Doomstead Diner Newz Channels => Knarfs Knewz => Topic started by: knarf on June 23, 2015, 09:41:57 AM

Title: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 23, 2015, 09:41:57 AM
(http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/33e02b1b3267d0e9d36fa6a1a616a0a4c2b8b253/578_402_943_566/943.jpg)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/23/nikki-haley-remove-confederate-flag-courageous-just-politics?CMP=ema_565 (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/23/nikki-haley-remove-confederate-flag-courageous-just-politics?CMP=ema_565)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 23, 2015, 02:35:15 PM
I just finished having an unsatisfying argument with my wife over this...let me see if I can re-group....

Okay, for starters, Jeb Lund is an ignorant asshole. Just like about ten other journalists I've read in the past couple of day who try to reduce the significance of the US Civil War to one sentence containing the word slavery.

What this article is...is Politically Correct. As is removing the Confederate Flag from any place it still exists, like eBay, which announced in true PC fashion that it would no longer sell anything displaying the Stars and Bars. Big fucking woop.

I already went on record as saying I thought the Rebel Colors should come down off the SC Statehouse, and that I thought people who go around waving it are morons.....BUT....those who are clamoring for its removal are dead wrong if they think it's going to do jack to eliminate the pervasive racism that exists in this country. Racism is rampant, on both side of the white/black divide, and it isn't about to do anything but get worse, as  far as I can see.

And most of the institutionalized attempts to legislate it out of existence are miserable failures.

And on the Civil War:

 It might have started out to be about slavery (which I agree was abhorrent) , but the real downside of the war was that it turned a loose conglomeration of semi-autonomous states into a country with the kind of repressive top-down centralized government we have now, which, in my book, is a crying shame.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 23, 2015, 03:56:52 PM
(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/rFWzvCr8eurpPTPs46CoO3F_qTs=/37x0:2082x1363/755x504/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46577920/GettyImages-51964826.0.0.jpg)

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/20/8818093/confederate-flag-south-carolina-charleston-shooting (http://www.vox.com/2015/6/20/8818093/confederate-flag-south-carolina-charleston-shooting)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 23, 2015, 04:00:21 PM
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2015/06/Confederate_Monument/lead_960.jpg?GE2DGNJQGM2TCNBTFYYA====)

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 23, 2015, 04:03:05 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery# (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery#)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 23, 2015, 05:14:27 PM
The Civil War, for most people in it, was about getting blown up...for low wages. The Union paid 13 bucks a month, to whites. They paid blacks 7 dollars a month, for most of the war.

Confederates were supposed to get $11, but they mostly went unpaid.

The American Civil War still holds the record for the bloodiest war in American history. The aftermath was a shit sandwich the south was forced to eat....that lasted until 1877.

(http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/cost-of-war/casualties-by-war.jpg)

A lot of really good books have been written about that war....what caused it, what the war ultimately meant in the long term for the country.

I just object to bad articles written mostly by ignorant fools who know little history, but who are masters of emotionally charged yellow journalism. Piss on them.

They understand little about how much the war hurt this country permanently and irrevocably, nor do they care. Furthermore they do nothing to bring people together.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 23, 2015, 06:05:55 PM
I just object to bad articles written mostly by ignorant fools who know little history, but who are masters of emotionally charged yellow journalism. Piss on them.

They understand little about how much the war hurt this country permanently and irrevocably, nor do they care. Furthermore they do nothing to bring people together.

Tom Lewis is the Civil War KING.

He was Chairman of the Civil War Society.

Editor and Publisher 1988-1993 of  Civil War Magazine and Chairman of the Civil War Society.

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Surly1 on June 24, 2015, 02:05:25 AM
Quote
It might have started out to be about slavery (which I agree was abhorrent) , but the real downside of the war was that it turned a loose conglomeration of semi-autonomous states into a country with the kind of repressive top-down centralized government we have now, which, in my book, is a crying shame.

It sure is Doc. A repressive monster that is totally out of control.  :'(

You might find Morris Berman's thoughts on this subject useful. He addresses it in depth in Why America Failed.

The Subjugation of the South by the North
(https://riversong.wordpress.com/civil-war-the-conquest-of-agrarianism-by-industrialism/)
From Why America Failed: The Roots of Imperial Decline

His analysis is one of the most honest and insightful analyses of the nature of that fratricide that I have found to date (and of the American myth that was reinforced in its wake).
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Surly1 on June 24, 2015, 03:32:27 AM
I just finished having an unsatisfying argument with my wife over this...let me see if I can re-group....

Okay, for starters, Jeb Lund is an ignorant asshole. Just like about ten other journalists I've read in the past couple of day who try to reduce the significance of the US Civil War to one sentence containing the word slavery.

Eddie, let me quibble with you a little over this.
First, Lund's is an opinion piece. It is largely about blowing away the illusion that Nikki Haley took an active political courage; it's more about the political opportunism that her actions and speech represents:

Quote
Those two implications to Haley’s speech would be offensive if it really were a message of healing for the black community of South Carolina, but it’s not. It’s a message of healing for the Running for President as a Republican community. Nikki Haley has announced that she wants the legislature to take down this flag, and now it will try to do that, meandering through politicking and procedure, giving the most needful of all Americans – especially those running for president as Republicans, and who once happily took the money of the racists who support flying said flag – the succor of not having to answer the question, “Would you take down the Confederate flag if you were the Governor of South Carolina?” with anything more than, “Well, I’m pleased to say I don’t have to answer that, and that issue is in the hands of the folks from South Carolina.”

 The first person to die defending the removal of the American flag and its replacement by a rebel one, Elmer Ellsworth, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_E._Ellsworth) did so in an Alexandria, Virginia hotel in a stairwell.   By that time, Virginia had just ratified its articles of secession, and Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor had been bombarded. As you know, Ellsworth was the first of over 600,000 die in that war.

Also let's not forget that South Carolina is and has been the East Coast distributor for domestic terrorism since 1861.  They seceded, bombarded Fort Sumter, which was the casus belli that triggered the Civil War.


