Doomstead Diner Menu => Economics => Topic started by: RE on September 29, 2012, 07:26:11 PM

Title: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on September 29, 2012, 07:26:11 PM
From Tyler over on Zero Hedge.

Bullish for sure. BTFD.  Gold, Bitchez!

RE

The Next Subprime Crisis Is Here: Over $120 Billion In Federal Student Loans In Default (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-09-28/next-subprime-crisis-here-over-120-billion-federal-student-loans-default)
 
(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg) (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden)
Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden) on 09/28/2012 20:52 -0400
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: widgeon on September 30, 2012, 05:10:56 AM
This student loan situation is the most egregious violation of the citizenry by TPTB.  The system is set up to entice naive & believing young people into outrageous loans before they even know what they've done.  Also, whereas before loans covered pretty much only tuition, housing (on campus), etc. now yoiu can get enough to actually live a lower middle class existence - as long as the loans keep coming.

I'm read some, but am certain, that there are many 50 & 60 year olds that are "going back to school" for the sole purpose of getting access to the student loan system where they can get $20k or so living expenses as long as they are signed-up for a couple classes.  This is another case where the "soup-lines" are hidden.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: g on September 30, 2012, 05:57:32 AM
This student loan situation is the most egregious violation of the citizenry by TPTB.  The system is set up to entice naive & believing young people into outrageous loans before they even know what they've done.  Also, whereas before loans covered pretty much only tuition, housing (on campus), etc. now yoiu can get enough to actually live a lower middle class existence - as long as the loans keep coming.

I'm read some, but am certain, that there are many 50 & 60 year olds that are "going back to school" for the sole purpose of getting access to the student loan system where they can get $20k or so living expenses as long as they are signed-up for a couple classes.  This is another case where the "soup-lines" are hidden.

It was the most horrific crime of the banksters to date widgeon.

If ever a group of loans should be totally forgiven it is these. They conned impressionable young trusting kids into slavery for life with the school teachers and colleges accomplices in their hateful crime of lies and phony promises.

If a thirty year old has to have something now and goes into hock with clearly published rates of interest on his credit card, Frig him. Could care less what they do to him with their usury, just another ass hole that couldn't save up to buy it. A sixteen year old kid listening to his parents, teachers, and guidance councilors as this being the proper way to make it in the world is truly a national shame and disgrace.

What a way to build a strong democracy, everyone starting out adulthood with the bankster's chains wrapped around their neck.               :exp-cry: :exp-angry: :exp-cry: :exp-angry:
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: widgeon on October 01, 2012, 02:36:30 PM
Here are a couple successful debtors trying to get out from their pile.

http://newsok.com/oklahomas-1st-congressional-district-candidates-have-large-student-loan-debts/article/3714700 (http://newsok.com/oklahomas-1st-congressional-district-candidates-have-large-student-loan-debts/article/3714700)

The "democrat" has over $100k in loans and an income $36k ... disaster.

The 'conservative' "republican" (and his wife) have over $350k in loans and $111k in income.

Title: Blanket Student Debt Amnesty Now
Post by: RE on April 19, 2016, 10:49:07 PM
We haven't chatted this monster up in a while.

RE

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/18/blanket-student-debt-amnesty-now/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/18/blanket-student-debt-amnesty-now/)

April 18, 2016
Blanket Student Debt Amnesty Now

by Mike Whitney

(http://uziiw38pmyg1ai60732c4011.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/dropzone/2016/04/shutterstock_241241671.jpg)

A couple weeks ago the Wall Street Journal confirmed our worst fears about the student loan program, that is, that it was going to blow up in the government’s face just like all the other gigantic debt-bubbles that preceded it. For the sake of background, here’s a brief excerpt from the article that will bring readers up-to-date:

    “More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.

    The new figures represent the fallout of a decadelong borrowing boom as record numbers of students enrolled in trade schools, universities and graduate schools.

    While most have since left school and joined the workforce, 43% of the roughly 22 million Americans with federal student loans weren’t making payments as of Jan. 1, according to a quarterly snapshot of the Education Department’s $1.2 trillion student-loan portfolio.” (More Than 40% of Student Borrowers Aren’t Making Payments, Wall Street Journal)

While it all sounds very shocking, the real eye-popper was buried deep in the text where it was most likely to be ignored. Here it is:

    “Carlo Salerno, an economist who studies higher education and has consulted for the private student-lending industry, noted that the government imposes virtually no credit checks on borrowers, requires no cosigners and doesn’t screen people for their preparedness for college-level course work. “On what planet does a financing vehicle with those kinds of terms and those kinds of performance metrics make sense,” he said.” (WSJ)

Let’s see if I got this right: The Fed, government regulators and the entire political establishment looked the other way while the mortgage industry cranked out trillions of dollars of “toxic” subprime liar’s loans that Wall Street bundled into garbage bonds that wound up blowing up the entire global financial system and plunging the world into a severe recession from which we still haven’t recovered. Then, a couple years later,  they start pumping up another lethal trillion-dollar credit bubble, this time comprised of equally toxic “student liar’s loans”?

Is that what they’re saying?

That’s it, alright. This is why there should be blanket amnesty for all the student debt generated in the last decade. It’s because the whole thing was another filthy credit-swindle from the get go.

And let’s be honest; it’s not the government lenders who were scammed in this deal, it’s the students. They’re the victims, in the same way that the applicants, who borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars for mortgages they could never repay, were the victims. The lender is ALWAYS responsible when a loan that goes belly up.  ALWAYS.  Because it’s their freaking job to figure out who can pay and who can’t. Period. That’s all they do, lend money. And they’re pretty damn good at it too, when they actually expect to get repaid, which in this case, they don’t. That’s why we know it’s a scam.

So now we’re supposed to believe that no one could have foreseen this trainwreck ahead of time. Is that it? Is that what Obama and the media and the rest of the crooked financial establishment want us to believe; that no one could known that 40 percent of the borrowers were going to ‘stiff’ the government?

Baloney. The handwriting was on the wall from the very beginning. Take a look at this interview I did with professor Alan Nasser in 2011.

    M Whitney–Is it fair to say that the student loan industry is a scam that targets borrowers who will never be able to repay their debts?

    Alan Nasser—It’s as fair as fair can be. First, the student loan industry is huge – a large majority of students from every type of school are in debt. Debt is held by 62 percent of students enrolled at public colleges and universities, 72 percent at private non-profit schools and 96 percent at private, for-profit (“proprietary”) schools. It was announced last summer that total student loan debt, at $830 billion, now exceeds total US credit card debt, which is itself bloated to the bubble level of $827 billion. And student loan debt is growing at the rate of $90 billion a year. So we’re not talking small change.

    How many of these students are subprime borrowers? That is, how closely do student loans resemble junk mortgages? The answer hinges on three factors: how these loans are rated, how likely the borrower is to repay, and the default rate on student loans.

    …the Department’s Inspector General Office employed a more realistic method in its 2003 audit, which calculated lifetime risk. It estimated that over their lifetime between 19 and 31 percent of college freshmen and sophomores would default on their loans… For community college students, the prospects were grimmer still: between 30 and 42 percent were expected to default. And the future was most discouraging for students at for-profits: between 38 and 51 percent were anticipated to default. You can see that the default rate among student borrowers is expected to be higher than that for subprime home mortgages.” (The Student Loan Swindle, CounterPunch)

Repeat: “between 38 and 51 percent were anticipated to default” … “Higher than subprime mortgages.”

Bottom line: The shysters who issued these roadside bombs knew from the beginning that a high percentage of them were going to blow up. What more proof do you need that the whole thing is crookeder then hell?  And this interview was conducted back in 2011, which means that these credit chiselers knew what they were doing from the very beginning. The Obama-Fed-Wall Street cabal wanted to inflate another massive credit bubble so the thieving lenders could skim heftier profits while Obama crowed about his great economic recovery. That’s what it’s all about. And they didn’t care that gullible college kids were being drawn-and-quartered so they could make more dough either.

What kind of country is this anyway, where the government deliberately bamboozles its kids about the “value of a good education” just so they can extort as much money as possible from them in the future?

Here’s Nasser again:

    “Alan Collinge of StudentLoanJustice.org has shown that the Department of Education makes more on defaulted loans than it does on loans in good stead. Washington has just as much an interest in encouraging student loan defaults as do, for example, collection companies, which obviously live off defaults.”

“Cha-ching!” That’s the happy sound of your predatory government fleecing your children.

It’s outrageous!

Of course the private lenders make even more than the government does because they’ve developed a whole system for extracting as much wealth as possible from their unwitting victims. No surprise there. Private lenders always get their pound of flesh and then-some.

So here’s a question for you: Why do you think Congress passed legislation making it impossible to discharge student loan debt through bankruptcy just months before the surge of student lending began? Do you think it was all just a big coincidence?

Give me a break! This thing has “setup” written all over it. Congress knew what they were doing.  They knew they were part of  a big sting operation targeting credulous students who never guessed that their government was just a bunch of lousy shakedown artists.  And now congress can pat themselves on the back for a job well done, for luring millions of millennials into a lifetime of indentured servitude. That’s quite an accomplishment, don’t you think?

Hurrah, for Congress! The scumbags.

Here’s Alan Nasser again:

    “Because Congress chose to withhold key consumer protections from student borrowers …the latter are virtually forced to enroll in “loan rehabilitation” programs. The borrower is subject to a form of extortion, whereby (s)he essentially buys her way out of allegedly more severe penalties with payments that are rarely applied to principal or interest on the defaulted loan. These outlays are in effect the price of access to a substitute loan, accompanied of course by additional fees. The new loan is typically larger than the defaulted one…

    The fee system is at the heart of the private lenders’ affection for default. It gives to loan guarantors the same kind of interest in default that is so obvious in the case of collection companies. Collinge has analyzed IRS filings of guarantors of federal student loans. It turns out that guaranty agencies average about 60 percent of their income from fees alone. If the default rate declines, so do the fees and income of the guarantors.” (CounterPunch)

Get the picture? So the worse it gets for the students, the better it gets for the lenders. Students get a lifetime of drowning in red ink, and lenders get a nice fat bonus of 60 percent off the top. Nice, eh?

Don’t you love America?

Let’s cut to the chase: Students have been defrauded on a massive scale by the credit Mafia, the brotherhood of crooks (Gov and private) whose only goal in life is to suck as much blood as humanly possible out of their victims and then move on to the next. That’s how the game is played.

The only way to defeat this cadres of racketeers is to stop paying. That’s it. No more money for you.

We’re not talking about lower rates, or partial relief or a temporary debt moratorium. Oh, no. We’re not looking for any namby-pamby, half-loaf “loser” solution.  We’re talking about total, blanket student debt amnesty. Wipe the slate clean. End the debt now.

And if it crashes the US Treasury, well, good riddance.
Join the debate on Facebook

MIKE WHITNEY lives in Washington state. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press). Hopeless is also available in a Kindle edition. He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: MKing on April 20, 2016, 06:20:05 AM
I don't buy the conspiratorial intent angle expressed above, Congress knew what it was doing, screwing over folks for fun and profit. But sitting here with a daughter headed off to college in 4 months, I can see the traps being set for the average parent of the normal kid heading off to college. There is actually a limit to what an undergraduate can borrow in the federal guaranteed system, a limit that skyrockets for graduate work and would appear to be the main vehicle for accumulating far more debt than is reasonable for a college kid. And as I have noted during my hiring participation, those with just undergraduate degrees can't even make the cut in the job environment where I need PhD's and Master degree folks to even have a fair chance of finding someone who can think...although to be honest a month or three back we acquired a young lady who appears to be doing very well, and she only has a Bachelors in Math, and is working on her Masters in Stats.

Anyway, the real trap appears to be for the parents. THEY are the ones being encouraged to borrow without limit for their children, and this is a real issue because it preys upon the parents degree of buy in to the "American dream", your kids doing better than yourself, so you had better borrow borrow borrow to make it happen! A crock in many ways, as ultimately it is still borrowing, and borrowing for a college education is in my opinion a better thing than even tangible assets...but it still carries risk, with no backup plan should the risk go bad.

And you can bet that the day comes when Bernie's ideas work out, that it will be the STUDENT'S debt that gets erased/forgiven/handled, but NOT the parents.

However, at a range of 4 months this is all visible. And amusing, in one case my daughter called and asked if she had qualified for a particular scholarship, and they said no she hadn't gotten that one, but they were happy to tell her about this $6G award she HAD received.   She looks around at her package, and the only thing that matches that description is the federal guaranteed loan. She says "that isn't a award, it is a loan!" and they say "oh no, not everyone gets these, it is an AWARD and it is all for YOU!".

So not even the student is dumb enough to fall for some of what they are selling, except of course, plenty are.
Title: 💸 U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166 Billion
Post by: RE on February 18, 2019, 01:12:40 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-16/u-s-student-debt-in-serious-delinquency-tops-166-billion?srnd=premium (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-16/u-s-student-debt-in-serious-delinquency-tops-166-billion?srnd=premium)

U.S. Student Debt in ‘Serious Delinquency’ Tops $166 Billion
By Alexandre Tanzi
February 16, 2019, 5:01 AM AKST

    Amount in arrears reaches a record high as college costs rise
    If the loans aren’t repaid, federal deficits also will rise

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i6eaNSjyV5AY/v1/1000x-1.jpg)

Law Professor Anita Hill Addresses Wesleyan Commencement Ceremony
Photographer: Eduardo Munoz Alvarez/Getty Images North America

Student-loan delinquencies surged last year, hitting consecutive records of $166.3 billion in the third quarter and $166.4 billion in the fourth.

Bloomberg calculated the dollar amounts from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s quarterly household-debt report, which includes only the total owed and the percentage delinquent at least 90 days or in default.

That percentage has remained around 11 percent since mid-2012, but the total increased to a record $1.46 trillion by December 2018, and unpaid student debt also rose to the highest ever.

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/idsK5y2qU3cc/v2/pidjEfPlU1QWZop3vfGKsrX.ke8XuWirGYh1PKgEw44kE/-1x-1.png)
U.S. student debt 90-days or more delinquent or in default

Delinquencies continued to climb even as the unemployment rate fell below 4 percent, suggesting the strong U.S. job market hasn’t generated enough wage growth to help some people manage their outstanding obligations.

Income levels for graduates “are not necessarily high enough for debt payments overall,” said Ira Jersey, Bloomberg Intelligence interest-rate strategist. “If you have a choice to pay your student loan or for food or housing, which do you choose?”

The delinquencies also have broader implications. Because most of the loans are government-sponsored, they probably won’t hurt the economy the way mortgage debt did in 2007, Jersey said. “But incrementally, it does mean higher federal deficits if the loans are not repaid.”

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iiWHvDrlSviE/v2/pidjEfPlU1QWZop3vfGKsrX.ke8XuWirGYh1PKgEw44kE/620x-1.png)
Record level of student debt shows little sign of slowing

The total in arrears is about twice the amount the U.S. Treasury provided to bail out the auto industry during the last recession.

Loans at least 90 days past due are considered to be in “serious delinquency.’’ The age group transitioning into this category at the fastest pace is 40-to-49 year olds; that’s partly because of parents borrowing to pay their children’s expenses.

Middle Age Pain

Most rapid transition to serious delinquency is among 40-49 year olds

Source: New York Fed Consumer Credit Panel/Equifax

The cost of higher education has roughly doubled in the past 20 years, and the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis recently posted a blog entry asking “Is College Still Worth It?’’ The answer was not a definitive yes. One of the conclusions: “In terms of wealth accumulation, college is not paying off for recent college graduates on average -- at least, not yet.’’

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iwRpE9SxfPqM/v2/pidjEfPlU1QWZop3vfGKsrX.ke8XuWirGYh1PKgEw44kE/620x-1.png)
Pace of increase in U.S. college costs was the lowest on record last year

Some schools have taken note, providing more support. The percentage increase in tuition at Cornell for the 2019-2020 academic year “is the lowest it has been in decades, and we are budgeting for a significant increase in financial aid,’’ the university said on Feb. 11. And 2019-2020 will be the seventh consecutive year Purdue University hasn’t boosted room and board rates.

Still, in-state tuition and fees at public four-year institutions rose at an average rate of 3.1 percent a year beyond inflation in the past decade, according to the College Board.
Title: 🎓 These five charts show how bad the student loan debt situation is
Post by: RE on April 25, 2019, 12:27:42 AM
Go to the link to view the charts.  They're interactive, don't paste well.

RE

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/student-loan-statistics-2019-n997836 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/student-loan-statistics-2019-n997836)

These five charts show how bad the student loan debt situation is

(https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2019_17/2831476/190423-student-loans-mc-14222_d41cc3e13f4f0bab9cd474ae95691ddd.fit-2000w.JPG)

Data Graphics
These five charts show how bad the student loan debt situation is
Elizabeth Warren just proposed canceling student loan debt for most debtors.
Image: Students walk through the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill North Carolina
Students walk through the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, North Carolina, U.S.Jonathan Drake / Reuters file
April 24, 2019, 2:00 AM AKDT
By Nigel Chiwaya

One in five adult Americans carry student loan debt. The issue returned to the headlines this week, when Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts proposed canceling this debt for more than 40 million Americans. Here's a look at the landscape.

As many as 44.7 million Americans have student loan debt, according to a 2018 report by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018 — more than credit cards or auto loans.

Most Americans with student debt are young. But adults 60 and older — who either struggled to pay off their own loans or took on debt for their children or grandchildren — are the fastest-growing age cohort among student loan borrowers.

Persis Yu, an attorney at the nonprofit National Consumer Law Center, said seniors are a sizable portion of the clients she sees. "The number of seniors with student loan debt has exploded," Yu said. "We're not just talking about kids and millennials. It impacts a large swath of our population."

More than three out of four borrowers owe less than $50,000. The Warren proposal would wipe out the first $50,000 of debt of anyone with a household income below $100,000 a year.

The average monthly student loan payment ranges from $200 to $300, according to a report from the Federal Reserve. Many borrowers struggle to repay their loans. The national default rate, a U.S. Department of Education measurement of the number of borrowers who start repayment, then default in the next two to three years, was 10.8 percent among those who started repayment in 2015, the most recent data available.

Experts say that borrowers with low balances are the most likely to default.

“A lot of it has to do with the level of education,” Yu said. “You may have taken out some debt to go to college but for whatever reason, you didn't finish. So you have the burden but you don't have the value of that credential to allow you to earn as much as you need.”

"We don't really have a student loan debt crisis. We have a college completion crisis," Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of SavingForCollege.com, said. "The people who drop out of college are the ones who are defaulting on their loans."
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Defaulting has serious consequences.

“Most of the borrowers we see are in default on their loans,” Yu said. “Most have never heard of income-based repayments. Their wages were garnished, their tax refunds were taken.”

For borrowers who can't afford to make their regular payment, the government offers payment plans that are tied to their household income. However, fewer than 20 percent of borrowers participate in these plans.

Yu, whose clients usually come to her after defaulting on loans, says income-based repayment plans help reduce defaults. But the process of enrolling is difficult, with paperwork that can get lost, renewal notices that aren't clear and requirements that vary from lender to lender.

"For a family on SNAP benefits, the bureaucratic nightmare of trying to get into an income-based repayment plan is not something they need," Yu said, referring to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program for low-income individuals and families.

Of the more than 1.3 million people who applied to an income-based repayment plan during the Department of Education’s 2018 fiscal year, almost three-quarters earned less than $100,000, making them eligible for the full amount of loan cancellation under the proposed Warren plan.

See more NBC News data graphics projects, including our report on the wealth tax and income inequality.
Nigel Chiwaya

Nigel Chiwaya is a data reporter for NBC News.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: K-Dog on April 25, 2019, 07:36:34 AM
Debt should not be cancelled but loan interest should be waved as long as regular payments are made of at least 15% of what a defaulted payment would have been.

KDog has spoken.

Quote
Income levels for graduates “are not necessarily high enough for debt payments overall,” said Ira Jersey, Bloomberg Intelligence interest-rate strategist. “If you have a choice to pay your student loan or for food or housing, which do you choose?”

This is always true.  It was true for me.  Eventually I paid my pittance of a loan  off in a lump sum when winds finally filled my sails.  If I was still in the doldrums I'd still owe.  I wound up paying triple what was originally borrowed.  My debt was never that big but is individual debt that big now?

Choices choices.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.VIvoQjoHT5gQ2vV3BugCqQHaDt%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fd1arsn5g9mfrlq.cloudfront.net%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fchrome_images%2Fnvd%2F2014%2F17856.jpg&f=1)

Weave that basket!



Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 25, 2019, 10:02:22 AM
The article is a very typical misrepresentation of the facts.

A lot of defaulters are (a) drop-outs who probably never belonged in college, or (b) people who went into debt for schools other than college....like some kind of scammy electronics school like DeVry or even Barber College (I know they don't call it that anymore).

A large percentage of the loans in default are small loans. They will mostly never get paid back. Very few loans taken out by people who end up as high earners go into default. The government is the bagholder already. The only thing forgiving loans does is to write off noncollectable debt.

 But hey, my son owes a lot, so by all means, write it off. But it probably won't happen, and he will bust his ass and pay it off. My daughter, who graduates with a masters next week, has already paid back half her loans.  My son-in-law got his paid in a couple of years. They're all musicians and artists.....not exactly big money earners.

The government should be roasted for soaking these kids in the first place..... with high interest loans that have made the banks richer than God. Since the mid-80's (about the time I graduated) it's been one of the most evil and unfair conduit schemes to ever occur here in the Land of the Not-So-Free.

Elizabeth Warren....she was in the Congress during most of this shameful period, so she doesn't get a pass from me.....although she generally voted in favor of the little guys, which is to her credit. Before she was in Congress she was a tenured professor, so she is part of the university faculty and admin generation that let our colleges go bananas on administrative growth and its associated costs, which is a big part of what has made college tuition so high.

So she is complicit there too. But in today's world she is what passes for one of the White Hats.

Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 25, 2019, 01:06:50 PM
A lot of defaulters are (a) drop-outs who probably never belonged in college, or (b) people who went into debt for schools other than college....like some kind of scammy electronics school like DeVry or even Barber College (I know they don't call it that anymore).

If they don't "belong" in college, where do they belong?  ???  :icon_scratch:  The jobs in manufacturing that paid HS grads a living wage are long since gone to lower paid labor in Mejico, China and India.  Even if you raised the minimum wage for Barristas and Burger-Flippers, how many of them do you really need?  Particularly since those jobs are being automated out of existence anyhow.  Not to mention of course, even at a min wage of $15/hr, you're not making enough money to buy a McMansion or an exploding Tesla either.  How do these folks afford to pay their dental bills?  Where do you get your clients?  If Medicare is going to pay for them all, your taxes need to go up to pay for that.

The problem here is one of economics of course, and indeed most of this is irredeemable debt.  However, that debt has been rehypothecated many times over, and if you write it all down it undermines the capital structure of all the banks that issued loans or bought securities based on that notional, never to be repaid money.  If you have Da Federal Goobermint take the loss, that dumps another $Trillion$ onto the national debt, again your taxes have to go up.

It's a Wicked Problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem).

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 25, 2019, 02:50:52 PM
It's not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be. It amounts to banks making bad loans because the government pledged to make them whole. Easy money.....high interest loan assets for the banks. They never had any incentive to vet the borrowers, and the government's policy of giving money to any idiot that could breathe, for any sort of stupid educational scam, made it impossible anyway.

They could have made low interest loans in the first place. That's why it's a conduit scheme. The government let the banks bilk the borrowers. This started under Reagan. I was still getting loans when it began. It even affected me.

The government is already making the banks whole, so the defaults are already being paid by the taxpayer.

The only thing an amnesty does is to wipe the credit reports clean for a bunch of people who will quite likely have a bad credit report again in fairly short order.

They lend money for fucking "cosmetology school". How many new cosmetology grads does the country need? Apparently a lot less than we're graduating. That's one of the big default groups.

Bread and circus.

Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 25, 2019, 03:18:37 PM
It's not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be.

I disagree.  Right now, Da Goobermint is only paying a fraction of the total indebtedness.  Most of the loans are still being carried on the books as NPAs. Writing down all that debt is a much bigger deal.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on April 25, 2019, 03:25:54 PM
It's not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be. It amounts to banks making bad loans because the government pledged to make them whole. Easy money.....high interest loan assets for the banks. They never had any incentive to vet the borrowers, and the government's policy of giving money to any idiot that could breathe, for any sort of stupid educational scam, made it impossible anyway.

They could have made low interest loans in the first place. That's why it's a conduit scheme. The government let the banks bilk the borrowers. This started under Reagan. I was still getting loans when it began. It even affected me.

The government is already making the banks whole, so the defaults are already being paid by the taxpayer.

The only thing an amnesty does is to wipe the credit reports clean for a bunch of people who will quite likely have a bad credit report again in fairly short order.

They lend money for fucking "cosmetology school". How many new cosmetology grads does the country need? Apparently a lot less than we're graduating. That's one of the big default groups.

Bread and circus.

You're leaving out one of the main culprits - college administrators who raise tuition and let all kinds of people in because they know the other culprits (government, banks) will make sure their institutions get paid, and then so do they. Most of the professors still get paid shit. They (administrators) are the ones who are supposed to have some responsibility for the students of their colleges, but instead they are giving them worthless educations and selling them into debt slavery.

Almost every client or potential client I have spoken with has outstanding student loans these days. There is some evidence that the bankruptcy rules for discharging these loans are getting a little more flexible in some jurisdictions, at least. I understand the moral hazards involved in that, but I have to agree with RE that unaffordable student loans is a huge problem and a huge weight on the economy and all manner of working people. Something needs to be done quickly.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 25, 2019, 05:02:09 PM
It's not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be.

I disagree.  Right now, Da Goobermint is only paying a fraction of the total indebtedness.  Most of the loans are still being carried on the books as NPAs. Writing down all that debt is a much bigger deal.

RE
Either way, people like me (that'd be the 56% of Americans who actually pay income tax) will be the ones paying the freight here. Amnesty doesn't change that. The fucking banks should have to eat some of it, but that is not about to happen. The for-profit "schools", mostly scams that don't deliver a useful skill set, should be put out of business.

There are several generalizations being made in the broader debate here that don't stand up to close scrutiny. One is that people who borrow money to go to college are going broke and can't pay. Bullshit. It's mostly not college graduates who are defaulting, and a large percentage of defaulters spent  their educational loans on training in areas that are known to not reliably provide a good living, by those who are handing out the money. Did I say the words conduit scheme?

Almost 1 in 3 people who owe less than $5,000 for their education default within four years, compared with just 15 percent of borrowers who owed more than $35,000, the Urban Institute found.

The issue of default appears to be more concentrated in neighborhoods of color.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/twenty-two-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-fall-into-default.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/twenty-two-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-fall-into-default.html)

We also find that the state’s for-profit higher education institutions are responsible for a disproportionate share of all student loan defaults after five years, with students attending for-profit schools defaulting at more than double the rate of public colleges.

 Although just 6 percent of all undergraduate students in New York attended for-profit schools during the period of our analysis, these schools accounted for 41 percent of all student loan defaults after five years.

https://nycfuture.org/research/for-profit-schools-driving-student-loan-default-in-new-york (https://nycfuture.org/research/for-profit-schools-driving-student-loan-default-in-new-york)



There is no doubt that people DO struggle to pay, but that has a lot to do with the fact that the loans are way above market rates and students have no power as consumers to shop for a good rate. It's all rigged. You borrow, you pay too much. It's been like that for a generation.

I still had student debts when I declared bankruptcy twenty odd years ago. But I didn't have to go bankrupt because of student debt. It was actually good for me, looking back, that the student debt was rolled into my Chapter 13, because I had to pay it off much sooner than I otherwise probably would have. (I paid all my creditors in full. In fact, I was never in arrears with any of my creditors other than the US government.)

I think it's interesting that the author used the term "sub-prime", because ALL student loans are high interest rip-offs now......there is no other kind of student loan, although we once had them....we had cheap loans for school at one time. But not since Reagan. Since then it's gotten progressively worse, as the banks lobbied congress successfully to let them legalize usury against people trying to pay for an increasingly expensive education.

Speaking of the sub-prime mortgage  crisis, it's very interesting that banks used EXACTLY the same tactics. You should read about what was called "reverse redlining".

Through a strange kind of logic – the sort that makes sense if you're a large bank at the height of the housing boom – high-income black households were actually the perfect customers for subprime loans. Black communities had long been ignored by banks, creating a void in the market for anyone pedaling these relatively new financial products. And subprime loans, while risky, were tremendously profitable (for the banks) when the homeowners didn't foreclose, thanks to their higher fees and interest rates.

Give a black family that could probably qualify for a prime loan a subprime one instead, and the lender likely wins.

In the wake of the housing crash (and even before), banks have been widely accused of doing just this, and the practice has even become the subject of some damning discrimination lawsuits. But here is some data on exactly how skewed things really were: In 2006, at the height of the boom, black and Hispanic families making more than $200,000 a year were more likely on average to be given a subprime loan than a white family making less than $30,000 a year.

Banks that once ignored minority communities were targeting them now to make money.
"To me, I see that information and I kind of scratch my head," says Jacob Faber, a PhD Candidate in New York University's Department of Sociology who uncovered that gaping disparity studying nationwide mortgage data from that period. One explanation suggests that minority borrowers, particularly those living in communities where bank branches had long refused to go, were simply not financially sophisticated enough to know these loans were wrong for them. "I’m thinking, so for this financial literacy argument to really work, we also have to say that incredibly wealthy blacks and Latinos are less financially savvy than arguably pretty poor white households."

That is probably not the full story here. In research that Faber recently presented at the annual meeting of the American Sociological Association, he analyzed Home Mortgage Disclosure Act data on 3,819,923 loan applications from 2006. About 1.5 million of them were denied. A little over 2 million were approved at a prime rate, and about 200,000 (or 5.4 percent) at a subprime rate.

Relative to comparable white applicants, and controlling for geographic factors, blacks were 2.8 times more likely to be denied for a loan, and Latinos were two times more likely. When they were approved, blacks and Latinos were 2.4 times more likely to receive a subprime loan than white applicants. The higher up the income ladder you compare white applicants and minorities, the wider this subprime disparity grows.

So what was going on here? Intentional malice? Perhaps lenders were convinced that minority borrowers even with high incomes would still pose greater risk over the life of mortgage?

"Certainly we can’t rule out personal bias on behalf of lenders," Faber says. But that's not all of it, either. "There’s a larger part of the story that the financial institutions responsible saw these profitable communities and targeted them specifically because they weren’t risky."

Over the sweep of history, this sounds ironic: Banks that once ignored minority communities were targeting them now to make money, a practice that's been bitterly referred to as "reverse-redlining." But Faber puts it another way: "I think it's tragic," he says. And this data offers another illustration that middle-class blacks have often not been able to leverage their income status for the same benefits as middle-class whites.

Faber was intentionally studying a slice of this mortgage data from the housing peak, when many of these practices were likely at their most pervasive.

"Some people might think that 2006 is a long time ago," he says. "But the consequences of these huge disparities in subprime lending – and then subsequent foreclosures – are going to have really powerful lasting impacts."

Individual families that have lost much of their wealth will struggle to pay for college or manage emergencies. Whole neighborhoods suffering from epidemics of foreclosures will suffer from declining property values and related problems. And even cities that have lost their tax base will struggle to fund schools and police and services. "We might not be able to measure that impact for another five, 10, 20 years," Faber says of this last group of implications. "We might now know what the fallout is."

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2013/08/blacks-really-were-targeted-bogus-loans-during-housing-boom/6559/ (https://www.citylab.com/equity/2013/08/blacks-really-were-targeted-bogus-loans-during-housing-boom/6559/)




Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 25, 2019, 05:05:48 PM

Either way, people like me (that'd be the 56% of Americans who actually pay income tax) will be the one's paying the freight here.

No, you won't.  It's irredeemable debt.  It can't be paid off by ANYONE.  When the losses get recognized, it crashes the monetary system.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 25, 2019, 05:09:44 PM

Either way, people like me (that'd be the 56% of Americans who actually pay income tax) will be the one's paying the freight here.

No, you won't.  It's irredeemable debt.  It can't be paid off by ANYONE.  When the losses get recognized, it crashes the monetary system.

RE

Except that theoretical problem can be extended and pretended until well after I'm dead. I'm paying for it NOW, btw.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: BuddyJ on April 25, 2019, 05:10:18 PM
A student loan is an investment in one's self. It follows the same rules as any other investment...do it wisely.

I imagine most borrowers don't think about it that way, and even if they do, they aren't objective as to the risk adjusted value of that investment.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 25, 2019, 05:34:44 PM

Except that theoretical problem can be extended and pretended until well after I'm dead. I'm paying for it NOW, btw.

Unlikely it can go that long.  That is what you hope for, because it means BAU continues and you can keep gambling on crypto.

In any case, you're not paying for it now.  What you are paying for now is the Big Ass Military and payouts to private insurance companies handling the med biz, along with medicare of course as well.  But without that, you woulldn't have any clients.  Or very few anyhow.

RE
Title: 🎓 Is student debt really a problem?
Post by: RE on April 26, 2019, 03:45:10 AM
https://qz.com/1603692/is-student-debt-really-a-problem/

Is student debt really a problem?
By Allison SchragerApril 25, 2019

(https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RTR3186L.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1600&h=900)

Student debt in the US is worth a whopping $1.5 trillion. Graduates are so burdened with debt, according to reports, that they aren’t buying homes or getting married. Even grandparents are burdened by student loans, having borrowed on their grandkids’ behalf.

It is no wonder, then, that US presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren has promised to wipe out student debt for three-quarters of all borrowers, as well as make public college free to attend. Her plan to forgive loans will cost more than $600 billion, on top of the cost of free college.

In a world of limited resources, it’s worth asking: is student debt really an urgent problem that’s weighing down the economy?
Why student loans are special

Student debt is special, but not because of its size. Americans have $1.3 trillion in auto loans, which is arguably a worse kind of debt than the education-related kind.

Education is an asset that appreciates over time. A degree often does not mean higher earnings right out of college, but graduates’ earnings tend to rise faster over the course of their lifetimes. If you are going to take a loan out to fund an investment, education is probably the best bet you can make. A car depreciates the second you drive it off the lot, and keeps falling in value. It could be argued that there’s an auto-loan crisis that’s nearly as big, and more dangerous.

Of course, student loans tend to be larger and more onerous than car loans. But the largest loans are usually held by people who went to graduate school, who tend to be higher earners. There is, in fact, a negative correlation between the size of a loan and the odds of default. The average loan balance of someone in default is $15,000, compared with an average balance of $26,000 for the typical borrower in good standing. This is because people with bigger loan balances have more education and are often paid more; they can afford to keep up with their payments.

Low earnings is why young people don’t own homes, not debt itself. Home ownership has not declined among Americans with a college education, but it has for people without a degree. This suggests student debt is not the most pressing problem; it’s low earnings among people who don’t graduate from college.

That doesn’t mean that student loans aren’t a problem, especially for students from low-income families who take on debt to finance a degree they don’t finish or is not worth much (which it might be, if its from a for-profit institution). Many of these borrowers in default. Their debts are crushing because their education did not increase their earnings. Defaulting destroys their credit and hampers their lives.

Helping these borrowers does not require bailing-out higher earners too. A better solution is targeting debt relief and using resources to help students from low-income families thrive in college, by offering them more counseling, financial aid, and academic support.
We should do something

Student loans are also problematic because they contribute to the rising cost of tuition, which has ballooned well beyond inflation and become a growing burden for many families. Government loan guarantees and subsidies make it easy to take out debt, making students less price sensitive. This does not, however, require taxpayers to foot the bill for everyone’s tuition as a fix.

A better alternative is income-based debt payments, where students pay based on what they earn. If universities are paid based on student performance, they will need to become more price sensitive and have an incentive to lower costs.

Student debt is a pressing problem, but not such a huge, urgent one that it requires a blanket bail-out for high-earning Americans. It would be a better use of tax money to target the most vulnerable and better align the incentives of universities with the students they serve.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: g on April 26, 2019, 04:13:07 AM
A student loan is an investment in one's self. It follows the same rules as any other investment...do it wisely.

I imagine most borrowers don't think about it that way, and even if they do, they aren't objective as to the risk adjusted value of that investment.

Hi Buddy J, pleasure to meet you.

You are correct of course when talking about adults or even young adults but wise investing is not the stuff one can expect of youth.

Peer pressure is a most important factor in this equation as is a government seeking control and deciding what is best for it's citizenry. Then there is the bankster element which views it as an excellent idea, the usury attached to the concept being irresistible to the Shylock.

My personal take is that the propaganda being heaved at these kids, the idea that if you don't go to college you will surely grow up to be a zero, poor, and unable to appreciate the good life from your perch on the back of a garbage pick up truck is very persuasive to youngsters who a very impressionable and look to their elders and peers for guidance.

Actually, many like myself consider it criminal exploitation because there is money and usury involved rather than just an opinion.

Being a gold bug also causes me grief in this matter as well, watching the evils of unlimited credit and fiat being created to foster this scam on many of our youth but gold and fiat are another topic.

                                    (https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.m2FKo29yNMVQmA_cf0oBGwAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1)



 
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: BuddyJ on April 26, 2019, 08:22:04 PM
A student loan is an investment in one's self. It follows the same rules as any other investment...do it wisely.

I imagine most borrowers don't think about it that way, and even if they do, they aren't objective as to the risk adjusted value of that investment.

