obvious example here  You "own" some porperty and use its asessed value as means to buy somethig else.  If you cannot SELL said property to cover what you bought when it loses value,  you are FUCKED.

Large holders of GOLD hold many other things as Property, and if forced to SELL due to Mergin Calls, they gotta drop their Gold on the market to Sell.  If there are not enough buyers with MONEY for the Gold, it is going to drop in value.

EVERY asset class has this problem, artwork and stamps too.  There is NO Asset Class that is ever independent of Mrrgin Calls as long as there is debt out there, and there always is.  You are a fool GO in this respect.  You just do not understand valuation. Perhaps eventually I can get you to understand this.  I eep trying anyhow.  :icon_sunny:

RE

RE, You are not understanding my point about margin.

Of course, in a deflationary collapse of asset values, people who own a financial asset that is fully paid for and owned by them outright, have to suffer the loss of value of their particular asset when speculators on margin are forced to sell because of the lien, margin, or other encumberance they have on such asset which does not able them to claim full ownership.

Example: I own stock in Johnson and Johnson have the certificates in a safe deposit box attesting to my lawful fully paid ownership.

Market crashes in 2008, holders of JNJ on margin are forced to liquidate, I suffer the same price erosion in my asset that they do, BUT I AM NOT FORCED TO SELL.

My point about hard assets in Hand, Gold,diamonds, rare stamps, precious stones, mortgage free farm land, is factual, if you have possession of it, you paid for it, and you are not subject to a margin call or Forced Liquidation. I mentioned the items for a reason, as they are usually owned by people like myself, that are hedging their distrust of paper money and the financial debt system. The value of the items at a particular point in time is another topic.

I appreciate your efforts at trying to educate me and am truly grateful, cannot wait for the day when you realize that it is I who am the teacher and you the student. You will make GO one proud teacher on that sunny day.  ;D :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on November 30, 2012, 04:32:22 AM
GO, I wait for the day when you will try to trade your Stamp Collection for aTwinkie.  Oh wait, there ARE no Twinkies! LOL.  Your Stamps have NO VALUE  You can't go NEGATIVE if you hold unleveraged asets I grant you that, but you still can hit ZERO.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 30, 2012, 06:19:17 AM
GO, I wait for the day when you will try to trade your Stamp Collection for aTwinkie.  Oh wait, there ARE no Twinkies! LOL.  Your Stamps have NO VALUE  You can't go NEGATIVE if you hold unleveraged asets I grant you that, but you still can hit ZERO.

RE
That's for sure, and it is a possibility that applies to ALL of us.  :dontknow:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on November 30, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
I suppose the argument GO could make is that while gold or other hard assets may decrease in nominal terms they may increase in real terms. His wealth in real terms or purchasing power may increase if the assets are not bought with debt and this would be enhanced even further (possibly) if compared to other asset classes such as cash, stocks, bonds or real estate. As a result he may still become richer, relatively speaking, in a deflationary scenario even though he maybe poorer in absolute terms. I think the question or desire of people may not be about a return on capital but rather a return of capital. GO simply wants to avoid holding an empty bag rather than becoming rich from his investments. Well it is just a theory on my part, I am sure GO could say whether this is his desire or not.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on November 30, 2012, 12:47:04 PM
Remember this. All asset classes are subject to Margin Calls.  MOST gold is held by Big Players.  Unless you can grasp how the valuations can be skewed, you are low hanging fruit.

I dont have more money than God because I am stupid.  Watch the market.  Nobody exits alive here.  You just float as long as you can.

RE           

RE

Since you have "more money than GOD" and it is obvious that you are not stupid;  what is your advice in general for those members with surplus assets or savings who are not interested in market casinos and want to keep their assets/savings from bankster/gooberment/freelance theft?   Surplus assets as used here presumes the sustainable food problem is solved, the primary and bugout location (or mobile) is owned or otherwise secured, no debt exists, and backup systems and supplies are on hand  or cached for forseeable contingencies.  Savings means cash beyond two to three years bills and taxes held toward above items where surplus assets do not exist.  Even those of us with lesser assets  ;)  might wonder where to put a windfall while we contemplate its dispersal.

I can see the potential downsides you point out for PMs and collectables.   Obviously paper "wealth" has even more downside.  What then is superior?  If broker and bank accounts, safe deposit, and stockpiles are subject to theft;  what is safe, if anything? 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on November 30, 2012, 08:32:24 PM
I suppose the argument GO could make is that while gold or other hard assets may decrease in nominal terms they may increase in real terms. His wealth in real terms or purchasing power may increase if the assets are not bought with debt and this would be enhanced even further (possibly) if compared to other asset classes such as cash, stocks, bonds or real estate. As a result he may still become richer, relatively speaking, in a deflationary scenario even though he maybe poorer in absolute terms. I think the question or desire of people may not be about a return on capital but rather a return of capital. GO simply wants to avoid holding an empty bag rather than becoming rich from his investments. Well it is just a theory on my part, I am sure GO could say whether this is his desire or not.

Thanks Monsta, You buy gold to try and PRESERVE your savings, not to make money.

Gold is known for it's Stability and intrinsic value. It only goes wild on the upside when the caretakers of the currency it is quoted in become drunk and reckless with their power to print paper.

Richard Russell, the famous Dow Theorist and financial writer has always stated, when the real crash comes,"Gold Will Be The Last Man Standing."

Nothing is perfect, but Gold's 4000 year advance against all the different fiat ever created is a fact ignored only by the foolish.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Max Keiser
Post by: g on December 01, 2012, 06:55:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/hQozHYMIGSM&fs=1

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=44599 (http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=44599)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News:Billionaire Eric Sprott - Gold To Rise 500% From Current
Post by: g on December 01, 2012, 07:15:26 AM
 :o ::)


Today billionaire Eric Sprott warned King World News, “There is no doubt that central planners are trying to avoid a financial collapse here.”  This is the first in a series of interviews with Sprott that will be released today which reveals what is going on behind the scenes with the increasingly desperate Western central planners and their gold and silver price suppression scheme.

There is (also) lots of discussion about repatriating gold, and that goes to Germany, Austria, now the Netherlands.  I think the more instructive example was when they (Austrian politicians) asked the Austrian Finance Minister, ‘What percent of our gold is held in Austria?’  I think the number was something like 13% or 17%, and the rest was in New York and London.

At the same time he (Austria’s Finance Minister) mentioned they had been earning income on leasing the gold.  These central banks have deposited their gold with the Fed or the Bank of England, and in turn it has been leased out.  Of course when gold is leased out it ultimately gets sold in its physical form to someone who is not likely to return it.








For example, if our ETF buys gold, it’s not going back.  If the Chinese buy gold, it’s not coming back into the system.  If the Indians buy gold, it’s not coming back.  So the central bank has, in essence, an IOU from a bullion bank on their balance sheet, but if they exercised that IOU, there is no way they would get that gold back.


The central banks have continued to supply gold into the market by leasing it out into the gold market.  And when they ask to get it back, whether it’s the Germans or the Dutch or the Austrians, they are going to find out they are not going to get the gold back and they don’t really own it.  They have a claim on it, but they won’t be able to exercise their claim.


That’s why I speculate they (Western central banks) may have very little gold left.  There is no doubt that central planners are trying to avoid a financial collapse here.  Of course, one of the things is to try to keep the price of gold and silver under control.  That’s why, as you know, they will bend anything to make the system look normal, including printing money which I believe is totally farcical.  That, I’m sure, would include selling of gold which all the data tells me they must be selling.


I’ve always thought that someday they were going to look in the cupboard (vaults) and say, ‘Look, we’re not going to win this thing anymore, and it will just end.  I don’t know when that day happens, but every day that I look at the gold market, the situation just gets tighter and tighter (in the physical market).


I think there is lots of evidence of this tsunami of interest coming back into the gold market.  Eric, you would find it interesting that most of these (financial) experts say that you should have 5% or 10% of your money in gold.  Well, today gold represents 1% of all of the financial assets in the world.


How can you go from 1% to 5% when you only have a 1.5% increase in supply each year?  It’s absolutely impossible.  I find it almost hilarious to think that a mass (of investors) would try to get to that level because it would just be impossible.  The only way you can go from the current 1% to 5%, is essentially to have the price go up by 500% and I think that’s probably more likely what is going to happen.”



http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/11/30_Billionaire_Eric_Sprott_-_Gold_To_Rise_500_From_Current_Levels.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/11/30_Billionaire_Eric_Sprott_-_Gold_To_Rise_500_From_Current_Levels.html)   :icon_study:

 


 

Title: Chartist Friend from Pittsburgh
Post by: RE on December 02, 2012, 12:36:25 AM
I am currently negotiating with Chartist Friend from Pittsburgh to feature his Market Charts regularly on the Diner Newz Page, as well as inside the Diner here.  CFFP is a regular contributor to Elvis' Economic Undertow blog as well as having his own Charting Blog.

Hopefully this will work out, in the meantime here is a late breaking chart from CFFP on the Silver Market.  CFFP is projecting a reversal here and a break down to new lows for Silver.  Time to Short Silver?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qFrw6MZGOCg/ULkBRvNtfsI/AAAAAAAAYpc/LVte1YrSNwI/s1600/121130-L.png)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Iran buys $7 billion Gold from Turkey till Nov-2012
Post by: g on December 10, 2012, 05:55:40 AM
Turkey has been importing Iranian oil and gas, and has been compensating the Islamic Republic in gold, beginning in February.

ANKARA(BullionStreet): Gold remained the back bone of Turkey's trade with Iran this year as the yellow metal accounted for 40% of total turnover till November this year.

According to Iranian news agency IRNA, total trade between Iran and Turkey have risen nearly 50 percent this year to $20 billion in a 10-month period ending in November.

The Of the $20 billion in trade, $7 billion resulted from Turkish exports of gold to Iran.. Turkey has been importing Iranian oil and gas, and has been compensating the Islamic Republic in gold, beginning in February.

Turkish imports from Iran, however, were far less: in 2011, Turkey imported $10.573 billion in goods, a figure that actually dropped to $10.368 billion this year.

There was a 45.89 percent growth in value, compared to the same period the previous year, when bilateral trade stood at $19.697 billion.

According to a report, exports from Turkey to Iran rose 243.5 percent in 2012 over the previous year,a total of $9.329 billion in products to Iran over the 10-month period in 2012.

The figure represents a drastic increase over the $2.927
 
1355133237
1355133237

www.bullionstreet.com/news/iran-buys-7-billion-gold-from-turkey-till-nov-2012/3545#Post (http://www.bullionstreet.com/news/iran-buys-7-billion-gold-from-turkey-till-nov-2012/3545#Post)         :icon_study:
     
Title: Platinum coins may solve US debt ceiling problems
Post by: monsta666 on December 10, 2012, 10:37:59 AM
A recent article from The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/07/could-two-platinum-coins-solve-the-debt-ceiling-crisis/?hpid=z2) suggests that the debt ceiling crisis can be averted if Obama decides to exploit a loophole as the current law does not place any restrictions on Obama minting new platinum coins and issuing them as currency. What is more Obama can assign any value to the said coins. The article suggests by minting out $1 trillion coins he could theoretically avoid the debt ceiling by ordering the US Treasury to produce two $1 trillion platinum coins. These new coins can then be deposited at the Federal Reserve where the reserve will then exchange the coins for $2 trillion and the treasury can use that exchanged money to bring down the national debt.

As for the inflation argument; the article addresses this point by referring to economist Joseph Gagnon who says that there will be no inflationary forces with this exchange as Obama would still maintain current spending plans so the money supply should not change as a result of this exchange. Reassuring words to some? Maybe but I can't help but what wonder that even though this newly printed money is debt free it will still add money to the monetary system as the Fed could either loan out the additional $2 trillion they received directly or the money will eventually work its way into the commercial banking system where it will be expanded due to the system of fractional reserve banking. How this respected economist cannot see this is beyond me. All the money created from the processes I described above will greatly exceed any money destroyed through debt repayments. In any case here is an a preview of the article below for any gold bugs that are interested in this round about way of money printing:

Quote
Could two platinum coins solve the debt-ceiling crisis?

Posted by Brad Plumer on December 7, 2012 at 12:37 pm

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_404h/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/07/30/National-Economy/Images/AP97092302872.jpg)
A mere $100? Pshaw. Try $1 trillion. (Associated Press)


If President Obama wants to avoid an economic calamity next year, he could always show up at a press conference bearing two shiny platinum coins, worth… $1 trillion apiece.

A mere $100? Pshaw. Try $1 trillion. (Associated Press)

Okay, that sounds utterly insane. But ever since last year, some economists and legal scholars have suggested that the “platinum coin option” is one way to defuse a crisis if Congress can’t or won’t lift the debt ceiling soon. At least in theory.

The U.S. government is, after all, facing a real problem. The Treasury Department will hit its $16.4 trillion borrowing limit (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/09/if-the-u-s-goes-over-the-fiscal-cliff-do-we-still-need-to-raise-the-debt-ceiling/) by next February at the latest. Unless Congress reaches an agreement to raise that borrowing limit, the government will no longer be able to borrow enough money to pay all its bills.

Last year, Republicans in Congress resisted lifting the debt ceiling until the last minute — and then only in exchange for spending cuts. Panic ensued. So what happens if there’s another showdown this year?

Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years — without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.

"I like it," says Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

In theory, this is much like having the central bank print money. But, says Gagnon, the U.S. government would simply be using the money to keep spending at existing levels, so it wouldn't create any extra inflation. And if it did cause problems, the Fed could always counteract the effects by winding down some of its other programs to inject money into the economy.

Is the platinum coin option really legal? Apparently so. It was discussed (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/28/balkin.obama.options/index.html?hpt=hp_c1) during the 2011 debt-ceiling crisis by Jack Balkin, a law professor at Yale Law School. Under law, he noted, there's a limit to how much paper money the United States can circulate at any one time, and there are rules that limit how many gold, silver and copper coins the Treasury can mint.

But there's no such limit when it comes to platinum coins. It's right there in the U.S. legal code: (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112) "The Secretary may mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time."

Problem solved, right?

Well, maybe not. This strategy is hardly risk-free. Opponents could plausibly argue that the original law (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-104hr2614rfs/pdf/BILLS-104hr2614rfs.pdf) was intended to set rules around commemorative coins, not to finance the operations of the government. And, of course, the political blowback would be fierce.

Indeed, even Balkin now says that he thinks the platinum-coin option is too risky. If Congress can't or won't lift the debt ceiling, then most likely the Obama administration would have to start shutting down parts of government so that it doesn't default on its debt. That, in theory, would prod Congress to act.

"All those other ideas [like the platinum coin option] are very uncertain, and they could lead to complicated litigation," says Balkin. "A government shutdown is much more straightforward."

The platinum coin is only one of many out-of-the-box ideas that have been proposed to avoid a debt ceiling crisis. Some legal scholars have suggested that Obama could declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-wont-obama-just-declare-the-debt-ceiling-unconstitutional/2011/07/29/gIQAe5xkhI_blog.html) under the 14th amendment. Last year, Gagnon suggested (http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2296/debt-limit-options) that the Treasury Department could start selling off its gold reserves to pay its bills until Congress raised the ceiling.

But the consensus seems to be that all of these options are wildly unlikely. A recent report by Chris Krueger, a policy analyst at Guggenheim Partners, suggested that ideas like a 14th amendment challenge or the platinum coins "are VERY low probability options."

But not impossible. And if, for whatever reason, Congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling as part of the fiscal cliff negotiations, then some of these wacky ideas may get more attention.

*Update: Cullen Roche appears to have been (http://pragcap.com/lets-end-this-debt-ceiling-debate-with-a-1-oz-1t-coin) one of the first people to discuss the platinum coin idea in 2011 — it came from one of his readers. See also here (http://www.correntewire.com/coin_seigniorage_a_legal_alternative_and_maybe_the_presidents_duty).
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Richard Russell: Stage Now Set For Public To Enter Gold
Post by: g on December 11, 2012, 04:09:59 AM


Richard Russell continues:


“Obviously, there are some powerful groups (the shorts) that do not want to see gold move into and above the 1800s.  At the bottom of the rectangle, gold has found support at approximately 1575.


For the last two weeks, gold and the dollar have moved in unison, which is most unusual.  At the bottom of the chart we see the slow stochastics, which are in the neutral or middle zone.  Since the bull market in gold is still in force, I would expect gold, ultimately, to break up and into the 1800 + zone.






One caveat -- After rising for 12 years in a row, I expect the bull market in gold to produce a final upside blow-off.  Bull markets don't usually die with a whisper and a snore.  Often prior to a final upward explosion, we will see a sharp correction, and I have expected something like that for gold.  The final correction serves to clear the air and readies the market for a climactic rise.


One reason why we may not see the usual correction in gold is that most of the world's central banks are now accumulaters of gold on any weakness.  Both China and Russia are now eager buyers of gold -- both have a small percentage of gold in their reserves.


It's also significant that most Americans are afraid of gold, even though it has risen year after year for twelve years.  Imagine the following a stock would enjoy if a given stock had risen twelve years in a row.


Since when does making money make one a sage? Ever since Warren Buffett bought a chunk of the Washington Post, he's turned himself (or the media has turned him) into an oracle.  Buffett says, yes, we should "tax the rich."  That doesn't concern Buffett, who could drop a few billion and not know it.


Buffett may be a great company-picker, but when it comes to taxes and government, he's no oracle in my eyes.  Of course, I'm bitter.  I bought ten shares of Berkshire at $250 a share and sold them when the stock hit $500.  Who knew?  Who ever knows?  Actually, I bought the shares of Berkshire so I could read Warren's annual report.


In the 1974 bear market, Berkshire's shares dropped in half. I wonder how many BRK followers held their stock through the 1974 disaster?


Question --Why is gold the ultimate safe-haven investment?


Answer -- Because gold is the only item that can't go bankrupt.  For thousands of years, gold has been treated as pure wealth.


Irony -- The lust for gold opened up the American West.  In 1849 men left their wives and families and homes and headed West in the hope of finding gold.  Yet today, most Americans would not swap their intangible, unbacked dollars (Federal notes) for gold.


For a dozen years, Americans have turned their backs on an item that has risen to new highs each and every year.  The stage is set for a huge reversal in sentiment.  My intuition says the turn will come between now and 2015.”

shapeimage 22
shapeimage 22

KWN RR 103
KWN RR 103


http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/12/11_Richard_Russell__Stage_Now_Set_For_Public_To_Enter_Gold_Market.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2012/12/11_Richard_Russell__Stage_Now_Set_For_Public_To_Enter_Gold_Market.html)    :icon_study:





 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Eric Sprott: Silver to Outshine Gold
Post by: g on December 15, 2012, 12:34:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/xbDWqS68Hag&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: It's a Solid Gold Bar You Can Break Up, Not Chocolate!
Post by: g on December 24, 2012, 01:04:23 PM
Fancy a chunk? No, it's not chocolate... It's a solid gold bar you can break up (and could be the future of money if there's economic meltdown)

    Swiss refinery marketing gold bar that can be easily broken into 1g chunks to be used as payment in a crisis
    Wealthy individuals in Switzerland, Austria and Germany said to be lining up to buy the gold 'CombiBars'
    Value of gold has gone up more than 500 per cent since 2001
clip image00123
clip image00123
 
clip image00230
clip image00230

article 2251757 169BEF22000005DC 972 634x443
article 2251757 169BEF22000005DC 972 634x443

article 2251757 169BEFCC000005DC 843 634x468
article 2251757 169BEFCC000005DC 843 634x468
www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2251757/Fancy-chunk-No-chocolate--Its-future-money-euro-goes-under.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2251757/Fancy-chunk-No-chocolate--Its-future-money-euro-goes-under.html)  :icon_study:
 
article 2251757 169BEFC2000005DC 552 634x426
article 2251757 169BEFC2000005DC 552 634x426
             
The rich are buying standard bars or have deposits of physical gold. People that have less money are buying up to 100 grams,' said Michael Mesaric, CEO of Valcambi.

'But for many people a pure investment product is no longer enough. They want to be able to do something with the precious metal.'

Mr Mesaric said the advantage of the CombiBar - dubbed a 'chocolate bar' because pieces can be easily broken off by hand - is that it is easily carried and is cheaper than buying 50 one gram bars.

'The produce can also be used as an alternative method of payment,' he said.  ::) :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Historic Day for Gold Bugs Revisited
Post by: g on December 27, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
Nixon Ends Bretton Woods International Monetary System

http://www.youtube.com/v/iRzr1QU6K1o&fs=1
Title: Top Ten Reasons Why Fiat Currency Is Superior To Gold
Post by: monsta666 on December 28, 2012, 09:14:45 PM
Had to think of Golden Oxen when I read this article (http://dailycapitalist.com/2012/12/27/top-ten-reasons-why-fiat-currency-is-superior-to-gold-or-silver-money/). Try not to have a heart attack...

Top Ten Reasons Why Fiat Currency Is Superior To Gold

By John Butler, on December 27th, 2012

In the spirit of the holidays and hope for a more prosperous 2013, I thought my readers might appreciate a little humour to partially offset the relentless doom and gloom associated with the Amphora Report. So please, don’t take this edition too seriously. But if you happen to stumble across a ‘paperbug’ or two over the holidays, perhaps you could share some of the points made here. Humour sometimes helps people realise just how hopelessly misguided they are. Cheers!

Number 10: There Is Not Enough Gold (Or Silver) In The World To Serve As Money

Let’s begin with the obvious. We know that central banks the world over have printed money at exponentially growing rates for years. There is now so much paper and electronic money floating around the world that gold (or silver) can not possibly be expected to keep up. You can’t print gold, after all, you need to find it, dig it out of the ground, refine it, etc, a hugely expensive and time-consuming process which practically ensures a stable rather than exponentially growing supply of the stuff.

Of course, we know that an exponentially growing supply of money is a good thing. How else can an economy hope to grow, especially one bearing an exponentially rising debt burden! We need all that new money to pay all that new interest, don’t we? And don’t forget, most things keep getting more expensive, like food and fuel. Don’t we need more money to pay for all that too? What about government entitlements that keep growing in size? If we didn’t have a constant flow of new money, how on earth would we pay for all of that? It is essential that we keep the printing presses rolling.

Number 9: Gold And Silver Are Old-Fashioned, Cumbersome Money

Here’s another obvious one for you: Gold is HEAVY! Who wants to carry gold coins around? They might be nice and shiny, but to me, gold looks even prettier around a lady’s neck or wrist.

The more you think about it, in an age of electronic, plastic or internet money, the whole concept of coinage begins to seem a bit anachronistic. Who even uses small denomination coins anymore, except as household poker betting tokens? I suppose larger coins are still of some use, but let’s face it folks, even those are almost worthless anymore. Coinage is just so passé.

Sure, coins used to have some value. When I was young and I watched Little House on the Prairie and The Waltons I was amazed that at the general stores or other retail establishments a penny actually bought a range of items and with a few nickels and dimes you could purchase much of what was on offer!

But why bother with coins today? I use plastic or electronic money for almost everything. Sure, that money still references dollars, or euros, or sterling, or yen balances of a bank account. But hey, it would be just so barbaric to reference a gold or silver account instead, wouldn’t it? As if banks even hold enough cash on hand for large withdrawals anymore, much less gold or silver. Oh and an ounce of gold, at a whopping $1,700 is just way too expensive for most commerce. So not only is there not enough gold in the world as per Number 10 above; what gold there is, is too expensive to serve as a useful money! Oh I suppose we could use fractions of ounces of gold instead of full ounces, but most people struggle with fractions, including me. Silver might be more useful, but at over $30/oz, it wouldn’t really work for making change now, would it?

Number 8: Gold Restrains Growth

OK, this reason is a little bit wonkish, but if you’ll bear with me I’ll explain why gold-backed money would put the brakes on the healthy growth the world has been experiencing all through this prosperous modern period of an exponentially rising money supply and might even send us back to the poor house. We already touched on this with Number 10 but let’s go off on a tangent here. You see, back when gold was money, people were poorer. Way poorer. And economic growth was often much weaker.

I mean, before the industrial revolution, we didn’t even have machines to do basic work like farming, so people had to have loads of children just to get basic work done, resulting in a cycle of poverty. Sure, a handful of landed aristocrats held most of the wealth, and they did just fine, but really, do we want to go back to that sort of wealth disparity?

Oh and as for the industrial revolution, it was such a fluke. Sure it led to the most rapid economic growth in history in most of Europe, North America and Japan, but it would probably have been way more rapid had money growth been exponential instead of stable at the time. That said, inflation didn’t actually work out so well in France, where exponential money growth destroyed much of the economy in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. But hey, how else to finance that Revolution of theirs?

The American Revolution was also hugely inflationary, you know, those worthless continentals and all. But wasn’t it a huge overreaction for the US federal government to choose silver coinage as the inaugural US federal money? For that matter, had Napoleon just kept on inflating, rather than paying his soldiers in silver coin, he might have won the wars against those Brits and others who refused to inflate their currencies. And why did the Americans experiment with gold- and silver-backed money for so long? Imagine how much faster they would have industrialised had they just kept on printing continentals instead! Ah well, hindsight is 20:20.

Perhaps technology wouldn’t exactly regress if we went back to gold- or silver-backed money but you never know. Some people talk like that. And certainly most of the innovations of modern times would never have taken place had we been on gold-backed money. Think about all those green technologies that promise to solve our energy problems someday. Things were just fine before we started consuming all the carbon stuff and now we’ve got to get back on track. Only exponentially growing money can fund these programmes that aren’t yet profitable. Imagine what would happen if money were backed by gold? We would be dependent on energy and other technologies that actually made fundamental economic sense. No, that would be a huge mistake.

Number 7: The Gold Standard Caused The Great Depression

This is related to the above but hugely important in its own right so I’m treating it as a separate critique of gold- or silver-backed money.

Milton Friedman is famous in part for blaming the Federal Reserve for causing the Great Depression. This runs contrary to what many believe, however, that the gold standard itself caused the Depression. Of course, they are right. Let me show you why by way of a little historical background.

We all know that WWI was hugely inflationary as Britain, Germany and other belligerents went off the gold standard in order to finance the war by printing money. Following years of printing, in Europe prices for just about everything skyrocketed. It didn’t help, of course, that much industrial capacity was destroyed by the war, limiting supply. In Russia, most of the capital stock was seized by the government as part of their anti-capitalist revolution. So there was loads more money chasing far fewer goods in Europe, which is one way Milton Friedman and other so-called ‘monetarists’ like to explain inflation.

In some places like Weimar Germany, interwar Austria and Hungary, there was outright hyperinflation and currency collapse in the 1920s. Impoverished, these countries ended up with highly competitive labour costs, similar to various poor emerging markets today. Britain, however, had gone back on the gold standard in 1925 and thus had the strongest currency in Europe. This made British labour highly uncompetitive, resulting in persistently high unemployment and massive strikes, some turning violent.

In 1927, the Bank of England kindly requested that the US Federal Reserve stimulate demand for UK exports by expanding the US money supply. The Fed obliged. This contributed to a huge stock market bubble in the US, but unfortunately it crashed under its own weight in 1929. Meanwhile, Britain’s economy remained mired in a depression unknown to most Americans today.

Finally, in 1931, Britain decided to devalue its currency. The US was already slipping into depression at the time and suddenly found it had by far the least competitive wages in the world. It was now in a situation comparable to Britain in 1927, yet without another country to which it could turn for help.

The Federal Reserve had already accumulated a huge amount of gold from Britain but, as Milton Friedman observed, didn’t do as it was supposed to do and expand the domestic money supply in line with the swelling gold reserves. Why? No one knows. Perhaps the Fed was spooked by the stock market boom and bust that it had created in 1927-29 and didn’t want to risk a repeat. But whereas the 1927 monetary expansion was not linked to an inflow of gold reserves, in 1930-31 the Fed could have hugely expanded the money supply in line with growing gold reserves, thereby preventing many bank failures.

To make matters worse, President Hoover was advised by some prominent, proto-Keynesian economists of the day that a drop in aggregate demand had to be avoided at all costs and that the best way to accomplish this was to support wages, notwithstanding rising unemployment. As a result, US wages were by far the highest in the world by 1931, labour was uncompetitive, and unemployment was thus far higher than it would otherwise have been, had Hoover left things alone.

So, it is blindingly obvious that the gold standard was the cause of the Great Depression. Not WWI. Not the massive inflation to pay for WWI. Not the widespread destruction of European industry. Not the Russian Revolution and industrial collapse. Not the 1920s hyperinflations and revolutions in central Europe. Not the Fed’s stock market bubble of 1927-29. Not the Fed’s failure to allow the money supply to expand naturally with gold reserves in 1930-31. Not the artificial wage supports introduced by President Hoover and continued by FDR. No, the gold standard caused the Great Depression. Really. It did.

Number 6: Rules Can Be Broken

Returning to the obvious, this reason is so simple a child can understand it. Rules are nice on paper but we all know they can be broken. Just because a country is on a gold standard doesn’t mean it can’t just devalue and leave. Britain and Germany did so in 1914 and inflated like crazy to pay for WWI as explained above. The US devalued the dollar some 60% versus gold in 1934 and left the gold standard entirely in 1971.

Let’s face it, if rules can be broken, what’s the point having them in the first place? The claim that gold-backed money is stable and prevents runaway inflation is just hogwash. Whenever governments choose, they can ditch gold-backed money, devalue and create as much inflation as they desire. They can even hyperinflate if they like. What’s to stop them? They set the rules. Gold advocates are just so naïve!

Number 5: Gold-Backed Money Favours The Us Versus The Rest Of The World

Now for those of us residing outside the US of A, we’re sometimes concerned that the US has the largest gold reserves in the world. If the world went back on a gold standard, then the US would be even more powerful than it already is. It would throw its weight around even more, use that gold to pay for an even larger military and open up more bases abroad, including where they aren’t even wanted, like in Bulgaria. The US might even start more wars, as if it hasn’t started enough already, finananced as they are with the Fed’s printing press.

Now history does suggest that war and inflation go hand in hand. Certainly this was the case in the 20th century. The French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars were hugely inflationary in continental Europe. The 30years’ war was hugely inflationary too, ruining the previously prosperous Habsburg economies. Then there was the American Revolution, financed with those paper continentals. But today things are different. Really, they are. If the world were on a gold standard, there would be more wars, notwithstanding that these would be far more difficult to finance.

On another note, the US economy imports far more than it exports. Wonks call this a ‘trade-deficit’. Really wonkish types have a more expanded term called a ‘current-account deficit’. If the world went back onto a gold standard, then the US would need to use its gold reserves to pay for net imports, instead of just printing more dollars. And at current gold prices, the US would not even be able to cover one year of its current-account deficit!

Imagine, the US would be unable to keep importing more than it exported! It would be forced to become a more competitive economy and it would need to save and produce more and consume less! The horror! We all know that the US consumer is the only thing keeping the global economy afloat. To whom would China or others export if not to the US consumer? What a ridiculous idea!

Well, it’s just not going to happen. Keynesians like Paul Krugman know that there is just no other way to grow economies than with exponential money growth to finance consumption. Saving is the quick road to the poor house. Borrowing your way to prosperity has worked so well in the past, why would anyone possibly want to stop now? After all, savings is the four-letter word of Keynesian economics. Let’s just not go there.

Number 4: Gold Favours Gold-Mining Countries Over Others

Here’s another simple one: If you go back to gold- or silver-backed money, you are providing a huge subsidy for those countries producing the money. Why give them the printing press, when we can keep it for ourselves? Remember, the power to print exponentially rising amounts of fiat currency is the key to economic prosperity. We don’t want countries rich in natural resources to benefit at our expense now, do we?

Sure, many countries rich in gold are in Africa or other underdeveloped regions. They’re poor. They’re backward. Some are near-dictatorships. Many dictators depend on us and our foreign aid, financed as it is with our printing presses. Why, if we could no longer print that foreign aid into existence, these poor countries would have to help themselves instead! No, they’re just too backward for that.

Imagine that the value of gold and silver mines in Africa and other poor parts of the world soared as these metals were re-monetised. Why it would be like what happened to the Persian Gulf countries when oil became a highly valuable commodity back in the 1970s. They became rich! Today those economies are among the wealthiest in the world. They mostly export far more than they import and they have built up huge sovereign wealth funds for the future.

But Africa being as screwed up as it is, they can’t be expected to spend their wealth responsibly. They need the US, UK and other countries to show them how to do it. Like what gas-guzzlers to buy. Or how many flat-screen TVs per McMansion to have. Or how to administer a post office, or a national railway system, or quality state education. No, rebalancing global wealth toward Africa and other poor regions is bad enough. Giving them control over their own wealth is just plain irresponsible. We shouldn’t do it and so we shouldn’t return to gold-backed money. (Please don’t think I’m racist BTW, I promise you I have at least one black friend. Or I did once. Really. I’m sure the same is true of all those politicians and bureaucrats who believe that, without foreign aid, many African countries would end up like Argentina. Or Greece even.)

Number 3: Gold Favours The Rich

Notwithstanding the observation above, that gold- and silver-backed money would bestow greater wealth on countries rich in those particular natural resources, the fact is, today most gold and silver privately held is in the hands of the wealthy. They’re already rich, why should we make them even more so? Wealth inequality is a serious problem, why make it worse?

We all know that exponential fiat money growth in recent decades has helped to prevent even greater wealth disparity. Sure, in the US, the wealth of the top 1% has risen exponentially relative to the middle-class since the 1970s, when the US went off the gold standard and the age of exponential money growth began, but that is mere coincidence.

It is true that real wages grew quickly under the gold standard, which created the largest middle-class in history, but even then there were those nasty Robber Barons who became far richer than they deserved. Some of them were enlightened enough to realise this, like Andrew Carnegie, who gave away most of his fortune. Economic progress is OK as long as people don’t get too rich from it. So let’s keep creating wealth by printing money but make certain that those that get too rich give it away. Or else.

We shouldn’t be too concerned that the banks and owners of capital are the primary beneficiaries of money expansion, as they have first access to the new money. After all, we want our undercapitalised banks to start lending again so we can continue on our borrowing and consumption binge. How else are the banks going to lend us money if we don’t create it in the first place? Sure we have to pay them interest on it, but rates are low so we shouldn’t care.

Yes, inflation is historically associated with wealth disparity and sound money is associated with a growing middle class. But that was before we came up with the modern welfare state that automatically transfers money from the wealthy to the poor, that is, unless the wealthy find ways around the tax code by creating trusts and endowments, purchasing tax-exempt securities or acquiring assets that tend to rise in price with inflation. But they don’t really want to avoid tax, do they?

Warren Buffett, for one, says he wants to pay more tax. Of course he is allowed to do that, as the IRS has a special facility for those who wish to pay more than their mandated share. Sometimes I wonder why he doesn’t. He could dump his tax-exempt munis and hold taxable bonds, for example. Or he could pay out dividends, taxed as ordinary income, rather than purchasing outstanding shares through buy-backs. Or he could live in a state with high taxes, rather than in low-tax Nebraska. Given the complexity of the tax codes in most developed countries, I suspect there are thousands of ways that Warren or other rich people could pay more tax if they wished. Maybe actions speak louder than words.

Of course middle-class families don’t have access to fancy tax planning, as it tends to be rather expensive. Really fancy tax planning requires writing new items into the tax code, something that tax lobbyists do full-time on behalf of the wealthy. No, middle-class folks just have to pay up to compensate for all those loopholes that most never hear about until the government decides that they are no longer politically expedient. In practice, this means that the welfare state is primarily a redistribution from the middle-class to the poor. But no, I don’t think this is the reason for the shinking middle class. I think it is because, notwithstanding clearly herioic attempts, we are still not printing enough money.

Number 2: PhDs Know What’s Good For Us

Back to the obvious, we all know that someone with a PhD is smarter than we are. They’ve got the degree to prove it. Some PhDs even have degrees in economics, which is unbelievably complicated. How else could one understand how exponential money growth creates wealth? How you can borrow your way to prosperity and save your way into the poor house? How importing more than you export is sustainable? How coercive central planning is superior to voluntary, free-market exchange?

Let’s face it, we may all be equal, but PhDs are more equal than others. If we didn’t have them telling us what the price of money should be—or the rate of interest if you prefer—we would just lurch from one economic calamity to the next. The Great Depression would seem a cake walk by comparison, as would our current economic malaise, which they say isn’t a depression, even if it feels like it to most.

If you need more proof, just look at those fancy buildings that central bankers work in. They’re impressive. So are the headquarters of the big private banks. These guys are obviously successful and important, so there is no good reason why they shouldn’t be telling us what to do. They even have a name for what they tell us to do: Free-Market Capitalism. I’m not entirely sure what the ‘Free’ part of that means, as most things aren’t free, except of course those provided by the government.

The problem with gold- or silver-backed money, you see, is that the PhDs would no longer have the ability to manipulate money for our benefit. And since they know precisely what the supply of money should be, we shouldn’t be concerned that they might create too much of it, or too little for that matter. The exponential amounts they’ve been creating since 2007 are ‘just right’, as Goldilocks might say.

Also, PhDs have all sorts of fancy statistics that only they understand. This is because they create them in the first place. PhDs are smart enough to do that, you see. So when they tell you that consumer price inflation is 2.43%, they don’t mean 2.42%. Or 2.44%. No, they mean 2.43%. This precision is important as it determines how many billions of new money they need to give to the banks to ensure price stability and full employment. If they’re having trouble doing that, however, it’s not their fault. They’re PhDs.

Speaking of ‘price stability’, since when is 2.43% growth in prices ‘stability’? Wouldn’t that be 0.00%? They designed the statistics, so why on earth did they choose to set ‘stability’ at 2.43%? I suppose I would need a PhD to understand that.

Number 1: If Given A Choice, We Would All Prefer Fiat Over Gold-Backed Money

As I’m not a PhD, I’m not qualified to go around telling people what to do. Sure, I make suggestions from time to time, because I have a Master’s degree. I even make strong recommendations on rare occasion, because I have an honours degree. (If I only had an undergraduate degree, I wouldn’t even make suggestions. Without any degree, I suppose I wouldn’t open my mouth.)

One suggestion I wouldn’t make, however, is that people be allowed to choose the money they use. I mean, what would be the point of that? We might all choose to use a different money, no one would accept these monies from each other, and so we would never engage in commerce except through direct barter. We all know how inefficient barter is. It is why money was created in the first place. And who created money? Well seeing how they control it, I suppose it must have been PhDs. There were no doubt PhDs in ancient Lydia, where coinage originated, no?

The Lydian PhDs may have had the original idea but it was the Greek PhDs who supplied most of the coinage for the Hellenistic world. They knew just how much to mint. Even non-Greeks used the Greek coinage, because they liked it.

(Here’s a puzzle: Were the myriad non-Greeks who chose to use Greek coinage also PhDs? If they were so clever, why didn’t they mint their own coins instead? Are some PhDs cleverer than others? I’ll have to revisit this at some point when I haven’t been drinking wine.)

Then there were the Romans. Now these guys were clever. So clever that they built a huge empire, with lots of impressive buildings, roads and aqueducts. They were so clever they even discovered how to manipulate money through debasement. This really got going in the 3rd century, which happens to correspond with their decline. But that’s just coincidence.

My more educated readers might know that the Roman Empire eventually split in two and that while currency debasement continued in the Western Empire, which all but collapsed entirely by the 5th century, the Eastern Empire maintained sound coinage and lasted until the Turkish siege of Byzantium in 1453, roughly a thousand years later. But that’s just coincidence too. Empires that debase money tend to last longer. Really.

Anyway, back to this topic about choice in money. We really don’t need it. We also don’t want it. If we did, we wouldn’t have legal tender laws that prevent choice in money in the first place, would we? After all, is choice a good thing? I try to do some shopping for my family once a week. My wife makes out a helpful shopping list with various staple items like ‘butter’. Then I go to the market and find my way to the butter section and suddenly I’m facing a wall of butter. It’s unbelievable. There’s salted and unsalted; Irish, British or Continental. There’s varying sizes, shapes, qualities, type of cow involved, oh my. And all my wife wrote was ‘butter’. So now I’ve got to get on the phone, I’ve got to ask her to be more specific, and so I call her and she’s changing the baby’s nappy, and she can’t talk, and she’s tired and can’t believe that this is the umpteenth time I’ve gone to do the shopping and yet I always call asking for some clarification, be it for ‘butter’ or ‘detergent’ or ‘kitchen roll’ or God knows what. Look, I’m not a PhD and my wife knows it. So why does she expect me to be able to read her mind?

Anyway, I’m sure I’ve made the point clear that choice is a bad thing. It is just a source of confusion. So in the same way that my wife should just tell me what to purchase (as long as she is specific BTW) the government should tell us what money to use.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s entertain the fantastical notion that legal tender laws were repealed and we could use whatever we desired as money. Nothing would change. I mean, come on, we would just go on using dollars, or euros, or pounds, or yen, or whatever. Who in their right mind would actually bother to evaluate the relative merits of all of these different currencies, or of gold and silver as alternatives? Are some better stores of value than others? Perhaps. But I tell you, for most of us it would be just like looking at that intimidating ‘butter wall’ in the supermarket. We would take one look at it, shudder, and walk away.

Quantitative easing changes nothing. Remember, the PhDs are in charge of our economies and they know exactly how much our money should be worth. Those of us concerned that our money might lose purchasing power are just being paranoid. Choice is dangerous. Think Adam and Eve and you’ll get my point. Those arguing in favour of monetary freedom, of choice in money, of repealing legal tender laws, they’re just like that nasty snake Lillith in the Garden of Eden, the source of all trouble I tell you.

So there you have it. Nowhere would choice be so harmful to commerce as with money itself. Even if legal-tender laws were repealed no doubt we would all continue to prefer using the stuff we already are. So for all you gold bugs out there, go ahead and purchase some jewelry for your loved ones as holiday gifts. But please, drop all the nonsense about using it as money. Imagine you gave your spouse, or your children, or your relatives, gold and silver coins instead. They wouldn’t be able to use them as legal tender; they wouldn’t be able to wear them as jewelry. Their only ‘use’ would be as that four-letter word for Keynesians: Saving: What a way to show a lack of holiday spirit. ‘Tis the season to borrow and spend folks, as indeed it has been since 1971.

PS – For those concerned by the recent, sharp sell off in precious metals, here is some pertinent advice:

(http://dailycapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Keep-Calm-and-Buy-Gold.png)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on December 28, 2012, 09:23:17 PM
All points totally false except for # 5 Monsta.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on December 28, 2012, 09:45:24 PM

Quote
Back to the obvious, we all know that someone with a PhD is smarter than we are. They’ve got the degree to prove it. Some PhDs even have degrees in economics, which is unbelievably complicated

Quote
As I’m not a PhD, I’m not qualified to go around telling people what to do.