What this article is...is Politically Correct. As is removing the Confederate Flag from any place it still exists, like eBay, which announced in true PC fashion that it would no longer sell anything displaying the Stars and Bars. Big fucking woop.

I already went on record as saying I thought the Rebel Colors should come down off the SC Statehouse, and that I thought people who go around waving it are morons.....BUT....those who are clamoring for its removal are dead wrong if they think it's going to do jack to eliminate the pervasive racism that exists in this country. Racism is rampant, on both side of the white/black divide, and it isn't about to do anything but get worse, as  far as I can see.

I think there IS a "big fucking woop" to give.  Just like words, symbols matter.  And the Confederate battle flag, as displayed in the South Carolina Statehouse, in the back windows of broken down pickups and their bumper stickers across the South, and in certain redneck bars makes a statement that is unambiguous and clear. As far as I'm concerned, is the symbol of treason, and should've been outlawed over 100 years ago.

The truth is that the union won the Civil War, but lost the peace. And the South has been studiously remanufacturing the narrative about a romantic "lost cause" for decades. You know well tat Andrew Johnson,  Trying to remain faithful to Lincoln's policies, enacted some aspects of a "soft peace" for the Confederacy and was vigorously opposed by "radical Republicans" who wanted firmer and more punishing policies and more civil rights for blacks. That last piece would wait 100 years.  In fact, they impeached Johnson for his trouble.

Grant was elected in 1868 and his attempts to reconcile Southerners with the Union and to quash the rising Ku Klux Klan were undercut by postwar greed and corruption during his two terms, to say nothing of carpetbaggery and rank opportunism.  Ultimately, the federal government abandoned attempts to reconstruct the South in the Compromise of 1877 when federal troops were withdrawn from the South in exchange for the election of Rutherford B. Hayes to the Presidency. At the end of reconstruction, although they were free, southern Blacks had gained little or nothing.

 You could well make the case that  more punitive policies, including more treason trials for the secessionists,  banning of their symbols, and more affirmative help for blacks might have changed the story. But it's probably impossible from our remove to imagine the amount of war weariness in the souls of people then alive who had seen the carnage, smelled the blood, and lived the losses.  They probably asked, as we have, "can't we all just get along?"  And the answer was no.

Now about that flag:

The Stars and Bars was the national flag of the confederacy, and showed at various times seven to thirteen stars:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Confederate_%27Stars_and_Bars%27_Flag%2C_captured_at_Columbia%2C_South_Carolina_-_Wisconsin_Veterans_Museum_-_DSC02996.JPG/1920px-Confederate_%27Stars_and_Bars%27_Flag%2C_captured_at_Columbia%2C_South_Carolina_-_Wisconsin_Veterans_Museum_-_DSC02996.JPG)

WT Thompson desighed the second flag, called "The Stainless banner:"
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281863-1865%29.svg/330px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281863-1865%29.svg.png)

Quote
As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.
—William T. Thompson (May 4, 1863)

The final flag, adopted in March 1865 was supposedly called "The Blood Stained Emblem:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281865%29.svg/330px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281865%29.svg.png)

My point is that this flag:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Battle_flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America.svg/330px-Battle_flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America.svg.png)
is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia,  but most consider that flag to be the Confederate flag and rally to it for a variety of reasons.

From wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America):

The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.[42]
Southern historian Gordon Rhea further wrote in 2011 that:
It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the negro is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?

And on the Civil War:

 It might have started out to be about slavery (which I agree was abhorrent) , but the real downside of the war was that it turned a loose conglomeration of semi-autonomous states into a country with the kind of repressive top-down centralized government we have now, which, in my book, is a crying shame.

Agreed about repressive top down government. Not to mention the primacy and enshrinement of corporations. My understanding  is that the origins of the Civil War were never about slavery, at least from Lincoln's point of view. His objective was to keep the union together, whatever the costs.  Many observers, with whom I agree, think that the Civil War was "baked into the cake" in our founding documents, and the various legislative compromises which ensued afterwards. It was inevitable that conflict would arise in a country divided by slavery.

As Samuel Johnson famously observed during the contest for independence by American colonists:

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"

Then as now, ironies abound.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: g on June 24, 2015, 03:55:00 AM
I'm with Eddie on this one.

It's 2015 not 1860. Much ado about nothing.

Besides " Old Black Joe is Still Pickin Cotton " Everybody Knows.

Banishing pieces of history and burning books will not solve anything.


                                                         http://www.youtube.com/v/Lin-a2lTelg


                                                   
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 24, 2015, 04:46:55 AM
As far as I'm concerned, is the symbol of treason, and should've been outlawed over 100 years ago.

So do your duty, boys, and join with pride
Serve your country in her suicide
Find the flags, so you can wave goodbye
But just before the end even treason might be worth a try
This country is too young to die


Phil Ochs, The War is Over

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZOs9xYUjY4I

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 24, 2015, 06:13:45 AM
My point is that this flag is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia,  but most consider that flag to be the Confederate flag and rally to it for a variety of reasons.

I actually was aware of that bit of trivia, although its been a long while since I read about it. I think "Stars and Bars", although not technically correct, has become part of the vernacular, and most southerners think of the battle flag of N. Va. when I use the term.

Like I said, I'm in favor of getting rid of the flag as any part of modern day representation of government. It certainly is a powerful symbol, and i do agree that, to many people at least, it represents white supremacy.

My problem with the press is that everything being written is very much about making sure everybody lines up behind the politically correct POV, and I also get chapped that this subject is being dragged into the limelight again now, as if the flag caused those poor people to be shot. It didn't, and the Big Hoopla is just more Bread and Circuses.

And thanks for the Berman link. I'm reading it now.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 24, 2015, 06:37:06 AM
You could well make the case that  more punitive policies, including more treason trials for the secessionists,  banning of their symbols, and more affirmative help for blacks might have changed the story. But it's probably impossible from our remove to imagine the amount of war weariness in the souls of people then alive who had seen the carnage, smelled the blood, and lived the losses.  They probably asked, as we have, "can't we all just get along?"  And the answer was no.