Hi Buddy J, pleasure to meet you.

You are correct of course when talking about adults or even young adults but wise investing is not the stuff one can expect of youth.

Nice to meet you as well.

And it depends on the youth I imagine.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
My personal take is that the propaganda being heaved at these kids, the idea that if you don't go to college you will surely grow up to be a zero, poor, and unable to appreciate the good life from your perch on the back of a garbage pick up truck is very persuasive to youngsters who a very impressionable and look to their elders and peers for guidance.

I've seen more a correlation with what the parents do for a living. In families with college educated parents, it does appear to be common. In families without college educated parents, it seems like it isn't as common.

Purely personal observation.
Title: 🎓 Elizabeth Warren's plan to forgive student-loan debt is costly, but it could
Post by: RE on April 27, 2019, 12:42:13 AM
https://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-elizabeth-warren-economic-impacts-2020-election-2019-4 (https://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-elizabeth-warren-economic-impacts-2020-election-2019-4)

Elizabeth Warren's plan to forgive student-loan debt is costly, but it could actually pour money into the US economy
Sarah Gray

(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cc28e75b14bf472c04964b4-1920-960.jpg)
elizabeth warren Sen. Elizabeth Warren, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate. Sergio Flores/Getty Images

    Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, a 2020 presidential candidate, has proposed erasing a good portion of student-loan debt and providing free public college.
    The plan was met with mixed reviews online. Some people were angry, saying they had already paid their loans back or chose a different college to avoid debt in the first place, while others praised her move.
    Josh Bivens, the research director at the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, told INSIDER in an email that the "short-run macro benefits are neutral to good."
    Whether voters are fans of the plan or not — and there are plenty who are not — Warren's proposal has put student debt front and center in the 2020 election debate.
    Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, a 2020 presidential candidate, has proposed erasing a good portion of student-loan debt and providing free public college.

Her plan, released earlier this week, was met with mixed reviews on Twitter, with some users debating whether it was equitable to people who have already paid off their loans or who selected a different school to avoid education debt.

Meanwhile, some experts think a plan like Warren's could stimulate the US economy.
What the big deal with student debt?

Student debt in the United States ballooned to $1.57 trillion in the last quarter of 2018. It's held by more than 40 million borrowers, according to the US Department of Education. In 2017, the average amount of debt held by a graduate was $28,500.

This can lead debt-holders to postpone hitting some common benchmarks of adulthood (like buying a home), adding to long-term savings, or paying off other debt. CNBC reported that a Bankrate survey published earlier this year found that 73% of respondents had "delayed at least one major life milestone because of their student loan debt."
Drew Angerer/Getty Images
Warren's proposal is to lessen the burden on borrowers

She said it would:

    Cancel $50,000 of debt for those in households making less than $100,000 per year.
    Lessen the debt burden for those making between $100,000 and $250,000, canceling $1 of debt for every $3 in income above $100,000 — for example, if you made $160,000, $30,000 of your student-loan debt would be canceled. (No debt cancellation would be offered for those making more than $250,000, the top 5% of earners.)
    Prevent taxing the canceled debt as income.
    Make debt-holders with private loans eligible for debt cancellation.
    Provide tuition-free public college to help future generations stave off student-loan debt.

Read more: Joe Biden's entrance into the 2020 presidential race will cause a seismic shift. Here are the rival contenders that are in the most trouble

Warren said in her blog post on Medium that 75% of people with student-loan debt would have it canceled and 95% would see some relief.

Warren also shared an economic analysis from Brandeis University, which found that the plan would have "a substantial impact on student debt forgiveness and would greatly benefit households with the least ability to repay" and those for whom higher education was not a major benefit, as well as help lessen the racial wealth gap.

Additionally, the analysis said Warren's plan could boost the economy.

"It would likely entail consumer-driven economic stimulus, improved credit scores, greater home-buying rates and housing stability, higher college completion rates, and greater business formation," it said.
monkeybusinessimages/Getty Images
What the experts say about Warren's proposal

Josh Bivens, the research director at the progressive-leaning Economic Policy Institute, told INSIDER in an email that the plan's "short-run macro benefits are neutral to good."

"This would certainly boost spending by households, who would be wealthier (since debt has been extinguished) and have more disposable income since debt service payments are no longer needed," Bivens wrote. "There is definitely research indicating that student loan payments are holding back home and car purchases — particularly for young adults."

Bivens said that the overall effect, however, would depend on employment numbers and whether the Federal Reserve raises interest rates in response to more spending.

"My sense is that we still have a little bit of daylight between current conditions and unambiguous full employment — so the extra spending really would create some more jobs and income," he said. "And the Fed has signaled that it might wait until inflation shows up in the data before raising rates."

In 2018, the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College published research on one-time student-debt cancellation, finding that "such a proposal could have significant benefits for the U.S. economy."

The researchers said that "student debt cancellation results in an increase in GDP, ranging from $861 billion to about $1,083 billion over the entire period, or on average between $86 billion and $108 billion per year." It would also spur job creation.

However, their research focused on debt cancellation for everyone, unlike Warren's plan, which is income-based.

Read more: The 15 states with the largest middle class

Not everyone is convinced that Warren's plan is the right way to give the economy a jolt. Beth Akers, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, told CNBC that "we can think of better, more efficient ways" to provide an economic boost, adding that debt forgiveness often benefits mainly high earners.

The economist Ben Stein told Fox Business that the tuition-free-college aspect of the plan was "highly irresponsible."
Reuters/Mike Segar
What about the cost of this plan? Will it increase the deficit?

Bivens said that canceling all student loans would "boost the deficit by roughly $85 billion per year" for 10 years.

"To put this in some context, it's about a third as costly as the 2017 Trump tax cut, in fiscal terms," he said.

The Levy Economics Institute's research suggested that the effect of canceling all student loans (which Warren's plan would not do) would be "modest," roughly 0.29% 0.37% of gross domestic product.

Brandeis University estimated that Warren's one-time debt-cancellation proposal would cost the government a lump sum of $640 billion, while providing free public college would cost roughly $1.25 trillion over a decade.

Read more: The 30 highest-paying jobs in Texas, where everything's bigger — including the salaries

Warren also put forth a revenue plan for the proposal: "a 2% annual tax on the 75,000 families with $50 million or more in wealth" and 3% for those making more than $1 billion.

Over a decade, this could raise $2.75 trillion, according to Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman, University of California economists who helped Warren with the proposal.
Student-loan debt is now front and center

Whether voters are fans of the plan or not, Warren's proposal makes student debt a 2020 campaign issue — and one that 57% of millennials under age 30 view as a major problem, a Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics survey found.

Bivens said that in his opinion, the economic benefits are not even the best argument for forgiving debt.

"I think the stronger reasons are fairness and (paired with Warren's plan to make college debt-free going forward) a potentially large boost to college availability, and hence a more-educated and productive (let alone happier) workforce in the future," Bivens said.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: g on April 27, 2019, 04:56:26 AM
A student loan is an investment in one's self. It follows the same rules as any other investment...do it wisely.

I imagine most borrowers don't think about it that way, and even if they do, they aren't objective as to the risk adjusted value of that investment.

Hi Buddy J, pleasure to meet you.

You are correct of course when talking about adults or even young adults but wise investing is not the stuff one can expect of youth.

Nice to meet you as well.

And it depends on the youth I imagine.

Quote from: Golden Oxen
My personal take is that the propaganda being heaved at these kids, the idea that if you don't go to college you will surely grow up to be a zero, poor, and unable to appreciate the good life from your perch on the back of a garbage pick up truck is very persuasive to youngsters who a very impressionable and look to their elders and peers for guidance.

I've seen more a correlation with what the parents do for a living. In families with college educated parents, it does appear to be common. In families without college educated parents, it seems like it isn't as common.

Purely personal observation.

Oh Yes, Please don't get me wrong. I'm not a Commie; well aware there are smart kids, extremely bright. We may be able to agree however, that they are a small minority. Most know nothing about wise investing in their sixties is my personal observation. 

Then there is the myriad of moral arguments to consider as well on this topic.

"Neither a Lender or Borrower Be"
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 27, 2019, 11:15:53 AM
I'm very ambivalent about forgiving student loans. On the one hand, the loans have been made deliberately predatory, which is one point I tried to make above. That makes me want to seen loan amnesty.

On the other hand, the way this is being sold in the media...that all of America's young people are broke because they dreamed of a college education but got shafted and we have to save them?

It's a false narrative. The articles all misrepresent the problem. The facts are clear. The problem is not that ALL students are in default. The whole default situation is about a LARGE NUMBER of SMALL LOANS that go bad...loans that often are NOT for real college at all, but for some kind of conduit scheme trade school or Online University.

Not to mention that a fair number of student loans were made because it was a form of welfare for people who lost jobs in the 2008 crash. Some of those student borrowers in default were desperate for money, and "going back to school" was a good alternative to not eating, but they were never likely to see it through.

What we need to do is REFORM the student loan system, and subsidize it with CHEAP loans or even free money, because in the long run it's good for the country. It used to be that way. Now it's a rip-off engineered by the banks.

And the BANKS are the ones going to get bailed out here if Warren forgives loans. It's laughable, really. Young people will vote for Warren hoping to get their loans forgiven, and if it passes, the biggest beneficiaries will be the banks, not the people with loans. A new conduit scheme will replace this one (or maybe they'll reboot it and make it even more predatory --- not beyond the scope of possibility.) And the people who voted to get loan forgiveness will pay taxes for their entire lives to make the banks COMPLETELY WHOLE.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Surly1 on April 27, 2019, 05:24:01 PM
I'm very ambivalent about forgiving student loans. On the one hand, the loans have been made deliberately predatory, which is one point I tried to make above. That makes me want to seen loan amnesty.

On the other hand, the way this is being sold in the media...that all of America's young people are broke because they dreamed of a college education but got shafted and we have to save them?

It's a false narrative. The articles all misrepresent the problem. The facts are clear. The problem is not that ALL students are in default. The whole default situation is about a LARGE NUMBER of SMALL LOANS that go bad...loans that often are NOT for real college at all, but for some kind of conduit scheme trade school or Online University.

Not to mention that a fair number of student loans were made because it was a form of welfare for people who lost jobs in the 2008 crash. Some of those student borrowers in default were desperate for money, and "going back to school" was a good alternative to not eating, but they were never likely to see it through.

What we need to do is REFORM the student loan system, and subsidize it with CHEAP loans or even free money, because in the long run it's good for the country. It used to be that way. Now it's a rip-off engineered by the banks.

And the BANKS are the ones going to get bailed out here if Warren forgives loans. It's laughable, really. Young people will vote for Warren hoping to get their loans forgiven, and if it passes, the biggest beneficiaries will be the banks, not the people with loans. A new conduit scheme will replace this one (or maybe they'll reboot it and make it even more predatory --- not beyond the scope of possibility.) And the people who voted to get loan forgiveness will pay taxes for their entire lives to make the banks COMPLETELY WHOLE.

This is a really interesting post.

'When you say "the facts are clear," can you cite what you are referring to? You are pretty clear that "LARGE NUMBER of SMALL LOANS that go bad." You generally have a reason for being so adamant.

I share your disdain for Online University. the entire higher ed industry has been dissented by the prevalence of private online universities eager to hang debt on future tax donkeys and debt serfs in desperate search for that entry credential to a gate-kept profession. There are several in my own extended family, all paying off loans.

Back in the day, when people in our cohort went to school, "CHEAP loans or even free money" were the order of the day, because it was social policy to invest in our collective future by staking youth to a better future. Today, as you say, it's all about the Bankster Rake, and we don't give a damn about the future, because we've got a quarter to make and bonuses to collect.

People making $35K a year and making payments for decades on $50K+ of student loans are, needless to say, not buying houses or exploding Teslas.

So if we don't reform the student load system, banks get paid. If we do, banks get paid. When have banks ever taken a haircut?
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 27, 2019, 05:41:21 PM
When have banks ever taken a haircut?

Haircuts banks do take periodically.  What they don't take are BuzzCuts.  Because if you really sheared them, the monetary system collapses.  The whole system is predicated on the debt the banks issue.  Wipe out the debt, you wipe out the money.  Money=Debt you see.

Nobody in any position of power wants the monetary system to crash on their watch.  So they absorb the losses onto Da Goobermint balance sheet where it sits as an ever upward spiraling debt load that can't be paid off, it is irredeemable debt.  This works...until it doesn't.

When will it stop working?  If you can answer that question correctly, you can be richer than Bezos, Gates, Buffet & Suckerbug combined, for a few nano seconds after which the pile of Crypto you pulled in also turns worthless.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Surly1 on April 27, 2019, 06:08:23 PM
When have banks ever taken a haircut?

Haircuts banks do take periodically.  What they don't take are BuzzCuts.  Because if you really sheared them, the monetary system collapses.  The whole system is predicated on the debt the banks issue.  Wipe out the debt, you wipe out the money.  Money=Debt you see.

Nobody in any position of power wants the monetary system to crash on their watch.  So they absorb the losses onto Da Goobermint balance sheet where it sits as an ever upward spiraling debt load that can't be paid off, it is irredeemable debt.  This works...until it doesn't.

When will it stop working?  If you can answer that question correctly, you can be richer than Bezos, Gates, Buffet & Suckerbug combined, for a few nano seconds after which the pile of Crypto you pulled in also turns worthless.

RE

The miracle of fractional reserve lending.

Eight years ago, it was this:

(https://www.prwatch.org/files/images/banks_bailed_out_sign.png)

Same as it ever was.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 27, 2019, 06:35:29 PM
When have banks ever taken a haircut?

Haircuts banks do take periodically.  What they don't take are BuzzCuts.  Because if you really sheared them, the monetary system collapses.  The whole system is predicated on the debt the banks issue.  Wipe out the debt, you wipe out the money.  Money=Debt you see.

Nobody in any position of power wants the monetary system to crash on their watch.  So they absorb the losses onto Da Goobermint balance sheet where it sits as an ever upward spiraling debt load that can't be paid off, it is irredeemable debt.  This works...until it doesn't.

When will it stop working?  If you can answer that question correctly, you can be richer than Bezos, Gates, Buffet & Suckerbug combined, for a few nano seconds after which the pile of Crypto you pulled in also turns worthless.

RE

The miracle of fractional reserve lending.

Eight years ago, it was this:

(https://www.prwatch.org/files/images/banks_bailed_out_sign.png)

Same as it ever was.

Don't forget what started the cascade.  Both Bear Stearns & Lehman Brothers got BuzzCuts, in fact they failed.  The rest of the system was teetering, until Hank the Skank pulled out the Bazooka.  It's the "same as it ever was" because the whole system depends on the banks NOT failing.  When they do (and they will), all the notional wealth out there will burn in the greatest bonfire of paper wealth in all of recorded history.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 28, 2019, 12:14:00 PM
'When you say "the facts are clear," can you cite what you are referring to? You are pretty clear that "LARGE NUMBER of SMALL LOANS that go bad." You generally have a reason for being so adamant.
 

Most of the articles concentrate on things like the total mount of debt, how much is in default, the median loan size, the average loan size.......like this, for instance. They all say the same things.

$1.56 trillion in total U.S. student loan debt
44.7 million Americans with student loan debt

11.5% of student loans are 90 days or more delinquent or are in default

Average monthly student loan payment (among those not in deferment): $393

Median monthly student loan payment (among those not in deferment): $222

That is a deliberate obfuscation of the reality of the problem. You have to take a deeper dive to understand.

Here's some stuff that matters.

Five schools are subject to a loss of eligibility based on a cohort default rate of 40 percent or more for one year, while five schools are subject to a loss of eligibility based on a cohort default rate of 30 percent or greater for three years. Two schools are subject to a loss of eligibility based on a cohort default rate of 40 percent or more for one year and a rate of 30 percent or greater for three years. In certain circumstances, schools may avoid sanctions by submitting a successful adjustment, appeal, or data challenge.

All institutions with a default rate that is equal to or greater than 30 percent must establish a default prevention task force that prepares a plan to identify the factors causing the school's cohort default rate to exceed 30 percent and submit the plan to the Department.

Two schools subject to sanctions for high FY 2014 and FY 2015 cohort default rates—Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College and United Tribes Technical College—will not lose eligibility to participate in the federal student aid programs, if certain conditions are met, due to a provision written into the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2018. The provision, which will last until the end of FY 2019, permits the secretary to exempt schools located in high poverty areas with high default rates.

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls (https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls)



Kentucky? Did you catch that?

You have to really dig to find stats on the breakdown of defaults by loan size. But here it is. I can't do a screen shot with this computer, but look at the Figure 6 graphic in the linked report below. The bigger the loan size, the less likely it is to be in default. (Until the loans get VERY large, bigger than 75K, when it starts to be a problem again.)

Borrowers who owe less than $5,000 at the start of repayment are the most likely to default within four
years; 32 percent of these borrowers defaulted at least once. But high-balance borrowers sometimes
default. About 15 percent of borrowers who owed more than $35,000 at the start of repayment
defaulted on at least one loan over the next four years. But the proportion of borrowers with a large
debt load is small (figure 6).

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf (https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf)



Like most political footballs, the facts are not driving the debate. Polls and public perception, driven by misleading media stories, are shaping the political process and the legislation that is likely to be written here.

Making it look like a monolithic problem that is destroying the future of a whole generation, when the facts are completely in support of a much different story, is just symptomatic of how we do things in this country. It's nothing but propaganda.

There seems to be a COMPLETE lack of press on how BANKS would be impacted by student loan amnesty. But all these loans are government guaranteed, which is why the banking industry is willing to loan money to people who don't have a pot to piss in.

Debt ALWAYS gets paid by someone.

Banks take haircuts? Historically, yes. Lately, not so much. The 1.5 Trillion student debt, if it's forgiven, will NOT be paid by the banks. If you think that, you are pretty clueless.








Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 28, 2019, 02:01:53 PM
Banks take haircuts? Historically, yes. Lately, not so much. The 1.5 Trillion student debt, if it's forgiven, will NOT be paid by the banks. If you think that, you are pretty clueless.

Nobody here is clueless, and insinuating that somebody is is not a valid argument.

It was already stipulated that the debt will be moved onto the balance sheet of Da Goobermint, or at least they will try to do that.  If you buy MMT, then the debt doesn't matter and can be ballooned up indefinitely.  I don't buy that, but there are economists who pitch that POV.

Finally, no, the statement "all debt gets paid by somebody" is false.  Irredeemable debt never gets paid, that's why it's called irredeemable.  That's why they had Jubilees in Biblical times.  You have to reset back to Zero and start over.  That's the Zero Point I talk about.  That's the crash of this monetary system, and it will come, likely within your lifetime.  Expect it.

(https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--HbzpN8a1--/t_Preview/b_rgb:191919,c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1467850926/production/designs/573459_1.jpg)

(http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/REsemblance-Anon-demotivation-1-768x478.png)

RE
(http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Anonymous-Icon-black.gif)
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 28, 2019, 04:02:24 PM
No, you need to go get an MBA and come back, teach.

Irredeemable debt, in finance, means something different than what you think it means:

Irredeemable Debt

Irredeemable debt is debt that has no specific redemption date or maturity period. The issuing authority or entity pays a specified interest rate periodically but provides no data on when principal will be returned. In many cases the principal is never paid. The United States Treasury does not issue irredeemable debt. But other national governments and state and local governments do, typically as bonds or debentures, as do companies. Another name for irredeemable debt is perpetual debt or consol.


In finance, "irredeemable debt" has a very clear definition, and it has nothing to do with jubilees, which don't happen much lately. It can be argued that Europe's debt got written off after the Great Depression. I say they paid in blood.

(https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/tyupo.jpg)

When debts get cancelled for debtors, the lender pays, or if there is a guarantor (like the government), then the taxpayers pay.

To say they don't get paid assumes nobody loses. Somebody ALWAYS absorbs the loss, either though loss of equity or loss of income.

There are those times at the very end of a civilization when the whole system fails and nobody remembers who got screwed, but somebody is always the loser, because it's a zero sum game.

Jubillees happen when the VERY RICH erase the debts of the VERY POOR by writing off some income they were owed...but it's not done out of charity. It's done because things are at a point where the parasites (bankers, like FAT TICKS)  have to let the host recover, so that there is more blood to suck later.

Nobody here is clueless, and insinuating that somebody is is not a valid argument.

I postulate that if you ask 100 Americans how student loan debt forgiveness impacts the lenders, not 3 people will have a clue. That includes some people here .

 I think most Diners who think student loan forgiveness is a great idea are failing to think it through. I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.



Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 28, 2019, 11:55:22 PM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE
Title: 🎓 Elizabeth Warren is trying to tackle the skyrocketing cost of education with
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 12:08:53 AM
https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-free-college-student-debt-cancellation-plan-reaction-2019-4 (https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-free-college-student-debt-cancellation-plan-reaction-2019-4)

Elizabeth Warren is trying to tackle the skyrocketing cost of education with a plan to forgive student-loan debt and offer free college — but experts are divided on her ambitious idea
Eliza Relman

(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cbf67bfb14bf42e1c3a55b2-1136-568.jpg)
Sen. Elizabeth Warren Sen. Elizabeth Warren joins students gathered at Madison Park High School before the March for Our Lives in Boston on March 24, 2018. Boston Globe/Getty Images

    On Monday, Sen. Elizabeth Warren unveiled a highly ambitious plan to relieve a massive amount of student loan debt and make public college free for all.
    The plan is one of the boldest and most progressive in the 2020 debate and progressive education experts and activists praised its scope.
    But conservatives — and some 2020 Democrats — aren't fans of the proposal. They cite the $1.25 trillion price tag, and argue that the proposal doesn't do enough to address skyrocketing college tuition.
    Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

On Monday, Sen. Elizabeth Warren unveiled an ambitious plan to relieve most Americans' student loan debt and make public college free for all.

Warren's policy would cancel $50,000 in student loan debt for every American whose family makes up to $100,000, and make all public higher education, including community colleges, free for all.

The plan is vast in scope: it would eliminate all student debt for 75% of Americans who have it, and get rid of at least some debt for 95% of the almost 45 million affected Americans, according to an analysis by four social policy professors released by the campaign.

Read more: Elizabeth Warren just unveiled a plan to make public colleges free for all Americans

Progressive activists have cheered on the 2020 candidate's plan, which would also expand grants for low-income students and significantly boost funding for historically black colleges and universities.

But the proposal has also been critiqued by conservatives, moderate Democrats, and some education experts, who say it's too expensive and an insufficient fix for the rapidly-rising cost of college.
college campus students walkNational student debt has more than doubled in the last decade, and reached $1.5 trillion this year.Drew Angerer/Getty Images
The necessity of a college degree

Warren's free college plan is premised on the idea that education — kindergarten through college — should be a public good.

But many conservatives don't believe the federal government should be responsible for higher education. And some conservative education experts argue that the government shouldn't incentivize Americans to get a college degree over another other form of higher education or training.

Lindsey Burke, the director of the Center for Education Policy at the conservative Heritage Foundation, told INSIDER that Warren's plan further cements "the notion that the only way to be successful in life is to go to a four-year brick and mortar college."

Burke argues the system instead needs accreditation reform, more innovative tuition financing models, and proposals that would put colleges on the hook for their students' future success.

But Americans overwhelmingly view college as a key to opportunity and financial security.

A 2012 Pew survey found a whopping 94% of parents of kids under 17 years old expected their children to attend college.

And there is a massive earnings gap between Americans with bachelors degrees and those with high school degrees. In 2015, college graduates earned 56% more then their high school graduate counterparts. Those with four-year degrees make 26% more, on average, than those with associate's degrees — and that gap grows to more than 50% after a decade of work experience.

And the demand for workers with college degrees is growing. By 2020, 65% of US jobs will require at least some higher education, according to a 2013 Georgetown University study, but just about a third of Americans have college degrees, and about 40% have education beyond high school.

Read more: College is more expensive than it's ever been, and the 5 reasons why suggest it's only going to get worse

Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.Sen. Bernie Sanders introduced the "College for All Act" in 2017. Jose Luis Magana/AP Images

And, of course, there's the issue of cost. Warren's plan comes with a $1.25 trillion price tag, which the senator says she'd pay for with her wealth tax on the country's 75,000 richest families.

After Warren rolled out the plan, some Democrats agreed with Republicans that student-loan debt forgiveness and free public college is simply too expensive.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a moderate Minnesota Democrat and 2020 candidate, argued during a town hall on Monday that the US can't afford the plan and has proposed a more modest alternative that would include making community college free.

"I wish I could staple a free college diploma under every one of your chairs. I do. Don't look, it's not there. I wish I could do that but I have to be straight with you," Klobuchar said on Monday.

Burke, and other conservatives, further argued that Warren's proposal would be unfair to Americans who've already paid off their loans.

The "losers" under Warren's policy, Burke argued, are "those students who chose to work while they were in college to minimize their debt after they graduated, those students who chose to maybe pursue an apprenticeship instead of an expensive four-year degree, those students who took out a loan but after they graduated lived very modestly in order to pay back what they owed."

Many on the left criticized that logic, arguing that ameliorating suffering for one group isn't a bad thing. And others argued that past generations of students had it easier than today's students because of the sharp drop in state investment in public colleges over the last decade.
A fix for skyrocketing tuition?

Education experts across the political spectrum agree that the rising cost of a college degree is unsustainable. Tuition at four-year public colleges has risen more than 100% since 2001, even after adjusting for inflation. And grants and financial aid have not kept up.

Elizabeth Popp Berman, a sociology professor at the University at Albany, SUNY says she'd like to see more details in Warren's plan on how the government would force schools to control costs.

"You have to find some way to cap the college tuition aspect of it, or else you don't really solve the underlying problem," Berman told INSIDER.

Berman does believe that if public colleges are tuition- and fee-free, private colleges will be forced to lower their costs at least somewhat in order to compete.

And Mark Huelsman, the associate director of policy and research at the liberal think tank Demos, argued that Warren's plan will limit costs at public schools by controlling the amount each school is allocated, while forcing all to be tuition-free.

"The potential of this plan is that it increases public investment back to levels we saw when college was much more affordable, and it pegs it to a price for students," he told INSIDER. "So rather than just pumping money into the system, it pumps money into the system and says that in return for that money ... public colleges have to be tuition-free."

In contrast Burke blames the federal student loan system for skyrocketing tuition. About 30% of undergraduate students took out federal student loans in the 2016-2017 school year.

"[Colleges] are able to increase their tuition and fees at breathtaking levels because they know students can just run back to the federal government and have easy access to a loan," Burke said.

Other education reformers argue the cost of public college has risen so dramatically in large part because of cuts in state funding. Particularly since the Great Recession, state legislatures have pushed tuition increases while reducing funding for their state's educational institutions.
2020 Democratic presidential candidate South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg speaks during a town hall meeting, Tuesday, April 16, 2019, in Fort Dodge, Iowa. (AP Photo/Charlie Neibergall)Democratic 2020 candidate Pete Buttigieg is skeptical of Warren's plan. Associated Press
Subsidizing rich kids?

Critics of Warren's plans argue that free college and debt forgiveness would force taxpayers, most of whom don't have college degrees, to fund the education of students from wealthy families.

"Americans who have a college degree earn more than Americans who don't," Democratic 2020 candidate Pete Buttigieg said. "As a progressive, I have a hard time getting my head around the idea of a majority who earn less because they didn't go to college subsidizing a minority who earn more because they did."

On Monday, Buttigieg argued that progressive tax reform should be accomplished before a free college plan like Warren's is implemented.

But Huelsman says progressives should be pushing for the principle of education as a public good. (Warren's plan would cut off student loan forgiveness for those with a household income of more than $250,000).

"No one's proposing that rich kids pay for K-12," Huelsman said. "This centers the idea that everyone, regardless of income, should have a right to free higher education."

Berman argues the universality of the proposal makes it more politically palatable: it would benefit everyone, while targeting low-income students.

"It does mean that you're giving a benefit that's going to go to the middle class to a significant extent, but I also think that politically that's the only way you get people on board with providing assistance to the people who need it the most," Berman said.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 29, 2019, 06:31:31 AM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 06:58:36 AM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 29, 2019, 08:19:30 AM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on April 29, 2019, 09:41:31 AM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system. There is no good reason why student loans should be effectively excluded from this system, other than the moral hazard associated with the occasional person who borrows just to blow the money on themselves and forego the education. Even this scenario can be dealt with through the non-dischargeable fraud provisions of the bankruptcy code.

The following is a brief summary of a selected recommendation by this year's ABI commission on consumer bankruptcy:


Recommendation

Student loan debt significantly depresses U.S. economic activity, and
current bankruptcy law ineffectively addresses it. The Commission
recognizes that recent graduates should generally be required to repay
government-made or guaranteed student loans, but it recommends
statutory amendments to discharge student loans that are
• made by nongovernmental entities;
• incurred by a person other than the person receiving the education;
• being paid through a five-year chapter 13 plan; or
• first payable more than seven years before a chapter 7 bankruptcy is
filed.

In addition, the Commission recommends administrative procedures and
interpretations of current law to facilitate reasonable relief from student
loan indebtedness.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 10:48:59 AM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 12:30:43 PM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.

I didn't say ALL opinion.  I said "most of the time".

Calling me a "dick" is a violation of the CoC.  I'll let it go this time.  :icon_sunny:  See?  I'm not a TOTAL dick.  lol.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on April 29, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them, especially when it comes to Eddie and even more when it comes to me.

But here a couple reasons why it's not certain off the top of my head:

1) There are already complex mechanisms for challenging the dischargeability of student loans in bankruptcy court. Lawyers can generate a good amount of fees pursuing these mechanisms for clients, even if they are unlikely to be successful. The ABI proposal would eliminate the need for pursuing these complicated legal arguments.

2) People who are far behind on student loan debt for a long period of time tend to be the people who would need bankruptcy anyway for other debts. So it's not clear the client base would increase greatly.

3) When the mechanisms for discharging student debt are radically simplified, lawyers will have no basis for raising their fees for people who need help with those debts. Anyone who does will be quickly out competed by others in their jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 04:04:44 PM

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 29, 2019, 05:09:00 PM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

There are reasonable proposals out there. We have a system in place which pretty accurately assesses a person's ability to repay debts and then offers them a path forward to wipe out or restructure those debts accordingly. This is the bankruptcy system.

That certainly would be a windfall for bankruptcy lawyers.

RE

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them, especially when it comes to Eddie and even more when it comes to me.

But here a couple reasons why it's not certain off the top of my head:

1) There are already complex mechanisms for challenging the dischargeability of student loans in bankruptcy court. Lawyers can generate a good amount of fees pursuing these mechanisms for clients, even if they are unlikely to be successful. The ABI proposal would eliminate the need for pursuing these complicated legal arguments.

2) People who are far behind on student loan debt for a long period of time tend to be the people who would need bankruptcy anyway for other debts. So it's not clear the client base would increase greatly.

3) When the mechanisms for discharging student debt are radically simplified, lawyers will have no basis for raising their fees for people who need help with those debts. Anyone who does will be quickly out competed by others in their jurisdiction.

Ashvin, for once at least, I agree with you completely and without reservation. Making student loans fall outside bankruptcy protection was a huge mistake and no doubt it was something bought and paid for with serious graft.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on April 29, 2019, 05:11:45 PM
I am not impressed with the financial acumen of Diners, most of whom are broke and likely to stay broke. There are some exceptions and we both know who they are.

Please specify which Diners you think possess "financial acumen" and which Diners lack "financial acumen".

RE

No. That's just my opinion, and it serves no purpose to call anyone out. I stand by my statement, however, that nobody is looking at student loan forgiveness in any kind of rational way, and that the media greatly misrepresents the facts.

As has been noted, it's all opinion here most of the time.  You made a generalized statement to back up your argument, so I asked you to specify that to find the basis for your opinion.  If you are unwilling to do that, don't make those kind of generalized statements about Diners.

RE

It's not all opinion. I posted a litany of facts. Don't  be such a dick.

I didn't say ALL opinion.  I said "most of the time".

Calling me a "dick" is a violation of the CoC.  I'll let it go this time.  :icon_sunny:  See?  I'm not a TOTAL dick.  lol.

RE

You're not really a dick. I was giving you a hard time.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 29, 2019, 06:42:47 PM
You're not really a dick. I was giving you a hard time.

I know.  You still can't do it though.  Sets a bad example.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on April 30, 2019, 02:42:08 PM

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE

Regardless, you still have certainty when it is not warranted and you can't even explain why. I told you why the "volume" argument doesn't hold much water, but you ignored that.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on April 30, 2019, 04:24:59 PM

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE

Regardless, you still have certainty when it is not warranted and you can't even explain why. I told you why the "volume" argument doesn't hold much water, but you ignored that.

The volume argument holds plenty of water, regardless of your opinion.

RE
Title: 🎓 Millennials struggle under the burden of student loan debt: "I had a panic
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 12:56:16 AM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-i-had-a-panic-attack-millennials-struggle-under-the-burden-of-student-loan-debt/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-i-had-a-panic-attack-millennials-struggle-under-the-burden-of-student-loan-debt/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News April 30, 2019, 6:47 PM
Millennials struggle under the burden of student loan debt: "I had a panic attack"

(https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/04/30/372e691f-4021-4e40-8d39-1aaec6b671ac/thumbnail/1240x698/7a65f844d1a30a341b850c123c17745c/taylorwork2.jpg)

Last Updated Apr 30, 2019 10:25 PM EDT

There's a growing debate in the 2020 presidential campaign over student loan forgiveness, and proposals to relieve graduates in debt. Borrowers nationwide owe a total of $1.5 trillion in federal student loan debt.
 
Taylor Smith's a millennial on the move in Houston. But at 25, she has put off buying a house, getting married and starting a family.
 
"If you want a good job, you have to go to college. But nobody talks about the price," Smith said.
 
To pay for her education at Texas A&M University, Smith worked full-time throughout college. She also cobbled together 11 student loans.
 
"I probably graduated with about $53,000 in student debt," Smith said. "That number hit me for the first time my last semester of college. And it was the first time I saw the full balance. And I had a panic attack immediately."
 
After graduation, she couldn't afford the monthly minimum payment. She had to quit her first dream job registering voters in Colorado with the nonpartisan New Era Colorado Foundation. 
taylorwork2.jpg
Taylor Smith CBS News

"I was struggling to buy groceries. I was donating plasma and doing psychological studies just to get a few extra dollars," Smith said. "That was a big reality check, realizing this bill that I have is what's gonna hold me back."
 
Currently, 43 million Americans have student debt. The average household with student debt owes almost $48,000 and 5.2 million borrowers are in default.
 
Meanwhile, college costs keep rising. At Ohio State, a public university, in-state students pay $27,000 a year. Stanford University costs $74,000.
 
"We're telling individuals to just take on the debt, it's worth it. And the larger ramifications to their lives and our society are truly unknown," said Seth Frotman, the executive director of the Student Borrower Protection Center, a non-profit watchdog. "The student debt crisis is here. With no end in sight and absolutely zero plan to tackle this at the federal level."
 
Teenagers with no credit history and no guaranteed job routinely borrow tens of thousands of dollars through loans guaranteed by the U.S. Department of Education.
 
"The federal government will always get their money," Frotman said. "We don't give student loan borrowers a second chance in bankruptcy. We let their wages be garnished. We even let their Social Security benefits be seized."

Month by month, Smith chips away at her college debt but she still owes $49,000.
 
"The moment you get an acceptance letter from college, that's really the moment you start taking on this debt," Smith said.
A generation in debt

Smith is far from alone. So CBS News asked millennials to share their stories. Samer Hassan, 28, currently has $22,000 in student debt.

"By the time I graduate university, that will be $80,000," Hassan said. "This is going to turn into an $800 bill every month. That's a car note. That's a home mortgage. That's childcare."

Michael Perles, 27, said he is about $134,000 in debt. Ky'Lend Adams, 23, owes $90,000. Allie Truitt has around $56,000 in debt.

"When I lost my job when the recession hit, I asked for help. I asked if there was any way I could lower my monthly payments. The only thing they offered me was deferment with a lifetime maximum of nine months," Truitt said.

Elizabeth Chandry owes more than $108,000.

"It prevents me from a lot of things. Getting a dog, buying a house and right now it is making it extremely hard for me to change careers," she said.

They all described the anxiety they feel about how their loans will impact the rest of their life.
 
"If I decided to get a car, if I decide to own a home, these student loans are a part of my credit score and a part of my identity for the rest of my life," Adams said.

The issues related to student debt are so wide-ranging, groups have popped up to respond. Young Invincibles and Student Debt Crisis have been working to increase awareness on the impacts of debt.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 07:44:05 AM

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE

Regardless, you still have certainty when it is not warranted and you can't even explain why. I told you why the "volume" argument doesn't hold much water, but you ignored that.

I'd like to get back to the strange case of student loans being exempted from bankruptcy protection. I think the data I cited makes it very clear that this is at the core of the student loan crisis, and is the elephant in the room.

And it is the obvious solution. Since it is far and away the people who ARE bankrupt and owing a small student debt that skew the numbers, merely restoring this protection would make this "massive crisis" look rather tame.

Only problem, the banks would probably end up taking part of the hit. This, imho, would not be a big deal, since they have profited mightily from screwing students with high interest predatory loans for years now.