Monsta666,

As I don't happen to think either gold or fiat voodoo are adequate explicators of reality, I am necessarily sceptical about PHDs ruling over the bulk of us, least of all economists.  :icon_mrgreen:   

Quote
As I’m not a PhD, I’m not qualified to go around telling people what to do. Sure, I make suggestions from time to time, because I have a Master’s degree. I even make strong recommendations on rare occasion, because I have an honours degree. (If I only had an undergraduate degree, I wouldn’t even make suggestions. Without any degree, I suppose I wouldn’t open my mouth.

How very English.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on December 28, 2012, 09:56:43 PM
All points totally false except for # 5 Monsta.

It was all tongue n' cheek this article. In fact the author of this article actually wrote a book on why we should go back to the gold standard.

Quote
As I’m not a PhD, I’m not qualified to go around telling people what to do. Sure, I make suggestions from time to time, because I have a Master’s degree. I even make strong recommendations on rare occasion, because I have an honours degree. (If I only had an undergraduate degree, I wouldn’t even make suggestions. Without any degree, I suppose I wouldn’t open my mouth.

How very English.

Even though the last bit was meant as a bit of joke (although he is not totally kidding on this view I feel) I do wonder how people will look at these people holding PhD who appear knowledgeable when the whole global economy goes belly up. I don't think the excuse: "I didn't see this coming" will really cut it for these folks...
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on December 28, 2012, 10:10:42 PM
Quote
I do wonder how people will look at these people holding PhD who appear knowledgeable when the whole global economy goes belly up. I don't think the excuse: "I didn't see this coming" will really cut it for these folks...

I council kindness and discretion, should the global economy go belly up. Meanwhile, enjoy yourself. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on December 28, 2012, 10:30:22 PM
MANY Ph.Ds should have no authority whatsoever in organizing up society, because having a Ph.D. is no guarantee the holder has any CFS.

Super Mario Dragon and Helicopter Ben BOTH have Ph.D.s from MIT, but do either of them have any CFS?

Credentialism has always been a Pet Peeve of mine, its just a means of Gate Keeping different professions.

If you are smart enough and jump through all the appropriate hoops, you get to be an arbiter of one sort or another over the way the soicety is administered.  You cannot however make any real changes in HOW it gets administered.  A Ph.D. is  just an appartchik of the system overall.

Respect for their opinions is handed off to them merely because they can drop the Title of "Dr." in front of their names.  For the most part outside of their own field of study, Ph.Ds are as clueless as J6P.

This whole Biz is why I left academia for so long. I really cannot stand this shit.  I am gonna squash down my revulsion for it, because it is practically important to do so, but it really is a bunch of horseshit.

CFS RULES!  If you have CFS, you are far more likely to come up with good answers than 99% of Ph.Ds out there.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on December 28, 2012, 11:33:15 PM
Its a complete misnomer anyway, doctor of philosophy, they are neither doctors nor philosophers. Then there are honorary phd's handed out to people who never attended a single class. pffft. I once did a big thesis but it only means I knew all about that particular subject at that time long ago. Its about ego wanting a big title is all, and academic arguments are also about ego, either holding onto a cherished theory or challenging a theory with your own theory, people put out their publications and weaken their own positions by being so inflexible they wont acknowledge proof that they are wrong on any point let alone their entire theory lol.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Jb on December 31, 2012, 12:22:46 PM
Interview with Bernard Lietaer with interesting comments on gold vs. US dollar: Bernard Lietaer - What About Money - Interview by Lars Schall (best interview ever) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/49640053)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on December 31, 2012, 02:50:11 PM
Jb!  Long time no see!  Howz  the architecture biz going?  I was hoping for some feedback on the Gimmee Shelter Geodesics article from you.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 01, 2013, 03:55:32 AM
Diner's, May I present the one and only Gerald Celente and his Forecast for 2013. Gerald at his best, displaying full force his Summa Cum Laude Degree from RE's College of CFS.

Hope no one is expecting something bright and cheerful.  :laugh:  :icon_study:       HAPPY NEW YEAR!

                             http://www.youtube.com/v/DXJG7nVndiM&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 01, 2013, 04:20:49 AM
Two Words.

Margin Calls.

Bloodbath in PMs coming down the pipe.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 01, 2013, 05:32:24 AM
Two Words.

Margin Calls.

Bloodbath in PMs coming down the pipe.

RE

True of everything sooner or later.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bill Gross: Gold is the Asset To Own for 2013
Post by: g on January 03, 2013, 05:14:32 AM
The head of the world's largest bond fund says gold, not stocks or bonds, is the asset to own in 2013.

Makes sense to me.  :laugh:

                                   http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj (http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bill Gross: Gold is the Asset To Own for 2013
Post by: RE on January 03, 2013, 06:01:23 AM
The head of the world's largest bond fund says gold, not stocks or bonds, is the asset to own in 2013.

Makes sense to me.  :laugh:

                                   http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj (http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj)   :icon_study:

So how come he doesn't liquidate PIMPCO's reams of UST toilet paper in favor of a mountain of gold?

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bill Gross: Gold is the Asset To Own for 2013
Post by: g on January 03, 2013, 06:47:42 AM
The head of the world's largest bond fund says gold, not stocks or bonds, is the asset to own in 2013.

Makes sense to me.  :laugh:

                                   http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj (http://bcove.me/hkjawxfj)   :icon_study:

So how come he doesn't liquidate PIMPCO's reams of UST toilet paper in favor of a mountain of gold?

RE
     

A mutual fund is restricted by it's charter as to what it can buy and the percentage allocation.

I am not sure but seem to remember hearing Pimco is going to start a gold fund or has already done so.

Whatever the case, he is serious and obviously does not make statements like this flippantly and without much contemplation and checking with his attorneys on account of his lofty and highly visible presence in the Financial world.


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bill Gross: Gold is the Asset To Own for 2013
Post by: RE on January 03, 2013, 07:17:48 AM

A mutual fund is restricted by it's charter as to what it can buy and the percentage allocation.

I am not sure but seem to remember hearing Pimco is going to start a gold fund or has already done so.

Whatever the case, he is serious and obviously does not make statements like this flippantly and without much contemplation and checking with his attorneys on account of his lofty and highly visible presence in the Financial world.

Bill Gross is just like the sharks at Goldman.  Publicly, he'll sell Dogshit to the Low Hanging Fruit, while Privately he takes the other side of the trade.  CFFPs Gold Chart shows sell side activity.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 03, 2013, 08:18:19 AM
Bill Gross is just like the sharks at Goldman.  Publicly, he'll sell Dogshit to the Low Hanging Fruit, while Privately he takes the other side of the trade.  CFFPs Gold Chart shows sell side activity.

RE
He most certainly is not a saint, but I think you are being a bit harsh on the gent. He has a fairly decent reputation for what he is; and being a billionaire and pushing 70 years of age, is hardly in need of making a few more bucks.

Don't forget your ingrained hatred of the rich, even if they made their money honestly, it could be clouding your judgement on Mr Gross. Personally, I take him at his word, but have made many errors in judging people, Eliot Spitzer really fooled me, as did John Edwards, so I freely admit you could be correct about him.  :-\

As far as him being just like Goldman Suchs, I vehemently disagree.  They are the greatest pile of shit ever assembled, world class chateau packed manure, pedigreed, aged, labeled,  certified genuine turds, that proudly stand apart from all others. Holy men doing the work of the Lord as they say.


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold and Bonds in Free Fall!
Post by: g on January 04, 2013, 01:55:24 AM
Gold down almost 40 dollars, Treasury Bonds in massive reversal to downside!!!!!!

Minutes of Fed Meeting hint at an early end of QE, many Fed members becoming disenchanted with continuing policy much longer.!!!!! :o ::) :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Famous Quote of Alan Greenspan
Post by: g on January 09, 2013, 05:42:47 AM
Before he became a scuzzball blabbing Fed Speak or Green Speak.  Nothing hard to understand here is there Diners?

CLEAR SIMPLE LANGUAGE

                                               
Quote
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect
savings from confiscation through inflation. ... This is the shabby
secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending
is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the
way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property
rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the
statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."

 :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on January 10, 2013, 11:34:59 AM
Saw this video today and thought of Golden Oxen. I think you would agree with much of the stuff described in this video. They mostly go on about how bad the Fed is and the insidious effect of inflation this bank creates. They attribute the decline of living standards in the past two decades from the Fed printing uncontrolled amounts of money. They say the only way this madness can end is by putting an end to the regimes of fiat currency AND fractional reserve banking with all deposits to be backed by GOLD! The video seems to be around 10 years old but I suppose that could be seen as a positive point as it just proves these people know what they were talking about and saw the crisis developing before it happened.

http://www.youtube.com/v/iYZM58dulPE&fs=1

I do have some disagreements with what was dished out in the video. While "money printing" or more accurate credit expansion has certainly caused problems the decline of living standards was the result of lower energy per capita. They also contend that the period of 1870 to 1913 was the golden era for the US economy and highlight this was the period of gold standard. I do not think that is entirely true as there was the long depression in that period and various other financial panics. In fact the creation of the Fed was created to reduce the number of financial panics (although the video does assert those panics was just propaganda to bring this evil thing into being).

The other issue was they say the temporal removal of the gold standard lead to the crash of 1927. Not sure about that, I do know the US's gold reserves during World War I increased substantially due to the fact many European spent at a ferocious rate and a lot of their gold went to the US to buy goods. In fact if memory serves the US gold reserves doubled around this period. It was this increased supply of gold which eventually fed into the commercial banks and allowed them to greatly expanded the money supply via fractional reserve banking. It was this extra money that fuelled the roaring 20s and lead to the subsequent crash. Gold standard did nothing to prevent this. However what made the depression worse in my eyes was the countries who tried to defend the value of gold as that just lead to more deflation. It is a fact that the countries who recovered first from the depression were the ones who left the gold standard first. This fact was omitted in the video. Instead they blamed the lack of progress on Roosevelt pursuing deficit spending policies. Ahh I have gone off on one, best to watch the video if you are interested...
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 10, 2013, 06:24:14 PM
@ Reply to Monsta

Just finished the video Monsta, of course as you know it is my favorite song so I do not mind hearing it over and over again with different artists renditions and presentations.

Yes, I do agree with most of the points, consider them true, proven valid, and as timely today as when the video was produced.

Your comments, which I know you are sincere about, are the usual ones posed by gold detractors, and people who have learned to live under this era or currency debasement and bankster corruption. You think  you understand it and can stay ahead of it, because you are a brighter bulb than the hapless sap who has been wiped out by these ruthless cunning pricks. The trusting but dumb soul shall we call him.
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.
                                     
                                                               
1807 5 N62
1807 5 N62
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 10, 2013, 08:49:19 PM
Quote
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.

He who has the most gold wins, yes, GO?

Let's not pretend gold has been much less a source of madness, than fiat currency. What, some 116 Spaniards killed some 100,000 Inca? For what? Gold.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 11, 2013, 03:48:20 AM
Quote
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.

He who has the most gold wins, yes, GO?

Let's not pretend gold has been much less a source of madness, than fiat currency. What, some 116 Spaniards killed some 100,000 Inca? For what? Gold.

You surprised me with that one WHD.

Why do the misinformed and not rational  always blame the evil actions of men on inanimate objects?

It was the guns that killed the kids, not the crazy demented SOB's.

Let's ban soda it's what makes fatsos.

Let's ban books, too many bad ideas in them.

Don't forget video games

Do you think if the Inca's had been storing fiat currency, or precious stones, or spices their fate would have been any different.

Is that why we slaughtered and scalped all our Indians WHD, for their gold holdings?

Is that why the State and banksters are on your ass all the time WHD, for your gold or your fiat, or your house?

Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you.   








 



Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: nobody on January 11, 2013, 07:50:51 AM
Ox:  "Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you."   


Ox, Methinks thou doth protest too much. 

Can't have you calling WHD no bankster trickster.
Just can't have it.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on January 11, 2013, 09:47:16 AM
Quote
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.

He who has the most gold wins, yes, GO?

Let's not pretend gold has been much less a source of madness, than fiat currency. What, some 116 Spaniards killed some 100,000 Inca? For what? Gold.

You surprised me with that one WHD.

Why do the misinformed and not rational  always blame the evil actions of men on inanimate objects?

It was the guns that killed the kids, not the crazy demented SOB's.

Let's ban soda it's what makes fatsos.

Let's ban books, too many bad ideas in them.

Don't forget video games

Do you think if the Inca's had been storing fiat currency, or precious stones, or spices their fate would have been any different.

Is that why we slaughtered and scalped all our Indians WHD, for their gold holdings?

Is that why the State and banksters are on your ass all the time WHD, for your gold or your fiat, or your house?

Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you.   

Perhaps we just need to render Caesar??  :icon_scratch:  Or ignore him??

The various large murderous rampages (ethnic cleansings, wars, purges etc.) of reliable history have mostly been carried out under the directions of goobermint (Caesar).  Independent thugs, murderers, terrorists and maniacs cannot compete for body count.

The thefts of goobermint, through warfare, taxation, and through legitimizing bankster fiat (legal tender) or creating their own, also outweigh all theft by independent theives and mafias.  Banksters at present can be considered part of (or owners of) goobermint.

Granting goobermint a monopoly of force leads to unlimited murder rather than safety.   :hammer:

Giving goobermint a monopoly on currency creation eventually leads to unlimited theft, rather than stable markets..

The combination turns humans who survive into slaves.

One answer is to "ban" goobermint! 

Goobermint is parasitic.  The parasite is killing its hosts (us).  Slowly here, quicker elsewhere.

Goobermint is an IDEA.   

If we become aware goobermint is a mistaken idea, and all decide to ignore it, it must collapse.  The large proportion of the populace dependent on goobermint for "bread and circus" currently prevents that.

If goobermint then collapses under its own weight when seriously stressed, perhaps we might be intelligent enough not to allow its recreation??

Serious stress is coming soon to a goobermint near you!!
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 11, 2013, 09:52:57 AM
Ox:  "Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you."   


Ox, Methinks thou doth protest too much. 

Can't have you calling WHD no bankster trickster.
Just can't have it.

I didn't Nobody, I said his blaming the slaughter of the Inca's on gold was a bankster gold bad mouthing tactic. If they held anything the Spanish thought was of value they would have plundered and taken it away. Gold is a metal found in nature like iron or copper or anything else for that matter. It is folly to blame the slaughter of people on an object. People kill people.
Would you blame Gold for the fruitcake following you around? Would you praise and say Gold was the reason the other gent listened to your plea for help?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on January 11, 2013, 10:12:19 AM
]

I didn't Nobody, I said his blaming the slaughter of the Inca's on gold was a bankster gold bad mouthing tactic. If they held anything the Spanish thought was of value they would have plundered and taken it away. Gold is a metal found in nature like iron or copper or anything else for that matter. It is folly to blame the slaughter of people on an object. People kill people. l

Gee, Ox, people kill people. For gold.

Ever read Prescott's "History of the Conquest of Mexico and the conquest of Peru?" Took me the better part of the year, because I needed a dictionary to help translate some of these Spanish quotations, which are extensive. The Spanish were bloodthirsty in a noteworthy way. Cortes and his army and his treatment of Montezuma was one thing; in Peru, Pizarro obliged the Incas to fill a room from floor to ceiling with golden objects. The Spanish displayed the same sort of Contempt for the heathen pagans they encounter that Medieval Christians always displayed to such pagans.

Such is the work of armies marching in the name of the Prince of Peace.

They took silver too, but it was mostly about gold. And such gold as made it back to Spain was squandered in useless, utterly futile wars fought in defense of the vanity of the Spanish crown.

All that glitters, et cetera.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 11, 2013, 11:48:52 AM
Thanks for your input Surly,

After reviewing your comment carefully, my original opinion and statement remain the same. I have a suspicion we are unwittingly talking about two different topics which appear to be the same. Probably due to my inability to state my case properly. 

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on January 11, 2013, 03:46:33 PM
Thanks for your input Surly,

After reviewing your comment carefully, my original opinion and statement remain the same. I have a suspicion we are unwittingly talking about two different topics which appear to be the same. Probably due to my inability to state my case properly.

Or perhaps, my inability to read for comprehension on a damn mobile phone screen. In any event, the depredation is not the gold's fault; Rather, the fault of men and their greed.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on January 11, 2013, 04:29:00 PM
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

Thanks for the kind words. I do see that fiat money is basically a fraud, I just think the gold standard can be manipulated also. I believe when it comes to banksters they have no bounds when it comes to cheating. They will find a way to abuse gold like they do with fiat. Perhaps we can say gold is better because the level of abuse will be less but to think gold cannot be abused is to underestimate how devious the banksters can be. In any case the gold standard will be the preferred option for the future but first the fiat currency must perish.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 11, 2013, 05:12:10 PM
Quote
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.

He who has the most gold wins, yes, GO?

Let's not pretend gold has been much less a source of madness, than fiat currency. What, some 116 Spaniards killed some 100,000 Inca? For what? Gold.

You surprised me with that one WHD.

Why do the misinformed and not rational  always blame the evil actions of men on inanimate objects?

It was the guns that killed the kids, not the crazy demented SOB's.

Let's ban soda it's what makes fatsos.

Let's ban books, too many bad ideas in them.

Don't forget video games

Do you think if the Inca's had been storing fiat currency, or precious stones, or spices their fate would have been any different.

Is that why we slaughtered and scalped all our Indians WHD, for their gold holdings?

Is that why the State and banksters are on your ass all the time WHD, for your gold or your fiat, or your house?

Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you.   

Methinks I pushed a button.(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMtxzrh-teyB5C3Uw6JpPwVI5ER-WO5bqmerj5-PXWtuAEL2-URw)

If only this guy were GOLD:(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2o2TVsKhOTu8bdHcD9Kz1ctrS1FeEc5Pd4yMslR5GgZPgC16zvm-bNA)


Merely suggesting GO, while preferable as a foundation for currency, to exponential fiat rape of the earth, gold is not any cure for the will to power.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 11, 2013, 05:39:56 PM
Quote
Until you come to the realization that Gold is money and Fiat is bankster created ass wipes, one being honest and representing hard work and honest labor, and the other representing trickery corruption, power, control of the weak and uneducated, you will continue to nit pick with these observations that have nothing to do whatsoever with the argument of shall we have the sound honest money history gave us or the ass wipes created by banksters that have enslaved most of us.

You are one exceptionally smart young man, and I feel you will eventually see you are pointing out there are problems with some of the trees in an otherwise CLEAN natural beautiful lush forest.

He who has the most gold wins, yes, GO?

Let's not pretend gold has been much less a source of madness, than fiat currency. What, some 116 Spaniards killed some 100,000 Inca? For what? Gold.

You surprised me with that one WHD.

Why do the misinformed and not rational  always blame the evil actions of men on inanimate objects?

It was the guns that killed the kids, not the crazy demented SOB's.

Let's ban soda it's what makes fatsos.

Let's ban books, too many bad ideas in them.

Don't forget video games

Do you think if the Inca's had been storing fiat currency, or precious stones, or spices their fate would have been any different.

Is that why we slaughtered and scalped all our Indians WHD, for their gold holdings?

Is that why the State and banksters are on your ass all the time WHD, for your gold or your fiat, or your house?

Kindly learn to Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to Gold what is Gold. Your distortions, obfuscations, and muddying the waters are bankster tricks and unworthy of you.   

Methinks I pushed a button.(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMtxzrh-teyB5C3Uw6JpPwVI5ER-WO5bqmerj5-PXWtuAEL2-URw)

If only this guy were GOLD:(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2o2TVsKhOTu8bdHcD9Kz1ctrS1FeEc5Pd4yMslR5GgZPgC16zvm-bNA)


Merely suggesting GO, while preferable as a foundation for currency, to exponential fiat rape of the earth, gold is not any cure for the will to power.  :icon_mrgreen:

Thanks for putting up with me lads, I guess I am a bit fanatical about the precious yellow.

With all my frothing at the mouth and ill manners when the four letter word arises, please try and understand that I am at least honest and sincere and respect all my friends at the Diner for their views. YES Even RE!   :laugh: ::)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on January 11, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
A golden oldie from The Oil Drum (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8697). The poster compares the gold rush of the 19th century to the modern day shale revolution:
-- -------------------------------------------------
The Bakken Boom - A Modern-Day Gold Rush

"That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach." Aldous Huxley

In 2009, U.S. oil production began to climb after declining for 22 of the previous 23 years. The shale oil production of the Bakken formation, which straddles the Montana-North Dakota border and stretches into Canada, has been a significant contributor to this temporary uptick in oil production.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Bakken_Lodgepole_Petroleum_System.png)

Figure 1: Map of the U.S. Bakken-Lodgepole Total Petroleum System (blue), five continuous assessment units (AU) (green), and one conventional assessment unit (yellow) (Source: USGS1)

The Bakken boom has inspired a number of prominent commentators to resurrect the energy independence meme. Daniel Yergin was first at bat, asserting in an essay published by The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904060604576572552998674340.html) that rising prices and emerging technologies (especially hydraulic fracturing) will significantly drive up world liquid fuels production over the coming decade(s). Ultimately, Mr. Yergin argues that tight supplies lead to high fuel prices, and high fuel prices will bring previously inaccessible oil to the market. The trouble with this line of thinking is that high prices aren’t merely a symptom of the supply problem; high prices are the problem.

After Mr. Yergin stole first base through this apparently convincing display of contortionist logic, the next up to bat was Ed Crooks who recently penned an analysis piece for the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/65bfd07a-03b3-11e1-bbc5-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F65bfd07a-03b3-11e1-bbc5-00144feabdc0.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theoildrum.com%2Fnode%2F8697#axzz1eqRTp9GY). In this piece, Mr. Crooks declares that "the growth in U.S. and Canadian production from new sources, coupled with curbs on demand as a result of more efficient use of fuel, is creating a realistic possibility that North America will be able to declare oil independence."

Mr. Crooks thus 'balances' rising production from shale oil and Canadian tar sands against declining consumption, which he mistakenly chalks up to efficiency gains rather than the deleterious effects of the greatest recession since the Great Depression. Beyond this obvious blunder, Mr. Crooks manages an even greater and far more common gaffe by neglecting to integrate decline rates of mature fields into his analysis.

But in a game where the media is the referee and the public doesn’t know the rules, Mr. Crooks manages to get on base by knocking a foul ball into the bleachers. With Yergin on second and Crooks on first, Edward Luce steps up to plate and takes a swat at the energy independence meme, directing the ‘greens’ to look away as "America is entering a new age of plenty" (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a307107c-1364-11e1-9562-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fa307107c-1364-11e1-9562-00144feabdc0.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theoildrum.com%2Fnode%2F8697#axzz1eqRTp9GY). And while the greens looked away, Mr. Luce took a cheap shot at clean energy through an attack on the federal government’s support for the now bankrupt solar panel manufacturer, Solyndra. Luce thus willingly employs the logical fallacy of hasty generalization to sway his audience. Of course the Solyndra bankruptcy is no more generalizable to the solar energy industry than BP's Macondo oil spill is to all offshore oil production, but in a game of marketing one-upmanship one should not expect a balanced and rigorous evaluation of the possibilities.

With the bases loaded and oil prices remaining stubbornly high as tensions in the Middle East and North Africa persist, the crowd is getting anxious. And the crowd should be anxious. After all, tight supplies and rising oil prices strain personal finances and threaten to send our fragile economy back into recession. It is, therefore, unsurprising that the public is as eager to consume the myth of everlasting abundance, as they are eager to consume these scarce resources.

While the Bakken boom offers a hopeful story in which American ingenuity and nature's endless bounty emancipate us from energy oppression and dependence on evil and oppressive foreign dictators, musings of energy independence are premature, misguided, and misleading. The problem with the Bakken story as told by Crooks and others is that it lacks historical context. Referring to recent developments as an energy revolution implies that there are no lessons to be learned from history. But as Mark Twain put it, "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/US-Oil-Production-with-Alaska-Highlighted.png)

Figure 2: U.S. Oil Production showing significant uptick in production and the contribution of Alaska’s North Slope (source: EIA)

Lessons from the California Gold Rush

In 1848, John Marshall discovered gold while constructing John Sutter's sawmill in Coloma, California. Sutter and Marshall attempted to keep the discovery secret, but savvy newspaper publisher and merchant Samuel Brannan soon learned the news. Brannan hurriedly set up a store to sell prospecting tools and provisions and began promoting the discovery in much the same way that the media has been promoting the Bakken. As the news of Marshall’s discovery spread, the California Gold Rush grew to international proportions.

Forty-niners rushed to The Golden State in search of riches, and California's population exploded from 8,000 in 1848 to 93,000 in 1850, a quarter of a million in 1852, and 350,000 by 1860. With the majority of the influx of humanity employed in prospecting, precious few engaged in support activities. But with the rapid accumulation of mineral wealth, imports were easily acquired. Timber, for instance, was sourced from the Pacific Northwest, and the small town of Seattle, which was only settled in 1852, entered a sustained period of rapid exponential growth.

Despite the low productivity of the labor-intensive process of gold panning, annual production grew from just over 1,400 ounces in 1848 to more than 3.9 million ounces by 1852. To put this into perspective, prior to 1848, cumulative U.S. gold production amounted to just over 1 million ounces.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Forty_Niners.png)

Figure 3: Forty-niners panning for gold during the early years of the California Gold Rush (source: no copyright)

The rapid growth in output was driven not by the backbreaking extraction of gold dust so much as by the discovery of colossal gold nuggets like the twin 25-pounders found in Downieville (1850) and on the banks of the Mokelumne River (1848). By comparison, one could spend decades panning and toiling over rockers and sluices manually sorting flakes of gold from stream sediments and never accumulate such an amount.

Of course nuggets are easier to find than flakes, and the great majority were discovered in the first few years. By 1852, only four years after gold was first discovered, California gold production began a rapid descent. Production declined 50% by 1862 and 80% by 1872.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/California_Gold_Production.png)

Figure 4: California gold production showing peak in 1852 followed by rapid decline (Source: Western Mining History – westernmininghistory.com (http://westernmininghistory.com/))

The decline was only barely checked by the adoption of 'hydraulic mining' – a process by which massive amounts of water under intense pressure is used to disintegrate entire hillsides. At the North Bloomfield mine, for example, 60 million gallons of water per day eroded more than 41 million cubic yards of debris between 1866 and 1884. (http://www.sierranevadavirtualmuseum.com/docs/galleries/history/mining/hydraulic.htm (http://www.sierranevadavirtualmuseum.com/docs/galleries/history/mining/hydraulic.htm))

The runoff from 'hydraulicking', as it was called, was directed to sluice boxes where dense gold dust was separated from the other detritus. The displaced earth eventually came to rest in California’s fertile valleys in massive quantities. It has been estimated that hydraulicking generated eight times the amount of 'slickens' (tailings) than was removed during construction of the Panama Canal, which, by the way, employed the same process.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Hydraulic_Minimg.png)

Figure 5: Miners employing the process of hydraulic mining – a process which is prohibited in many gold-rich areas (Source: no copyright, but for more images go here – http://www.sierracollege.edu/ejournals/jsnhb/v2n1/monitors.html (http://www.sierracollege.edu/ejournals/jsnhb/v2n1/monitors.html))

The redirection of such massive amounts of water generated conflict. "Legal ledgers dating back to the early years of the California Gold Rush record complaints that existing water rights were being impinged by the diversion ditches for, and the resultant pollution from, mining operations, especially hydraulic mines." (http://centerwest.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Graduate-There-sGold.pdf (http://centerwest.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Graduate-There-sGold.pdf))

These challenges were consistently defeated on the basis of the 1857 California Supreme Court decision that gold production provided a greater good for the leading interest of the State and its citizens than would have been achieved had water not been diverted.

This all changed in January 1884 when Judge Lorenzo Sawyer issued the nation's first environmental injunction after presiding over the case of Woodruff v. North Bloomfield. Judge Sawyer was swayed by Woodruff’s claim that not only was gold production from the North Bloomfield mine not the leading interest of the State, but that the 1857 decision did not supersede laws that protected agriculture and property owners. And with the scratch of a pen, hydraulic mining operations around Marysville were ordered to halt the discharge of tailings into the Yuba River. Other areas were soon to follow.

During California's successive gold rushes more than ­­a few prospectors became rich, but the vast majority spent more cash purchasing claims and supplies than they earned from the gold dust they sold. The main beneficiaries were the businessmen who profited from the search for gold, rather than the discovery of gold; men like Samuel Brannan and Thomas Craig, the manufacturer of the 'Monitor' nozzles used in hydraulic mining.

Lessons from the Klondike Gold Rush

A half-century later, a similar story unfolded in the Yukon. In 1897, the nation was suffering through the Long Depression, which, ironically, was in large part the result of the decision to revert to the gold standard upon the conclusion of the Civil War. As 'greenbacks' – notes which were not explicitly backed by gold – were pulled from circulation in order to bring the number of dollars back to par with gold reserves, deflation set in. Deflation hit laborers and farmers the hardest and proved to be a significant force behind the populist call for bimetallism.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Gold_Cartoons.png)

Figure 6: These two cartoons illustrate a debate that lingers to this day. On the left, greenbacks are produced to pay debts. On the right, a worker and a farmer struggle for existence as the reversion to the gold standard elevates their debts and devalues their services. (Sources: Left: no copyright; Right: Klondike Gold Rush National Historic Park – a.k.a. The Gold Rush Museum, Seattle, WA)

As a result of the Long Depression, people were desperate for work, but even more desperate for a reason to maintain hope in the face of despair. Much as the Bakken has provided hope for contemporary society, the SS Portland provided hope when it arrived in Seattle in the summer of 1897 with a half a ton of Yukon gold on board. The conditions were primed for an outbreak of gold fever, and just as Samuel Brannan advertised the discovery of gold at Sutter's mill, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer eagerly hyped the Klondike 'prospects' to not only sell newspapers but the entire town as the launch site for stampeders.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Klondike_Headline.png)

Figure 7: The newspaper that heralded the Klondike Gold Rush (Source: University of Washington digital archives)

The next day the Klondike gold rush commenced as the steamship Al-Ki departed with a full deck of stampeders and 350 tons of supplies, including foodstuffs, pack animals, prospecting equipment, and clothing, like C.C. Filson oiled canvas jackets and pants. These garments, which were impregnated with a mixture of paraffin wax and other oils, proved to be as waterproof as they were stiff – the stiffness resulting from the fact that the paraffins, which are solid at 'normal' temperatures, are nearly impenetrable under arctic conditions.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Cooper_and_Levy.png)

Figure 8: Supplies lining the sidewalk outside Seattle-based Klondike outfitter, Cooper & Levy (Source: The Gold Rush Museum)

The Klondike Stampede caused demand for steamships to mushroom and Seattle quickly rose to become one of the nation's preeminent ship building communities. And as the demand for steamships spiked, so too did demand for timber and coal, two of the Puget Sound’s most dominant industries. To this day, Alaska depends almost exclusively on the Puget Sound for the delivery of groceries, consumer goods, manufactures, and other commodities.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Moran_Bros_Shipyard.png)

Figure 9: Steamships under construction in Seattle’s Moran Bros. shipyard (Source: University of Washington digital collections and MOHAI – Museum of History and Industry)

As was the case in California, Klondike gold discoveries fell just as quickly as they had climbed. Between 1896 and 1900, annual discoveries rose from $300,000 to more than $22 million, but by 1904 production had fallen to less than half the peak value, and by 1907 production had declined more than 80%. And just as the new and ecologically disruptive technology of hydraulic mining failed to arrest or reverse declining production in California, the introduction of hydraulic mining and large scale dredging failed to maintain the pace of discovery made by the first few waves of stampeders who employed far less technologically advanced and capital intensive processes.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Klondike_Gold_Production.png)

Figure 10: Klondike gold production (Source: Data from J.P. Hutchins, January 4, 1908, "Klondike District", The Engineering and Mining Journal)

After studying dredging operations in the Klondike, mining engineer J.P. Hutchins concluded, "The most satisfactory returns were from a dredge working an unfrozen area in the flood-plain of the Klondike River; this was installed before the large corporation, now so prominent in the Klondike, became interested. The dredges installed since that time have been very disappointing in returns. Three powerful dredges began operation on the lower Bonanza Creek, but the experience there has been most discouraging." (J.P. Hutchins, January 4, 1908, "Klondike District", Engineering and Mining Journal on January 4, 1908)

While dredging was not able to arrest declining production, the process certainly made an impression on the landscape. Tailings moraines provide a lasting visual testament to the efforts made by dredge operators, who quite literally left no stone unturned.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Klondike_Dredging.png)

Figure 11: In order to dredge in the Yukon, steam had to be injected into the frozen earth. The thawed sand and gravel was then dredged to the bedrock, sorted in the floating dredge, and deposited into immense tailings that can be seen from space (Sources: Clockwise from top: Dredge No.4 National Historic Site (http://www.flickr.com/photos/capncanuck/2972017631/#) State of Alaska Guide (http://www.stateofalaskaguide.com/alaska-and-yukon.htm (http://www.stateofalaskaguide.com/alaska-and-yukon.htm)); Google Maps)

The similarity in California and Klondike gold production curves was not lost on Mr. Hutchins who further wrote, "[Klondike] figures reveal a marked similarity between this and other placer districts not only in respect to the rapid increase of the annual output to a maximum a few years after the discovery of the placers, but also in the rapid decrease in the output after the maximum figure had been reached. It is of passing interest to note that in both California and Klondike, the annual production reached a maximum the fourth year after discovery. These figures were more than $80,000,000 for California and more than $22,000,000 for Klondike."

As historian Pierre Burton put it, "The statistics regarding the Klondike stampede are diminishing ones. One hundred thousand persons, it is estimated, actually set out on the trail; some thirty or forty thousand reached Dawson. Only about one half of this number bothered to look for gold, and of these only four thousand found any. Of the four thousand, a few hundred found gold in quantities large enough to call themselves rich. And out of these fortunate men only the merest handful managed to keep their wealth. The Kings of Eldorado toppled from their thrones one by one."

While gold production continues to this day, the Klondike gold rush ended in the summer of 1899, when over the course of a single week, more than 20,000 'sourdoughs' left the Yukon on news that gold had been discovered on the beaches of Nome, Alaska. The Nome gold rush, which was similarly short-lived, is widely cited as the last gold rush of importance, but only by those whose narrow definition excludes black gold.

The Rush for Black Gold on Alaska's North Slope

In 1902, Alaska produced its first barrel of oil, and in 1953, the discovery of oil in a small town West of Fairbanks ushered in the modern era of oil production. In 1957 oil was discovered on the Kenai Peninsula, and in 1959, one hundred years after Colonel Drake produced the first barrel of oil in Pennsylvania, British Petroleum (BP) began prospecting for oil along Alaska’s expansive North Slope.

BP was soon joined by Atlantic Richfield Company (ARCO), who in 1968 discovered Prudhoe Bay, the oilfield equivalent of a 25-pound gold nugget. The Prudhoe Bay field is estimated to have had 25 billion barrels of crude before extraction commenced in 1977, making it the largest field in North America. Another major US field, Kuparuk with reserves of 6 billion barrels is also on the North Slope and was discovered in 1969 by Sinclair Oil.

In order to transport oil from the remote North Slope, the Trans Alaska Pipeline System (TAPS) was proposed, but construction did not begin until 1974, after 515 federal permits and 832 state permits were approved. Construction was completed in 1977. At peak construction, in October 1975, 51,000 direct and contract employees were at work on various aspects of the 800-mile pipeline. With construction costs totaling roughly $8 billion, small fortunes were made long before the first barrel of North Slope oil was produced, and once again the Puget Sound economy benefitted as nearly all equipment and supplies were shipped through Washington’s seaports.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Alaska_Pipeline.png)

Figure 12: Milepost 562 along the 800-mile TransAlaska Pipeline System (Source: Wikipedia)

Production from the Prudhoe Bay field peaked in 1988, and production from the Kuparuk field peaked in 1992. With these two fields dominating North Slope production, the black gold flowing through the TAPS then fell into decline after only 11 years of operation.

Eleven years after the peak, North Slope production had declined to less than half the peak volume. To use Mr. Hutchins's words, it is of passing interest to note that in California, the Klondike, and Alaska, production had declined to roughly half the maximum value within the same period of time it took to reach the peak. Today, production is only slightly more than 24% of the peak, and it continues to decline. Through June this year production was 35,000 barrels per day less than the average production rate in 2010.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/North_Slope_Production.png)

Figure 13: Source: Oil and Gas Production Forecasting: Presentation to the Senate Finance Committee, February 16, 2010, Alaska Department of Revenue.

Without some type of North Slope game-changer, production will by decade's end decline to the minimum TAPS operating capacity of 350,000 bpd. Currently, it is believed that a flurry of new projects including projects that are already under development and those that are under evaluation will significantly slow the rate of decline.

One such project is BP's Liberty project, which is currently a couple of years behind schedule and delayed indefinitely. If or when the Liberty project comes online, North Slope production will be goosed by an estimated 40,000 bpd, which will essentially add one year to the operating life of the TAPS. There is a danger associated with making hasty generalizations from the performance of just one field, but if the technologically challenging Liberty project is indicative of challenges that will be encountered elsewhere, it stands to reason that other new projects may encounter similarly long delays. And if this is the case, production will decline more quickly than is currently being anticipated.

The problem of declining rates of North Slope production is compounded by the engineering specifications of the pipeline system. At lower flow rates, the length of time required for a barrel of oil to make the trip from Prudhoe Bay to Valdez lengthens. In 2008, the trip took 12.9 days, and the temperature of the crude, which entered the TAPS at 110 degrees Fahrenheit, fell to just over 55 degrees by the time it reached Valdez. Longer transport times subject the oil to low ambient temperatures for longer periods, and as the temperature of the crude in the pipeline falls, paraffins begin to precipitate at ever increasing rates. The paraffins, which were once used (and still are used) to waterproof Klondikers’ jackets, behave much like arterial plaque when they precipitate in pipelines.

Longer transit times also allow emulsified water to separate from the crude. As the water separates it collects in low spots where it greatly accelerates pipeline corrosion. Under the right/wrong circumstances the water can freeze, thereby constricting flow, or worse yet, breaking free and damaging pumps.

Additionally, the Low Flow Study Project Team hired by Alyeska Pipeline Service Company explains that, "Lower crude oil temperatures will permit soils surrounding the buried portions of the pipeline to freeze, which will create ice lenses in certain soil conditions. Ice lenses could cause differential movement of the pipe via frost heave mechanisms. Assuming no heating of the crude oil, ice lens formation is predicted to occur at a throughput of 350,000 BPD. Unacceptable pipe displacement limits and possible overstress conditions in the pipe would be reached at a flow volume of 300,000 BPD."

If the long-term rate of decline remains fixed at 35,000 bpd, and it makes financial sense to re-engineer the TAPS to handle lower volumes, only 239,000 bpd will be produced in 2020. If it does not make financial sense, and the decline is not significantly slowed by production from new fields, North Slope output will fall to zero. Under this worst case scenario, the annualized rate of decline would be roughly 70,000 barrels per day.

Consequently, in order for U.S. oil production to remain flat in the face of North Slope declines, which have persisted for 22 years despite the fact that no fewer than nine significant fields have been brought online over this period, production elsewhere in the U.S. needs to increase by 35,000 or 70,000 bpd. This will be a challenge because the oilfield equivalents of colossal gold nuggets have, by and large, already been discovered.

There are exceptions, of course. It was estimated that the 1 billion barrel Thunder Horse field in the Gulf of Mexico would produce at a maximum rate of 250,000 bpd. Unfortunately, production peaked within 10 months and then fell into rapid decline.

The Rush for Shale Oil

The Bakken formation is estimated by the USGS to have an impressive 4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil in place. (3 to 4.3 Billion Barrels of Technically Recoverable Oil Assessed in North Dakota and Montana’s Bakken Formation—25 Times More Than 1995 Estimate— (http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911)) While this is a significant amount, it should be pointed out that the Prudhoe Bay field was more than 6 times the Bakken's size, and Kuparuk was 1.5 times larger. It also bears mentioning that the Bakken oil is trapped in two layers of impermeable shale and a layer of 'tight' sandstone. In order to extract oil from the middle sandstone layer, producers utilize the process of hydraulic fracturing pioneered by natural gas producers. The process of hydraulic fracturing should not be confused with hydraulic mining, though similarities abound.

Hydraulic fracturing, or fracing, involves pumping millions of gallons of fracing fluid (a mixture of water, propants, and chemicals) per well into the earth under pressures great enough to fracture rock and release the oil. As a consequence of the process, flow rates from shale oil wells are low compared to the high flow rates of wells tapped into large conventional fields.

Whereas conventional wells like those in the Thunder Horse reservoir produce at a rate of 40,000 bpd, only 14 of the nearly 9,000 wells in the Bakken produce more than 800 barrels per day, and the average well produces only 52 bpd. Even at 800 barrels per day, 50 Bakken wells would need to be drilled for each Liberty/Thunder Horse size well, and nearly 800 of the average size Bakken wells would be required.

In order to arrest North Slope declines, 700 average size Bakken wells will need to be completed each and every year.

Due to the massive quantity of water required by the hydraulic fracturing process, the chemical cocktail that is added to the water to create fracing fluid, and the massive amount of dangerous wastewater generated by the process, environmental activists, or 'fractivists' as I like to call them, oppose hydraulic fracturing. Thus far, fractivists have turned a blind eye to Bakken production, choosing instead to focus on natural gas fracing in the far more populated areas along the Marcellus Shale formation that runs along the East Coast.

Fractivists have attained some level of success in New York, Pennsylvania, and France. The fractivists' success has engaged the oil and gas industry's fight or flight response, and elicited a relentless pro-fracing propaganda campaign. It appears as if this campaign has successfully enlisted prominent boosters who hold court in the Wall Street Journal and The Financial Times.

Regardless of whether or not fractivists target the Bakken, there is no escaping the fact that the Bakken wells are merely flakes of gold dust, and Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk are the oilfield equivalents of colossal nuggets. And history teaches us that replacing nuggets with dust is at best a stopgap measure. While gold production in California continues to this day, production will never climb to anywhere near the peak reached in 1852 despite the fact that gold now trades at $1,800 per ounce and extraction technologies have improved by leaps and bounds.