The problem is that you can win on the battlefield, but if you don't win the hearts and minds of the defeated people, they just go back home and perpetuate the same attitudes and POV they had before...and they concentrate themselves geographically in areas where they think alike.

My own mother's family came to Texas from SC after the war, because there was nothing left for them there, from what I know of their story. So did many other ex-Confederates, and some of them regrouped in certain places to form tight little racist communities that are still racist today. It really hasn't been that long, for a long generation family like ours. My wife's grandfather was born in 1867. My own grandfather had a Civil War cannonball he used for a doorstop.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 24, 2015, 07:58:28 AM
(https://riversong.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/sharecroppers-1942.jpg?w=647&h=524)
Sharecroppers in 1942 Lived Like Slaves in 1860

I liked the Berman piece, and agree with it pretty much completely. It clearly points out the nuances about the war that have been forgotten or ignored.

However, as Berman pointed out, echoing Horace Greeley, the war did more to turn southern whites into slaves than it did to elevate the former slaves themselves to any sort of decent life.

My own maternal grandfather was a sharecropper, and died one, in 1930. Here is a piece about his death I recently found posted on the site of the local cemetery where he's interred, by some unknown relative of mine. I never knew him or my grandmother either. The downside of that long generation thing.

From family tradition, Corbett made a crop at Noonday in the spring and summer of 1930. That fall Corbett worked at a sawmill and planer mill on the Big Eddy River while the three oldest children (Tillman, Walter, and Roy) picked cotton on the land at Noonday that Corbett worked as a sharecropper. The day Corbett died, the misting rain made it impossible to plane lumber at the sawmill. To pass the time, Corbett and some of the other men working at the sawmill went squirrel hunting. Corbett's dog treed a squirrel, which ran into his hole in the tree. In order to get the squirrel, the men cut down the tree. Corbett was standing near the tree when it hit a small sapling which fell on his head, killing him instantly.
 


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=43182307 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=43182307)



Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 24, 2015, 09:27:09 AM
(http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2015/06/24/the-klan-s-vile-post-charleston-recruiting-spree/jcr:content/image.crop.800.500.jpg/1435144074291.cached.jpg)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/24/the-klan-s-vile-post-charleston-recruiting-spree.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/24/the-klan-s-vile-post-charleston-recruiting-spree.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 24, 2015, 02:42:07 PM
(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_908w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2015-06-15/AP/Germany_Nazi_Indoctrination-0d37d.jpg&w=1484)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/06/24/how-germanys-ban-of-the-nazi-swastika-echoes-in-the-battle-over-the-confederate-flag/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/06/24/how-germanys-ban-of-the-nazi-swastika-echoes-in-the-battle-over-the-confederate-flag/)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 24, 2015, 02:43:49 PM
http://recode.net/2015/06/23/google-shopping-pulls-confederate-flags-following-amazon-ebay/ (http://recode.net/2015/06/23/google-shopping-pulls-confederate-flags-following-amazon-ebay/)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 24, 2015, 03:07:53 PM
(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_908w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2015-06-15/AP/Germany_Nazi_Indoctrination-0d37d.jpg&w=1484)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/06/24/how-germanys-ban-of-the-nazi-swastika-echoes-in-the-battle-over-the-confederate-flag/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/06/24/how-germanys-ban-of-the-nazi-swastika-echoes-in-the-battle-over-the-confederate-flag/)

if so then all of these symbols should be next.......

(https://j3140f14.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/gmo-companies-and-subsidaries.jpg)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 24, 2015, 11:37:22 PM

if so then all of these symbols should be next.......

(https://j3140f14.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/gmo-companies-and-subsidaries.jpg)

How about this symbol?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/US_flag_48_stars.svg/220px-US_flag_48_stars.svg.png)

I don't see why the Confederate Flag is any worse than the Union Flag.  The Union Flag is the Flag of Industrialization and Fascism.  It symbolizes when the Oligarchy took full control of the FSoA Goobermint.  They fought the bloodiest war in Amerikan history to achieve that goal.  Well, they didn't fight it, but they did run the show and profit from it.

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 12:13:52 AM
What's next?  Will they take all the Dukes of Hazzard episodes off You Tube?

RE

Iconic Dukes of Hazzard Car 'General Lee' Stripped Of Confederate Flag: "This Is A New Level Of P.C. Idiocy" (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-24/iconic-dukes-hazzard-car-general-lee-stripped-confederate-flag-new-level-pc-idiocy)

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 06/24/2015 23:00 -0400

    South Carolina

Submitted by Mac Slavo via SHTFPlan.com,

(http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/general-lee-1.jpg)

They’ve been pushing for it for over 150 years and this year the politically correct anti-Confederate flag movement may have finally achieved its ultimate goal. Following a racially driven shooting spree that left nine people dead at a church in Charleston, the governor of South Carolina is pushing legislation to have the flag removed at any government buildings where it currently flies. In Alabama, the governor has ordered Confederate flag “paraphernalia” removed from the Confederate Memorial Monument.

Major retailers like Amazon, Ebay, and Walmart immediately jumped on board and have now removed confederate flags from their listings. Paul Joseph Watson highlights the sheer ridiculousness of the move, noting that while Amazon has removed memorabilia featuring the flag of the Confederacy, they continue to allow the sale of items featuring Nazi emblems and Swastikas.

But the idiocy, based on absolutely no logical reasoning except that this is the perfect crisis to not let go to waste, doesn’t stop there.

Warner Bros. has announced that it has halted production of toys and replicas of the iconic Dukes of Hazzard sports car known as the General Lee.

Dukes of Hazzard, a staple TV show of the early 1980’s, featured what may possibly be the most popular and most recognizable car in American history.

As of today, that car will no longer feature the confederate flag on its roof.

    The Confederate flag may or may not be removed from government buildings in South Carolina, but the relic is definitely being removed from at least one southern icon. Warner Bros. today announced that it was halting production of toys and replicas of the General Lee, the car from the Dukes of Hazzard, which famously bore the flag on its roof.