Who is talking about this in a sensible way? Absolutely nobody. The press is complicit in another BIG LIE. BAU.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on May 01, 2019, 11:25:58 AM

Here's your problem - you say "certainly" when it is not certain at all. I know why you are so convicted too - because you think that most arguments or proposals are made for the monetary benefit of the people making them

That IS the reason most of the time.  Just ask your mentor Joel Osteen.

Anyhow, it's certain because of the numbers.  Volume.  Many more people would pursue the BK option if it was radically simplified.  You do wholesale lawyering instead of retail.

RE

Regardless, you still have certainty when it is not warranted and you can't even explain why. I told you why the "volume" argument doesn't hold much water, but you ignored that.

I'd like to get back to the strange case of student loans being exempted from bankruptcy protection. I think the data I cited makes it very clear that this is at the core of the student loan crisis, and is the elephant in the room.

And it is the obvious solution. Since it is far and away the people who ARE bankrupt and owing a small student debt that skew the numbers, merely restoring this protection would make this "massive crisis" look rather tame.

Only problem, the banks would probably end up taking part of the hit. This, imho, would not be a big deal, since they have profited mightily from screwing students with high interest predatory loans for years now.

Yep. Some people don't want to admit there are any "solutions" because that will ruin the narrative of the "massive crisis" that can never end in anything but total financial collapse.

Quote
Who is talking about this in a sensible way? Absolutely nobody. The press is complicit in another BIG LIE. BAU.

I think the ABI is talking about this in a sensible way. Here is a link to the full report (let me know if it doesn't work and I'll try to download and send you the file). Student loans in bankruptcy are discussed in depth in the first section. I'll post some of it below, but not all of it because the formatting is a pain in the ass.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/abi-consumercommission/final_report/FinalReportABICommissionOnConsumerBankruptcy.pdf


Scope of the Problem. Student loan debt is one of the most significant economic problems facing the United States. According to Federal Reserve data, outstanding student loan debt has tripled since 2006,
from under $500 billion to over $1.5 trillion today.1  In 2003, both credit card and auto loan indebtedness were several times the amount of student loan debt, but now student loan debt greatly exceeds both.2
Among all types of household debt, student loans have the highest delinquency rate.3 The most recent data show 10.9% of student loans as 90+ days delinquent,4 and various reports suggest that the true
default rate is higher because government figures look only at defaults in the first three years after graduation.5

Student loan over indebtedness causes overall economic activity to decline and constrains the postcollege options that students have. Academic studies have associated student debt with (1) lower earnings of college graduates,6  (2) lower levels of homeownership,7 (3) lower automobile purchases,8 (4)higher household financial distress,9 (5) lower probability of students choosing public-service careers,10 (6) poorer psychological functioning,11 (7) delayed marriage,12 and (8) lower probability of continuing education through graduate school.13 Student loan debt thus affects not only those who owe the loans but also has consequences that ripple through our communities and our nation.

...

Retention of Nondischargeability. The Commission weighed the reasons for student loan nondischargeability against the problems that massive amounts of student loan debt are creating for
American households today. The Commission considered but rejected the notion of making student loans freely dischargeable like any other debt, concluding that the rationales supporting nondischargeability
remain valid. Funding of sources for educational lending is essential to the system of higher education, and increased earnings resulting from higher education will often allow a student to repay loans that are
initially quite large. If reasonably applied,27 Brunner’s three-factor undue-hardship standard can allow appropriate bankruptcy relief during a period when discharge of student loans is not otherwise available.
The Commission’s recommendations are intended as a package and represent a practical, middle-ground approach that will provide meaningful changes while respecting the traditional protections for student loans.

Statutory Amendments — Return to the Seven-year Rule. The centerpiece of the Commission’s recommendation is to return to the pre-1998 rule that allowed student loans to be discharged after seven
years from the time they first became payable. Before seven years, student loans would be dischargeable only upon a finding of undue hardship. The rationales for nondischargeability lose their force after a
student loan has been outstanding for a significant time. If a debtor cannot obtain sufficiently lucrative employment to repay a student loan that has long been outstanding, it is unlikely the debtor’s circumstances will change to allow significant repayment of the student loan. For loans that have been long outstanding and have become delinquent, it is more likely that the overhang of substantial student loan debt will prevent the debtor from engaging in productive economic activity, diminishing the debtor’s contribution to the community, such as by establishing a household and supporting the tax base.

The Commission considered different time periods after which a student loan could be freely discharged. Some commissioners thought five years or less might be appropriate, while others believed much longer
time periods were appropriate. Drawing on the experience from the pre-1998 law, the Commission decided a seven-year period best balanced the need for payment and the need to encourage economic activity by the debtor. A seven-year period is 70% of the initial ten-year repayment period for a student loan.

Statutory Amendments — No Protection for Nongovernmental Loans. The Commission recommends that only student loans made, insured, or guaranteed by a governmental unit receive any protection from
discharge. Governmental student loan programs advance the public policy of making higher education widely available and generally must make their loans available to anyone who qualifies, without regard
to underwriting criteria. When making student loans, the government cannot choose only the most creditworthy borrowers. Failure to repay these loans can threaten the viability of government student
loan programs.

In contrast, private student loans are underwritten in a similar fashion to other unsecured debt, and the interest rates charged on the loans can reflect the risk of loss associated with these obligations. As
with any participant in a consumer lending market, private student lenders may require co-signers and security to protect their loans. BAPCPA added private student lenders to those protected from
discharge. Academic research, however, suggests that this change did not lead to lower interest rates for student borrowers28 and was not necessary given the lack of strategic default in the private student loan
market before BAPCPA.29 The Commission therefore recommends that Congress should return section 523 to its pre-2005 state where private student loans did not receive any dischargeability exception.

Statutory Amendments — Protecting Nonstudent Debtors. The Commission also recommends that section 523(a)(8) should limit nondischargeability to student loans owed by the student who benefitted from the loan, rather than by third parties. Third parties — guarantors or suppliers of collateral — would not have benefitted from the loans, and if they are otherwise in need of bankruptcy relief, they should not
have their discharge impaired by their support of the student who did benefit.

It goes on...
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 01:10:51 PM
 The Commission considered but rejected the notion of making student loans freely dischargeable like any other debt, concluding that the rationales supporting nondischargeability
remain valid. Funding of sources for educational lending is essential to the system of higher education, and increased earnings resulting from higher education will often allow a student to repay loans that are
initially quite large. If reasonably applied,27 Brunner’s three-factor undue-hardship standard can allow appropriate bankruptcy relief during a period when discharge of student loans is not otherwise available.
The Commission’s recommendations are intended as a package and represent a practical, middle-ground approach

Not sure what the Brunner's 3 factor standard is but generally speaking, I completely disagree with the rationale they're stating for not changing their recommendations.

It isn't the college grads who default, by and large.. It's the college dropouts and the trade school dropouts...and the trade school grads who get scammed by some predatory diploma mill and end up with a worthless credential. Sure there ARE some college grads who default, but problem is clearly weighted towards  the bottom of the educational barrel both in terms of schools and students.

So the idea that they can pay because they're able to? It's not correct for the vast majority of defaulters, with their 5-10K piddling debt and no  means.  That argument is specious.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 02:14:29 PM
It isn't the college grads who default, by and large.. It's the college dropouts and the trade school dropouts...and the trade school grads who get scammed by some predatory diploma mill and end up with a worthless credential. Sure there ARE some college grads who default, but problem is clearly weighted towards  the bottom of the educational barrel both in terms of schools and students.

Not sure where you are getting those stats, but here is what you get from studentloanhero.com:

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ (https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/)

A Look at the Shocking Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2019

student-loan-debt-statistics

Updated: Feb. 4, 2019

It’s 2019, and Americans are more burdened by student loan debt than ever.

Among the Class of 2018, 69% of college students took out student loans, and they graduated with an average debt of $29,800, including both private and federal debt. Meanwhile, 14% of their parents took out an average of $35,600 in federal Parent PLUS loans.

You’ve probably heard another scary statistic: Americans owe over $1.56 trillion in student loan debt, spread out among about 45 million borrowers. That’s about $521 billion more than the total U.S. credit card debt.

But how does this break down at a more granular level? Are student loans being used to attend public or private universities? Is it mostly from four-year or graduate degrees? What percentage of overall graduates carry debt? Are more grads utilizing private student loan consolidation and refinancing?

Let’s take a look.

(Data provided by Mark Kantrowitz, publisher and vice president of research with SavingforCollege.com, as well as by the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, unless otherwise specified.)

BONUS: Get a PDF of these statistics to print out, save, or send

General student loan debt facts

First, let’s start with a general picture of the student loan landscape. The most recent reports indicate there is:

(Data via the U.S. Federal Reserve, here, here and here, and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, here and here.)

Public Service Loan Forgiveness statistics

As of Q3 2018 (latest available data)

PSLF borrowers: 890,516*

Borrowers who attempted to certify for PSLF: 1,173,420

Borrowers who submitted forgiveness applications: 19,321

Borrowers who were granted PSLF: 55

* Total number of borrowers who have one or more approved PSLF Employment Certification Forms (ECF)

(Note: Borrowers are self-identified based on submission of an ECF. Source: United States Government Accountability Office, via the Report to Congressional Requesters)

Federal student loan portfolio

(updated for Q4 2018)

Now let’s dive into how much debt student loan borrowers carry by loan type, term and more.

Student loan debt statistics by loan program:

Direct Loans $1.1503 trillion 34.2 million borrowers
FFEL Loans $281.8 billion 13.5 million borrowers
Perkins Loans $7.1 billion 2.3 million borrowers
Total (All Federal) $1.4392 trillion 42.9 million borrowers

Student loan debt statistics by loan type:

Stafford Subsidized $277.5 billion 29.6 million borrowers
Stafford Unsubsidized $489.6 billion 28.7 million borrowers
Stafford combined $767.1 billion 33.1 million unique recipients
Grad PLUS $67.0 billion 1.3 million borrowers
Parent PLUS $89.9 billion 3.6 million borrowers
Perkins $7.1 billion 2.3 million borrowers
Consolidation $508.0 billion 11.9 million borrowers

Data via Studentaid.ed.gov

Student debt statistics by loan status (Direct Loan Program)

Loans in repayment $623.7 billion 17.8 million borrowers
Loans in deferment $124.3 billion 3.7 million borrowers
Loans in forbearance $111.1 billion 2.6 million borrowers
Loans in default $101.4 billion 5.1 million borrowers
Loans in grace period $43.9 billion 1.7 million borrowers

Student loan statistics by repayment plan (Direct Loan Program)

Level Repayment Plan(10 years or less) $196.2 billion 10.83 million borrowers
Level Repayment Plan(greater than 10 years) $76.5 billion 1.69 million borrowers
Graduated repayment plan(10 years or less) $84.2 billion 3.03 million borrowers
Graduated repayment plan(greater than 10 years) $15.1 billion 320,000 borrowers
Income-Contingent (ICR) $29.9 billion 660,000 borrowers
Income-Based (IBR) $168.5 billion 2.83 million borrowers
Pay As You Earn (PAYE) $78.9 billion 1.27 million borrowers
Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) $136.7 billion 2.45 million borrowers

Student loan debt by servicer

(updated for Sept. 30, 2018)

 RepaymentDefermentForbearanceIn-SchoolGrace
  Outstanding(billions) Recipients(millions) Outstanding(billions) Recipients(millions) Outstanding(billions) Recipients(millions) Outstanding(billions) Recipients(millions) Outstanding(billions) Recipients(millions)
PHEAA $223.9 5.05 $35.9 0.92 $45.6 0.87 $25.5 1.02 $10.0 0.30
Great Lakes $141.8 4.53 $31.2 0.95 $26.3 0.70 $33.4 1.63 $11.4 0.40
Nelnet $115.6 3.63 $24.9 0.76 $16.0 0.44 $25.3 1.22 $9.4 0.33
Navient $140.6 4.06 $25.0 0.69 $27.1 0.58 $20.1 0.99 $8.0 0.29
Not-for-profit
 servicers
$42.9 2.22 $12.2 0.55 $3.6 0.18 $33.6 2.84 $5.1 0.36

Data Source: National Student Loan Data System

More shocking student loan debt statistics

If those numbers weren’t stunning enough, here’s a closer look at how students accumulate debt based on the type of school they attend.

Graduates who received Pell Grants were likely to borrow, and borrow more:

(Data via Ticas.org,here, here and here)

Private student loan debt statistics

(Data via Ticas.org here and here)

Graduate student loan debt

In 2012, about 40% of all student loan debt was used to finance graduate and professional degrees.

Combined undergraduate and graduate debt by degree:

Clearly, as these student loan debt statistics show, the cost of attending college is becoming a growing burden for a huge portion of Americans.

What are you doing to pay off your debt and ensure you don’t become another statistic? Be sure to let us know how we can help.

(Data via 2012 Newamerica.org study)

Save these statistics for yourself

For press inquiries, please contact press@studentloanhero.com.

Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 02:51:59 PM
It isn't the college grads who default, by and large.. It's the college dropouts and the trade school dropouts...and the trade school grads who get scammed by some predatory diploma mill and end up with a worthless credential. Sure there ARE some college grads who default, but problem is clearly weighted towards  the bottom of the educational barrel both in terms of schools and students.

Not sure where you are getting those stats, but here is what you get from studentloanhero.com:

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ (https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/)

<h1>A Look at the Shocking Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2019</h1>
<p><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-4981" src="https://cdn.studentloanhero.com/wp-content/uploads/student-loan-debt-statistics.jpg" alt="student-loan-debt-statistics" width="640" height="300" /></p>
<p>Updated: Feb. 4, 2019</p>
<p>It’s 2019, and Americans are more burdened by student loan debt than ever.</p>
<p>Among the Class of 2018, 69% of college students took out student loans, and they graduated with an average debt of $29,800, including both <a href="https://studentloanhero.com/featured/best-private-student-loans/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">private[/url] and <a href="https://studentloanhero.com/featured/federal-student-loans-guide/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">federal[/url] debt. Meanwhile, 14% of their parents took out an average of $35,600 in federal Parent PLUS loans.</p>
<p>You’ve probably heard another scary statistic: Americans owe over $1.56 trillion in student loan debt, spread out among about 45 million borrowers. That’s about $521 billion more than the <a href="https://studentloanhero.com/average-credit-card-household-debt-statistics/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">total U.S. credit card debt[/url].</p>
<p>But how does this break down at a more granular level? Are student loans being used to attend public or private universities? Is it mostly from four-year or graduate degrees? What percentage of overall graduates carry debt? Are more grads utilizing private student loan consolidation and refinancing (https://studentloanhero.com/featured/5-banks-to-refinance-your-student-loans/)?</p>
<p>Let’s take a look.</p>
<p><small>(Data provided by Mark Kantrowitz, publisher and vice president of research with <a href="https://www.savingforcollege.com/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">SavingforCollege.com[/url], as well as by the <a href="https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g19/current/default.htm" rel="noopener" target="_blank">U.S. Federal Reserve[/url] and the <a href="https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/interactives/householdcredit/data/xls/sl_update_2018.xlsx" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Federal Reserve Bank of New York[/url], unless otherwise specified.)</small></p>
<p style="color: #3592f0; text-align: center;"><a data-sumome-listbuilder-id="54470ee8-dd71-44f7-8ac4-fe194429d2d5" data-sumome-trigger="true">BONUS: Get a PDF of these statistics to print out, save, or send[/url]</p>
<h2>General student loan debt facts</h2>
<p>First, let’s start with a general picture of the student loan landscape. The most recent reports indicate there is:</p>
<ul>
<li>$1.56 trillion in total U.S. student loan debt</li>
<li>44.7 million Americans with student loan debt</li>
<li>11.5% of student loans are 90 days or more delinquent or are in default</li>
<li>Average monthly student loan payment (among those not in deferment): $393</li>
<li>Median monthly student loan payment (among those not in deferment): $222</li>
</ul>
<p><small>(Data via the U.S. Federal Reserve, <a href="https://studentloanhero.com/featured/ask-these-7-questions-before-you-merge-finances-with-your-partner/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url], <a href="https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2017-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2016-education-debt-loans.htm" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url] and <a href="https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2017-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2016-education-debt-loans.htm" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url], and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, <a href="https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/interactives/householdcredit/data/xls/sl_update_2018.xlsx" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url] and <a href="https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/interactives/householdcredit/data/pdf/hhdc_2018q3.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url].)</small></p>
<h2>Public Service Loan Forgiveness statistics</h2>
<p><small>As of Q3 2018 (latest available data)</small></p>
<p>PSLF borrowers: 890,516*</p>
<p>Borrowers who attempted to certify for PSLF: 1,173,420</p>
<p>Borrowers who submitted forgiveness applications: 19,321</p>
<p>Borrowers who were granted PSLF: 55</p>
<p>* Total number of borrowers who have one or more approved PSLF Employment Certification Forms (ECF)</p>
<p><small>(Note: Borrowers are self-identified based on submission of an ECF. Source: United States Government Accountability Office, via the <a href="https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/694304.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Report to Congressional Requesters[/url])</small></p>
<h2>Federal student loan portfolio</h2>
<p><small>(updated for Q4 2018)</small></p>
<p>Now let’s dive into how much debt student loan borrowers carry by loan type, term and more.</p>
<h3 class="slh-table-title">Student loan debt statistics by loan program:</h3>
<div class="slh-medium-table">
<table class="slh-medium-table-container">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Direct Loans</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$1.1503 trillion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">34.2 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>FFEL Loans</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$281.8 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">13.5 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Perkins Loans</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$7.1 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">2.3 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span>Total (All Federal)</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$1.4392 trillion</span></td>
<td><span><span style="font-weight: 400;">42.9 million</span> borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<h3 class="slh-table-title">Student loan debt statistics by loan type:</h3>
<div class="slh-medium-table">
<table class="slh-medium-table-container">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Stafford Subsidized</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$277.5 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">29.6 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Stafford Unsubsidized</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$489.6 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">28.7 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Stafford combined</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$767.1 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">33.1 million unique recipients</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Grad PLUS</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$67.0 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.3 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Parent PLUS</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$89.9 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">3.6 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Perkins</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$7.1 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">2.3 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Consolidation</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$508.0 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">11.9 million</span> borrowers</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p class="small-data upper"><small>Data via <a href="https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/portfolio" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Studentaid.ed.gov[/url]</small></p>
<h3 class="slh-table-title">Student debt statistics by loan status (Direct Loan Program)</h3>
<div class="slh-medium-table">
<table class="slh-medium-table-container">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Loans in repayment</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$623.7 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">17.8 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Loans in deferment</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$124.3 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">3.7 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Loans in forbearance</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$111.1 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">2.6 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Loans in default</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$101.4 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">5.1 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Loans in grace period</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$43.9 billion</span></td>
<td>1.7 million borrowers</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<h3 class="slh-table-title">Student loan statistics by repayment plan (Direct Loan Program)</h3>
<div class="slh-medium-table">
<table class="slh-medium-table-container">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Level Repayment Plan<small>(10 years or less)</small></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$196.2 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">10.83 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Level Repayment Plan<small>(greater than 10 years)</small></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$76.5 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.69 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Graduated repayment plan<small>(10 years or less)</small></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$84.2 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">3.03 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Graduated repayment plan<small>(greater than 10 years)</small></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$15.1 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">320,000 borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Income-Contingent (ICR)</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$29.9 billion</span></td>
<td>660,000 borrowers</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Income-Based (IBR)</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$168.5 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">2.83 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Pay As You Earn (PAYE)</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$78.9 billion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.27 million borrowers</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE)</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$136.7 billion</span></td>
<td>2.45 million borrowers</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<h3 class="slh-table-title">Student loan debt by servicer</h3>
<p class="slh-table-title"><small>(updated for Sept. 30, 2018)</small></p>
<div class="slh-large-table-container">
<table>
<thead>
<tr><th> </th><th colspan="2">Repayment</th><th colspan="2">Deferment</th><th colspan="2">Forbearance</th><th colspan="2">In-School</th><th colspan="2">Grace</th></tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr class="subheader">
<td> </td>
<td>Outstanding<small>(billions)</small></td>
<td>Recipients<small>(millions)</small></td>
<td>Outstanding<small>(billions)</small></td>
<td>Recipients<small>(millions)</small></td>
<td>Outstanding<small>(billions)</small></td>
<td>Recipients<small>(millions)</small></td>
<td>Outstanding<small>(billions)</small></td>
<td>Recipients<small>(millions)</small></td>
<td>Outstanding<small>(billions)</small></td>
<td>Recipients<small>(millions)</small></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>PHEAA</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$223.9</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">5.05</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$35.9</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.92</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$45.6</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.87</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$25.5</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.02</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$10.0</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.30</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Great Lakes</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$141.8</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">4.53</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$31.2</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.95</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$26.3</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.70</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$33.4</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.63</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$11.4</span></td>
<td>0.40</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nelnet</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$115.6</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">3.63</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$24.9</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.76</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$16.0</span></td>
<td>0.44</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$25.3</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">1.22</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$9.4</span></td>
<td>0.33</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Navient</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$140.6</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">4.06</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$25.0</span></td>
<td>0.69</td>
<td>$27.1</td>
<td>0.58</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$20.1</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.99</span></td>
<td>$8.0</td>
<td>0.29</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Not-for-profit

 servicers</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$42.9</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">2.22</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$12.2</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.55</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$3.6</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">0.18</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$33.6</span></td>
<td>2.84</td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">$5.1</span></td>
<td>0.36</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p class="small-data"><small>Data Source: National Student Loan Data System</small></p>
<h2>More shocking student loan debt statistics</h2>
<p>If those numbers weren’t stunning enough, here’s a closer look at how students accumulate debt based on the type of school they attend.</p>
<ul>
<li>65% of seniors graduating from public and nonprofit colleges in 2017 had student loan debt.</li>
<li>Average debt at graduation from public and nonprofit colleges was $28,650 in 2017, a 1% increase from 2016.</li>
<li>66% of graduates from public colleges had loans (average debt of $25,550)</li>
<li>75% of graduates from private nonprofit colleges had loans (average debt of $32,300)</li>
<li>88% of graduates from for-profit colleges had loans (average debt of $39,950)</li>
<li>About 15% of the student debt held by the graduating class of 2017 was private.</li>
<li>48% of borrowers who attended for-profit colleges default within 12 years, compared to 12% of public college attendees, and 14% of nonprofit college attendees.</li>
</ul>
<p>Graduates who received Pell Grants were likely to borrow, and borrow more:</p>
<ul>
<li>88% of graduates who received Pell Grants had student loans in 2012, with an average balance of $31,200.</li>
<li>53% of those who didn’t receive a Pell Grant had student loan debt, borrowing an average of $26,450 ($4,750 less than those with Pell Grants).</li>
</ul>
<p><small>(Data via Ticas.org,<a href="https://ticas.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files/pub/Debt_Facts_and_Sources.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url], <a href="https://ticas.org/sites/default/files/pub_files/classof2017.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url] and <a href="https://ticas.org/sites/default/files/pub_files/students_at_the_greatest_risk_of_default.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here[/url])</small></p>
<h3><span>Private student loan debt statistics</span></h3>
<ul>
<li>Private student loan debt volume hit $7.8 billion in 2014-15, up from $5.2 billion in 2010-11.</li>
<li>More than half of undergraduates don’t take full advantage of federal students, borrowing private loans before they’ve exhausted their available federal loans.</li>
<li>In 2011-2012, 48% of private loan borrowers attended schools that had tuition costs of $10,000 or less</li>
<li>Nearly 1.4 million undergraduates borrowed private loans in 2011-2012</li>
<li>About 15% of debt carried by seniors graduating in 2017 was in private loans — compared to 16% of the graduating class of 2016 with private loans — with an average burden of $18,550.</li>
<li>Interest rates for private loans ran as a high as 14.24% in September 2018.</li>
</ul>
<p><small>(Data via Ticas.org <a href="https://ticas.org/sites/default/files/pub_files/classof2017.pdf" target="_blank">here[/url] and <a href="https://ticas.org/sites/default/files/pub_files/private_loan_facts_trends.pdf" target="_blank">here[/url])</small></p>
<h3><span>Graduate student loan debt</span></h3>
<p>In 2012, about 40% of all student loan debt was used to finance graduate and professional degrees.</p>
<p>Combined undergraduate and graduate debt by degree:</p>
<ul>
<li>MBA = $42,000 (11% of graduate degrees)</li>
<li>Master of Education = $50,879 (16%)</li>
<li>Master of Science = $50,400 (18%)</li>
<li>Master of Arts = $58,539 (8%)</li>
<li>Law = $140,616 (4%)</li>
<li>Medicine and health sciences = $161,772 (5%)</li>
<li>Other master’s degrees = $55,489 (15%)</li>
</ul>
<p>Clearly, as these student loan debt statistics show, the cost of attending college is becoming a growing burden for a huge portion of Americans.</p>
<p>What are you doing to pay off your debt and ensure you don’t become another statistic? Be sure to let us know how we can help.</p>
<p><small>(Data via 2012 </small><a href="https://static.newamerica.org/attachments/750-the-graduate-student-debt-review/GradStudentDebtReview-Delisle-Final.pdf" rel="noopener" target="_blank"><small>Newamerica.org study</small>[/url])</p>
<p style="color: #3592f0; text-align: center;"><a data-sumome-listbuilder-id="54470ee8-dd71-44f7-8ac4-fe194429d2d5" data-sumome-trigger="true">Save these statistics for yourself[/url]</p>
<p>For press inquiries, please contact press@studentloanhero.com (http://mailto:press@studentloanhero.com).</p>

I'm quoting the actual numbers. You obviously aren't even reading my posts. Look back at my post above when I responded to Surly.

I'll say it one more time...the devil is in the details and that site you're pasting is all true, but it hides the reality. Almost all the sources you can find do the same thing, They talk about total numbers and average amounts owed and median amount owed.

They blow your mind with what look like huge numbers. But a lot of it.....like amounts owed, size of payments, numbers of students who owe money.....NONE of that has jack shit to do with WHO is defaulting and why, or how much they owe. You have to dig deeper to find that, because no MSM source wants you to even know. But if you examine the data, it jumps right out.

Most loans in default are small.

Most defaulters are not college grads.

If you look at loans (up to the 75K level) the more that's owed, the less likely the borrower is to be in default. (And there is NOT that much money tied up in loans of that size anyway) (see figure 6 in the source below).

And, there is a clear pattern of scam schools where it isn't uncommon for 30 or 40 percent of loans to be in default...and still the government is letting them keep doing what they're doing. (Different data, not from the source below, but correct.)

I can't do a screen shot with this machine, but look at Figure 6 in this report. Better yet post a screen shot of figure 6. so we can look at it together. Very revealing.

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf (https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf)
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on May 01, 2019, 04:26:45 PM
The Commission considered but rejected the notion of making student loans freely dischargeable like any other debt, concluding that the rationales supporting nondischargeability
remain valid. Funding of sources for educational lending is essential to the system of higher education, and increased earnings resulting from higher education will often allow a student to repay loans that are
initially quite large. If reasonably applied,27 Brunner’s three-factor undue-hardship standard can allow appropriate bankruptcy relief during a period when discharge of student loans is not otherwise available.
The Commission’s recommendations are intended as a package and represent a practical, middle-ground approach

Not sure what the Brunner's 3 factor standard is but generally speaking, I completely disagree with the rationale they're stating for not changing their recommendations.

It isn't the college grads who default, by and large.. It's the college dropouts and the trade school dropouts...and the trade school grads who get scammed by some predatory diploma mill and end up with a worthless credential. Sure there ARE some college grads who default, but problem is clearly weighted towards  the bottom of the educational barrel both in terms of schools and students.

So the idea that they can pay because they're able to? It's not correct for the vast majority of defaulters, with their 5-10K piddling debt and no  means.  That argument is specious.

If what you're saying is correct, then shouldn't college grads with large loans be prevented from discharging them in most circumstances (Brunner test basically applies to people with permanent illnesses/disabilities which prevent them from working)? Freely dischargeable loans for all students under all circumstances would create the strategic defaulting and gaming of the system that led to a change of rules in the first place. That's what the commission is saying, and I'm not sure you are disagreeing?
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
I can't do a screen shot with this machine, but look at Figure 6 in this report. Better yet post a screen shot of figure 6. so we can look at it together. Very revealing.

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf (https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf)

I didn't see any prior link to your stats before this.  I went back 2 pages looking.

Here's Figure 6:

Student Loan 1
Student Loan 1

What it shows is that ~43% of the loans are below $10K, ~57% above.  So most loans are greater than $10K, not less.  In terms of default, you would have to have the figures for all the bars because the black sections get too small to total up visually.  It also doesn't tell you the total amount of the defaults, a fewer total number of defaults on higher balances could equal or exceed many defaults with low balances.  You just don't know from this chart.  It also doesn't tell you what type of school the loan was used for, or what percentage were graduates or dropouts.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 05:14:48 PM
I read that part I quoted and the way I understood it..... is that they considered whether the loans should be exempted from bankruptcy protection with the rationale being that the education they're receiving enables them to pay. Is that not what they're saying?

Bu the reality is.....you have this problem with defaults, with a relatively FEW large loans in default and a relatively FEW college grads with loans in default....

But a WHOLE LOT of washouts and cosmetology grads who are really the ones who are FAR AND AWAY constituting the ranks of the defaulters, and who owe an amount of money you or I could put on our credit card.....but they simply are too broke to even come up with the vig for the GSL loan sharks?????

They aren't ABLE to pay and they never will be. It's exactly what Chapter 7 was designed FOR, in my book.

Sure. Maybe the ABI would be right if most of the defaulters were college grads....maybe a bunch of deadbeat doctors and dentists trying to beat the system...but the data says that isn't even close to the reality of what's happening.

And the New Socialist Democrats are looking and seeing yet another demographic they can pander to for votes. College educated Americans who owe money on student loans.....so AMNESTY FOR ALL is their call to action. It's just so typical.

It's a flim-flam. Just like all the other special deals for special people.

The practical way is to let the poor student debtors with no means go Chapter 7, and make the ones who have the means go Chapter 13 if they want to declare BR, and then make them pay the principal...and even the interest if they have the means. And deny them the easy out. It seems very straightforward to me.

You're the attorney. People can't just declare bankruptcy on a whim, right? If they aren't even in default, they'd just pay. And if they are in default and they can be shown to have means, then deny them relief. Isn't that the way BR works most of the time?

The ABI is being influenced by vested interests in my view, with an eye toward protecting the very entities that are responsible for this whole unsustainable conduit scheme in the first place.



Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 05:47:23 PM
I can't do a screen shot with this machine, but look at Figure 6 in this report. Better yet post a screen shot of figure 6. so we can look at it together. Very revealing.

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf (https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/98884/underwater_on_student_debt.pdf)

I didn't see any prior link to your stats before this.  I went back 2 pages looking.

Here's Figure 6:

Student Loan 1
Student Loan 1

What it shows is that ~43% of the loans are below $10K, ~57% above.  So most loans are greater than $10K, not less.  In terms of default, you would have to have the figures for all the bars because the black sections get too small to total up visually.  It also doesn't tell you the total amount of the defaults, a fewer total number of defaults on higher balances could equal or exceed many defaults with low balances.  You just don't know from this chart.  It also doesn't tell you what type of school the loan was used for, or what percentage were graduates or dropouts.

RE

Don't try to bullshit your way out of this. It's as clear as day. You must be kidding me.

The black boxes are defaults.

The graphic clearly shows (a) the $5K loan group is the biggest group of borrowers, period. And (b)the defaults are huge, much bigger than even the 10K group.

The 10K group is the next biggest group of borrowers, and the second largest in default

The disparity is striking. Graphically, without even looking at the raw data, it's easy enough to see that those two groups alone have more defaults than ALL THE OTHERS PUT TOGETHER.

Which is exactly what I said.

Another trend worth noting is that in general, the defaults are clearly smaller as the loans get bigger. Just look. (Yes I see the the ones at the end that don't fit. There's a reason for that too.

And the whole graph makes nearly a perfect declining exponential curve. Just look at it. The higher the loan, the fewer the borrowers that are in the group, period

Until you get to the 75K level.

Those are the doctors and the dentists and the lawyers, I guarantee you. Yes the defaults start to be a problem again. People do drop out and even get flunked out of professional school, and I'm sure there is a vanishingly small group of deadbeats, too that just don't pay.

I can't believe you are so attached to your POV you want to argue with that graph.

I'm done. I don't want to go back to calling people stupid. Anybody who can read can see I'm 100% correct.




Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on May 01, 2019, 06:27:01 PM
I read that part I quoted and the way I understood it..... is that they considered whether the loans should be exempted from bankruptcy protection with the rationale being that the education they're receiving enables them to pay. Is that not what they're saying?

Bu the reality is.....you have this problem with defaults, with a relatively FEW large loans in default and a relatively FEW college grads with loans in default....

But a WHOLE LOT of washouts and cosmetology grads who are really the ones who are FAR AND AWAY constituting the ranks of the defaulters, and who owe an amount of money you or I could put on our credit card.....but they simply are too broke to even come up with the vig for the GSL loan sharks?????

They aren't ABLE to pay and they never will be. It's exactly what Chapter 7 was designed FOR, in my book.

Sure. Maybe the ABI would be right if most of the defaulters were college grads....maybe a bunch of deadbeat doctors and dentists trying to beat the system...but the data says that isn't even close to the reality of what's happening.

I think I see where the problem is here. You are pointing out that, currently, the stats don't show a bunch of people with degrees and large loans trying to game the bankruptcy system to get rid of debt even when they are earning decent incomes. ABI commission would agree, but say this is because the rules were changed to make it more difficult (near impossible) for these people to discharge student loans in bankruptcy. They are worried that if the rules were reversed to treat student loan debt the exact same as credit card debt in Chapter 7, this moral hazard would once again resurface and would stifle the provision of student loans to people who actually deserve them. I think they have a very good argument for that.

But I think the report agrees that people with relatively small loans and worthless degrees should be able to discharge the loans much more easily. Their way of measuring that is by the amount of time that has passed since the loans became due before the bankruptcy filing, among other more complicated yet important things, such as the creation of a new priority scheme for student loans in Chapter 13.

Also, in my experience, I would point out that I come across a decent chunk of low-income clients whose student loans are by far the greatest % of their unsecured debt. Usually this is because of compounding interest, and private student loans usually have higher interest rates, especially for people with poor credit history. The ABI report suggests that private student loans be treated the exact same as general unsecured debt, i.e. freely dischargeable.

Quote
And the New Socialist Democrats are looking and seeing yet another demographic they can pander to for votes. College educated Americans who owe money on student loans.....so AMNESTY FOR ALL is their call to action. It's just so typical.

It's a flim-flam. Just like all the other special deals for special people.

Agree completely.

Quote
The practical way is to let the poor student debtors with no means go Chapter 7, and make the ones who have the means go Chapter 13 if they want to declare BR, and then make them pay the principal...and even the interest if they have the means. And deny them the easy out. It seems very straightforward to me.

You're the attorney. People can't just declare bankruptcy on a whim, right? If they aren't even in default, they'd just pay. And if they are in default and they can be shown to have means, then deny them relief. Isn't that the way BR works most of the time?

The ABI is being influenced by vested interests in my view, with an eye toward protecting the very entities that are responsible for this whole unsustainable conduit scheme in the first place.

People can declare bankruptcy whenever they want, even before defaulting on any debt. And I have gotten quite a few people into Chapter 7 even when they technically had the means to repay some % of their debt. Now these people weren't super rich - they are people with combined 100-200k income, a few kids, high cost of living, variable incomes (like small business owners) which could evaporate, and/or ongoing medical issues which could easily get worse and unaffordable. It's a very case by case evaluation for me. But, the point being, it's not extremely difficult for people to game the system on student loans if they are treated exactly the same as general unsecured debt in Chapter 7 without any additional protections.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
I'm done. I don't want to go back to calling people stupid. Anybody who can read can see I'm 100% correct.

That is a back-hand way of calling me stupid.  It's a violation of the CoC but I'll let it go.  I can read, and I can't see you are 100% correct.  Do you dispute my analysis of the graph or the points I made about what it doesn't show?

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 06:30:30 PM
Out of all the many stupid conduit scheme programs that are eligible for student loans, only the 12 very worst are on double secret probation for their 30 and 40 percent default rates, and none have been cut off.

Wanna guess? Stanford? MIT? Chicago Institute of Art?.

Sanctions

Schools with high default rates may lose their eligibility to participate in federal student aid programs. This year, 12 schools are subject to sanctions, including one public, two private, and nine proprietary institutions.

Those schools include:

CA—Corona—Advance Beauty Techs Academy

FL—Oakland Park—Florida Academy of Health and Beauty

IL—Chicago—Larry's Barber College

KY—Cumberland—Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College

MA—Worcester—Rob Roy Academy

NY—Niagara Falls—Cheryl Fell's School of Business

NY—Rochester—Sharp Edge Barber Institute

ND—Bismarck—United Tribes Technical College

PA—Lancaster—Champ's Barber School

PR—Saint Just—Theological University of the Caribbean

TN—Madison—Nashville Barber and Style Academy

WI—Beloit—First Class Cosmetology School

Surprise!!!! They DO still call it Barber College. Isn't that quaint?

Hey, I wanna get a loan and check in at the Theological Seminary of the Caribbean. Major in Surfing with Jesus.[ /color]


https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls (https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls)

Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 07:11:19 PM
All the quotes are getting unwieldy for me.