Within this historical context we can sift the Bakken hope from the hype. The good news is that Bakken output rose from 130,000 bpd in June 2003 to over half a million barrels per day today, and is well on its way to producing a 750,000 barrels per day of high quality shale oil. Of course an analogous statement could have been said of California gold production in 1853, Klondike gold production in 1899, and North Slope oil production in 1987, so the danger of extrapolating past trends into the future is clear. That said, the growth rate is impressive.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/North_Dakota_Production.png)

Figure 14: North Dakota oil production showing the effect of unconventional oil production from the Bakken formation (Sources: EIA and the North Dakota Department of Mineral Resources)

Every silver lining has a cloud, and the bad news is that Montana production peaked in December 2006 and has already declined to 62% of the peak volume. This decline in Montana’s production indicate that what is commonly billed as a homogeneous geologic formation is in fact heterogeneous. The pattern of production suggests that the region of economically viable and productive wells is not ubiquitous, but rather concentrated in a few important areas. (Link for more on this topic (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8258))

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/ND_MT_production.png)

Figure 15: North Dakota and Montana oil production – one formation, diverging trends (Sources: EIA and the North Dakota Department of Mineral Resources)

The Bakken narrative being constructed by the likes of Yergin, Crooks, and Luce is hopeful, yet incomplete. Production from North Dakota is climbing rapidly, but production in Montana and, more importantly, Alaska's North Slope is declining. When taken together, a picture resembling the shadow of truth emerges. The Bakken boom has simply hidden a much more troubling trend; it has nearly perfectly balanced out the decline in North Slope output.

(http://www.theoildrum.com/files/AK_ND_MT_production.png)

Figure 16: Aggregate oil production from Alaska’s North Slope and the Bakken (Source: EIA and the North Dakota Department of Mineral Resources)

Parting Thoughts

George Orwell wrote that, "He who controls the present, controls the past, and he who controls the past, controls the future." There is more than a nugget of truth in this statement. The future is guided by the stories which shape our imagination and our perception of what is possible, and therefore what is pursued.

Just like Samuel Brannan marketed the California gold rush and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer marketed the Klondike gold rush, the Bakken boom is being boosted by those that stand to benefit from production, namely the oil and gas producers, oil field services companies, and the producers of inputs consumed during the process. These entities recognize their vulnerability to fractivism, and I suspect that they are behind the recent surge in boosteristic promotion of the energy independence meme.

The Bakken narrative being constructed by its proponents thrusts forth two main points. First, recent technological advances have opened the door to bountiful energy supply, so much so, that talk of energy independence has re-emerged. Second, alternative/renewable/clean energy requires subsidies that we (i.e. the U.S.) can't afford, that the public doesn't want, and that go against the free market ideology that Milton Fiedman chipped into the impenetrable stone walls that fortify the Chicago School. From these propositions it is concluded that shale oil and gas are not simply the best option for our non-negotiable way of life, they are the only option.

This narrative is enticing to many politicians and much of the public because it fits into a greater national narrative that holds at its core the primacy of market-led American ingenuity. When faced with a challenge, American entrepreneurs always emerge victorious, resource limits be damned! Or so the thinking goes.

A sober reading of history, however, suggests that the Bakken success story fits a well-established pattern in which every natural resource boom is followed by an inevitable decline.

Sometimes history provides us with lessons that we don’t want to learn. Gold dust can't replace colossal nuggets, shale oil can't replace giant conventional oil fields, and wishful thinking and ideological fortitude is no substitute for dispassionate analytical rigor.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 12, 2013, 04:48:30 AM
Thanks for that posting Monsta, needless to say I enjoyed the gold rush history immensely. It is amazing what a part old Sutters Creek played in the history and development of our country.

Just one simple thought in reference to the article, all that Gold that was mined is still pretty much with us in one form or another, while the oil and gas are gone forever.
                                                         
954

                                                         
$
          click image to enlarge

                                                         
$(
          click image to enlarge

                                                         
157124 01
157124 01

                                                         
California Gold Rush US postal stamp issued 1999
California Gold Rush US postal stamp issued 1999
Title: The Little Match Girl Revisited
Post by: RE on January 13, 2013, 01:18:09 AM
Just one simple thought in reference to the article, all that Gold that was mined is still pretty much with us in one form or another, while the oil and gas are gone forever.                                           

Another Simple Thought.  There is a REASON for that.  A Pile of Gold can do no WORK, while a Pile of Coal CAN do work.  You cannot Burn Gold, hell you cannot even chemically combine it with other elements, it is Inert.  It really does nothing but exist.  OK, it is a good conductor, but so is Copper and not near so rare, and besides if there isn't Coal to burn to generate Electricity, you won't need any Good Conductors anyhow.

A Pile of Gold cannot heat your McHovel, it cannot drive a Steam Locomotive along a Rail line, it cannot get your SUV over to Walmart either.  You can't even EAT it!

Remember the "Little Match Girl" of Hans Christian Andersen?  On that Cold Dutch Night when she joined Grandma in the Great Beyond, which would have been of more Value to the Little Match Girl?  A Lump of Gold or a Lump of Coal to light up with her Matches?

The Little Match Girl

(http://www.beautifulsms.com/martch_girl3.jpg)

Quote from: Hans Christian Andersen
Most terribly cold it was; it snowed, and was nearly quite dark, and evening-- the last evening of the year. In this cold and darkness there went along the street a poor little girl, bareheaded, and with naked feet. When she left home she had slippers on, it is true; but what was the good of that? They were very large slippers, which her mother had hitherto worn; so large were they; and the poor little thing lost them as she scuffled away across the street, because of two carriages that rolled by dreadfully fast.

One slipper was nowhere to be found; the other had been laid hold of by an urchin, and off he ran with it; he thought it would do capitally for a cradle when he some day or other should have children himself. So the little maiden walked on with her tiny naked feet, that were quite red and blue from cold. She carried a quantity of matches in an old apron, and she held a bundle of them in her hand. Nobody had bought anything of her the whole livelong day; no one had given her a single farthing.

She crept along trembling with cold and hunger--a very picture of sorrow, the poor little thing!

The flakes of snow covered her long fair hair, which fell in beautiful curls around her neck; but of that, of course, she never once now thought. From all the windows the candles were gleaming, and it smelt so deliciously of roast goose, for you know it was New Year's Eve; yes, of that she thought.

In a corner formed by two houses, of which one advanced more than the other, she seated herself down and cowered together. Her little feet she had drawn close up to her, but she grew colder and colder, and to go home she did not venture, for she had not sold any matches and could not bring a farthing of money: from her father she would certainly get blows, and at home it was cold too, for above her she had only the roof, through which the wind whistled, even though the largest cracks were stopped up with straw and rags.

Her little hands were almost numbed with cold. Oh! a match might afford her a world of comfort, if she only dared take a single one out of the bundle, draw it against the wall, and warm her fingers by it. She drew one out. "Rischt!" how it blazed, how it burnt! It was a warm, bright flame, like a candle, as she held her hands over it: it was a wonderful light. It seemed really to the little maiden as though she were sitting before a large iron stove, with burnished brass feet and a brass ornament at top. The fire burned with such blessed influence; it warmed so delightfully. The little girl had already stretched out her feet to warm them too; but--the small flame went out, the stove vanished: she had only the remains of the burnt-out match in her hand.

She rubbed another against the wall: it burned brightly, and where the light fell on the wall, there the wall became transparent like a veil, so that she could see into the room. On the table was spread a snow-white tablecloth; upon it was a splendid porcelain service, and the roast goose was steaming famously with its stuffing of apple and dried plums. And what was still more capital to behold was, the goose hopped down from the dish, reeled about on the floor with knife and fork in its breast, till it came up to the poor little girl; when--the match went out and nothing but the thick, cold, damp wall was left behind. She lighted another match. Now there she was sitting under the most magnificent Christmas tree: it was still larger, and more decorated than the one which she had seen through the glass door in the rich merchant's house.

Thousands of lights were burning on the green branches, and gaily-colored pictures, such as she had seen in the shop-windows, looked down upon her. The little maiden stretched out her hands towards them when--the match went out. The lights of the Christmas tree rose higher and higher, she saw them now as stars in heaven; one fell down and formed a long trail of fire.

"Someone is just dead!" said the little girl; for her old grandmother, the only person who had loved her, and who was now no more, had told her, that when a star falls, a soul ascends to God.

She drew another match against the wall: it was again light, and in the lustre there stood the old grandmother, so bright and radiant, so mild, and with such an expression of love.

"Grandmother!" cried the little one. "Oh, take me with you! You go away when the match burns out; you vanish like the warm stove, like the delicious roast goose, and like the magnificent Christmas tree!" And she rubbed the whole bundle of matches quickly against the wall, for she wanted to be quite sure of keeping her grandmother near her. And the matches gave such a brilliant light that it was brighter than at noon-day: never formerly had the grandmother been so beautiful and so tall. She took the little maiden, on her arm, and both flew in brightness and in joy so high, so very high, and then above was neither cold, nor hunger, nor anxiety--they were with God.

But in the corner, at the cold hour of dawn, sat the poor girl, with rosy cheeks and with a smiling mouth, leaning against the wall--frozen to death on the last evening of the old year. Stiff and stark sat the child there with her matches, of which one bundle had been burnt. "She wanted to warm herself," people said. No one had the slightest suspicion of what beautiful things she had seen; no one even dreamed of the splendor in which, with her grandmother she had entered on the joys of a new year.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 13, 2013, 04:36:20 AM
It remains to be seen how effective thousands of tons of gold will do in challenging for world reserve currency status. China has stockpiled 2000 tons and is set to double this in order to try and transition. They might find that they should have spent the money on an arms race.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 06:18:03 AM
Quote
Another Simple Thought.  There is a REASON for that.  A Pile of Gold can do no WORK, while a Pile of Coal CAN do work.  You cannot Burn Gold, hell you cannot even chemically combine it with other elements, it is Inert.  It really does nothing but exist.

One of the reasons that it evolved as money no doubt, the fact that it is inert.

It is very useful, you just don't understand it that's all. One of its more prominent uses was the keeping of banksters honest, which is why you were brainwashed into your state of hatred against the inert harmless noble metal.

As to the innocent statement I made referring to the Gold still being with us and all the oil mentioned in Monsta's article
being gone for ever, it was a reference to peak oil and the enormous amount of oil we have used already.

Your mind is so demented and crazed that I have a picture of a freezing starving little girl in front of me for a reply. If I had realized the extent of your madness, I would have been more specific, forgive me.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: A Few Uses For Gold
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 06:22:12 AM
Gold Uses

Gold is an ancient metal of wealth, commerce and beauty, but it also has a number of unique properties that make it invaluable to industy. These properties include:

    Resistance to corrosion
    Electrical conductivity
    Ductility and malleability
    Infrared (heat) reflectivity
    Thermal conductivity

Gold’s superior electrical conductivity, malleability, and resistance to corrosion have made it vital in components used in a wide range of electronic products and equipment, including computers, telephones, cellular phones, and home appliances.

Gold has extraordinarily high reflective powers that are relied upon in the shielding that protects spacecrafts and satellites from solar radiation and in industrial and medical lasers that use gold-coated reflectors to focus light energy. And because gold is biologically inactive, it has become a vital tool for medical research and is even used in the direct treatment of arthritis and other intractable diseases.

The demand for gold in industry is steady and growing. The supply of gold from stored inventory and from mining operations is limited and will remain so. Demand from investors who want to posses this precious metal is steady, and increases during periods of world crises or instability. The result is a market with much more upside potential than down.

Gold is an excellent hedge against inflation, and protects earnings for the future. Modern investors can invest in gold the traditional way — by purchasing gold bullion in the form of bars or coins — or they can trade in gold or gold futures electronically, or by investing in gold mining or refining companies.
Learn More

To learn more about the uses for gold, please visit:

    The Gold Institute                :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 06:41:26 AM
It remains to be seen how effective thousands of tons of gold will do in challenging for world reserve currency status. China has stockpiled 2000 tons and is set to double this in order to try and transition. They might find that they should have spent the money on an arms race.

I certainly don't have to wait to find out, the outcome is evident imho.

As to the arms race, that is what the Gold stockpiling is about as well. Even one of those half assed Generals on MSM talk shows will tell you not to start a war without a substantial pile of the precious international medium of exchange. You would be surprised at how little the fiat currency of a nation on the losing end of a battle will buy on international markets.

The Chinese know how to play chess very well, don't underestimate them.

Confucius Say " A Fool and His Gold Are Soon Parted."
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 13, 2013, 04:58:23 PM


It is very useful, you just don't understand it that's all. One of its more prominent uses was the keeping of banksters honest

What Planet was that on? "Bankster" and "Honest" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.  Gold never kept any bankster honest, they just lie about how much is in the safe or lie about the purity of the coin.  In fact there were far more money panics through the Free Banking Era when Gold functioned as Money than in the Central Banking Era.

Make Gold Money, and the Little Match Girls will be freezing to death on every streetcorner.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 08:39:59 PM
Quote
What Planet was that on? "Bankster" and "Honest" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.  Gold never kept any bankster honest, they just lie about how much is in the safe or lie about the purity of the coin.

I must admit RE, you got me on that one, a clear error on my part. Thanks for correcting me.  :-[

May I rephrase my erroneous comment and say it acted as an impediment to their raping, pillaging, and sodomizing of the sheeple.

Once they removed it from the system of printing and credit they were able to continue their Fuck Fest totally unrestrained, a total unrestrained heaven of carnage and debauchery. It was a Divine Orgy, as they went about doing God's work as they called it.
                       
                                         
Lloyd Blankfein
Lloyd Blankfein
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 13, 2013, 08:56:34 PM

May I rephrase my erroneous comment and say it acted as an impediment to their raping, pillaging, and sodomizing of the sheeple.

As Impediments go, it was highly Unsuccessful throughout History.  Roman Banksters indebted Egypt, and they were all working with gold back then.  John D. Rockefeller Monopolized the Energy Industry AND Bankstering, and we had a Gold Standard then too.

Where in History can you find ANY Impediment whatsoever to Bankster Criminality successfully implemented with utilizing a Gold Standard?  It has never happenned.  It is pure FAITH to believe it would make any difference whatsoever here.  You can no more show this to be true than you can show Methuselah lived for 900 years.  Total Faith Based Belief.  Rubbish.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 09:07:56 PM

May I rephrase my erroneous comment and say it acted as an impediment to their raping, pillaging, and sodomizing of the sheeple.

As Impediments go, it was highly Unsuccessful throughout History.  Roman Banksters indebted Egypt, and they were all working with gold back then.  John D. Rockefeller Monopolized the Energy Industry AND Bankstering, and we had a Gold Standard then too.

Where in History can you find ANY Impediment whatsoever to Bankster Criminality successfully implemented with utilizing a Gold Standard?  It has never happenned.  It is pure FAITH to believe it would make any difference whatsoever here.  You can no more show this to be true than you can show Methuselah lived for 900 years.  Total Faith Based Belief.  Rubbish.

RE
  You don't understand the difference between printing something, and having to perform labor for something.

It is a common error of Ivy school academics that know nothing of the real world. Princeton educated are the current crew of dick heads that brought us to our current state. Doctors of Economics is what they are called.

                                       
Saviors of The World
Saviors of The World
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 13, 2013, 09:19:47 PM
The Little Match Girl Burns her Last Match
(http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/5944200/il_fullxfull.181798719.jpg)

While Scrooge McDuck counts the Gold in the Basement Safe
(http://thebillfold.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Scrooge.jpg)
Scrooge McDuck is HAPPY, he is so SAFE.

The Little Match Girl is so SAD, she is going to DIE.

Scrooge McDuck's aging arthritic fingers dance nimbly over the keboard extolling the virtues of Gold, while the Little Match Girl's Toes Freeze Off.

Top THAT one with Alfred E. Newman, if you can.  LOL.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 13, 2013, 09:41:41 PM
Quote
Top THAT one with Alfred E. Newman, if you can.  LOL.

Shouldn't you be teaching the children how to game the system, and get in the unemployment and food stamp line teacher? That is obviously where your strength in Economic knowledge is. Gold is something you need lot's more schooling in. Try something different than an Ivy league school, the Austrian school might be a better choice as merely a suggestion.
                                                 
Golden Oxen
Golden Oxen
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Bundesbank to pull gold from New York and Paris
Post by: g on January 15, 2013, 05:06:51 PM
Bundesbank to pull gold from New York and Paris in watershed moment
Germany’s Bundesbank is to repatriate gold reserves held abroad to tighten control and combat currency crises in the future, pulling a chunk of its holdings from New York and all its bullion from Paris.

 The move marks an extraodinary breakdown in trust between leading central banks and has set off ferment among gold enthusiasts, with some comparing it with France’s withdrawal of gold from the US under President Charles de Gaulle as the Bretton Woods currency system crumbled in the early 1970s.

Handelsblatt said the Bundesbank will announce on Wednesday that it intends to relocate the gold to vaults in Frankfurt, said by insiders to include parts of the old archive library. Germany has 3,396 tons of gold worth roughly £115bn, the world’s second-largest holding after the US. Most of the reserves were stored abroad for safety during the Cold War.

The bank holds an estimated 45pc of its gold at the US Federal Reserve in New York, and 11pc at the Banque de France, lower than originally thought.

A report by Germany’s budget watchdog in October revealed that the bank halved its holding in London a decade ago, a period when the Bank of England was selling part of Britain’s gold at the bottom of the market to buy euros.

                               
gold 2452762b
gold 2452762b


www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/9804444/Bundesbank-to-pull-gold-from-New-York-and-Paris-in-watershed-moment.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/9804444/Bundesbank-to-pull-gold-from-New-York-and-Paris-in-watershed-moment.html)    :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News : The Emperor Has No Clothes!
Post by: g on January 17, 2013, 05:32:15 AM
To Diners who may be following the Gold Story, there was a major development last night that has gold bugs throughout the world in absolute tizzy.

Those following the thread have seen my postings of the importance of Germany wanting their Gold back at the request of many of it's concerned citizens.

The long awaited statement read to the effect, they are going to get only 19% of it back over a 7 year period. You may interpret it as you wish, my view on the matter is posted below. This is a momentous development that bears close watching.

May I add that this is in no way a recommendation for anyone to run out and buy Gold this morning. The skunks that lord over us in secrecy and concerted manipulations may smash it for a while to keep the sheeple from running over a cliff. Whatever the case my view is the obvious.

                                         
2009 01 30 Emperor has no Gold!
2009 01 30 Emperor has no Gold!
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 17, 2013, 12:07:16 PM
GO,

So are you Gold Bugs assuming this means Germany is saying to the world, a fiat currency collapse is imminent, after which who holds the gold will be who controls it?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 17, 2013, 02:12:37 PM
GO,

So are you Gold Bugs assuming this means Germany is saying to the world, a fiat currency collapse is imminent, after which who holds the gold will be who controls it?

No WHD, what I am saying is the Gold bugs that have claimed the Gold was not there and had been leased out or sold by the skunks to depress the price were now shown to be most likely correct. May I refer you to GATA for intensive research on this topic.
This also calls into question the suspicions of congressman Ron Paul, who has repeatedly called for an audit of the Gold in Fort Knox, only to be rebuffed and told to take a hike.

This is a replay of the famous  De Gaulle move on Gold in a slightly different variation History never repeats exactly but rhymes.

The implications of this are enormous for Gold and it's price, I will try to list just a few here.

The Gold holdings of the Central banks have often been used as a threat to be dumped onto the heads of the Gold Bugs if they got out of line and obviously seems to have been used in that manner already

Gold is viewed as a last resort asset by many, including myself; who thought it would come into play as soon as someone with a brain took charge of the world's fiat failure, and decided enough bullshit was enough and it was time to restore stability and sanity to a fiat regime gone wild and crazed. That hope is now dashed.

The German government and it's people are in fact what is holding the stitches together of the torn Euro, largely because they were the possessors of the world's second largest Gold hoard, that concept has of course been shattered by this revelation.

The Gold and amount of it in Fort Knox will now come to the forefront again, as well as central banks around the world scrambling to repatriate and count their gold holdings held around the world, such as Hugo Chavez did last year. He threatened to shut off the oil to the US if the gold was not sent to him promptly, and every oz was delivered promptly.

The German government has shown themselves to be inept and shamefully conned out of their Gold. In my opinion we can expect an outcry from the German public over this matter, most likely political change, and an unwelcome amount of chaos that Europe and he Euro do not need at this critical time in their history.

I am reminded of a lesson an old Gold Bug taught me in my youth about the Arabs, who play into this drama as well.
Quote
The Bedouins are too smart to ever bury their Gold under and another man's tent
[/b]. Vern as always was correct in these matters and my suspicion is the Germans wish they had learned it.

This list of course goes on and on. Why is it timed with Geithner's  departure?

Was any of the Gold stolen by the skunks?

What is Putin, a massive buyer of Gold lately thinking as he reads and ponders this item?

How about the Chinese, sitting on 3 trillion dollars of Fiat?

What are the Japanese thinking about all this as the watch and listen to Abe vow to destroy the exchange value of the Yen and carry out the action right before their eyes.

Feel you are getting my drift by now, trust you can see the can of worms that has been opened.

As to your question is this about Germany predicting an imminent fiat collapse?  No, the fiat has already collapsed, that is what the Financial Crises was all about. You just didn't notice because you, like all Americans have the luxury of operating under a fiat currency which by default is still the world's reserve currency.

As RE has repeatedly pointed out the Dollar is a beneficiary, in a strange perverse way, from these collapses of other currency regimes.  My sincere view is the clock is ticking away to the alarm setting rapidly on that happy state of affairs.

                                               
                                                            http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9r1NLMFixo&fs=1





Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Germany Pays a Visit to the US
Post by: g on January 17, 2013, 03:14:38 PM
 
Thursday, January 17, 2013
Germany Pays A Visit To The United States

Press Release from the Bundesbank:  LINK
       
Knock Knock.

Ben Bernanke:   Who's there?

Bundesbank (German Central Bank):   We would like our  gold
                                                               back please.

Ben Bernanke:   ROFLMAO

(note: "roflmao" is texting-code for, "rolling on floor, laughing my ass off")


Here's what Jame Turk has to say about this - for the record, in studying/researching the gold market exclusively for the better part of 12 years, I believe Turk knows as much as about the subject of Central Bank gold manipulation as anyone I've encountered:

    It’s quite clear that the German gold is being held hostage.  They are not getting what they want.  They are getting what the Federal Reserve is telling them they can have.  The fact that they are doing it over 7 years rather than 7 weeks, is just an indication that gold probably isn’t in the Federal Reserve, and the Federal Reserve doesn’t want to have to go out and buy it overnight to fulfill the German demand.  They are trying to stretch it out as long as possible in order to keep gold prices controlled.

Here's the link to his interview with Eric King:  LINK

The most likely scenario is that, while it's possible, though not a certainty,  that the bars may be sitting in the West Point deep storage Fed gold vault, it has been leased out and swapped out in legal transactions designed to manipulate the price of gold.  What this means is that private parties (think:  China's central bank, very wealthy foreigners, India, etc) have the legal title to any gold that has been leased or swapped and sold outright.

If you are skeptical as to the credibility of this reality, please take the time to read this paper authored by James Turk in January 2002 - it is quite revealing:  Fed Gold Swaps

         
Posted by Dave in Denver at 1:03 PM

http://truthingold.blogspot.com/2013/01/germany-pays-visit-to-united-states.html (http://truthingold.blogspot.com/2013/01/germany-pays-visit-to-united-states.html)    :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on January 17, 2013, 06:35:51 PM
Is this the shape of things to come??

In Illinois, the O'bomber's "home" state:

PRECIOUS METAL PURCHASING ACT

Synopsis As Introduced
Creates the Precious Metal Purchasing Act. Provides that a person who is in the business of purchasing precious metal shall obtain a proof of ownership, create a record of the sale, and verify the identity of the seller. Provides that a person who is in the business of purchasing precious metal shall not pay for the precious metal in cash and shall record the method of payment. Requires the purchaser to keep a record of the sale for one year or, if the purchase amount is over $500, for 5 years. Provides that a person who violates the Act is guilty of a petty offense and subject to a fine not exceeding $500. Provides that the Attorney General may inspect records, investigate an alleged violation, and take action to collect civil penalties.

Senate Committee Amendment No. 1
Authorizes inspection of records by local police departments. Requires reports to law enforcement on a daily basis. Exempts persons licensed under the Pawnbroker Regulation Act.

This bill passed Illinois Senate 2012 and is in committee in House.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=3341&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=SB&LegID=64562&SessionID=84 (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=3341&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=SB&LegID=64562&SessionID=84)

This state law (if passed) makes it a crime to pay cash for gold, making it hard for gold to become an alternate currency in a crisis.  It also could be used as a suspect list for confiscation.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 17, 2013, 07:00:28 PM

Quote
The long awaited statement read to the effect, they are going to get only 19% of it back over a 7 year period.

GO,

Ok, that statement didn't quite sink in when I asked that first question. Um, wouldn't this be tantamount to an act of war? And I guess, then too, suggesting we don't have the gold, who would ever buy a Treasury again, not knowing? But then, how does the Euro survive this, if their standard bearer has it's pants down around it's ankles? I never gave a shit about gold but I'm suddenly fascinated!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News : The Emperor Has No Clothes!
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 17, 2013, 07:11:40 PM
To Diners who may be following the Gold Story, there was a major development last night that has gold bugs throughout the world in absolute tizzy.

Those following the thread have seen my postings of the importance of Germany wanting their Gold back at the request of many of it's concerned citizens.

The long awaited statement read to the effect, they are going to get only 19% of it back over a 7 year period. You may interpret it as you wish, my view on the matter is posted below. This is a momentous development that bears close watching.

May I add that this is in no way a recommendation for anyone to run out and buy Gold this morning. The skunks that lord over us in secrecy and concerted manipulations may smash it for a while to keep the sheeple from running over a cliff. Whatever the case my view is the obvious.

                                         
2009 01 30 Emperor has no Gold!
2009 01 30 Emperor has no Gold!

What a LAFF!!! HAHAHA!!!, Its ALL gone, and the city of london will take 7 years to buy and dribble back 19%. See all those loyal subjects looking everywhere except at the emperor, well that will be the msm not looking at this news story.

GO, you realise this settles your long running debate with RE, Bankers and politicians in charge of gold is like a dingo in charge of sheep. Gold backed money is no safer than fiat, unless you have it in your hand you may as well not have it.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on January 17, 2013, 09:34:15 PM

Quote
The long awaited statement read to the effect, they are going to get only 19% of it back over a 7 year period.

GO,

Ok, that statement didn't quite sink in when I asked that first question. Um, wouldn't this be tantamount to an act of war? And I guess, then too, suggesting we don't have the gold, who would ever buy a Treasury again, not knowing? But then, how does the Euro survive this, if their standard bearer has it's pants down around it's ankles? I never gave a shit about gold but I'm suddenly fascinated!  :icon_mrgreen:

My two cents:

At this point, GO is well ahead of the crowd, even most gold traders have not reached this conclusion yet. 

Common sense is in short supply!   Who, when they lose trust in a depository, demands 19% of their assets back on an easy payment plan??

If/when enough folks figure this out, it could cause gold to soar and possibly the system to collapse. 

Not betting though.  After all, eleven years ago James Turk wrote about what was happening in the linked article, and there was no reaction to speak of.

http://www.gata.org/node/4259 (http://www.gata.org/node/4259)

Also, the statement from the Bundesbank reads like they planned it this way (19%) all along.  This can be read as: "Thank you sir. May I have another?!"  or  "Let's not stampede the herd, or we'll never get them to the slaughterhouse."

It's unlikely the media will be out there stampeding the herd.

Probably a deal has been made between the banksta mafias so as to keep the fiat extraction system "working".
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 17, 2013, 11:19:33 PM
Is this the shape of things to come??

In Illinois, the O'bomber's "home" state:

PRECIOUS METAL PURCHASING ACT

Synopsis As Introduced
Creates the Precious Metal Purchasing Act. Provides that a person who is in the business of purchasing precious metal shall obtain a proof of ownership, create a record of the sale, and verify the identity of the seller. Provides that a person who is in the business of purchasing precious metal shall not pay for the precious metal in cash and shall record the method of payment. Requires the purchaser to keep a record of the sale for one year or, if the purchase amount is over $500, for 5 years. Provides that a person who violates the Act is guilty of a petty offense and subject to a fine not exceeding $500. Provides that the Attorney General may inspect records, investigate an alleged violation, and take action to collect civil penalties.

Senate Committee Amendment No. 1
Authorizes inspection of records by local police departments. Requires reports to law enforcement on a daily basis. Exempts persons licensed under the Pawnbroker Regulation Act.

This bill passed Illinois Senate 2012 and is in committee in House.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=3341&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=SB&LegID=64562&SessionID=84 (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=3341&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=SB&LegID=64562&SessionID=84)

This state law (if passed) makes it a crime to pay cash for gold, making it hard for gold to become an alternate currency in a crisis.  It also could be used as a suspect list for confiscation.

More than likely my friend. Laws restricting our freedom, constitutional rights and privileges, ability to enter into private transactions outside of the view of the dog shit that view us as their property are becoming ever too commonplace. It is not just restricted to Gold either, and does nothing to alter the fact that Gold is real honest money and fiat is bankster debt created trickster money designed to enslave and control us. It is heartbreaking to me and I do not know how we can stop this constant trampling and control of our rights and freedoms by those who have assumed the right to lord over us.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 17, 2013, 11:49:28 PM
Quote
GO, you realise this settles your long running debate with RE, Bankers and politicians in charge of gold is like a dingo in charge of sheep. Gold backed money is no safer than fiat, unless you have it in your hand you may as well not have it.

With our current crop of pols and banksters he is correct, without a doubt.  There was a time however that a gold backed money was trustworthy, not because the pols and banksters were any more honest necessarily, but because there was ACCOUNTABILITY, and real audits, transparency, and decent honest citizens appointed as watchdogs, and a legal system that upheld laws and contracts. To argue that any of that exists today would qualify me as the world's greatest dunce.

May I correct one other misconception about my views on gold backed money Unc, which I feel you are confused about.

Gold backed money without convertibility is a friggin joke, which is the reason the Germans went home with their puds in their hands and no gold. When you can walk into a bank with 1700 dollars and demand an oz of gold immediately, no questions asked, or 30 bucks and demand an oz of silver then you have Gold backed money. As soon as the teller asks you to fill out a form and come back in 3 days the game is up and it is time to hoard as much of both as you can afford.

This idea of gold backed money without convertibility, without being able to see or audit it, without being able to demand your share of it, is sheer fucking bankster created idiocy, and I hope I have made my Gold backed and CONVERTIBLE case for our money clear.  Not on my stupidest day did I ever think we could have one without the other.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 12:20:04 AM

Quote
The long awaited statement read to the effect, they are going to get only 19% of it back over a 7 year period.

GO,

Ok, that statement didn't quite sink in when I asked that first question. Um, wouldn't this be tantamount to an act of war? And I guess, then too, suggesting we don't have the gold, who would ever buy a Treasury again, not knowing? But then, how does the Euro survive this, if their standard bearer has it's pants down around it's ankles? I never gave a shit about gold but I'm suddenly fascinated!  :icon_mrgreen:

You sure picked up on it quickly WHD, You have added three large worms, night crawlers shall we call them, to the can of opened worms I alluded too.  :laugh: ;D
I have an answer to only one, tantamount to an act of war, No, just another battle in an ongoing Currency war. Jim Rickards recently wrote a top selling book on this topic The Currency Wars, and it is one hell of good book.

The Euro is a complete mystery to me, The Currency without a country is what I have always called it. It makes no sense to me, never has, and am totally amazed it has lasted this long.

Your question about who would ever buy a Treasury again, especially where the yield is near zero is the most baffling of all, my brain goes tilt when I try and imagine someone that mentally deranged.

 A promise to pay, from an entity that has a history of inflating its currency, defaulting on it's legal gold contracts, and without any yield as a kicker is too much for me to handle.   :dontknow:

Cannot tell you how happy I am you have suddenly become very interested in Gold. It is my humble wish that my constant postings had some small part in your new found interest.  :D :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: A New Gold Standard Is Being Born
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 12:38:39 AM
It is dawning on them, slowly but surely.

A new Gold Standard is being born
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last updated: January 17th, 2013

The world is moving step by step towards a de facto Gold Standard, without any meetings of G20 leaders to announce the idea or bless the project.

Some readers will already have seen the GFMS Gold Survey for 2012 which reported that central banks around the world bought more bullion last year in terms of tonnage than at any time in almost half a century.

They added a net 536 tonnes in 2012 as they diversified fresh reserves away from the four fiat suspects: dollar, euro, sterling, and yen.

The Washington Accord, where Britain, Spain, Holland, South Africa, Switzerland, and others sold a chunk of their gold each year, already seems another era – the Gordon Brown era, you might call it.

That was the illusionary period when investors thought the euro would take its place as the twin pillar of a new G2 condominium alongside the dollar. That hope has faded. Central bank holdings of euro bonds have fallen back to 26pc, where they were almost a decade ago.

Neither the euro nor the dollar can inspire full confidence, although for different reasons. EMU is a dysfunctional construct, covering two incompatible economies, prone to lurching from crisis to crisis, without a unified treasury to back it up. The dollar stands on a pyramid of debt. We all know that this debt will be inflated away over time – for better or worse. The only real disagreement is over the speed.

The central bank buyers are of course the rising powers of Asia and the commodity bloc, now holders of two thirds of the world’s $11 trillion foreign reserves, and all its incremental reserves.

It is no secret that China is buying the dips, seeking to raise the gold share of its reserves well above 2pc. Russia has openly targeted a 10pc share. Variants of this are occurring from the Pacific region to the Gulf and Latin America. And now the Bundesbank has chosen to pull part of its gold from New York and Paris.

Personally, I doubt that Buba had any secret agenda, or knows something hidden from the rest of us. It responded to massive popular pressure and prodding from lawmakers in the Bundestag to bring home Germany’s gold. Yet that is not the end of the story. The fact that this popular pressure exists – and is well-organised – reflects a breakdown in trust between the major democracies and economic powers. It is a new political fact in the global system.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100022332/a-new-gold-standard-is-being-born/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100022332/a-new-gold-standard-is-being-born/)  :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:

                                                     
gold 2007494b
gold 2007494b
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News : The Emperor Has No Clothes!
Post by: RE on January 18, 2013, 12:53:17 AM

GO, you realise this settles your long running debate with RE, Bankers and politicians in charge of gold is like a dingo in charge of sheep. Gold backed money is no safer than fiat, unless you have it in your hand you may as well not have it.

Gold "backed" money is no more reliable than Fiat is.  Never has been.

In da olden days, Banksters would have Gold "delivered" though the Front Door of the bank so the depositors could see it coming in, then ship it out through the Back Door for another round the next day.  Banksters ALWAYS work Fractional Reserve, loaning out more "money" than they actually have redeemable in Gold.  The overall solvency of a Bank epends on the rest of the "assets" it holds, Farms, Bonds, Loans etc.  If the values on any of these things drop significantly, the Bank simply cannot pay up depositor money in Gold.

Money panics occur because of collapse in Asset Value prices, which all are dependent on resource availability and flow of Credit.  Krauts trying to repatriate Gold is simply an attempt to grab hold of one asset, but as Stoneleigh remarks often, you have Multiple Claims on this asset.  It is not strictly Kraut Gold, because Krauts OWE more money than the entirety of their Gold holdings, by far.  So the Gold in this sense belongs to their creditors, of whom there are many.  The Gold was rehypothecated, of course.

It wouldn't matter worth a damn if Helicopter Ben shipped the whole kit and kaboodle at once anyhow, it wouldn't make the Kraut Economy any more stable.  They still could not sell Mercedes and BMWs to impoverished PIIGS unless credit is extended to them.

95% of the Gold ever mined up is just going to sit in piles in various CB vaults, perhaps moved around a bit here but it won't do jackshit as far as making any given currency more stable. Asset values are collapsing due to resource depletion and lack of credit.   That is all she wrote.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 01:27:03 AM
Quote
95% of the Gold ever mined up is just going to sit in piles in various CB vaults, perhaps moved around a bit

The figure is actually only 19% from most sources, and that is if they are being truthful about what they have, which as you point out so often is a real stretch of faith. :laugh:

Your statement and ideas have been noted but deal more with the evil, trickery, and dishonesty of people rather than the point that the gold in their possession is the world's real money, and the paper claims,hypothecations, multiple claims on the same asset are all Bankster Fuckduckery a different topic than Gold in my opinion.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 18, 2013, 02:55:17 AM

Your statement and ideas have been noted but deal more with the evil, trickery, and dishonesty of people rather than the point that the gold in their possession is the world's real money, and the paper claims,hypothecations, multiple claims on the same asset are all Bankster Fuckduckery a different topic than Gold in my opinion.

Your OPINION has been Duly Noted and Filed.  :icon_mrgreen:

(http://gifsoup.com/view2/4126778/wastebasket-o.gif)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 18, 2013, 11:39:40 AM
Quote
Also, the statement from the Bundesbank reads like they planned it this way (19%) all along.  This can be read as: "Thank you sir. May I have another?!"  or  "Let's not stampede the herd, or we'll never get them to the slaughterhouse."

It's unlikely the media will be out there stampeding the herd.

Probably a deal has been made between the banksta mafias so as to keep the fiat extraction system "working".

GO,

Don't stampede the herd, we haven't raided the vault completely yet.

As to the media not out there stampeding the herd - not 'till it's time.

Quote
You sure picked up on it quickly WHD, You have added three large worms, night crawlers shall we call them, to the can of opened worms I alluded too.  :laugh: ;D
I have an answer to only one, tantamount to an act of war, No, just another battle in an ongoing Currency war. Jim Rickards recently wrote a top selling book on this topic The Currency Wars, and it is one hell of good book.

The Euro is a complete mystery to me, The Currency without a country is what I have always called it. It makes no sense to me, never has, and am totally amazed it has lasted this long.

Your question about who would ever buy a Treasury again, especially where the yield is near zero is the most baffling of all, my brain goes tilt when I try and imagine someone that mentally deranged.

 A promise to pay, from an entity that has a history of inflating its currency, defaulting on it's legal gold contracts, and without any yield as a kicker is too much for me to handle.   :dontknow:

Cannot tell you how happy I am you have suddenly become very interested in Gold. It is my humble wish that my constant postings had some small part in your new found interest.  :D :icon_sunny:

Don't debase worms like that.  :icon_mrgreen: Worms are, more important, directly to my general health and well being, than gold has ever been. Otherwise, I know gold is good as a conductor, of electricity and digital information, and greed. It's pretty too - though I think it's mostly ugly as an ornament.

So yeah, it is fascinating to me, what people will do to possess it, and the value they place in it. Truly astonishing.

I mean, I'd rather see every dollop of gold, diamonds too, silver, platinum, gems, all that stuff, invested in a vast information network, with some currency backed by it perhaps, but limits on any one with too much of a stake. Otherwise, a threat to the free flow of information, and to the health and well being of people and the earth generally, they become food for the worms.  :icon_sunny:

Meanwhile, wouldn't that be funny if the world just like that, slipped back into some de-facto gold backed currency system. They'll be scratching each others eyeballs out to set some new fiat system up, probably, locally and otherwise, gold backed or not. Just like they do now to maintain what they have.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Germany Reaffirms the Timeless Relevance of Gold
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 04:17:25 PM
Those investors who continue to miss out on one of the world's most powerful bull markets have officially just lost one of their most commonly cited rationales for doing so. With the watershed announcement this week that Germany's Bundesbank will repatriate nearly one-fifth of the nation's gold reserves, any last claims to the failed notion that gold somehow lacks relevance in the modern day financial system have just been obliterated.

Germany's central bank will take delivery of 674 metric tons of its gold currently held in Paris and New York over the next seven years, with the stated objective of holding 50% of the nation's 3,400-ton hoard at home (compared to the 31% of its gold reserves already reported held in German vaults). This will include all 374 tons currently held in Paris, and 300 tons from the bank's major deposit at the Federal Reserve's New York vault.

An extraordinary breakdown in trust
A Bundesbank spokesman told Forbes that the bank has no intention to sell the gold, and instead characterized the move as a "pre-emptive" measure "in case of a currency crisis." The bank's official news release explained the move as follows: "With this new storage plan, the Bundesbank is focusing on the two primary functions of the gold reserves: to build trust and confidence domestically, and the ability to exchange gold for foreign currencies at gold trading centers abroad within a short space of time."

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, international business editor for London's The Telegraph, reckons the event "marks an extraordinary breakdown in trust between leading central banks." Forbes echoed that it "raises questions as to their belief in both the strength of the global economy and the European Monetary Union, and their trust of fellow central banks." They may well be correct, but the decision is also clearly linked to a directive from Germany's Court of Auditors late last year that the central bank take measures to more effectively verify the status and purity of Germany's gold reserves. A few months ago, the bank first signaled its intention to repatriate a portion of gold reserves from New York, and then melt that gold down to test its purity. The operation announced this week, however, is on a far grander scale than that initially proposed.

A golden shield for the currency wars
The Bundesbank's timing here is truly uncanny, since it was precisely this week that worldwide rhetoric regarding the gathering pattern of "beggar-thy-neighbor" monetary policies reached an unsettling crescendo. Alexei Ulyukayev, first deputy chairman of Russia's central bank, starkly warned the world that a currency war (defined as global competitive currency devaluation) is perilously near. In the wake of accelerated asset purchases (QE4) by the U.S. Federal Reserve, combined with Japan's clear intention to engage in aggressive devaluation of the yen, several European policymakers could be heard this week championing loose monetary policy to combat strength in their respective national currencies.

The governor of South Korea's central bank, Kim Choong Soo, expressed concern over "adverse effects of monetary easing in the U.S., Europe and Japan," but nonetheless characterized his own bank's likely reaction to dramatic yen devaluation as an "active response to minimize any negative impacts on exports and investor confidence." The game of monetary hot potato that I referred to just last week in my discussion of gold and currency wars has begun to take shape, and I believe central bankers are apt to be pondering some increasingly bleak currency scenarios as they take these developments into account. In my view, the one inevitable outcome that becomes increasingly clear as these events unfold is the certainty of a major repricing event for gold as the sole global currency that cannot be printed at will.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/external/mfool/rss/SIG=13895c1md/ (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/external/mfool/rss/SIG=13895c1md/)*http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/01/18/germany-reaffirms-the-timeless-relevance-of-gold.aspx?ticker=GG&source=eptyholnk303100&logvisit=y&npu=y  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 18, 2013, 05:11:53 PM
Germany obviously wants its gold back for whenever the euro collapses. I think just like hitler beg/steal/borrowed literally every ounce of gold he could get his hands on, and then spent it all on weapons, while establishing a surveillance state so winner could then take all, stockpiling gold wont help against a stockpile of these...BREAKING! 2013 UN ~ NATO MARTIAL LAW USA! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFmroTaZvuw#ws)


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 05:36:45 PM
Quote
stockpiling gold wont help against a stockpile of these...