     

    ...

     

    As recently as 2012 Warner Bros. quashed rumors that it was planning to remove the Confederate flag from toy versions of the General Lee. “We were not and are not planning to change design of the General Lee on merchandise,” the company said at the time, after a Tomy sales representative reportedly indicated production would cease in 2013.

Ben Jones, who played good ‘ol boy Cooter on the show and had a crush on leading lady Daisy Duke, responded to the removal of the flag, echoing the general sentiment of many Americans who find the move by major retailers and political leaders to be overkill:

    Some unnamed genius at the company feels that the flag is ‘offensive to some’ and therefore it has no business on a classic TV comedy about a bunch of good ol’ boys and girls in the Southern mountains

     

    This is a new level of ‘P.C.’ idiocy. I don’t know about you, but I am tired of being insulted by morons.
(http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/general-lee-cooter.jpg)
Cooter (far right) poses with Bo Duke, Luke Duke and The General Lee

We’re sure that the next crisis will lead to the complete removal of any references to the South’s involvement in the Civil War, including the removal of the very name of the vehicle, The General Lee, named after the man who led the South’s armies against the north.

No proposed names have yet been put forth, but some politically correct replacements may include:

    The General Grant
    The General Sharpton
    The General Obama
    and, since the iconic car may now openly identify as being more feminine than masculine, The General Pelosi has kind of a ring to it.

Listen to The General Lee’s racially divisive Dixie Horn before it gets removed from the internet forever:

http://www.youtube.com/v/zAKksqKR3pI
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 12:22:57 AM
I split off the Confederate Flag controversy to its own thread on the Knarf's Knewz forum.

I also made Knarf Moderator of this forum so he can do this himself with popular threads that pop up in the main Knarf's Knews Channel.

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Petty Tyrant on June 25, 2015, 01:51:01 AM
I was thinking about the dukes of hazzard car and its flag the other day reading all this flag controversy, but didnt think anyone would go that far.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Petty Tyrant on June 25, 2015, 02:14:04 AM
But if u want shamefully stupid its hard to beat cutting down trees and burning them to meet targets for renewable energy, now with bipartisan backing.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/tasmanian-liberal-and-labor-parties-welcome-ret-legislation/6571160 (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/tasmanian-liberal-and-labor-parties-welcome-ret-legislation/6571160)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 25, 2015, 08:47:24 AM
Will banishing the Confederate flag actually increase its power?

(https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/head_ap110709149196.jpg?w=1600)

http://qz.com/435156/will-banning-the-confederate-flag-actually-increase-its-power/ (http://qz.com/435156/will-banning-the-confederate-flag-actually-increase-its-power/)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 25, 2015, 08:52:37 AM
Calls to Drop Confederate Emblems Spread Nationwide

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/06/24/us/Charleston/Charleston-master675.jpg)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/us/south-carolina-nikki-haley-confederate-flag.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/us/south-carolina-nikki-haley-confederate-flag.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: MattS on June 25, 2015, 08:57:27 AM

And on the Civil War:

 It might have started out to be about slavery (which I agree was abhorrent) , but the real downside of the war was that it turned a loose conglomeration of semi-autonomous states into a country with the kind of repressive top-down centralized government we have now, which, in my book, is a crying shame.

I wonder if the average African American would think differently?

Although nowadays it might not even be relevant, they could just proclaim themselves white?

(http://www.democracynow.org/images/story/20/27520/splash/Rachel-Dolezal-NAACP-Spokane-Young-Now-1.jpg?201506091909)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 25, 2015, 09:34:26 AM
I wonder if the average African American would think differently?

I know damn good and well the average African-American feels differently, as do most of the average liberal-minded Caucasian  folks in the country, including a few  who post here. That's fine. It doesn't erase any facts, however.

My intention in posting what I post, and in stating my own opinions here is not to foment arguments or to shout down anyone else's POV.  I just believe that the prevailing narratives we have about the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln, and the effects of the Civil War, are largely a fairy tale. Something akin to George Washington and the cherry tree.

 A nice story with a good moral that happens to just not be true.

Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 09:55:31 AM
IMHO, this is media fueled distraction.

The Confederate Flag has been floating around down in Dixie basically continuously since the Civil War, and it's sure not the cause of racism, nor will removing it anywhere remove racism from those places.

If anything what this will do is make the Flag MORE popular amongst the Crackers, and if Walmart won't sell them, then a whole Cottage industry will develop with Billy Jo and Bobby Sue sewing them up on the Singer.  I Guarantee you, there will be an explosion of Southern Belles wearing Confederate Flag Halter Tops and Bikinis this summer on the beaches of South Carolina.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/191183703079-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)

Of course, everybody needs a Flag to rally around, so we should design Flags for the Diner and for SUN.  I'm gonna work on that now.

RE
Title: New SUN Flag
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 10:14:20 AM
Preliminary Design for the SUN  :icon_sunny: Flag.

sun flag
sun flag

RE
Title: SUN Flag 2
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 10:39:38 AM
sun flag 2
sun flag 2
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: MKing on June 25, 2015, 10:41:36 AM
Will banishing the Confederate flag actually increase its power?


Absolutely.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: MKing on June 25, 2015, 10:52:41 AM
I wonder if the average African American would think differently?

I know damn good and well the average African-American feels differently, as do most of the average liberal-minded Caucasian  folks in the country, including a few  who post here. That's fine. It doesn't erase any facts, however.

A little sensitive to being part of the pasty white elite this morning Eddie? Don't sweat it, this entire Dolezal thing has more of the few of us crackers thinking about changing our race designation to collect better job opportunities in this affirmative action world. TPTB wouldn't change reverse discrimination, but we can with some tanning and a hair do!!


Quote from: Eddie
My intention in posting what I post, and in stating my own opinions here is not to foment arguments or to shout down anyone else's POV.  I just believe that the prevailing narratives we have about the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln, and the effects of the Civil War, are largely a fairy tale. Something akin to George Washington and the cherry tree.