Ashvin, in spite of your anecdotal experience with your practice (and I'm not doubting that it's valuable) the evidence shows that there is a huge problem with really poor people who took on poorly advised student debt, or took it on when the couldn't find work, just to provide emergency bennies. These people were exploited. An interesting thing,I think, would be to find photos of all those people who run those bottom-of-the-barrel Barber Colleges. See just who they are. I will admit I have some preconceived notions on that, but I don't know.

These are conduit schemes, and politicians made it possible for these crooks to misappropriate student loan money that someone might have spent for an education, on a worthless piece of paper that cost them very little and taught their student even less.

I don't think poor people who are in student loan default are getting a bankruptcy chance. If they were, there wouldn't be so many who haven't done it. Unless it's for the other possible reason. Which is that all default means, at least for a while, is that your credit is shot and people harass you on the phone. No rush to worry about it unless you get jammed up with getting paid at work.

RE, my very serious complaint about your statement above is that you are trying to do exactly what I accuse the media of doing. Youre taking the data I hunted down in order  do one specific thing......to break out loans by amount owed and defaults by amount owed......so it would be clear how much most defaulters owe.

Now you're trying to combine and re-average that groups I just went to great length to find and separate.......just so you can support your POV.

You and they are sweeping a real (and more interesting)  story under the rug under a false narrative that basically says that most college grads are not able to stay current on their loans (which the data shows is wrong), and using that lie to support some kind of broad amnesty.

There seems to be this popular meme in our culture now, which you buy into, that says a college education doesn't pay off anymore.  So we have this nation of liberal arts majors who are waiters, and physics Ph.D's who tutor middle-schoolers trying to fast track to the PSAT's.

If student loan defaults by college grads is is a reason you think that, then you should think again.  The student loan data does not support that. It supports the opposite.




Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 07:45:47 PM
Now you're trying to combine and re-average that groups I just went to great length to find and separate.

I didn't re-average anything.  I just added up the numbers from the first 2 columns.

Basically, to have a productive discussion on this you have to know how much is owed by each cohort in order to see how the debt is distributed out.  10 people who default on $50K loans is equal to 100 people who default on $5K loans.  So in this example, you can have 10X as many Barber College grads (or dropouts) defaulting as IT grads defaulting on $50K in loans and that's a wash.  But we don't know what the distribution is there.  You are reading into the chart more than it actually tells you.  That's the math, not an ideological POV.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 07:47:43 PM
Why, just look a the default rates for our overpriced flagship Sate Universities. Off the charts......oopsie, maybe not so much. Sorry for the format, I'll give a link below. With a few exceptions, default rates for flagship state universities are very low.

Rank   School   # of Defaults   # of Borrowers   Default Rate   Y-O-Y Difference
1   University of Virginia   26   2,712   0.9%   -0.4
2   University of Michigan - Ann Arbor   92   5,862   1.5%   0.2
2   University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill   66   4,176   1.5%   -0.3
4   University of Wisconsin - Madison   99   5,700   1.7%   0.2
5   University of Vermont   46   2,468   1.8%   -1.4
6   University of Florida   139   7,184   1.9%   -0.7
7   University of Minnesota - Twin Cities   188   8,976   2.0%   -0.1
8   University of Maryland - College Park   109   5,054   2.1%   -0.3
9   University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign   139   6,262   2.2%   0.5
10   University of New Hampshire   88   3,821   2.3%   0.1
10   University of South Carolina - Columbia   145   6,233   2.3%   -0.8
12   University of California - Berkeley   113   4,705   2.4%   0.3
12   University of Georgia   129   5,299   2.4%   -0.6
14   University of Connecticut   142   5,492   2.5%   0.1
14   University of Washington - Seattle   221   8,832   2.5%   -0.2
16   University of Texas at Austin   209   8,035   2.6%   0.2
16   University of Iowa   137   5,118   2.6%   -0.1
18   University of Delaware   92   3,224   2.8%   0.6
19   University of Colorado Boulder   144   4,515   3.1%   0.0
19   University of Utah   167   5,371   3.1%   -0.1
19   University of Massachusetts - Amherst   188   5,934   3.1%   -0.4
22   State University of New York at Buffalo   185   5,552   3.3%   0.1
22   University of Nebraska   142   4,252   3.3%   -0.2
22   University of North Dakota   110   3,318   3.3%   -0.3
25   University of Oregon   153   4,338   3.5%   -0.3
26   Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey   503   13,944   3.6%   0.3
27   Indiana University - Bloomington   260   6,525   3.9%   0.3
27   Louisiana State University   163   4,124   3.9%   -1.3
29   University of Missouri - Columbia   254   6,147   4.1%   -0.4
30   University of Hawaii at Manoa   138   3,285   4.2%   -1.1
31   University of Kentucky   229   5,072   4.5%   -0.8
32   University of Oklahoma   259   5,512   4.6%   0.3
33   University of Tennessee   803   16,963   4.7%   0.1
34   University of Wyoming   105   2,119   4.9%   -0.1
35   University of Kansas   259   5,175   5.0%   0.2
35   Ohio State University   585   11,670   5.0%   0.1
37   University of Nevada - Reno   155   3,032   5.1%   0.0
37   Pennsylvania State University   983   19,227   5.1%   -0.1
39   University of Rhode Island   175   3,303   5.2%   0.0
39   University of Alabama   306   5,814   5.2%   -0.5
41   University of South Dakota   134   2,508   5.3%   0.0
42   University of Arkansas   235   4,279   5.4%   -1.4
43   University of Idaho   144   2,526   5.7%   -0.2
44   University of Arizona   414   7,084   5.8%   -0.9
45   University of Maine   168   2,475   6.7%   1.2
46   University of Mississippi   326   3,989   8.1%   -0.7
47   West Virginia University   633   7,427   8.5%   0.2
48   University of Montana   388   3,777   10.2%   -0.5
49   University of Alaska Fairbanks   164   1,341   12.2%   -0.2
50   University of New Mexico   771   6,169   12.4%   -0.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/student-loan-default-rates-2018 (https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/student-loan-default-rates-2018)
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 08:00:21 PM
Why, just look a the default rates for our overpriced flagship Sate Universities. Off the charts......oopsie, maybe not so much. Sorry for the format, I'll give a link below. With a few exceptions, default rates for flagship state universities are very low.

In no way does that address how the total debt is distributed out.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 08:09:27 PM
Now you're trying to combine and re-average that groups I just went to great length to find and separate.

I didn't re-average anything.  I just added up the numbers from the first 2 columns.

Basically, to have a productive discussion on this you have to know how much is owed by each cohort in order to see how the debt is distributed out.  10 people who default on $50K loans is equal to 100 people who default on $5K loans.  So in this example, you can have 10X as many Barber College grads (or dropouts) defaulting as IT grads defaulting on $50K in loans and that's a wash.  But we don't know what the distribution is there.  You are reading into the chart more than it actually tells you.  That's the math, not an ideological POV.

RE

No, what were looking at is groups split by initial loan amounts, and then percentage of  DEFAULTERS in each group. That's what I'm looking at.I'm not sure wtf you're looking at.

The graph shows those who owe the least, have the highest defaults.  That IS what it says. If you would like to actually read the whole executive summary of the research, the text supports what I'm saying too. Start with page 7. I can't reproduce it here.


Here's an entirely different source, which substantiates what I'm saying.

The data show that the average defaulter looks very different from stereotypical portrait of a college student as someone who comes straight to college out of high school and lives in a dormitory on campus while pursuing a bachelor’s degree.

 Defaulters are more likely to be older, be Pell Grant recipients, and come from underrepresented backgrounds than those who never default.

The median defaulter takes out slightly over $9,600—just more than one-half of what the median nondefaulter borrows.3 Three out of every 10 defaulters are African American and nearly one-half of all defaulters never finish college.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/12/14/444011/student-loan-defaulters/ (https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/12/14/444011/student-loan-defaulters/)
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 08:14:40 PM
Why, just look a the default rates for our overpriced flagship Sate Universities. Off the charts......oopsie, maybe not so much. Sorry for the format, I'll give a link below. With a few exceptions, default rates for flagship state universities are very low.

In no way does that address how the total debt is distributed out.

RE

What it shows is that at a good school, generally less than 3% of borrowers default. That's what it shows. It shows college grads are able to pay back their loans, so far.  (Except maybe in New Mexico.)
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 08:15:18 PM

The graph shows those who owe the least, have the highest defaults.

They have the highest default RATE, but they don't necessarily have the highest total default AMOUNT.  The question at hand is where is most of the defaulted debt is sitting, and to know that you have to have both the rate of default and the amount defaulted on for each cohort.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on May 01, 2019, 08:31:08 PM
Ashvin, in spite of your anecdotal experience with your practice (and I'm not doubting that it's valuable) the evidence shows that there is a huge problem with really poor people who took on poorly advised student debt, or took it on when the couldn't find work, just to provide emergency bennies. These people were exploited. An interesting thing,I think, would be to find photos of all those people who run those bottom-of-the-barrel Barber Colleges. See just who they are. I will admit I have some preconceived notions on that, but I don't know.

These are conduit schemes, and politicians made it possible for these crooks to misappropriate student loan money that someone might have spent for an education, on a worthless piece of paper that cost them very little and taught their student even less.

I don't think poor people who are in student loan default are getting a bankruptcy chance. If they were, there wouldn't be so many who haven't done it. Unless it's for the other possible reason. Which is that all default means, at least for a while, is that your credit is shot and people harass you on the phone. No rush to worry about it unless you get jammed up with getting paid at work.

Eddie, we all agree that these people are not currently getting any relief in bankruptcy. That's what the ABI commission wants to change. Their proposals are not perfect, but they are a HUGE improvement on the system we currently have. They will make it much easier for low-income people who are in long-term default to wipe out student loans. They will make it easier for all people to wipe out private student loans, regardless of how long they are in default. They will make it easier for third party guarantors who were just trying to help out their kids. They will make it easier for some student loan debt to be discharged in a Chapter 13 repayment plan. All of these are GOOD things and vast improvements on what we have now.

This is definitely a situation where we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 08:37:31 PM

The graph shows those who owe the least, have the highest defaults.

They have the highest default RATE, but they don't necessarily have the highest total default AMOUNT.  The question at hand is where is most of the defaulted debt is sitting, and to know that you have to have both the rate of default and the amount defaulted on for each cohort.

RE

If you don't default at all..........the defaulted amount is zero.

The graph, up to the 75K level, is a perfect declining exponential curve. And the percentage of defaulters can be seen to approach zero as the loan size approaches 75K. You can read the trend right off the curve.

There are plenty of other sources, and if you want to see it broken down another way I can do it.

(https://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/sa-2016-f12b_0.png)

https://trends.collegeboard.org/student-aid/figures-tables/share-defaulters-and-three-year-default-rates-loan-balance


Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 08:46:34 PM

The graph shows those who owe the least, have the highest defaults.

They have the highest default RATE, but they don't necessarily have the highest total default AMOUNT.  The question at hand is where is most of the defaulted debt is sitting, and to know that you have to have both the rate of default and the amount defaulted on for each cohort.

RE

If you don't default at all..........the defaulted amount is zero.

The graph, up to the 75K level, is a perfect declining exponential curve. And the percentage of defaulters can be seen to approach zero as the loan size approaches 75K. You can read the trend right off the curve.

There are plenty of other sources, and if you want to see it broken down another way I can do it.

(https://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/sa-2016-f12b_0.png)

In this example, 24% default on <$5K, while 7% default on >$40K

So out of a sample of 100 people in each of those cohorts you get

.24 X 100 X <$5K for < $120K

and

.07 X 100 X >$40K for >$280K

Even though the percentage of defaulters is lower, the total amount they default on is greater, for the same sample size.  Now you also need to know the size of the sample in each cohort as well.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 01, 2019, 09:08:14 PM

The graph shows those who owe the least, have the highest defaults.

They have the highest default RATE, but they don't necessarily have the highest total default AMOUNT.  The question at hand is where is most of the defaulted debt is sitting, and to know that you have to have both the rate of default and the amount defaulted on for each cohort.

RE

If you don't default at all..........the defaulted amount is zero.

The graph, up to the 75K level, is a perfect declining exponential curve. And the percentage of defaulters can be seen to approach zero as the loan size approaches 75K. You can read the trend right off the curve.

There are plenty of other sources, and if you want to see it broken down another way I can do it.

(https://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/sa-2016-f12b_0.png)

In this example, 24% default on <$5K, while 7% default on >$40K

So out of a sample of 100 people in each of those cohorts you get

.24 X 100 X <$5K for < $120K

and

.07 X 100 X >$40K for >$280K

Even though the percentage of defaulters is lower, the total amount they default on is greater, for the same sample size.  Now you also need to know the size of the sample in each cohort as well.

RE

See Share of Defaulters above that? I take that to mean amount of total defaulted debt broken down by loan size. That is the number you're trying to calculate, is it not?

If it means something else, what does is mean?

Let me get back to my core argument here.

More money is owed and there are more numbers of defaulters in the smaller loans cohorts. This is supported by facts. You can check it out in many places. I'm not wrong and I'm not making it up.

College educated people tend to pay their loans.

Most media articles put a lot of emphasis on total amounts of student loans owed, and not on the amount of defaults, or check to see if defaults are concentrated in certain social classes and certain schools and certain locations. All of those things are very relevant, but if fully understood, would undermine the meme of college grads being crushed by debt, which turns out to be a myth.


Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 01, 2019, 10:27:44 PM
More money is owed and there are more numbers of defaulters in the smaller loans cohorts.

That conclusion is not supported by any of the data you have provided thus far.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Surly1 on May 02, 2019, 02:20:32 AM

Most media articles put a lot of emphasis on total amounts of student loans owed, and not on the amount of defaults, or check to see if defaults are concentrated in certain social classes and certain schools and certain locations. All of those things are very relevant, but if fully understood, would undermine the meme of college grads being crushed by debt, which turns out to be a myth.

What is a myth is that college loans are NOT crushing the next generation. You've already made the point that the banks are going to get paid on either side of the coin. This is true, IMO. You have also made the point that back in the day, college loan money used to be cheap; now it is less so. Also true. And much of this is exacerbated by Big Private University Blood-Funnel Suck, which takes advantage of the Higher Ed Loan-Industrial Complex in order to enroll young people to sell them a credential for entry into a gate-kept field.

Here's what IS true; young people laboring under such debt are deferring families, house purchases, vehicle purchases, in many cases the idea of ownership of almost anything save phones and game systems. People making $30K jobs and paying off debt for a long time don't make the kinds of commitments previous generations made, investments which are fundamental to the wheel keeping going round and round.

This effect may be deferred in big cities, or for graduates of prestigious institutions. Certainly doctors and other professionals will be able to pay back a #200K debt load. Librarians less so.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Surly1 on May 02, 2019, 02:25:26 AM
Out of all the many stupid conduit scheme programs that are eligible for student loans, only the 12 very worst are on double secret probation for their 30 and 40 percent default rates, and none have been cut off.

Wanna guess? Stanford? MIT? Chicago Institute of Art?.

Sanctions

Schools with high default rates may lose their eligibility to participate in federal student aid programs. This year, 12 schools are subject to sanctions, including one public, two private, and nine proprietary institutions.

Those schools include:

CA—Corona—Advance Beauty Techs Academy

FL—Oakland Park—Florida Academy of Health and Beauty

IL—Chicago—Larry's Barber College

KY—Cumberland—Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College

MA—Worcester—Rob Roy Academy

NY—Niagara Falls—Cheryl Fell's School of Business

NY—Rochester—Sharp Edge Barber Institute

ND—Bismarck—United Tribes Technical College

PA—Lancaster—Champ's Barber School

PR—Saint Just—Theological University of the Caribbean

TN—Madison—Nashville Barber and Style Academy

WI—Beloit—First Class Cosmetology School

Surprise!!!! They DO still call it Barber College. Isn't that quaint?

Hey, I wanna get a loan and check in at the Theological Seminary of the Caribbean. Major in Surfing with Jesus.[ /color]


https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls (https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls)

Just being this.

"Champ's Barber College" has a nice ring to it. Although a post doc at Theological Seminary of the Caribbean sounds even better.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Ashvin on May 02, 2019, 04:04:38 AM
More money is owed and there are more numbers of defaulters in the smaller loans cohorts.

That conclusion is not supported by any of the data you have provided thus far.

RE

Something to consider - when someone defaults, they dont necessarily owe the total amount of the loan. If you miss one scheduled payment you are technically in default. You may have already paid off a good chunk of the loan already. I'm not sure what length of default is being considered in the graphs posted here.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 02, 2019, 04:19:44 AM
More money is owed and there are more numbers of defaulters in the smaller loans cohorts.

That conclusion is not supported by any of the data you have provided thus far.

RE

Yes it is.

 We haven't even looked at a fraction of the data. We've looked at a couple of fairly obvious conclusions that can be arrived at by a  close look a the data. Many, many sources will confirm what I'm saying. I will bury you in fucking data.

Something to consider - when someone defaults, they dont necessarily owe the total amount of the loan. If you miss one scheduled payment you are technically in default. You may have already paid off a good chunk of the loan already. I'm not sure what length of default is being considered in the graphs posted here.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 02, 2019, 04:31:50 AM

Most media articles put a lot of emphasis on total amounts of student loans owed, and not on the amount of defaults, or check to see if defaults are concentrated in certain social classes and certain schools and certain locations. All of those things are very relevant, but if fully understood, would undermine the meme of college grads being crushed by debt, which turns out to be a myth.

What is a myth is that college loans are NOT crushing the next generation. You've already made the point that the banks are going to get paid on either side of the coin. This is true, IMO. You have also made the point that back in the day, college loan money used to be cheap; now it is less so. Also true. And much of this is exacerbated by Big Private University Blood-Funnel Suck, which takes advantage of the Higher Ed Loan-Industrial Complex in order to enroll young people to sell them a credential for entry into a gate-kept field.

Here's what IS true; young people laboring under such debt are deferring families, house purchases, vehicle purchases, in many cases the idea of ownership of almost anything save phones and game systems. People making $30K jobs and paying off debt for a long time don't make the kinds of commitments previous generations made, investments which are fundamental to the wheel keeping going round and round.

This effect may be deferred in big cities, or for graduates of prestigious institutions. Certainly doctors and other professionals will be able to pay back a #200K debt load. Librarians less so.

If you want to make an argument that it's immoral to charge so much for college and to allow loan sharks to exploit vulnerable people trying to better themselves, II'm right there with you.

But that isn't the way this is being sold. Article after article that's been posted by RE and Knarf and yourself talk about undue burdens and  high defaults, but hide the facts of who is defaulting, why they're defaulting, and how much they owe.

I don't think most people read any of those bullshit articles and draw the conclusion that most flagship state universities and and all Ivy League Schools, both of which people borrow a ton of money to attend, have very low default rates. The articles make it sound like college grads are all defaulting, which fits the vote pandering model of the Democratic Party.

The Republican Party has their own vote pandering  model, of course. Never said they didn't.

Title: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 02, 2019, 04:56:56 AM
Here's a cohort owing a significant portion of the aggregate debt, and I'll warrant it wasn't accumulated at Barber College.  Did you know they can garnisheer your Social Security to pay your Student Loans?  I didn't.  Thank God I declared BK on my remaining student loans before I went out trucking!  How did I do that?  EZ, I had worked up a good credit rating over the years and had a wallet full of credit cards.  I paid off the student loans by taking cash advances on the CCs, THEN I declared BK, Chapter 7.  Unsecured debt there, eh?  lol.   Despite comments to the contrary, I am NOT stupid. The fucking banks didn't even bother showing up at the hearing, my debts were too piddling to bother with for them, but they were killing me.  Never went into debt again after that.

RE

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News May 1, 2019, 6:41 PM
Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"

Last Updated May 1, 2019 8:57 PM EDT

(https://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/05/01/b6cdc053-80a7-476f-bc64-e76628ae40fa/thumbnail/1200x630/0699f89ddfe7b9db0b9e7d48a23634c1/strassmann-life-and-debt-ctm-050119-consolidated-01xcode-mix6-frame-3649.jpg)

America's college loan crisis comes to $1.5 trillion worth of debt. But if you think it's only a young person's problem, think again. Many struggle to pay their monthly minimum, like Seraphina Galante, a 76-year-old social worker in San Diego.

"This is a mountain that I will never be able to climb. I am terrorized," Galante said.

CBS News met Galante on the campus of San Diego State University, where she got her master's degree 19 years ago. She still owes nearly $40,000. Galante is one of more than 3 million people over 60 still paying off college loans. Like her, many went back to improve their job prospects, while others are paying off loans for their kids or grandkids' education.

"I was very confident that ... I would pay it back, you know, in due time," Galante said. "We grow older and then we get more senior. That's reality of life."
strassmann-life-and-debt-ctm-050119-consolidated-01xcode-mix6-frame-3932.jpg
Seraphina Galante CBS News

Galante still has to work part-time as a family caregiving consultant. She showed CBS News her payment history, including all of the interest.

Galante had to pause making payments four times for various life issues. But the bigger issue is she got older. Her monthly payment of $176 is income-based. That doesn't even cover the interest.

"I don't see the justice or even the logic. It's not gonna reduce, ever. And the emotional part of it that it's there. That it's always gonna be there," Galante said.

Americans age 60 and older owe more than $86 billion in unpaid college loans. Forty percent of them 65 and older are in default, according to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Many of them now have their Social Security benefits garnished to pay off their student debt.

    Millennials struggle under the burden of student loan debt: "I had a panic attack"
    Student loan debt crisis: How did we get here?

"The fastest growing segment of student loan borrowers are actually older Americans," said Seth Frotman, a student debt expert who used to work at the CFPB.

He said the federal government does not cut seniors a break.

"They will literally seize your Social Security benefit," Frotman said. "Because of student loans we are literally driving tens of thousands of older Americans into poverty."

Galante said she keeps close tabs on her budget. But someone who has spent a lifetime helping others could use a little help herself.

"This will follow me to the grave," she said.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 02, 2019, 05:47:03 AM
Out of all the many stupid conduit scheme programs that are eligible for student loans, only the 12 very worst are on double secret probation for their 30 and 40 percent default rates, and none have been cut off.

Wanna guess? Stanford? MIT? Chicago Institute of Art?.

Sanctions

Schools with high default rates may lose their eligibility to participate in federal student aid programs. This year, 12 schools are subject to sanctions, including one public, two private, and nine proprietary institutions.

Those schools include:

CA—Corona—Advance Beauty Techs Academy

FL—Oakland Park—Florida Academy of Health and Beauty

IL—Chicago—Larry's Barber College

KY—Cumberland—Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College

MA—Worcester—Rob Roy Academy

NY—Niagara Falls—Cheryl Fell's School of Business

NY—Rochester—Sharp Edge Barber Institute

ND—Bismarck—United Tribes Technical College

PA—Lancaster—Champ's Barber School

PR—Saint Just—Theological University of the Caribbean

TN—Madison—Nashville Barber and Style Academy

WI—Beloit—First Class Cosmetology School

Surprise!!!! They DO still call it Barber College. Isn't that quaint?

Hey, I wanna get a loan and check in at the Theological Seminary of the Caribbean. Major in Surfing with Jesus.[ /color]


https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls (https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/national-student-loan-cohort-default-rate-falls)

Just being this.

"Champ's Barber College" has a nice ring to it. Although a post doc at Theological Seminary of the Caribbean sounds even better.

I'm going to make you mad again, or sad, if you're more honest.

The God's honest truth is that these extremely predatory conduit-scheme, for-profit diploma mills, that just funnel borrowed money from student loans into the pocket of unscrupulous con artists?

They are mostly minority-owned businesses that prey on persons of color. They spend a lot of money on recruiting, get the money up front. Half the students don't even finish, and while they're in school they serve as free labor in sweat shops.

Take Larry Roberts Jr. of Larry's Barber College, in Chicago. He has a shit ton of very inspiring utubes (they won't embed) that make him sound like a saint. He goes to Cook County Jail and trains inmates for free (but he'd love for you to contribute to his ongoing crowd-funding campaign).

The truth is that they charge people over 14K, get the money, and only half finish. Of the half that do finish, they can't even place 25% of the grads.

Full-Time Barber Day Program
14 months
30 hours per week
9am to 4pm
(less 1hr. lunch)

For the first two months

30 hours per week

8:30am to 4:00pm

(less 1hr. lunch)

Sat 12:00pm to 5:00pm

16 months
25 hours per week
9am to 2pm

For the first two months

25 hours per week

8:30am to 2:30pm

(less 1hr. lunch)

Sat 12:00pm to 5:00pm

Full-time Barber Evening Program
16 months
25 hours per week
3pm to 8pm

Full-time Barber Instructor Program
1,000 Hours

Full-time Barber Instructor Program
500 Hours

We accept Post-9/11 GI Bill!

The Post-9/11 GI Bill provides financial support for education and housing to individuals with at least 90 days of aggregate military service after September 10, 2001. Post-9/11 education benefits can be used to pay for full tuition and associated fees. Approved education benefits include graduate and undergraduate degrees and vocational/technical training.

Tuition
Tuition: $13,380.00

Books & Supplies: $750.00

Application Fee* (out of pocket): $100.00

Total:  $14,230.00
Tuition Instructor under 3 years: $6,285.00

Books & Supplies: $400.00

Application Fee* (out of pocket): $100.00
Plus half of the kit $200.00 due
at registration

Total: $6,785.00
Tuition Instructor over 3 years: $2930.00

Books & Supplies: $400.00

Application Fee* (out of pocket): $100.00
Plus half of the kit $200.00 due
at registration

Total: $3,430.00
*Application fee is Non-refundable after 5th day of signing enrollment agreement

Hours Of Operations
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday
9am – 5pm

Saturday (All students must attend)
9am – 4pm

Wednesday & Sunday Closed

2016 Annual Report Outcome Rates

Completion 51.30%

Placement 72.88%

Licensure 100.00%

https://larrysbarbercollege.com/tuitions-requirements/ (https://larrysbarbercollege.com/tuitions-requirements/)

Welcome to the real story of student loan defaults. It's an ugly story of exploitation. What really surprises me about this list is that there are no dental assisting schools on it. There are a ton of them, and they fit the conduit model perfectly.

 


Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Eddie on May 02, 2019, 06:30:20 AM
Here's a cohort owing a significant portion of the aggregate debt, and I'll warrant it wasn't accumulated at Barber College.  Did you know they can garnisheer your Social Security to pay your Student Loans?  I didn't.  Thank God I declared BK on my remaining student loans before I went out trucking!  How did I do that?  EZ, I had worked up a good credit rating over the years and had a wallet full of credit cards.  I paid off the student loans by taking cash advances on the CCs, THEN I declared BK, Chapter 7.  Unsecured debt there, eh?  lol.   Despite comments to the contrary, I am NOT stupid. The fucking banks didn't even bother showing up at the hearing, my debts were too piddling to bother with for them, but they were killing me.  Never went into debt again after that.

RE







https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News May 1, 2019, 6:41 PM
Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"

Last Updated May 1, 2019 8:57 PM EDT

(https://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/05/01/b6cdc053-80a7-476f-bc64-e76628ae40fa/thumbnail/1200x630/0699f89ddfe7b9db0b9e7d48a23634c1/strassmann-life-and-debt-ctm-050119-consolidated-01xcode-mix6-frame-3649.jpg)

America's college loan crisis comes to $1.5 trillion worth of debt. But if you think it's only a young person's problem, think again. Many struggle to pay their monthly minimum, like Seraphina Galante, a 76-year-old social worker in San Diego.

"This is a mountain that I will never be able to climb. I am terrorized," Galante said.

CBS News met Galante on the campus of San Diego State University, where she got her master's degree 19 years ago. She still owes nearly $40,000. Galante is one of more than 3 million people over 60 still paying off college loans. Like her, many went back to improve their job prospects, while others are paying off loans for their kids or grandkids' education.

"I was very confident that ... I would pay it back, you know, in due time," Galante said. "We grow older and then we get more senior. That's reality of life."
strassmann-life-and-debt-ctm-050119-consolidated-01xcode-mix6-frame-3932.jpg
Seraphina Galante CBS News

Galante still has to work part-time as a family caregiving consultant. She showed CBS News her payment history, including all of the interest.

Galante had to pause making payments four times for various life issues. But the bigger issue is she got older. Her monthly payment of $176 is income-based. That doesn't even cover the interest.

"I don't see the justice or even the logic. It's not gonna reduce, ever. And the emotional part of it that it's there. That it's always gonna be there," Galante said.

Americans age 60 and older owe more than $86 billion in unpaid college loans. Forty percent of them 65 and older are in default, according to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Many of them now have their Social Security benefits garnished to pay off their student debt.

    Millennials struggle under the burden of student loan debt: "I had a panic attack"
    Student loan debt crisis: How did we get here?

"The fastest growing segment of student loan borrowers are actually older Americans," said Seth Frotman, a student debt expert who used to work at the CFPB.

He said the federal government does not cut seniors a break.

"They will literally seize your Social Security benefit," Frotman said. "Because of student loans we are literally driving tens of thousands of older Americans into poverty."

Galante said she keeps close tabs on her budget. But someone who has spent a lifetime helping others could use a little help herself.

"This will follow me to the grave," she said.

Yes, I did know they can garnish your SS check. You forget, I have children with student loans. You innocent deluded virgin, you.

 And why do you think the Barber Colleges aren't part of this?. I'll bet you they are, but I'd like for you to prove the data supports your closely held belief system for a while. I'm doing too much work here, and you're just sniping and biting my ass, trying to pick my narrative apart, and you really haven't done anything but your usual cut-and paste of sob stories that are designed to do one thing. Obscure the facts.

Do a little research. I'm as right as rain on this, and you won't beat me down.

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

How much truth can you handle Chief? I can post the truth all day, and all the wah, wah sob stories you can post won't change the truth.

100% of the  stuff you guys all post....it's Appeal To Emotion.

Every article is the same. Instead of arguing with me, read more in depth and you will be forced to see I'm right. Do a little critical thinking.

Or  not.

Just keep sweeping  the truth under the rug and keep bullshitting yourselves. I tried to tell you. This is the reason I'm a total skeptic about humanity's chances for survival. 99% of people, including you, will cling stubbornly to lies that make them feel good, and ignore the truth.

This poor old woman, much as I feel for her, is an outlier. She ponied up for an MSW in late middle age and didn't graduate until she was 57 years old, and then went to work (I'm guessing) for the government in one of the shittiest, low paying jobs you can imagine, and one that is known to burn most people out in a few years. I know lots of MSW's.

The ones I feel for more are the one's who co-signed for their kids, which is common.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 02, 2019, 06:56:27 AM
I'm as right as rain on this, and you won't beat me down

I've already beaten you down, you're just too steeped in your ideological POV to realize it.  Declaring yourself victorious persistently doesn't win you a debate.  Also persistently calling me a cut & paste artist is blatantly untrue and just serves to further undermine your credibility.  Most of this argument has been in doing the math for you, which you seem unable to do yourself, not cutting and pasting.

I know most of the loans weren't for Barber College, because I researched how many people actually GO to Barber College.  It's an astoundingly small number and getting smaller because the states don't enforce the regulations and more people are cutting hair without going to Barber School.  The gate keeping there isn't nearly as ironclad as it is in medicine, which actually barbers used to do.

Far as the retired Boomers with debt, that is quite a large figure.  The reason they accumulated it are several, mainly though they went through successive episodes of retraining for other professions if they lost their initial profession somewhere in the last 40 years; or they went to professional school with the belief an advanced degree would leapfrog them into a higher paying job.  When that didn't pan out, they were stuck with the debt.

Your explanation without any evidence that most of the debt is held by people with under $10K in debt who shouldn't have been in college to begin with simply doesn't add up.  Much more likely is most of the debt is held in the hands of people who borrowed average amounts, from $20K to $50K or so.  It's not Barber College graduates who are out there protesting their debt burden, if you look at the demographic of any of those demonstrations, it's by and large young white people.

Finally, don't call me "Chief".  That's a violation of the CoC.  It's said sarcastically in order to make me appear unreasonable, which I am not.  Further use of that term or one like it will get your posting DNFed.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 02, 2019, 08:04:55 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 02, 2019, 10:36:33 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.


What's the problem with the state stepping in and suspending interest payments for Seraphina Galante.  Her payment does not even cover interest but at $176 a month her $40 K gets paid off in less than 20 years.  The problem in not with borrowed money but the usury.  We can help her out.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 02, 2019, 01:47:05 PM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

What's the problem with the state stepping in and suspending interest payments for Seraphina Galante.  Her payment does not even cover interest but at $176 a month her $40 K gets paid off in less than 20 years.  The problem in not with borrowed money but the usury.  We can help her out.

The problem is not with this person in particular. Of course the MSM article isn't designed to provide us with enough detail to evaluate whether she deserves some sort of relief or not - we all know that is not the purpose of such articles. Like Eddie said, it's about appealing to emotion and supporting a broader narrative about the burden of student loans (which I don't think is all wrong).

In general, I would say two things about this - 1) You can't have loans without some interest. There is no reason to lend otherwise. And we need to stop demeaning the population by implying they cannot read a loan contract and understand what they are signing up for. 2) People like her, i.e. seniors with fixed income and huge loans that aren't getting paid down because of interest, are ideal candidates for bankruptcy. They don't even have to worry about the effect on their credit.

Which gets back to my original point - we already have an existing regulatory process that works pretty well to deal with people struggling with burdensome debt. It needs to be tweaked to provide better relief for student loan debt, for sure. We don't need wholesale new legislation, despite what the pandering politicians claim.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 02, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
The thing is we used to have low interest loans for students, even when bank prime was quite high. In 1981 when I started dental school the prime rate was a whopping 20.5% and yet student loans were capped at 8%.

Starting in the Reagan administration the rates have gone steadily up and the loans have been subject to weird fees....in '83 we could borrow 5K/year and then in 84 and 85 (if I remember right) we had  500 taken off the top, but we still had to pay back 5K.

That was the TGSL, which went away completely, to be replaced by higher interest loans with less deferment in the next generation.

And when interest rates fell through the floor after 2008, you could borrow money to buy a car at a credit union for 1.59% but a student loan was still likely to be 6.8 in most circumstances. Most borrowers have paid that rate ever since, with some limited exceptions.

At a time when tuition went up more than double at most colleges, both public and private. (Between 1988 and 2018)

It's actually shameful exploitation of a vulnerable population, young people trying to secure an education, in no position to bargain or shop for rates. 

A horrible path of increasing bad legislation under mostly Republican administrations, although the Clintons were never  friends of struggling students either.

This was simply a free lunch for the banks. No real defensible rationale for it, and not in the country's interest either.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 02, 2019, 06:43:41 PM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

What's the problem with the state stepping in and suspending interest payments for Seraphina Galante.  Her payment does not even cover interest but at $176 a month her $40 K gets paid off in less than 20 years.  The problem in not with borrowed money but the usury.  We can help her out.

The problem is not with this person in particular. Of course the MSM article isn't designed to provide us with enough detail to evaluate whether she deserves some sort of relief or not - we all know that is not the purpose of such articles. Like Eddie said, it's about appealing to emotion and supporting a broader narrative about the burden of student loans (which I don't think is all wrong).

In general, I would say two things about this - 1) You can't have loans without some interest. There is no reason to lend otherwise. And we need to stop demeaning the population by implying they cannot read a loan contract and understand what they are signing up for. 2) People like her, i.e. seniors with fixed income and huge loans that aren't getting paid down because of interest, are ideal candidates for bankruptcy. They don't even have to worry about the effect on their credit.

Which gets back to my original point - we already have an existing regulatory process that works pretty well to deal with people struggling with burdensome debt. It needs to be tweaked to provide better relief for student loan debt, for sure. We don't need wholesale new legislation, despite what the pandering politicians claim.

You can have student loans without interest if the government makes the loan. A comprehensive welfare state with collective bargaining at the national level with workers belonging to lobor unions under restrained capitalism would be a society which would see such loans as a social benefit.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 02, 2019, 07:09:39 PM
You can have student loans without interest if the government makes the loan. A comprehensive welfare state with collective bargaining at the national level with workers belonging to lobor unions under restrained capitalism would be a society which would see such loans as a social benefit.

That would be an improvement, but fundamentally since you need education to succeed within the society, it should be provided as a cost to the society as a whole, as it is from pre-K through HS.  Fact is, a HS education doesn't do jack shit for you anymore, the decent paying jobs in manufacturing have all long since flown the coop to 3rd World countries with lower wages and lower CoL.  In the words of Bruce Springsteen, "Those jobs are gone boys, and they ain't never coming back".

Getting into higher levels of education should be competitive and require success at the lower levels to qualify. However, there shouldn't be gate-keeping in the form of numerical levels of people trained for any given profession.  As many people as qualify should have the training available to them at no cost.

Provision also needs to be made for people who are NOT smart enough to cut the mustard in the competition for further education, and at some point along the line"flunk out".  Just being STOOPID should not consign you to a life of endless poverty and indebtedness.  At one time here in the FSoA there were jobs for these people, working on one of Henry Ford's production lines and so forth.  Deadly boring, mind numbing jobs, but they paid a decent wage.  Remember, fully half the population at any given time has an IQ under 100.  You're going to pay all these folks min wage as Starbucks Baristas?  Sorry, that dog won't hunt.  These folks deserve at least a reasonable standard of living too, despite being STOOPID.  Unless they voted for Trumpovetsky, in which case they can eat Dog Food and live in Favelas as far as I am concerned. lol.