True Unc, it won't protect you against an atom bomb being dropped on your head, a fucking loony tune shooting you in a theatre, getting cancer or having a heart attack either.  I could list a few thousand others but feel confident you get my drift.

PS Don't buy any if you think a monstrous asteroid is heading here soon either.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 18, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
Quote
though I think it's mostly ugly as an ornament.

Perhaps you will find it more appealing in it's natural state of beauty. Holding it and feeling it's density adds to the pleasure.
                                         
a gold nugget
a gold nugget

                                         
genuinenuggets
genuinenuggets

                                         
goldnugget10
goldnugget10
                                         
                                         
depositphotos 1013503 Gold nuggets and scoop
depositphotos 1013503 Gold nuggets and scoop
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on January 19, 2013, 04:57:29 AM
Quote
stockpiling gold wont help against a stockpile of these...

True Unc, it won't protect you against an atom bomb being dropped on your head, a fucking loony tune shooting you in a theatre, getting cancer or having a heart attack either.  I could list a few thousand others but feel confident you get my drift.

PS Don't buy any if you think a monstrous asteroid is heading here soon either.

I dont mean on the individual level, I mean on a national level. I dont know whats going to happen, but it looks very much to me that buying up weapons on a credit binge until you go broke is a good way to prepare to go and rob everything you need. I am planning to buy some though.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Welcome Home German Gold
Post by: g on January 20, 2013, 05:43:00 AM
This one is a MUST for anyone interested in the Gold Story. Good old Max, no bull shit in this report. :emthup: :emthup:

                                                          http://youtu.be/8lnslMWhOTw (http://youtu.be/8lnslMWhOTw)  :icon_study: :icon_study:

                                       http://www.youtube.com/v/8lnslMWhOTw&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Mint runs out of 2013 Silver Coins, Suspends Sales
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 03:37:20 AM
NEW YORK, Jan 17 (Reuters) - U.S. Mint has suspended sales of its 2013 American Eagle silver bullion coins after running out of stock due to soaring investor demand for the newly minted coins in the first two weeks of the year.

Sales to authorized dealers will resume on or about the week of Jan. 28 after the U.S. Mint has replenished its inventory, it said in an email to authorized dealers on Thursday. The coins are produced at the Mint's West Point, New York, facility.

While it is typical for collectors to snap up newly stamped coins, interest this year has ballooned due to investors seeking refuge from U.S. economic uncertainty.

Silver Eagle sales to Jan. 15 exceeded 5 million ounces and were on track to surpass the all-time monthly high of 6.1 million ounces, set in January 2012.

Physical coin sales had risen in the final months of 2012 as investors protected their nest eggs from a feared U.S. recession. Many economists predicted a U.S. economic downturn would occur if Congress and the White House did not act to stop pending huge tax hikes and automatic spending cuts known as the "fiscal cliff."

It is not the first time the Mint has faced a run on its stock. It started allocating sales to authorized dealers in recent years after its supplies were depleted by unprecedented demand.

The Mint on Jan. 24 is due to start taking orders from the general public for silver proof coins, which fetch just under $63 each and are aimed at collectors. (Reporting By Josephine Mason; Editing by Gary Hill and Steve Orlofsk

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/18/usa-mint-coins-idUSL1E9CI02A20130118 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/18/usa-mint-coins-idUSL1E9CI02A20130118) 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 21, 2013, 04:12:03 AM
Bogus Shit.  TPTB are just trying to prop up the Silver Price, currently in the Toilet at around $32.  Plenty-o-Silver around for the Mint to buy and Mint into Coinage.  Artificial Scarcity to prop up the price amongst Gold & Silver Bugs.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 04:22:04 AM
Bogus Shit.  TPTB are just trying to prop up the Silver Price, currently in the Toilet at around $32.  Plenty-o-Silver around for the Mint to buy and Mint into Coinage.  Artificial Scarcity to prop up the price amongst Gold & Silver Bugs.

RE

I see, Like the Peak Oil Bogus Shit they have the dim preaching to hold the price of crud up, currently languishing around 90 from its high of 150 seven years ago??
Never knew you were working for big oil my brainwashed friend, did you. :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on January 21, 2013, 06:37:33 AM

I see, Like the Peak Oil Bogus Shit they have the dim preaching to hold the price of crud up, currently languishing around 90 from its high of 150 seven years ago??
Never knew you were working for big oil my brainwashed friend, did you. :laugh:
Not the same thing. Ya can't make your SUV Go to Walmrt with Silver Eagles.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on January 21, 2013, 06:53:32 AM
Interesting to look at these cartoons, and see surrogates for the stories that are taken the place of the Sandy Hook tragedy in the national consciousness.

Gee, it's almost as if somebody wanted to turn the page of the prevailing narrative, and away from the discrepancies in the official story. I am shocked, shocked.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 06:58:07 AM

I see, Like the Peak Oil Bogus Shit they have the dim preaching to hold the price of crud up, currently languishing around 90 from its high of 150 seven years ago??
Never knew you were working for big oil my brainwashed friend, did you. :laugh:
Not the same thing. Ya can't make your SUV Go to Walmrt with Silver Eagles.

RE
There you go, muddying the waters as usual with a different topic.
You cannot have a modern electronics or communications industry without silver.
As far as getting to Wall Mart, if you had just half the brains of MKing you would ride your bicycle there. :laugh: :P :o
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on January 21, 2013, 07:57:14 AM
Bogus Shit.  TPTB are just trying to prop up the Silver Price, currently in the Toilet at around $32.  Plenty-o-Silver around for the Mint to buy and Mint into Coinage.  Artificial Scarcity to prop up the price amongst Gold & Silver Bugs.

RE

There might be something to that. 

The mint is supposed to produce silver eagles to meet demand. Yet, at least once a year they run out.   I've been on the fence as to their incompetence vs market manipulation.  There is no shortage of silver eagles in the secondary market  with prices varing from ~$2.50 - $6+ above spot.  Some of the Mint's dealers might be playing a perceived shortage for higher markup.  Currently the higher prices are found at APMEX and their banker is JP Morgan.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on January 21, 2013, 09:06:20 AM
Quote
I see, Like the Peak Oil Bogus Shit they have the dim preaching to hold the price of crud up, currently languishing around 90 from its high of 150 seven years ago??
Never knew you were working for big oil my brainwashed friend, did you. :laugh:

Quote
As far as getting to Wall Mart, if you had just half the brains of MKing you would ride your bicycle there. :laugh: :P :o

GO,

It only ever hit 150 because people were pouring money into crude as a hedge against a collapsing global economy. It dropped down to thirty, as you will recall, in the midst of the chaos, if you are being honest. It hovers around 90 because any cheaper, and they don't make any money on those fringe plays, if we are being honest about Peak.

As for MKing riding his bike to Wal-Mart, he would probably drive his "free" electric vehicle on his "free" energy.

Suggesting RE has half the brains of MKing might get you accused of having your head up your bum about economic/political realities, even though I know you don't. Point is, you don't do your gold argument any favor by leaning on "socrates".
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 09:12:39 AM
Quote
The mint is supposed to produce silver eagles to meet demand. Yet, at least once a year they run out.   I've been on the fence as to their incompetence vs market manipulation.  There is no shortage of silver eagles in the secondary market  with prices varing from ~$2.50 - $6+ above spot.  Some of the Mint's dealers might be playing a perceived shortage for higher markup.  Currently the higher prices are found at APMEX and their banker is JP Morgan.

Hi Snowleopard, Just my guess but in the case of the Treasury I would lean heavily towards your incompetence idea rather than manipulation, mostly because of the gigantic premiums they charge over spot, so I believe them.

In the case of silver or gold bullion dealers, lets face it, they would; most not all, sell their mothers lead painted gold or silver, or RE's favorite tungsten. As in ALL MARKETS,   "CAVEAT EMPTOR"
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 09:26:42 AM
Quote
GO,

It only ever hit 150 because people were pouring money into crude as a hedge against a collapsing global economy.

Hi WHD That is a statement that I am convinced is totally erroneous. It is obvious to me that the exact opposite is true.

As far as Socrates goes, you are of course totally correct. It was merely an intended humorous barb at our Dungeon Master for referring to my posting as Bogus Shit. I can understand where you did not see the humor and thought me serious; in the future if you see one of these :laugh: :D ;D after one of my postings it is a sign that I am making an attempt at jest, sorry this one was not successful.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on January 21, 2013, 11:47:44 AM
Quote
The mint is supposed to produce silver eagles to meet demand. Yet, at least once a year they run out.   I've been on the fence as to their incompetence vs market manipulation.  There is no shortage of silver eagles in the secondary market  with prices varing from ~$2.50 - $6+ above spot.  Some of the Mint's dealers might be playing a perceived shortage for higher markup.  Currently the higher prices are found at APMEX and their banker is JP Morgan.

Hi Snowleopard, Just my guess but in the case of the Treasury I would lean heavily towards your incompetence idea rather than manipulation, mostly because of the gigantic premiums they charge over spot, so I believe them.

In the case of silver or gold bullion dealers, lets face it, they would; most not all, sell their mothers lead painted gold or silver, or RE's favorite tungsten. As in ALL MARKETS,   "CAVEAT EMPTOR"

Hi GO

Speaking of tungsten,  there are large quantities of silverplated fakes of most silver coins and bars now being mass produced in China.  The more carefull fakes require drilling, cutting, filing or ultrasound to detect, AFAIK.  This threat makes it risky for me to acquire silver bars or to accept them as barter.  Is there a low cost solution to this problem in sight?

With silver coins there is a ring the genuine article has that cannot be faked, assuming the coin is uncased and allowed to be dropped on a counter etc.   Unfortunately, i was often too close to gunfire and jetplanes in my youth and cannot always depend on my hearing. 

Perhaps i could use a modified musical instrument tuner or something?? 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 21, 2013, 02:19:41 PM
Quote
The mint is supposed to produce silver eagles to meet demand. Yet, at least once a year they run out.   I've been on the fence as to their incompetence vs market manipulation.  There is no shortage of silver eagles in the secondary market  with prices varing from ~$2.50 - $6+ above spot.  Some of the Mint's dealers might be playing a perceived shortage for higher markup.  Currently the higher prices are found at APMEX and their banker is JP Morgan.

Hi Snowleopard, Just my guess but in the case of the Treasury I would lean heavily towards your incompetence idea rather than manipulation, mostly because of the gigantic premiums they charge over spot, so I believe them.

In the case of silver or gold bullion dealers, lets face it, they would; most not all, sell their mothers lead painted gold or silver, or RE's favorite tungsten. As in ALL MARKETS,   "CAVEAT EMPTOR"

Hi GO

Speaking of tungsten,  there are large quantities of silverplated fakes of most silver coins and bars now being mass produced in China.  The more carefull fakes require drilling, cutting, filing or ultrasound to detect, AFAIK.  This threat makes it risky for me to acquire silver bars or to accept them as barter.  Is there a low cost solution to this problem in sight?

With silver coins there is a ring the genuine article has that cannot be faked, assuming the coin is uncased and allowed to be dropped on a counter etc.   Unfortunately, i was often too close to gunfire and jetplanes in my youth and cannot always depend on my hearing. 

Perhaps i could use a modified musical instrument tuner or something??

The only way I know of is to buy from a trusted dealer that has been around a while, is substantial, and has decades of satisfied customers. A few that come to mind I would suggest to you are Monex, Gold Money, Hans Tulving, Perth Mint, they have excellent reputations and have been used by me with satisfactory results. Another way to protect yourself is to buy only encapsulated products from established third part graders PCGS or NGC. I also go that route, pay a premium, and am confident of getting the premium back on resale if the world is still functioning reasonably well. Of course I cannot give you a guaranteed impeccable source, people change, businesses are bought out by new owners with less scruples etc. Another method I employ is to spread my purchases out and never by too much from any one source. Wish I could mention a source of complete guaranteed integrity, but the days of blind trust, and The words "My Word Is My Bond". have sadly become remnants of a by gone era. Pictured below is my choice of purchase with silver bullion and a brief description. Good Luck Snowleopard and don't get overly concerned, your chances of fraud are diminished greatly by this method, and never forget you are purchasing with Counterfeit Money.  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:

   012 1 Oz Silver American Eagle $1 - Roll of 20 Coins, NGC Gem Uncirculated
DIRECT FROM MINT SEALED BOX

The United States Mint Silver Eagle $1 coin, is the world's best selling and most highly collected bullion coin.
We submitted fresh US Mint sealed green "Monster" boxes of silver eagles directly to Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC). NGC opened each of the sealed boxes and encapsulated the individual rolls in their new tamper-evident roll holder. The NGC holder houses all 20 coins and is sonically sealed with an accompanying certification label and a serial number that is registered in NGC's database. Not only does this certification provide assurance of the Gem Uncirculated quality, it also provides an independent guarantee of authenticity.

                                     
d 34480
d 34480

                                     
d 34479
d 34479
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on January 22, 2013, 06:57:10 PM
Finally, a brief video from Jim Rickards explaining his view of the German Gold move and it's role in the Currency War.
He also points out how TPTB have removed it from the school curriculum and for the most part only the self taught understand it. 

  “Germany is saying that gold is money,” says Jim Rickards, author of Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis. Otherwise, says Rickards, they would just leave the gold where it currently is stored.

And Germany isn’t alone. There’s talk that the Netherlands and Azerbaijan will also repatriate gold reserves.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/central-banks-repatriate-gold-affect-investors-170006263.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/central-banks-repatriate-gold-affect-investors-170006263.html)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: 1794 Silver Dollar Sells For Record $10 million
Post by: g on January 27, 2013, 06:52:03 AM
$10 million at U.S. auction
Photo
Thu, Jan 24 2013

By Patricia Reaney

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A 1794 silver dollar, which many experts believe was the first such coin struck by the U.S. Mint, sold for a record $10 million at auction on Thursday.

The Flowing Hair Silver Dollar more than doubled the previous $4.1 million record for a coin set in 1999, auction house Stack's Bowers Galleries said.

Legend Numismatics, a rare-coin firm based in New Jersey, bought the coin, which was the highlight of the evening sale in New York that fetched a total of $17.2 million.

"We felt in our heart that this would be the very first coin to exceed the $10 million barrier in auction and were in fact prepared to bid much high in order to acquire this unique piece of history," the company said in a statement, adding it had no plans to sell the coin in the near future.

David Bowers, chairman emeritus of Stack's Bowers Galleries, said the coin has unique features that make it particularly valuable.

"It is the first American metal dollar struck and the finest known. You have these combinations coming together. No museum has an equal piece," he told Reuters.

The coin was part of the Cardinal Collection, amassed by the collector Martin Logies. Bowers described the collection as the "Old Masters" of coins struck during the earliest years of the U.S. Mint.

"I think it is extraordinary and I am very pleased that the first silver dollar is the first to top the $10 million threshold," said Logies, who purchased the coin three years ago.

The $10 million price includes the buyer's commission.

Like the buoyant art market, which is expecting another good year in 2013, Bowers said coins are a good investment, have a worldwide market and have risen steadily in value.

"We're continually surprised by surprises," he said, adding there are several million coin collectors around the globe. "They want to collect coins for appreciation, art, rarity and beauty."

The record-setting coin shows a profile of Miss Liberty facing right surrounded by stars representing each state in the union. The design was only used in 1794 and briefly the following year.

Another top seller in the sale of 94 lots was the 1792 Half Disme, which dates back to David Rittenhouse, the first director of the U.S. Mint. It fetched $975,000, excluding the 17.5 percent buyer's commission.

(Reporting by Patricia Reaney; Editing by Jill Serjeant and Eric Beech)
                                                     
                                                       
s1 reutersmedia net
s1 reutersmedia net

www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/25/us-coins-auction-record-idUSBRE90O06120130125 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/25/us-coins-auction-record-idUSBRE90O06120130125)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold and Silver are for Crazy People
Post by: g on January 28, 2013, 04:31:45 AM
Five Star Article ***** in this reader's opinion.  :emthup:

It wasn’t that long ago at a conference of people better off and smarter than me, that the subject turned to gold and monetary policy. I’ve since forgotten most of the conversation, but I remember very well the sentiment that seemed to prevail among those with whom I outed myself as a gold-bug lunatic (and I’m paraphrasing here):

“Gold is for crazed libertarians waiting for the apocalypse” — a pretty standard, ho-hum response that any gold bug is used to hearing (gold was somewhere below 500 dollars at the time I might add.)

But the line that really stuck with me, and that with hindsight is so incredibly meaningful for all sorts of reasons was: “I’m pretty sure that central banks are planning to sell all their gold.” All their gold? Did I miss something?

I was familiar with government agreements to sell some gold, but every last shiny gold bar? It was almost as if gold was that used recliner you couldn’t wait to dump on the curb for the garbage collector. That sentiment speaks to the long hard slog gold and silver bugs still have ahead of us to actually convince people who aren’t as insane as we of the need to hedge with real precious metal, since it's just a cold hard fact that less than 1% of peoples’ wealth is in real physical metal (note my use of the words real and physical.) The attitude encapsulated in the sentence “central banks will sell all their gold” is still alive and well, as far as I’m concerned, here in the U.S. All the more so, I might add, now that the stock market has clocked one of its longest periods of outperformance relative to gold and silver since the precious metals bull began (sorry to remind the die hards out there, but since October 2011 the S&P is up roughly 25%, while gold and silver are flat to down—in the case of silver negative to the tune of 25%.)

So yes, we, the gold and silver crazies are in the minority, still, somehow after everything the world has been through. This speaks to the power of persuasion, to the power of propaganda, in short, to the power of the very system that stood behind the notion that central banks would in no short time eliminate that barbarous relic, gold, completely, once and for all. And it makes me wonder, did western central banks in fact sell all of their gold? Is this why it is going to take seven years for the Germans to get some of theirs? Is this why a petition in Switzerland to find out “wo ist das Gold” is gaining traction?

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/jdU5F6JgkSM/gold-silver-crazy-people (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/jdU5F6JgkSM/gold-silver-crazy-people)   :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: James Turk: Central Banks are Losing the War to Suppress Gold & Silver Prices
Post by: monsta666 on February 01, 2013, 09:04:18 AM
Anyone who is interested in gold and silver may want to watch this video. James Tuck is predicting a rise in prices for gold and especially silver which he sees as particularly undervalued. Could be a reasonable bet in the medium-term seeing how inflated stock and bond prices are. As those asset classes are overvalued they are due a correction and once that comes and faith is lost in those asset including fiat currency then people will folk to gold and silver. Or so the argument goes...

http://www.youtube.com/v/RSrFd5bHOcY&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Snowleopard on February 01, 2013, 09:29:12 PM
I listened to Mr Turk in the recording above.  I mostly agree with him.  The bankers will have to "let the lid off" again soon. 

No doubt they will try the same tactic, let the prices rise, (helping the process by going long) then slam them down again (by selling their longs and buying massive naked shorts) to a slightly higher low. 

IMHO in silver at least, there is at least a 40% chance this tactic will fail due to lack of physical supply, massive physical demand, and a refusal of paper settlement.  (ie. "No Sir, you can keep your $xxx per ounce, I want the actual silver you owe me, even if you say it is only worth $xx per ounce!")

OTOH that still means there is a ~60% chance they kick the can again.  Those are my guesses as to the current odds, and even if close today they are in constant flux.  The bankers usually get to pick their time and have supercomputers and proprietary info to help them with current odds.

Look for some exitement in these markets in the months ahead.  If it doesn't get away from them this year, it will soon.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 02, 2013, 05:22:07 AM

Quote
IMHO in silver at least, there is at least a 40% chance this tactic will fail due to lack of physical supply, massive physical demand, and a refusal of paper settlement.  (ie. "No Sir, you can keep your $xxx per ounce, I want the actual silver you owe me, even if you say it is only worth $xx per ounce!")

True enough SL, the silver is going to be problem for them. The most favorable thing silver has going for it is the fact that the manipulators sold of all their holdings a while back, and cannot use it as a club weapon to threaten the poor folks who are trying to protect themselves as they often do with Gold.

Don't underestimate their current power in the paper silver market however. JP Manipulator has the biggest short position there ever amassed, and is brazen and destructive in their efforts to protect it. They have the balls and audacity to call it a hedge, I pray the lord I see the day those friggin pigs have to cover that short, with that ass hole JD blaming it all on some Rogue Trader under the radar. Yes, people believe that bull shit.    :(
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 02, 2013, 12:14:32 PM
An interesting story that I thought gold bugs would want to know. With prices of gold being so dear one must be on high alert for gold fraud. Gold fraud can occur on not just the bars itself but whether the banking outlet actually physically carries the bars. I feel these points cannot be dismissed and even if people hold gold as a sacred commodity they would do well to remember that the bankers treachery knows no bounds so even a sacrosanct commodity such as gold can be used to perpetuate the fraud that occurs on a daily basis in the banking sector.

-- ---------------------------------------------------------------

The Disappearing Gold!!! (http://www.internationalman.com/global-perspectives/the-disappearing-gold#.UQbv46D1eNM.twitter)

By Jeff Thomas (http://www.internationalman.com/author/57-jeffthomas)
January 28, 2013

During the Cold War, Germany moved much of its gold to New York in case the USSR invaded Germany. It was assumed at that time that the US would be a safer storage location, and of course, they could always ask to have it returned if they wished.

(http://www.internationalman.com/images/disappearinggold.jpg)
But German citizens have become increasingly worried about the security of the 1,536 tonnes of German gold reputedly held at the Federal Reserve in New York. This has resulted in the Bundesbank pursuing repatriation of the gold, beginning with a request to view it in the basement of the Federal Reserve Building, where it is claimed to reside.

Of course, the German government had received periodic assurances from the Fed that the gold is there; however, the issue began to get a bit sticky recently, when the Fed refused a request for inspection.

The world then raised a collective eyebrow, and, whilst not panicking over this development just yet, closer attention has come to bear, not only on the Fed, but on any institution that is entrusted with the storage of gold for other parties.

Concern spread to Austria, where a question arose in Parliament as to where Austria’s gold is stored. The answer provided was that 80% of it (224.4 tonnes) is in the UK. (It was claimed that the reason for this is that, if a crisis of some kind were to occur, it could be more easily traded from London than from Vienna.)

Seems reasonable enough, except that the return of the gold to Austria, if it were requested, may be a bit difficult, as the gold seems to have been leased out by the UK.

To many, a second eyebrow might go up at this point. Lease out the wealth of another nation? Isn’t this a bit… irresponsible?

The New Gold Shuffle

Not to worry, it's done all the time. In fact, the practice has been endorsed by none other than Alan Greenspan, former Chairman of the Fed. The gold is leased to a bullion bank, which typically pays one percent interest to the Fed, with a promise to return it on a specified date. The bullion bank then sells the gold on the open market and uses the proceeds to buy Treasury bonds, which will net a three to four percent return.

The nicest thing about such an arrangement is that the lessor continues to claim it on his balance sheet as a line item: "gold and gold receivables." After all, an asset that we have leased out is still an asset, even if it has now been sold by the lessee.

In effect, this means that, if you bought a gold bar today, it is possible that it is a bar that was shipped from the Bundesbank to the Federal Reserve decades ago and is presently listed by the Fed on its balance sheet as "gold and gold receivables."

Both you and the Fed are claiming to possess the same gold bar. The fly in the ointment, of course, is that only one bar can be the actual bar. The other is a receivable and therefore is an asset on paper only. This, of course, means that there is less gold in the world than has been claimed. How much less? That’s anyone’s guess.

The New Risks

But even if it became generally known that the Fed (and others) are holding paper, rather than physical gold, couldn’t we carry on as before? What could go wrong? Here are some immediate possibilities:
That’s quite a bit of risk.

In the present market, there are any number of possible triggers that could cause the people of Germany, Austria, or a host of other nations to demand that their gold be returned home. Indeed, pressure is on the increase. The governments who have shipped out their gold for "safekeeping" would have a lot of explaining to do to their constituents, if the storage banks are not forthcoming.

So, is it time for the odiferous effluvium to hit the fan? Not quite yet. Before that occurs, there will still be some dancing around by the Fed and others.

The Fed has already stated, in so many words, "We're sorry, but we can't let you have all your gold at one time, but we'd be prepared to send it to you over a period of years."

For many observers, the present situation should be well beyond the point of the raised eyebrow. It should be glaringly apparent that the amount of gold presently claimed to be in storage in the world's banks is, to a greater or lesser extent, overstated.

Continuing the Charade

The Bundesbank should, of course, now say, "I'm afraid that’s not good enough. It's our gold. We've advised you how much of it we want back now, and we must insist that you produce it immediately."

If they were to take this perfectly logical step and the Fed refused, there could be a run on the banks, and, very possibly, within as short a period as twenty-four hours, a worldwide bank holiday might be declared with regard to gold.

However, this is not what will transpire. Neither logic nor sound banking practices are the object here. The object is to maintain the charade that exists within the banking community. The Bundesbank is just as fearful of a run as the Fed and will be only too willing to accept the Fed's terms.

What must be borne in mind is the root cause of the request. It was not the Bundesbank itself that originally wanted the transfer to take place; it was the German people who, quite rightly, have become distrustful of the fact that their gold has been in New York for so long and want to see it repatriated. It is not the banks who wish to correct the situation. Not one bank wishes to expose the inappropriate practices of any other bank. Their loyalty is to each other and not to their depositors.

So, is that it? Have we heard the last of this issue? I think not. The cat is out of the bag at this point, and the depositors' distrust and uncertainty will not be quelled by the counter-offer. Tension will continue to mount amongst depositors, and, at some point, the situation will reach an impasse.

All those who presently have gold in a banking institution would be prudent to keep an eye on the present situation. We might consider taking delivery of any gold we have in a bank, wherever it may be. Regardless of what form it is in, from ETFs to allocated gold, we would do well to assess the degree to which we feel our gold is at risk. In doing so, we may determine that a gold account is more at risk in, say, a New York or London bank than a Swiss bank. (Not all banks will be equal in terms of risk.)

If we do resolve to divest ourselves of bank-related precious metal holdings, it would be prudent to take action soon. (Clearly, those who attempt to remove their wealth the day after a run has occurred tend to do less well than those who attempt to remove their wealth the day before the run.)

We might also consider whether a possible run may become systemic, causing a bank holiday on all the bank's activities, thus freezing any currency that we may have on deposit. We may conclude that it is prudent to only retain in our bank enough money to allow cheques to clear – an amount sufficient to cover a few months' expenses.

In the near future, we may well find that a significant amount of gold that is claimed to exist in the world will "disappear." Whilst we cannot control this eventuality, we may be able to save the gold that is being held in our names from disappearing.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on February 02, 2013, 01:12:03 PM
So Germans are not ripping down their Central Bank why? Same reason we aren't, I guess, here in America.

Can you feel the tension. The global economy seizing up, for lack of faith, for a dearth of trust. It's like one rash decision by any number of lunatics could tip the balance, like the bell curve of peak is more like culture is a fulcrum on top of a pyramid, most of humanity is rushing to one side of.   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 02, 2013, 02:53:30 PM
So Germans are not ripping down their Central Bank why? Same reason we aren't, I guess, here in America.

Can you feel the tension. The global economy seizing up, for lack of faith, for a dearth of trust. It's like one rash decision by any number of lunatics could tip the balance, like the bell curve of peak is more like culture is a fulcrum on top of a pyramid, most of humanity is rushing to one side of.   

Well the Germans did actually tear up their own central bank... Problem is it was replaced by even worse one that is the European Central Bank. Not only is the bank just as bad as the Fed but it is outside their borders and they have no control over the policies it runs (at least the US government has some influence on the Fed). News to me that Britain held Austrian gold so it would seem not only did Gordon Brown sell British gold he also sold Austrian gold.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 02, 2013, 03:18:39 PM
 
Quote
Problem is it was replaced by even worse one that is the European Central Bank. Not only is the bank just as bad as the Fed but it is outside their borders and they have no control over the policies it runs (at least the US government has some influence on the Fed).

Hi Monsta, Would like to voice my objection to that comment.

The ECB is the German Central Bank. The Fed is totally controlled buy the government and both governments are controlled in full by the respective banksters of both countries. What their charters say and the buildings they are located in are stage props only. I am afraid we are down the road of complete central authority more than most realize.   :'(
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 02, 2013, 03:40:54 PM
Quote
Problem is it was replaced by even worse one that is the European Central Bank. Not only is the bank just as bad as the Fed but it is outside their borders and they have no control over the policies it runs (at least the US government has some influence on the Fed).

Hi Monsta, Would like to voice my objection to that comment.

The ECB is the German Central Bank. The Fed is totally controlled buy the government and both governments are controlled in full by the respective banksters of both countries. What their charters say and the buildings they are located in are stage props only. I am afraid we are down the road of complete central authority more than most realize.   :'(
Well to me while the Deutsche Bundesbank (German Central Bank) does exist in some capacity I do not consider it a real central bank as it does not create new currency, it merely distributes existing currency made from the ECB. Okay I was wrong about the point the ECB is outside German borders, I for some reason thought at the time it was situated in Brussels but it is actually Frankfurt. However the Germans still do not have direct control over the ECB as it joint owned by the 27 states of the EU however due to the Deutsche Bundesbank former size it is the most influential member but still it vies for control with other EU member states. The fact that Draghi runs it should offer some clue that the Germans do not directly control it. Saying all that I will say that is just the official line given in terms of ownership.

In reality it is quite likely that the most influential people are the owners of the largest commercial banks who yield enough power to dictate policy over these all major central banks (be it the Feds, ECB, Bank of England etc.) but that is another story altogether. These points however do not change the fact that these banks are likely committing fraud with gold. This is the crime we should be looking at for now. Once a crime is established then you need to investigate who the real criminal is.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on February 02, 2013, 04:11:37 PM
The fact that Draghi runs it should offer some clue that the Germans do not directly control it.

The fact Draghi runs it tells who controls it.

Goldman.

(http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/goldman-sachs-vampire-squid.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 02, 2013, 06:23:13 PM
The fact that Draghi runs it should offer some clue that the Germans do not directly control it.

The fact Draghi runs it tells who controls it.

Goldman.

(http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/goldman-sachs-vampire-squid.jpg)

RE

You posting of Reverend Blankfein's picture is defaming and disrespectful to this great and humble servant of the Lord.

May I post a real picture of His Eminence, as he really is, and apologize to the members of his religion, who thankfully are at Davos worshiping Mammon, for your disgraceful conduct. Please RE, remember your actions reflect upon all of us.

                                   
Lloyd Blankfein
Lloyd Blankfein
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Farage - West Headed Into Orwellian Nightmare & Bankrupt
Post by: g on February 06, 2013, 07:32:02 AM

Today Nigel Farage told King World News he is deeply concerned about Orwellian developments, and military interventions.  He also believes the world will witness a massive spike in the gold price as the West marches towards bankruptcy, and financial crisis once again engulfs the world.  But first, Farage, who is Britain’s very popular MEP, gave this entertaining response when asked what has him worried right now, “Joe Biden (laughter ensues).  What a ghastly man.  What have you done in America to deserve such an appalling bloke?  We’ve had a special relationship between Britain and America going back over very many years.”


“We haven’t always agreed on everything, but now we seem to have an American administration which is the most anti-British that has been in the White House since 1812, when the Brits went and burned it down.  I just cannot believe that we’re getting this bullying from Obama and Biden.


I have tried, over the last decade or more, to fight off attempts to believe that there’s some sort of global conspiracy going on....

“But I tell you what, with every day that goes by it begins to look more real.  It’s almost as if there is this massive attempt to make us all give up our freedom.  To make us all surrender our liberty.  To make us all sign up to a system where they (central planners) can monitor our emails.  Where they can, effectively, monitor and censor what we say, what we’re allowed to read, and what we’re allowed to hear.



“Gold is a long-term investment, it’s not a short-term investment.  Short-term, the status quo having their way.  Gold has been somewhat suppressed, and it will probably stay suppressed for a moment in time.


But I have absolutely no doubt that there is going to be a very big spike in gold at some point in the not-too-distant-future.  Any sensible investor’s portfolio has to have money in gold.  The banking system has not been fixed.  The borrowing of America, of Europe, of much of the West, is still hopelessly, desperately out of control.


None of the fundamentals have been fixed.  There are bad times ahead, and the gold price at some point will reflect it.  Maybe not right now, but at some point, before too long, it will reflect it.”

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/2/5_Farage_-_West_Headed_Into_Orwellian_Nightmare_%26_Bankruptcy.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/2/5_Farage_-_West_Headed_Into_Orwellian_Nightmare_%26_Bankruptcy.html)       :icon_study: :icon_study:

shapeimage 22
shapeimage 22

 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Venezuela Launches First Nuke In Currency Wars
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 05:00:15 AM
While the rest of the developed world is scrambling here and there, politely prodding its central bankers to destroy their relative currencies, all the while naming said devaluation assorted names, "quantitative easing" being the most popular, here comes Venezuela and shows the banana republics of the developed world what lobbing a nuclear bomb into a currency war knife fight looks like:

    VENEZUELA DEVALUES FROM 4.30 TO 6.30 BOLIVARS
    VENEZUELA NEW CURRENCY BODY TO MANAGE DOLLAR INFLOWS
    CARACAS CONSUMER PRICES ROSE 3.3% IN JAN.

And that, ladies and gents of Caracas, is how you just lost 46% of your purchasing power, unless of course your fiat was in gold and silver, which just jumped by about 46%. And, in case there is confusion, this is in process, and coming soon to every "developed world" banana republic near you.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-08/venezuela-devalues-its-currency-32 (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-08/venezuela-devalues-its-currency-32)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on February 09, 2013, 05:32:39 AM
I saw this Tyler Durden screed.

He ignores the fact that anybody holding Veneual pesos would have done bette with Dollars than Gold.

Also ignores the fact most Veneauelans have no savings at all.  If you have no savings, you lose nothing in a curency devaluation.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 06:13:17 AM
I saw this Tyler Durden screed.

He ignores the fact that anybody holding Veneual pesos would have done bette with Dollars than Gold.

Also ignores the fact most Veneauelans have no savings at all.  If you have no savings, you lose nothing in a curency devaluation.

RE
 

You miss the point of the article, the author points out that it is the way of all fiat sooner or later. The dollar has been holding it's value against banana republic currencies, but it's purchasing power relative to a basket of goods, and of course Gold and Silver has been rather dismal to say the least.

People without savings lose nothing, true, except for the fact that every imported good they have to buy will cost double what it did before the devaluation. That is a loss that must be measured into the equation.

I note as an addenda to the article that Mr Chavez saw to it his countries Gold Reserves were brought safely home before the move to devalue, leading me to believe that this is but the first of many devaluations.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 09, 2013, 07:50:52 AM
The problem with any argument that suggests moving to a gold standard is it is basically an argument for massive deflation. Our stocks of gold are much lower than our stocks of money or even currency. Seeing as most economies are saturated with debt and since deflation makes debt repayments harder then a move to a gold standard is basically a move towards bankruptcy. Now perhaps this COULD be seen as a noble goal seeing how corrupt our banking system has become and that it needs a restart but one needs to consider the implications a full meltdown would have.

Seeing as a large percentage of international trade requires the use of banks and more important credit the failure of such banks would mean almost an end to global trading. Even if the banking system were still intact there is not enough gold or even silver in the world to trade all existing goods and services. Further even if there was enough gold and silver (through massive deflation of the monetary system) then there would not be enough gold and silver to finance further economic growth. If we look it seems the world gold reserves are on a similar footing to oil as depicted on this graph below:

(http://images.angelpub.com/2009/47/3359/200911_peak_goldpng.png)

From this graph it would appear peak goal was reached in 2001 when 2,649 tons of gold was mined however this total was recently surpassed in 2010 when gold mined reached 2,689 tons. There was a small decline in 2011 (but still above the 2001 peak) and in 2012 gold mined reached 2,700 tons. However we must note that increased gold mining has come about due to the great incentive of higher prices as the price of gold has risen rapidly between 2001 and 2012. Furthermore due to declining ore quality more energy is required to obtain each further ton of gold and since we approaching peak oil then the cost of mining will rise as the EROI for future oil declines (a major input to gold mining is diesel fuel). It is a combination of these factors that means it is likely that global peak gold is imminent. The same sort of issues afflict silver with declining EROI making silver extraction more expensive. Please see link below for more information in this area.

Peak Silver Revisited: Impacts Of A Global Depression, Declining Ore Grades & A Falling EROI (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/peak-silver-revisited-impacts-global-depression-declining-ore-grades-falling-eroi)

So why the focus on gold/silver production you may ask? The reason I highlight these production figures is if you wish to develop a financial system then you need the units of currency to rise or decline in tandem with the amount of goods and services produced in the general economy. If the money supply does not respond in tandem to growth in the overall economy then you will get inflation (as this is an oversupply of currency units) or deflation (as there is a under supply in money stocks). Also gold and silver suffer from more hoarding issues than normal fiat currency so they are more prone to deflation issues. The other issue is that the possession of precious metals is even more concentrated than fiat currency so if a switch were made then existing issues of inequalities will become even further exacerbated. Gold offers no panacea to our problems and due to its nature of it being rare and inert it is generally ill suited for an economy that rapidly grows or decline due to issues of deflation/inflation described above. It should be remembered that a global gold currency lasted just over 40 years (1870-1914) and this occurred in era of massive gold production and relatively few wars. Once any of those two conditions was broken the gold standard broke down.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 08:39:06 AM
Quote
The problem with any argument that suggests moving to a gold standard is it is basically an argument for massive deflation.

That statement is totally erroneous, and is one of the many in the bankster's bag of tricks to deceive the dim and keep them in debt via fiat bondage.

All arguments that suggest a move to the Gold Standard by the enlightened are a call for a return to STABILITY, SANITY, and sound honest money. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 09, 2013, 09:23:30 AM
That statement is totally erroneous, and is one of the many in the bankster's bag of tricks to deceive the dim and keep them in debt via fiat bondage.

All arguments that suggest a move to the Gold Standard by the enlightened are a call for a return to STABILITY, SANITY, and sound honest money.

Gold cannot make bankers honest. As long as bankers are dishonest then the money they use - be it fiat or gold - will not be honest, sane or stable. Now if we could issue, and distribute gold without a banking system it could in theory become more honest but such a mechanism is unlikely to develop. The moment people need to hold large amounts of gold to make transactions is the moment there will be demand to have that gold stored in some vault. Once there are vaults banks will soon follow and once there are banks it is only a matter of time before they will defraud the money supply either through the fractional reserve system (using gold as the reserve) or they use fake bars or debase the gold coins. Their "financial innovations" in defrauding any monetary system is breathtaking. Bottom line is bankers are more dishonest than gold is honest. You must remember this point well; bankers can make any monetary system lose creditability by making it unstable and insane through fraudulent measures.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 09:50:24 AM
That statement is totally erroneous, and is one of the many in the bankster's bag of tricks to deceive the dim and keep them in debt via fiat bondage.

All arguments that suggest a move to the Gold Standard by the enlightened are a call for a return to STABILITY, SANITY, and sound honest money.

Gold cannot make bankers honest. As long as bankers are dishonest then the money they use - be it fiat or gold - will not be honest, sane or stable. Now if we could issue, and distribute gold without a banking system it could in theory become more honest but such a mechanism is unlikely to develop. The moment people need to hold large amounts of gold to make transactions is the moment there will be demand to have that gold stored in some vault. Once there are vaults banks will soon follow and once there are banks it is only a matter of time before they will defraud the money supply either through the fractional reserve system (using gold as the reserve) or they use fake bars or debase the gold coins. Their "financial innovations" in defrauding any monetary system is breathtaking. Bottom line is bankers are more dishonest than gold is honest. You must remember this point well; bankers can make any monetary system lose creditability by making it unstable and insane through fraudulent measures.

The obvious fact, and I point to your erroneous writings as proof, reveal the fact that you cannot even imagine a monetary system that the banksters don't control.

Instead of spouting bankster lies and BS go back and read the Constitution of the US  and you will discover who has the legal  authority to coin money and what it has to consist of.

You must remember this point well, you are an unwitting pawn of the bankster filth that corrupted us, your intentions are honorable, however you spout their lies and propaganda for corrupting our money and social structure. They are masters of deception and brainwashing, much like Lucifer their master, and you are but another tool in their arsenal of weapons to bad mouth a return to honest money. You have been conned my friend.

Study Gold and Silver, find out why our ancestors handed them to us as real money after thousands of years of testing, and try your utmost to cleanse your mind of the bankster propaganda you been bombarded with since your birth. I realize you are a young man who never witnessed the world of honest sound money first hand, so I am most sympathetic to your predicament.   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 09, 2013, 06:02:47 PM
The obvious fact, and I point to your erroneous writings as proof, reveal the fact that you cannot even imagine a monetary system that the banksters don't control.

Let us then consider what a banker is. A banker is a person who works for a bank. A bank is a financial institution that acts as a intermediary that accepts deposits and channels those deposits into loans either directly or indirectly. If there is enough gold floating around then there will be a demand to deposit this gold some place as carrying all the gold you own (either through person or at some personal fixed location) 24/7 is a costly endeavour not to mention quite dangerous also. Once you have gold deposited in some location the bullion holders will have a source of deposits and it is pretty likely they will lend this gold to other parties (at a profit). The moment they start loaning this out is the moment a bank is formed and once a bank is formed you will naturally have people working for this bank.

Are you saying that this process can be stopped? Or that the next bunch of people who gain access to vaults holding gold will resist the temptation of lending this surplus amount of gold reserves to other people for a profit? Human nature dictates that with this kind of power people will succumb to temptation and lend this money for a quick buck. It is human nature for this to happen. Just pause for a moment and look at this:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/02/article-2095535-118F9398000005DC-480_966x606.jpg)

Can you imagine a scenario that if a person could see all that gold for real they could not resist the temptation to own more gold by creating false certificates to lend some of it out? It seems incredible there would be no one, in all of history, who would succumb to lending this gold out in the quest for more gold. The moment a person lends out this money a bank will be born and you can bet your golden eagle the first banker who does it will make a fortune spurring others to do the same.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 06:05:18 PM
Quote
Well worth a look if you have time, How easily our minds are manipulated. They got rid of him when he tried to introduce a gold standard african currency the Dinar, his central bank loaned money to libyans at 0% interest, now replaced with a rothschild bank.
Hi Unc, nice to see you are coming out of the ether.  ;D :laugh:

There was a gent named Saddam Hussein, remember him?  He demanded payment in Euros for his oil one sad day, for him that is. Died a short time later.  :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 06:41:52 PM
Quote
Human nature dictates that with this kind of power people will succumb to temptation and lend this money for a quick buck. It is human nature for this to happen.