 A nice story with a good moral that happens to just not be true.

The Civil War is easy. It was all about basic economics, and to some extent the same kind of Luddite based fears that are still with us today.
Title: SUN Flag 3
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 10:53:06 AM
This one is more Geometric.

The Yellow Circle represents the SUN.

The Brown Hexagon represents the EARTH.

The Blue Field represents WATER.

The Green Bars represent LIVING THINGS.

sun flag 3
sun flag 3

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: MKing on June 25, 2015, 11:09:43 AM
IMHO, this is media fueled distraction.

You betcha. If folks started to pay attention to other bills of goods they are being sold, they might revolt!!

(http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c017d3fdd3e93970c-pi)

Quote from: RE
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/191183703079-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)

This just deserves to stay in..well…because.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Diner Flag
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 11:15:18 AM
I don't have to design the Diner Flag.

It's already been done.

(http://shakescocktailbar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/pirate-skull-cross-sabres-flag-3294-p.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 25, 2015, 11:22:03 AM
(http://www.ruffinflagcompany.net/images/products/rebel/rebel%20join%20flag%20md.jpg)

This flag symbolizes overcoming racism through adaptation of sustainable hemp farming.

 Also known in some circles as the racist pothead flag.
Title: Apple Pulls All Civil War Games From The App Store
Post by: RE on June 25, 2015, 12:28:39 PM
This is getting plain stupid now.

RE

Apple Pulls All Civil War Games From The App Store (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-25/apple-pulls-all-civil-war-games-app-store)

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 06/25/2015 12:38 -0400

    Apple Google None

We have been following the Confederate flag scandal with bemused detachment, painfully aware for what it is: i) a welcome distraction from the real and very profound problems this country faces and ii) the latest escalation in what has been a relentless attempt to polarize the nation over the past several years, only instead of political ideology, gender, sexual preference, ethnic background, and most certainly wealth, this time the emphasis is on geographic origin and an implied relapse to the days of latent the pre-civil war "racism."

And yet while most such scandals fizzle quickly after the have heat their peak only to be replaced with the next day's watercooler talk as the following projection by Google trends predicts...

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/06/confed%20flag%20google%20trends_0.jpg)

... this particular snafu is showing a particular determination to stay at the front pages. What is more surprising, is the apparent willingness of countless third parties, from the media, to retailers, to pundits, to keep this topic front and center in the public's consciousness.

To an extent all of that was expected. However, even we were stunned when we learned moments ago that none other than that ultimate "arbiter" on all things moral and ethical, Apple itself, entered the fray with a decision to remove all Civil War games from its App Store!

According to MacRumors, "Apple has removed seemingly all Civil War games from the App Store for displaying the Confederate Flag in "offensive and mean-spirited ways," our sister website TouchArcade has learned. Apple has sent a removal letter to affected developers to inform them that their app does not comply with Section 19.1 of the App Store Review Guidelines."

    "19.1 Apps containing references or commentary about a religious, cultural or ethnic group that are defamatory, offensive, mean-spirited or likely to expose the targeted group to harm or violence will be rejected."

MacRumors further adds that it did do a spot check of the App Store and can confirm that Apple has removed dozens of Civil War games depicting the Confederate Flag. Most educational or generic Civil War apps remain available on the App Store.

A sampling of the Civil War games removed from the App Store:

    Ultimate General: Gettysburg
    AAA American Civil War Cannon Shooter
    Civil War: Hidden Mysteries
    Civil War The Battle Game
    Civil War Defense
    Civil War Battle Defense
    1861 A Civil War Rebellion
    Civil War: 1862
    Civil War: 1863

Which begs the question: is the Confederate Flag scandal reaching beyond the ethical implications of last week's Charleston shooting and is it actively become an attempt to rewrite a "shameful" period of US history?

What's next: Amazon "censors" chapters on the US Civil War from history textbooks?

And just why are tech companies getting involved in what is, at its core, a political issue and by implication, censoring free expression and limiting the revenues of those hard working programmers who created the above listed games?

Finally, where does such selective "pre-screening" of what is deemed appropriate for public consumption end and who makes that determination? Because at last check every single nation that imposed such a "filter" to its own history no longer exists.

And in light of this dangerous revisionism, it makes us wonder if the correct term no longer "politically correct" but "political correction"?

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/06/Civil-War-App-Store-Game-800x600_0.jpg)

h/t TheUberGuy
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: g on June 25, 2015, 01:54:55 PM
Quote
This is getting plain stupid now.

RE

Apple Pulls All Civil War Games From The App Store

"Monkey See Monkey Do."

The dim have their new cause for the week.

Next are all history books, movies, confederate money, the song Dixie, southern accents etc.

The enlightened wonderful citizens of our democracy, doing good and feeling good as their freedoms, privacy, press are taken from them by their wonderful loving war mongering spying government.  :-\

TPTB must be roaring; rolling around the floors in wild uncontrollable belly laughter, guffawing with tears of joy at not being so afflicted.


Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Petty Tyrant on June 25, 2015, 02:07:57 PM
Objectively u could say the cross is a far more offensive symbol ans should also be banned. It doesnt matter if it symbolizes jesus death and resurrection to some If it also means the white mans colonization of all indiginous people and the kkk to the expat blacks.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: g on June 25, 2015, 03:03:15 PM
Quote
This is getting plain stupid now.

RE

Apple Pulls All Civil War Games From The App Store

"Monkey See Monkey Do."

The dim have their new cause for the week.

Next are all history books, movies, confederate money, the song Dixie, southern accents etc.

The enlightened wonderful citizens of our democracy, doing good and feeling good as their freedoms, privacy, press are taken from them by their wonderful loving war mongering spying government.  :-\

TPTB must be roaring; rolling around the floors in wild uncontrollable belly laughter, guffawing with tears of joy at not being so afflicted.

Let's not forget the wonderful American Icon, Apple, censoring material.

American as Apple Pie the Dear Corp is. :laugh:

Claims To be Irish and hides a couple of hundred billion in Ireland from US Taxation.