I am a person who could cut the mustard every step of the way.  I never took a gate-keeping test I didn't score in the 99.5% Percentile or better, and that includes the SAT, MCAT, LSAT and GRE's in Psychology, Chemistry & Biology.  But just being smart should not be an arbiter of how much money you can make or at least prevent you from having a reasonable standard of living.  I gave it all up, because the whole rat race of making money was offensive to me, I simply couldn't stand it.  It was a choice I live with to this day, and yes sometimes I regret it but not so much I would go back and change much of it if I could.  Most people don't even have such a choice to make though, but they were born into the same society I was and deserve the same consideration I did for being so fucking smart.

In order to accomplish this task,the entire education system needs to be administered by Da Goobermint to benefit the society as a whole, and it should be paid for by taxation of the people who have benefited from that education.

Not that this really matters moving down the pipe here in collapse.  Most of these professions and jobs that you are trained for as a cog in the industrial civilization machine are going the way of the dinosaur.  Chances get better all the time your job will be obsolete before you even graduate these days.  The high incomes some professions get as the result of gate-keeping and government subsidy (see medicare/medicaid for the health care industry) also going the way of the dinosaur, since an increasingly impoverished population simply won't have the money to pay the outrageous fees they charge.  Like the good old days, doctors will be working for chickens.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 03, 2019, 03:57:06 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You lovebirds are absolutely right. "She signed on the dotted line," meaning it's her own damned fault. Moreover, someone should drive to her hours and break her hands, as she clearly hasn't suffered enough.
Title: 🎓 Teachers Begin To See Unfair Student Loans Disappear
Post by: RE on May 03, 2019, 04:05:27 AM
Some GOOD NEWZ on the Student Loan front, for a change.  :icon_sunny:

RE

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/03/711373657/teachers-begin-to-see-unfair-student-loans-disappear (https://www.npr.org/2019/05/03/711373657/teachers-begin-to-see-unfair-student-loans-disappear)

Special Series
The Trouble With TEACH Grants

Teachers Begin To See Unfair Student Loans Disappear

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/05/02/kaitlyn-huckaby-mccollum-82_slide-bd65ec2c639974faf0ae57931802a7baefd65020-s800-c85.jpg)
Kaitlyn McCollum teaches at Columbia Central High School in Tennessee. After being told her TEACH grant paperwork was late, her grants were converted to loans. "I remember going out to the mailbox — I even opened it up at the mailbox — and sheer panic just set in," she says.
Stacy Kranitz for NPR

May 3, 20195:01 AM ET
Heard on Morning Edition
Chris Arnold 2016 square

Chris Arnold
Cory Turner

Victoria Libsack, a teacher at Linus Pauling Middle School in Corvallis, Ore., with students Alan Gallardo, 14, (right) and Victor Hernandez, 14. Libsack taught for three years in a low-income Phoenix school. But after her TEACH grants were converted into more than $20,000 in loans, she took a job at a school that doesn't meet TEACH requirements.
Beth Nakamura for NPR

Nearly 2,300 teachers have just had a mountain of student loan debt lifted off their backs, according to previously unreleased figures from the U.S. Department of Education. The move follows reporting by NPR that exposed a nightmare for public school teachers across the country.

In exchange for agreeing to work in low-income schools, aspiring teachers could get federal Teacher Education Assistance for College and Higher Education (TEACH) grants from the department to help pay their way through college. But those grants were often unfairly turned into loans that teachers had to pay back.

In December, the Education Department proposed a fix. Now, that fix has been expanded, and thousands more teachers are likely to get help.

"We've put teachers who didn't deserve this stress, this pressure, this financial burden in a position that is frightening and confusing," says Education Department acting undersecretary and acting assistant secretary Diane Auer Jones. "I can't give them back those years, and I can't take away the gray hairs and I can't take away the stress. It seems like a small thing to do to say, 'I'm sorry,' but I'm very sorry. And we want to work to fix it and correct it."

Kaitlyn McCollum is one of the teachers who lost her grant money unfairly and, like many of them, her story began with a letter that sent her reeling.

The mailbox

Kaitlyn McCollum teaches at Columbia Central High School in Tennessee. After being told her TEACH grant paperwork was late, her grants were converted to loans. "I remember going out to the mailbox — I even opened it up at the mailbox — and sheer panic just set in," she says.
Stacy Kranitz for NPR

Two years ago, the high school teacher in Columbia, Tenn., walked to the mailbox, pregnant with her first child, and opened an official-looking letter from the Education Department.

"I remember going out to the mailbox — I even opened it up at the mailbox — and sheer panic just set in," McCollum says.

Her federal TEACH grants had been turned into more than $20,000 in loans. The reason: McCollum had narrowly missed a deadline for mailing in some annual paperwork.

She walked inside, sat at the family table beside her husband, A.J., and sobbed.

Not only was this sudden, crushing debt unfair, McCollum later argued to the Education Department, she couldn't afford to pay it on her meager teacher's salary. And she didn't understand why the department wouldn't turn the loans back into grants since she could prove she was teaching, just as she'd promised. She appealed but was told her loans could not possibly be turned back into grants.
Exclusive: Ed Department To Erase Debts Of Teachers, Fix Troubled Grant Program
The Trouble With TEACH Grants
Exclusive: Ed Department To Erase Debts Of Teachers, Fix Troubled Grant Program

McCollum was not alone. NPR's reporting over the past year found that the same thing was happening to thousands of other public school teachers.

The problem at the heart of the TEACH grant story is that small paperwork issues often triggered this catastrophic consequence. In order to qualify for a grant, aspiring teachers agreed to teach for four years in a low-income public school. But the rules also required that teachers send in a form every year to prove they were actually teaching.

The forms were often due over the summer when teachers and principals, who had to sign them, were away on vacation. And if teachers sent in this annual form even one day late, missing a signature or date, or with any other little problem, their TEACH grants would be turned into loans, with interest. And this process was irreversible. Teachers were told their loans could not be converted back to grants.

For two years, the debt haunted McCollum and her young family. They went into forbearance — a brief reprieve but with interest accruing. They even moved to a smaller, less expensive house to prepare for what now seemed inevitable. No one was listening. Fair or not, the debt was growing and would need to be repaid.

And then, just a few Saturdays ago, another letter arrived in the mail. McCollum opened it in the car, her husband driving, their young son Louther chirping in the back seat. A much-needed spring break vacation lay ahead.

"Do you see that word, 'Congratulations!'?" McCollum said, smiled and laughed. It was official: That debt, now $24,000, had finally been turned back into grants.

"You're free baby," her husband A.J. said.

"Two years of us fighting this," McCollum said. "We won," she tells NPR. "We raised our voices and they finally heard us. Disbelief followed by a relief like I have not felt before."

The scale of the problem and the fix

The federal TEACH Grant program was created in 2007 with the best of intentions: to help aspiring teachers, who committed to teach high-need subjects in low-income schools, pay for college. And the program succeeded in attracting bright young teachers to work in some of the nation's most underserved schools. According to the most recent data, roughly 21,000 teachers have successfully completed the program's four-year teaching requirement.

But that compares to 94,000 recipients who have had their grants turned into loans. Many of those conversions were justified — young students who later decided teaching was not for them and didn't complete their required service. But many others were undoubtedly like Kaitlyn McCollum: They have taught as promised but were trapped in the program's administrative quicksand.
Teachers Share Anger, Frustration Over Grants Turned Into Loans
NPR Ed
Teachers Share Anger, Frustration Over Grants Turned Into Loans

In December, after multiple NPR reports on the depth of the TEACH Grant problem, the Education Department announced it would offer relief for any teacher who could prove they had fulfilled — or could still fulfill — their teaching service. Grants that had unfairly become loans because of these minor paperwork problems would, at last, become grants again. The irreversible became reversible.

"From internal reports, from the work that [NPR] did, it was abundantly clear to us that there was a problem with TEACH Grants," says the Education Department's Jones, who served in the same role in 2007, when the TEACH rules were first written. "We realized that there were certain things that seemed like a good idea when we wrote the [regulation], but they were just too cumbersome for students. And unfairly so."

The number of teachers getting help is likely to rise. According to the department, since it rolled out its fix in January nearly 6,000 teachers have applied for relief. So far, nearly 2,300 have been approved for the fix and are getting their loans turned back into grants and fewer than 20 teachers have been denied. In short, the vast majority of teachers who apply for the fix are getting their grants back.

Kaitlyn McCollum with her husband, A.J., and son, Louther, after learning of the Department of Education's decision to help teachers who had lost their TEACH grants because of paperwork problems.
Alexis Marshall/Alexis Marshall for NPR

Expanding the fix

In addition to the department's current relief efforts, advocates have also pushed for an overhaul of the TEACH Grant's rules. That process, known as negotiated rulemaking, recently concluded with something of a surprise: The department agreed to expand its fix to reach even more teachers and to make the program much easier to navigate.

Once these new rules go into effect, TEACH grants can no longer be turned into loans just because of late or incomplete annual paperwork. So that draconian penalty for such a small infraction will disappear.

Libsack works with student Kellen Filker, 14, during a recent lesson on structuring the essay. Under rules changes, Libsack should now have five more years to complete her final year of service. She'll still need to change schools to qualify, but it will mean she won't have to pay upward of $20,000 in loans.
Beth Nakamura for NPR

The department is also committing to help teachers who had their credit hurt when they defaulted on these loans.

But hanging over this process has been one thorny question: what to do about teachers who lost their grants and, as a result, decided to change schools or quit teaching altogether. In other words, they lost their grants, were told there was nothing they could do, and so they moved on with their lives.

"On the phone, honestly, I cried at one point. [Because] I was like, this isn't right. You know, it's not fair," remembers Victoria Libsack, who taught for three years in a low-income, Phoenix school. But after she narrowly missed a paperwork deadline and her grants were converted to loans, Libsack eventually moved to a different state and took a job at a school that doesn't meet TEACH requirements.

Libsack says she's now feeling "hopeful" because her government finally listened. "For me, as a teacher, it's awesome," she says, "because then I can convey that to the students and say, 'Hey, you do have a voice. You are citizens. You do have a role in our government.' "
Beth Nakamura for NPR

The problem for Libsack and teachers like her is that the program requires four years of teaching within an eight-year window. Even with the department's initial fix, Libsack would have very little time to quit her current job, potentially move again, and find a new job in a qualifying school to complete her required service. And some teachers have no time left at all.

In February, Libsack flew to Washington, D.C., to share her story with the government committee that's been tasked with rewriting the rules.

"Living on a teacher's salary at a low-income school, I had just enough to live," Libsack told the committee. "I loved teaching, but I felt overwhelmed and defeated when my TEACH grant was converted."

That rules committee heard Libsack and voted to expand the department's fix to include teachers like her. They agreed to go back and pause the eight-year clock at the time when a teacher's grants were first converted.
Senators To DeVos On TEACH Grant Debacle: 'Urgent That These Mistakes Are Fixed'
NPR Ed
Senators To DeVos On TEACH Grant Debacle: 'Urgent That These Mistakes Are Fixed'

For Libsack, that means she should now have five more years to complete her final year of service. She'll still need to change schools to qualify. That's not ideal, she says, but it will mean she won't have to pay upward of $20,000 in loans. Libsack says she's now feeling "hopeful" because her government finally listened.

"For me, as a teacher, it's awesome," she says, "because then I can convey that to the students and say, 'Hey, you do have a voice. You are citizens. You do have a role in our government.' "

The department's fix has not been entirely smooth. Many teachers have told NPR that some call-center staff seemed unfamiliar with the new rules — and that the paperwork they were sent, even after they got approved, was really confusing.

Some advocates argue the department should do even more for teachers like Libsack. Patrick Llewellyn, an attorney at Public Citizen Litigation Group, says the government should be more flexible with teachers who lost their grants unfairly many years ago. He says it should reduce the number of years they're required to teach in order to satisfy the program's requirements and keep their grants.

"For people who were converted eight, nine, 10 years ago, it is a lot to ask of them [to quit their current job and find another one] if they are doing something completely different," Llewellyn says, especially since they are in this position because of how the program has been mishandled.
Dept. Of Education Fail: Teachers Lose Grants, Forced To Repay Thousands In Loans
NPR Ed
Dept. Of Education Fail: Teachers Lose Grants, Forced To Repay Thousands In Loans

But on this point the department is holding firm with the original terms of the deal: Teachers have to teach for four years.

Perhaps the biggest challenge remaining for the Education Department is one of outreach and communication.

"There is relief available for teachers," says Llewellyn, "but they need to know about it."

Some teachers who were hit with these unfair debts still may not realize they qualify to have them forgiven or refunded if they've already paid them. Many have changed addresses, both physical and email, and may be difficult to find. The department says it is reaching out, to make sure those who need the help know that it's finally there. It also encourages any teachers who think they might qualify to proactively reach out and ask for help.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 03, 2019, 04:15:42 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News May 1, 2019, 6:41 PM
Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
"This will follow me to the grave," she said.



This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

How much truth can you handle Chief? I can post the truth all day, and all the wah, wah sob stories you can post won't change the truth.

100% of the  stuff you guys all post....it's Appeal To Emotion.

[/quote]

Specifically, I am here to call you out on your indictment of this article. What is the flaw with the reporting here? Is it inaccurate? Did the reporter invent Ms. Gigante? Do you think she really doesn't owe the money? Or is it that you find it manipulative? Or merely inconvenient, in that it reminds you that we used to think we had some responsibility for our neighbors and fellow citizens? Admittedly, a foreign concept in the devil-take-the-hindmost Land of the Invisible Hand.

"...wah, wah sob stories." Yep, I guess she just had it coming. She spun the wheel, and she lost.


Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 03, 2019, 04:18:29 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News May 1, 2019, 6:41 PM
Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
"This will follow me to the grave," she said.



This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

How much truth can you handle Chief? I can post the truth all day, and all the wah, wah sob stories you can post won't change the truth.

100% of the  stuff you guys all post....it's Appeal To Emotion.


Specifically, I am here to call you out on your indictment of this article. What is the flaw with the reporting here? Is it inaccurate? Did the reporter invent Ms. Gigante? Do you think she really doesn't owe the money? Or is it that you find it manipulative? Or merely inconvenient, in that it reminds you that we used to think we had some responsibility for our neighbors and fellow citizens? Admittedly, a foreign concept in the devil-take-the-hindmost Land of the Invisible Hand.

"...wah, wah sob stories." Yep, I guess she just had it coming. She spun the wheel, and she lost.
[/quote]
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: AJ on May 03, 2019, 04:30:31 AM
. She spun the wheel, and she lost.

I subject myself to the CBS evening news (if you can call it that) just to see what is happening in the MSM world. I saw this piece and thought the woman profiled was a little unrealistic to get an advanced degree in her 50's. Yeah, I went to Law School in my early 40's and paid cash for it. Was it a good investment - nah, probably not when you consider the time value of money invested and the time I had to take off work for schooling. I probably wouldn't do it again. She made a mistake, she spun the wheel and she lost. Should society pay for her mistake, maybe at some point. It's the system that charges for education that is part of the problem ALONG with the whole notion that education can get you ahead financially in a meritocratically capitalist system. ALL EDUCATION can do is make you more educated.
AJ
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 03, 2019, 04:38:23 AM
the woman profiled was a little unrealistic to get an advanced degree in her 50's.

That brings up another issue, which is age discrimination.  It's less valid for someone in their 50s to go to law school than someone in their 20s?  That's a "mistake" she should pay for for the rest of her life?

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Eddie on May 03, 2019, 07:53:17 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-seniors-owe-billions-in-student-loan-debt-this-will-follow-me-to-the-grave/)

By Mark Strassmann CBS News May 1, 2019, 6:41 PM
Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
"This will follow me to the grave," she said.



This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

How much truth can you handle Chief? I can post the truth all day, and all the wah, wah sob stories you can post won't change the truth.

100% of the  stuff you guys all post....it's Appeal To Emotion.


Specifically, I am here to call you out on your indictment of this article. What is the flaw with the reporting here? Is it inaccurate? Did the reporter invent Ms. Gigante? Do you think she really doesn't owe the money? Or is it that you find it manipulative? Or merely inconvenient, in that it reminds you that we used to think we had some responsibility for our neighbors and fellow citizens? Admittedly, a foreign concept in the devil-take-the-hindmost Land of the Invisible Hand.

"...wah, wah sob stories." Yep, I guess she just had it coming. She spun the wheel, and she lost.
[/quote]

I already said why this piece and EVERY OTHER PIECE I've read here is bogus. They are all simply an Appeal to Emotion.

And you are an emotional guy. It works.

Listen. That woman is an obvious outlier, if you look at the real stats. She is NOT typical of a college grad. Not at all. Not typcial, even, of a college grad with loans to repay.

She IS somewhat typical of a defaulter, because of her age (although it sounds like she is handling here debt fine). Look. In some ways she is exactly like me.

I made a late start. Graduated in my mid 30's and it took me 15 years to get solvent, basically. I will not be debt free until I'm 72, at the earliest. But I wasn't forced to borrow the money I owe, and neither was she. I chose to take on some debt knowing it wouldn't be easy to repay. So did she. Did she think she was going to make big bucks in social work? If she did, she is a moron, but I don't think that. I think she WANTED to be a social worker and probably went into it with her eyes open. She was not tricked.

She is not complaining bitterly as far as I can tell. She is paying up. The journalist, however, looked around and found a poster girl for his message, someone SURE to evoke sympathy from any reader with a heart.

You are accusing me here of not having a heart, basically. That isn't true at all. I just see the spin in this article. The issue is being spun, mightily.

I showed my work (in spite of RE's attempts to tear it down). There is even more evidence I cold put up, lots and lots of it What I'm saying is strongly supported by facts.

None of the nuance here is getting on the page in the MSM. That's important . It's Bernays 101.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 03, 2019, 08:06:39 AM
The journalist, however, looked around and found a poster girl for his message, someone SURE to evoke sympathy from any reader with a heart.

There's something wrong with having a heart? ???  :icon_scratch:

Given the number of people in this situation, said journalist didn't have to look very far.

Quote
Galante is one of more than 3 million people over 60 still paying off college loans.

RE
Title: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: Harden Your Heart
Post by: RE on May 03, 2019, 08:10:44 AM
The journalist, however, looked around and found a poster girl for his message, someone SURE to evoke sympathy from any reader with a heart.

http://www.youtube.com/v/TNFSED77-GM
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Eddie on May 03, 2019, 08:17:23 AM
The journalist, however, looked around and found a poster girl for his message, someone SURE to evoke sympathy from any reader with a heart.

There's something wrong with having a heart? ???  :icon_scratch:

Given the number of people in this situation, said journalist didn't have to look very far.

Quote
Galante is one of more than 3 million people over 60 still paying off college loans.

RE

I HAVE a heart. And it pisses me off mightily to have that questioned, btw. It's a strawman argument here, that anyone who questions this stupid article is heartless.

People over the age of 60 just happen to be the fastest growing segment of student loan borrowers.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. It blow this whole premise of the author's right out of the water.

And yeah, I have a fucking link.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-older-americans-are-facing-a-student-loan-crisis-2017-01-18 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-older-americans-are-facing-a-student-loan-crisis-2017-01-18)

Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 03, 2019, 08:24:39 AM

I HAVE a heart. And it pisses me off mightily to have that questioned, btw

I didn't write the "anyone with a heart" quote, you did.  It pays to choose your words carefully when you post up.

RE
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: K-Dog on May 03, 2019, 10:05:02 AM
2005 to 2015, the number of Americans age 60 or older with one or more student loans quadrupled from about 700,000 to 2.8 million; the share of all student loan borrowers that age more than doubled from 2.7% to 6.4% and their average debt load roughly doubled, from $12,100 to $23,500.

From 2005 to 2015

The number of Americans age 50 and over became the number of Americans age 60 and over.

Was it stupid for a fifty year old who got Goldman Sacked onto the unemployment line to go back to school.  Considering the predicament we are in now  it seems to be yes but the answer really is no. 

It woud take RE's kind of smarts to figure out. 
Quote
'Hey I'll be getting old and slowing down.  People are going to start ignoring me and not giving me jobs.  I might have trouble paying this puppy off.

Knowing they were going to suffer from future AGE DISCRIMINATION is really asking too much.  At age 40 most people did not even know they were complicit with AGE DISCRIMINATION.  Now it is payback time and they learn their lesson, but does usury have to be part of it?  Getting old sucks bad enough.

For me it was the dot com time and I did not have to borrow.  I shot my own wad getting a Masters Degree.  I am the example who succeeded and I get paid more than Seraphina Galante or Victoria Libsack.  I'd still panic at the mailbox though if I were Libsack.

Have I earned it back?  Yes I have.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 03, 2019, 10:29:50 AM
. She spun the wheel, and she lost.

I subject myself to the CBS evening news (if you can call it that) just to see what is happening in the MSM world. I saw this piece and thought the woman profiled was a little unrealistic to get an advanced degree in her 50's. Yeah, I went to Law School in my early 40's and paid cash for it. Was it a good investment - nah, probably not when you consider the time value of money invested and the time I had to take off work for schooling. I probably wouldn't do it again. She made a mistake, she spun the wheel and she lost. Should society pay for her mistake, maybe at some point. It's the system that charges for education that is part of the problem ALONG with the whole notion that education can get you ahead financially in a meritocratically capitalist system. ALL EDUCATION can do is make you more educated.
AJ

Quote
I went to Law School in my early 40's and paid cash for it.

And I have paid cash for most of my education and the tiny loan I did have I had a devil of a time getting out from under.  My ship took a long time to come in.

Having loans at no interest is the way to go with people having to make a minimum payment based on income even if it is only a buck a month.  This would apply to anything over two years free tuition on higher education which is available to all.  No other scholarships are allowed.  The state pays all interest on loans but since they make the loans in the first place that does not really mean anything. 

I have barked.

Fuck Ray-Gun, fuck Thatcher and now fuck Trump and all the bookends in between.  Millionaire politics became Billionaire politics and it is all getting quite old.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 03, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
. She spun the wheel, and she lost.

I subject myself to the CBS evening news (if you can call it that) just to see what is happening in the MSM world. I saw this piece and thought the woman profiled was a little unrealistic to get an advanced degree in her 50's. Yeah, I went to Law School in my early 40's and paid cash for it. Was it a good investment - nah, probably not when you consider the time value of money invested and the time I had to take off work for schooling. I probably wouldn't do it again. She made a mistake, she spun the wheel and she lost. Should society pay for her mistake, maybe at some point. It's the system that charges for education that is part of the problem ALONG with the whole notion that education can get you ahead financially in a meritocratically capitalist system. ALL EDUCATION can do is make you more educated.
AJ

I went to Law School in my early 40's and paid cash for it.

And I have paid cash for most of my education and the tiny loan I did have I had a devil of a time getting out from under.  My ship took a long time to come in.

Having loans at no interest is the way to go with people having to make a minimum payment based on income even if it is only a buck a month.  This would apply to anything over two years free tuition on higher education which is available to all.  No other scholarships are allowed.  The state pays all interest on loans but since they make the loans in the first place that does not really mean anything. 

I have barked.

Fuck Ray-Gun, fuck Thatcher and now fuck Trump and all the bookends in between.  Millionaire politics became Billionaire politics and it is all getting quite old.

When I take over that will be a typical edict.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 04, 2019, 03:24:39 AM

She IS somewhat typical of a defaulter, because of her age (although it sounds like she is handling here debt fine). Look. In some ways she is exactly like me.

I made a late start. Graduated in my mid 30's and it took me 15 years to get solvent, basically. I will not be debt free until I'm 72, at the earliest. But I wasn't forced to borrow the money I owe, and neither was she. I chose to take on some debt knowing it wouldn't be easy to repay. So did she. Did she think she was going to make big bucks in social work? If she did, she is a moron, but I don't think that. I think she WANTED to be a social worker and probably went into it with her eyes open. She was not tricked.

Your experience is not it all predictive for that of others. First of all, you started far younger, and benefited from the built in structural  advantage of being a white male. Which, no matter how furiously you deny it, has you starting at second base, insisting you hit a double. I know that doesn't fit into your own Horatio Alger story, but that's not my problem. (Cue the chorus of, "Nobody ever gave me anything...")

Secondly, you have accuse her of being less than bright for getting a degree in social work. She should have known she wouldn't make any money, and didn't she know anything about burnout? Thus making her stupid. This is the second post in which you have accused her or being stupid. And I can 't fucking stand a bully.

After all, she should have known the poor deserve to suffer, and just the way our crystal cathedral based charlatans tell us, wealth is a direct measure of worth, and God's blessings made evident on this plane, just as the Gospel of Wealth commends. Your attitude towards the poor is evident with all the attitude that drips from your postings. So tell me again about"having a heart." Fuck that noise.

She is not complaining bitterly as far as I can tell. She is paying up. The journalist, however, looked around and found a poster girl for his message, someone SURE to evoke sympathy from any reader with a heart.

You are accusing me here of not having a heart, basically. That isn't true at all. I just see the spin in this article. The issue is being spun, mightily.

The article, which you can NOT refute because the reporting is competent, is correct. What you object to is the fact that it exists to trouble your sleep. Something is being spun here, and it ain't this woman's story.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 04, 2019, 09:21:47 AM
. And I can 't fucking stand a bully.
--------------
 Fuck that noise.

The "fucks" here are unnescessary and are violations of the CoC.  They just serve to escalate the rhetoric into napalm territory.  You made your point without them.  I will let it go this time, but future posting utilizing expletives like this will be DNFed.

RE
Title: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: The Age-ism Problem
Post by: RE on May 04, 2019, 09:58:15 AM
I have 3 experiences with returning to school for further degrees as I got older.

The first one was in my early 30's, I decided to go back to school to get my Masters in Education, as at the time there was much hoopla about there not being enough science teachers.  I was bored with my work as a clinical chemist, which was well beneath my training as a biochemist, and I figured I would be a good teacher since I had so much experience working with kids in gymnastics.  So I spent 2 years getting virtually no sleep as I cruised my Astro Van from the hospital to the school to the gym, catching some Zs as I could on the mattress I had in the back of the van.  I didn't take out further loans for this, but I was still paying on my original loans for my undergrad years.

Teaching was a good new profession to take up in the sense I didn't have too much trouble getting a job even later on in life, but as it turned out I couldn't stand teaching in the public schools.  The bureaucracy was bullshit and the kids in the grades I taught were thoroughly unprepared to learn science as I knew it, so I was mostly doing remediation.  Besides that, they really weren't even interested in the stuff, maybe 3 kids out of 30 in a classroom showed genuine interest.  Teaching is of course a low paid profession, and had I taken out more loans to get that degree, that could have caused me still more problems with debt.

After quitting teaching, I tried again.  This time I figured it would be a good idea to go to Med Skule, so I dropped in to take the MCAT and as usual I nailed the test cold, scoring in the 99th percentile again.  Digging up professors after almost 20 years who remembered me to give me a recommendation wasn't too EZ, but I managed to find 3.  Unfortunately though, unlike the teaching degree I couldn't do that one while still working, so I would have had to take further loans to do it.  Then I got the brilliant idea I would join the Navy, since they were offering to pay for your med skule in return for I think it was a 10 year contract to serve the MIC.  Except guess what?  Before I graduated I would have been over the 35 year old age limit they set, so they wouldn't fund me.  So much for going back to skule to be a doctor like mom always dreamed I would be.

My final experience was just recently and just prior to my accident and becoming a cripple.  It was when LD was contemplating a Nursing career, and I thought, "Hey! I should do that too!"  Good license to have, make extra money at the local hospital picking up weekend shifts, etc.  Guess what happened on that one?  The uni wanted me to RETAKE all the science classes I took at Columbia, because they were 30 years old.  I'm talking fucking freshman chemistry and biology here!  I would have had to pay for those classes before I could even matriculate into the Nursing Major!  And pay for them of course as well.  So, I didn't go back to skule this time to get a Nursing ticket either.  I was about 53 at the time, and no idea if I even could have landed a nursing job at that age, other than as a sub.

Going back to school to drop into a new profession later in life was very dicey even 20 years ago, now it's completely useless as a means to leverage yourself upward in income.  But people are sold constantly that getting more education is their ticket to upward mobility, and many of them buy the idea, going deep into debt to do it.  So this is their fault for buying what the society sold them and signing on the dotted line?  I don't think so.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 04, 2019, 10:06:08 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You lovebirds are absolutely right. "She signed on the dotted line," meaning it's her own damned fault. Moreover, someone should drive to her hours and break her hands, as she clearly hasn't suffered enough.

Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion. It is also not mutually exclusive to fairness and justice.

She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation. These things are central to an ethically functioning society and we undermine them at our own peril.

The American left has now taken the position that we must treat "special" groups of people as if they are absolutely incapable of exerting any control over their own lives, understanding what they are signing up for, thinking for themselves, paying attention to something for more than 5 minutes, and generally just functioning as autonomous individual actors in the world. It's the most demeaning and destructive view we could possibly take of our fellow human beings. And this is not mere opinion, it is well-established scientific fact.

Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 04, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

Where did Jesus say that pearl of wisdom?  I must have missed it, but I am not as conversant with the Bible as you are.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 04, 2019, 11:25:03 AM
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

Where did Jesus say that pearl of wisdom?  I must have missed it, but I am not as conversant with the Bible as you are.

RE

You could also note:

Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

Revealing the alleged JC bromide to be nuts.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 04, 2019, 11:32:04 AM
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

Where did Jesus say that pearl of wisdom?  I must have missed it, but I am not as conversant with the Bible as you are.

RE

Jesus doesn't have to say something for it to be true. Excess compassion is at the root of overbearing parents, often mothers, who raise their kids to be dependent and helpless.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wander-woman/201704/can-you-have-too-much-empathy (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wander-woman/201704/can-you-have-too-much-empathy)
Unbridled empathy can lead to concentrations of the stress hormone cortisol, making it difficult to release the emotions.3 Taking on other people’s feelings so that you live their experience can make you susceptible to feelings of depression or hopelessness.

Not only will this lead to burnout, you can break the bond of trust you were hoping to strengthen. When you embody other people’s emotions, you may feel responsible for relieving their pain. You feel the need to fix their problems and make them feel better.

Unless people want your help, your intrusive reaction will push them away no matter the value of your intention. They might feel less understood. They feel disrespected, undermined, or enfeebled when you interrupt to render aid. The response you believe is "being supportive" could damage their sense of safety and trust. They no longer feel they can fully express themselves with you.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 04, 2019, 11:35:00 AM


Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

This is a flat out lie and you are smart enough to know that you are lying here. I have detailed over and over again, on this thread, what kind of specific, targeted relief people in her position should have available. So either stop lying or try harder to read my posts for comprehension.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 04, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
Everyone has an agenda and the truth just gets trampled.

This is one of many similar narratives that get shaped by the people who own the media. It isn't surprising to me that most people just live their lives, ignore the dire predictions designed to shape their politics, and place zero trust in ether journalism or the authorities who make our decisions for us in the government.

I see more of the same EXACT cut-and-paste going up on this thread, as if 100 of the same propaganda pieces could possibly change one real fact.

It doesn't matter that they can't. They can push me off the page, though, since it does take a fair amount of time to respond to the shrill emotion driven drama that gets flung my way. Quantity trumps quality.

This place is now no better than FB or any of the Web 2.0 herds where everyone has to like and agree, and facts don't come into it much.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 04, 2019, 12:41:08 PM

I see more of the same EXACT cut-and-paste going up on this thread, as if 100 of the same propaganda pieces could possibly change one real fact.

MOAR "cut n' paste" complaints?  Precisely which pastes do you have a problem with and why?  What "real facts" are they changing, or trying to change and not in your opinion changing?  And precisely where are we supposed to get information to discuss besides adding articles?  Surly's Newz aggregation does that, my aggregations do that, and then specific articles applying to specific threads I drop into the appropriate thread.

Sorry you feel "this place is no better than FB."  I think the discussion is a cut above that usually.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 04, 2019, 02:05:05 PM


Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

This is a flat out lie and you are smart enough to know that you are lying here. I have detailed over and over again, on this thread, what kind of specific, targeted relief people in her position should have available. So either stop lying or try harder to read my posts for comprehension.

Hardly a lie much less a flat out one.  This is dismissive and exhibits no compassion:

Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 04, 2019, 04:37:18 PM


Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

This is a flat out lie and you are smart enough to know that you are lying here. I have detailed over and over again, on this thread, what kind of specific, targeted relief people in her position should have available. So either stop lying or try harder to read my posts for comprehension.

Hardly a lie much less a flat out one.  This is dismissive and exhibits no compassion:

Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

It is a simple fact. How you end up concluding this statement of fact "exhibits no compassion" or that I am "committing to giving her no relief whatsoever" just exhibits your own warped value structure.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: K-Dog on May 04, 2019, 07:22:40 PM


Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

This is a flat out lie and you are smart enough to know that you are lying here. I have detailed over and over again, on this thread, what kind of specific, targeted relief people in her position should have available. So either stop lying or try harder to read my posts for comprehension.

Hardly a lie much less a flat out one.  This is dismissive and exhibits no compassion:

Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

It is a simple fact. How you end up concluding this statement of fact "exhibits no compassion" or that I am "committing to giving her no relief whatsoever" just exhibits your own warped value structure.

Describing me as warped doubles down on your divisiveness dismissiveness and elitism.  I still think she should pay on the principle but the interest should be waved.  I'm sorry if that is not punitive enough for you.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 05, 2019, 04:11:33 AM


Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

Yet Ashvin is 100% committed to giving her no relief whatever.  But if almost anything in excess is bad then 100% refusal to help is horrible.

This is a flat out lie and you are smart enough to know that you are lying here. I have detailed over and over again, on this thread, what kind of specific, targeted relief people in her position should have available. So either stop lying or try harder to read my posts for comprehension.

Hardly a lie much less a flat out one.  This is dismissive and exhibits no compassion:

Quote
She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation.

It is a simple fact. How you end up concluding this statement of fact "exhibits no compassion" or that I am "committing to giving her no relief whatsoever" just exhibits your own warped value structure.

Describing me as warped doubles down on your divisiveness dismissiveness and elitism.  I still think she should pay on the principle but the interest should be waved.  I'm sorry if that is not punitive enough for you.

So you AGREE that she made a promise, has a responsibility to fulfill an obligation, i.e. pay back the principle loan, yet you claim I am dismissive and without compassion when I say the exact same thing. I take it back - your value structure is not warped, you are just confused.

As I stated clearly in my first post on this, I don't claim to know what relief she deserves without more detail. I would be fine getting rid of the entire loan balance for some people depending on the circumstances.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 05, 2019, 05:41:06 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You lovebirds are absolutely right. "She signed on the dotted line," meaning it's her own damned fault. Moreover, someone should drive to her hours and break her hands, as she clearly hasn't suffered enough.

Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion. It is also not mutually exclusive to fairness and justice.

She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation. These things are central to an ethically functioning society and we undermine them at our own peril.

The American left has now taken the position that we must treat "special" groups of people as if they are absolutely incapable of exerting any control over their own lives, understanding what they are signing up for, thinking for themselves, paying attention to something for more than 5 minutes, and generally just functioning as autonomous individual actors in the world. It's the most demeaning and destructive view we could possibly take of our fellow human beings. And this is not mere opinion, it is well-established scientific fact.

I needed a good laugh this morning.

Quote
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

(https://image.ibb.co/edtNLv/Refugees_in_a_Christian_Country.jpg)

We've seen you quote Jesus's teachings at some length and with boundless hypocrisy in these pages. Help yo0urself to a little Matthew 5:3-12 this fine Sunday morning.

I am always amused when a card-carrying member of the drooling right attempts to characterize what "the American left" takes in terms of positions or opinions. Your opinion is DOA, bubble-boy. If you actually knew ANYTHING about the left, you would know that if three leftists get together, there are generally four or five opinions in play.

I wonder this: If, as you state, "She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation," can you not say the same things about those who file for bankruptcy? Did they not sign on the dotted line, and make similar promises? How does not the process of negotiating their debts away not result in undermining one of those "things are central to an ethically functioning society?"

Perhaps we should re-institute debtor's prisons. Private prison corporations always benefit from a fresh supply of prison slave labor available for subcontract.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 05, 2019, 07:15:26 AM
I wonder this: If, as you state, "She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation," can you not say the same things about those who file for bankruptcy? Did they not sign on the dotted line, and make similar promises? How does not the process of negotiating their debts away not result in undermining one of those "things are central to an ethically functioning society?"

As long as they pay Watson his fee, signing on the dotted line is negotiable.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 05, 2019, 09:16:33 AM

This kind of article is MSM Bernaysian flavor of the day. You should know better. She signed on the dotted line. I could have, but I declined.

This is a huge factor the "progressives" calling for loan forgiveness across the board love to ignore. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You lovebirds are absolutely right. "She signed on the dotted line," meaning it's her own damned fault. Moreover, someone should drive to her hours and break her hands, as she clearly hasn't suffered enough.

Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion. It is also not mutually exclusive to fairness and justice.

She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation. These things are central to an ethically functioning society and we undermine them at our own peril.

The American left has now taken the position that we must treat "special" groups of people as if they are absolutely incapable of exerting any control over their own lives, understanding what they are signing up for, thinking for themselves, paying attention to something for more than 5 minutes, and generally just functioning as autonomous individual actors in the world. It's the most demeaning and destructive view we could possibly take of our fellow human beings. And this is not mere opinion, it is well-established scientific fact.

I needed a good laugh this morning.