How true Monsta, people sure can be evil and become awfully greedy.

Unfortunatley however, I am discussing gold with you, an entirely different topic; like RE you are confused about the subject and muddy the waters. Your point that men can be very untrusworthy is a valid one having nothing to do with gold.

Let me ask you a few questions to see if I can get my point across without mentioning the four letter word you have been tricked into despising.

If I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, should I stop believing that because some members of the Christian Religions have been  exposed doing things against the teachings of Christ??

If I believe that the Constitution of the US is a worthy document which was the foundation of a great and good nation, should I stop believing in it's worth and value because many who swore to defend it, and it's principals and laws, have shown themselves to be corrupted turds instead of moral statesmen?

Are you getting my drift Monsta, I can go on and on but the point will be the same.?

                                                     
1800 5 n45
1800 5 n45

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on February 09, 2013, 07:52:22 PM
Quote
Human nature dictates that with this kind of power people will succumb to temptation and lend this money for a quick buck. It is human nature for this to happen.

How true Monsta, people sure can be evil and become awfully greedy.

Unfortunatley however, I am discussing gold with you, an entirely different topic; like RE you are confused about the subject and muddy the waters. Your point that men can be very untrusworthy is a valid one having nothing to do with gold.

Let me ask you a few questions to see if I can get my point across without mentioning the four letter word you have been tricked into despising.

If I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, should I stop believing that because some members of the Christian Religions have been  exposed doing things against the teachings of Christ??

If I believe that the Constitution of the US is a worthy document which was the foundation of a great and good nation, should I stop believing in it's worth and value because many who swore to defend it, and it's principals and laws, have shown themselves to be corrupted turds instead of moral statesmen?

Are you getting my drift Monsta, I can go on and on but the point will be the same.?

                                                     
1800 5 n45
1800 5 n45

Surely all that gold could be used for some more moral purpose than money? We can use turds for money, ya know, if we want to. Which might be more appropriate at this point. Let a man's worth be measured by how much turd he collects. LOL
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
Quote
Surely all that gold could be used for some more moral purpose than money?

Much of it has been used for other purposes on account of it's beauty, malleability, indestructible qualities of being inert and impervious to the elements, many other physical properties which caused the precious metal  to evolve as real money. The Egyptians thought it was the flesh of God and buried their Kings, who were their deities in coffins of it.

Fine art sculptures, jewelry, religious artifacts, chalices, all sorts of uses for the precious metal.

The following are a few images of Inca Treasures.   Beautiful art works in my opinion.

                                                     
160

                                                     
163

                                                     
mask4
mask4

                                                      Clicking on these images and the clicking the enlarge box will enhance them.

                                               
                                                 
                                                             
                                                       
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on February 09, 2013, 09:11:43 PM
Quote
    Surely all that gold could be used for some more moral purpose than money?

GO,

I was thinking about communications hardware.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
Quote
    Surely all that gold could be used for some more moral purpose than money?

GO,

I was thinking about communications hardware.

Silver is the big metal in that field, Gold considered too valuable except for critical must be perfect applications. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on February 09, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
When they switched from leaded to unleaded petrol the exhaust system of cars shortly after the engine where it is as hot as possible straight after the oxygen sensor  it has a part called a catalytic converter, looks like a small muffler but a little more football shape than totally square, inside is a fine screen or two of platinum. This is meant to be replaced after 200,000 km or about 130,000 miles. Theyre out there.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on February 09, 2013, 10:03:26 PM
When they switched from leaded to unleaded petrol the exhaust system of cars shortly after the engine where it is as hot as possible straight after the oxygen sensor  it has a part called a catalytic converter, looks like a small muffler but a little more football shape than totally square, inside is a fine screen or two of platinum. This is meant to be replaced after 200,000 km or about 130,000 miles. Theyre out there.

True, they use palladium mostly now because it is cheaper where they can, but some still require platinum Unc
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: RE on February 09, 2013, 11:09:47 PM
Once Outta Gas, nobody will need Pt or Pd for Catalytic Converters.  Once Outta Juice, nobody will need Gold or Silver for Electronics.  Once Outta FOOD, Pt, Pd, Ag  & Au all WORTHLESS.

Mountain House Freeze Dried Food?  Priceless.

(http://www.emergencyfoodsupplyguide.com/mountain-house-freeze-dried-food.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on February 10, 2013, 05:51:38 PM
Once Outta Gas, nobody will need Pt or Pd for Catalytic Converters.  Once Outta Juice, nobody will need Gold or Silver for Electronics.  Once Outta FOOD, Pt, Pd, Ag  & Au all WORTHLESS.

Mountain House Freeze Dried Food?  Priceless.

(http://www.emergencyfoodsupplyguide.com/mountain-house-freeze-dried-food.jpg)

RE

Out Of Mountain House Freeze Dried Food?  Priceless.

Anyone know how to make pemmican? I do.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Putin Turns Black Gold to Bullion Russia Outbuys World
Post by: g on February 11, 2013, 04:26:10 AM
Putin Turns Black Gold to Bullion as Russia Outbuys World
By Scott Rose and Olga Tanas - Feb 11, 2013

When Vladimir Putin says the U.S. is endangering the global economy by abusing its dollar monopoly, he’s not just talking. He’s betting on it.

Not only has Putin made Russia the world’s largest oil producer, he’s also made it the biggest gold buyer. His central bank has added 570 metric tons of the metal in the past decade, a quarter more than runner-up China, according to IMF data compiled by Bloomberg. The added gold is also almost triple the weight of the Statue of Liberty.

“The more gold a country has, the more sovereignty it will have if there’s a cataclysm with the dollar, the euro, the pound or any other reserve currency,” Evgeny Fedorov, a lawmaker for Putin’s United Russia party in the lower house of parliament, said in a telephone interview in Moscow.

Gold, coveted by Russian rulers including Tsar Nicholas II and the Bolshevik leader whose forces assassinated him, Vladimir Lenin, has soared almost 400 percent in the period of Putin’s purchases. Central banks around the world have printed money to escape the global financial crisis, sapping investor appetite for dollars and euros and setting off a scramble for safety.

In 1998, the year Russia defaulted on $40 billion of domestic debt, it took as many as 28 barrels of crude to buy an ounce of gold, data compiled by Bloomberg show. That ratio tumbled to 11.5 by the time Putin first came to power a year later and in 2005, after it touched 6.5 -- less than half what it is now -- the president told the central bank to buy.
Putin’s Call

During a tour that November of the Magadan region in the Far East, where Polyus Gold International Ltd. and Polymetal International Plc have operations, Putin told Bank Rossii not to “shy away” from the metal. “After all, they’re called gold and currency reserves for a reason,” Putin said, according to a Kremlin transcript.

At the time, gold was at an 18-year high of $495 an ounce and the Moscow-based central bank held 387 tons, or 2.2 percent of its $165 billion total reserves. The share reached 3.5 percent within a month, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-10/putin-turns-black-gold-into-bullion-as-russia-out-buys-world.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-10/putin-turns-black-gold-into-bullion-as-russia-out-buys-world.html)   :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: http: Does John Williams Sound Crazy?
Post by: g on February 11, 2013, 05:37:54 AM
The MSM tries to classify John Williams as a nutjob. His Shadowstats website pokes holes in the economic data reported by the government by calculating the true level of inflation being created by the Federal Reserve. He is a smart, cogent, reasonable man, with  an MBA from Dartmouth and the courage to speak the truth. Read this interview and decide for yourself whether he’s crazy.

John Williams: How to Survive the Illusion of Recovery

Source: JT Long of The Gold Report  (2/8/13)

John WilliamsThere is no economic recovery, and there are no signs that a recovery is coming, says Shadowstats.com author John Williams. In this Gold Report interview, he blames mal-adjusted inflation statistics for creating an alternate reality that overestimates economic activity in a way that is unsustainable. Williams warns that eventually the painful truth will be so difficult that even government manipulation won’t be able to deny it and that is when hyperinflation will take its toll on those who have not taken his advice for preserving purchasing power and securing wealth.

The Gold Report: The last few years have been very volatile for investors, particularly resource equity investors. The mainstream media, citing government statistics of improved employment rates and housing starts, called an end to the recession and is forecasting a slow recovery in 2013. You are looking at the same indicators, but coming up with different numbers. Let’s start with the unemployment rate. What are you seeing and why is it different than what we are hearing everywhere else?

John Williams: I contend that the economy effectively hit bottom in June 2009, followed by a period of somewhat volatile stagnation, and it is beginning to turn down anew. There never was a recovery and no economic data shows the type of recovery that the official gross domestic product (GDP) report is showing. The GDP shows levels of activity now that are above where the economy was before the recession. It’s been above that level now for more than a year. No other major economic series has shown a full recovery, shy of perhaps inflation-adjusted retail sales, which is due to a problem with the inflation rate used to adjust the series. Generally, the illusion of recovery has resulted from the government’s use of understated inflation.

TGR: Are you predicting a double-dip recession?

JW: It’s more like the pattern a fellow would take going off a ski jump. A plunge and then moving forward, maybe up a little bit and then plunging anew. The economy officially will be recognized as a double-dip recession at some point, but in reality it’s all part of the ongoing economic crisis that we’ve seen for the last five or six years.

TGR: One of the indicators people look at to determine the existence of a recession is the unemployment rate. Why you are seeing a different number for that than some of the officially announced numbers?

JW: Unemployment is a matter of how you define it. The government has six measures of unemployment. The headline number is the third level of unemployment (U3). That measures people actively seeking work in the last four weeks. That doesn’t mean just reading newspaper want ads; it is people mailing resumes and doing interviews. That number was reported at 7.9% for January, but that’s not the common experience. The broadest measure that the government has is U6. That includes the people defined as unemployed in U3 plus what they call “discouraged workers” and those who are working part-time for economic reasons, people who are underemployed. U6 was at 14.4% in January.

    “There never was a recovery and no economic data shows the type of recovery that the official GDP report is showing.”

If you accounted fully for all discouraged workers, not those who have been discouraged for less than a year as counted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics for U6, you’d find that the unemployment rate is up around 23%. The recession has gone on for so long that people have given up looking for work, but those individuals still consider themselves to be unemployed. If there were jobs available, they would take them, but the government doesn’t count them in the headline labor force statistic. That is why the official unemployment rate is shrinking while the number of people who want to work, but can’t find a job, has actually increased.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=48994 (http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=48994)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: American ‘cash 4 gold’ stores to face new regulations?
Post by: g on February 15, 2013, 01:08:40 AM
The "cash for gold" – or “cash 4 gold” if you prefer – business has been booming in recent years, but such ventures operating in America are facing the prospect of tighter regulation. This may include requirements to register clients' personal data and forward them to local police.

Currently no federal regulations require these stores to register clients' data. Advocates of the registration process argue that those who sell gold in the future will have to at least identify themselves with a valid driver's licence. Their personal data will then be directly transferred to federal officials through a computer system controlled by local law enforcement.

The owners of cash for gold stores do not approve of these measures (unsurprisingly). Not only do they worry about increased bureaucratic costs, but also about loosing future clientele, with potential traders discouraged by the prospect of their private details being entered into a government database. Data registration advocates argue that such measures are needed to combat the increasing trade in stolen gold.

Advertisements often claim that there could be “no better time” to sell old gold and silverware. Sellers are unaware that in times when central banks are printing record amounts of new money and with much economic uncertainty still abound, owning gold and other precious metals is a good way of preserving wealth.

Past reports show that the typical clientele of cash for gold stores usually sell precious metals in order to raise cash to cover outstanding bills. Those who oppose forwarding data to the authorities see these measures as part of a government scheme to gain a complete overview of all buying and selling activities in the non-banking sector. Many gold store owners argue that these regulations are targeting the wrong sector, as the big guys – in this case the banks – can do as they please while the small guys always get the beating.

Those who support stronger controls on this market argue that forcing cash for gold stores to record and forward their clients' data will not lead to noticeable problems for these businesses. The notion that these measures will help uncover gold thefts remains questionable.

www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/roman-baudzus/american-cash-for-gold-stores-to-face-new-regulations.html?print (http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/roman-baudzus/american-cash-for-gold-stores-to-face-new-regulations.html?print)  :icon_study:

 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Surly1 on February 15, 2013, 02:53:53 AM
It will certaily help the government identift the last remaining non bank stores of American assets. I am reminded of the article RE posted yesterday about coming French capital controls, taxing transactions over 1000 Euro. Unless you are Gerard Depardieu.


The noose tightens.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on February 15, 2013, 04:36:21 AM
Platinum & Palladium's Breakout Year (http://www.sprottphysicalbullion.com/sprott-physical-platinum-and-palladium-trust/platinum-palladiums-breakout-year/)

By: Rick Rule, David Franklin, David Baker and Shree Kargutkar

Hard assets are gaining momentum once again as market participants digest the potential impact of central bank printing initiatives. After last year's record level of central bank intervention, 2013 is gearing up to be an even more prolific year on the money-printing front.1 Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe recently unveiled Japan's tenth Quantitative Easing program to follow the country's current $224 billion stimulus announced on January 11th. The US Federal Reserve is steadily printing US$85 billion a month under its QE3 & QE4 programs, and reports indicate that the European Central Bank is close to launching its much-awaited Open Market Transaction (OMT) program to purchase European sovereign debt. It's a money-printing party and everyone's invited. Even the new Bank of England head, Mark Carney, has hinted of plans to launch more monetary stimulus.2

Professional investors have noticed and are expressing concern over the consequences of concerted currency devaluation and the continuation of zero-percent interest rates. PIMCO's Bill Gross, aka "The Bond King", is now regularly touting gold and hard assets as a prudent investment in 2013.3 While his advice appears to have fallen on deaf ears, interest in inflation protection is once again on the rise. We continue to believe that precious metals remain the place to be invested in this environment and are always interested in different avenues with which to participate in the sector's inevitable rise.

Despite being long-time precious metals enthusiasts and active investors in gold and silver, we did not focus on "the other precious metals", platinum or palladium, until very recently. Our interest in the space was ignited by a client's request to assess investment opportunities in the debt and equity of Platinum Group Metal (PGM) mining companies - an exercise that came up almost completely dry. As long-time resource equity investors, we are familiar with the mining industry's supply/demand cyclicality and the impact it has on commodity prices. Looking more closely at the PGM miners, the platinum and palladium industry reminds us of the uranium industry back in 2003. Like uranium, platinum and palladium are crucial to a number of important industrial applications where demand for them is relatively inelastic to price. And like uranium in 2003, palladium is also marked by an opaque, but rapidly diminishing foreign supply stockpile, which had previously balanced out the market and effectively capped the price. Investors will remember that uranium proceeded to perform extremely well from 2003 onwards based on the fundamental supply/demand imbalances that ensued. Our assessment of the PGM industry has led us to believe that platinum and palladium have the potential to do the same. The one difference being, however, that whereas in uranium, where we chose to build our exposure primarily through uranium mining equities, platinum and palladium exposure appears to be best gained through the metals themselves… hence the launch of the Sprott Physical Platinum & Palladium Trust this past December (NYSE Arca: SPPP, TSX: PPT.U).

PLATINUM

On January 15th, the world's largest platinum producer, Anglo American Platinum Ltd. (Amplats), announced plans to shut down several of its mines, resulting in the layoff of 14,000 mine workers and the reduction of approximately 400,000 ounces of annual platinum production. Given that global platinum mine production has averaged approximately 6.2 million ounces per year, the Amplats announcement is equivalent to almost 6% of global annual mine production in 2012, representing a substantial shortfall to the metal's supply/demand balance.4 The platinum spot price appreciated by over $30/oz following this announcement out of South Africa.

Our desire to launch the Sprott Physical Platinum & Palladium Trust was partly based on an expectation of further supply disruptions out of South Africa, which produces close to 75% of the world's annual platinum supply and 37% of the world's palladium. Union-led labour strife has become a growing concern in the country, where some 46 people were killed this past summer in violent strikes at Lonmin's platinum mine in Marikana. The labour unrest has come at a time when the industry is already suffering from persistent operating challenges and declining profit margins (see Figure A). The geological nature and depth of many of the country's platinum mines requires large amounts of manual labour, and South African mine workers have become increasingly politicized in their struggle for higher wages. At today's platinum price, however, most platinum miners are unprofitable after netting out the costs of labour, electricity and equipment required to produce the metal. Many are cash flow negative and cannot meet the workers' request for higher wages without sustaining further losses. Roger Baxter, senior executive at the Chamber of Mines of South Africa, recently stated that at least 50% of the country's platinum industry is marginal or in a loss-making position today.5 In addition, many of the mining operations are suffering from declining ore grades, further lowering mine output. The result has been a 25% decline in annual South African platinum production since 2006. As the Amplats decision plainly underscored, at today's prices, platinum mining in South Africa is simply no longer a profitable affair.

FIGURE A: PRODUCTION MARGIN AND BASKET PRICE
(http://www.sprottphysicalbullion.com/media/9386/breakout-year-chart1.gif)
Source: CIBC World Markets Equity Research 2012, PGM Basket consists of Platinum (~60%), Palladium (~30%) and Rhodium
(~10%)


FIGURE B
(http://www.sprottphysicalbullion.com/media/9398/breakout-year-fig-b.gif)
Source: Johnson Matthey Platinum 2012 Interim Review

The impact of South Africa's mining woes has completely shifted the platinum market's supply fundamentals over the past year, moving it from a state of oversupply in 2011 to a net supply deficit in 2012 (see Figure B). The recent developments in South Africa strongly suggest platinum's supply deficit will continue into 2013, supporting the platinum spot price and potentially moving it to much higher levels. In fact, some industry estimates have suggested the platinum market will experience a deficit as high as 760,000 ounces in 2013.6 Platinum miners will not be able to increase production unless the platinum price rises to a level capable of incentivizing further development.

On the demand side, platinum has benefitted from a steady demand for auto catalysts, which constitutes the metal's primary industrial usage. Platinum and palladium both possess chemical properties that help reduce pollutants produced by gasoline and diesel engines, significantly lowering the air pollution produced by automobiles. Just as we believe the platinum price must go up to incentivize new mine production out of South Africa, the platinum price is further supported by the fact that it CAN go up, because of the relative in-elasticity of the demand for its catalytic utility. The average automobile (worldwide) carries a mere $212 worth of platinum group metals per vehicle, making the impact of any platinum price increase on the total wholesale cost of an automobile relatively marginal.7 In China, for example, where pollution is a critical problem, air pollution levels of 300 or above regularly prompt the US embassy to issue warnings to minimize outdoor or strenuous activity. Air particulate levels in Beijing have often been above 500 recently, sometimes crossing over 700. In response, Beijing has recently tightened emissions standards for new cars to meet European Union Standards, or Euro V, starting February 1st.8 Increasing the platinum/palladium loadings per catalytic converter is one feasible way of directly addressing this growing problem, as the demand for automobiles in China is expected to grow steadily over the next five years. Platinum has also benefited from increasing demand for its usage in jewellery, particularly in China, where it is considered to be superior to gold. According to refiner Johnson Matthey, China is expected to have consumed 1.92 million ounces of platinum in 2012, representing 70% of the overall global platinum jewellery consumption of 2.73 million ounces.9 That total is likely to increase as demand rises in other countries as well. In India, for example, platinum demand is estimated to have increased by 25% this past year, representing a new high of 100,000 ounces.10 As emerging markets growth continues, we expect platinum jewellery demand to increase along with it.

PALLADIUM

The palladium story is similar to that for platinum from a demand perspective, but has a different supply picture that makes it more compelling in our view. Palladium generally occurs with platinum and other PGM metals and is usually associated with nickel and copper. Like platinum, palladium's main industrial usage is in catalytic converters, most notably in gasoline engines. It is also used in jewellery, watchmaking, dentistry, surgical instruments and electrical contacts.

Almost 40% of the world's annual palladium mine supply comes from Russia, primarily through operations at Norilsk. Russia, naturally, does not provide much information on its palladium stockpiles, but various reporting agencies are able to piece together reliable estimates for annual supply and demand.

The palladium market is tight, and appears to be getting tighter. It has gone from a 1.26 million ounce surplus in 2011 to a 915,000 ounce deficit in 2012. This represents a swing of over 2 million ounces this year due to contracting supply, increasing gross demand and diminished recycling, resulting in a supply decrease of 790,000 ounces (see Figure E). If you factor in the ~200,000 ounces we purchased in our Trust, the deficit for 2012 increases to 1.15 million oz.11

As bullish as we are on the supply dynamics of platinum, it is palladium that appears to be poised to move higher in the short-term. The palladium market is now in supply deficit globally and will experience a residual deficit in 2013 even after existing stockpile sales are taken into account. Russia has historically maintained a sizeable palladium stockpile which has represented a key source of supply over the past two decades. 2012 reports suggested that that stockpile was nearing depletion, with sales expected to fall below 100,000 ounces in 2013, versus the 250,000 ounces that are believed to have been sold last year.12 Those numbers were also supported by Swiss PGM data, where the most recent 2012 numbers show Russian palladium shipments running 72% lower than the same period in 2011.13 All of this was recently confirmed by Norilsk itself, when an executive conceded in an interview on November 29th (and later confirmed by industry watchers like GFMS this past January) that the supply overhang from Russian stockpiles is officially close to being depleted. If this proves to be true, it will represent a significant shift in supply, since those stockpiles were a main contributor in balancing the palladium market for the last ten years.

FIGURE E
(http://www.sprottphysicalbullion.com/media/9403/breakout-year-fig-e.gif)
Source: Johnson Matthey Platinum 2012 Interim Review

One other bullish palladium supply factor relates to the Norilsk mines themselves, which produce more palladium than the next four largest palladium producers combined. Norilsk's 2012 palladium production is expected to account for 42% of global supply. Despite higher prices, Norilsk is not expected to expand its annual palladium production for at least 10 years, because that's how long it will take to develop the new mines it requires to increase production. In addition, the existing operations are reported to be having difficulty maintaining their average 2.7 million ounces of annual production due to diminishing ore grades at depth within the ore bodies Norilsk is mining. With Russian state supplies dwindling, and Norilsk's palladium production flat at best, the supply picture in 2013 has a very high probability of tightening further. This is especially likely if South Africa's 1.5 million ounces of palladium production is also impacted by further strikes and mine shutdowns.

Palladium demand has been robust, having risen by 15% year-over-year in 2012 to 9.73 million ounces.14 The growth has been primarily driven by increased use in autocatalysts, the demand for which alone is forecasted to increase by 7% in 2013. Given the probability of tightening supply in the years ahead, we could potentially see a hoarding reaction by industry users as supply constraints become more pronounced. In year 2000, a similar reaction by industry users led palladium to trade over $1,000/ ounce. It is also interesting to note that palladium has the second highest amount of short positions in the futures market in relation to total annual production - second only to that for silver. The reversal of those short contracts may represent a significant source of investment demand as prices continue to rise.15

SUMMARY

The timing of the launch of the Sprott Physical Platinum & Palladium Trust has been favourable thus far. Supply problems out of South Africa will be the driving force behind platinum's price appreciation, while palladium will benefit from the depletion of Russian stockpiles and flat production from Norilsk. Both metals have the potential to see significant demand increases as the autocatalyst market benefits from growing global auto sales, which reached a record 80 million units sold in 2012.

As at February 2013, the Sprott Physical Platinum & Palladium Trust now holds 81,486 ounces of platinum and 186,098 ounces of palladium in bullion form. The Trust is structured similar to our existing Sprott Physical Gold Trust (NYSE Arca: PHYS, TSX: PHY.U) and Sprott Physical Silver Trust (NYCE Arca: PSLV, TSX PHS.U), but differs in that it initially holds approximately equal dollar amounts of platinum and palladium.

We aim to publish more updates in the coming months to analyze developments in the markets for both metals. Although platinum and palladium share gold and silver's "precious metal" categorization, they represent significantly smaller markets in terms of physical production, making them much more responsive to the supply constraints and demand increases that we foresee for both. It is also worth noting that relatively little of the total annual platinum and palladium supply actually makes it to "market" - with the vast majority sold directly to fabricators. Our Trust's December purchases represent 1.3% of 2012's platinum mine supply and almost 3% of palladium supply. If investment demand for platinum/palladium were to grow in an environment where supply is further constrained, it could indeed have a large impact on the spot price for both metals going forward.

Precious metal investors are encouraged to review platinum and palladium's unique supply/demand dynamics. We believe 2013 will be an exciting year for both metals, and that's without even considering what could happen to the precious metals sector as a whole.

1    As measured by the balance sheets of the four largest central banks. At the end of 2012 the total balance sheets of the Bank of Japan, the US Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank and Bank of England stood at $9.4 trillion USD
2    Kennedy, Simon and Ryan, Jennifer (January 28, 2013) "Carney urges central banks to achieve 'escape velocity' for economies; still room for stimulus". Financial Post. Retrieved on February 1, 2013 from: http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/28/carney-urges-central-banks-to-achieve-escape-velocity-for-economies-still-room-for-stimulus/ (http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/28/carney-urges-central-banks-to-achieve-escape-velocity-for-economies-still-room-for-stimulus/)
3    Gross, William H. (February 2013) "Credit Supernova!". PIMCO. Retrieved on February 1, 2013 from: http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Credit-Supernova.aspx (http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Credit-Supernova.aspx)
4    Johnson Matthey (November 2012), Platinum 2012 Interim Review
5    Clark, Jeanette (January 31, 2013) "SA Platinum, gold mining electricity costs up $780m since 2007". Mineweb. Retrieved on February 1, 2013 from: http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-whats-new?oid=175591&sn=Detail (http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-whats-new?oid=175591&sn=Detail)
6    MacDonald, Alex (February 2, 2013) "Platinum Market Seen Producing Deficit of up to 760,000 Ounces in 2013 - CEO". 4-traders. Retrieved on February 3, 2013 from: http://www.4-traders.com/AQUARIUS-PLATINUM-LIMITED-9058842/news/Platinum-Market-Seen-Producing-Deficit-of-up-to-760-000-Ounces-in-2013-CEO-16006147/ (http://www.4-traders.com/AQUARIUS-PLATINUM-LIMITED-9058842/news/Platinum-Market-Seen-Producing-Deficit-of-up-to-760-000-Ounces-in-2013-CEO-16006147/)
7    The catalyst formulation and loading used varies greatly from one vehicle to another based on the engine's control strategy, the relevant emissions control legislation, the engine's size and where the catalyst is positioned on the car. The worldwide average platinum group metal content is around 4-5 grams per car, but the range is very wide - from 1 g on microcars to 15 g or more for larger, more powerful vehicles.
8    Bloomberg News (January 28, 2013) "Beijing Smog Prompts Car-Emissions Tightening: Chart of the Day". Bloomberg News. Retrieved on February 2, 2013 from: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/beijing-smog-prompts-car-emissions-tightening-chart-of-the-day.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/beijing-smog-prompts-car-emissions-tightening-chart-of-the-day.html)
9    Johnson Matthey (November 2012), Platinum 2012 Interim Review
10    Ibid.
11    Ibid.
12    Wallop, Clementine (January 30, 2013) "Norilsk sees palladium output flat in 2013". MarketWatch. Retrieved on February 1, 2013 from: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/norilsk-sees-palladium-output-flat-in-2013-2013-01-30 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/norilsk-sees-palladium-output-flat-in-2013-2013-01-30)
13    Barclays Commodities Research, December 20, 2012
14    Johnson Matthey (November 2012), Platinum 2012 Interim Review
15    Nick Laird "Days of World Production to Cover Short Positions" chart. Retrieved from: http://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/home (http://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/home)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Is This Where The Secret JP Morgan London Gold Vault Is
Post by: g on February 16, 2013, 05:23:14 PM
Is This Where The Secret JP Morgan London Gold Vault Is Located?

In a world defined by "financial innovation", where $1 of hard collateral can spawn over $1000 in repoed and rehypothecated liabilities (and assets [34]), where "shadow banking" is far more important than traditional bank liabilities (and to this date remains completely misunderstood [35]), and where every month the central and commercial banks force create over $100 billion in credit money (which end consumers refuse to absorb and which therefore ends up in the stock market), the concept of a "hard asset" is an increasingly redundant anachronism. Yet while the Federal Reserve has emerged as the bastion of the New Normal's financial innovation front in which the concept of money is backed by absolutely nothing other than the Dollar's increasingly fleeting reserve status, when it comes to the definition of "Old Normal" money - gold - it still is the domain of the first and original central bank: London.



    J.P. Morgan recently integrated its gold vaulting service in London with its tri-party collateral agency service.

        J.P. Morgan operates one of the two largest commercial gold vaults in London (one of only six in the City) and is a member of the London gold clearing system.
        J.P. Morgan is also one of the few truly global providers of collateral management services. As collateral agent, J.P. Morgan works with two parties that have an established collateralized lending or financing arrangement.

Who is the other largest commercial gold vault in London? Why HSBC of course: the bank which has recently been embroiled in virtually every scandal involving global money laundering, also happens to be the custodian for such massive (supposedly) physical gold repositories as those of the SPDR Gold GLD [40]ETF. The HSBC gold vault is also known as "Gold's secret hiding place [41]" as CNBC penned it, when Bob Pisani was allowed to take a look deep inside the vault's bowels but only after he was theatrically blindfolded (a visit which we commented on at the time [42]).

Yet Pisani's blindfold, while theatrical, was premeditated: the number of people who know where the HSBC vault is located is a handful, because the last thing commercial gold vaults, and certainly their customers, would want to deal with is a Simon Gruber-type Die Hard 2-style goldjacking.

                                           
JPM downloads
JPM downloads

                                           
Bollards north view 0
Bollards north view 0

  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-16/where-secret-jp-morgan-london-gold-vault-located (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-16/where-secret-jp-morgan-london-gold-vault-located)   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: In The Strange Case Of Gold's Regular Morning Mugging
Post by: g on February 21, 2013, 05:13:53 AM
The precious metals are routinely sold off at or soon after the 8:20am EST morning open of the New York NYMEX exchange.

Below are the daily gold price charts (source: Kitco [10]) for each Monday (or Tuesday, if Monday was a holiday) since early this year. The current day's gold price is noted by the bright green line. The morning takedown is highlighted by the orange oval.

Volume & Timing

Running the above data by Chris, he noted two additional observations.

The first is that the price suppression is commencing increasingly in advance of the start of the NYMEX's open outcry [11] process at 8:20am EST [12] (i.e., how trading happens at the NYMEX). This suggests that it's being done on behalf of powerful players granted permission to circumvent the rules.

The Conundrum

It's hard to swallow that these charts are evidence of a free and efficient market. Otherwise, a pattern this predictable would be quickly removed as traders and HFT algos piled in to a "sure" bet.

Instead, this is behavior one would expect to see if powerful interests wanted to suppress the price of gold: hit the price hard and early at the start of the trading week to prevent the price from building upward momentum, as well as to make capital think twice before entering the gold market.

Who is doing this selling at the market open? Is it TBTF ("too big to fail") banks making profit on large short positions? Is it the Fed, through proxies, keeping the gold price contained so as not to signal how badly QE is devaluing the dollar? Allegations swarm across the Internet that it's one of these – or both. But we don't know for certain. The exchanges don't make that information available to the public.

But while these charts above are not enough evidence to prove that the gold price is being manipulated, they sure exhibit the symptoms one would expect to see if it is.

                                                   
large gold price 2 19 13
large gold price 2 19 13

          http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-20/strange-case-golds-regular-morning-mugging (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-20/strange-case-golds-regular-morning-mugging)  :( :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News : US Probes 5 Major Banks in Gold Price Fixing
Post by: g on March 14, 2013, 08:06:25 PM
Did five banks control the price of gold in the world's largest market? Tatyana Shumksy reports on a new price-fixing investigation.

Whether the probe will be an investigation or a coverup remains to be seen.  :-\

http://on.wsj.com/16uC7Uw (http://on.wsj.com/16uC7Uw)   :icon_study:

                                                         
Gold
Title: Re: Gold & Silver :Former US Treasury Official - Fed Desperate To Avoid Collapse
Post by: g on March 15, 2013, 11:23:21 PM


Today a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury told King World News, “... the dollar is the vulnerable spot in the Fed’s policy management, and the popping of the bubble is likely to come from the dollar.”  Former Assistant of the US Treasury, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, also warned King World News that a financial collapse is coming, and the Fed is desperately manipulating the gold price in an attempt to avoid the collapse.


Here is what Dr. Roberts had to say in this extraordinary and exclusive interview:  “A lot of people just can’t imagine that the government would fix the gold price.  And yet, in full view, the government fixes the bond price, and the banks fix the LIBOR rate.  So why is it people can’t comprehend that the government would fix the price of gold (laughter ensues)?”

kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/3/15_Former_US_Treasury_Official_-_Fed_Desperate_To_Avoid_Collapse.html   :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on March 16, 2013, 05:39:27 AM
May I plead with any Diners who are interested in a no bull shit clear and concise view of our current and future outlook to find the time to listen to this outstanding interview. Please, do not be fooled by Mr Celente's down to earth simple language, there are very few more aware of what is going on. FIVE STAR ***** rating from GO.  :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:
                           
                                      http://www.youtube.com/v/cB2u11GaDlE&fs=1

RE, For your information Gerald has been using the term Financial Fascism for years, your recent posting on what to call our current system came to mind; you are indeed correct in stating this fact. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on March 17, 2013, 06:39:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/RTVoUhV1v_8&fs=1     :dontknow:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Coming To a Bank Near You
Post by: g on March 18, 2013, 05:47:41 AM
The Burning Platform has it Correct in my View  :-[

Make no mistake about it, this will happen in the United States at some point in the not too distant future. This is theft pure and simple. If you think the money you have in banks is yours, read this story and realize they will abscond with it whenever they choose to change the rules. Do you think your 401k is safe from the grubby hands of the government? You are naive. The ruling class don’t care about rules, laws or good faith. They have already pillaged most of the wealth in this country and they will not hesitate to steal the money out of your bank account. Bankers and politicians in Europe will do whatever it takes to protect the interests of the rich and powerful oligarchs. The bankers and politicians in this country are no different.

It will happen on a weekend. They will shutdown the ATMs. They will shut down the ability to electronically transfer money. Banks will close their doors. They will not announce their intentions in advance. They will proclaim that their actions are being done for the good of the country. In reality, they will be stealing your money in order to maintain their control, power and wealth. This blatant act of criminality being committed against the citizens of Cyprus by the Eurocrats is a warning shot to all citizens of the debt saturated, banker controlled developed world.

If you are one of those who believe it can’t happen here, then you haven’t studied history. It was exactly 80 years ago this month when FDR announced a banking holiday and declared that possession of gold was immediately illegal. The government set the price at which American citizens would receive when they handed over their gold to the government. Federal agents broke into safe deposit boxes and took the gold. It is much easier to steal our wealth today. In an instant they can electronically vaporize your wealth.

As the oligarchs grow more desperate they will grow more extreme in their efforts to retain power. This is why they are trying to take our guns. They do not want an armed populace resisting when they try to abscond with our money. The only way to avoid this fate is to have cash in your possession, along with gold and silver. Be armed and be prepared to fight them. They are evil men and we will need to defeat them.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=51114 (http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=51114)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Coming To a Bank Near You
Post by: Snowleopard on March 18, 2013, 08:38:33 AM
The Burning Platform has it Correct in my View  :-[

Make no mistake about it, this will happen in the United States at some point in the not too distant future. This is theft pure and simple. If you think the money you have in banks is yours, read this story and realize they will abscond with it whenever they choose to change the rules. Do you think your 401k is safe from the grubby hands of the government? You are naive. The ruling class don’t care about rules, laws or good faith. They have already pillaged most of the wealth in this country and they will not hesitate to steal the money out of your bank account. Bankers and politicians in Europe will do whatever it takes to protect the interests of the rich and powerful oligarchs. The bankers and politicians in this country are no different.

It will happen on a weekend. They will shutdown the ATMs. They will shut down the ability to electronically transfer money. Banks will close their doors. They will not announce their intentions in advance. They will proclaim that their actions are being done for the good of the country. In reality, they will be stealing your money in order to maintain their control, power and wealth. This blatant act of criminality being committed against the citizens of Cyprus by the Eurocrats is a warning shot to all citizens of the debt saturated, banker controlled developed world.

If you are one of those who believe it can’t happen here, then you haven’t studied history. It was exactly 80 years ago this month when FDR announced a banking holiday and declared that possession of gold was immediately illegal. The government set the price at which American citizens would receive when they handed over their gold to the government. Federal agents broke into safe deposit boxes and took the gold. It is much easier to steal our wealth today. In an instant they can electronically vaporize your wealth.

As the oligarchs grow more desperate they will grow more extreme in their efforts to retain power. This is why they are trying to take our guns. They do not want an armed populace resisting when they try to abscond with our money. The only way to avoid this fate is to have cash in your possession, along with gold and silver. Be armed and be prepared to fight them. They are evil men and we will need to defeat them.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=51114 (http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=51114)  :icon_study:

Greetings from Lurker county, village of Pain!

My two and a half cents:

I have no doubt that they will come after bank accounts, guns, gold and whatever else they want when it serves their purposes.
 
We know what they are, they have licensed themselves to steal, so why lend them our fiat?  The only defense we have is to be our own bankers, disconnect from the corp-rat/gov/mil system, and look too poor to rob.  Maybe not so easy a pose for most, but worth working toward.

As for the arms, coming after them will be a declaration of war against the citizens.  It can have no other real purpose.  The current massive demand for weapons shows that many are aware. 

To be clear, if they confiscated or bought back 99% of the legal guns in USA there would still be more than ten times the arms per capita in USA that existed in Ireland when the IRA kept the British Army tied up for decades.  The non border with Mexico would easily supply replacements not available from farm "shops" and decades old burials.   Furthermore, once fighting begins, people die and guns mostly don't.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on March 18, 2013, 09:07:01 AM
Quote
The only defense we have is to be our own bankers, disconnect from the corp-rat/gov/mil system, and look too poor to rob.  Maybe not so easy a pose for most, but worth working toward.

I am with you Snowleopard, Learn to live on the other side of the tracks as the Archdruid JMG said in the interview. It is a very viable ploy, have used it and it works rather well. No time to be living in a mansion or driving a shiny new BMW me thinks.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Jim Willie: The Collapse is At Our Doorstep!
Post by: g on March 19, 2013, 07:02:25 AM
Have been following Mr Willie for a decade, Top shelf, big head, no nonsense analyst. Say's collapse is here and now at our doorstep. Sobering interview to say the least. :-[

                                   http://www.youtube.com/v/O05FqBe3ND0&fs=1

 :icon_study: :icon_study:  :'(
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Texas May Start Hoarding Gold…Secession Next?
Post by: g on March 22, 2013, 07:57:20 AM
 :multiplespotting:

We all know the cliché: ‘Don’t mess with Texas.’

Well, a new piece of legislation is being proposed to send that message to Washington, when it comes to protecting Texas’ gold.

A lawmaker has proposed a bill to create a Texas Bullion Depository, which would allow the state and its citizens to store gold bullion in its own facility in Texas, with the protection of the state.


If passed, the Texas bill would tell Washington to “shove off” under the 10th amendment power given the states, if we ever saw the kind of currency craziness we saw during the Great Depression when President Franklin D. Roosevelt mandated citizens hand over most of their gold.

Texas isn't the first state to think about hedging its monetary destiny with precious metals.

Related: Don't Sell Your Gold and Silver Coins: Jim Rogers

Citing concerns over the value of the U.S. dollar, Arizona lawmakers are the latest to pursue legislation that would declare privately minted gold and silver coins legal tender. In 2011, Utah became the first state in the country to legalize these precious metal coins as currency. Lawmakers in states including Minnesota, North Carolina, Idaho, South Carolina, and Colorado have debated similar laws.

As for the Texas proposal, Jim Rickards, senior managing director of Tangent Capital Partners and author of Currency Wars, tells The Daily Ticker you can think of it like the “Fort Knox of Texas.”

And on the legal side Rickards says, “you’ve got the state of Texas standing up for you if the federal government tries to do what they tried to do in 1933, which is take the people’s gold." Rickards is also a lawyer and has read the legislation.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/SIG=15eh9jfn4/ (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/SIG=15eh9jfn4/)*http%3A//us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/topfinstories/SIG=13bt2m60r/*http%3A//finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/texas-may-start-hoarding-gold-secession-next-192407075.html?l=1          :icon_study: :icon_study:    :emthup: :emthup: ;D :exp-grin:

                                                            [Limit reached]
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Eddie on March 22, 2013, 09:06:24 AM
A damn fine idea, and one I hope will come to fruition.  Secession, however is not in the cards, imho. We lost that war already, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on March 22, 2013, 09:40:50 AM
A damn fine idea, and one I hope will come to fruition.  Secession, however is not in the cards, imho. We lost that war already, unfortunately.

I'm with you Doc, nothing like sound honest money. Just the feel of it brings the words sound, solid, precious, Integrity and many others to mind. Bankster plastic and confetti, just the opposite.
                                                                     
                                                           
                                                     

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Recent History of the U.S. Dollar
Post by: g on March 24, 2013, 05:23:58 AM
Recent History of the U.S. Dollar                                  :icon_study:
 
“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”—George Orwell

Since leaving the gold standard in 1972, the U.S. dollar has progressed through a number of cyclical periods of strength and weakness based ostensibly on the perceived strength of the U.S. economic and monetary conditions backing the currency. Understanding this cyclical history is an important factor to identifying the future of the U.S. dollar.

Prior to 1972, the U.S. dollar was the singular world reserve currency supported by U.S. gold reserves, at that point representing 60% of all global coffers. The terms of the 1944 fixed exchange rate Bretton Woods Accord dictated that the U.S. dollar would serve as the benchmark currency for all participating currencies, keeping the U.S. dollar pegged at $35 per ounce of gold through the purchase and sale of these U.S. gold reserves. Non-U.S. currencies would subsequently peg their currencies to the U.S. dollar by buying or selling dollars in order to keep their respective currency stable.