Manufactures her wonderful products with built in spyware for NSA.

Puts the Gooks to work in her wonderful loving factories with nets around the periphery to catch the jumpers.

Has a loving CEO that praises God publicly for making him Gay and so special a person than the ordinary hetro folk.

Yes, Good old Apple, looking out for our welfare, no more Confederate games or apps.

No Shame, No Fucking Shame at all, not one iota.

                                (http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4e8b062deab8ea6f5f000005-1200/apple-ceo-tim-cook-can-be-found-in-the-gym-by-5-am.jpg)

 http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2013/05/21/apple-cook-faces-senate-questions-on-taxes/us-politics-tax-it-apple (http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2013/05/21/apple-cook-faces-senate-questions-on-taxes/us-politics-tax-it-apple)  :icon_study: :icon_study: :exp-laugh: :exp-laugh:  ::)

Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: agelbert on June 25, 2015, 03:09:48 PM
Objectively u could say the cross is a far more offensive symbol ans should also be banned. It doesnt matter if it symbolizes jesus death and resurrection to some If it also means the white mans colonization of all indiginous people and the kkk to the expat blacks.

Good point!  :emthup:

Quote
This is getting plain stupid now.

RE

Apple Pulls All Civil War Games From The App Store

"Monkey See Monkey Do."

The dim have their new cause for the week.

Next are all history books, movies, confederate money, the song Dixie, southern accents etc.

The enlightened wonderful citizens of our democracy, doing good and feeling good as their freedoms, privacy, press are taken from them by their wonderful loving war mongering spying government.  :-\

TPTB must be roaring; rolling around the floors in wild uncontrollable belly laughter, guffawing with tears of joy at not being so afflicted.




Of course. The swastika was stolen by the NAZIs and made into a symbol that got equated to all the evil the NAZIs visited on the world in general and European Jews in particular. The swastika wasn't the problem; Empathy Deficit Disorder was (and still is) the problem. TPTB don't want to go there, of course.  :evil4:

Nevertheless, we cannot forget the giant finger to the civil rights movement that South Carolina making their state flag be the stars and bars, NOT in 1861, but in 1961, symbolized.

Like the NAZI flag, the stars and bars is a symbol of bigotry and the Empathy Deficit Disorder evil that afflicts human societies.

I agree with you that demonizing a symbol won't do much to reduce Empathy Deficit Disorder in humans. I disagree with you that it will do nothing. It is not a meaningless gesture. Just as South Carolina making their flag the stars and bars in 1961 was NOT a meaningless gesture, demonizing that flag also has meaning.

The ASSHOLES that voted to make the stars and bars the flag of South Carolina didn't do it to be nice. You KNOW THAT! Don't pretend you don't. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif)

Several months ago I ranted and raved about how the cops were racist, bigoted and so on. Ashvin and "others" here challenged that with all sorts of amazingly convoluted bits of hair splitting logic that has subsequently been proven false.

The bottom line is that our society has a SICK (EDD) pecking order. This is wrong. This is destroying us. Your points about TPTB getting off on divide and conquer tactics are valid. But TPTB DID NOTHING to address the destructive EDD status quo the stars and bars stands for until they HAD TOO! Yes, they are trying to get out in front of this and look good (see murdering MLK Jr. and then making a statue for him a half century later  :evil4: ) but it needed to be done.    (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif)

To the demonization of the stars and bars, I say:

(http://prints.encore-editions.com/grey77/8/6/500/any-port-in-a-storm-greeting-card.jpg)
Any Port in the EDD storm

Quote
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." -- Aldous Huxley

Quote
"Technical knowledge of Carrying Capacity will not save us; only a massive increase in Caring Capacity will." -- A. G. Gelbert





Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 26, 2015, 02:54:00 AM
The Libertarians are getting fired up over this one!

RE

CNN Reporter Stunned As Young Black Man Defends Confederate Flag (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-25/cnn-reporter-stunned-young-black-man-defends-confederate-flag)

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 06/25/2015 19:30 -0400

    Department of Justice South Carolina Twitter Twitter
 

Submitted by Mike Krieger via Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

(http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-25-at-11.44.34-AM-1024x536.jpg)

Divide and conquer has been the most successful strategy used by humans to attain and maintain power since ancient times. The concept is simple and effective in that those being ruled are too busy fighting amongst themselves to be capable of taking a step back and seeing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that they are being intentionally played.

This strategy is being quite effectively employed by the American oligarchy against the American population. While racism and associated violence certainly still exist, as we recently saw in the South Carolina tragedy, this remains a marginal issue compared to the relentless, systemic and daily oligarch oppression against hundreds of millions of people. The issue of the 0.01% versus the 99.99% is almost never covered or hyped on mainstream media, while issues of “sexism” and “racism” are covered and exploited incessantly. Why is that? It’s divide and conquer stupid.

Naturally, the American plebs must be kept distracted and consumed by issues that, while important, pale in comparison to the major issue of our time: The financial oppression of everyone by a handful of oligarchs and their servants in Congress. Nothing will change as long as we continue to fight amongst ourselves for the diminishing scraps of a shrinking pie and remain incapable of seeing the true problem. The status quo understands this and leverages it more than anyone wishes to admit.

I’ve found that the saying: “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled,” is 100% true. People who are ignorant really are ignorant. They don’t get it, and they don’t want to get it. Only a serious shock, often financial hardship, can get people to question the false paradigms they have accepted for years if not their entire lives. This is why I don’t expect real change to kick in until the next economic downturn arrives.

Before I share a video of the very eloquent, introspective and brave Bryan Thomas, I want to make a few things clear. Personally, I find the Confederate Flag to be offensive. You can’t deny that to many people it elicits painful images of slavery and oppression. Personally, I don’t like looking at the flag and I wouldn’t want it around me. But this is my personal preference and perspective. If someone else wants to fly it because it means something about southern pride, racial bias, or whatever else, that is their right. The flag is a free speech issue. People have a right to offend me or anyone else. All that said, I do think whether or not it flies on state capitols is a fair and necessary debate.