Quote
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

(https://image.ibb.co/edtNLv/Refugees_in_a_Christian_Country.jpg)

People without good arguments always feel the need to post pictures with captions. You missed your calling hosting 30 second segments of political pundits on CNN.

Quote
We've seen you quote Jesus's teachings at some length and with boundless hypocrisy in these pages. Help yourself to a little Matthew 5:3-12 this fine Sunday morning.

I am always amused when a card-carrying member of the drooling right attempts to characterize what "the American left" takes in terms of positions or opinions. Your opinion is DOA, bubble-boy. If you actually knew ANYTHING about the left, you would know that if three leftists get together, there are generally four or five opinions in play.

Jesus said, "therefore a man shall leave his mother and father and hold fast to his wife..."

The extensive welfare state championed by the left plays the same role as an over-protective mother who never wants her son to leave home or never thinks any woman is good enough. These policies on the left create an imprisoned underclass of citizenry who never grows out of playing video games and living in America's basement, and this is exactly what many overbearing people on the left want. The farther out you go on the leftist spectrum, the worse it gets. Just look at the "all star" cast of Democratic presidential candidates we have been given.

Quote
I wonder this: If, as you state, "She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation," can you not say the same things about those who file for bankruptcy? Did they not sign on the dotted line, and make similar promises? How does not the process of negotiating their debts away not result in undermining one of those "things are central to an ethically functioning society?"

Perhaps we should re-institute debtor's prisons. Private prison corporations always benefit from a fresh supply of prison slave labor available for subcontract.

Simple - like I said before, almost anything in excess is bad, i.e. everything is a balancing act. There must be a relief valve which allows some flexibility for people whose circumstances have dramatically changed since they signed on the dotted line. When debt obligations become too rigid and onerous, leaving a lot of people stuck at zero doesn't do individuals or society any good.

Of course people who are not familiar with the bankruptcy system usually have the wrong impression of it. The process itself comes with a good amount of personal responsibility for the filers. They must once again sign on the dotted line, this time under penalty of perjury (federal crime), swearing that the extensive financial information they are providing to the Court is true and accurate to the best of their knowledge. They must provide a good amount of documentation, sometimes even filing monthly financial reports, and sometimes make a 3-5 year commitment to a process of reorganizing/repaying debts.

Bringing it back to Jesus, as you guys seem to like on this thread, it tracks the concepts of repentance and redemption quite well. A bunch of their financial mistakes are laid bare and they must humbly commit to and put effort into a process that, if done properly, will result in the forgiveness of most of their debts. Obviously it's not a perfect system and there are many parts which could be improved. Conducting a dialogue around what can be improved is much better than shouting down people you disagree with and claiming they simply lack your profound sense of compassion.
Title: 🎓 The student debt crisis isn't what you think it is
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 01:49:02 AM
We have some more stats to work with!

about 89 percent of dependents and 71 percent of independents who receive an undergraduate degree accumulate less than $40,000 in debt; almost half of graduate degree recipients have piled up more than $60,000 in debt (with 17 percent taking on $100,000).

About a third of education debt is held by the richest 25 percent of households, much of it for degrees in medicine, law and business.


RE

https://thehill.com/opinion/education/442170-the-student-debt-crisis-isnt-what-you-think-it-is

The student debt crisis isn't what you think it is

(https://thehill.com/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_small_article/public/cash_061915getty.jpg?itok=yyN3a0ze)
© Getty Images

In 2019, more than 44 million Americans collectively owe $1.5 trillion in student loans. Surpassing credit cards and auto loans, student debt is now the second-highest consumer debt category, behind only home mortgages. What’s more, 11.4 percent of student borrowers are more than 90 days delinquent on their payments; 5.1 million borrowers have defaulted.

The media is awash in stories about America’s "out-of-control" student loan crisis. Politicians agree that skyrocketing student debt is a serious problem but disagree on solutions. Claiming that federal government loan guarantees encourage colleges and universities to raise tuition, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos wants to limit lending. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has proposed the College for All Act to eliminate undergraduate tuition at public universities for students from households making less than $125,000 per year, with the federal government paying two-thirds of the cost and the states picking up the remaining third. Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s (D-Mass.) plan, paid for with a tax on households with an annual income in excess of $50 million, guarantees every student the opportunity to attend a two- or four-year college without paying tuition and fees — and eliminates up to $50,000 in debt for students in households with an annual income of less than $250,000.

These initiatives are almost certain to be debated during the 2020 presidential campaign. A national dialogue, however, should be grounded in a fact-based analysis of student debt. Here are seven things Americans should know.

1) The debt crisis is best understood by dividing borrowers into three groups: students financially dependent on their parents, independent students (who are more likely to be older, attend college part time and work full time), and graduate and professional school students. In “Game of Loans,” Beth Akers and Matthew M. Chingos reveal that for dependent undergraduates, the lifetime limit on borrowing set by the federal government is less than $35,000. For independent undergraduates, it’s less than $60,000. But graduate and professional students can borrow up to the full price of attendance. Not surprisingly, then, about 89 percent of dependents and 71 percent of independents who receive an undergraduate degree accumulate less than $40,000 in debt; almost half of graduate degree recipients have piled up more than $60,000 in debt (with 17 percent taking on $100,000).

2) While acknowledging the profound economic hardship some borrowers face, Akers and Chingos report that the median monthly payment of student loans has remained essentially flat at (a manageable) 3 percent or 4 percent of earnings for about 20 years. Default rates, of course, are higher during recessions and lower during periods of economic growth.

3) Affluent Americans have made extensive use of federal loans, which are available to any student enrolled at least half time in an accredited institution. About a third of education debt is held by the richest 25 percent of households, much of it for degrees in medicine, law and business.

4) Although media stories focus on six-figure liabilities, most distressed borrowers — and defaulters — have relatively small debt balances. They have difficulty repaying loans because they did not complete a degree, do not have a high-paying job and cannot get financial assistance from family members. These days, fewer than 60 percent of students who enroll in a four-year college or university earn a bachelor’s degree in six years; completion rates at two-year colleges are less than 30 percent. A recent study found that 34 percent of borrowers who dropped out of school with $1,000 to $5,000 in debt in 2009 defaulted within five years.

5) Much of the increase in defaults over the last decade comes from for-profit institutions. University of Phoenix students, for example, owed $35.5 billion to the federal government in 2014. By then, 45 percent of those who entered repayment in 2009 had defaulted, with only 1 percent of this group’s debt repaid. Four-year public and private undergraduate colleges and graduate schools, by contrast, reported default rates below — and often well below — 10 percent.

6) Higher tuition is, indeed, responsible for some of the increase in student debt. That said, per-student state appropriations to colleges and universities have neither kept up with inflation nor dropped in the 21st century. In 1975, states appropriated 58 percent of the cost of their public universities; in 2019, state support has dropped to 37 percent.

7) In 1981, Akers and Chingos point out, loans passed grants as the dominant form of student aid. These days, the ratio of loan to grant dollars is about 3-to-1. For every Pell dollar granted to a low-income student, the federal government spends about 55 cents on education tax credits, which go to middle-class and affluent families.

This context, in my judgment, should shape the questions we ask about the nature and impact of the student debt "crisis" and options going forward.

Should "college for all" become the law of the land? If not, what is the optimum mix of loans and grants for qualified students from lower-income families? Is $25,550 of student debt, the current average at public colleges, appropriate or too much? Should wealthy students be eligible for low-interest federal loans? Should loan policies for medical, law and business students, who have substantial earning potential, be revisited?

Should loan repayments be set each year as a percentage of current income? Should loans be renewed (or not) each year based on a grade-point average or some other criterion related to progress toward a degree? Should rates of graduation be a significant factor in awarding or withdrawing accreditation from public, private, and for-profit colleges and universities?

Most importantly, student lending policies should be judged by their capacity to achieve a core principle: access to higher education for all talented students, regardless of their ability to pay.

Glenn C. Altschuler is the Thomas and Dorothy Litwin Professor of American Studies at Cornell University, and the co-author (with Stuart Blumin) of Rude Republic: Americans and Their Politics in the Nineteenth Century.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 06, 2019, 04:55:35 AM

Quote
Almost anything in excess is bad, including compassion.

(https://image.ibb.co/edtNLv/Refugees_in_a_Christian_Country.jpg)

People without good arguments always feel the need to post pictures with captions. You missed your calling hosting 30 second segments of political pundits on CNN.

That is just "totes adorbs," as the young people stay. You are just so cute.

Quote
We've seen you quote Jesus's teachings at some length and with boundless hypocrisy in these pages. Help yourself to a little Matthew 5:3-12 this fine Sunday morning.

I am always amused when a card-carrying member of the drooling right attempts to characterize what "the American left" takes in terms of positions or opinions. Your opinion is DOA, bubble-boy. If you actually knew ANYTHING about the left, you would know that if three leftists get together, there are generally four or five opinions in play.

Jesus said, "therefore a man shall leave his mother and father and hold fast to his wife..."

The extensive welfare state championed by the left plays the same role as an over-protective mother who never wants her son to leave home or never thinks any woman is good enough. These policies on the left create an imprisoned underclass of citizenry who never grows out of playing video games and living in America's basement, and this is exactly what many overbearing people on the left want. The farther out you go on the leftist spectrum, the worse it gets. Just look at the "all star" cast of Democratic presidential candidates we have been given.

Having exactly WHAT to do with the discussion? Holy Non-Sequitur, Batman! the fact that you can squat and deposit a puddle of right wing bloviation has already been abundantly observed. And ignored. All problems in the US stem from the fact that non everyone is quite as obsequious in extreme right wing taint-nuzzling as you. We get it.

Quote
I wonder this: If, as you state, "She made a promise and took responsibility to fulfill an obligation," can you not say the same things about those who file for bankruptcy? Did they not sign on the dotted line, and make similar promises? How does not the process of negotiating their debts away not result in undermining one of those "things are central to an ethically functioning society?"

Perhaps we should re-institute debtor's prisons. Private prison corporations always benefit from a fresh supply of prison slave labor available for subcontract.

Simple - like I said before, almost anything in excess is bad, i.e. everything is a balancing act. There must be a relief valve which allows some flexibility for people whose circumstances have dramatically changed since they signed on the dotted line. When debt obligations become too rigid and onerous, leaving a lot of people stuck at zero doesn't do individuals or society any good.

Of course people who are not familiar with the bankruptcy system usually have the wrong impression of it. The process itself comes with a good amount of personal responsibility for the filers. They must once again sign on the dotted line, this time under penalty of perjury (federal crime), swearing that the extensive financial information they are providing to the Court is true and accurate to the best of their knowledge. They must provide a good amount of documentation, sometimes even filing monthly financial reports, and sometimes make a 3-5 year commitment to a process of reorganizing/repaying debts.

Bringing it back to Jesus, as you guys seem to like on this thread, it tracks the concepts of repentance and redemption quite well. A bunch of their financial mistakes are laid bare and they must humbly commit to and put effort into a process that, if done properly, will result in the forgiveness of most of their debts. Obviously it's not a perfect system and there are many parts which could be improved. Conducting a dialogue around what can be improved is much better than shouting down people you disagree with and claiming they simply lack your profound sense of compassion.


Thanks for the primer on bankruptcy. Your non-response to the obvious hypocrisy is also here to observe and admire. I'll not speak for Jesus, because his words speak for themselves, and they have little to do with your twistings. John of Wallan has it correct elsewhere in the recent Forum. "Even the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes."
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Ashvin on May 06, 2019, 05:21:35 AM

Having exactly WHAT to do with the discussion? Holy Non-Sequitur, Batman!


It has everything to do with radical leftists like you ignoring all the data, facts, arguments posted here about student loans and just screaming bloody murder whenever any aspect of the welfare state is challenged. Respect for personal contractual obligations is anathema to your virtue signaling about "compassion" for the poor student loan debtors.

This is not a discussion - it's your endless drooling of anti-conservative ideological platitudes. We probably agree on a fair amount about student loan debt relief but you're so caught up in the leftist echo chamber that you refuse to listen to anything which comes from outside of it.

Quote
Thanks for the primer on bankruptcy. Your non-response to the obvious hypocrisy is also here to observe and admire

The Cult of the Radical Left has really done a number on you, man. I explained exactly why it is not hypocrisy - why we can have respect for contractual obligations AND debt relief mechanisms such as bankruptcy (the ancient Hebrews did this balancing quite well) - but it's as if you didn't read a single word. That's why you can't come up with any rebuttals. Maybe it's time you check into Rehab and go on a Vox Detox cleanse.
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 05:28:16 AM

It has everything to do with radical leftists like you ignoring all the data, facts, arguments posted here about student loans

I just posted up still more data re: Student Loans and who owes the majority of the debt, and it ain't poor darkies who went to Barber School.  In addition, I went through a detailed analysis of the math on this, to which the right wing of this website did not respond.  The major debt holders are, you guessed it, children of RICH PEOPLE 🤑!  lol.

Who is ignoring the facts here, hmm?  The Radical Right populating this website.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave"
Post by: Surly1 on May 06, 2019, 06:47:37 AM

Having exactly WHAT to do with the discussion? Holy Non-Sequitur, Batman!


It has everything to do with radical leftists like you ignoring all the data, facts, arguments posted here about student loans and just screaming bloody murder whenever any aspect of the welfare state is challenged. Respect for personal contractual obligations is anathema to your virtue signaling about "compassion" for the poor student loan debtors.

This is not a discussion - it's your endless drooling of anti-conservative ideological platitudes. We probably agree on a fair amount about student loan debt relief but you're so caught up in the leftist echo chamber that you refuse to listen to anything which comes from outside of it.

Quote
Thanks for the primer on bankruptcy. Your non-response to the obvious hypocrisy is also here to observe and admire

The Cult of the Radical Left has really done a number on you, man. I explained exactly why it is not hypocrisy - why we can have respect for contractual obligations AND debt relief mechanisms such as bankruptcy (the ancient Hebrews did this balancing quite well) - but it's as if you didn't read a single word. That's why you can't come up with any rebuttals. Maybe it's time you check into Rehab and go on a Vox Detox cleanse.

I read everything you post here; I simply reject your analysis where it takes leave of the facts. Where I refute, or call into question your boundless hypocrisy, you ignore.

Which I will now do with you, for the benefit of others on this Forum. With a reminder that the stink of Trumpism will NEVER wash off.

As vis a vis the ancient Hebrews and their relation to debt burdens, I ardently await the Day of Jubilee.
Title: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: A $1.5 Trillion Crisis
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 10:53:42 AM
Found the stats in question!  :icon_sunny:  From Forbes, bastion of Capitalista financial reporting.

Look at the distribution of debt by amount owed table and multiply out.  You can see where the majority of the debt lies.

RE

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2018/06/13/student-loan-debt-statistics-2018/#287cf9867310 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2018/06/13/student-loan-debt-statistics-2018/#287cf9867310)

Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: A $1.5 Trillion Crisis

 

Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: A $1.5 Trillion Crisis

Zack Friedman
Shutterstock

Shutterstock

Student loan debt is now the second highest consumer debt category - behind only mortgage debt - and higher than both credit cards and auto loans.

According to Make Lemonade, there are more than 44 million borrowers who collectively owe $1.5 trillion in student loan debt in the U.S. alone. The average student in the Class of 2016 has $37,172 in student loan debt.

The latest student loan debt statistics for 2018 show how serious the student loan debt crisis has become - for borrowers across all demographics and age groups.

If you are a student loan borrower, the following student loan debt statistics can help you make more informed decisions regarding student loan refinance, student loan consolidation, student loan repayment and student loan forgiveness.

Student Loan Statistics: Overview

Total Student Loan Debt: $1.52 trillion

 

Total U.S. Borrowers With Student Loan Debt: 44.2 million

Student Loan Delinquency Or Default Rate: 10.7% (90+ days delinquent)

Total Increase In Student Loan Debt In Most Recent Quarter: $29 billion

New Delinquent Balances (30+ days): $32.6 billion

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New Delinquent Balances - Seriously Delinquent (90+ days): $31 billion

(Source: As of 1Q 2018, Federal Reserve & New York Federal Reserve)


States With The Most Student Loan Debt

Not surprisingly, states with larger populations have higher aggregate student loan debt. California, Florida, Texas and New York are among the four highest states for total student loan debt outstanding among resident borrowers.

California, Florida, Texas and New York represent more than 20% of all U.S. student loan borrowers.

uncaptioned
Source: Enterprise Data Warehouse
High Student Loan Debt States & Low Student Loan Debt States

New Hampshire has the highest average student loan debt per student ($36,367) from the Class of 2016.

Utah has the lowest average student loan debt per student ($19,975) from the Class of 2016.

uncaptioned
The Institute For College Access & Success
Student Loan Debt Per Capita In Select U.S. States

In the U.S., as of 2016, the average student loan debt per capita is $4,920. Pennsylvania, New York and Michigan have among the highest student loan debt per capita in the nation.

Arizona: $4,760

California: $4,160

Florida: $4,480

Michigan: $5,330

New York: $5,570

Ohio: $5,700

Pennsylvania: $5,690

Texas: $4,510

Distribution Of Student Loan Borrowers By Balance

As of 2018, more than 42 million student loan borrowers have student loan debt of $100,000 or less.

More than 2 million student loan borrowers have student loan debt greater than $100,000, with 415,000 of that total holding student loan debt greater than $200,000.

The largest concentration of student loan debt is $10,000 - $25,000, which accounts for 12.4 million student loan borrowers.

uncaptioned
New York Federal Reserve
Total Student Loan Balances By Age Group

Over the past five years, student loan debt balances have grown across each age category.

On a percentage basis, the largest increase in student loan debt has come from a surprising age group: 60 to 69-year-olds, who have experienced an 71.5% increase in student loan debt. However, on a dollar basis, this age group represents a $35.6 billion increase over the same period, which is the lowest increase among all age groups.

On a dollar basis, the highest increase in student loan debt is among 30 to 39-year-olds, who as a group now hold over $461 billion in student loans. On a percentage basis, the amount of student loan debt held by 30-39 year-olds has increased 30.2% over the past five years.

uncaptioned
Source: Federal Reserve Bank of New York Consumer Credit Panel / Equifax
Number Of Student Loan Borrowers By Age Group

The largest concentration of student loan borrowers is under 30-years-old, followed by the 30-39 age group.

Therefore, there are 29.1 million student loan borrowers under the age of 39, with this group representing approximately 65% of all student loan borrowers.

As of 2017, here is the breakdown of student loan borrowers by age.

< 30-years-old: 16.8 million

30-39: 12.3 million

40-49: 7.3 million

50-59: 5.2 million

60+: 3.2 million

Student Loan Debt Outstanding By Student Loan Program

Over 33 million student loan borrowers hold approximately $1.1 billion in Direct Loans. Another 14.5 million student loan borrowers hold $301 billion in Federal Family Education Loans (FFEL).

Direct Loans: $1,066.8 billion (33.3 million borrowers)

Federal Family Education Loans (FFEL): $301.1 billion (14.5 million borrowers)

Perkins Loans: $7.6 billion (2.5 million borrowers)

TOTAL: $1,375.5 billion


Student Loan Debt Outstanding By Student Loan Type

Stafford Subsidized: $272.2 billion (29.6 million borrowers)

 

Stafford Unsubsidized: $463.3 billion (28.4 million borrowers)

Stafford Combined: $735.5 billion (33.0 million unique borrowers)

Grad PLUS: $59.6 billion (1.2 million borrowers)

Parent PLUS: $83.7 billion (3.5 million borrowers)

Perkins: $7.6 billion (2.5 million borrowers)

Consolidation: $489.0 billion (12.0 million borrowers)


Student Loan Debt Statistics By Loan Status For Direct Loans

Approximately $600 billion in Direct Loans across 17.8 million student loan borrowers are in student loan repayment. Approximately 11 million student loan borrowers are in student loan deferment, student loan forbearance or student loan default.

Student Loans In School: $133.5 billion (7.4 million borrowers)

Student Loans In Repayment: $600.0 billion (17.8 million borrowers)

Student Loans In Deferment: $103.0 billion (3.3 million borrowers)

Student Loans in Forbearance: $108.3 billion borrowers (2.6 million borrowers)

Student Loans In Default: $88.4 billion (4.7 million borrowers)

Student Loans In Grace Period: $25.9 billion borrowers (1.2 million borrowers)


Student Loan Debt Statistics By Repayment Plan For Direct Loans

There are 12.8 million borrowers with $233.5 billion of student loan debt in the Level Student Loan Repayment Plan (student loan repayment in 10 years or less), which represents the largest concentration of borrowers in student loan repayment.

The second most concentrated group of borrowers is enrolled in Income-Based Repayment (IBR) at $192.0 billion and 3.6 million borrowers.

Level Repayment Plan  (< 10 years): $233.5 billion (12.8 million borrowers)

Level Repayment Plan (> 10 years): $79.1 billion (1.8 million borrowers)

Graduated Repayment Plan (< 10 years): $88.3 billion (3.3 million borrowers)

Graduated Repayment Plan (> 10 years): $14.3 billion (0.3 million borrowers)

Income-Contingent Repayment (ICR) Plan: $27.6 billion (0.6 million borrowers)

Income-Based Repayment (IBR) Plan: $192.0 billion (3.6 million borrowers)

Pay As You Earn (PAYE) Plan: $68.3 billion (1.2 million borrowers)

Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) Plan: $108.8 billion (2.0 million borrowers)


Servicer Portfolio By Repayment Plan

 

As of December 31, 2017, AES/PHEAA (otherwise known as FedLoan Servicing) and Navient service the largest portfolios of student loans in repayment in the U.S. FedLoan Servicing is the largest servicer of federal direct and Federal Family Education Loans.

The most popular student loan repayment plan is the Level Repayment Plan, which means student loan repayment in less than 10 years, followed by REPAYE (Revised Pay As You Earn).

uncaptioned
National Student Loan Data System


Other Important Student Loan Debt Statistics

In addition, there are several other startling statistics regarding the state of student loan debt:

  • Nearly seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and non-profit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt.
  • In 2012, 1.3 million students graduated with student loan debt.
  • In 2012, 66% graduated from public colleges, 75% graduated from private colleges and 88% graduated from for-profit colleges.
  • Almost half (47%) of private loan borrowers in 2011-12 borrowed less than they could have in federal Stafford loans for college.
  • While private loan volume peaked at $18.1 billion in 2007-2008, private loan volume is now $7.8 billion as of 2014-2015.
  • 6% of all undergraduates – 1,373,000 students – borrowed private loans in 2011-12.
  • Four out of five 2016 graduates with state loan debt attended schools in just four states: Texas, Minnesota, Massachusetts, and
    New Jersey that awarded only 14% of bachelor’s degrees.
  • Of the 100 colleges where graduates borrow most in private loans, 85 are nonprofit four-year colleges and 34 are located in Pennsylvania.
  • At public colleges, average debt in 2012 was $25,550 (25% higher than in 2008, when the average was $20,450).
  • At private nonprofit colleges, average debt in 2012 was $32,300 (15% higher than in 2008, when the average was $28,200).
  • At for-profit colleges, average debt in 2012 was $39,950 (26% higher than in 2008, when the average was $31,800).
  • About 20% of the Class of 2012's student loans were private student loans.
  • Graduates who receive Pell Grants are more likely to borrow more debt: 88% had student loans in 2012, with an average of $31,200 per borrower.
  • Graduates who did not receive Pell Grants: 53% of those who never received a Pell Grant had debt, with an average of $26,450 per borrower — $4,750 less than the average debt for Pell recipients with debt.

(Source: The Institute for College Access and Success)

Student Loan Forgiveness

Student loan forgiveness comes in several forms. Two of the most popular types of student loan forgiveness are Public Service Loan Forgiveness and Teacher Student Loan Forgiveness.

As of December 31, 2017, there are 802,040 cumulative Public Service Loan Forgiveness borrowers.

Since 2012, 1,361,184 employment certification forms have been approved and 705,362 have been denied.

(The above student loan debt statistics include data from The New York Federal Reserve Credit Panel/Equifax, The Institute For College Access and Success, National Student Loan Data System, Mark Kantrowitz, Federal Student Aid and FedLoan Servicing).

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Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: Eddie on May 06, 2019, 11:19:52 AM
So, you're deleting my posts now. Figures. This last article, once again, says nothing about defaulters. Not at all. More smoke and mirrors as far as the really important facts.

The Diner is off my list. You and Surly deserve each other, You both have lost my respect here, Don't guess that matters, I'm gone and I won't be back, Ever.

 Have fun with your cut-and paste silliness. This site is now as irrelevant to me as TBF. The flip side of the same coin.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 11:41:33 AM
So, you're deleting my posts now.

You violated the CoC and called me "chief".  I already warned you on that one.  You were doing OK until then.

RE
Title: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 11:46:26 AM
I did the math for you guys.   :icon_sunny:

As you can see, only around 7.8% of the total debt is held by people with under $10K in loans.  92% goes to everybody else.  Even if the low end has a higher default rate, they still would not be in the majority of total amount in default.

Amt. Owed Average Amt # Debtors Total Owed   % Total Owed
           
<5000 5 8.77 43.85   0.033722987
5K-10K 7.5 7.55 56.625   0.04354764285
10K-25K 17.5 12.37 216.475   0.1664808121
25K-50K 32.5 8.48 275.6   0.2119510882
50K-75K 62.5 3.54 221.25   0.1701530416
75K-100K 87.5 1.5 131.25   0.100938245
100K-150K 125 1.24 155   0.1192032608
150K-200K 175 0.55 96.25   0.07402137968
>200K 200 0.52 104   0.07998154272
           
    Total Debt 1300.3   1

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 06, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
I did the math for you guys.   :icon_sunny:

As you can see, only around 7.8% of the total debt is held by people with under $10K in loans.  92% goes to everybody else.  Even if the low end has a higher default rate, they still would not be in the majority of total amount in default.


First of all, even if your simplistic breakdown is at all meaningful, which is questionable... the conclusion would be that an across the board student loan amnesty program would mostly benefit the middle to upper class cohorts who can afford to pay back some of their loans. Is that what you want?

You also never responded to my point that a "default" does not mean the total loan is in default or owed. A person with a decent income may have paid off 50% of their loan and then defaulted on a couple payments for whatever reason, and this person would make it into your stats.

This doesn't have to be a purely political issue, but of course the leftist ideologues don't know how to talk about anything without making it purely political.
Title: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Charting the Distribution
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 12:54:53 PM
In order to better visualize the distribution, I charted it out for you guys.  :icon_sunny:

     
Student Debt Distribution by Amount Owed
           
                   
300                  
290                  
280                  
270                  
260                  
250                  
240                  
230                  
220                  
210                  
200                  
190                  
180                  
170                  
160                  
150                  
140                  
130                  
120                  
110                  
100                  
90                  
80                  
70                  
60                  
50                  
40                  
30                  
20                  
10                  
  <5K 5K-10K 10K-25K 25K-50K 50K-75K 75K-100K 100K-150K 150K-200K >200K

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 12:57:49 PM
the conclusion would be that an across the board student loan amnesty program would mostly benefit the middle to upper class cohorts who can afford to pay back some of their loans.

Of course.  That's why the demonstrations are packed with middle to upper class white kids, not poor black kids.  ::)

RE
Title: 🎓 Not for Profit Universities: The Biggest Culprit of the Student Loan Crisis
Post by: RE on May 06, 2019, 04:02:16 PM
Here's a few more FACTS for you on Student Loan Borrowers at the high end from Professional Schools:

(No items to show)
...and below an article about how Non-Profit Universities cost the taxpayer more than For-Profit schools.

This is of course all "Leftist Spin" and "simplistic" analysis.  ::)  Besides that, if I do this, I am a "copy/paste" artist, if a Righty does it, he is doing "research".  ::) ::)

RE

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/not-profit-universities-biggest-culprit-student-loan-crisis/ (https://www.studentloanplanner.com/not-profit-universities-biggest-culprit-student-loan-crisis/)

Not for Profit Universities: The Biggest Culprit of the Student Loan Crisis

Not for Profit Universities: The Biggest Culprit of the Student Loan Crisis

\"Avatar\"

By Travis Hornsby - Updated September 12, 2018 Leave a Comment

Very few lawmakers, reporters, or thought leaders understand how badly many professional and grad schools at not for profit universities are screwing their students and the taxpayer. All the attention is on greedy for-profit schools who sign someone up for a useless degree often leaving them with $5,000 to $20,000 of debt.

The data on professional schools is so distorted, it would cause many of them to close if the public knew how out of control costs have become. Whether by luck or design, almost no one knows how awful the tuition problem is after undergrad thanks to shoddy government stats that shield the student loan crisis.

The Student Loan Default Rate Gets All the Public Attention

Look at this chart from the College Board’s student loan statistics. It shows default rates for the cohort of students who entered repayment starting in 2008-2009. Notice that 47% of students from for-profit colleges defaulted on their student loans.

By contrast, only 5% of grad school borrowers defaulted.

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* Data from the College Board

You could look at this one piece of information as a lawmaker and determine that for-profit colleges are the primary bane of education in America today and should be cut off from federal student loans.

I agree that for-profit schools have no business receiving federal student aid. However, charts like these are extremely deceiving as it pertains to the student loan default crisis.

Looking at this, one would also conclude that grad school borrowers are doing great and that advanced education is clearly a great investment.

Looking at the College Scorecard Shows More Great News For Prestigious Schools Student Loan Repayment

\"Student

I went to the website for the federal College Scorecard, which shows a bunch of data at the institutional level for student loan repayment.

Keep in mind, this is the same site that grossly exaggerated the rate at which undergrads pay down at least $1 of what they borrowed (principal not just the interest). For example, before they discovered the coding error, the site said that 77% of non-profit private college grads paid down some of their student loan debt within three years.

After they fixed the error, the real rate dropped to 59% of undergrads, which is a big difference.

Hence, any data on the site now is more accurate. Check out the College Scorecard’s data showing the percent of University of Pennsylvania grads who pay down at least $1 of principal in their first three years after graduation.

\"Student

Eighty-four percent of undergrads pay off some of their debt at UPenn within three years. That’s fantastic right?

If you look at other elite institutions, repayment rates are high across the board. Notice how much higher the repayment rate is compared to other institutions, which is at a pitiful 47%.

How to Hide Abuse of Federal Student Loan Dollars in Faulty Government Statistics

If you look at all the student loan stats in the media, all of them reflect things like student loan default rates. Occasionally they’ll talk about forbearance, and sometimes they even chat about the rising number of borrowers who will receive PSLF.

What I never see are stats surrounding how many borrowers at professional and graduate school programs pay down at least $1 of the principal within three to five years.

Undergrad programs have to report this, and the data is very transparent and open to the public, even though that data was crap until recently.

Think about an institution like UPenn (which I have nothing against by the way, I only chose them because my wife trained there and one of my first clients was a Penn veterinarian). Penn’s undergrad default rate is very low.

Their professional schools like their College of Veterinary Medicine have extremely low default rates. However, it costs over $350,000 to become a Penn veterinarian. Unless you’re rich, you’re borrowing all of that.

The average salary of a typical vet might be $80,000. It’s obvious that there’s zero chance a person making $80,000 can afford to pay off $300,000. They’d have to pay $40,000 for 10 years just to pay everything off.

Hence, the default rate and the forbearance rate are very low for Penn’s professional school programs. However, the percent of students who actually pay down their debt within 3 years is likely worse than even the sketchiest for-profit schools.

How Many Professional School Graduates Actually Pay Off Their Debt?

\"Projections

The answer is quite a few. From all the mailers you receive asking you to refinance your student loans, you know that a lot of people pay off their student loans in full.

That said, the most expensive private and public universities help their students rack up so much debt that they have no chance of paying it back.

Look at the distribution of debt in the US below. This only includes the approximately $1 trillion federal student loan portfolio.

\"Student

It’s stunning that 8% of borrowers account for 38% of the debt. That makes sense in that you’d expect individuals borrowing for med school or law school to owe multiples of what someone just graduating undergrad would have.

However, at the very high end according to the Department of Education, 500,000 borrowers out of more than 35 million in the Direct Loan program owe 13% of the debt.

The vast majority of these borrowers in the 80k+ club are grad or professional school degree holders. You can know this because students can only borrow a low five-figure amount for undergrad studies, while you can borrow up to the cost of attendance for grad school, even if it’s $550,000 for NYU dental school.

For-Profit Schools Are a Big Problem, But Not for Profit Universities Hurt the Taxpayer More

I don’t want to say that for-profit schools that provide a useless or low-value product don’t deserve attention. I believe it’s quite unfortunate that Secretary Devos recently shuttered the for-profit unit at the Dept of Education.

The problem is when a borrower who goes to barber school and defaults on his $10,000 student loans, the impact to the federal budget is limited.

I’d argue that the individual faces significantly more serious repercussions than the taxpayer. Imagine you defaulted on a small debt amount but could barely afford your electric bill. You believed this scam operation that told you they could teach you how to earn $14 an hour instead of $10. You lack good info on income-based repayment, so you default.

Now your credit score is wrecked. Your car loan costs more, your credit cards charge even more interest, and good luck qualifying for a home.

Contrast that to the dentist with $500,000 of student debt. She will never be able to afford to pay that back. While she performs a vital service to society as a dentist, the market says her skill is worth something between $120,000 to $200,000 a year.

After taxes, she cannot pay the government back. However, she will enter income-driven repayment and perhaps hire someone like me to mitigate the cost of her debt through smart student loan planning strategies.

The $500,000 dentist is equal to 50 students who got suckered by for-profit colleges.

Unfortunately, professional schools do not have to report the percent of students paying at least $1 toward their debt three years after graduation like undergrad programs do. Most for-profit schools offer primarily undergrad degrees, so they all show up in the stats.

Who’s the bigger problem for the future solvency of our country, for-profit schools or not for profit universities that decided to jack up their tuition for professional programs? Sadly, lawmakers don’t even have the data to make this decision.

You can’t control the actions of lawmakers or statistics and projections for student loan defaults. What you can do is control your own student loan debt repayment plan. Not quite sure where to start? 

Student Loan Planner has done 1,000+ student loan consults for clients with $275,000,000+ of combined student debt, and we can help you figure out the best path to paying back your student loans in just 1 hour.

Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 07, 2019, 02:11:46 PM
the conclusion would be that an across the board student loan amnesty program would mostly benefit the middle to upper class cohorts who can afford to pay back some of their loans.

Of course.  That's why the demonstrations are packed with middle to upper class white kids, not poor black kids.  ::)

RE

So are you against these "liberal progressive" proposals to "cancel all student debt"? Based on your own stats and articles, you should be.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 07, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
the conclusion would be that an across the board student loan amnesty program would mostly benefit the middle to upper class cohorts who can afford to pay back some of their loans.

Of course.  That's why the demonstrations are packed with middle to upper class white kids, not poor black kids.  ::)

RE

So are you against these "liberal progressive" proposals to "cancel all student debt"? Based on your own stats and articles, you should be.

First off, I'm not a "liberal progressive", they're almost as annoying as conservative libertarians.  Second, I already stated what I would like to see a couple of pages back in my response to K-Dog, a post ignored by the Radical Right Representatives here.  You're not keeping up with the posting.

RE
Title: 🎓Who Are Student Loan Defaulters?
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 02:32:02 AM
Today's copy/paste research data on the Student Loan problem.

RE

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/12/14/444011/student-loan-defaulters/ (https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/12/14/444011/student-loan-defaulters/)

Who Are Student Loan Defaulters?


Who Are Student Loan Defaulters?

College students walk between classes on their campus in New York, February 2017.
AP/Bebeto MatthewsCollege students walk between classes on their campus in New York, February 2017.

Download the PDF here.

Every year, 1 million student borrowers default on nearly $20 billion in federal loans.1 New data present the best picture ever accessible of who these borrowers are, the path they took into default, and whether or not they were able to return their accounts to good standing.2

The data show that the average defaulter looks very different from stereotypical portrait of a college student as someone who comes straight to college out of high school and lives in a dormitory on campus while pursuing a bachelor’s degree. Defaulters are more likely to be older, be Pell Grant recipients, and come from underrepresented backgrounds than those who never default. The median defaulter takes out slightly over $9,600—just more than one-half of what the median nondefaulter borrows.3 Three out of every 10 defaulters are African American and nearly one-half of all defaulters never finish college.

By and large, defaulters do not follow a straight line from entering repayment to defaulting at the earliest possible moment, after 270 days of delinquency. Instead, data show that defaulters take advantage of opportunities to pause payments without going delinquent. The median borrower took 2.75 years to default after entering repayment.4

Sadly, once borrowers defaulted, many had trouble getting out. Forty-five percent of defaulters have not found a solution to return their most recent default back to good standing. Of the 55 percent of defaulters who resolved their most recently defaulted loans, almost one-half did so by paying off the debt—a solution that could require them to pay large amounts in collection costs. These figures also do not reflect the fact that each year nearly 100,000 borrowers default on their loans for a second time.5

Unacceptable default rates have equity and accountability implications as well. Repayment solutions fail the nearly one-half of African American borrowers who default on their loans.6 Although the federal government measures and enforces sanctions on colleges with high default rates, the accountability measure fails to track almost one-half of all defaults, which explains why only 10 institutions are at risk of losing access to federal aid this year.7

Federal policy cannot allow this default situation to persist. To be fair, it is possible that future numbers could look better as more borrowers take advantage of income-driven repayment (IDR) plans. These plans tie monthly payments to a set share of a borrower’s income, which in turn makes loan payments more affordable. However, there is minimal public information available on the characteristics of borrowers using these options. The effect of reforming repayment on the path out of default is also unclear. The U.S. Department of Education should conduct more analyses to assess how well these income-based payment plans address the national default problem and to determine if there are certain types of borrowers who need repayment assistance beyond these plans.