The Bretton Woods Accord implicitly relied on the U.S. central bank to maintain prudent monetary policies with respect to domestic initiatives. The post-World War II manufacturing and housing revival of the 1950s, along with the population “baby boom,” provided the U.S. economy with stable growth prospects throughout the decade. This period of relative prosperity was subsequently shared with the broader population during the 1960s through President Kennedy's “New Frontier” welfare and education programs and President Johnson's “Great Society” initiatives, which included the addition of Medicare and Medicaid to the Social Security Act. Later in the decade, military spending was simultaneously increased with escalations of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War and continued Cold War tensions with the Soviet Union.

The Tide Changes
These monetary measures ultimately led to accelerating U.S. inflation rates toward the beginning of the 1970s, inciting a decline in confidence in the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency. Foreign central banks became weary of purchasing excess dollars in order to keep their respective pegs stable against a declining U.S. dollar, and demanded that the Federal Reserve repurchase these dollars with gold reserves.

Rather than tightening fiscal policy in light of high single-digit inflation, the U.S. Federal Reserve increased monetary initiatives even further in an effort to stimulate slowing economic activity, while implementing price controls to stall inflation. Not surprisingly, these initiatives had an opposite effect of generating support for the U.S. dollar, and additional foreign central banks joined West Germany in requesting gold reserves for U.S. dollar currencies. President Nixon ultimately surrendered to the pressure of maintaining the U.S. dollar peg to gold by withdrawing from the Bretton Woods Accord in August 1971, and began the U.S. dollar free-floating cycle. (Figure #1)


[Limit reached]    Click to enlarge


First Weakening Signs Appear
The withdrawal from the Bretton Woods Accord and suspension of U.S. dollar transferability into gold brought about the first phase in U.S. dollar weakening against competing currencies. High levels of inflation, deficit spending, negative balance of payments, price controls, and debt doubling from $322 billion in 1972 to $640 billion in 19791 further heightened concern over the value of the U.S. dollar. To address the balance of payments, the U.S. Congress determined that the U.S. should follow a weak dollar policy in order to make exports more attractive. As a replacement to Bretton, the December 1971 Smithsonian Agreement allowed for a more controlled devaluation of the U.S. dollar by resetting its peg to gold from $35 per ounce to eventually $42 per ounce, but the system was ultimately abandoned in 1973 with continued weakness in the U.S. dollar.

The U.S. dollar began reversing its weakening trend by the early 1980s with fresh monetary and fiscal policy approaches, but not without enduring a deep recession through 1982. The election of President Reagan and his administration's policies to reduce inflation included reduced spending and higher interest rates, although the president's vision to return the U.S. dollar back to the gold standard likely provided a considerable amount of perceived strength for the U.S. dollar. President Reagan reduced entitlement programs and government regulations while simultaneously lowering tax rates to generate growth. Although deficit spending did expand to peak at $212 billion by 1985, it returned back to $150 billion by the end of the decade.2 Nevertheless, these pro-growth and fiscal discipline measures helped to strengthen the U.S. dollar through 1985.

By the mid-1980s, the ensuing 50% appreciation in the U.S. dollar had the unintended consequence of increasing the balance of payments deficit by reducing U.S. exports and making U.S. product pricing uncompetitive globally. Major U.S. manufacturing and industries began lobbying Congress for increased protectionist regulations in the U.S. in order to increase competitiveness of U.S. goods. Instead, the U.S. met with France, West Germany, Japan, and the United Kingdom in 1985 to sign the Plaza Accord in order to coordinate central bank operations to reduce the value of the U.S. dollar. The result was a successful depreciation in the value of the U.S. dollar between 1985 and 1995.

The mid-1995 inflection point for the U.S. dollar began when Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin announced that the U.S. favored a “strong dollar policy.”3 Although this change in policy was not necessarily implemented through central bank initiatives, the rhetoric had the initial impact of stemming the weakening trend of the U.S. dollar. Despite President Clinton's first-term initiatives to propose universal health care expansion, the President also favored free market mechanisms, smaller government, and reduced welfare spending.4 At the same time, the U.S. economy experienced healthy growth from increased global trade opportunities with the fall of the Berlin Wall, a surging stock market due to technology advancement, and the only four years of government budget surplus back to 1972.5 The cyclical U.S. dollar strength resulting from this period of relative prosperity continued to 2001, ending with the bursting of the technology stock market bubble and the accompanying recession.

The weakening U.S. dollar trend that began in the early 2000s appears to be continuing today, and with limited relief in sight. Budget deficits remain at the trillion-dollar level, federal debt has exceeded 100% of GDP, unemployment remains in the high single digits, and political disunity seems to be at an extreme.

Any end in sight to this environment seems remote, at best. That is until the U.S. learns from our past and commits to making the tough choices needed to right the ship. There are more than a handful of necessary changes, but finding a balance between excessive spending initiatives and limited revenue resources along with eliminating the dependence on leverage would seem to be toward the top of the list. In any event, the great unknown continues to support the importance of diversification.

Sincerely,
Mike Meyer
Assistant Vice President
EverBank World Markets, a division of EverBank

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Dutch Megabank ABN Amro halts physical delivery of gold
Post by: monsta666 on March 25, 2013, 04:55:12 AM
Wonder what people will make of this especially if this policy is repeated by other major banking outlets. I think the best course of action is to only accept physical delivery of gold before any financial institution decides to impose restrictions on how you invest in gold. As the recent Cyprus debacle clearly demonstrates the rules of the game can change at the drop of the hat. Be especially cautious if there is a long weekend approaching as banks seem to favour those periods to make unpopular rule changes.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Another Gold Shortage? Dutch ABN To Halt Physical Gold Delivery (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-24/another-gold-shortage-abn-halt-physical-gold-delivery)

Based on a letter to clients over the weekend, it appears Dutch megabank ABN Amro is changing its precious metals custodian rules and "will no longer allow physical delivery." Have no fear, they reassuringly add, your account will be settled at the bid or offer price in the 'market' and "you need to do nothing" as "we have your investments in precious metals."

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/03/ABN_0.png)

Via Google Translate,

Changes in the handling of orders in bullion

On 1 April 2013,. ABN AMRO to another custodian for the precious metals gold, silver, platinum and palladium. This we your investments in precious metals otherwise handle and administer. In this letter you can read more about it.

What will change?

With the transition to the new custodian will include the following from 1 April 2013 for you to change.
• You can have your precious metals to your investment account no longer physically let us extradite
• Gives you order in precious metals via the giro ABN AMRO? Then the settlement of orders that henceforth performed at bid prices or at the offer prices prevailing on the market for precious metals. No longer based on the mid-price, as you used to.
• The bid price is the price that merchants offer for precious metals that are offered for sale, so if you sell.
• The ask price is the price at which traders want to sell precious metals, so if you buy.
• We are the positions in these precious metals in your investment statements against future bid prices appreciate

You can read more about investing in precious metals in Chapter 4 (Supplementary conditions for investing in precious metals) of the Conditions Beleggersgiro. You can find these at abnamro.nl / Conditions invest

Should I do anything?

You need do nothing. We ensure that we have your investments in precious metals now the new way to handle and administer.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on March 25, 2013, 05:09:39 AM
Quote
Wonder what people will make of this especially if this policy is repeated by other major banking outlets. I think the best course of action is to only accept physical delivery of gold before any financial institution decides to impose restrictions on how you invest in gold. As the recent Cyprus debacle clearly demonstrates the rules of the game can change at the drop of the hat. Be especially cautious if there is a long weekend approaching as banks seem to favour those periods to make unpopular rule changes.

Would appear a Gold coin in the hand is worth more than a dozen in the bank. 

Trust us, we are taking good care of your Gold and savings for you.  Honestly, we do God's work.

                                                          [Limit reached] 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Cyprus, Gold, & The World’s Money Masters
Post by: g on March 26, 2013, 07:29:37 AM
 On the heels of continued chaos in Europe, and a world that seems to be teetering on the edge, today the Godfather of newsletter writers, Richard Russell, discusses the crisis in Cyprus, gold, the world’s money masters and global markets.  Below is what Russell had to say to subscribers:   :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:

At any time in history, there is a great and all-encompassing THEME.  And I've wondered what the theme of today could be -- what is the great theme of our times?  I grew up in different times during the '30s and 40s.  The theme of my youth was -- stop the dictators, Hitler and Mussolini, from taking over the world.


This is what I believe the theme of our times is.  We are in a period where the “haves” are determined to hold on to their positions in the world.  The “haves” include the world's leaders and politicians, and the world's “masters of the earth,” which includes those who control the world's money.


Those who control the money make the rules, and their main aim is to remain in power.  Currently, the various central banks control the creation and the issuance of money.  To ensure that they remain in power, the central banks are spewing forth a veritable avalanche of fiat currency, money created out of a computer -- money that has been created out of “thin air.”  In turn, we are supposed to bow down and thank the money creators, those who are saving us from a new world depression.


At this time, although no banker will admit it, we are experiencing an international currency war.  Every nation wants a cheap, competitive currency.  It's a system better known as “beggar thy neighbor.”  Further, here in the US, the Federal Reserve has driven interest rates down to almost zero.


The zero interest rates are calculated to force people into equities, or better still, into housing.  The average man has little or no savings, and if he does have any savings, he can't find any place that will take his money and produce an income.


In this whole process, debt has been created to an extent never seen before in history.  So far, the debt has been managed with super-low interest rates and borrowing.  But the compounding process goes on, and the debt mountain continues to grow.  So, to be brief, I see the theme of today as the “haves” doing whatever they have to -- to remain in power.


The dangers in the background for the haves are the possibilities that (1) interest rates will begin to advance, and (2) inflation will rise and be so visible that even the common man will recognize it, and begin to protest, or even revolt and (3) the whole debt structure will rise so high that it will topple over of its own weight and take down the entire world economy with it.


So to sum up my search for a THEME, the theme of today is the “haves” remaining in power, and in doing so, also keeping the “have-nots” content and happy.  Everything we are dealing with now, including stocks, bonds, real estate and possible sources of income revolves around the central theme that I have presented.


One further comment.  The key to control by the “haves” is the production of fiat, unbacked money.  Gold is the enemy of money created out of a computer.  When gold was removed as a discipline behind money, those who could create money out of thin air discovered the path to riches and control.  And they developed a hatred towards gold that was understandable.


Gold was the monetary discipline that stood in their way.  This set off a long period of Fed-sponsored propaganda against gold.  Gradually, through the years, and as generation after generation passed on, even the common man in America began to agree that gold was a worthless relic, a useless ornament to be despised.




                                                            [Limit reached]
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/KWN_DailyWeb.html (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/KWN_DailyWeb.html)   :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: State-Wrecked: The Corruption of Capitalism in America
Post by: g on April 01, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
An absolutely terrifying look at what the fiat buffoons have done to us. :-[


The New York Times

March 30, 2013
State-Wrecked: The Corruption of Capitalism in America
By DAVID A. STOCKMAN

GREENWICH, Conn.

The Dow Jones and Standard & Poor’s 500 indexes reached record highs on Thursday, having completely erased the losses since the stock market’s last peak, in 2007. But instead of cheering, we should be very afraid.

Over the last 13 years, the stock market has twice crashed and touched off a recession: American households lost $5 trillion in the 2000 dot-com bust and more than $7 trillion in the 2007 housing crash. Sooner or later — within a few years, I predict — this latest Wall Street bubble, inflated by an egregious flood of phony money from the Federal Reserve rather than real economic gains, will explode, too.

Since the S.&P. 500 first reached its current level, in March 2000, the mad money printers at the Federal Reserve have expanded their balance sheet sixfold (to $3.2 trillion from $500 billion). Yet during that stretch, economic output has grown by an average of 1.7 percent a year (the slowest since the Civil War); real business investment has crawled forward at only 0.8 percent per year; and the payroll job count has crept up at a negligible 0.1 percent annually. Real median family income growth has dropped 8 percent, and the number of full-time middle class jobs, 6 percent. The real net worth of the “bottom” 90 percent has dropped by one-fourth. The number of food stamp and disability aid recipients has more than doubled, to 59 million, about one in five Americans.

So the Main Street economy is failing while Washington is piling a soaring debt burden on our descendants, unable to rein in either the warfare state or the welfare state or raise the taxes needed to pay the nation’s bills. By default, the Fed has resorted to a radical, uncharted spree of money printing. But the flood of liquidity, instead of spurring banks to lend and corporations to spend, has stayed trapped in the canyons of Wall Street, where it is inflating yet another unsustainable bubble.

When it bursts, there will be no new round of bailouts like the ones the banks got in 2008. Instead, America will descend into an era of zero-sum austerity and virulent political conflict, extinguishing even today’s feeble remnants of economic growth.

THIS dyspeptic prospect results from the fact that we are now state-wrecked. With only brief interruptions, we’ve had eight decades of increasingly frenetic fiscal and monetary policy activism intended to counter the cyclical bumps and grinds of the free market and its purported tendency to underproduce jobs and economic output. The toll has been heavy.

As the federal government and its central-bank sidekick, the Fed, have groped for one goal after another — smoothing out the business cycle, minimizing inflation and unemployment at the same time, rolling out a giant social insurance blanket, promoting homeownership, subsidizing medical care, propping up old industries (agriculture, automobiles) and fostering new ones (“clean” energy, biotechnology) and, above all, bailing out Wall Street — they have now succumbed to overload, overreach and outside capture by powerful interests. The modern Keynesian state is broke, paralyzed and mired in empty ritual incantations about stimulating “demand,” even as it fosters a mutant crony capitalism that periodically lavishes the top 1 percent with speculative windfalls.

The culprits are bipartisan, though you’d never guess that from the blather that passes for political discourse these days. The state-wreck originated in 1933, when Franklin D. Roosevelt opted for fiat money (currency not fundamentally backed by gold), economic nationalism and capitalist cartels in agriculture and industry. [/color]

www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=all)    State-Wrecked: The Corruption of Capitalism in Americawww.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&pagewanted=print  :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:


Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Eddie on April 01, 2013, 04:39:03 AM
Or perhaps it began in 1913 with the creation of the Fed. That's where I'd mark the beginning.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 01, 2013, 05:01:06 AM
Or perhaps it began in 1913 with the creation of the Fed. That's where I'd mark the beginning.

A sad day indeed Doc for the future fate of the dollar. May I note that they had much less power on that sad day than now, and that the dollar was still as good as Gold on that fateful day. It took them a few decades to remove Gold from it's role of providing integrity, stability, and honesty to the dollar. The day that the dollar was corrupted and debauched by the bankster whores that rule us was more important in my view for that reason. Your assertion that it was a day of mourning for the future of the dollar is true in my view as well, just not the final blow.

                                                           [Limit reached]
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: If you had all the gold what size would your bar be?
Post by: monsta666 on April 01, 2013, 07:49:27 AM
How much gold is there in the world? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21969100)

By Ed Prior
BBC News

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66663000/jpg/_66663088_big_austria_goldafp624.jpg)

Imagine if you were a super-villain who had taken control of all the world's gold, and had decided to melt it down to make a cube. How long would the sides be? Hundreds of metres, thousands even?

Actually, it's unlikely to be anything like that size.

Warren Buffett, one of the world's richest investors, says the total amount of gold in the world - the gold above ground, that is - could fit into a cube with sides of just 20m (67ft).

But is that all there is? And if so, how do we know?

A figure that is widely used by investors comes from Thomson Reuters GFMS, which produces an annual gold survey.

Their latest figure for all the gold in the world is 171,300 tonnes - which is almost exactly the same as the amount in our super-villain's imaginary cube.

A cube made of 171,300 tonnes would be about 20.7m (68ft) on each side. Or to put it another way, it would reach to 9.8m above ground level if exactly covering Wimbledon Centre Court.

But not everyone agrees with the GFMS figures.

Estimates range from 155,244 tonnes, marginally less than the GFMS figure, to about 16 times that amount - 2.5 million tonnes.

That bigger figure would make a cube of sides 50m (166ft) long, or a column of gold towering 143m above Wimbledon centre court.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66662000/jpg/_66662411_wimbledon_gold_624.jpg)

So why are the figures so different?

Part of the reason is that gold has been mined for a very long time - more than 6,000 years, according to gold historian Timothy Green.
"All the gold that
has been mined
throughout history
is still in existence"


James Turk
Gold Money

The first gold coins were minted in about 550 BC under King Croesus of Lydia - a province in modern-day Turkey - and quickly became accepted payment for merchants and mercenary soldiers around the Mediterranean.

Up until 1492, the year Columbus sailed to America, GFMS estimates that 12,780 tonnes had been extracted.

But one investor who looked at the research done in this area, James Turk, the founder of Gold Money, discovered what he regarded as a series of over-estimates. (http://www.goldmoney.com/download-pdf-file.php?pdf=/documents/theabovegroundgoldstock.pdf)

He believes that the primitive mining techniques used up to the Middle Ages mean that this figure is much too high, and that a more realistic total is just 297 tonnes.

Tonnes of gold

GFMS
James Turk
Pre-1492
12,780
297
Post-1492
158,520
154,947
Total
171,300
155,244

His figure for the overall amount of gold in the world is 155,244 tonnes - 16,056 tonnes, or 10% less, than the assessment by Thompson Reuters GFMS. A relatively small disparity, perhaps, but one that at today's prices comes to more than $950bn.

His conclusions are accepted by some investors but such is the feeling between rival analysts that one competitor described Turk's figures as an alternative to the GFMS's "in the same way that Jedi is an alternative to Christianity".

But there are others who think both sets of figures are too low.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66663000/jpg/_66663089_tuts_tomb_464afp.jpg)

"In Tutankhamen's tomb alone they found that his coffin was made from 1.5 tonnes of gold, so imagine the gold that was found in the other tombs that were ransacked before records were taken of them," says Jan Skoyles of gold investment firm The Real Asset Company.

While James Turk makes only minor adjustments to the GFMS figure for the amount of gold mined after 1492, Skoyles points out that even today China is "not particularly open" about how much gold it is mining.

And in some countries, such as Colombia, "there's a lot of illegal mining going on", she says.

She doesn't have an exact figure to offer, but one organisation that has tried to do some maths (http://www.goldstandardinstitute.org/Article.aspx?UniqueName=PB20111021) is the Gold Standard Institute.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66663000/jpg/_66663090_goldmine_bunia_afp464.jpg)
There is much gold still in the ground, like here in Democratic Republic of Congo

Its experts believe that if we emptied our bank vaults and jewellery boxes, we'd find no less than 2.5 million tonnes of gold - though they admit that the evidence is somewhat sparse and the figure is a bit speculative.

So who's right?

Well, we don't know.

In the end, all these numbers are made up of estimates added to estimates added to yet more estimates. Maybe they're all way off.

The good news is that we are not likely to run out of gold any time soon. The US Geological Survey estimates there are 52,000 (http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/gold/) tonnes of minable gold still in the ground and more is likely to be discovered.

The bad news is that the way we use gold is starting to change.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66663000/jpg/_66663091_queengold_afp2012_624.jpg)

Up to now it has never gone away. It has always been recycled.

"All the gold that has been mined throughout history is still in existence in the above-ground stock. That means that if you have a gold watch, some of the gold in that watch could have been mined by the Romans 2,000 years ago," says James Turk.

The way gold is being used in the technology industry, however, is different.

The British Geological Survey states that about 12% of current world gold production finds its way to this sector, where it is often used in such small quantities, in each individual product, that it may no longer be economical to recycle it.

In short, gold may be being "consumed" for the first time.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on April 01, 2013, 09:12:45 AM
Gold is for hoarders and power fiends. If we have to have money, make it fiat, non-interest bearing, or many currencies, non-interest bearing. Make the money changers civil servants, basically.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 01, 2013, 10:43:37 AM
Gold is for hoarders and power fiends. If we have to have money, make it fiat, non-interest bearing, or many currencies, non-interest bearing. Make the money changers civil servants, basically.

You have it backwards WHD. Fiat is for hoarders that is why it has interest and usury attached.  Gold pays no interest and never has, because it is real money it needs no bankster's lure like interest to make it viable. Haven't you ever wondered why Gold pays no interest? It is because it is the real Mc Coy.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 01, 2013, 02:22:58 PM
Gold is for hoarders and power fiends. If we have to have money, make it fiat, non-interest bearing, or many currencies, non-interest bearing. Make the money changers civil servants, basically.

You have it backwards WHD. Fiat is for hoarders that is why it has interest and usury attached.  Gold pays no interest and never has, because it is real money it needs no bankster's lure like interest to make it viable. Haven't you ever wondered why Gold pays no interest? It is because it is the real Mc Coy.

I agree, gold has its place in my hedging strategy.  We keep half our PM's in the US and half in the UK.  I also keep resources as pounds Stirling in the Channel Islands. 

Gold retains it's value, so makes a good hedge.  However, it requires a buy who has what you want at that time.  Absent of a fiat currency to act as an intermediate it's hard to convert gold to the contents of your next meal.  If you don't have the resources to get though the crisis (food, friends and useful skills) then your gold will likely end up in a museum in a few thousand years, with a sign below it saying, "discovered in the dig of an abandoned house, circa the oil crash."

We do keep a few hundred silver rounds as a much more effective store of small, easier-to-trade value.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 01, 2013, 04:36:43 PM
Quote
We do keep a few hundred silver rounds as a much more effective store of small, easier-to-trade value.

Yes, silver is just great for small every day transactions, Gold for the larger and wealth storage. Most Gold bugs, such as myself, own both, "Poor Man's Gold" is a common name given silver.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Mr Kunstler Writing Lots About Gold This Morning
Post by: g on April 02, 2013, 03:58:10 AM
James Howard Kunstler wrote a great article today with important happenings in the gold world that I wish to place on my Gold & Silver thread due to it's relevance. Will only post an excerpt as Surly usually posts the entire articles on his thread. It gave me great pleasure to see Mr. Kunstler quoting Jim Willie, a gentleman whose work I recently introduced on the Diner.


The effort by Russia, China, and others to isolate and neutralize the US dollar as the world's so-called reserve currency by systematically converting holdings of US Treasury bills into gold wherever possible, and to thereby diminish the baleful influence of the Imperial US behemoth. They are assisted in this endeavor by the US itself in its bungling efforts to manipulate and suppress gold prices, as well as our prevarications as to exactly how much gold remains in the various places it is supposed to be stashed - Fort Knox, West Point, and the sub-basement labyrinth of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York - generating ever-greater uncertainty about the extant world gold supply, and hence its value relative to things like currencies. Nobody here can even ask the right questions.
     While The New York Times focuses on the momentous issue of real estate sales in the Hamptons, Russia and China will build gold-backed currencies aimed at monopolizing the trade in mineral and energy resources, leaving America and much of Europe to freeze in the dark and sit on gasoline lines at the empty filling stations. For a while that will work to the East's advantage - until it becomes clear that the entropic contraction of industrial economies is for everyone as we veer into a literal world made by hand. That's right, sooner or later Russia and China will get theirs, too. But in the meantime they have the ability to make the story a lot more interesting.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/clusterfucknation/~3/9gceKq_WTCU/are-you-going-to-entropy-faire.html (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/clusterfucknation/~3/9gceKq_WTCU/are-you-going-to-entropy-faire.html)  :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Illuminati Message Makers in Hyperdrive
Post by: WHD on April 02, 2013, 06:39:22 AM
GO,

Stockman surprises. He got it mostly right, telling the truth more or less and the ILLUMINATI message makers are in hyper-drive, filling the airwaves with denunciation and otherwise happy joy joy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-02/stockman-sundown-belied-by-stocks-showing-morning-for-investors.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-02/stockman-sundown-belied-by-stocks-showing-morning-for-investors.html)

[sinppet]
David Stockman’s warning that the Federal Reserve’s quantitative easing is steering the world’s largest economy toward a crash is at odds with nine quarters of job growth, record stock prices and unprecedented corporate earnings, former fiscal and monetary policy makers said.
   
Stockman, who served as budget director for President Ronald Reagan, wrote in a March 31 opinion piece in the New York Times that Fed policies in the aftermath of the financial crisis flooded equity markets with cash while weakening the “Main Street economy” and creating an “unsustainable bubble.”

That doesn’t square with soaring U.S. stock prices and company profits that have emboldened investors. Bond buying that pushed the Fed’s balance sheet to a record $3.21 trillion and other unprecedented actions by Chairman Ben S. Bernanke “saved the world,” David Blanchflower, a former Bank of England policy maker, said in response to Stockman’s assertions.

“The reason that stocks have erased all their losses is entirely because of QE,” said Blanchflower, who teaches at Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, and served on the BOE’s Monetary Policy Committee from 2006 to 2009. “To argue that that’s independent of the actions of the Fed shows no understanding of what the Fed is doing and what they did.”

The Standard & Poor’s 500 Index has soared 131 percent since March 2009, surpassing its previous record last month, as profits surged and the Fed pumped more than $2.3 trillion into the economy through monetary easing. The rally represents the biggest bull market since the eight-year advance that added 302 percent through 1998, data compiled by Bloomberg show.
Stocks, Profits

“You look at the market and you certainly don’t get the message that the sky is falling,” said Jared Bernstein, former chief economist to Vice President Joe Biden and a senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities in Washington. “Recent gains in the stock market are explained by very high corporate profits and very low interest rates.”
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on April 02, 2013, 06:46:34 AM
Gold is for hoarders and power fiends. If we have to have money, make it fiat, non-interest bearing, or many currencies, non-interest bearing. Make the money changers civil servants, basically.

You have it backwards WHD. Fiat is for hoarders that is why it has interest and usury attached.  Gold pays no interest and never has, because it is real money it needs no bankster's lure like interest to make it viable. Haven't you ever wondered why Gold pays no interest? It is because it is the real Mc Coy.

GO,

There's no point hoarding a non-interest paper fiat currency, because if there is a shortage, you just print more. If there's a surplus, you pull it out. Sound monetary policy. If we switch to gold now the BRICS countries are going to eat us for breakfast.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 02, 2013, 06:51:04 AM
Quote
GO,

Stockman surprises. He got it mostly right, telling the truth more or less and the ILLUMINATI message makers are in hyper-drive, filling the airwaves with denunciation and otherwise happy joy joy.

Yes WHD, it is always nice to see a piggy admit some sins, and come clean, And do some piggy squealing on his fellow swine.

THANKS A MILLION, for the video you sent my way. Blew my head off, Space ships falling into black holes, The mushroom man, he was just beautiful, Relationship problems between galaxies, man, you got to warn before you lift me off into space like that again.

That lady that figured out we were the prey all our existence, rather than the hunters, and the nightmares of the babies today still reflecting it is still with me. Might sound silly, but I get a strange feeling we are still prey :-\

Thanks again you opened up a whole new topic for me to pursue, there sure were a very large number of grey cells in that chat.  :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on April 02, 2013, 06:57:06 AM
Quote
GO,

Stockman surprises. He got it mostly right, telling the truth more or less and the ILLUMINATI message makers are in hyper-drive, filling the airwaves with denunciation and otherwise happy joy joy.

Yes WHD, it is always nice to see a piggy admit some sins, and come clean, And do some piggy squealing on his fellow swine.

THANKS A MILLION, for the video you sent my way. Blew my head off, Space ships falling into black holes, The mushroom man, he was just beautiful, Relationship problems between galaxies, man, you got to warn before you lift me off into space like that again.

That lady that figured out we were the prey all our existence, rather than the hunters, and the nightmares of the babies today still reflecting it is still with me. Might sound silly, but I get a strange feeling we are still prey :-\

Thanks again you opened up a whole new topic for me to pursue, there sure were a very large number of grey cells in that chat.  :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:

Glad you dug it. I assume you are talking about the Trialogue. I listened to them all when I was whoring for big bank. The only thing that made it possible. All that intellectual freedom though, didn't conspire to keep me a whore, for sure. LOL 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: If you had all the gold what size would your bar be?
Post by: bob on April 02, 2013, 07:49:16 PM

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66663000/jpg/_66663091_queengold_afp2012_624.jpg)


I like what beppe grillo had to say on this.... They mine the gold out of the ground and take it somewhere else and put it in the ground under the bank, so why not just build the bank on top of the fucking mine site and save all the trouble?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: The Assault On Gold — Paul Craig Roberts
Post by: g on April 06, 2013, 03:57:09 AM
The Assault On Gold — Paul Craig Roberts

For Americans, financial and economic Armageddon might be close at hand. The evidence for this conclusion is the concerted effort by the Federal Reserve and its dependent financial institutions to scare people away from gold and silver by driving down their prices.

When gold prices hit $1,917.50 an ounce on August 23, 2011, a gain of more than $500 an ounce in less than 8 months, capping a rise over a decade from $272 at the end of December 2000, the Federal Reserve panicked. With the US dollar losing value so rapidly compared to the world standard for money, the Federal Reserve’s policy of printing $1 trillion annually in order to support the impaired balance sheets of banks and to finance the federal deficit was placed in danger. Who could believe the dollar’s exchange rate in relation to other currencies when the dollar was collapsing in value in relation to gold and silver.

The Federal Reserve realized that its massive purchase of bonds in order to keep their
prices high (and thus interest rates low) was threatened by the dollar’s rapid loss of value in terms of gold and silver. The Federal Reserve was concerned that large holders of US dollars, such as the central banks of China and Japan and the OPEC sovereign investment funds, might join the flight of individual investors away from the US dollar, thus ending in the fall of the dollar’s foreign exchange value and thus decline in US bond and stock prices.

Intelligent people could see that the US government could not afford the long and numerous wars that the neoconservatives were engineering or the loss of tax base and consumer income from offshoring millions of US middle class jobs for the sake of executive bonuses and shareholder capital gains. They could see what was in the cards, and began exiting the dollar for gold and silver.

Central banks are slower to act. Saudi Arabia and the oil emirates are dependent on US protection and do not want to anger their protector. Japan is a puppet state that is careful in its relationship with its master. China wanted to hold on to the American consumer market for as long as that market existed. It was individuals who began the exit from the US dollar.

When gold topped $1,900, Washington put out the story that gold was a bubble. The presstitute media fell in line with Washington’s propaganda. “Gold looking a bit bubbly” declared CNN Money on August 23, 2011.

The Federal Reserve used its dependent “banks too big to fail” to short the precious metals markets. By selling naked shorts in the paper bullion market against the rising demand for physical possession, the Federal Reserve was able to drive the price of gold down to $1,750 and keep it more or less capped there until recently, when a concerted effort on April 2-3, 2013, drove gold down to $1,557 and silver, which had approached $50 per ounce in 2011, down to $27.

The Federal Reserve began its April Fool’s assault on gold by sending the word to brokerage houses, which quickly went out to clients, that hedge funds and other large investors were going to unload their gold positions and that clients should get out of the precious metal market prior to these sales. As this inside information was the government’s own strategy, individuals cannot be prosecuted for acting on it. By this operation, the Federal Reserve, a totally corrupt entity, was able to combine individual flight with institutional flight. Bullion prices took a big hit, and bullishness departed from the gold and silver markets. The flow of dollars into bullion, which threatened to become a torrent, was stopped.

For now it seems that the Fed has succeeded in creating wariness among Americans about the virtues of gold and silver, and thus the Federal Reserve has extended the time that it can print money to keep the house of cards standing. This time could be short or it could last a couple of years.

However, for the Russians and Chinese, whose central banks have more dollars than they any longer want, and for the 1.3 billion Indians in India, the low dollar price for gold that the Federal Reserve has engineered is an opportunity. They see the opportunity that the Federal Reserve has given them to purchase gold at $350-$400 an ounce less than two years ago as a gift.

The Federal Reserve’s attack on bullion is an act of desperation that, when widely recognized, will doom its policy.

As I have explained previously, the orchestrated move against gold and silver is to protect the exchange value of the US dollar. If bullion were not a threat, the government would not be attacking it.

The Federal Reserve is creating $1 trillion new dollars per year, but the world is moving away from the use of the dollar for international payments and, thus, as reserve currency. The result is an increase in supply and a decrease in demand. This means a falling exchange value of the dollar, domestic inflation from rising import prices, and a rising interest rate and collapsing bond, stock and real estate markets.

The Federal Reserve’s orchestration against bullion cannot ultimately succeed. It is designed to gain time for the Federal Reserve to be able to continue financing the federal budget deficit by printing money and also to keep interest rates low and debt prices high in order to support the banks’ balance sheets.

When the Federal Reserve can no longer print due to dollar decline which printing would make worse, US bank deposits and pensions could be grabbed in order to finance the federal budget deficit for couple of more years. Anything to stave off the final catastrophe.

The manipulation of the bullion market is illegal, but as government is doing it the law will not be enforced. 

By its obvious and concerted attack on gold and silver, the US government could not give any clearer warning that trouble is approaching. The values of the dollar and of financial assets denominated in dollars are in doubt.

Those who believe in government and those who believe in deregulation will be proved equally wrong. The United States of America is past its zenith. As I predicted early in the 21st century, in 20 years the US will be a third world country. We are halfway there.


http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/04/the-assault-on-gold-paul-craig-roberts/ (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/04/the-assault-on-gold-paul-craig-roberts/)  :icon_study: :icon_study:


URL to article: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/04/the-assault-on-gold-paul-craig-roberts/ (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/04/the-assault-on-gold-paul-craig-roberts/)

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: The Assault On Gold — Paul Craig Roberts
Post by: RE on April 06, 2013, 04:18:23 AM
Gold as an Asset Class is extremely subject to psychology of perceived value.  It does not have that much real utility.  "Manipulation" is all about playing with perceived Value.  In any event, as with all Asset Classes that are leveraged (and most Gold is even if yours is not) it is subject to Margin Calls. If large Gold Holders are forced by Margin Calls to Unload in a Hurry, it is no different than holders of Reno Real Estate forced to Unload. The price drops in a hurry.

I won't buy Gold at any Price.  I will Pan it Up and Sell it though if the price is high enough to justify the time spent doing so.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Americans Pile into Silver, Gold Coins
Post by: g on April 06, 2013, 06:16:13 AM

The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
Americans pile into silver, gold coins

Sales of silver and gold coins have surged this year. With silver and gold prices near two-year lows, is it time to buy?


 By Margaret Price, / Correspondent / April 6, 2013 at 8:00 am EDT
New York

As the banking crisis struck in 2007-08, investor Will Mitchell sprang into action: After boning up on precious metals, he started buying fairly sizable amounts of silver bullion bars. Eventually, he switched to silver and gold bullion coins, which he considers easier to trade than bars.

The happy result: Even though precious metals prices have been falling lately, "my holdings of them are up [in value] about 100 percent since early 2008," says Mr. Mitchell, the owner of Startupbros.com in Tampa, Fla., a resource for entrepreneurs seeking to create an online business. "You can't ask for more than that."

Interest in these glittery investments – which soared five years ago – has been especially hot this year. In January, the US Mint sold 7.5 million American Eagle silver bullion coins to dealers – a monthly high, and not far from the 9.9 million silver American Eagles it sold in all of 2007. Demand was so strong that the Mint temporarily ran out of supplies and had to suspend sales for roughly 10 days. In addition, sales of American Eagle gold bullion coins hit highs not seen since June 2010.

Although sales of the one-ounce coins fell to more normal levels in February and March, the US Mint is still on track to sell a record number of silver American Eagles in 2013. Sales of gold American Eagles are also back to the high levels of 2011.

"We've been seeing a massive increase in interest in precious metals," says Terry Hanlon, president of Dillon Gage Metals, in Dallas, whose firm is one of the authorized purchasers of the federal government's bullion. (Except for a few special coins designed for collectors, the US Mint only sells to dealers, not individuals.)

Gold and silver, he says, are "an offset to other investments and are an insurance policy against falling currency values."

Investors worried about inflation can diversify into precious metals several ways. They can buy stocks of companies that mine gold, silver, or platinum. They can purchase precious metals mutual funds or exchange-traded funds. But to some investors, problems that surfaced during the recent recession, such as the collapse of the mortgage-backed securities market, prompted them to seek safety in tangible, versus "paper," assets. Experts say that's been one factor boosting interest in owning physical gold and silver bullion.

Gold and silver bullion come in two main forms: bars and minted coins. "It's better to have the coins," says Edmund Moy, former director of the Mint and now chief strategist at Morgan Gold, a precious metals dealer in Irvine, Calif., specializing in services for Individual Retirement Accounts. For one thing, "the US Mint guarantees the purity of the coins' content," he points out. Because gold and silver bars "are made by outside companies, the purity of their metal content possibly could be subject to fraud."

In 2011, Utah passed a law allowing gold and silver bullion coins issued by the US Mint to be used as legal tender. People place their gold and silver bullion coins in the Utah Gold & Silver Depository and receive a card that acts similar to a debit card which they can use to make purchases of up to 80 percent of the coins' current value. A dozen other states have been considering similar legislation.

http://rss.csmonitor.com/~r/feeds/csm/~3/mKjauNhhipo/Americans-pile-into-silver-gold-coins (http://rss.csmonitor.com/~r/feeds/csm/~3/mKjauNhhipo/Americans-pile-into-silver-gold-coins)    :icon_study: :icon_study:

                                           [Limit reached]
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: jdwheeler42 on April 06, 2013, 09:02:54 AM
RE, you got the general idea and the particulars right, but I think you are missing half the mechanism.

Gold is not an investment.  It is either speculation or insurance.  It definitely is subject to perceived value.  However, while people are very familiar with "buying on margin" from the past few asset bubbles, people don't understand the flip side: the "naked short".   This is where you sell an asset you don't have.  Needless to say, this is very risky, as there is no limit to how much you might end up paying.  You need really, really, really good credit to do this -- or be able to print your own money.  That is how you can manipulate gold to the down side.

But if you do own gold, you might not want to sell it.  You can still earn money from it by leasing it.  You give someone your gold with a promise to get it back and a certain payment while they hold it.  You technically still own the gold even though you don't physically possess it.

In both cases, the problem similar to a "margin call" is "taking delivery".  If people start demanding the physical gold, like the Bundesbank recently did, then you have a problem, because you don't actually have it on hand.  This means you have to buy it at whatever price you can get it.  This makes for very rapid price rises.

All that said, as I said before, gold is not an investment, it is insurance or speculation.  In either case I wouldn't put money into gold that you would need in any less than a generation.  And before that, I would try to find things that have a better potential for a return, like, say, a Foxstead  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 07, 2013, 10:45:19 AM
Don't forget the difference between specie value and the material base value.

Got money AND debt?  Buy gold eagles with a face value of $ 50.00 and you protect around  $ 1,500 per coin. Then file Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection.  You're allowed up to $ 20k (I think it's still the same) of cash or assets, only above that threshold can the Trustee touch it.

So 100 oz of gold in american eagles (maples or Panda's won't work) is only $ 5,000 "cash on hand" reported to the trustee in the BK filing, even though six month after the BK is accepted by the court (earlier and it's exposed to the Trustee) and that $ 5,000 face vale can be sold for $ 150,000. 

All legal and above board. You're declaring the face value, which is all that's required.  Try claiming that the FRN's in your wallet are only worth the linen they are printed on and you'll see why it's set up this way - and why the SCOTUS refuses to touch specie cases (since Thompson v. Butler).

This is not theoretical, I've helped people do this and their bankruptcy attorney had no issue with it. We put a family though chapter seven bankruptcy protection (all unsecured debt discharged) while that family had an income of over a quarter of a million a year. 



off-topic - We've paid the attorney fees and filing fees for a couple of people who could not afford to get out of debt in the last few years. I hate the banks enough that I'll advocate the charity (of which I'm a trustee) pay the $ 1,800 fees to cost the banksters $ 100,000 or more ins written off debt.  The trust only serves people within a certain distance of the Lodge which administers it, or there would have been a lot more.  I love using the system against itself.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold Price Reaches an All Time High in Yen
Post by: g on April 08, 2013, 05:26:36 AM
Another major fiat currency bows to it's lord and master.


                                                  [Limit reached]               click to enlarge

                                               
                                                 [Limit reached]   click high res enlarge

                                                   
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold Price Reaches an All Time High in Yen
Post by: Surly1 on April 08, 2013, 08:18:08 AM
        [Limit reached]   click high res enlarge                                       

Never saw one of these in my life. Thanks, GO.

Amazing.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Currency Wars Now Entering Their End Game
Post by: g on April 12, 2013, 04:16:43 AM

Currency Wars Now Entering Their End Game
By FS Staff
Created 11 Apr 2013

Grant Williams, author of the widely read newsletter Things That Make You Go Hmmm [1], discusses with Financial Sense Newshour [2]the next logical step in the ongoing currency wars, the difficulties facing Japan with import prices, and, lastly, a few thoughts on gold repatriation by central banks. Here, we present a partial transcript of the interview.

The Bank Credit Analyst just reported that the Bank of Japan will expand its balance sheet by 40% to 220 trillion by the end of 2013 and the Fed will also be expanding its balance sheet by 35% this year. What are your thoughts on this?

“Japan has fired the bazooka, they’ve decided to go all in put all their chips on the table after two decades of very poor economic performance…we’ve entered the realms of complete and utter monetary debauchery in Japan now, they are absolutely desperate to weaken their currency and they figure they can do this, generate inflation, and then unwind it painlessly if they do get there. Kyle Bass has spoken about this phenomenon at lengthover a number of years now and we really do seem to be moving towards this end-game where we’re in a currency war—there’s no two ways about it—and Japan has decided to arbitrarily try and weaken their currency. Now, they’re getting away with it; the Yen’s weakened against the dollar by some 27% in the last few months but, at some point, we’re going to start to see some retaliation. The Koreans particularly need to do that. Japan and Korea compete directly in two very key industries; both of which are automobiles and consumer electronics. If you look at the divergence of the Nikkei and the Kospi in Korea you’ll see that as Japan has weakened its currency and [the Nikkei] strengthened, Korea has gone exactly the other way and it’s too big a deal for this to happen in a vacuum. So, right now, Japan is getting away with this but I suspect in fairly short order once the initial impetus of this trade runs out we’re going to see some salvos fired back by the Koreans and the Chinese—things could get ugly quite quickly I think.”

Japan imports a lot of things—everything from energy to raw materials to food—so how can you continue to import all these items when your currency is being rapidly depreciated?

“Well, you can’t. That’s the problem. And, also, don’t forget that this is a country that got the bulk of its power from nuclear energy and they shut down their reactors after Fukushima. So, the oil import bill last year was $100 billion/day and obviously that’s gone up 30% in Yen [/b]terms. But, again, we had one of the cabinet members come out yesterday and say that the government was going to mitigate the effects of inflation for small to medium sized businesses—well, they can’t do it. I’m pretty sure we’re going to see these nuclear reactors turned on as fast as they possibly can because they need to bring some of these costs down for a country that has no energy apart from nuclear.”

Recently, you gave a presentation in Hong Kong [3] where you discuss the process of central banks leasing out their gold while other countries demand theirs back. What do you see taking place?