However, is it the most existential issue facing American society today? Of course not. After all, we have a black President who has systematically funneled as much money as possible to the most entrenched wealthy elites in America, and has governed as if his top priority was a seamless continuation of the George W. Bush administration. If that doesn’t prove to you that symbols don’t really mean much in big picture, I don’t know what will. Symbols are just that, symbols.

As I quipped on Twitter yesterday:

Now watch the CNN interview. Whether or not you agree with his opinion, we should all agree to defend his right to have an opinion, and to do whatever he wants with a piece of colored cloth.
 

I believe this hype about the flag is just another attempt by the status quo to attack free speech in a crafty manner. Similar to the recent attack on blog comment sections, which I wrote about in the recent post:

The War on Free Speech – U.S. Department of Justice Subpoenas Reason.com Over Comment Section
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Eddie on June 26, 2015, 06:59:36 AM
Before I share a video of the very eloquent, introspective and brave Bryan Thomas, I want to make a few things clear. Personally, I find the Confederate Flag to be offensive. You can’t deny that to many people it elicits painful images of slavery and oppression. Personally, I don’t like looking at the flag and I wouldn’t want it around me. But this is my personal preference and perspective. If someone else wants to fly it because it means something about southern pride, racial bias, or whatever else, that is their right. The flag is a free speech issue. People have a right to offend me or anyone else. All that said, I do think whether or not it flies on state capitols is a fair and necessary debate.

Gotta make the disclaimer, or you're a racist, for sure.

Haven't watched the video because I'm at work, but did you know that in the 1890 census, that there were still about 4000 people self-reporting as black Confederate veterans and widows? My guess is that those guys were fighting for something other than the preservation of slavery.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: knarf on June 27, 2015, 09:47:09 AM
Group to parade Confederate flags down State Road 60

(https://mgtvwfla.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/fullsizerender.jpg?w=600)
A rally organizer says people will drive from Brandon to Tampa on Friday to support the Confederate flag.

"You can ban it. You can take it away, but at the end of day, you can’t take our belief away,” the event organizer says.

HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FL (WFLA) — As controversy continues to surround the Confederate flag, a group is planning a rally around the stars and bars on the streets of Hillsborough County Friday night.

William Pew is organizing Friday’s “Drive for Pride” event. He claims the group is not promoting hatred, rather Southern heritage and the First Amendment. “You can ban it. You can take it away, but at the end of day, you can’t take our belief away,” Pew said.

Civil rights leaders wish the group would rethink the rally. “Driving around with rebel flags at a moment right now, where that flag is so completely soaked in blood, is indefensible,” said Nadine Smith with Equality Florida.

Pew claims at least one-hundred drivers will deck out their vehicles with Confederate flags and drive along State Road 60 from Brandon to Tampa Friday starting at 7 p.m.

http://wfla.com/2015/06/26/group-to-parade-confederate-flags-down-state-road-60/ (http://wfla.com/2015/06/26/group-to-parade-confederate-flags-down-state-road-60/)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 27, 2015, 10:27:29 AM
Group to parade Confederate flags down State Road 60

I have a Flag article ready for Sunday Brunch.

It is THE definitive article on the Flag controversy.

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: luciddreams on June 27, 2015, 02:36:25 PM
I saw a dude on a Harely drive by the SUN headquarters today with a massive confederate flag flying in the petroleum powered breeze. 

I think the whole issue is stupid.  I've read Berman's Why America Failed.  I've read the entire trilogy. 

What does any of that have to do with now, in 2015, when everything from the global economy to the environment is collapsing?  The country needs to have it's panties in a wad about issues that happened 150 years ago?  SC flying that flag on the state building is bullshit now...it's been bullshit for a long time.  What are we proud of in the south?  We're proud that we fought the union 150 years ago and lost?  What, all those rednecks aren't proud to be an American?  I'm 35 and I'm supposed to be bitter about the civil war because I live in the south and the south lost?  I don't even know if I have relatives that fought in the war, but I'm sure I do, as does everybody else.  So what? 

This is a non-issue that's being used to fulfill the circus part of the bread and circus.  It's distraction from the fact that our global economy is about to implode and our climate is fucked and getting more fucked by the day.  I'm glad they took that racist flag down, because at this point, although the war was not about slavery, it is now, and all those white racist bigoted fucks know it.  How many of those white southern pride fellas do you think aren't racist?  You think they aren't telling nigger jokes when it's just them and their white friends drinkin' beer? 

I really want to know what you're proud of when you fly the confederate flag?  A flag is something you fly because you are proud of it.  So what are all these white fucks in the south proud of with that flag?  Why aren't there any black people flying that flag in their yard or on the back of their Harley?  Putting a token pro-confederate flag black guy on the news does not count either.  I can find you plenty of self hating white people...so what. 

This is a non-issue being used as a distraction.  Albeit a very powerful one, which is why they are pulling that card now.  If anything this is just more proof that this shit's hitting the fan.  I was raised in the south, but I'm from California...so maybe I just don't have the gene to understand this bullshit.  Whatever the case, it's about fuckin' time that flag came down. 
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: RE on June 27, 2015, 03:04:10 PM
I think my Flag post for Sunday Brunch will resolve this question definitively once and for all.

RE
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: agelbert on June 27, 2015, 03:55:06 PM
LD said,
Quote
Whatever the case, it's about fuckin' time that flag came down.

(http://cliparts.co/cliparts/Big/Egq/BigEgqBMT.png)

As to the relation to bread and circus that this sort of "crumbs from the elite table for the downtrodden" represents, of course. It definitely is a symptom of a collapsing empire. Empires with unquestioned power (see the English Empire) are KNOWN for their in your face cruel pecking order along with a host of intellectual lackeys that will write about the "white man's burden" in order to glorify and entrench this Empathy Deficit Disordered bullshit in "holy profit" tradition. BUT, when the empire begins to fray, the masses are thrown a few crumbs because the elite are afraid of them.

The NEXT PHASE is that the downtrodden quickly figure out that the elite have NO INTENTION of changing their mens rea modus operandi, have NOT turned over a new leaf, and are weaker than before.