Furthermore, the conversation around student loan defaults must include the role that institutions play. Federal repayment options can only be effective if students leave school having acquired insufficient skills and knowledge or if they drop out after a short time. Changes to federal accountability systems—such as the creation of a risk-sharing system that requires institutions to cover a portion of costs when student loans go bad—may provide new incentives needed to encourage institutions to better focus on preventing the educational conditions that later lead to default.8

Background on student loan default

A federal student loan enters default when a borrower fails to make a payment on it for 270 consecutive days.9 When this happens, the borrower’s loan is transferred from the student loan servicer—a private contractor responsible for collecting payments on behalf of the federal government—to the Debt Management Collections System.10 Borrowers then have 60 days to come to a repayment arrangement with the Education Department. If no agreement is reached, the loan is transferred to a student loan debt collector.

Borrowers can face several consequences for entering default. First, defaults are recorded on borrowers’ credit reports, lowering their credit scores and potentially making it harder for them to obtain future loans, apartments, or even jobs.11 Second, defaulters can have their wages garnished or tax refunds seized, and older defaulters may lose a portion of their Social Security payments.12 Default also prevents borrowers from receiving any additional federal student aid until their loans return to good standing, making it more challenging for dropouts to return to school. Lastly, defaulters are legally required to pay for the costs of debt collection—which can be as high as 25 percent of their defaulted loan balance—to get rid of their debt.

The federal government offers borrowers two options to return a defaulted loan to good standing without having to pay off the balance. Borrowers may rehabilitate their loans—a process in which they make nine consecutive on-time payments of an agreed-upon amount. After that, the loan returns to good standing and the history of default is removed from their credit report. The record of delinquency, however, remains.13 Loans may only be rehabilitated once. Alternatively, defaulters can consolidate their loans to leave default. To do so, they must either make three on-time payments or agree to a payment plan in which their monthly bill is tied to their income.14 Consolidated loans can return to good standing, but borrowers’ credit report history does not get erased. Borrowers can consolidate a single loan one time, unless subsequent consolidations involve at least one loan that was not already consolidated out of default.

Current data on student loan defaulters is insufficient

Today, approximately 8 million Americans are in default on more than $178 billion in student loans.15 These borrowers can have their wages garnished, tax returns taken, and even lose parts of their Social Security benefits.16 Until recently, the department had not released sufficient data on who defaults on federal loans. The Education Department only produces one institution-level report on defaults—a measure of how many borrowers defaulted within three years of entering repayment.17 Those data lack basic information about the amount of debt held by defaulters.18 To the department’s credit, it has released significantly more data on loan outcomes by school through the College Scorecard, though none of these figures include specific information on default.19 All other data on default are reported for the entire portfolio or as sector-level budget projections.

In early October 2017, the Education Department’s statistical arm released data on repayment outcomes within 12 years of entering higher education for students who started in the 2003-04 academic year.20 By combining student surveys and administrative data from transcripts, financial aid databases, and other sources, these data allow for the most robust analysis of loan default to date. They make possible three types of analyses: demographic breakdowns of defaulters; longitudinal tracking of how long it took borrowers to default; and what happened after defaulting.

The nation’s current system of higher education puts the most vulnerable students at the greatest risk of default.

These recently released data, as well as other, more comprehensive data on default and loan repayment, can assist policy efforts to lower persistently high default rates. For instance, IDR plans—which take the sting out of monthly payments by tying what a student pays to their income—have been hailed as the answer to student loan default. The Government Accountability Office found that not only are borrowers on IDR plans less likely to default than their peers on other repayment plans, but also that students who are most at risk of default often do not take advantage of the IDR option.21 Furthermore, only minimal data exist on the number and characteristics of defaulted borrowers who tried to use one of these repayment options. Similarly, no available data allow policymakers to evaluate the effectiveness of economic hardship deferment or voluntary forbearance—two options that allow borrowers to temporarily stop payments—or to determine if these options help individuals get back on track or are simply waypoints to default.22

While it may not be possible to eliminate every last default, seeing so many students fail to repay despite the array of repayment options and benefits suggests that policymakers could do a better job investigating what successfully keeps students in good standing on their loans. Understanding the problem is the first step.

Defaulters represent a large portion of today’s college students

Student loan defaulters largely resemble the students who occupy campuses today. Students who entered college in the 2003-04 school year, took out a federal loan, and defaulted at some point are older, lower-income, and more likely to be financially independent than both borrowers overall and those who did not default. Defaulters are also more likely to be students of color.

Table 1 presents more detailed information on the characteristics of defaulters. The right-most column shows the percentage-point difference between the share of defaulters in a demographic category versus the overall set of loan borrowers. For instance, it shows that while 19 percent of all students who took out a federal loan started at a private for-profit college, 38 percent of all defaulters began at that same type of institution—a difference of 18 percentage points.

The figures in Table 1 show the extent to which the nation’s current system of higher education puts the most vulnerable students at the greatest risk of default. For instance, nearly 90 percent of defaulters also received a Pell Grant at one point; 70 percent came from families where neither parent earned a college degree; 40 percent came from the bottom quarter of the income distribution; and 30 percent were African American.23 These groups are overrepresented among defaulters by double-digit margins. By contrast, white students make up 60 percent of federal loan borrowers, but just 44 percent of defaulters.24 Similarly, while more than one-third of borrowers received a bachelor’s degree, only 10 percent of defaulters earned this credential.25

Defaulters borrowed less than nondefaulters

Typical media narratives portray borrowers with large debts as those most likely to struggle.26 While these individuals may have trouble affording their payments, they are not at as great a risk of default as those with smaller loan balances.

Table 2 shows the median debt load for students who defaulted on their loans broken down by attainment status, the first type of institution attended, and race. In almost every case, the median loan defaulter owed thousands of dollars less than their peers who did not default. For instance, the median defaulter owed $9,625—$8,500 less than the median loan balance for a nondefaulter.

Interestingly, individuals who attained bachelor’s degrees were the only group where the median defaulter owed more than the median nondefaulter. The median defaulter who completed a bachelor’s degree owed $6,125 more than the median nondefaulter.

Defaulters are not immediate dropouts

Driven by research from the Association of Community College Trustees (ACCT) and the Obama administration’s Council of Economic Advisers, conventional wisdom in higher education policy now recognizes that dropouts are at greater risk of default than college graduates; new data confirm that finding.27 Of students who entered higher education in the 2003-04 academic year and borrowed federal loans, 49 percent of those who defaulted dropped out of college, while just 10 percent finished a bachelor’s degree. Only 5 percent of defaulters borrowed for graduate education.28

New data also shed light on how far borrowers made it into their programs. Table 3 shows the median number of postsecondary credits earned by students who defaulted across a variety of characteristics. Surprisingly, the median dropout earned 24 credits, the equivalent of two semesters at what is considered a full-time load. This is notably higher than previous default analyses. A 2015 ACCT study, for example, found that nearly 60 percent of defaulters from Iowa community colleges accumulated less than 15 credit hours.29

There may be a technical reason for this discrepancy. Methodology documentation produced by the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) notes that 8.5 percent of the student sample did not include transcript data.30 If many of these students borrowed and dropped out without accumulating any credits, then the median figure for credits earned would decrease.

Table 4 presents data on how defaulters performed in their courses as measured by GPA on a four-point scale. Overall, defaulters tended to have lower GPAs than nondefaulters. For instance, the median dropout who defaulted had a 2.0 GPA. The median defaulters who also finished a credential had grades in the C+ or B- range, which is high enough to be considered good academic standing.

These tables show that while defaulters may not be top students, they are often capable of doing college-level work. Institutions and policymakers should reexamine the factors that cause students to drop out and determine whether the reason why a student dropped out affects their odds of defaulting. For instance, policymakers should assess how default rates compare across borrowers who drop out due to poor academic standing, versus those who drop out due to an unexpected economic shock such as a broken car or loss of child care.

Borrowers take years to default

Even after a borrower leaves school, it typically takes some time for them to default. In fact, the median defaulter took two years and nine months to default after entering repayment—significantly longer than the nine months it takes to default without a payment.31

Table 5 shows the breakdown in the number of years between when borrowers entered repayment and when they defaulted. Fifty-three percent of borrowers who defaulted did so within three years of entering repayment. Approximately one-quarter defaulted between three and five years, while another one-quarter defaulted after five years or more.

These findings have implications for accountability measures tied to student loan default rates. When these defaulters entered higher education, colleges were judged by the share of their borrowers who defaulted within two years of entering repayment.32 According to the data in Table 5, that approach failed to account for nearly two-thirds of all students who eventually defaulted. In 2008, Congress extended the default rate window to three years, though even that only captures slightly more than one-half of all defaults.33

Unfortunately, the new NCES data are not detailed enough to indicate whether defaulters made payments before defaulting. It does indicate, however, that the median defaulter used two forbearances, which could mean that they went up to two years with no payments.34

The NCES data also provide no information on the payment plans borrowers used. Since 2007, policymakers have tried to reduce defaults by creating additional plans that tie borrowers’ payments to their incomes.35 While most of these plans were likely created after many dropouts entered repayment, it would be helpful to know if and how students’ usage of different repayment plans changed over time. To enable analysis of payment plans, the NCES should include this information in future iterations of the survey.36

Only slightly more than one-half of defaulters fix their debt

The Education Department offers several options to return a defaulted loan to good standing. Borrowers can rehabilitate their loan once, meaning they can make nine agreed-upon payments over 10 months. Alternatively, they can consolidate defaulted debts into a new loan. Defaulters could also have the debt discharged for reasons such as a permanent and total disability and, in very rare cases, through bankruptcy. And, of course, if they have the means, they could pay the debt off. The goal of these options is to ensure that default is not a lifelong sentence to financial ruin.

Many defaulters fail to make use of these options to return their loans to good standing. As shown in Table 6, only 55 percent of defaulters took steps to resolve their most recent default. Of those who did resolve their most recent default, nearly one-half paid off the debt in full. This is a potentially expensive option, given that borrowers may have to pay as much as an additional 25 percent of their loan balance in collection costs.37 Meanwhile, about one-third of individuals who resolved their most recent default did so through rehabilitation, while 15 percent used consolidation. Unfortunately, it is difficult to use the data to determine whether any of the students who fixed their loans once later defaulted a second time.

Comparing loan balances owed with the means through which borrowers resolved defaulted debts partially explains the large share of borrowers paying off their loans. Borrowers who paid off defaulted loans owed under $5,000, which is less than one-half of what borrowers who rehabilitated owed and about one-third of what those who consolidated or did not resolve their default owed. Unfortunately, the data do not show whether these debts were paid off through voluntary or involuntary means. For example, borrowers could have paid off their debt by having the federal government seize enough of their tax refunds or garnish their wages over time. Borrowers could also have made payments that immediately retired the debt. Knowing more about the different ways in which loans are paid off would have policy implications and affect whether the tools currently used to collect on defaulted student loans are judged as the right ones.

Policymakers must reconsider the path before and after default

These findings show that the federal government must study the path students take into and out of default more thoroughly and comprehensively. For instance, the long lag between entering repayment and default suggests that, in some cases, deferment or forbearances may not help with long-term payment success but rather delay bad outcomes. If that is the case, policymakers must consider other interventions for delinquent and at-risk borrowers.

Similarly, policymakers must take a closer look at the effectiveness of options to get students out of default. This should start with understanding how defaulters pay off their loans. For instance, are they doing so due to the seizure of a tax refund? Are they burning through an emergency savings cushion, putting themselves at greater risk should other financial challenges arise? This has implications for considering whether a bigger push for getting students back on a regular, affordable payment schedule may be better for them. Finally, policymakers should also look at how successful rehabilitation is at preventing redefault, compared with consolidation.

Policymakers should also consider how the options to get out of default are presented to borrowers. Are student loan collection agencies effective at guiding borrowers to their best path out of default? Do the incentives for collection agencies best align with borrower success, or would those functions be better handled by loan servicers?

Conclusion

Understanding who defaults and why matters not just because of the severe consequences borrowers face when they end up in this situation, but for equity reasons as well. As the Center for American Progress found in mid-October, one-half of black or African American borrowers from the 2003-04 entering cohort defaulted on a federal loan within 12 years of starting college. Among dropouts, the rate of defaults is even higher.38

The pain that radiates out from defaults in local communities could discourage future students from ever attending college. Young people who watch parents or peers losing much-needed tax refunds from student debt or hearing that college was not for them may become skeptical of the benefits of pursing postsecondary education.

The Education Department alone cannot fix the default crisis. The quality of education offered by schools; the share of students that finish credentials; and the amount of debt they take on are also important. But that does not absolve the federal government from ensuring that federal aid programs, especially options for defaulted borrowers, serve in the interest of helping students find success in repayment.

Ben Miller is the senior director for Postsecondary Education at the Center for American Progress.

Endnotes

  1. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Default Rates,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/default]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/default[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  2. Jennie H. Woo and others, “Repayment of Student Loans as of 2015 Among 1996–96 and 2003–04 First-Time Beginning Students” (Washington: National Center for Education Statistics, 2017), available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018410.pdf]https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018410.pdf[/url].
  3. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table cdmbhmd9,” available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhmd9]https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhmd9[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  4. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table dbmbhkaf,” available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=dbmbhkaf]https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=dbmbhkaf[/url] (last accessed November 2017). 
  5. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Default Rates.”
  6. Ben Miller, “New Federal Data Show a Student Loan Crisis for African American Borrowers,” Center for American Progress, October 16, 2017, available at [url=https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/news/2017/10/16/440711/new-federal-data-show-student-loan-crisis-african-american-borrowers/]https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/news/2017/10/16/440711/new-federal-data-show-student-loan-crisis-african-american-borrowers/[/url].
  7. Ben Miller, “Improving Federal Accountability for Higher Education” (Washington: Center for American Progress, 2017), available at [url=https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/10/24/440931/improving-federal-accountability-for-higher-education/]https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/10/24/440931/improving-federal-accountability-for-higher-education/[/url].
  8. Ben Miller and CJ Libassi, “Sharing the Risk: A Plan for Colleges to Participate in the Costs of Student Loan Failure” (Washington: Center for American Progress, 2016), available at [url=https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2016/12/19/295187/sharing-the-risk/]https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2016/12/19/295187/sharing-the-risk/[/url].
  9. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Understanding Delinquency and Default,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/default#default]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/default#default[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  10. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Single Portal Entry Debt Resolution,” available at [url=https://myeddebt.ed.gov/]https://myeddebt.ed.gov/[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  11. Gregory Go, “How Bad Credit May Kill Your Job Prospects,” U.S. News and World Report, March 23, 2016, available at [url=https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/articles/2016-03-23/how-bad-credit-may-kill-your-job-prospects]https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/articles/2016-03-23/how-bad-credit-may-kill-your-job-prospects[/url]; Claire Tsosie, “What Landlords Really Look for in a Credit Check,” Nerdwallet, July 15, 2015, available at [url=https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/finance/landlords-credit-check/]https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/finance/landlords-credit-check/[/url].
  12. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Understanding Delinquency and Default.”
  13. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Getting Out of Default,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/default/get-out]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/default/get-out[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  14. Ibid.
  15. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Federal Student Loan Portfolio,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/portfolio]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/portfolio[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  16. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Understanding Delinquency and Default.”
  17. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Official Cohort Default Rates for Schools,” available at [url=https://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html]https://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  18. Federal Student Aid Administration, “Default Rates.”
  19. U.S. Department of Education College Scorecard, “Find Schools,” available at [url=https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/]https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  20. Woo and others, “Repayment of Student Loans as of 2015 Among 1996–96 and 2003–04 First-Time Beginning Students.”
  21. U.S. Government Accountability Office, “Education Could Do More to Help Ensure Borrowers Are Aware of Repayment and Forgiveness Options” (2015), available at [url=https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672136.pdf]https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672136.pdf[/url].
  22. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Deferment and Forbearance,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/deferment-forbearance]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/deferment-forbearance[/url] (last accessed December 2017).
  23. This issue brief uses the term African American to refer to students who are categorized by the National Center for Education Statistics as either black of African American.
  24. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table cdmbhm72,” available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhm72]https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhm72[/url] (last accessed November 2017). 
  25. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table cdmbhm7a,” available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhm7a]https://nces.ed.gov/datalab/index.aspx?ps_x=cdmbhm7a[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  26. Ruth Spencer, “What’s it like living with six figures of debt in America?”, The Guardian, April 3, 2013, available at [url=https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/apr/03/student-debt-america-six-figures]https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/apr/03/student-debt-america-six-figures[/url].
  27. Colleen Campbell and Nicholas Hillman, “A Closer Look at the Trillion: Borrowing, Repayment, and Default at Iowa’s Community Colleges” (Washington: Association of Community College Trustees, 2015), available at [url=https://www.acct.org/files/Publications/2015/ACCT_Borrowing-Repayment-Iowa_CCs_09-28-2015.pdf]https://www.acct.org/files/Publications/2015/ACCT_Borrowing-Repayment-Iowa_CCs_09-28-2015.pdf[/url]; Council of Economic Advisers, Investing in Higher Education: Benefits, Challenges, and the State of Student Debt (Executive Office of the President, 2016), available at [url=https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20160718_cea_student_debt.pdf]https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20160718_cea_student_debt.pdf[/url].
  28. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table cdmbhm7a.”
  29. Campbell and Hillman, “A Closer Look at the Trillion.”
  30. National Center for Education Statistics, 2004/09 Beginning Postsecondary Students Longitudinal Study (BPS: 04/09) (U.S. Department of Education, 2011), available at [url=https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012246.pdf]https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012246.pdf[/url].
  31. National Center for Education Statistics, “Datalab, Beginning Postsecondary Students 2004-2009, Table dbmbhkaf.”
  32. U.S. Department of Education, “First Official Three-Year Student Loan Default Rates Published,” Press release, September 28, 2012, available at [url=https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/first-official-three-year-student-loan-default-rates-published]https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/first-official-three-year-student-loan-default-rates-published[/url].
  33. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Official Cohort Default Rates for Schools.”
  34. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Deferment and Forbearance,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/deferment-forbearance]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/deferment-forbearance[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  35. Office of Federal Student Aid, “Income-Driven Plans,” available at [url=https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-driven]https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-driven[/url] (last accessed November 2017).
  36. College Cost Reduction and Access Act, Public Law 110–84, 110th Cong., 2d sess. (September 27, 2007), available at [url=https://www.congress.gov/110/plaws/publ84/PLAW-110publ84.pdf]https://www.congress.gov/110/plaws/publ84/PLAW-110publ84.pdf[/url].
  37. Student Loan Borrower Assistance, “Fees,” available at http://www.studentloanborrowerassistance.org/collections/collection-agencies/fees/ (last accessed November 2017).
  38. Ben Miller, “New Federal Data Show a Student Loan Crisis for African American Borrowers.”
Title: Student Loan Forgiveness Program Offers False Hope, Rejects 99% of Applications
Post by: Surly1 on May 08, 2019, 03:43:33 AM

Student Loan Forgiveness Program Offers False Hope, Rejects 99% of Applications
(https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/05/student-loan-forgiveness-program-offers-false-hope-rejects-99-of-applications.html)

Yves Smith

The infamous HAMP program, which the Administration revised so many times on the fly as to give incompetent and mendacious mortgage servicers air cover for failing to modify mortgages, at least had a stealth purpose. As Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said to the SIGTARP’s Neil Barofsky, it was to foam the runway for banks by spreading out foreclosures over time. But that still doesn’t excuse servicers for their favorite gimmick for not bothering with HAMP applications, which was to pretend they’d never received them.

But it’s not clear what the thinking was behind the 2007 Student Loan Forgiveness Program, except to create better eyewash. The ostensible goal was to give student debt relief for borrowers who went into socially useful but not well remunerated lines of work. But not only were the eligible employers (note employers, not job types) poorly specified, other elements of the program were also drafted badly in the legislation. Throw in lousy servicers, revisions to an already confusing program, and conservative sabotage into the mix, and you’ve created conditions where many make what they think are the qualifying 120 payments, only to have their application for forgiveness nixed. Only 1% of 73,000 applicants have gotten relief.

The broad outlines of the abject failure of this scheme aren’t new but the Wall Street Journal provides a useful overview and update. The program, launched in 2007, created a series of conditions for eligibility. Per the Journal:

To qualify for forgiveness, borrowers must work for a government entity or nonprofit, hold a certain type of loan, enroll in one of several specific repayment plans and make 120 full and on-time monthly payments, or 10 years’ worth. Falling short on almost any of these requirements can mean disqualification.
Title: Re: Student Loan Forgiveness Program Offers False Hope, Rejects 99% of Applications
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 04:58:24 AM
Totally worthless window dressing, of course.

As this fiasco gets greater and greater attention, any millenial holding a decent size balance in loans is going to vote for whoever credibly promises them debt relief.  At the moment, that would be Liz Warren.  Are these new voters getting polled?  I suspect not at the moment.  We'll get an answer to this question after the first couple of primaries, not before.  That's assuming of course said primaries aren't rigged, which is a big assumption.  ::)

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 08, 2019, 06:27:31 AM
the conclusion would be that an across the board student loan amnesty program would mostly benefit the middle to upper class cohorts who can afford to pay back some of their loans.

Of course.  That's why the demonstrations are packed with middle to upper class white kids, not poor black kids.  ::)

RE


So are you against these "liberal progressive" proposals to "cancel all student debt"? Based on your own stats and articles, you should be.

First off, I'm not a "liberal progressive", they're almost as annoying as conservative libertarians.  Second, I already stated what I would like to see a couple of pages back in my response to K-Dog, a post ignored by the Radical Right Representatives here.  You're not keeping up with the posting.

RE

You mean this?

Quote from: RE
That would be an improvement, but fundamentally since you need education to succeed within the society, it should be provided as a cost to the society as a whole, as it is from pre-K through HS.  Fact is, a HS education doesn't do jack shit for you anymore, the decent paying jobs in manufacturing have all long since flown the coop to 3rd World countries with lower wages and lower CoL.  In the words of Bruce Springsteen, "Those jobs are gone boys, and they ain't never coming back".

Getting into higher levels of education should be competitive and require success at the lower levels to qualify. However, there shouldn't be gate-keeping in the form of numerical levels of people trained for any given profession.  As many people as qualify should have the training available to them at no cost.

Provision also needs to be made for people who are NOT smart enough to cut the mustard in the competition for further education, and at some point along the line"flunk out".  Just being STOOPID should not consign you to a life of endless poverty and indebtedness.  At one time here in the FSoA there were jobs for these people, working on one of Henry Ford's production lines and so forth.  Deadly boring, mind numbing jobs, but they paid a decent wage.  Remember, fully half the population at any given time has an IQ under 100.  You're going to pay all these folks min wage as Starbucks Baristas?  Sorry, that dog won't hunt.  These folks deserve at least a reasonable standard of living too, despite being STOOPID.  Unless they voted for Trumpovetsky, in which case they can eat Dog Food and live in Favelas as far as I am concerned. lol.

I don't see an answer to that question in here. What would you do about existing student loan borrowers?

You and Surly started alleging that Eddie and I were promoting a "radical right" perspective on this issue, just because we don't think everyone who has a student loan should be given relief (especially the doctors and lawyers). If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Surly1 on May 08, 2019, 09:16:21 AM

You and Surly started alleging that Eddie and I were promoting a "radical right" perspective on this issue, just because we don't think everyone who has a student loan should be given relief (especially the doctors and lawyers). If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

This is patently untrue. I asked Eddie some specific questions about his POV, and also challenged some of his assertions about the article about the old lady. Which he returned with unwarranted snark, and then blew a gasket. Eddie is/was not a radical right propagandist; you are. Don't try to hide behind Eddie in justifying the unjustifiable. No one here suffers from the "inability to comprehend [your] posts." They simply disagree, which true believers find intolerable.

I'll let RE deal with the fact that you've called us both stupid. those scoring at home will find that risible. I find you to be a slow learner.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 10:46:57 AM
I don't see an answer to that question in here. What would you do about existing student loan borrowers

Oh good grief.  Obviously, to do such a system, all the debt has to be repudiated.  It's going to happen anyhow with the crash of the monetary system.

Quote
If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

Calling me stupid by couching it in a conditional is a violation of the CoC.  I felt generous and left this one up.  Here's my conditional.  If you do it again, I'll give you a month in the cooler.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 08, 2019, 04:36:58 PM
I don't see an answer to that question in here. What would you do about existing student loan borrowers

Oh good grief.  Obviously, to do such a system, all the debt has to be repudiated.  It's going to happen anyhow with the crash of the monetary system.

Ok, so your a leftist who wants to bail out all manner of middle to high upper class people, including doctors and lawyers. Good to know that your views are just as contradictory as Surly.

Quote
If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

Calling me stupid by couching it in a conditional is a violation of the CoC.  I felt generous and left this one up.  Here's my conditional.  If you do it again, I'll give you a month in the cooler.

RE
[/quote]

So it's a violation to say I believe that you are not comprehending my posts. In what crazy PC authoritarian world does that equate to calling you stupid? This forum has become even more fragile and oversensitive than the most liberal publications or forums.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 08, 2019, 04:40:50 PM

You and Surly started alleging that Eddie and I were promoting a "radical right" perspective on this issue, just because we don't think everyone who has a student loan should be given relief (especially the doctors and lawyers). If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

This is patently untrue. I asked Eddie some specific questions about his POV, and also challenged some of his assertions about the article about the old lady. Which he returned with unwarranted snark, and then blew a gasket. Eddie is/was not a radical right propagandist; you are. Don't try to hide behind Eddie in justifying the unjustifiable. No one here suffers from the "inability to comprehend [your] posts." They simply disagree, which true believers find intolerable.

I'll let RE deal with the fact that you've called us both stupid. those scoring at home will find that risible. I find you to be a slow learner.

Surly, you cant point to one damn thing I've said that makes me radical right. Unless of course you consider anyone to the left of you (radical left) as radical right, which I know you do.

You jumped in with those accusations after I said respecting personal obligations is important. If you consider that radical right sentiment, you have 100% disconnected from any reasonable political discourse. Another thing I already knew about you.

Also, Eddie seems to have quit because of YOUR constant accusations without warrant and without any reasonable arguments or evidence. So dont act like you weren't unfairly pigeon holing him like you are me.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 04:57:08 PM
I don't see an answer to that question in here. What would you do about existing student loan borrowers

Oh good grief.  Obviously, to do such a system, all the debt has to be repudiated.  It's going to happen anyhow with the crash of the monetary system.

Ok, so your a leftist who wants to bail out all manner of middle to high upper class people, including doctors and lawyers. Good to know that your views are just as contradictory as Surly.

It's not contradictory.  The problem is generational.  It's not OLD doctors or lawyers who would be receiving the det relief, it's the recent grads.  The OLD doctors and lawyers making gobs of money would be taxed to beat the band to pay for that.

Quote
Quote
If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

Calling me stupid by couching it in a conditional is a violation of the CoC.  I felt generous and left this one up.  Here's my conditional.  If you do it again, I'll give you a month in the cooler.

RE

Quote
So it's a violation to say I believe that you are not comprehending my posts. In what crazy PC authoritarian world does that equate to calling you stupid? This forum has become even more fragile and oversensitive than the most liberal publications or forums.

"Not comprehending" is a polite substitute for "stupid".  I comprehend just fine.  You are the one who has trouble here with comprehending the CoC rules and CFS.  If you violate the CoC, I'll bring down the hammer on you, it's that simple.  Try to process that, it shouldn't be that hard.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: Ashvin on May 08, 2019, 05:08:17 PM
I don't see an answer to that question in here. What would you do about existing student loan borrowers

Oh good grief.  Obviously, to do such a system, all the debt has to be repudiated.  It's going to happen anyhow with the crash of the monetary system.

Ok, so your a leftist who wants to bail out all manner of middle to high upper class people, including doctors and lawyers. Good to know that your views are just as contradictory as Surly.

It's not contradictory.  The problem is generational.  It's not OLD doctors or lawyers who would be receiving the det relief, it's the recent grads.  The OLD doctors and lawyers making gobs of money would be taxed to beat the band to pay for that.


It would be doctors and lawyers in their 30s making upwards of 250k, among others. A whole bunch of people who could afford to pay back the loans over time. People you would otherwise target as worthy of torture in an Orkin Man scenario. Contradictory for sure.

Quote
Quote
If you agree with that, then all of your radical right accusations just stem from your inability to comprehend our posts.

Calling me stupid by couching it in a conditional is a violation of the CoC.  I felt generous and left this one up.  Here's my conditional.  If you do it again, I'll give you a month in the cooler.

RE

Quote
Quote
So it's a violation to say I believe that you are not comprehending my posts. In what crazy PC authoritarian world does that equate to calling you stupid? This forum has become even more fragile and oversensitive than the most liberal publications or forums.

"Not comprehending" is a polite substitute for "stupid".  I comprehend just fine.  You are the one who has trouble here with comprehending the CoC rules and CFS.  If you violate the CoC, I'll bring down the hammer on you, it's that simple.  Try to process that, it shouldn't be that hard.

RE

Of course its NOT a substitute. You may not comprehend a post for a whole host of reasons,  other than being stupid, including the posters lack of clarity. Furthermore, not comprehending one or two posts doesn't mean you cant comprehend posts in general. Its guaranteed that everyone here wont comprehend a post from time to time.

So no, it's not at all the same as calling someone stupid.
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 05:11:17 PM
Also, Eddie seems to have quit because of YOUR constant accusations without warrant and without any reasonable arguments or evidence.

No, Eddie went walkabout because I axed one of his posts which violated the CoC.  A specific term I warned him about using before that.  It was displaying contempt for the CoC.  So down came the Hammer.

RE
Title: Re: 🎓 Student Loan Debt Statistics In 2018: Doing the Math
Post by: RE on May 08, 2019, 05:19:00 PM

It would be doctors and lawyers in their 30s making upwards of 250k, among others. A whole bunch of people who could afford to pay back the loans over time. People you would otherwise target as worthy of torture in an Orkin Man scenario.

Complete bullshit.  Their income is sucked up paying the debt they accrued.  The debt should be repudiated and their incomes reduced accordingly.  These are also not people targeted for "torture".  That is reserved for really BIG Pigmen who have commited Crimes Against Humanity, and only after a Trial under rule of law in the Court of the Inquisition.

Quote
Of course its NOT a substitute. You may not comprehend a post for a whole host of reasons,  other than being stupid, including the posters lack of clarity. Furthermore, not comprehending one or two posts doesn't mean you cant comprehend posts in general. Its guaranteed that everyone here wont comprehend a post from time to time.

Here on the Diner, it is.  Both Surly and I got the same impression from it, and so do the other readers.  So, don't use such language, or down comes the Hammer.  Can I be any more clear here?

RE
Title: 🎓 The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2019
Post by: RE on May 09, 2019, 03:56:07 AM
https://wolfstreet.com/2019/05/08/the-state-of-the-american-debt-slaves-q1-2019/ (https://wolfstreet.com/2019/05/08/the-state-of-the-american-debt-slaves-q1-2019/)


The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2019


The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2019

It’s a tough job, but someone’s doing it.

Consumer debt – or consumer “credit” more euphemistically – includes auto loans, student loans, credit-card debt, and personal loans, but it excludes housing related debt, such as mortgages and HELOCs. Growing consumer debt helps prop up the US economy because it means that consumers – they’re called “consumers” not “people” for a reason – spend money they don’t have. There is always a reckoning in the future, but to heck with the future, and so here we go.

Revolving credit

Credit card debt and other revolving credit, such as personal lines of credit, in Q1 rose 3.4% compared to Q1 last year, to $1.0 trillion (not seasonally adjusted), according to the Federal Reserve Tuesday afternoon. This was a record for a first quarter, when consumers cut back while they try to dig themselves out from under their shopping season debts. But it wasn’t good enough. Credit card balances in Q1 were flat with Q4 2008, despite a decade of inflation, population growth, and economic growth. Our debt slaves are lackadaisical:

The thing is, over the same period, nominal GDP rose 5.1%. And in terms of GDP, credit card debts actually fell, which explains the soft-ish retail data in the first quarter. In a very un-American way, consumers were again lackadaisical in charging up their credit cards to the max.

Credit cards are a key element in the banking industry’s profits. At commercial banks, the average interest rate on credit-card plans is 15.1% and the average assessed interest rate is 16.9%, on $1 trillion in outstanding credit balances. This amounts to around $150 billion to $169 billion a year in interest income! These banks rely on consumers to spend money they don’t have. So why don’t they consume with sufficient energy?  That’s a baffling question for economists.

Auto loans and leases

Total auto loans and leases outstanding for new and used vehicles in Q1 rose by $44.5 billion from a year ago, or by 4.0%, to a record of $1.16 trillion, despite new-vehicle sales that declined in Q1 by 3.2%, though there was some strength in used vehicles sales. The increase in borrowing was due to higher transaction prices of new and used vehicles, the rising average loan-to-value ratio, and the lengthening average duration of loans:

The green line in the chart above is a reminder that this type of data gets revised as new data becomes available. In September 2017, the Federal Reserve adjusted its data of consumer credit back to Q3 2015, based on the new five-year Census survey, and auto loans got the bulk of the revisions. The green line shows that the car business didn’t collapse in Q3 2015 but that the drop in outstanding auto loans was due to a revision.

The student-loan economy

Student loans rose by 4.9% year-over-year in Q1, or by $74 billion, to a new record of $1.6 trillion (not seasonally adjusted). It has doubled since the beginning of 2010. Confusingly, enrollment in higher-education, based on the latest data available from the National Center for Education Statistics fell by 7% between 2010 and 2016.

In other words, fewer students are enrolled, but all combined they borrow more as tuition continues to rise, and as the entire industry feeds on those government-guaranteed student loans. This ranges from device makers, such as Apple, text-book publishers, concert-ticket sellers, and commercial real estate investors specializing in student housing. Every dime a student borrows is spent, and it props up Corporate America, the university financial complex (UFI, my term), and the US economy overall – with heck to pay later:

All three forms of non-housing consumer debt combined – revolving credit, auto loans, and student loans — rose by a respectable $191 billion in Q1 from a year ago to $4.0 trillion, carried by surging student loans and auto loans:

Every dime of this $191 billion in new debt was plowed into consumption, and therefore into GDP. This increase in consumer debt over the 12 months added nearly 1% to GDP, and that’s why consumers have to spend money they don’t have. It’s their job. Everyone depends on them. The other side of the coin is that these debt slaves now owe $4 trillion that they must pay interest and principal on for all times to come. And inflation won’t help them because rising inflation will cause these rates to rise, and our debt slaves will just have to work that much harder to deal with their debts.

Title: 🎓 Liz Warren gets Thumbs Up to cancel Student Debt
Post by: RE on May 09, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/elizabeth-warrens-plan-to-cancel-student-debt-popular-with-voters.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/elizabeth-warrens-plan-to-cancel-student-debt-popular-with-voters.html)

Elizabeth Warren's plan to cancel student debt is popular with voters, survey finds

    In a new Politico/Morning Consult poll, 56% of registered voters say they support the Massachusetts senator's proposal to wipe out $640 billion in outstanding education loans by raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans.
    Just 27% of voters say they oppose the plan.
    Even among voters who've never had student loans, support for Warren's proposal is high.

Annie Nova   | @AnnieReporter
Published 4 Hours Ago Updated 1 Hour Ago CNBC.com
      
(https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2019/05/09/105903637-1557412594975rtx6t1r6.530x298.jpg?v=1557412677)   
2020 Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren participates in the She the People Presidential Forum in Houston, Texas, April 24, 2019.
Loren Elliott | Reuters

]The majority of American voters give a thumbs up to Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren's plan to cancel student debt.

In a new Politico/Morning Consult poll, 56% of registered voters said they support the Massachusetts senator's proposal to wipe out $640 billion in outstanding education loans by raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans. Just 27% of voters said they opposed the plan.

The poll was conducted between May 3 and May 6 and included 1,990 registered voters. The survey has a margin of error of plus or minus 2 percentage points.

Nearly 45 million Americans hold student loans today, and education debt has surpassed credit card or auto debt.

Warren is the only presidential candidate to issue a detailed plan on student debt forgiveness. Under it, borrowers with household incomes under $100,000 would have $50,000 of their student debt canceled, and those who earn $100,000 to $250,000 would be eligible for relief on a sliding scale.

"My broad cancellation plan is a real solution to our student debt crisis," Warren wrote on Medium last month. "It helps millions of families and removes a weight that's holding back our economy."

(https://fm-static.cnbc.com/awsmedia/chart/2019/4/9/boom.1557415072495.png)

Women were more likely (37%) than men (31%) to "strongly support" the proposal. Nearly two-thirds of the country's outstanding student loan debt is held by women, due, in part, to the wage gap, which makes it harder for women to pay off their debt as quickly as men.

The plan is not just popular among young voters. In fact, 52% of people aged 18 to 29 "strongly support" the debt cancellation plan, compared with 60% of those aged 45 to 54. Student debt has been rising quickly among older people, as repayment timelines drag on and parent borrowing increases.

Voters who make under $50,000 a year were more likely (59%) to support the plan than those who earned over $100,000 (47%).