“Chavez demanding his gold back was the beginning of the end of this little scheme. I don’t know how long it takes to play out but if we assume they [central banks] all lease their gold out to some extent, they all know that the gold is not necessarily all there so it really becomes a game of chicken and with Chavez kind of blinking first...we see a few fringe countries like Azerbaijan, Ecuador, and some of these really small gold holders that started quietly repatriating their own gold. But, as you say, when the Bundesbank announced that they were going to do it, that’s 300 odd tons that they want to bring back from the U.S. That’s a meaningful amount of gold. And once you start getting those big holders pulling their gold back, it really does become, in the case of central bankers, why on earth would you take the risk that you’re the guy who asks for his gold back and it’s not there? And it becomes a huge huge problem..."

"On the face of it, the status quo looks okay and in an environment where there are so many reasons for the gold price to go higher—you know, with this infinite QE on the part of Japan and further QE on the part of the UK and the US, and we’ve got currency camps in Switzerland, we’ve seen the events in Cyprus with deposits actually confiscated—every single one of these is unequivocally positive for the gold price and yet the gold price is kind of stagnating and languishing, but at some point reality is going to assert itself. I don’t know what the event is going to be. We’ve seen plenty of potential catalysts kind of come and go, but at some point that is going to change. As long as this continues, and when it does or if we get a real rush to perfect assets and repatriating gold, the gold price is going to go through the roof.”

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/59d_r1lzFis/grant-williams-currency-wars-end-game (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/59d_r1lzFis/grant-williams-currency-wars-end-game)  :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Gold & Silver Being Pummeled This Morning
Post by: g on April 12, 2013, 05:26:44 AM
Gold down 35, Silver down .90 as I write. Unusual moves for such a short period. Something going on.  :dontknow:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Gold & Silver Being Pummeled This Morning
Post by: Petty Tyrant on April 12, 2013, 05:36:32 AM
Gold down 35, Silver down .90 as I write. Unusual moves for such a short period. Something going on.  :dontknow:

Instant karma for calling me BUFFOON.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Gold & Silver Being Pummeled This Morning
Post by: WHD on April 12, 2013, 06:22:39 AM
Gold down 35, Silver down .90 as I write. Unusual moves for such a short period. Something going on.  :dontknow:

So by any reasonable measure, precious metals should be climbing, fast. What is the mechanism that allows them to depress the price, seemingly artificially?  :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Gold & Silver Being Pummeled This Morning
Post by: g on April 12, 2013, 06:25:14 AM
Gold down 35, Silver down .90 as I write. Unusual moves for such a short period. Something going on.  :dontknow:

So by any reasonable measure, precious metals should be climbing, fast. What is the mechanism that allows them to depress the price, seemingly artificially?  :icon_scratch:

Futures markets, bankster controlled, and the MSM rumor mill.  Cyprus has to dump all it's gold is the latest story.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News Gold & Silver Being Pummeled This Morning
Post by: WHD on April 12, 2013, 06:29:58 AM
Gold down 35, Silver down .90 as I write. Unusual moves for such a short period. Something going on.  :dontknow:

So by any reasonable measure, precious metals should be climbing, fast. What is the mechanism that allows them to depress the price, seemingly artificially?  :icon_scratch:

Futures markets, bankster controlled, and the MSM rumor mill.  Cyprus has to dump all it's gold is the latest story.

Cyprus has to dump all it's gold? Is that a euphemism for thievery of the highest order?

So how does toying with the futures markets depress gold? Big money players all dive into speculative commodity futures that make the future appear bully?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Eddie on April 12, 2013, 06:58:26 AM
The mechanism is basically this:

1.  Large investment banks, acting with the consent of government at the highest levels, start selling into the paper market at ridiculously low prices....this immediately triggers stop loss mechanisms previously set by large traders, which causes a cascading market drop.

2. The markets are leveraged maybe 100 to 1. Most players never take delivery of physical metal they are supposedly buying, because they can cash out into fiat instantly..so it's a traders market.

3. Big banks, with basically bottomless pockets can drive the market down 1 or 2 percent (or more, sometimes) in a matter of minutes. Because they are causing this drop and know when it's going to stop (theoretically), they can then buy at the depressed level and ride the elevator back up.

4. Using huge leverage like that to move the markets is extremely risky, but the banks get away with it because they are backed up by their government and the Fed, and because their HFT algorithms, which are fraudulent, are winked at by the regulatory agencies, which are under corporate capture.

5. So they make money when the market goes up or down, riding the elevator, getting on and off ahead of the crowd.

Paul Mylchreest is the guy to read if you really want to get what's happening.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/paul-mylchreest-presents-various-visual-case-studies-gold-price-manipulation (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/paul-mylchreest-presents-various-visual-case-studies-gold-price-manipulation)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on April 12, 2013, 07:37:53 AM
All valid points Eddie but I would argue that the banks do not have complete control over prices of various commodities. While I can understand they can manipulate the price of say gold to go up or down as desired, the price manipulation can only stay within a certain range. The issue I see with most derivatives is every trade will have a winner or loser. If the banks consistently win through shorts, futures, forwards etc. then the counter-party - in this case the gold bug - will have to eat the losses. Eventually if the gold bugs kept losing money then the only players in the table would be the banks so the game would sort of stop. This zero-sum type game means that the system cannot be too volatile.

The reason I do raise this issue is because quite often people make the opposite argument and claim that banks have kept oil prices artificially high at $90 a barrel by trading manipulation and if they stopped trading maliciously in paper oil the price would drop to its historical norm of $20-40. I don't believe this is possible because the banks, while powerful, do not have the means to drive prices so far from their true fundamental market value. Saying that, I will agree with you that since the banks hold most of the chips, and have the backing of the government who will supply them with extra chips if need be, they hold the strong cards in this casino. Unless the gold bugs have nerves or steel or are excellent poker players and can anticipate the banks move well they are likely to get burned. 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Eddie on April 12, 2013, 07:53:53 AM
No, I don't think they have complete control. It has gotten away from them and will again. But they have killed silver longs for the past two years. I am among the dead.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Paulson Loses Over $300 Million On Friday's Gold Tumble
Post by: g on April 14, 2013, 05:52:20 AM
There were many casualties following Friday's 4% gold rout, but none were hurt more than one-time hedge fund idol John Paulson, who according to estimates, lost more than $300 million of his own money in one day.

Per Bloomberg: "Paulson has roughly $9.5 billion invested across his hedge funds, of which about 85 percent is invested in gold share classes. Gold dropped 4.1 percent today, shaving about $328 million from his net worth on this bet alone." This is merely the latest insult to what has otherwise been a 3 year-long injury for Paulson and his few remaining investors, whose very inappropriately named Advantage Plus is among the bottom 10 hedge funds for the third year in a row. Yet despite being a one-hit wonder thanks to one lucrative idea (long ABX CDS) generated by one of his former employees (Pelegrini), Paulson still has been lucky enough to somehow amass a $10 billion personal fortune which can have a $300 million downswing in one day, even if it is in an asset class which eventually will go only one way - up. Unless, of course, like so many other fly by night billionaires, Paulson too hasn't somehow managed to lever up all his equity into numerous other downstream ventures, and where a $300 million blow up leads to margin calls and other terminal liquidity outcomes.

More:

    “The recent decline in gold prices has not changed our long-term thesis,” John Reade, a partner and gold strategist at Paulson & Co., said in an e-mailed statement. “We started investing in gold at $900 in April 2009 and while it’s down from its peak to $1500, it’s up considerably from our cost.”

     

    Paulson investors can choose between dollar-and gold- denominated versions for most of the firm’s funds. In addition losses from bullion’s decline, investors in Paulson & Co. funds, including the firm’s founder, lost about $62 million today on their gold-stock investments, based on holdings as of Dec. 31, 2012. New York-based Paulson & Co.’s biggest wagers in miners include a 7.35 percent stake in AngloGold Ashanti Ltd.

     

    Paulson’s Reade said gold will continue to appreciate in the long run because governments are pumping money into the economy at a rate not seen before.

     

    “Federal governments have been printing money at an unprecedented rate,” said Reade. “We expect the strengthening of the economy and stock market to cause money supply to rise more than real growth and eventually lead to inflation. It is this expectation of paper currency debasement which makes gold an attractive long-term investment for us.”

That said, one doesn't have to be a bull in gold and gold equities to position appropriately for the eventual inflationary outcome, whose arrival is only a matter of time now that not one but two central banks are injecting $80+ billion in fresh liquidity into the global markets every month.

Recall that gold bull Hugh Hendry said in October that while he is long gold, he is short gold equities, a trade which has generated substantial alpha, courtesy of the 40% plunge in GDX and associated gold miners (a pair trade we have supported incidentally), and one which may well continue generating additional returns should Japanese financial institutions be forced to continue selling off the yellow metal on margin concerns, due to the record surge in JGB volatility as we explained yesterday.

As for gold as an inflation hedge, here Paulson is certainly correct. The only question is when will the price suppression scheme of gold as an alternative currency finally end. Since various official organizations (such as the Troika) are currently doing all they can to buy the sovereign gold of insolvent nations at firesale prices, it is likely that the period of artificially suppressed prices may continue.

Which, incidentally, for all those who lament the recent price drop in gold, is a good thing: for those who see gold as an alternative currency to fiat, all the recent sell off (as well as alleged or real downward price manipulation) does is provide a lower cost basis for accumulating hard monetary assets. Which is something to be welcomed and not mourned, especially if one plans on holding on to said gold (or silver) as a currency, instead of merely converting it back into fiat at a higher price point, and thus as an asset (something all those who bought BitCoin at $260 and sold at $50 appear to have completely forgotten).

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-13/john-paulson-loses-over-300-million-fridays-gold-tumble (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-13/john-paulson-loses-over-300-million-fridays-gold-tumble)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on April 14, 2013, 06:38:32 AM
Quote
none were hurt more than one-time hedge fund idol John Paulson, who according to estimates, lost more than $300 million of his own money in one day.

The particular wording of this statement I like most is, "his own money." Mr Treasury Secretary, caring so much about his country, having helped sell his country out to his scum bag Wall Street, Goldman Sachs cronies. That he is "worth" 9.2 billion now is 9.2 billion dollars worth of NUTS. That sounds to me like about 9.2 billion lives of grubs being parasitized by wasp larva, Karmic-ally speaking. Justice will prevail, lol.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 14, 2013, 06:56:17 AM
Quote
none were hurt more than one-time hedge fund idol John Paulson, who according to estimates, lost more than $300 million of his own money in one day.

The particular wording of this statement I like most is, "his own money." Mr Treasury Secretary, caring so much about his country, having helped sell his country out to his scum bag Wall Street, Goldman Sachs cronies. That he is "worth" 9.2 billion now is 9.2 billion dollars worth of NUTS. That sounds to me like about 9.2 billion lives of grubs being parasitized by wasp larva, Karmic-ally speaking. Justice will prevail, lol.

Hi WHD, I share your views entirely on the Mr Paulson you are referring to, but this gentleman is another with the same last name. Easy to confuse but this one has no government position; he is a world famous hedge fund manager such as Soro's, Jimmy Rogers, etc.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: WHD on April 14, 2013, 07:07:08 AM
Quote
none were hurt more than one-time hedge fund idol John Paulson, who according to estimates, lost more than $300 million of his own money in one day.

The particular wording of this statement I like most is, "his own money." Mr Treasury Secretary, caring so much about his country, having helped sell his country out to his scum bag Wall Street, Goldman Sachs cronies. That he is "worth" 9.2 billion now is 9.2 billion dollars worth of NUTS. That sounds to me like about 9.2 billion lives of grubs being parasitized by wasp larva, Karmic-ally speaking. Justice will prevail, lol.

Hi WHD, I share your views entirely on the Mr Paulson you are referring to, but this gentleman is another with the same last name. Easy to confuse but this one has no government position; he is a world famous hedge fund manager such as Soro's, Jimmy Rogers, etc.

My bad. I though Hank Paulson's first name was John. Whatever, peas in a pod.

So is it John or Hank who was talking about moving to Puerto Rico to shield his assets? Cuz I think I made the same mistake some time ago, just as certain, railing about John as Hank, when that story came out. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut about financial matters? Nothing worse than coming off as a loud-mouth ass who doesn't know what he's talking about.  :emthdown:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 14, 2013, 07:26:11 AM
It was the hedge fund Paulson escaping for tax reasons WHD.

Don't be silly, all comments are always welcome. You sure had the other Paulson pegged correctly.  We all make mistakes, EXCEPT of course the DM.  ;D
Title: Mike Baloney Shills for Gold
Post by: RE on April 14, 2013, 02:01:42 PM
Love how when the PMs market takes a hit, the Gold Shills appear IN FORCE on Zero Hedge to reiterate this is a "Buying Opportunity". Mike is "aggravated" by the pullbacks, but he'll stick it out to the bitter end! LOL.

RE

Mike Maloney: Today's Low Gold & Silver Prices Are Not Realistic (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-14/mike-maloney-todays-low-gold-silver-prices-are-not-realistic)
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/14/2013 13:27 -0400

Broken SystemCentral BanksDeficit SpendingPrecious MetalsPurchasing PowerReal estateReality


Submitted by Adam Taggart of Peak Prosperity,

During this very tumultuous week for precious metals prices, Chris sat down with Mike Maloney, founder and owner of GoldSilver.com, one of the world's largest bullion dealers.

Mike is a true scholar of monetary history. His reasons for getting into the bullion business have their roots in a very predictable cycle that has happened time and again over the centuries (more accurately millennia):

1.A new monetary system is introduced, based on sound money (most commonly, using gold and/or silver)
2.Currency (e.g., paper bills backed by sound money) is introduced to faciliate trade and commerce
3.Governments begin to tinker with ways to 'print' more currency than can be fully backed (e.g., coin clipping, partially-backed notes, FRNs)
4.A false prosperity ensues. Those closest to the new money creation benefit most and debase the currency further to forward their advantage.
5.Reality begins to catch up with this deficit spending and the purchasing power of the currency weakens dramatically.
6.The monetary system collapses under too many claims on a limited pool of sound money.
7.Eventually, a new monetary system backed by sound money rises from the ashes (see Step 1, above).
Mike believes that we are currently experiencing Step 6 and that we will witness the birth of a new monetary regime within the next ten years.

What makes this moment in history unique is that all past monetary regime collapses have happened regionally. This is the first time in human history in which all the world's major currencies are collapsing together. Which is why he is so passionate about owning gold and silver.

In his opinion, we will soon witness the greatest transfer of wealth ever seen, as countries worldwide realize they need to revert to monetary systems backed by sound money (i.e., the precious metals). Those acquiring gold and silver beforehand will not only preserve their wealth as existing fiat currencies are extinguished, but will see staggering increases in their purchasing power. Those interested in learning more of Mike's specific vision can watch Episode One of his new Hidden Secrets of Money video series. (Chris and I received advance screenings of the next few episodes, which are excellent in terms of explaining the processes and shortcomings of our current monetary system.)

On the Tightening Physical Market for Gold & Silver

What most people do not understand is that the price of gold and silver are not determined by how much gold and silver is being sold. It is how many gold and silver IOUs are being sold. And you can write as many IOUs, futures contracts and options, as you want. Those are unlimited. The supply, though, of physical gold and silver is quite limited, and so when people actually start asking for it and they want the physical, then there is a divergence of the paper price versus the physical price, and we are seeing that right now.

 

We are in a back-order situation with all of the suppliers. Spreads are going up. Silver eagles cost about fifty cents over spot more than they normally cost because all of the suppliers have had to raise their price to try and find the supply/demand equilibrium that the markets are for. The markets are there to try and find a supply/demand equilibrium, so then price is the arbitrator. Price rises; that draws more supply and reduces demand. Price falls; that reduces supply and increases demand.

 

So the price discovery mechanism of the markets is what is supposed to ensure that things are in equilibrium. We have this broken system where there are a few big players that manipulate the market, and it always shows up when shortages start developing in the physical market. You know that the price of gold and silver right now are too low to be realistic. And the good thing about that is that it cannot last.

On the Hidden Wealth Transfer Caused by Inflation Targeting

Everybody got in an uproar over [the Cyprus bank deposit haircuts], but nobody gets in an uproar over the central banks targeting 3% inflation. That compounds out to 34% of your wealth that they are confiscating every decade. People got mad because it happened all at once and they could see it. One day their bank account said one thing; the next day it said another thing. With this insidious confiscation known as inflation, this is the inflation tax – you do not see it because the number on your bank account might say that you could make a deposit and if there are no fees or anything on that deposit, $100,000 deposit a decade ago still stays $100,000. Except gasoline went from $1.25 to near $5.  Measured in gasoline, you lost 75% of that $100,000, but it still says $100,000.

 

So the central banks targeting this 3% inflation rate is a wealth transfer from the public to the financial sector.

On the Recent Price Weakness in the Precious Metals

You do not want to stay in just one investment class your whole lifetime. But it is a very powerful tool to be able to measure these classes against each other and then jump from an over-valued asset class to an under-valued asset class at the appropriate time for the road to true wealth. And it only requires a few big decisions during your lifetime.

 

Now, when I discovered wealth cycles, I was looking at the Dow Gold ratio and thinking this thing has a cycle. I made another check of the Gold Dow ratio instead the Dow Gold ratio, and put them on top of each other. Lo and behold – there is a cycle. It has a positive side and a negative side. If you are doing a Dow Gold ratio, you jump from being invested in paper assets like stocks and then back to gold for the long investment waves. I would say it is somewhere between 8 and 20 years you spend in an asset class, and you can do this with anything. If you measure your house in how many barrels of oil it is worth over a century and you jump back and forth from being invested in oil wells to being invested in real estate, it is the same thing as being invested in gold or the Dow. It is a very powerful tool that I believe has a high degree of predictability and safety to it, if you do not let the short-term noise flush you out.

 

Right now we are in consolidation. Gold has been chopping sideways for 19 months now, and it has worn people out. But basically gold is up. It is not up from 19 months ago when it was nearing $2,000, but it sure is up over the last decade. So I do not let the short-term noise affect me now that I know that we have not reached the point where the price of gold equals the points on the Dow. Right now gold’s value is one-ninth of the Dow, and so I know that it needs to rise by a factor of 18 against stocks before I need to get worried and start watching gold.

 

So I am very comfortable in these pullbacks. It gets a little aggravating, but still it does not bother me that much and is definitely not going to flush me out.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 03:50:28 AM
Gold & Silver in a free fall again this morning. Gold down 100 silver down over 3.00. Stocks look to open sharply lower also, stocks lower everywhere.

                                                                [Limit reached]
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold crushed by 400 tonnes of Selling Friday
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 04:21:28 AM
ROSS NORMAN - Gold crushed by 400 tonnes or $20 billion of selling on COMEXy 400 tonnes

The gold futures markets opened in New York on Friday 12th April to a monumental 3.4 million ounces (100 tonnes) of gold selling of the June futures contract (see below) in what proved to be only an opening shot. The selling took gold to the technically very important level of $1540 which was not only the low of 2012, it was also seen by many as the level which confirmed the ongoing bull run which dates back to 2000. In many traders minds it stood as a formidable support level... the line in the sand.

Two hours later the initial selling, rumoured to have been routed through Merrill Lynch's floor team, by a rather more significant blast when the floor was hit by a further 10 million ounces of selling (300 tonnes) over the following 30 minutes of trading. This was clearly not a case of disappointed longs leaving the market - it had the hallmarks of a concerted 'short sale', which by driving prices sharply lower in a display of 'shock & awe' - would seek to gain further momentum by prompting others to also sell as their positions as they hit their maximum acceptable losses or so-called 'stopped-out' in market parlance - probably hidden the unimpeachable (?) $1540 level.

 The selling was timed for optimal impact with New York at its most liquid, while key overseas gold markets including London were open and able feel the impact. The estimated 400 tonne of gold futures selling in total equates to 15% of annual gold mine production - too much for the market to readily absorb, especially with sentiment weak following gold's non performance in the wake of Japanese QE, a nuclear threat from North Korea and weakening US economic data. The assault to the short side was essentially saying "you are long... and wrong".

Futures trading is performed on a margined basis - that is to say you have to stump up about 5% of the actual cost of the gold itself making futures trades a highly geared 'opportunity' of about 20:1 - easy profit and also loss ! Futures trading is not a product for widows and orphans. The CME's 10% reduction in the required gold margins in November 2012 from $9133/contract to just $7425/contract made the market more accessible to those wishing both to go long or as it transpired, to go short. Soon after we saw the first serious assault to the downside in Dec 2012, followed by further bouts in January 2013 - modest in size compared to the recent shorting but effective - it laid the ground for what was to follow. One fund in particular, based in Stamford Connecticut, was identified as the previous shorter of gold and has a history of being caught on the wrong side of the law on a few occasions. As badies go - they fit the bill nicely.

 The value of the 400 tonnes of gold sold is approximately $20 billion but because it is margined, this short bet would require them to stump up just $1b. The rationale for the trade was clear - excessively bullish forecasts by many banks in Q4 seemed unsupported by follow through buying. The modest short selling in Jan 2013 had prompted little response from the longs - raising questions about their real commitment. By forcing the market lower the Fund sought to prompt a cascade or avalanche of additional selling, proving the lie ; predictably some newswires were premature in announcing the death of the gold bull run doing, in effect, the dirty work of the shorters in driving the market lower still.

This now leaves the gold market in an interesting conundrum - the shorter is now nursing a large gold position and, like the longs also exposed - that is to say the market is polarised between longs and shorts and they cannot both be right. Either the gold bulls - like in a game of tug-of-war - pull back and prompt the shorters to panic and buy back - or they do nothing, in which case the endless stories about the "end of gold" will see a steady further erosion in prices. At the end of the day it is a question of who has got the biggest guns - the shorts have made their play - let's see if there is any response from the longs to defend their position.   

Ross Norman

This story is provided by Sharps Pixley, for more information and content please visit: www.SharpsPixley.com (http://www.SharpsPixley.com)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 15, 2013, 08:48:37 AM
I'm heading to the coin store on my lunch break.   :coffee:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 09:05:03 AM
I'm heading to the coin store on my lunch break.   :coffee:

Hopefully to buy Haniel, looks like a great entry point. Figure the Comex will raise margins, blaming the move on the volatility and that will be it; but who knows. The fiat crowd with their options, futures, leverage etc have turned all the markets into a gambling den in  the short term.  Posting an article on Gold and the stench of the smackdown by J H Kunstler, you might find it interesting. Will be up in a moment.









Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Smack Down Time J H Kunstler
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 09:09:35 AM
 
Smack Down Time
By James Howard Kunstler
on April 15, 2013 7:46 AM

     What a humdinger last week was in a money world that is chugging toward maximum velocity and turbulence. Readers know (and may be sick of hearing) that I'm allergic to conspiracy theories, but my allergy is not absolute or total and there are excellent reasons to believe that the smack down of gold and silver was an orchestrated event. By whom? So far, in the opaque realm of paper gold sales, we don't know, except that it was a 500-ton dump that set off the larger skid, and it is even quite possible, as one anonymous wag put it on James Sinclair's website, that the buyer and seller were virtually the same entity -- meaning that the probable naked short transaction only amounted to a mere bookkeeping jot when all was said and done.
    Anyway, the 500-ton all-at-once dump could only be calculated to drive the price down. Any rational strategic sale of so much gold would be parceled out in smaller amounts over time so as not to drastically impair the sales revenue, as this sale did. And, by the way, who even has the roughly $25 billion holdings in paper gold besides a major government, a major central bank, or one of the Fed's Too Big To Fail handmaidens (Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley)? Or who could afford to eat the $billion-plus loss on the smacked-down sales value? In other words, the usual suspects.
        I hate the term The Powers That Be, with its odors of recycled paranoia and lumpen extremism, but signs of collusion abounded last week. First, on Wednesday, Goldman Sachs issued an advisory to short gold as the price flirted with $1600/oz. Then on Thursday, The New York Times planted a front-page story headlined: "Gold, Long a Secure Investment, Loses Its Luster." The story featured a quote by supreme market manipulator and world-class schmikler George Soros: "Gold was destroyed as a safe haven, proved to be unsafe," Mr. Soros said in an interview last week with The South China Morning Post of Hong Kong. "Because of the disappointment, most people are reducing their holdings of gold."

   Well, there you have it. Soros sez: Gold = shit. If you get some on your shoe, scrape it off. All that set the stage for the Friday smack down. Notice how falling gold and silver prices make the US dollar look good -- it takes fewer dollars to buy more precious metal. The dollar must therefore be sound! And this is in the interest of whom? Say, perhaps, a Federal Reserve busy systematically melting away the value of dollars through so-called quantitative easing (money "printing" or  promiscuous credit creation) plus financial repression (interest rate chicanery), and also a US government so deep underwater on its debt obligations that Treasury Secretary Jack Lew shares office space with the giant squid of the Aleutian Trench.
    To complicate matters, the day of the gold smash, rumors flew of a plan by the Cyprus government to sell off its relatively small gold holdings to pay off its EU debt -- didn't happen -- but the rumor had the effect of further queering the gold price some more by implying that the EU would soon come calling on all the PIIGS nations to settle up their vigs with yellow metal.
    Thursday, interesting things happened in another ring of the circus. The novelty investment called Bitcoin, having developed a hockey-stick chart profile, shooting up from about $60 a month ago to $260, got smacked smartly back down to $60. It had been attracting a lot of attention as a shelter from international monetary shenanigans -- and hypothetically as an eventual rival to funny-money central bank currencies. Bitcoin is a web-based species of virtual "money" invented by a shady character (or cohort of characters) called Satoshi Nakamoto whose true persona remains mysterious. Bitcoin's supposed virtue is that it can't be confiscated by governments -- though experienced programmers know any website can be hacked -- or otherwise meddled with, making it a more reliable store of value than the traditional "safe harbor"
 investments such as sovereign bonds and precious metals. Well, okay, but it raises a couple of questions: 1) Does the world need an even more abstract form of "money" than fiat currencies, CDOs, Fannie Mae promissory notes, and JC Penny stock? I don't think so. If anything, the world needs more tangible instruments to represent a store of value, a medium of exchange, and an index of price. Bitcoin is little more than a bundle of algorithms. Granted, math helps with the management of money, but is math "money?" 2) what happens if you can't get online to access your Bitcoin "wallet?" Is Bitcoin, after all, just another example of the techno-narcissism infecting contemporary culture?
     That idea is just off the radar screens of Bitcoin pimps such as Jon Matonis of Forbes Magazine who said last week that "civilization won't regress to the state of having no electricity." Really? You think so? Just watch. Electric grids all over the world are aging and decrepit -- the USA's in particular -- and the capital is not there to renovate them. And perhaps you haven't noticed the gathering scarcity problem with fossil fuels. You bet society could regress to, first, spotty electrical service and then possibly no electricity at all in many places. But that is an extreme case because in the meantime all it would take is a "denial of service" incident to render Bitcoin useless -- and the mysterious Mr or Ms Nakamoto him/her/itself induced a half-day time-out in Bitcoin last week, taking its Mt.Gox trading platform off-line.
     The week ahead in world money matters looks bloody and gruesome. Japan is committing financial hara-kiri by central bank desperation. In artificially suppressing the gold price, the American Powers That Be (yccchhh....) give China, Russia and other rivals the opportunity to buy gold cheaply, and to do so by dumping some of their US Treasury holdings, weakening the dollar's international exchange value -- which the gold smack down was supposed to enhance! China and Russia have both been steadily accumulating their gold holdings in plain sight, with the possible motive of backing currencies with more appeal in international trade settlements than the dodgy US dollar.
     The weeks ahead could be a bloodbath for the four horsemen of monetary apocalypse: the dollar, the Japanese yen, the Euro, and Great Britain's pound -- that is, the core of the so-called advanced economies of the world. What a prankster history is!

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/clusterfucknation/~3/sig8Rm3erzw/smack-down-time.html (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/clusterfucknation/~3/sig8Rm3erzw/smack-down-time.html)   :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:

Title: Re: Kunstler on Gold Smackdown
Post by: Eddie on April 15, 2013, 09:24:59 AM
A very plausible explanation. The thing is that the seeds have been planted for the biggest world wide deflationary collapse of all time. Gold is not likely to weather that storm without more downside.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on April 15, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Gotta love kuntsler, such a way with words. he only neglected to mention or didnt know of the massive amount of gold Soros had bought himself in recent months, as well as what he said in recent days.
Title: Re: Kunstler on Gold Smackdown
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
A very plausible explanation. The thing is that the seeds have been planted for the biggest world wide deflationary collapse of all time. Gold is not likely to weather that storm without more downside.

Perhaps, it would seem so,at least at the beginning of such an event. There is another body of opinion on the matter, of which I am a member, that thinks because of it's lack of counter party risk, the fact that it is not someone's liability, will make it much sought after after the inititial panic out of everything.

My mentors on Gold, C.V. Myers, William Tehan, Dr Franz Pick, were of the opinion that Gold would be the most sought after asset in the world in a deflationary bust because it was in essence the only REAL CASH. I realize it is a debatable point but it has merits in my opinion.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on April 15, 2013, 10:48:00 AM
I would not completely discount the possibility that in the event of a deflationary collapse gold would hold its value relative to other assets. In other words if the value of other assets deflate by 90% while gold only deflates by 80% then gold would become strong relative to other assets such as real estate etc. In even this case the gold bug would come on top (relatively speaking) as their investment did not go as far south as other investors. They could then monetise the gold and buy the other now cheaper assets and be richer than when they first made their gold investment. This is a possible scenario.

However I think the more likely scenario and the one I would still maintain in occurring is that a collapse in world trade is likely to cause the value of gold to diminish. As trade declines rapidly you will need to pay more and more gold to get the same number of goods as the decline in goods would go down more rapidly than the amount of gold in circulation. I would be interested to know how well commodities such as gold fair in war torn countries such as Somalia or even depressed regions such as Greece or even Weimar Germany. I believe in all such examples the role gold played in helping or alleviating such issues was trivial if it can even be measured at all. At the very least gold's "stability" were not the main drivers to economic recoveries and in some ways may even exacerbate recoveries (countries who insisted in staying on the Gold Standard recovered the slowest during the Great Depression for example). I would say finding such points in history would be the acid test on how helpful gold would really be in times of need. With that said there could be a window were gold puts you ahead but I do think in some shape or form you must "cash out" on gold in some way or you will get clobbered either through inflation or by confiscation both direct or indirect.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 15, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
]WHY, oh WHY doesn't ANYBODY want to admit that if PHYSICAL ownership was the only criteria for pricing PMs, this downward pressure would be IMPOSSIBLE in a the current currency debasing environment!!?
It's the NAKED SHORTING ON PAPER that is doing this, PERIOD!  :evil4:


From Standard Bank Gold report last friday labelled "Positioned for a Blood Bath:

Quote
Participants showed a reluctance to unwind short positions;
in fact, 1.1 tonnes were added (51.2 tonnes were added the
previous week). This brings total shorts to 267.7 tonnes,
more than 2.5x the 5-year average (106.7 tonnes) and
closing in on the 5-year high of 292.4 tonnes recorded in
mid-February of this year.
A paltry 7.8 tonnes were added to long positions; clearly, the
market was no where near confident in gold’s prospects for
further upside. This turned out to be prescient, as Friday
(not included in this data) saw a dramatic sell-off in gold
(and most other commodities), pushing it well below
$1,500/oz.

http://www.kitco.com/reports/ (http://www.kitco.com/reports/)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 11:20:20 AM
]WHY, oh WHY doesn't ANYBODY want to admit that if PHYSICAL ownership was the only criteria for pricing PMs, this downward pressure would be IMPOSSIBLE in a the current currency debasing environment!!?
It's the NAKED SHORTING ON PAPER that is doing this, PERIOD!  :evil4:


From Standard Bank Gold report last friday labelled "Positioned for a Blood Bath:

Quote
Participants showed a reluctance to unwind short positions;
in fact, 1.1 tonnes were added (51.2 tonnes were added the
previous week). This brings total shorts to 267.7 tonnes,
more than 2.5x the 5-year average (106.7 tonnes) and
closing in on the 5-year high of 292.4 tonnes recorded in
mid-February of this year.
A paltry 7.8 tonnes were added to long positions; clearly, the
market was no where near confident in gold’s prospects for
further upside. This turned out to be prescient, as Friday
(not included in this data) saw a dramatic sell-off in gold
(and most other commodities), pushing it well below
$1,500/oz.

http://www.kitco.com/reports/ (http://www.kitco.com/reports/)

I will admit to it AG, it's obvious, Mr Kunstler  seems to think so too. How long they let these whores gang bang markets is any ones guess. They obviously haven't learned a thing from the great crash five years back.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 11:28:01 AM
Most all markets caving in now at 2:30 EST   Gold down 135 Silver down 2.60 Platinum down 80.00 Palladium down 45.00

Dow down  200 S&P down 28.00  Nasdaq off a whopping 60   Oil getting hammered as well. 

Not a pretty day for the bulls on anything so far.  :-\
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 15, 2013, 11:29:45 AM
Quote
I will admit to it AG, it's obvious, Mr Kunstler  seems to think so too. How long they let these whores gang bang markets is any ones guess. They obviously haven't learned a thing from the great crash five years back.

GO,
Thank you for confirming my analysis. Kunstler is right BUT he refuses, like RE and others here, to get into the Black Scholes pricing formula that allows naked shorts into this crooked price discovery mechanism. This is BIG! This means the price on any God DAMNED THING CAN BE YANKED ASSBACKWARDS TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND JUST FOR THE PLEASURE OF TBTB AND OUR PAIN!  :emthdown:

This SUCKS!
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 11:42:51 AM
Quote
I will admit to it AG, it's obvious, Mr Kunstler  seems to think so too. How long they let these whores gang bang markets is any ones guess. They obviously haven't learned a thing from the great crash five years back.

Quote
GO,
Thank you for confirming my analysis. Kunstler is right BUT he refuses, like RE and others here, to get into the Black Scholes pricing formula that allows naked shorts into this crooked price discovery mechanism. This is BIG! This means the price on any God DAMNED THING CAN BE YANKED ASSBACKWARDS TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND JUST FOR THE PLEASURE OF TBTB AND OUR PAIN!  :emthdown:

They own the regulators AG, the corruption has seeped too far into the system. They are intoxicated with their power and the politicians kiss their ass for fear of angering them. OWS was our only hope and they took care of them in short order. Perhaps someday we will get a real leader in the White House, but that is just another dream too. No basis at all in reality. They give us two swine to pick from every four years, no one decent has a chance anymore.  :-[

This SUCKS!
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on April 15, 2013, 11:55:31 AM
]WHY, oh WHY doesn't ANYBODY want to admit that if PHYSICAL ownership was the only criteria for pricing PMs, this downward pressure would be IMPOSSIBLE in a the current currency debasing environment!!?
It's the NAKED SHORTING ON PAPER that is doing this, PERIOD!  :evil4:

One word for you. GREED. Same reason why shorting (which I would say is an ethically questionable activity to engage in) and even naked shorts is continued to be allowed. You can't take prevent the pigs from having their morning grub so people turn a blind eye. This same greed has a way of making people blind or in this case forgetful. I am staggered how people in England cheer when house prices rise and the number of mortgages made are increasing when it was precisely those things that caused the financial crisis!!! And it is not just idiots who advocate this nonsense but well educated people too! It times like this when I just scratch my head. :icon_scratch:

As for the dodgy gold market it is my understanding that even though the price of gold has declined on the whole banks have been buying more and more gold on the market and have increased their market share (at least this was the implication from the slogger article). If true that would mean the banks could have even greater powers to manipulate gold prices even further in the future. In any case a true gold bug does not trade his physical gold early for a quick buck but sees it as a long-term investment so this should not hurt the gold bugs who are genuinely in it for the long game. I do think there will be a rally in the future and people who have big gold positions should not panic.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Eddie on April 15, 2013, 12:10:59 PM
WHY, oh WHY doesn't ANYBODY want to admit that if PHYSICAL ownership was the only criteria for pricing PMs, this downward pressure would be IMPOSSIBLE in a the current currency debasing environment!!?
It's the NAKED SHORTING ON PAPER that is doing this, PERIOD!  :evil4:


Agree. But it's supported at the highest level of government, and the regulators are owned outright by the banks.

As assets of all kinds deflate, the winner may be the USD for the short run. In the event of a stock market collapse correction of say 50%, then I would be a buyer of gold and silver again. Metals would recover much faster than stocks, and as you say, GO, they always retain value.

After a major deflationary event that was actually adequate for a banking reset, then gold would surely soon find its real price, whatever that turns out to be.

Stackers never need worry about such things. I strongly advocate for holding some physical metals in every case. I would never recommend anyone sell ANY physical gold as long as they can meet their day to today needs and still have enough cash flow to make their regular monthly obligations.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 15, 2013, 01:11:53 PM
I'm heading to the coin store on my lunch break.   :coffee:

Hopefully to buy Haniel, looks like a great entry point. Figure the Comex will raise margins, blaming the move on the volatility and that will be it; but who knows. The fiat crowd with their options, futures, leverage etc have turned all the markets into a gambling den in  the short term.  Posting an article on Gold and the stench of the smackdown by J H Kunstler, you might find it interesting. Will be up in a moment.

They had no gold coins for sale.. I'm guessing they don't want to sell in the dip.  Will call me when they have some for sale.   :-\

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 15, 2013, 01:14:03 PM
Quote
They had no gold coins for sale.. I'm guessing they don't want to sell in the dip.  Will call me when they have some for sale.   :-\

Just curious Haniel, same for silver coins?
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 15, 2013, 01:34:49 PM

monsta666, Eddie and GO,
Yep. IF the price discovery mechanism was akin to put and call options where nobody has physical (unless they take delivery which hardly anybody ever does), THEN you would have a level playing field on the long and short side. But SOMEBODY always owns the commodity/PM so the owners get screwed by leveraged shorting.

Consider that a short, in theory (:evil4:  :evil6:) must BORROW the physical BEFORE the short. But when you can claim humongous amounts of the physical as if it had been BORROWED by CB supported naked short massive leverage, the price is pushed down. What a scam!

And let me add that when that happens, it's like pulling teeth to actually acquire physical because the coin dealer suppliers are probably in on the scam (I'm certain the "temporary" unavaillability of certain coins during the bogus price drop is no accident  :icon_mrgreen:).

And now look what happened with the Boston Marathon that underscores the high level coordination of the PM price crushing push.

Geesh! Talk about the fix being in! After that Boston Marathon attack the PM prices should have jumped and then rocketed up when the short covering rocket fuel comes in.

But no, they are bound and determined to ignore everything real just to keep the PM price down.

The fix is IN. Have a nice day...:evil3: 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on April 15, 2013, 05:21:33 PM
Are you saying at this coin shop you dont need to provide your name and adress, just cash no questions asked and at the proper market weight/$? I have only seen coins in the post office to buy with no ID, all fancy encased and costing about double the proper price per oz.

the long waits and lack of physical availability was predicted, I dont think its a scam necessarily. perth mint, had the same thing a few months back apparently because of chinese ownership of the gold mines and taking the gold there.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on April 15, 2013, 06:00:49 PM
If the Japanese markets are anything to go by then tomorrow will be another hectic day in the gold market... If current trends continue we could well see gold dropping below $1300.

------------------------

All Abe-Inspired "Gold-In-JPY" Buyers Now Underwater

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg) Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/15/2013 20:31 -0400

Japan is opening ugly - the commodity rout continues with rubber, gold ($1325), and copper all down hard and stocks also being hit as liquidations continue. JGBs are modestly bid 1-2bps (though fading). JPY's bounce off the after-hours spike is fading...

JPY was its strongest at the start of October - and then the new Abenomics plan began. Very quickly the "long of gold in JPY terms" trade became extremely popular. After an impressive 16.4% rise into mid-February, gold-in-JPY corrected modestly; but the BoJ-inspired action smashed gold-in-JPY back up to its recent highs (helped by the seeming capitulation is JPY longs on the bigger-than-expected QQE). This appears to be the last straw on this trade. With JPY shorts so extremely positioned (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-14/five-fund-flow-charts-every-japanese-stock-investor-should-see), the small rally on Thursday/Friday in JPY sent many scrambling to cover and, along with the need to unwind any and every asset to cover cash needs for JGB volatility (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-12/japanese-bonds-vs-gold-why-commodities-are-selling), the avalanche began in gold-in-JPY. In 2 days, the entire Abe-inspired 'rally' in gold-in-JPY has been undone and all post-Abe buyers are now underwater. Whether this marks a short-term capitulation of these positions is unclear but CTFC CoT this week will be intriguing - and further JGB vol will not help. The rally in JPY of the last two days is the largest in 35 months - so someone clearly broke something...

Gold in JPY has retraced all its post-Abe gains...

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/04/20130415_goldJPY_0.jpg)

It would appear that it is no longer moving from the lower left to the upper right...

and JPY is rallying faster than it has in 35 months...

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/04/20130415_JPY_0.jpg)

and Gold is plunging on the Japanese open (as margin calls flush a few more out)...

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/04/20130415_JPY1_0.jpg)

Japanese interest rate volatility is surging higher and gold is being sold to match it still (as we discussed here)...

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/04/20130415_JPY2_0.jpg)

Something broke when the BoJ went full retard...
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 15, 2013, 06:36:52 PM
This from Colorado Gold Bullion dealer

Substantial delays on most silver products. Silver Eagle premiums just increased to $3.50!  :evil4:


WE ARE SORRY FOR OUR LIMITED SUPPLY OF PRODUCTS, BUT THE DEMAND IS SO HIGH THAT MANUFACTURERS CANNOT KEEP UP!
  :icon_mrgreen:


http://www.coloradogold.com/ (http://www.coloradogold.com/)

Isn't that an AMAZING "coincidence" that when PMs are SO CHEAP, it's hard to get physical... WTF!!? I thought, DUH, that "everybody" was Dumpin' PMs! Nah, there's no scam going on...Not at ALL :evil6:

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on April 15, 2013, 06:59:52 PM
This from Colorado Gold Bullion dealer

Substantial delays on most silver products. Silver Eagle premiums just increased to $3.50!  :evil4:


WE ARE SORRY FOR OUR LIMITED SUPPLY OF PRODUCTS, BUT THE DEMAND IS SO HIGH THAT MANUFACTURERS CANNOT KEEP UP!
  :icon_mrgreen:


http://www.coloradogold.com/ (http://www.coloradogold.com/)

Isn't that an AMAZING "coincidence" that when PMs are SO CHEAP, it's hard to get physical... WTF!!? I thought, DUH, that "everybody" was Dumpin' PMs! Nah, there's no scam going on...Not at ALL :evil6:

AG If people like you and haniel are suddenly rushing to buy coins  dont you think many other people also are and got there first? Was there not already a waiting period before the recent dive? The DUMPING is only dumping of futures gold not yet dug up, even I know that. The world of the gold bug and the world of the CB's and pigmen are not the same. Plus the chinese now own the gold mines in africa, australia, asia and south america. They have stocked 2000 tons and are stocking another 2000 to take over reserve currency status. They are simply taking most of it home.
Title: Kunstler-Elvis Podcast on Gold Smackdown?
Post by: RE on April 16, 2013, 12:23:06 AM
Kunstler asked Elvis to join him in a Podcast.  No indication yet from Elvis if he will accept the Invite.  Should be entertaining if he does.