THAT is when REAL change begins. Unfortunately, it won't be progressive or pretty. We are almost there.

Star Date 344,757.093821 (late naked ape tool makers date 2066): Gardener Commander Zarkploof Report 747. (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/climate-change/apocalyptic-humor/msg3030/#msg3030)
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Petty Tyrant on June 27, 2015, 04:04:39 PM
I think my Flag post for Sunday Brunch will resolve this question definitively once and for all.

RE

but u said come summer girls will be wearing flag t shirts. they should be required to remove them because racist,  regardless.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: agelbert on June 27, 2015, 05:41:13 PM
UB,
Those Australian winters must be kind of long. You seem to be climbing walls for some beach action.  :evil4:    (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4fvfcja.gif)


(http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/shutterstock_101803237.jpg)
Second Confederate Flag

Quote
According to "William T. Thompson of Savannah, the creator of the second Confederate flag, the emblem he devised would be "hailed by the civilized world as the white man's flag." As rediscovered by Jonathan Wilson, history professor at Syracuse University, Thompson declared in explaining his design, "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race." (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9HT4xZyDmh4/TOHhxzA0wLI/AAAAAAAAEUk/oeHDS2cfxWQ/s200/Smiley_Angel_Wings_Halo.jpg)  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-devil12.gif)


The Confederate Flag Stars and Bars Deconstructed (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png)
 (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-280515145049.png)


SNIPPETS:

Flags first emerged in human history as banners of war. They would convey allegiances of battle combatants and provide a standard under which wavering or scattered troops could rally.

The earliest flags were simple colors, until the introduction of commonly understood icons to convey meaning. The flag of Denmark, for example, one of the oldest national flags in Europe, prominently features a cross in white on a red background, a Christian symbol.

Given how many Europeans nations share a common Christian heritage, Dannebrog, meaning "the flag of the Danes" or "the red flag," isn't the only national banner to incorporate the cross. Switzerland, Norway, Finland and others European countries include it as well into their own designs.

The Saltire

The Confederate flag incorporates a variation on the cross in its design. Known as the saltire, the diagonal cross represents the crucifixion of St. Andrew, who insisted to his Roman executioners he was unworthy of the same death as Jesus Christ. The apostle is the patron saint of Scotland, which is why the cross is used on the Scottish national flag.

(http://img13.deviantart.net/1acc/i/2009/011/2/e/scotland_grungy_flag_by_think0.jpg)
Scottish Flag

The Confederate flag deliberately takes its cue from the Scottish flag, owing to the Scottish background of many Southerners in 19th-century America. In this one regard, the flag does carry echoes of a religious and cultural heritage, but there's more to the story.


(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-270615195255.jpeg)
Original Confederate Flag

Stars

In addition to the saltire, the Confederate battle flag also contains 13 stars in its modern incarnation.

The original Confederate national flag, seen here, similarly incorporated stars into its design. It began with seven, each one representing the original Confederate states: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas. As new states joined the Confederacy, more stars were added. The stars in other words are a token of membership to a rebel nation that no longer exists.


(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-270615195336.jpeg)
Did the Klu Klux Klan employ the Stars and Bars as a symbol of Southern pride, history and heritage? I DON'T THINK SO.

The Real Meaning

Stars and Bars boosters typically claim the flag is a symbol of Southern pride, history and heritage. Nothing contained within the flag itself necessarily discounts that argument.

However, flags don't just appear out of nowhere (except for maybe the Danish flag). These banners have designers. According to William T. Thompson of Savannah, the creator of the second Confederate flag seen here, the emblem he devised would be "hailed by the civilized world as the white man's flag." As rediscovered by Jonathan Wilson, history professor at Syracuse University, Thompson declared in explaining his design, "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race."

Those words reveal the flag's racist origins -- and why the Ku Klux Klan employed it as a symbol, and why Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself with the banner to identify with the white supremacy movement.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000370273/polls_Smiley_Angry_256x256_3451_356175_answer_4_xlarge.png)


Full article here:
http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/confederate-flag-stars-and-bars-deconstructed-150626.htm (http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/confederate-flag-stars-and-bars-deconstructed-150626.htm)

Agelbert NOTE: Despite the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE of what the confederate flag is REALLY ALL ABOUT, you will continue to have folks that claim that Germans who want to fly the swastika Southerners who want to fly the Stars and Bars are just doing it for pride, history and heritage...

UH HUH, SURE.
Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: luciddreams on June 27, 2015, 05:48:13 PM
I think my Flag post for Sunday Brunch will resolve this question definitively once and for all.

RE

but u said come summer girls will be wearing flag t shirts. they should be required to remove them because racist,  regardless.

Shit, they don't have to remove them.  Let the racist ass peckers have their freedom of speech.  All it shows is how retarded they are...no offense to the actual retarded.  Dem's some nice titties...they just be attached to a dumb ass bigot.  So what?  Let's not forget about the other issue they're finally throwing out there now...homosexuals can now get married (which i have no problem with...all you need is love and what not).  Why now?  The Romans were corn hollin' each other in tents after the days battle was over...that's an empire that's already come and gone.  Now...finally gays can get married.  Why now? 

Cause the games over.  Time to bring out the for real bread and circus.  Let us eat fried corn batter stuffed with cream cheese and jalapeno salt and watch the tiger drone the browns while we fight about a stupid ass obsolete flag and push each other's shit in.  It means freedom of speech!!!  You know what, in a room somewhere in North Korea, in hushed whispers, they still have opinions and they find a way to voice them. 

Title: Re: The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has
Post by: Petty Tyrant on June 27, 2015, 07:44:07 PM
I agree for most  people gay marriage and the flag are distraction issues  because  we don't care. It was cfs to take it down from the capitol straight  after a massacre where the killer used i, but the dukes of hazzard charger.. statues and graves of generals? 

Its not  just a distraction to the great grandsons of slaves or whites living in proud of the past. Gay marriage also really matters to assbandits and homophobes.