While more than half of Democratic voters strongly support the plan, just 17% of Republicans do.

Overall, even 52% of voters who've never taken out student loans approve of Warren's proposal. Though among people who currently have student debt, that support rises to 75%.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans Redux
Post by: Surly1 on May 09, 2019, 06:19:48 PM
Hey! It's not just for old ladies having their SSI garnished anymore! Let the kids suffer, too, and find out how this country treats debtors!

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Students who owe lunch money in Rhode Island district will get jelly sandwiches until debt is paid (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/students-rhode-island-who-owe-lunch-money-will-only-get-n1002901?fbclid=IwAR184nGk7TCLF-KSWGPWkG8EZUgu6wUGSoT0T0gFG1H4ZH2keBrVKmqQfK8)
Warwick Public Schools, which has more than 9,000 students, said the district-wide policy will go into effect on May 13.


By Elisha Fieldstadt

Students at a Rhode Island school district who owe money on their lunch accounts will have the sole option of a sunflower butter and jelly sandwich until they are able to pay their balances, the district announced Sunday.

Warwick Public Schools, which has more than 9,000 pre-kindergarten through 12th grade students, said the district-wide policy will go into effect on May 13.

"If money is owed on a paid, free, or reduced lunch account a sun butter and jelly sandwich will be given as the lunch choice until the balance owed is paid in full or a payment plan is set up," said a postfrom the district on Facebook.

Warwick School Committee chairwoman Karen Bachus told NBC News that the sandwiches are served with the vegetable of the day, a fruit and milk.

Public schools in Rhode Island are mandated by state law to provide lunches to students.

Download the NBC News app for breaking news and politics

Nearly 70 percent of school lunches in Rhode Island are served for free or at a reduced price based on family income, according to the state. But some parents who commented on the announcement from Warwick Public Schools said even though they qualify for free lunches, their children still owed money because they had added something to their trays that wasn't included with the free lunch, like extra milk.

Other parents noted that the policy of giving out jelly sandwiches to students who owed money would likely leave those children embarrassed and prone to bullying. "This is absolutely awful. Our schools shouldn't be in the business of shaming children," one person wrote beneath the Facebook announcement.

"Just give the kids lunch. ... we cant spring for a chicken patty for a hungry kid? What if this is their only meal of the day?" another commenter to the post asked.

The sunflower butter and jelly sandwich is an option on the regular lunch menu that many students opt for anyway, Bachus said.

"Before we used to give a cheese sandwich which did single them out, but now we've gone with an on-the-menu meal," she said. "So what's wrong with that?"

Bachus said that the district implemented the new policy because it is owed more than $78,000 on account of outstanding lunch payments. She said more than 1,600 students in the district of 8,700 owe money.

"We have sent out letters and certified letters to every family," Bachus said. "All they have to do is contact us to try to work it out."

The issue is not specific to Warwick. More that 75 percent of schools reported that they were owed money for lunches at the end of the 2016/2017 school year, according to the non-profit School Nutrition Association. And 40 percent of schools reported that the amount of students without adequate funds to pay for lunch had increased during the same school year.

The association said that schools found they were able to help parents and students by allowing them to pay outstanding funds online, reminding them about low balances and taking advantage of charitable donations.

Warwick Public Schools, meanwhile, refused a $4,000 donation offered to them from a local restaurant owner, Angelica Penta. "I have met with Warwick twice and the second time I left in tears after they refused to take a $4,000 check," she wrote on Facebook.

Penta raised the money by setting up a donation jar at her restaurant, Gel’s Kitchen.

The district said in a statement that it didn't take the donation because they didn't want to be responsible for allotting which students the money benefited. "Each time these offers were made, Warwick Public Schools stated that the school department was not in the position to single out or identify specific students that should be selected for a reduction in their lunch debt while excluding others," the statement said, according to NBC affiliate WJAR.

A statement released by the district Wednesday said they are working with attorneys to "ensure that we accept donations in compliance with the law and that the donations are applied in an equitable manner."

Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans Redux
Post by: RE on May 09, 2019, 06:26:47 PM
Hey! It's not just for old ladies having their SSI garnished anymore! Let the kids suffer, too, and find out how this country treats debtors!

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

http://www.youtube.com/v/gIi7kb3NFyY

RE
Title: 🍱After Backlash, Rhode Island School District Rolls Back 'Lunch Shaming' Policy
Post by: RE on May 11, 2019, 01:18:54 AM
Doesn't that Hot Food look YUMMY?  mmmm...  ::)

RE

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/722259141/after-backlash-rhode-island-school-district-rolls-back-lunch-shaming-policy (https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/722259141/after-backlash-rhode-island-school-district-rolls-back-lunch-shaming-policy)

After Backlash, Rhode Island School District Rolls Back 'Lunch Shaming' Policy

May 10, 20196:26 PM ET
Vanessa Romo

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/05/10/ap_17026783940037-682b77d0d3b2ae269d98a380e123705024f700db-s800-c85.jpg)
Students in New York fill their lunch trays with hot food. In Rhode Island, a controversy over a plan to limit children to cold sandwiches if they had outstanding lunch balances was quickly reversed this week.
Mary Esch/AP

Fundraising efforts to spare kids from from lunchtime humiliation in a Rhode Island school district have resulted in tens of thousands of dollars in donations over a couple of days, including nearly $50,000 by New York-based yogurt-maker Chobani.

On Sunday, Warwick Public Schools, a small school district facing approximately $77,000 in overdue lunch fees this year, curtly announced plans to implement a new policy that would ban students with outstanding balances from choosing from the cafeteria's hot meals. Instead, it would limit children to "sun butter and jelly" sandwiches until the debt was repaid or a payment plan established.

The change was set to take effect on May 13, but immediate outrage on Facebook and national media attention prompted officials to reverse the decision just one day later.

In a Facebook post, Karen Bachus, chairwoman of the Warwick School Committee, said that "after careful review and consideration" the committee recommended "allow[ing] the students their choice of lunch regardless of their account status."

She also stressed that a vast majority of the debt — 72% — is from students who are not enrolled in the National School Lunch Program. She added that as of the announcement, about $14,000 had been collected from outstanding balances. Bachus also detailed the monthlong process by which the district seeks to collect payment from parents — a process that involves sending multiple letters home over 90 days.

"As a parent, news of Warwick Public Schools breaks my heart," Chobani founder and CEO Hamdi Ulukaya said in a tweet. "No child should be facing anything like this."
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"We need to step up. We'll take care of this school's bill ... but we need everyone around the country to eliminate this" problem forever, he said, adding a call for other companies to help ensure every child has access to "natural, nutritious and delicious food."

The company donated $47,650, the Providence Journal reported.

Additionally, the newspaper said, "Multiple GoFundMe fundraising pages have also been launched, with balances around $40,000."
Schools Will Soon Have To Put In Writing If They 'Lunch Shame'
NPR Ed
Schools Will Soon Have To Put In Writing If They 'Lunch Shame'
Lawmaker's Childhood Experience Drives New Mexico's 'Lunch Shaming' Ban
The Salt
Lawmaker's Childhood Experience Drives New Mexico's 'Lunch Shaming' Ban

The controversy has fueled a national conversation about mounting school lunch debts and the practice of "lunch shaming" in public schools. Policies across school districts have varied drastically. Some routinely throw away lunches when students can't afford to pay for them; some prohibit access to hot food; some stamp the hands of children whose parents are in arrears; and still others make children work to pay off their guardian's debts.

In an attempt to provide some clarity and prevent children from public shame, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the federal school meal program, mandated that all districts put their policies in writing and communicate them to staff, parents and the community at the start of the school year. The agency stopped short of barring some of the most embarrassing practices but did encourage districts to find alternative solutions for working with adults in addressing delinquent accounts.

The USDA provides free and reduced-price lunches to approximately 30.4 million children, but Michael Crudale, executive director of human resources at the neighboring Cranston Public Schools, said he suspects thousands if not millions more children would qualify if they applied.

Cranston Public Schools came under fire late last year after announcing a plan to send unpaid lunch bills to a collection agency.

"There was a lot of backlash ... but over the last few years, student lunch debt has nearly doubled," Crudale told NPR. In the three years he has worked for the district, the annual size of the debt "has gone from about $50,000 to $90,000, which is where we are now" and is likely to reach $100,000 by the end of the year, he said.

Crudale emphasized that the district's new strategy is a "soft approach" and the collections accounts have no impact on credit scores or other unintentional adverse effects. He also said the letters have boosted enrollment numbers in the federal free and reduced-lunch program because an application is attached to each notice.

"We do a big push for the program at the beginning of the year, but a lot of people don't get their forms in. By sending this form with the letter we have seen an increase, and that's good," he said.
Title: 🎓 What’s Scarier Than Student Loans? Welcome to the World of Subprime Children
Post by: RE on May 11, 2019, 05:58:54 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/opinion/sunday/student-loans.html?save=nyt-gateway-stories (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/opinion/sunday/student-loans.html?save=nyt-gateway-stories)

What’s Scarier Than Student Loans? Welcome to the World of Subprime Children

Income share agreements sound like a better deal than today’s student loans, but what will they do to society?

By Malcolm Harris

Mr. Harris is the author of “Kids These Days: Human Capital and the Making of Millennials.”

    May 11, 2019

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/05/12/opinion/sunday/12harris/12harris-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
Credit Tim Lahan

As American families refresh the wait lists and weigh their aid offers, yet another cohort of children sets foot into our disaster of a national higher education financing system. Student debt in the United States is over $1.5 trillion, with half of it accumulated in the past decade. Income share agreements — in which borrowers pledge a percentage of future income against debt — present the first plausible alternative. That’s what we should be afraid of.

There’s a lot to dislike about the student debt status quo, which is now almost completely controlled by the federal government. Although the Democrats don’t like to talk about it, the Obama administration effectively nationalized a vast majority of student borrowing in 2010 when it ended federal guarantees for outside lenders as a cost-cutting provision of the Affordable Care Act. The government has a number of advantages as a lender, including an exemption from regulations on debt collectors and the ability to print money. Private investors have thus been pushed to the margin of what has become the largest nonmortgage debt category in the United States; the federal government has over 90 percent of the market.

Income share agreements, or I.S.A.s, began as an experimental model of education funding. One of the first income share programs was designed in the 1970s with the help of the Nobel Prize-winning economist James Tobin at Yale. It was poorly structured in a number of ways — students signed on as a class and kept paying until the whole debt was gone, but wealthier graduates who were able to pay a large chunk at once could opt out — and it closed down (without full repayment) in 2001. One big problem with I.S.A.s is that there is no collateral to these loans. You can’t repossess a classics degree. And as Gary Becker, the University of Chicago neoliberal economist, once lamented, “courts have frowned on contracts which even indirectly suggest involuntary servitude.”

Purdue and a few other universities have come up with I.S.A. programs that could point the way forward. They assess different rates and repayment durations depending on the borrower’s major. If you’re a chemical engineering major at Purdue, you enjoy better terms than if you study English: Under its I.S.A. schedule, chemical engineers are expected to repay $33,000 at the rate of about 8.5 percent of their income for seven years and four months, while for English majors it’s almost 15 percent for nine years and eight months. But these university I.S.A.s are meant to supplement rather than replace student loans.

Now private capital is starting to find its way into I.S.A.s, through a handful of online computer science training programs. With names like Pathrise, Thinkful and the Lambda School, these “career accelerators” provide tech companies with certified coders and provide participants with a credential in months, not years. Students in these programs can pay by way of an I.S.A. that is financed and serviced by investors gathered under their own Silicon Valley-style names like Leif. By my estimate, the private I.S.A. sector has yet to reach 1 percent of the $100 billion-plus in annual higher-education lending, but it’s growing fast.

A company called Big League Advance has started lending to algorithmically approved minor-league baseball players; something similar might appeal to college athletes whose scholarships fail to cover all their costs. From there, it’s only a few steps before investors sets their sights on other reliable investments: Ivy League finance, Stanford biology, engineering at flagship state universities.

What’s the appeal of an I.S.A. over a regular student loan? From a capitalist’s perspective, the federal government has a weakness: It treats all borrowers the same. Borrowers face the same interest rates whether they are mediocre art students or valedictorians studying quantum computing at a top engineering school. But private I.S.A. lenders can skim the cream of students off the top.

The returns on higher-education loans are already high — new student-loan borrowers will be paying the Treasury 4.5 percent to 7 percent for the 2019-20 academic year — so private lenders can offer better terms to students who are the most reliable bets. And while it’s difficult to fit all but the bare necessities of college life under federal loans limits, promising students will be able to borrow enough with a private I.S.A. to simulate the worry-free college experience of their wealthy peers.

If you can convince investors you’re going to be rich for the rest of your life, why spend your college years poor? I.S.A.s bridge the gap. It’s hard to think up a better advertisement for free-market capitalism.

But I.S.A.s are premised on the idea of discriminating among individuals. Once the high-achieving poor and working-class students have been nabbed by I.S.A.s, the default rate for federal loans starts to rise, which means the interest rates for these loans have to go up to compensate. A two-tiered borrowing system emerges, and the public half degrades.

If I.S.A.s take off as a desirable funding source, it’s inevitable that they will begin to reshape childhood. Instead of just trying to build a résumé that appeals to admissions committees, students would spend their adolescence trying to build profiles that scan as successful to investors. Every child becomes his or her own start-up. I.S.A.s will no doubt protect their child-ranking algorithms as trade secrets, but if years of research on tech bias is any guide, we can expect they’ll perpetuate existing inequalities.

For students who are risky bets, rated as less than investment-grade, lenders can tweak repayment periods and terms until the algorithm approves. Computers can make practically infinite distinctions among potential borrowers, and there’s nothing to stop future applicants from optimizing themselves into anxiety and depression even worse than what we see now.

Welcome to the world of subprime children. This is the path we’re on, and it ends with teenagers being careful to always smile in front of their laptop cameras lest the I.S.A. algorithm find them uninvestably dour. The alternative is to reconsider education as a social good and make capitalists pay for it, not as an investment but via taxation. If we’re not careful, investors from Silicon Valley and beyond will reshape the country’s children in their own image.

Malcolm Harris (@BigMeanInternet) is the author of “Kids These Days: Human Capital and the Making of Millennials.”
Title: 🎓 Map: Cities in the South are being held back by student debt
Post by: RE on May 15, 2019, 03:32:13 PM
This is CFS.  There are more poor cities in Old Dixie.

RE

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-debt-cities-map-175110486.html

Map: Cities in the South are being held back by student debt
Aarthi Swaminathan
Finance Writer
Yahoo FinanceMay 15, 2019

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/09/11/20/500AEB4400000578-0-image-a-36_1536692542481.jpg)

There are more than a trillion dollars in outstanding student loans, affecting millions of Americans, and a new study by WalletHub details how borrowers in the South are feeling the pain more than most.

The study — which looked at 2,510 cities across the U.S. and divided the median student loan balance held by adult borrowers living in those cities by their median earnings — identified cities when residents were most and least indebted relative their salaries.

Thirteen of the bottom 20 cities were in the South (i.e., south of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi River). On the other end of the spectrum, 10 of the top 20 cities with the best debt-to-earnings ratio were in California.
(Graphic: David Foster)
View photos
(Graphic: David Foster)

"What's worrying is that overall, post-college debt is a huge financial burden to Americans,” WalletHub analyst Jill Gonzalez told Yahoo Finance. “High balances, combined with long payoff timelines and low earnings, make graduates delay other financial goals like owning a home or saving for retirement."
‘Trillion-dollar black hole’ caused by student debt

The hotly debated issue of student loans features a wide cast of characters from presidential candidates — who are calling for broad cancellations of debt — to economists who consider it a “micro” problem.

But with more borrowers going delinquent and defaulting on their loan repayments — as well as a gradual decay of existing loan forgiveness programs — the student loan crisis has created a “trillion-dollar black hole in our financial market” that has left people “drowning under the weight of this unprecedented burden,” former CFPB student loan ombudsman Seth Frotman told the Committee on Financial Services on Capitol Hill in March.

In the WalletHub study, the cities in the 99th percentile — those with borrowers who saw their student loans comprise of around 68% to 85% of their income — were at the highest levels in Sun City West in Arizona, followed by Green Valley in Arizona and Palatka in Florida.
Student debt has soared in the 21st century. (Graphic: David Foster/Yahoo Finance)
View photos
Student debt has soared in the 21st century. (Graphic: David Foster/Yahoo Finance)

The median student debt held by borrowers in those three cities was between $17,000 to $21,000, while their earnings were between $21,000 to $25,000, yielding a student debt-to-income ratio of more than 83%.

"The common thread among the 99th percentile was low median earnings for bachelor's degree holders, some even as low as $20,000 annually,” Gonzalez said. “This is why even cities with a lower amount of debt such as Forest Park, GA or Lexington, NC still manage to have a student debt to median earnings ratio around 75%.”
What the top cities have in common

Conversely, cities in the top percentile saw a student debt-to-earnings between 15% at the lowest end and 21%.
Title: 🎓 Philanthropist Robert F. Smith speaks at Morehouse College graduation.
Post by: RE on May 20, 2019, 12:42:06 AM
Let's see... Student Debt is around $1T.  So if you got 1000 Billionaires to contribute $1B Each you could solve the problem!  lol.  According to Forbes, there are only 540 Billionaires in the FSoA, and I doubt Chinese Billionaires will contribute to solve this problem.

Nice gesture though.

RE

https://deadline.com/2019/05/billionaire-producer-robert-f-smith-vows-to-pay-off-morehouse-grads-debt-1202618558/

May 19, 2019 6:20pm

Philanthropist Robert F. Smith speaks at Morehouse College graduation. (Credit: YouTube)   
(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/robert-f-smith-morehouse-graduation.jpg?w=630&h=420&crop=1)
Philanthropist Robert F. Smith delivered a life-changing commencement speech Sunday at Morehouse College in Atlanta.

The billionaire businessman, who received an honorary degree from the historically black school, surprised the nearly 400 graduating seniors by announcing his family would provide a grant to pay off student debt for the entire Class of 2019.

“On behalf of the eight generations of my family who have been in this country, we’re gonna put a little fuel in your bus,” Smith said in a video posted on social media.

“This is my class,” he added, “and I know my class will pay this forward.”

The gift to the private, all-male school is said to be worth about $40 million. It comes in addition to a $1.5 million donation Smith gave Morehouse earlier this year for scholarships and a new park.

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Some students told the Atlanta Journal Constitution they were graduating with up to $90,000 in debt.

Smith is a Cornell grad, and has an MBA from Columbia University. He founded Vista Equity Partners, a software and technology investment firm, which has $46 billion in assets, according to its website.

He is the richest African-American in the United States, with a net worth of $5 billion, according to Forbes. This year he ranks #355 on the Forbes Billionaires List of the world’s richest people.

Smith has Hollywood ties as well after investing in Hidden Empire Film Group — which is run by Deon Taylor and Roxanne Avent. The group’s recent releases include Meet the Blacks (2016), Traffik (2018), and The Intruder, a psychological thriller released on May 3. The film stars Meagan Good, Michael Ealy, and Dennis Quaid. To date, it has grossed $28 million domestically.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: K-Dog on May 20, 2019, 12:47:13 AM
Quote
we’re gonna put a little fuel in your bus

 :aola: :multiplespotting: :hello: :wav:
Title: 🎓People are fleeing the US to keep from paying off their student loans
Post by: RE on June 01, 2019, 12:14:38 AM
https://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-high-people-are-fleeing-the-country-2019-5 (https://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-high-people-are-fleeing-the-country-2019-5)

People are fleeing the US to keep from paying off their student loans
Allana Akhtar

(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cf140cc11e2056af840956b-1536-1152.jpg)
India Painted Elephant Shutterstock / ostill

    Some student-loan borrowers are leaving the US to keep from paying off their debt, according to CNBC.
    The federal government can't garnish wages for borrowers working abroad. Yet the loans do not go away, and they are likely to balloon after late fees and interest.
    Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

Some student-loan borrowers have fled the US to keep from paying their loans, according to a report on CNBC.

One borrower told CNBC he relocated to India after failing to find a well-paying job after college. There, he found the cost of living much cheaper than in Colorado. While there isn't data surrounding how many borrowers have gone abroad to avoid paying off debt, CNBC observed Facebook groups and Reddit channels where people described fleeing the US over the student-debt crisis.

The federal government can garnish wages and tax refunds for borrowers working in the US but not for those working abroad. The debt does not go away, however, and typically would increase quickly with compound interest and late fees. Borrowers who reenter the US and continue not to make payments could be sued, according to Joshua Cohen, a lawyer specializing in student-loan debt.

Americans who stick around are struggling to pay off their loans. Student-loan debt has the highest 90-day delinquency rate of all other household debt, like mortgage and auto loans, according to Bloomberg. Some economists say nearly 40% of borrowers could default on their loans by 2023.

Solutions to student debt are likely to be at the forefront of the 2020 presidential race. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, has offered a plan to eliminate student debt for 42 million Americans, funded by taxing billionaires.

One borrower who fled to Japan told CNBC she worked multiple jobs to pay off her loans but still could not afford health insurance. "I wish I could come back to America and not be scared," she said.
Title: 🎓 At HBCUs, crushing student loan debt is a symptom of even bigger problems
Post by: RE on June 09, 2019, 05:06:54 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/hbcus-crushing-student-loan-debt-symptom-even-bigger-problems-n1014171 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/hbcus-crushing-student-loan-debt-symptom-even-bigger-problems-n1014171)

At HBCUs, crushing student loan debt is a symptom of even bigger problems

(https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2019_23/2887616/190607-hbcus-paul-quinn-college-main-kh_d3f72a464c0020b5a6643c5a84eceb65.fit-2000w.jpg)
Sonny Ross / for NBC News

“When these institutions were created they weren't created on equal footing with historically white institutions,” one expert said.
Illustration of hand pouring change into a cracked piggy bank shaped like a Paul Quinn College building. A group of college graduates stand on the lawn.
Sonny Ross / for NBC News
June 9, 2019, 8:10 AM AKDT
By Dartunorro Clark

When Michael Sorrell became president of Paul Quinn College 12 years ago, he assessed the dire situation his school was in and made a bold choice: No more football.

“I mean, we're in Texas. We're an HBCU in Texas,” Sorrell said. “I got a little flak for that, OK?”

But to him, eliminating the program was the only way the historically black college in Dallas, which was founded in 1872 by a group of preachers from the African Methodist Episcopal Church to educate freed slaves and their children, could get back on track.

Football had cost the school roughly $600,000 to $1 million a year, he said, and scholarships went mainly to the players. Meanwhile, other students struggled, faculty and staff members were leaving, and buildings had fallen into disrepair.

"We were roughly 18 months to 24 months away from closing. We had financial problems. We had academic problems. We had morale problems, and it was the prototypical scenario for an institution that had been struggling for a long time and the end of the road was coming,” he told NBC News in a phone interview.

The challenges Paul Quinn College faced are not unique, experts said, even if its solution was one of a kind.

Last month, when billionaire philanthropist Robert Smith thrust historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) into the national spotlight by pledging to eliminate up to $40 million in student loans for Morehouse College's almost 400 graduates, his gift was heralded as both historic and likely life-changing for those students.

But student loan debt is merely a symptom of a systemic problem that dates back to the schools' beginnings, according to Marybeth Gasman, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and an expert on HBCUs.

“When these institutions were created they weren't created on equal footing with historically white institutions,” she said. “So what happens is basically you end up with a situation where the majority (white) institutions continue to get wealthier because wealth begets wealth, and the HBCUs are behind.”
Philanthropist Robert Smith pledges to clear student debt of Morehouse college grads
May 20, 201901:30

HBCUs were founded and subsidized by states, the federal government, philanthropists or churches to educate black Americans who were barred from attending majority-white colleges. But in recent years, financial woes, among other issues, have forced a number of the schools to the brink of closure or put their accreditation at risk. And, lacking large endowments for generous scholarships compared to many non-HBCUs, much of the burden can fall on the students to depend on substantial loans to make up gaps in aid.

Gasman said that more than 70 percent of those who attend HBCUs rely on federal Pell Grants, which is aid for students who demonstrate financial need. But for these students, there's usually still a gap between the Pell Grant money and the aid the school offers — which is where loans come in.

Student borrowers owe close to $1.5 trillion in student loan debt nationwide. However, when race is factored in, black college graduates owe, on average, $7,400 more than their white peers, and that number is expected to more than triple to $25,000 in the next few years, according to the Brookings Institution, a Washington-based think tank.

A 2016 United Negro College Fund (UNCF) report also found that a higher percentage of students at HBCUs — 80 percent — used federal loans to pay for college compared to 55 percent of students not attending an HBCU. It also found that a higher percentage of students — 12 percent — at HBCUs combine federal, state and private loans to finance their education, compared to 8 percent of non-HBCU students.

HBCU students also borrow more money and are more likely to tap into unsubsidized federal loans and rely on their parents to also take out loans, according to Gasman.
President Michael Sorrell of Paul Quinn College poses with students in Dallas, Texas on May 4, 2019.Roberto Hernandez / Paul Quinn College

“And so if we could get more of an investment in HBCUs, they could have more institutional aid,” Gasman said, referring to federal and state funding inequities.

Advocates say a concerted effort from lawmakers is needed to ensure HBCUs get equal and consistent access to federal funds — though being so reliant on government dollars has its pitfalls.

Since the Higher Education Act of 1965, HBCUs have received funding from the federal government — called Title III funding — to, in part, make up for past discrimination in higher education. States also provide funding to some of these institutions. However, those sources of funding have not been steady because of unequal funding in state budgets and largely stagnant funding at the federal level.

Democratic Sens. Kamala Harris of California, who attended historically black Howard University, and Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts have proposed plans to boost HBCU funding on the 2020 campaign trail. Warren has one of the boldest, proposing an unprecedented $50 billion investment in HBCUs.

Victor Santos, the director of government relations at the Thurgood Marshall College Fund, said that these plans are admirable, but HBCUs need a long-term funding solution.

Researchers from the UNCF raised those concerns in a report for the American Council on Education earlier this year in which they found that HBCUs are more dependent on federal, state and local dollars than their counterparts. For instance, those resources make up 54 percent of revenue at HBCUs compared to 38 percent at other colleges and universities. Because of this, the report warned, HBCUs are particularly “susceptible to economic downturns, state divestments from higher education, or policy changes.”

Santos said that one way the government could help HBCUs is to steer federal research contracts to many of these schools, which could pump big dollars into not only student aid but also the infrastructure of the school for long-term sustainability.

“So basically what we're doing right now with Title III is we're keeping the house clean on the outside. We're able to, basically, keep the doors open with this money but we need some money to help us build a stronger foundation,” he said.

“We need some research dollars that help us push off. Because once we get that, then we can start actually building new floors on the house. We can start adding new bedrooms. What Title III is doing is really keeping the lights on and keeping us going.”

Ivory Toldson, a professor at Howard University, agreed. He runs the group Quality Education for Minorities, which aims to address the disparity in research funding. He noted that Johns Hopkins University, for instance, received, more research funding than all HBCUs combined.

“We know that if HBCUs can build up their research apparatus they can not only get more money for their research and also lead to things like patents. But they could also contribute more knowledge to our society,” he said.
Paul Quinn College entrance sign.Roberto Hernandez / Paul Quinn College

At Paul Quinn College, 85 percent of its students rely on Pell Grants and 70 percent of students have zero expected family contributions, where the on-campus, full-time tuition is roughly $15,500 a year for a bachelor’s degree.

“They're taking out the loans because there's less money in their families and in their communities,” Sorrell, the college’s president, said. “So, part of the reason there's less money is that they've had to deal with systemic inequities for their entire lives.”

The school has had a six-figure surplus, Sorrell said, for most of his tenure, which has allowed the school to open new buildings, turn around its enrollment numbers and support its students and faculty. The football field is now an organic farm, and Sorrell said he has no plans to reinstate the program.

He said he’s now more focused on the academic and financial stability of the school.

“When you've given your heart and soul and time to an institution that is failing, you suffer great remorse and there's great sadness, but it doesn't mean that you give up, but you just breathe, you find another way,” he said.
Title: Re: 🎓 At HBCUs, crushing student loan debt is a symptom of even bigger problems
Post by: Surly1 on June 09, 2019, 06:35:45 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/hbcus-crushing-student-loan-debt-symptom-even-bigger-problems-n1014171 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/hbcus-crushing-student-loan-debt-symptom-even-bigger-problems-n1014171)

At HBCUs, crushing student loan debt is a symptom of even bigger problems

When Michael Sorrell became president of Paul Quinn College 12 years ago, he assessed the dire situation his school was in and made a bold choice: No more football.

“I mean, we're in Texas. We're an HBCU in Texas,” Sorrell said. “I got a little flak for that, OK?”

But to him, eliminating the program was the only way the historically black college in Dallas, which was founded in 1872 by a group of preachers from the African Methodist Episcopal Church to educate freed slaves and their children, could get back on track.

Football had cost the school roughly $600,000 to $1 million a year, he said, and scholarships went mainly to the players. Meanwhile, other students struggled, faculty and staff members were leaving, and buildings had fallen into disrepair.

"We were roughly 18 months to 24 months away from closing. //

“When you've given your heart and soul and time to an institution that is failing, you suffer great remorse and there's great sadness, but it doesn't mean that you give up, but you just breathe, you find another way,” he said.

I don't think any of us can imagine how much guts it takes for a college president to make such a decision, since he is going to have several decades worth of alumni crawling his frame. He's a hero.

I would suspect the he is at the leading edge of a contraction that will be more widespread in the next ten years. Collge football is an obscenity anyhow, and is a "keeping up with the Joneses" thing among college presidents and alum. It's gong to become increasingly unsupportable as sports schools continue to separate into haves and have-nots. Most SEC schools actually have better facilities than several NFL teams (thinking Oakland and Buffalo here) and operate professional style programs. The fact that student fees go to subsidize some part of this (when the schools are awash in $millions in TV money) is criminal.

Just another conduit scheme coming to an end, as the credential becomes increasingly less able to reward the pile of student debt that finances its acquisition, and people becomes increasingly less relevant to how people have to live their lives.

Title: 🎓 Bill would wipe out most of the country’s outstanding student loan debt
Post by: RE on June 14, 2019, 04:11:33 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/bill-would-cancel-most-of-the-countrys-outstanding-student-loan-debt.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/bill-would-cancel-most-of-the-countrys-outstanding-student-loan-debt.html)

Bill would wipe out most of the country’s outstanding student loan debt
Published 2 hours ago
Annie Nova
@AnnieReporter
   
Key Points

    Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren isn’t waiting for the election to push forward her proposal to erase the majority of the country’s outstanding student debt.
    The Massachusetts senator and Rep. James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) announced on Wednesday their plan to introduce legislation in the House and Senate to eliminate up to $50,000 in student loan debt for 42 million Americans.

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/105929807-1558619070690gettyimages-1144063543.jpeg?v=1559674916&w=740&h=464)
Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren gestures as she speaks during a campaign stop at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia on May 16, 2019.
Mandel Ngan | AFP | Getty Images

Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren isn’t waiting for the election to push forward her proposal to erase the majority of the country’s outstanding student debt.

The Massachusetts senator and Rep. James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) announced on Wednesday their plan to introduce legislation in the Senate and House to eliminate up to $50,000 in student loan debt for 42 million Americans.

“It’s time to decide: Are we going to be a country that only helps the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful, or are we going to be a country that invests in its future?” Warren said, in a statement.

Outstanding education debt in the U.S. is projected to swell to $2 trillion by 2022, surpassing credit card or auto debt levels. Today, the average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Nearly one-quarter of borrowers are in delinquency or default.

In a post on Medium in April, Warren introduced her campaign proposal to eliminate student debt. The details of the bill are likely to be similar.

Borrowers with household incomes under $100,000 would be eligible to have $50,000 of their student debt scrubbed.

People who earn between $100,000 and $250,000 would be eligible for less forgiveness. For example, Warren writes, “a person with household income of $130,000 gets $40,000 in cancellation, while a person with household income of $160,000 gets $30,000 in cancellation.”

More from Personal Finance:
Here’s how much income tax you’re paying to your state
A parent’s guide to helping their kid get into college
Michael Avenatti allegedly failed to file tax returns. That’s a bad idea

And those who earn more than $250,000 would not be eligible for any debt forgiveness.

In all, more than 95% of student loan borrowers would see at least some of their debt cancelled.

The plan would be funded with a 2% annual tax Warren proposes to levy on accumulations of wealth exceeding $50 million, with an additional 1% on wealth exceeding $1 billion.
watch now
VIDEO01:52
Senator Elizabeth Warren’s college plan would cost $1.25 trillion over 10 years

In a recent Politico/Morning Consult poll, 56% of registered voters said they support the Massachusetts senator’s proposal to wipe out $640 billion in outstanding education loans by raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans.

Just 27% of voters said they opposed the plan.

In an interview on CNN on Sunday, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders suggested he, too, would soon be putting forth a plan to forgive student loan debt.
Title: 🎓 Nobody Actually Knows What Forgiving Everyone’s Student Debt Would Cost
Post by: RE on June 25, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
https://slate.com/business/2019/06/student-debt-forgiveness-no-one-knows-what-it-would-cost.html

Nobody Actually Knows What Forgiving Everyone’s Student Debt Would Cost

By Jordan Weissmann
June 25, 201911:58 AM

(https://compote.slate.com/images/f608df1c-9e5d-455d-a390-bfa63ce78245.jpeg?width=780&height=520&rect=3875x2583&offset=0x0)

Nope, not even them.
Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images

As of now, three separate Democratic presidential candidates—Elizabeth Warren, Julián Castro, and Bernie Sanders—have released proposals to cancel vast quantities of America’s student debt. In doing so, they’ve taken an idea that once seemed like a fringe enthusiasm of the internet left and thrust it straight into the center of the White House race.

That makes now a good time to share an odd quirk about this topic that rarely if ever gets mentioned: Nobody really has any idea how much canceling all of the country’s student debt would cost.

I mean, somebody might. I imagine there could be some poor, Vitamin D–deficient creature locked deep inside the U.S. Department of Education guarding this secret knowledge. But I haven’t found them yet. Meanwhile, I have talked to economists, think tankers, and congressional staffers who all say the answer is still a mystery. “We spent a while thinking about if we could figure it out, and we just had no way,” Ben Miller, who heads up the higher education team at the Center for American Progress, told me. Adam Looney, a former U.S. Treasury economist now at Brookings who has long studied higher-ed finance, said much the same. “I agree that no one knows what it would cost,” he wrote in an email. Warren’s campaign tried to ballpark a price tag for her plan, but it was basically a guesstimate. According to one source I spoke with, the Congressional Budget Office believes that trying to calculate the figure would be “complicated.” In other words, Capitol Hill has no idea what a student debt jubilee would do to the budget, either.

Here’s the basic problem: In order to know how much student debt forgiveness would cost the government, you would need to know how much Washington actually expects to collect over time on its portfolio of outstanding loans. Bizarrely, the feds do not share that information. It publishes related figures. But there is no simple accounting statement that says, “We’ve already collected X dollars on these debts, and we expect to collect X more.”

Outsiders can’t reverse-engineer those numbers, either. Consider: The Department of Education currently has $1.16 trillion of direct loans on its books. In theory, it could collect more than that amount, or less. But how much more (or less) depends on the interest rates students pay, which repayment plans they choose, their remaining balances, how many borrowers eventually default, and how much debt the government will cancel at some point through the various forgiveness programs that already exist. Those details are not all publicly available; think tankers just don’t have enough pieces of the puzzle to complete the picture.

All of this might come as a surprise if you’ve read about how Washington sometimes makes a profit off student lending. But those estimates are based on how much the CBO thinks the government will make on new loans it issues over the coming decade, not the loans it already has on the books. When it comes to those, the government doesn’t really tell us much. The best we get is an annual report by the Department of Education that shows how much the value of its loan portfolio has gone up or down, but that doesn’t put a figure on what the whole thing is presently worth. Imagine if you could see that your 401(k) went up by $5,000 this year but had no way to figure out how much was actually in it. That’s more or less the conundrum education wonks who are interested in this issue are stuck dealing with.

All of this ambiguity can make it a little hard to debate the pros and cons of cancellation. After all, one of the big arguments against the idea is that it could be expensive, and there are other things the government might be better off doing with the money. But it’s possible that mass forgiveness would cost less than many suspect, since the government is already planning to wipe out a good deal of debt through different debt relief programs that are available to borrowers today, such as Public Service Loan Forgiveness. We just don’t really know.

There are some things about the economics of debt cancellation that we can more or less figure out. For instance, government surveys give us plenty of data on how much student debt different households owe and how much those Americans earn. As a result, it’s possible to say with some certainty that Elizabeth Warren’s plan, which caps forgiveness at $50,000 a person and lowers it for higher earners, would mostly help the middle class. At the same time, it’s pretty obvious that forgiving all debts, as Bernie Sanders has proposed, would give a disproportionate amount of help to lawyers and doctors with expensive professional degrees. In other words, we know enough for people to argue about it. “To be honest, the exact cost seems somewhat irrelevant given that I’m opposed to it on so many fronts,” Beth Akers, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, told me. “If it were good policy then I’d endorse it even without a solid price tag.” The people who do think it’s a good policy feel that way too.
Title: Re: Subprime Student Loans
Post by: K-Dog on June 25, 2019, 12:23:39 PM
It is only debt, don't fret.