RE
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Rise of the PetroYuan
Post by: g on April 16, 2013, 04:08:51 AM

How the Chinese currency is replacing the U.S. Dollar in global oil markets

History is being written in the East. As the U.S. stays distracted with stone age warriors in Central Asia and the Middle East, the last platform of the American economic foundation, the U.S. Dollar's currency reserve status, is being underminded by their trade partners in Asia. Both Australia and Japan are set to start direct-trading in Chinese currency and they are not the only ones. There are almost 20 countries whom have currency swaps in place with China all in order to side-step the U.S. Dollar in global trade. At the China Money Report, we have written extensively on the "Rise of the Renminbi". What is new and largely unreported and what we will cover in this article is the "Rise of the Petroyuan," as China is now converting its oil imports into Chinese Yuan as opposed to U.S. Dollars. This will be a new challenge and possibly the fatal blow to the U.S. Dollar as the dominant global reserve currency.

With their industrial base all but gone, the housing market bubble popped, and the Federal Resereve funding the majority of the government debt with printed currency, the American economy can ill-afford a new challenge to its currency's reserve status. It is this very reserve status which has led to America being able to consume more than it produces for decades upon decades as foriegn countries were willing to trade consumer products for paper IOU's. The Dollar's reserve status came about naturally after WW2 as the U.S. was the world's larget trading nation, exporter, and creditor. Today, China occuppies all of these slots.

China will soon occupy a new slot: That of the world's largest oil importer. OPEC has confirmed on April 4th of this year that they expect China to surpass the United States as the world's largest oil importer in 2014. This shift in global oil flows is being driven by the twin pillars of a booming Chinese economy and America’s newfound booming domestic oil and gas supply. This shift in the oil trade carries with it massive geopolitical implications that will reshape the world as we know it.
China’s Increasing Oil Imports

The demand side of oil from China has already reshaped geopolitics and global supply chains. Between 2002 and 2010, China's annual imports of crude increased from 70m tonnes to more than 270 million tonnes. Saudi Arabia’s largest customer for oil is no longer the U.S. but the Peoples Republic of China. In the year 2012, China’s net oil imports were still 1 million barrels per day lower than in the United States, but in some months, China was very close and even surpassed the U.S. in net oil imports. In December 2012 for instance, China imported 6 million barrels a day compared to only 5.98 million barrels in the U.S. From 2010-2015 alone, oil imports in China are expected to grow over 40%. China's oil demand growth is expected to represent 64% of all new demand for oil in 2012-2013.

The upside potential of oil imports into China are still not understood by most analysts and the potential on how large they could become is incredible. Car sales in China are already almost twice the levels in the U.S. and sales are up 20% for the first two months of 2013. Keep in mind that 90% of car sales are paid cash-up-front and most large cities have prohibitive taxes and quotas against new car sales. Despite these regulations, sales are still up 20% so far in 2013. All of these new cars and trucks will of course require more oil that China will need to import. General Motors already sells more vehicles in China than they do the United States and their sales are growing double-digits.

China's increasing dependence on imported oil has threatened the country's energy security and it is of major concern to the government. China’s oil dependence is expected to reach 59.4 percent in 2013. Be assured, China is building a blue-water navy and developing the global relationships, which will be required to protect this supply of crude they require today and the ever increasing amount they will need in the future. Indeed, the country of China may be forced into becoming the reluctant miltary superpower to guarantee that they have access to global oil markets.
Americans Turning Off Oil Imports

In comparison to China, the US reliance on foreign energy imports has declined considerably, and many are predicting that the US could be energy self-sufficient by 2030 thanks to its surging domestic production of shale gas and oil. The US is now expected to be a gas exporter by 2020 instead of the previously projected 2022. Domestic oil supplies as well as Canadian supplies will make North America energy independent. This is good news for the U.S. and this new found wealth could be used for a new platform for a revitalized American economy if they can substianlly restructure the tax and legal system which has driven production out of the country.
Trading Oil for Yuan

Recent reports from Reuters, have confirmed that China is now trading their own domestic currency, the Yuan, for oil. Both Russia, and Iran are now using Yuan for oil sales to China. Venezuela is sure to follow. With Russia and Iran accepting Yuan for oil that means there are now almost 1 million barrels per day being exchanged for Yuan instead of USD. Angola can be expected to move oil sales into Chinese Yuan if they haven't already. Over half of their oil sales are now to China. For Venezuela, the political relationship with the U.S. is well known as fear of the U.S. military might be the only thing stopping them from shifting oil sales into Yuan now. Sudan is another country, highly dependent on China politically and will most likely convert their oil sales into Chinese Yuan.

If Russia, Iran, Angola, Sudan, and Venezuela all convert just their oil sales to China into the Chinese Yuan the world will see over 5 million barrels per day traded not in U.S. dollars but in Chinese Yuan. Good night Petro Dollar...Hello Petro Yuan.
Geopolitical Shift and Rise of the Petro Yuan

Does China, as the world’s largest importer of oil then take charge of global sea lanes to ensure the trade in oil? This has been a priority of the U.S. military for the last 50 years. The Pentagon is spending $1.58 trillion annually on hardware for trucks, planes, ships, and guns. In 2013, their cost increase alone was $74 billion. The cost increases this year alone, of $74 billion, is more than Russia’s entire military budget. Can America justify a defense budget of this size to protect sea lines for Saudi crude going to China?

What about the so called “King Dollar”? For decades you could trade oil for dollars. This relationship has gone a long way towards making the U.S. dollar the world’s reserve currency. What happens when the U.S. no longer needs to buy imported oil. As time goes on, the oils futures markets will no doubt shift more to Dubai and Dalian, than West Texas and Brent Crude. In decades past, America's thirst for energy imports resulted in all oil contracts being denominated in U.S. Dollars, the so-called Petro Dollar. The Petro Dollar is now headed for extinction to make way for the Petro Yuan.

We are all witnessing the birth pangs of a new global reserve currency and the "Rise of the Petro Yuan".
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 16, 2013, 05:06:25 AM
Gold got down to 1320 last night and is now at 1388  a 68 dollar bounce of the low

Silver got down to 21.12 and is now trading at 23.70 a larger than 2 dollar bounce and more impressive than Gold's bounce back so far.

Action leads me to believe the manipulators are more concerned with keeping Gold down rather than silver.

Surprised the COMEX didn't jack margins up yet, might mean some of their big boys got caught by surprise, but I rather doubt it.

Agelbert and Haniel I was unable to purchase either so I have decided to go the ETF route GLD and SLV, a poor substitute I know for the real thing, but useful for day trading an unusual event such as this when the physical markets are frozen for the buyers.  Gold mining stocks hammered to ridiculous prices also and offer and avenue to play the smash for those so inclined.  Options look attractive here for those with little capital and a stomach for greater than normal risk.

                                                            [Limit reached]
                                                             [Limit reached]
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 16, 2013, 08:55:21 AM
Quote
With their industrial base all but gone, the housing market bubble popped, and the Federal Resereve funding the majority of the government debt with printed currency, the American economy can ill-afford a new challenge to its currency's reserve status. It is this very reserve status which has led to America being able to consume more than it produces for decades upon decades as foriegn countries were willing to trade consumer products for paper IOU's. The Dollar's reserve status came about naturally after WW2 as the U.S. was the world's larget trading nation, exporter, and creditor. Today, China occuppies all of these slots.
GO,
I guess the idea that China is "toast" is a bit premature...  ;) :icon_mrgreen:

In regard to PM ETFs, my wife won't hear of me getting into the MAHKET  :icon_mrgreen:, but IF I was to get in I'd head straight for AGQ double levereged silver ETF. Somebody is going to rake it in there but sadly, it won't be me :(.

Good luck to you.

Uncle Bob,
Maybe you are right and there is no scam but I, ignorant fool that I am  :icon_mrgreen:, believe there is one. Bombs in Boston and a big quake in Iran and PM prices don't rocket up!? Give me a break here!

By the way, futures contracts are only a tiny portion of price discovery, not the full picture. Puts and calls in or out of the money and how much of what most people are buying is an effect of the long and short positions (and, of course, actual buying and selling of physical and ETF equities) separate from the futures contracts themselves. Futures contracts, if not sold prior to expiration date, as you know, do nothing to the commodity's price. Good luck and Caveat Emptor! :icon_mrgreen:

NOTE: AGQ is up over 6% as I posted here.
https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA%3AAGQ&ei=6LUrUfjCMLK50QGCbQ (https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA%3AAGQ&ei=6LUrUfjCMLK50QGCbQ)
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 16, 2013, 09:03:34 AM
Quote
They had no gold coins for sale.. I'm guessing they don't want to sell in the dip.  Will call me when they have some for sale.   :-\

Just curious Haniel, same for silver coins?

They had rounds, bit pricey (spot plus 1.50 I think) and I'm not after silver at present.  No sales tax here on purchases of coins over $ 1,500, so I usually use silver to round up to make sure I go over the threshold.   

The pawn side of the business had a queue out of the door, but apparently that's normal these days.

Title: The Final Liquidation of the Gold Bug
Post by: RE on April 17, 2013, 02:11:25 AM
It's the FINAL COUNTDOWN for Goldfinger!

http://www.youtube.com/v/9jK-NcRmVcw
Notice it says "GO" at 0:54 in the Video  :icon_mrgreen:

The article BTW is written by a Gold Bug, who at the end PLEADS with his Fellow Gold Bugs to STAY THE COURSE!  Be BRAVE my Fellow Gold Bugs!  "The Few, The Proud, The STACKERS!" LOL.

RE

The Final Liquidation of the Gold Bug (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-final-liquidation-of-the-gold-bug/5331187)

(http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/gold1.jpg)
What you are witnessing in the gold market right now is the final liquidation of the gold bug. On Friday gold fell $84 an ounce for a 5.38% drop while the HUI gold stock index fell 6%. Big bad moves. What is worse these drops have come after months of falling gold prices all while the S&P 500 has gone higher.
This has been a very painful time for gold and silver bugs. While they have lost money they have for the most part watched the broad US stock market go up, which means that while their gold positions went down in value those not invested in gold and in just about anything else made money while they lost money. It feels awful to do that. There is only one word for this – brutal.
Gold bugs have been holding on to their positions since gold last made a peak in the Fall of 2011. Since then the HUI has dropped 53% since it topped out on September 8, 2011. They have held on through some frightening declines and seeming bottoms that provided nothing but false hope. Last year we saw a potential bottom in the Spring and a rally in the Fall that led to nothing but another top and a nosedive into this year and into the present.
The reward for believing in gold has been to be punished over and over again. Many gold bugs bought into gold with the idea that it was a safe haven – that to buy into the US stock market or stocks anywhere else in the world was just too risky to do. Didn’t the 2008 stock market crash prove that? Didn’t the European crisis of last year show us all the risks of debt? Not exactly – as European markets have boomed since last summer with Greece of all places being the fastest gaining market in the world.
But many have said that only gold can go up. That only gold will provide a way to make money. They promised that if you bought gold you would come out a winner while one day everyone else will lose money. Now it seems that all of the promises have proven to not be true and that gold has been the big disappointment.
Now many are selling disgust. CNBC is saying that gold is done, because Ben Bernanke and President Obama have put the country on the verge of a coming economic boom. They say command and control economics is the future and anyone who doubts this by owning gold is a dinosaur. In the last month we have seen days in which good economic news comes out that gold has gone done in value. Then on days when bad news has been announced gold goes down too instead of doing up.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ezs3-07fe5200-1422-1d54-b18490029e76bad0/images/charts2013/gold04142013b.png)
Then on Friday the Cyprus government said it would sell gold and give the proceeds to the European Monetary Union to finance its bank bailouts as it gives up its national birthright. It seems no news is good for gold. Goldman Sachs sent a note to clients last week telling them to short gold (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEgQqQIwAA&url=http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2013/04/10/goldman-sachs-short-gold/&ei=wJhoUe-PE4je8wTi04GICA&usg=AFQjCNGItY_yxdfrzH2XRHBtmIRNcAF0yA&sig2=M8Z11Ywebrs7Uchg0Vj6gw&bvm=bv.45175338,d.eWU). Marc Faber told a reporter this weekend that he thinks gold could drop to $1,300 an ounce before bottoming.
Many are saying gold is over and there are some now that have held on to their gold positions for years and are now selling. Some are taking that money and moving it into the S&P 500 in obedience to the talking heads on CNBC and really more in fear of missing out on more stock market gains than anything else. If that turns out to be a mistake well at least they won’t be alone – so for many there is emotional comfort in that. They’ll lose money with everyone else and that isn’t as bad as possibly being all alone in gold while your neighbors in their boring mutual funds make money not knowing what they are doing. But that is not prudent investment behavior.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ezs3-07fe5200-1422-1d54-b18490029e76bad0/images/charts2013/liesman.jpg)
And Goldman Sachs isn’t always right. What Goldman Sachs does with its own money and what it tells clients can be two different things. Back in March of 2000 Goldman Sachs talking head Abby Cohen told people to keep buying Internet stocks just as they topped. In July of last year Goldman Sachs sent a note to clients telling them to SHORT the S&P 500 due to what they thought were signs of economic weakness in the US economy. That was a mistake and this call now to short on gold on their behalf will be proven to be one too.
“So what is going on then?” you probably are asking. Why is gold falling? What does this mean? Are all the economic risks gone? Is deflation coming? Is Fed QE the miracle CNBC’s Steve Liesman says it is? Yes there are some who hate gold bugs, because they represent doubts over the Federal Reserve. They wish they would become extinct.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/The_Gold_Bug_Herpin.JPG)
But gold is not going away. Here is the thing. No one really knows exactly why gold is falling, because there probably is not some big economic reason for it. The truth is markets are cruel. They go up and trap people at tops and then fall far enough to cause as many people to sell on a bottom as they can. This is how bull and bear markets work.
Bear markets do not come to an end when news all of a sudden gets better. They come to an end when every potential seller in them sells out. This is what really causes bear markets – more selling than buying. Gold has been in a bear market now since 2011. However, that is a two year bear cycle within a long-term secular bull market cycle that has been going on for gold now for over a decade and is not over yet.
There are two things you need to realize. When this gold bear market is over a new bull market will begin and those that are invested in that bull market will make an absolute killing. Gold is still up over 580% from 2001 even with its decline of the past two years. And since then gold has gone through two other major declines which lasted over a year that led to awesome gains once they ended. There is no reason to think this time will be different.
Whatever you do you need to make sure that you are in gold during that next bull market. To sell now would mean to give that up. Perhaps though you have to sell. Maybe you own too much. Maybe you are on margin. Maybe you are a hedge fund with investors that now will have no more patience for your gold positions with the S&P 500 going up the past few months. You see bear markets force people to sell for many reasons. Hundreds of millions of dollars are being forced out of the gold market right now.
Second you have to realize that there is nothing easy about trying to make big bucks out of a financial market, because financial markets are cruel. If you thought the gold game was going to be easy than grow up. But realize that nothing else will be any easier. Don’t think for a second that the S&P 500 is going to remain an easy game for people either. Since I’ve been in the financial markets there have been two massive stock market wipeouts that were just as bad – if not worse – than what we are witnessing in gold right now. And I am sure eventually once this bull market in the US stock market ends there will be another cruel bear market that will wipeout another round of investors.
This is how the stock market works and this cycle will never end. You see bull markets thrive on buying. They depend on more people putting more money into use to drive them higher. As people buy they get bullish. If someone has money and is on the sidelines he has doubts about the market. But once he buys he pushes those doubts away and proclaims himself to be a bull! That is why at major market tops bullish sentiment is widespread and just about everyone you know is in. But when there are no buyers left to get in the bull market ends as sellers take control.
As bear market start people hold on in hope. Each rally that comes appears to be the start of a new bull market, but as each successive rally disappoints more and more people sell. Sellers take control of the market. Whether the news is good or bad the market drops anyway.
You see the NEWS DOES NOT MATTER. In bull markets bad news is bought and in bear markets all news gets sold. The news means nothing. All that matters is whether the sellers are in control or the buyers. All that matters is whether the market is in a bull market or a bear market and that is ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. Trying to figure out why gold is dropping right now is a total waste of your time. It is dropping because it has been in a bear market for almost two years now and at the end of bear markets you can get crashes and extremes in bearish sentiment as every person who is a potential seller finally sells in a giant capitulation. What you are witnessing is not some grand change in the world economy, but the mass liquidation of all remaining gold bugs. It is simply the natural process of a bear market cycle that started in the Fall of 2011.
Right now the sentiment surrounding this gold market is just about as bad now as I’ve ever seen it. For instance see this comment from the blog Theshortsideoflong.com (http://theshortsideoflong.blogspot.com/2013/04/hulbert-gold-sentiment-at-record-lows.html):

I have hinted at the extreme depressed sentiment including the following important indicators:
• In early March COT reported Gold short positions reached the highest level in over a decade
• In early March Gold’s Public Opinion reached one of the lowest levels in at least a decade
• Last week COT reported Silver short positions reached the highest level in almost two decades
• Last week Silver’s Public Opinion reached one of the lowest levels in at least a decade
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FEIin20ZUlQ/UWO04Yj24UI/AAAAAAAAQL0/hpAh5Kx4xRc/s1280/Hulbert Gold Newsletter Sentiment Index .png)
The latest development worthy of “decade extreme” or “record extreme” within the Precious Metals sector, comes to us thanks to Mark Hulbert Financial Digest. According to Mark’s latest WSJ column, there has been a huge plunge in exposure of various Gold newsletter advisors. Currently, the Hulbert Gold Newsletter Sentiment index (HGNSI) is at -31% net short, a historical record low since the inception of the survey in 1997. Essentially, this means that the average Gold newsletter advisor is telling subscribers and various other clients to be short Gold with 31% of their portfolio.

I just want to plead with you, do not give up on gold! You see no one cannot predict at what exact price the current gold price drop is going to end, but I can tell you two things for sure. I can tell you first of all that gold stocks are super cheap now on a fundamental basis with many gold stocks paying big dividends – dividends bigger than you can get from buying a US treasury bond. Newmont for example has a P/E of 10 and is paying a dividend over 4.30%.
I know you are probably thinking well they were cheap a month ago too and that doesn’t mean that gold and gold stocks can’t go lower. And yes you are right! They can. But one thing we both know for sure all bear markets come to an end and this one will too. And once it does gold prices will explode in value and a whole new cycle of gold investors will make a mint off of it.
I plan on being a part of that. I have a little gold and gold stock position so this drop has barely made a dent in my portfolio. You see I own positions in markets all over the world and gold has just been a tiny part of my portfolio. I didn’t want to buy a whole lot of it until I was sure the bear trend was over.
Now I am getting excited about the idea of buying more of it. Tomorrow morning I am going to send premium WSW Power Investors my game plan for doing just that. We are all learning lessons from these markets. You never stop learning.
If you have had no choice but to sell gold positions because of this decline or feel like you must due to the impact a further drop in gold would have on your portfolio or your job if you are a fund manager then the lesson you need to take away from this is not that gold is now bad, but that you need to manage your money differently in the future. The mistake you made was not in owning gold, but in owning too much of it or not reducing your position at the right time and taking some profits if you sold years ago.
Maybe you are in cash and are feeling no pain at all though. I do not know what your personal position is on gold as I am writing this for myself and thousands of others who will read it. What all of us must do, no matter what our current investments are, is figure out what is the best way to make money in these markets going forward. If you believe like I do that gold will go higher once again once its current decline that started way back in the Fall of 2011 is over than you must figure out how you want to be a part of that next bull run in gold and precious metals. You need to figure out when you want to buy it and how much.
You need to figure out how you want to manage your money in a bull market. You see people buy in tops and sell on crashes over and over again never learning anything, because they never stop to learn from what they have already done. Once you learn then you make money in a sustainable manner.
Bull markets come and go. So do bear markets. These cruel cycles and patterns never will end, because they are human nature. With gold we are witnessing climatic bear market crash action. We are witnessing the liquidation of the gold bug and the beginning of a bottom. The only thing left once all of the potential sellers are gone will be the few strong hands left – those will be the people who just own a little bit so they don’t get crushed so much they have to sell and those simply tough enough to hold on. They are the few and the brave.
What you have to think about though isn’t being tough – but getting smarter when it comes to investing. Market action like this is when it makes sense to make plans to buy. Think about last year when European markets crashed and everyone said it was stupid to invest there. No one believed, because no one was left to believe. And now the gold bugs are almost all gone too.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Gold Slam Is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets
Post by: g on April 17, 2013, 03:17:01 AM
This Gold Slam Is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks

By Chris Martenson PhD
Created 16 Apr 2013

I am very disappointed by, but not surprised at, the latest transfer of weath to the bankers from everyone else. The most recent gold bear raid has vastly enriched the bullion bankers, once again, at the expense of everyone trying to protect their wealth from global central bank money printing.

The central plank of Bernanke's magic recovery plan has been to get everybody back borrowing, spending, and "investing" in stocks, bonds, and other financial assets. But not equally so - he has been instrumental in distorting the landscape towards risk assets and away from safe harbors.

That's why a 2- year loan to the US government will only net you 0.22%, a rate that is far below even the official rate of inflation. In other words, loan the US government $10,000,000 and you will receive just $22,000 per year for your efforts and lose wealth in the process because inflation reduced the value of your $10,000,000 by $130,000 per year. After the two years is up, you are up $44k but out $260k for net loss of $216,000.

That wealth, or purchasing power, did not just vanish: it was taken by the process of inflation and transferred to someone else. But to whom did it go? There's no easy answer for that, but the basic answer is that it went to those closest to the printing press. It went to the government itself which spent your $10,000,000 loan the instant you made it, and it went to the financiers that play the leveraged game of money who happen to be closest to the Fed's printing press.

This explains, almost completely, why the gap between the rich and everyone else is widening so rapidly, and why financiers now populate the top of every Forbes 400 list. There is no mystery, just a process of wealth transfer of magnificent and historic proportions; one that has been repeated dozens of times throughout history.
This Gold Slam Was By and For the Bullion Banks

A while back I noted to Adam that the gold slams that were first detected back in January were among the weakest I'd ever seen. Back then I was seeing the usual pattern of late night, thin-market futures dumping which I had seen before in 2008 and 2011, two other periods when precious metals were slammed hard.

The process is simple enough to understand; if you want to move the price down for any asset, your best results will happen in a thin market when there's not a lot of participation so whatever volume you supply has a chance of wiping out whatever bids are sitting on the books. It is in those dark hours that the market makers just dump, preferably as fast as possible.

This is exactly what I saw repeatedly leading up to Friday's epic dump-fest. The mainstream media (MSM), for its part, fully supports these practices by failing to even note them, and the CFTC has never once commented on the practice, and we all know that central banks support a well contained precious metals (PM) price because they are actively trying to build confidence in their fiat money, and rising PM prices serve to reduce confidence.

Here's a perfect example of the MSM in action, courtesy of the Financial Times:

    Gold tumbles to two-year low [1]

    “There is no other way to put gold’s recent sell-off: nasty,” said Joni Teves, precious metals strategist at UBS in London, adding that gold would have to work to “rebuild trust” among investors.

    Tom Kendall, precious metals analyst at Credit Suisse said “Once again gold investors are being reminded that the metal is not a very effective hedge against broad-based risk-off moves in the commodity markets.”

There are two things to note in these snippets. The first is that the main ideas being promoted about gold are that it is no longer to be trusted, and that somehow the recent move is a result of "risk off" decisions meaning, conversely, that there is increased trust in the larger financial markets that 'investors' are rotating towards. Note that these ideas are exactly the sort of messages that central bankers quite desperately want to have conveyed.

The second observation is even more interesting; namely that the only people quoted work directly for the largest bullion banks in the world. These are the very same outfits that stood to gain enormously if precious metals dropped in price. Of course they are thrilled with the recent sell off. They made billions.

In February Credit Suisse 'predicted' the gold market had peaked, SocGen said the end of the gold era was upon us, and recently Goldman Sachs told everyone to short the metal.

While that's somewhat interesting, you should first know that the largest bullion banks had amassed huge short positions in precious metals by January.

The CFTC rather coyly refers to the bullion banks as simply 'large traders' but everyone knows that these are the bullion banks. What we are seeing in that chart is that out of a range of commodities the precious metals were the most heavily shorted, by far.

So the timeline here is easy to follow - the bullion banks:

    Amass a huge short position early in the game
    Begin telling everyone to go short (wink, wink) to get things moving along in the right direction by sowing doubt in the minds of the longs
    Begin testing the late night markets for depth by initiating mini raids (that also serve to let experienced traders know that there's an elephant or two in the room)
    Wait for the right moment and then open the floodgates to dump such an overwhelming amount of paper gold and silver into the market that lower prices are the only possible result.
    Close their positions for massive gains and then act as if they had made a really precient market call
    Await their big bonus checks and wash, rinse, repeat at a later date

While I am almost 100% certain that any decent investigation by the CFTC would reveal that market manipulating 'dumping' was happening, I am equally certain that no such investigation will occur. That's because the point of such a maneuver by the bullion banks is designed to
transfer as much wealth from 'out there' and towards the center and the CFTC is there to protect the center's 'right' to do exactly that.

This all began on Friday April 12th, and one of the better summaries is provided by Ross Norman of Sharps Pixley, a London Bullion brokerage:

    The gold futures markets opened in New York on Friday 12th April to a monumental 3.4 million ounces (100 tonnes) of gold selling of the June futures contract (see below) in what proved to be only an opening shot. The selling took gold to the technically very important level of $1540 which was not only the low of 2012, it was also seen by many as the level which confirmed the ongoing bull run which dates back to 2000. In many traders minds it stood as a formidable support level... the line in the sand.

    Two hours later the initial selling, rumored to have been routed through Merrill Lynch's floor team, by a rather more significant blast when the floor was hit by a further 10 million ounces of selling (300 tonnes) over the following 30 minutes of trading. This was clearly not a case of disappointed longs leaving the market - it had the hallmarks of a concerted 'short sale', which by driving prices sharply lower in a display of 'shock & awe' - would seek to gain further momentum by prompting others to also sell as their positions as they hit their maximum acceptable losses or so-called 'stopped-out' in market parlance - probably hidden the unimpeachable (?) $1540 level.

    The selling was timed for optimal impact with New York at its most liquid, while key overseas gold markets including London were open and able feel the impact. The estimated 400 tonne of gold futures selling in total equates to 15% of annual gold mine production - too much for the market to readily absorb, especially with sentiment weak following gold's non performance in the wake of Japanese QE, a nuclear th

The areas circled represent the largest 'dumps' of paper gold contracts that I have ever seen. To reiterate Ross's comments, there is no possible way to explain those except as a concerted effort to drive down the price.

To put this in context, if instead of gold this were corn we were talking about, 128,000,000 tonnes of corn would have been sold during a similar 3 hour window, as that amount represents 15% of the world's yearly harvest. And what would have happened to the price? It would have been driven sharply lower, of course. That's the point, such dumping is designed to accomplish lower prices, period, and that's the very definition of market manipulation.

For a closer-up look at this process, let's turn to Sunday night and with a resolution of about 1 second (the chart above is with 5 minute 'windows' or candles as they are called). Here I want you to see that whomever is trading in the thin overnight market and is responsible for setting the prices is not humans. Humans trade small numbers of contracts and in consistently random amounts.

Here's an example:
These are just a few of the dozens of examples I captured over a single hour of trading before I lost interest in capturing any more.

As I was watching this and discussing it with Adam in real time, I knew that I was watching the sort of HFT/computer trading robots that we've discussed here so much in the past. They are perfectly designed to chew through bid structures and that's what you see above. They are 'digesting' all the orders that were still on the books for gold, to remove them so that lower and lower stops could be run.

Anybody that had orders up against these machines, perhaps with stops in place, or perhaps even asleep because this all happened in the hours around midnight EST, lost and lost big.

There is really no chance to stand again players this large with a determination to drive prices lower. At the very least, I take the above evidence of computer assisted declines of this magnitude to be a sign that our "markets" are completely broken and quite vulnerable to a crash. That the authorities did not step in to halt these markets during such a volatile decline, when they have repeatedly stepped into other markets and individual equity shares on lesser declines, tells me much about the level of official support for such a decline.

It also tells me that things are speeding up and the next decline in the equity or bond markets may happen a lot faster than anybody is expecting.
Unintended Consequences

If the intended consequences of this move were to enrich the bullion banks and to chase investors away from gold and other commodities and into stocks, what are the unintended consequences going to be?

While I cannot dispute that the bullion banks made out like bandits, I also wonder if perhaps instead of signaling that the dollar is safer than gold, that the banks did not unintentionally send the larger signal that deflation is gaining the upper hand?

With deflation, everything falls apart. It is the most feared thing to the powers that be and for good reason. Without inflation, and at least nominal GDP growth, if not real growth, then all of the various rescues and steadily growing piles of public debt will slump towards outright failure, and possibly collapse. The unintended consequence of dropping gold so powerfully is to signal that deflation is winning the day.

If this view is correct, then the current sell off in gold, as well as in other commodities (detailed in part II), will simply be the trigger for a loss of both confidence and liquidity in the system and that will not bode well for the larger economy or equities.

In Part II: Protecting Your Wealth From Deflation [9] we explore the growing signs that the money printing efforts of the central planners are seeing diminishing returns and are failing in their intended effect to kick-start global economic growth higher. Deflationary forces appear poised to take the upper hand here, sending asset prices lower -- potentially much lower -- across the board.

If deflation indeed manages to break out from under the central banks efforts to contain it, even if only for a short period, how bad will the ensuing wave of price instability be? How can one position for it? How extreme will the measures the central banks take in response be? And what impact will that have on asset prices, the dollar and precious metals?

We are entering a new chapter in the unfolding of our economic emergency, one in which the risks to capital are greater than ever. And the rules are increasingly being re-written to the disadvantage of us individuals.

The one unfair advantage we have is that history is very clear on how these periods of economic malfeasance end. Let's exploit that as best we're able.


Many interesting unique charts in article
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/vjfhBDwAMOg/gold-slam-massive-wealth-transfer-our-pockets-banks (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fso/~3/vjfhBDwAMOg/gold-slam-massive-wealth-transfer-our-pockets-banks)   :icon_study: :icon_study:

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 17, 2013, 09:13:00 AM
Quote
Why So Many Analysts Insist Gold Will Tank

This is a non-complex issue that economists like to make it sound complex in order to further their temporary need for market stimulation. Anyone that tells you that the result of Nixon shock is any more complicated than supply and demand methods learned in an ECON 101 class is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. What I mean by that is that this is a far less complicated issue than many economists will have you believe. It has to do with the amount of money in the supply versus the finite, unchangeable amount of gold available worldwide. :emthup:

So, the wool that Goldman could be trying to pull over your eyes here could be the same tactics used by analysts, market makers and hedge fund traders everywhere: create a trend and buy/sell the opposite into it. If you think Goldman could not possibly be buying gold on their very own downgrade and assumed corresponding price decline, then I have some real estate in Alaska I'd like to sell you. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the "waning interest" in gold that Goldman is citing could be as fabricated as the money we continue to print. :evil4:

The above quote is from an interesting article from a fellow that has been calling a market top since March 12. I think he makes a lot of sense. :emthup: :icon_mrgreen:

3 Moves To Make On The Verge Of Market Panic
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1344511-3-moves-to-make-on-the-verge-of-market-panic?source=email_the_daily_dispatch&ifp=0 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/1344511-3-moves-to-make-on-the-verge-of-market-panic?source=email_the_daily_dispatch&ifp=0)

SNIPPET
Quote
How You Can Invest This :

Buy puts against long equity positions you want to hold

Write calls against long equity positions you want to hold

Sell short a competitor to your long positions as a sector hedge [i.e. If you're long Chipotle (CMG), short Panera (PNRA)]

Buy inverse index ETFs like DOG, DXD, QID

2. Gold is Cheap, Buy It Now

Gold (GLD) was down 9% early this week commensurate with the panic that ensued on Monday.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: DoomerSupport on April 17, 2013, 10:05:06 AM
Gold is just the latest market to be blatantly manipulated.  It joins pretty much any other asset class in that respect.  Resources are being herded into the fiat currencies to keep them viable for a little while longer. 

I plan to hold onto my PM's and maybe add a little more in this dip, but I am loosing confidence in PM's being left to float as a gauge of wealth compared to the fiat currencies.  While it's a store of wealth, the concerted effort to drive down the prices concerns me.  I suspect that the bullion banks are trying to get back what they leased from the FR to meet delivery calls from players big enough to make waves if they do not get it - like Germany.

The way it played out, it looked like the big players gamed the system to cause a lot of GLD to sell via automated triggers, in the middle of the night when the little guys were sleeping. It's why I don't trust paper.

If the government ever want to repeat the gold confiscation gag, then they'll need to drive the price way down so they only pay a distressed asset price. Then they can lease the new pool of gold to the bullion banks and let the price float again, allowing the bankster buddies to  privatize the profits. Again.

Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 17, 2013, 11:31:34 AM
Haniel,
Well said. In the meantime expect the bullion dealers to invent higher "premiums" over spot so they can pretend the price is still "low" of spot. That $3.50 an ounce "premium" on silver is a scam. :evil4: At $23.25 and ounce that's a 15% mark up! If they did the same thing to gold at $1375 and ounce they would have to claim a "premium" of $206! I wouldn't put it past them with current actual demand on physical.
 
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: agelbert on April 17, 2013, 01:59:32 PM
Weird new silver play out starting today. Looks a bit risky. :P

Quote
Credit Suisse's Silver Shares Covered Call ETN (SLVO) with annual fee of 0.65%. The fund is long silver (through the SLV), but forgoes monthly gains in the metal greater than 6%, instead generating income by selling out-of-the-money calls in SLV

http://www.indexuniverse.com/hot-topics/16500-credit-suisse-launches-silver-etn.html (http://www.indexuniverse.com/hot-topics/16500-credit-suisse-launches-silver-etn.html)

I don't see any downside protection but I do see Credit Suisse's grubby hands out grabbing a fee!  :evil4: :emthdown:

By the way, they've got one gold too called GLDI.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: US Mint Sells Record 63,500 Ounces Of Gold In One Day
Post by: g on April 18, 2013, 03:22:34 AM
One of the more curious revelations of the New Normal is the fundamental dichotomy when investing between paper "investors", or those who chase returns based on intangible, fiat-based and central bank-backed promises, such as capital appreciation or cash flow streams, and those who would rather convert their paper money into hard assets, even if said assets can not be, in the immortal words of Warren Buffett, fondled, or otherwise generate a cash-based return. Such as gold.

Today provides perhaps the perfect example of how the former increasingly trade on nothing but momentum and speculative mania (such as the previously reported record inflow [6]of foreign capital into the Japanese stock market well after the bulk of the easy upside has already been made and at this point there is mostly downside) and where buying begets only more buying, while rampant selling only leads to liquidations, while those who invest in hard assets (and thus have little to no leverage) have become the true value investors, purchasing more as the price of the underlying asset drops. Yes, a novel concept to most High Frequency Trading vacuum tubes, and the momentum-chasing, equity trading "expert" du jour, but nothing new to Indians [7], Australians [8], Chinese [9]or the Japanese [10].

And apparently to at least some Americans.

According to today's data from the US Mint [11], a record 63,500 ounces, or a whopping 2 tons, of gold were reported sold on April 17th alone, bringing the total sales for the month to a whopping 147,000 ounces or more than the previous two months combined with just half of the month gone.

Punchline number one, as the chart below shows, is that the more the price of gold fell, the more aggressive the purchases of physical gold through the Mint became, rising to 96,500 oz in the last two days alone. Buying more of something you want when the price drops: what a stunning concept - explain that to the algos who nearly crashed the German stock market overnight [12].

Punchline number two, of course, is that the US mint charges a hefty premium for purchases: much more so than traditional vendors like Apmex or Gainesville Coins, and is usually the last resort for when nobody else has any physical at a lower premium to spot (or any metal in inventory).

So how long until the US mint "runs out" of American Eagles and Buffaloes in inventory, along with the depletion of all other precious metal vendors? And what happens if the price of paper gold hits zero (or goes negative) courtesy of bank and financial institution liquidation selling of paper derivative contracts nebulously referencing some yellow metal somewhere, even as suddenly there is no physical to be delivered to anyone, anywhere?

Inquiring minds really want to know.


                                                [Limit reached]             

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-17/us-mint-sells-record-63500-ounces-gold-one-day (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-17/us-mint-sells-record-63500-ounces-gold-one-day)  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: China's Gold Rush as Prices Drop
Post by: g on April 18, 2013, 04:02:13 AM
Gold, once considered a sure-fire investment, has seen a massive price drop, following disappointing growth figures from China. Monday saw a $125 dollar per ounce drop—the largest daily drop in history. But while people in the States and Europe have been rushing to sell of their gold before prices further drop, in China, gold couldn’t be hotter.
According to reports coming out of Shanghai and Hong Kong, people are flocking to jewelry shops, not to sell, but to buy gold, with some shops selling out of their gold stock in one or two days. Apparently the lower prices are making some think it’s the perfect opportunity to buy that gold ring they always wanted.
 
That’s good news for business in Hong Kong that were bracing for a big hit after some investment banks predicted gold prices could fall as low as $1,200 per ounce, the lowest since 2010. But the influx of customers from the Mainland has seen business booming, and at least for now, all that glitters is gold.

http://ntdtv.org/en/news/china/2013-04-16/china-s-gold-rush-as-prices-drop.html (http://ntdtv.org/en/news/china/2013-04-16/china-s-gold-rush-as-prices-drop.html) Video included in article  :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: Petty Tyrant on April 18, 2013, 06:26:59 AM
There you go, 444 and 445 above prove my point that the gold bugs world is totally different from paper gold investors. If there is anywhere other than a jewellery shop you can buy without leaving ID, it wont be long before you can no longer. You will have to wait, which means leaving your details, which means they may confiscate haircut it.
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News: Paper Gold Crash Unleashed An Unprecedented Demand
Post by: g on April 21, 2013, 05:58:42 AM
10 Signs The Paper Gold Crash Unleashed An Unprecedented Demand For Physical Gold And Silver

Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog [14],

The crash of the price of paper gold on Monday has unleashed an unprecedented global frenzy to buy physical gold and silver.  All over the planet, people are recognizing that this is a unique opportunity to be able to acquire large amounts of gold and silver at a bargain price.  So precious metals dealers now find themselves being overwhelmed with orders in the United States, in Canada, in Europe and over in Asia.

Will this massive run on physical gold and silver soon lead to widespread shortages of those metals?  Instead of frightening people away from gold and silver, the takedown of paper gold [15] seems to have had just the opposite effect.  People just can't seem to get enough physical gold and silver right now.  Those that wish that they had gotten into gold when it was less than $1400 an ounce are able to do so now, and it is absolutely insane that silver is sitting at about $23 an ounce.  If the big banks continue to play games with the price of gold, we are going to see existing supplies of physical gold and silver dry up very quickly.

And once reports of physical shortages of gold and silver become widespread, it is going to absolutely rock the financial world.  But this is what happens when you manipulate free markets - it often has unintended consequences far beyond anything that you ever imagined.

The following are 10 signs that the takedown of paper gold has unleashed an unprecedented global run on physical gold and silver...

#1 [16] According to Zero Hedge [17], the U.S. Mint set a new all-time record for the number of gold ounces sold on Wednesday...

    According to today's data from the US Mint [18], a record 63,500 ounces, or a whopping 2 tons, of gold were reported sold on April 17th alone, bringing the total sales for the month to a whopping 147,000 ounces or more than the previous two months combined with just half of the month gone.

#2 [19] Precious metals dealers all over the United States are having a really hard time keeping up with demand right now.  According to Chris Martenson [20], many are warning customers to expect waiting times of five to six weeks at this point...

    In the U.S., all of the dealers I talk to are reporting huge demand and brisk buying. Silver in any form is quite hard to come by unless you want to pay premiums of 20%+ per ounce above spot price. Delivery times are 5 to 6 weeks out now – that's an unusual situation.  If this recent slam was designed to scare people away from gold, it did not have that desired outcome; in fact, just the opposite.

Link to rest of article. A Must read for those interested in Gold and Silver Markets

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-20/10-signs-paper-gold-crash-unleashed-unprecedented-demand-physical-gold-and-silver (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-20/10-signs-paper-gold-crash-unleashed-unprecedented-demand-physical-gold-and-silver)  :icon_study: :icon_study: :icon_study:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 21, 2013, 07:52:27 AM
The latest pearls of wisdom and measurement from the imbeciles that manage our system of Fiat, pure bull shit for the sheeple.  :-[

What costs goes up in real life decreases expenses according to government calculations.

The newest flimflam in town is the recent suggestion of an alteration to the CPI index. This suggestion assumes that if for instance the price of beef goes up you will buy a cheaper meat. I imagine if that cheaper meats goes up in price you will eat spam or cat food. This way if any inflation takes place you ignore it and substitute a cheaper similar item. We now will have a CPI (Consumer Price Index) index that goes down when prices go up. I love the magic wand of government that makes inflation into lower price canceling it all out.

Bureau of Labor Statistics’ (BLS) CPI-W Index, measuring prices for urban wage earners and clerical workers. The idea behind the CPI-W adjustment is that since urban wage earners and clerical workers have constrained incomes, they will shop in a thrifty manner, similar to retirees.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: monsta666 on April 21, 2013, 02:54:47 PM
Where is the gold?

An interesting documentary that should interest all gold bugs (and more) especially in light of the recent price manipulations of gold/silver.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4wgbpGF9kT0&fs=1

http://www.youtube.com/v/5OEMBzbINBI&fs=1

http://www.youtube.com/v/hZzlz8GlX-c&fs=1
Title: Re: Gold & Silver News
Post by: g on April 21, 2013, 11:01:40 PM